Labour leadership

[Stylo]

All over bar the shouting, Cunliffe's in serious trouble and things are looking to be very ugly ( uglier) within the Labour camp in the next few days ( weeks, months ).

He should have fallen on his sword on Saturday night given the shocking result , worst result in over 90 years for Labour, but, he hasn't and so the leadership challenge is about to kick off. It actually already has behind the scenes and probably started about about a year or so ago.

Who's gonna be the main contender and when will it happen. Robertson, Parker, Adern, Shearer , Little, Nash or .. ?

Or maybe Cunliffe should stay on, he's like the gift that keeps giving, that would probably be Key's preferred choice

[MisterD]

For my money, Kelvin Davis is their solution. Obviously a decent bloke with the leadership and organisational skills otherwise missing in the caucus unfortunately there are too many in that group with an over-inflated opinion of their skills and electability. Roberston? He's been aiming for it but what cred does an MP who lost the party vote in his electorate have?

From a right wing point of view, leaving Cunliffe in place with Roberston constantly white-anting him is perfect.

[haydes55]

How about a normal person. Labour claims to represent the poor and working class.... Yet they keep being represented by rich, old, white men. Exactly what a poor, young, mixed race family look up to........

[Motu]

Yeah, Kelvin Davis, but I don't think changing leaders forever is going to do much good, they are as lost as National was a few years back. Labour always stood for ''the working man'', but the working man has disappeared...he now works in IT and never gets his hands dirty. They need to find the significant section of NZ that needs them, and get the IT workers to develop a marketing plan.

[Oakie]

Well it won't be Andrew Little will it as he missed out getting in by one place on the list.

[R650R]

Labour always stood for ''the working man'', but the working man has disappeared...he now works in IT and never gets his hands dirty.

Sweet jesus you have to be joking. Although there are plenty of IT jobs we are still are producer nation, with lots of primary industry and also big exports of primary products/raw materials, logs, milk powder, produce etc...
A massive 70% of kiwis earn under $30k a year, I'm guessing their stacking shelves at the warehouse or paknsave not swapping out burnt hard drives...

Agree with last part, they do need to figure out who they want to represent now. And get some decent marketing. Look at National, scandal after scandal up to the wire but a clear cut marketing message even if they did infringe 8mile copyright. Thank god Winston is about to mop up the protest vote otherwise the greens would be ahead even more...

[HenryDorsetCase]

For my money, Kelvin Davis is their solution. Obviously a decent bloke with the leadership and organisational skills otherwise missing in the caucus unfortunately there are too many in that group with an over-inflated opinion of their skills and electability. Roberston? He's been aiming for it but what cred does an MP who lost the party vote in his electorate have?

From a right wing point of view, leaving Cunliffe in place with Roberston constantly white-anting him is perfect.

Good call. I've been mulling over a Grant Robertson/David Parker 1 -2 and deciding I like it. Having said that a very learned person I know said that labour is unelectable because they have no coherent message, and three masters. the "left" parties overseas are going to what we call greens and organising on environmental and social justice platforms. so basically green becomes red and moves to the centre while retaining that left vote. It is what National did a few years ago... from the right oozed into the centre. they didnt ahve to worry about anyone further right than them because, well, there wasnt anyone. except that blue/yellow crowd with one MP. say what you like about djonkey and that crew, they do play the game very well in this MMP environment.

[Hitcher]

It's not just Cunliffe. The whole Labour Party machine is fucked. Total failure requires significant change and quite a bit of pain too. The president and other presiding role holders should really start standing aside too for some new blood. Possibly new blood that has yet to be born.

[Motu]

we are still are producer nation,

A far cry from where we were at 30 years ago with factories turning out everything from clothes and shoes to cars and washing machines - factories full of workers in unions....and mostly Labour voters. Their voter base has gone, they just have to find the voter base with the numbers to get into power.

[Oscar]

It's not just Cunliffe. The whole Labour Party machine is fucked. Total failure requires significant change and quite a bit of pain too. The president and other presiding role holders should really start standing aside too for some new blood. Possibly new blood that has yet to be born.

