What's your take on Broken Dreams: The Boeing 787

[merv]

Quite a story here by Aljazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/investigations/boeing787/default.html

Air New Zealand has started flying its Dreamliner as it left for Perth on Friday. Would you fly on it? Is this just a beat up story by unionists?

At the same time we saw the end of an era as the last Air NZ 747 was retired.

[mashman]

It's a plane. The best you can hope for is that it fulfills its function for long enough that it allows you to arrive safely at your destination.

[James Deuce]

I think flying twin engine aircraft on global long-haul flights is going to bite them in the arse, and I think a largely composite aircraft of this size is going to uncover some previously unknown material phenomenon much the same as the Comet 1 revealed the whole the mechanics of pressurised cabins and metal fatigue by killing lots of people. I wouldn't fly on one, but that would involve buying a ticket in the first place.

I'm sceptical of the claims made on both sides and I don't believe there's enough free-range information available about the structural failures Boeing have experienced on this aircraft for any casual observer, even a qualified one, to draw meaningful conclusions.

[AllanB]

As soon as I read Union I got bored.

[jonbuoy]

I'm sure you can find disgruntled workers everywhere. They do a lot of fatigue and overload testing on the airframes before they even get off the ground - simulating thousands of takes off and landings not to mention the computer simulation software they use in the design phase. Engines are tested to destruction.

Fly by wire running software version 1.00 would make me more nervous than the thought of a composite structure/engine failure :crazy:.

I've found I'm more apprehensive about starting and running an engine I've re-built than I would be about an engine someone else has. Despite the fact I put more care and attention to detail into it than a guy doing it every day would.

[pete376403]

Part of the fuselage is built by Kawasaki, at least that part will be ok

[R650R]

Haven't watched that one but there was a similar one out months ago that focused purely on the design flaw/ structural failures of the fuselage that all made sense.
You only have to look at the ongoing costly disaster the F35 fighter is to see it would be easy to have design issues in passenger planes too.
Engineers these days are too eager to push things out and update them later...

[James Deuce]

Fly by wire running software version 1.00 would make me more nervous than the thought of a composite structure/engine failure :crazy:.



Nah, version 1 took 20 years to develop and was designed in a triple redundant fashion with hydraulic backup. Version 3.5 was written on a cell phone and uses discarded Magnetti Marelli ECUs as processors and has absolutely no redundancy except a legal waiver form.

Bear in mind that airframes in airline acceptance testing have delaminated wing structures necessitating a complete halt to the product roll-out, delaying payments and almost bringing Boeing to its financial knees.

[Ocean1]

I'm sceptical of the claims made on both sides and I don't believe there's enough free-range information available about the structural failures Boeing have experienced on this aircraft for any casual observer, even a qualified one, to draw meaningful conclusions.

Pretty much like every other news story since the internet was invented.

[R650R]

This is the earlier story, actually 737 in that case, my bad. "On a Wing and a Prayer"
Interesting that both docos are by Al JEEzera a known CIA front news organisation...

http://www.aljazeera.com/video/americas/2010/12/2010121516520679770.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaWdEtANi-0

[Swoop]

Haven't watched that one but there was a similar one out months ago that focused purely on the design flaw/ structural failures of the fuselage that all made sense.
You only have to look at the ongoing costly disaster the F35 fighter is to see it would be easy to have design issues in passenger planes too.

The Lightning II.
Structural cracks of the bulkhead? Minor issue on the pre-production units. (How many entire airframes have had a "failure"?)

I'm more concerned about the engine systems. As the saying goes "if the engines have Pratt & Whitney on them, the seat had better have Martin-Baker on it"!

[SMOKEU]

After seeing how carbon fiber push bikes tend to fail in a spectacular fashion compared to more traditional materials such as aluminum, I guess the same could happen to an aircraft if it's stressed in a direction which it's not meant to be stressed in.

[imdying]

Composites in plans is pretty new stuff, they've only been doing it for 50-60 years. The 787 has probably had more iterations run through FEM than all previous models combined. It can take off and land on a single engine. Boeing have managed to keep those shit heap B52s running for twice their rated lifespan. I think we'll be fine.

[TheDemonLord]

I'd fly on it

[avgas]

Shortchanged engineering? No! never!
:killingme

and people ask why I don't want to engineer anymore. Who is John Galt?

FYI if you think the whole bidding for jobs is bullshit - take a deep look into the NZ Tender system for government projects.