I think it's beyond saving.
It has been hijacked by the social engineers and the rainbow wing and has very little left to offer the working man or woman.
Look at the number of seats won by Labour MP's who obviously connected with the electorate, but where Labour lost the party vote...

[sidecar bob]

How about a normal person. Labour claims to represent the poor and working class.... Yet they keep being represented by rich, old, white men.

Id rather have a smart well heeled self made millionare running the country, rather than a broken arse white trash loser that cant tie his own shoelaces.

[Oscar]

Id rather have a smart well heeled self made millonare running the country, rather than a broken arse white trash loser that cant tie his own shoelaces.

Harsh, but fair...:lol:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I think it's beyond saving.
It has been hijacked by the social engineers and the rainbow wing and has very little left to offer the working man or woman.
Look at the number of seats won by Labour MP's who obviously connected with the electorate, but where Labour lost the party vote...

the average working man or woman these days doesnt work in what might be viewed as traditional Labour occupations.... because those jobs don't exist anymore. So they are cleaners or data entry operators at the IRD or work in appalling service industry jobs in fast food places or whereever.

the interesting thing to me is that less than 20% of workers are unionised, yet the unions have a massively disproportionate control in the labour party. All because of their silly "Lets get David Shearer out" constitution.

The Nats don' have to do ANYTHING because until there is an actual opposition they can just cruise. jonkey is being all statesmanlike and gracious at present. But the slitted pupil and slithery tongue of the lizard person is just there and in about year two of this third term they will really start fucking things over. Two areas they have signalled: the RMA and (related) local gubblemunt.

so soon ALL our rivers will be full of cow shit. Undrinkable, unswimmable, unsuable. the profits are privatised, the costs are socialised.

So, you know, yay!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Id rather have a smart well heeled self made millonare running the country, rather than a broken arse white trash loser that cant tie his own shoelaces.

"broken arse white trash loser who can't tie his own shoelaces" does not describe either Cunliffe, Shearer, Goff, Helen Clark or any of their likely or potential successors.

Love is blind, they say, but hate is more so.

I would rather have someone who cares about people and our environment rather than some lizard-man who might not even be human who is only here to rape our economy to benefit a few of his rich mates.

See? it works both ways.

[Swoop]

... I would rather have someone who cares about people and our environment...

Quite true!
However liarbour cannot comprehend this approach. They are still stuck in the unionist mindset where the base of their support are the unwashed and unloved. Sadly this describes the green-ist hippys and those who were parasites on society - the perpetual university students who were unable to get a job after completing their batchelor of arts/basket-weaving, tofu blending, societal-expansionist, "qualification".
Best be heading off to the UN for a lifetime career in that field.

[sidecar bob]

"broken arse white trash loser who can't tie his own shoelaces" does not describe either Cunliffe, Shearer, Goff, Helen Clark or any of their likely or potential successors.

Love is blind, they say, but hate is more so.

I would rather have someone who cares about people and our environment rather than some lizard-man who might not even be human who is only here to rape our economy to benefit a few of his rich mates.

See? it works both ways.

Sorry, I got the impression he wanted a poor working class prime minister. That wouldnt be a real good look.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Sorry, I got the impression he wanted a poor working class prime minister. That wouldnt be a real good look.

I think we've only ever had one of those, and it was Norman Kirk.

[sidecar bob]

I think we've only ever had one of those, and it was Norman Kirk.

As I recall he was the one that thought it was a great idea to import thousands of Pacific Islanders for the employee shortage in South Auckland at the time.

[yokel]

He is a sorry left wing looser, plenty more were he come from.
only chance for labour is a female leader with balls

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/KSQzTKcUda0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[HenryDorsetCase]

As I recall he was the one that thought it was a great idea to import thousands of Pacific Islanders for the employee shortage in South Auckland at the time.

I have no idea - before my time. But clearly the man was a visionary because think how shit your rugby team would be with only white dudes in it.

[oldrider]

I think we've only ever had one of those, and it was Norman Kirk.

Yeah and didn't he turn out to be a rabid wife beater? ... News at the time! :mellow:

[Paul in NZ]

Yeah and didn't he turn out to be a rabid wife beater? ... News at the time! :mellow:

He had a rabid wife? I didnt think he was jewish...

[Voltaire]

Id rather have a smart well heeled self made millionare running the country, rather than a broken arse white trash loser that cant tie his own shoelaces.

Interesting how he made his millions.
http://archive.indymedia.org.nz/article/76097/john-keys-finance-credentials

I'm one of the 700 000 " could not be bothered getting of their arse to vote" types.:yawn:

[Banditbandit]

I think we've only ever had one of those, and it was Norman Kirk.

I think you will find that Michael Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and Walter Nash were all working class men ...

Robert Muldoon also came from what might be described as working class background ... (from a Staunch socialist family too ...)

[Oscar]

I think you will find that Michael Joseph Savage, Peter Fraser and Walter Nash were all working class men ...

Robert Muldoon also came from what might be described as working class background ... (from a Staunch socialist family too ...)

From what I know of key's background, it wasn't what you would call affluent.
State house boy, no?

[sidecar bob]

Interesting how he made his millions.
http://archive.indymedia.org.nz/article/76097/john-keys-finance-credentials


Out of shit most of us dont understand, but certainly not from drug dealing or protection rackets then.
I have no problem with that. I doubted it would be from flipping burgers or a lawn mowing round.

[trustme]

It may be called the ' independant media centre ' but it sure as hell is biased. I take about as much notice of that stuff as I do of Cam Slater & Whale oil , Bottom feeders pushing their own barrow
Pretty sure that there was an investigation into all those goings on, all dodgy as but JK came out clean . There was no direct link between him & the shonky shit. Possibly more good luck & fortuitous timing than good management as I recall.

Seems to me unbiased investigative journalism is dead in this country.

[HenryDorsetCase]

It may be called the ' independant media centre ' but it sure as hell is biased. I take about as much notice of that stuff as I do of Cam Slater & Whale oil , Bottom feeders pushing their own barrow
Pretty sure that there was an investigation into all those goings on, all dodgy as but JK came out clean . There was no direct link between him & the shonky shit. Possibly more good luck & fortuitous timing than good management as I recall.

Seems to me unbiased investigative journalism is dead in this country.

Nicky Hager wants a word with you.

[Banditbandit]

From what I know of key's background, it wasn't what you would call affluent.
State house boy, no?

A state house boy, yes - but he went straight to university and his first job was in business. More like Upwardly mobile lower middle class ...

[trustme]

Nicky Hager is exactly what I am on about. He published a book based around stolen emails & gave none of targets of his book the right of reply. Where is the balance in that .
Clark called him ' a sanctimonious little creep ' after corn gate .
I do not take him seriously, he is not an unbiased investigative journalist , he twists facts to suit whichever political barrow he is currently pushing.

[SPman]

Nicky Hager is exactly what I am on about. He published a book based around stolen emails & gave none of targets of his book the right of reply. Where is the balance in that .
Clark called him ' a sanctimonious little creep ' after corn gate .
I do not take him seriously, he is not an unbiased investigative journalist , he twists facts to suit whichever political barrow he is currently pushing.
Obviously don't know what an investigative journalist is about - 30 yrs of neocon politics have trained you well! If power is not upset, an investigative journalist hasn't done their job!

[Big Dog]

A state house boy, yes - but he went straight to university and his first job was in business. More like Upwardly mobile lower middle class ...

Aye, and in an era when the govt felt a free education was the best way to grow the economy. I wonder if he learned anything from that history?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Voltaire]

It may be called the ' independant media centre ' but it sure as hell is biased. I take about as much notice of that stuff as I do of Cam Slater & Whale oil , Bottom feeders pushing their own barrow
Pretty sure that there was an investigation into all those goings on, all dodgy as but JK came out clean . There was no direct link between him & the shonky shit. Possibly more good luck & fortuitous timing than good management as I recall.

Seems to me unbiased investigative journalism is dead in this country.

I did some investigating while on holiday and found this !!!!!
Frankly I was shocked, 8% spandex.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/IMG_0406_zps52abb8d3.jpg

[trustme]

Obviously don't know what an investigative journalist is about - 30 yrs of neocon politics have trained you well! If power is not upset, an investigative journalist hasn't done their job!