[ellipsis]

...if man was supposed to fly, surely we would have been born covered in feathers...the earth is flat, why cant we just walk...these blokes brought us the Ural and the T34 but obviously this thing cant fly...yanks may only have crescents and big hammers in their tool kits, but the russkys only have rusty open enders and vodka in theirs.. it's all done with strings and mirrors...


<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SO-YLIj_xwo?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[scrivy]

Hmmmm...... weren't these same clever engineers the ones that said that bumblebees can't fly????? :facepalm:

I'd fuck it... errr... I mean fly on it..... we're all gunna die one day anyway...... :shutup:

[R650R]

After seeing how carbon fiber push bikes tend to fail in a spectacular fashion compared to more traditional materials such as aluminum, I guess the same could happen to an aircraft if it's stressed in a direction which it's not meant to be stressed in.

Yes. And while gliders and selected parts on other planes may have used composites its a different story on a mass produced airliner. We will have to wait and see how a carbon airframe lasts when exposed to constant temp extremes and long term exposure to jet fuel fumes etc.
The economics of carbon are all based around using less of it, a minimum amount. Any extra layers for safety/redundancy and you may as well use aluminium.

[imdying]

We will have to wait and see how a carbon airframe lasts when exposed to constant temp extremes and long term exposure to jet fuel fumes etc.Why? They've been doing it for many decades. Ask Air New Zealand if the flaps keep falling off their A320s.

[R650R]

Why? They've been doing it for many decades. Ask Air New Zealand if the flaps keep falling off their A320s.

Yes everyones aware of the regular drops of equipment on top of manukau shopping centre... and that's the just the ones we know about.

[Stylo]

As soon as the early part of the vid showed supposed 'passengers' using the emergency shuts on an obviously Boeing branded show pony 787 aircraft rather than from an actual airline as was inferred, I didn't bother watching the rest.

Credibility down the toilet in an instant.

[jonbuoy]

I think the biggest risk factor of flying is the operation of the aircraft - maintenance budgets, quality of pilots/ground crew.

[ellipsis]

...anal-ise all you fucking like..the biggest risk is waking up and leaving home...

[imdying]

Yes everyones aware of the regular drops of equipment on top of manukau shopping centre... and that's the just the ones we know about.Exactly... they've been flying a fleet of aircraft with carbon parts 6 times a day for years and they don't give any more trouble than anything that has come before them. Composites are all over aircraft and have been for years, the only change here is that the percentage of parts of a commercial jet is at its highest thus far, no big deal.

[unstuck]

Seatbelts in planes, now there is an idea I dont get. Only any good in turbulance I would have thought. Seatbelt wont do shit for your hairdo when you slam into the ground at a couple of hundred miles an hour. :yes:

[imdying]

<img src="http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7hfi1itlm1rzikako1_500.png" />

[Banditbandit]

It's a plane. The best you can hope for is that it fulfills its function for long enough that it allows you to arrive safely at your destination.

There's one very important thing to remember about flying - GRAVITY SUCKS ...


Part of the fuselage is built by Kawasaki, at least that part will be ok

Oh right - so that part will take off at high speed leaving the rest of the plane behind ... then crash and burn at the third turn ..


I think the biggest risk factor of flying is the operation of the aircraft - maintenance budgets, quality of pilots/ground crew.

Naaaa .. the biggest risk of flying is GRAVITY SUCKS

[mashman]

There's one very important thing to remember about flying - GRAVITY SUCKS ...

lol. Einstein said it blows.

[scrivy]

Oh right - so that part will take off at high speed leaving the rest of the plane behind ... then crash and burn at the third turn ..

But think of the wheelies....

[scrivy]

I was always under the impression that carbon fibre couldnt take freezing cycles...... well that musta been bullshite...

[imdying]

I was always under the impression that carbon fibre couldnt take freezing cycles...... well that musta been bullshite...Carbon is like most building materials, you can make a hash of it, or build something awesome. They have made planes out of wood, but some people can't even make a bookshelf that stays up for move than 5 minutes.

[avgas]

301297

spaceship!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Swoop]

Seatbelts in planes, now there is an idea I dont get.

The question is "why isn't there a parachute in each seat?". All you end up with is a crashed aircraft, a poxy life-vest and a seat cushion to float around the pacific ocean on. Surely a parachute is of more use than a cushion filled with other peoples' farts!