There is a difference between investigative journalism & a hatchet job. Ask Judith Collins , she got caught out by her own mendacity. Hager has little credibility with the general populace

[slofox]

My conspiracy theory:

Labour didn't really like Cunliffe much at all but they couldn't get rid of him easily. So. They already knew they were on a hiding to nothing in the recent election well before the event. So they made Cunliffe leader on the basis that he could be blamed for fucking up the electoral results. Ergo, they can now fire the shit out of him.

Good thinking.

[SPman]

. Hager has little credibility with the general populaceYes - NZ society is all to willing to shoot the messenger and ignore the message.......

[oldrider]

Yes - NZ society is all to willing to shoot the messenger and ignore the message.......

Three years is a very very long time politically and by then we might see just how fickle the NZ society can be! :banana: . :corn:

[Swoop]

Obviously don't know what an investigative journalist is about - 30 yrs of neocon politics have trained you well! If power is not upset, an investigative journalist hasn't done their job!
"Journalism" is about reporting the facts and letting the reader decide the outcome.
Anything else is simple manipulation.


Yes - NZ society is all to willing to shoot the messenger and ignore the message.......
So, shooting hagar is OK? I'll get ma' gun!
Someone should have informed me sooner.

[sidecar bob]

Yes - NZ society is all to willing to shoot the messenger and ignore the message.......

That is sometimes the outcome when the messenger is a sniveling fuckwit.

[trustme]

Atta boy Bob. Tell us what you really think . :clap: :clap:

Hager released the book timed to cause the max of damage to the National govt . The intent was political , journalism came a distant second

People saw through him , saw through his message , saw through Fat Boy.

There are issues raised that need to be investigated however, the timing was all wrong, it tainted the books credibility.

[Oakie]

Nicky Hager is exactly what I am on about. He published a book based around stolen emails & gave none of targets of his book the right of reply. Where is the balance in that .
Clark called him ' a sanctimonious little creep ' after corn gate .
I do not take him seriously, he is not an unbiased investigative journalist , he twists facts to suit whichever political barrow he is currently pushing.

I think he actually starts with a conclusion and then selects appropriate facts to support his conclusion.

[JimO]

How about a normal person. Labour claims to represent the poor and working class.... Yet they keep being represented by rich, old, white men. Exactly what a poor, young, mixed race family look up to........
nobody cares what young poor mixed race familys want

[RJC]

Atta boy Bob. Tell us what you really think . :clap: :clap:

Hager released the book timed to cause the max of damage to the National govt . The intent was political , journalism came a distant second

People saw through him , saw through his message , saw through Fat Boy.

There are issues raised that need to be investigated however, the timing was all wrong, it tainted the books credibility.



I think he timed it to make the most money from the oppourtunity.

[trustme]

Clearly I am more cynical than you

[puddytat]

Hager has little credibility with the general populace

Thats because most of them are rednecks......


When was his trial? I hadn't even heard that he'd been charged with anything yet by the Law or his targets.

[MisterD]

it tainted the books credibility.

That and the fact that even though we know there's a game of leaking to the press that all parties play, there was strangely no mention of the fact. No investigation into the Labour and Union staffers that blog at the Stranded, none of the communications between Labour-aligned people and Slater.

I'm perfectly prepared to believe that National were more cynical, better organised and "worse" in the way they played the game and used Slater and The Other KB, but because there was absolutely no mention of the other side, the book looks like the partisan hit-job it was.

[SPman]

Quite true!
However liarbour cannot comprehend this approach. They are still stuck in the unionist mindset where the base of their support are the unwashed and unloved. Sadly this describes the green-ist hippys and those who were parasites on society - the perpetual university students who were unable to get a job after completing their batchelor of arts/basket-weaving, tofu blending, societal-expansionist, "qualification".
Best be heading off to the UN for a lifetime career in that field.
You are a useless fucking brain dead arsehole, aren't you! :rolleyes:

[Oscar]

You are a useless fucking brain dead arsehole, aren't you! :rolleyes:

Shit, is he?
We'll nominate him for leader of the Labour Party.

He's gotta be an improvement on the incumbent...

[Banditbandit]

However liarbour cannot comprehend this approach. They are still stuck in the unionist mindset where the base of their support are the unwashed and unloved. Sadly this describes the green-ist hippys and those who were parasites on society - the perpetual university students who were unable to get a job after completing their batchelor of arts/basket-weaving, tofu blending, societal-expansionist, "qualification".
Best be heading off to the UN for a lifetime career in that field.

So - Labour and The Greens got 24.6 and 10.2 per cent respectively - so 34.8% of the voters are stuck in the unionist mindset where the base of their support are the unwashed and unloved and green-ist hippies and those who were parasites on society - the perpetual university students who were unable to get a job after completing their bachelor of arts/basket-weaving, tofu blending, societal-expansionist, "qualification".

That's a BIG call on your part ...

[HenryDorsetCase]

So - Labour and The Greens got 24.6 and 10.2 per cent respectively - so 34.8% of the voters are stuck in the unionist mindset where the base of their support are the unwashed and unloved and green-ist hippies and those who were parasites on society - the perpetual university students who were unable to get a job after completing their bachelor of arts/basket-weaving, tofu blending, societal-expansionist, "qualification".

That's a BIG call on your part ...

Is it like a major in basket weaving and a minor in tofu blending, so that you can put your tofu IN the baskets and sell it at the farmers market?

[Banditbandit]

Is it like a major in basket weaving and a minor in tofu blending, so that you can put your tofu IN the baskets and sell it at the farmers market?

Selling it is a capitalist activity and therefore a National party action ... Swoop's grate unwashed would ship it to sub-Saharan Africa as a token gesture of charity ...

[Swoop]

Swoop's grate unwashed would ship it to sub-Saharan Africa as a token gesture of charity ...

Charity? Fuck off! Those bastards must PAY for commodities! :rolleyes:





By the way, it's "great". "Grate" means to slice thinly.

[Swoop]

Shit, is he?
We'll nominate him for leader of the Labour Party.

I would relish the task.
One simple meeting of all Party executives + MP's and some violent explosions would be experienced...

[Stylo]

Cunliffe , to me, looks a puppet and doing what he's told. Be interested in how many phone calls he's made to Aunty Helen in the last few days.

Interesting too how we haven't heard from her recently as an 'outside observer' ... her comments would be interesting.

She must be the only friend he's got left

[sidecar bob]

You are a useless fucking brain dead arsehole, aren't you! :rolleyes:

Yeah!!! Name calling!! Now youre looking waaaay smarter than him!

[Woodman]

You are a useless fucking brain dead arsehole, aren't you! :rolleyes:

Considering the source, I would take this as a compliment.

[HenryDorsetCase]

So, how are we feeling about a Grant Robertson/Jacinda Ardern ticket?

[oldrider]

Why don't the unions form their own party?: https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/25083391/unions-back-cunliffe-despite-poor-result/

MMP was made for them! :niceone:

[HenryDorsetCase]

Why don't the unions form their own party?: https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/25083391/unions-back-cunliffe-despite-poor-result/

MMP was made for them! :niceone:

well they kind of did. In 1908.

the big issue is that the country has changed so much.... and unions represent <20% of workers now. Yet they hire and fire leaders of the labour party. And the gay demographic is a real one, and its another faction.

Shane Jones would have been a great leader, except that he did not and never would have union or gay support. But actual people loved him

My personal view is that the labour party is done. The greens will expand and further soften their fundy principles and will morph into the "social justice" side (i.e. Left) while retaining the mainstream environmental cred. The clear model is Ze Cherman Green party, and they have been stunningly successful. So much so that pretty much all the Yrpn Green parties are following suit.

National under MMP has clearly moved from the right wing (which are now mainstream), and pinched the good centrist labour policies, et viola, "the natural party of gubblemunt"

To a student of the political sciences (which I was, once, but now am not) it is fascinating.

If you have stapled your colours to a particular mast (particularly a red one) then it is disconcerting at best, disastrous at worst.

[Banditbandit]

Charity? Fuck off! Those bastards must PAY for commodities! :rolleyes:





By the way, it's "great". "Grate" means to slice thinly.

"Grate" was a bit of a pun - an attempt at a multi layered joke - it clearly "grated" with you.

No, I didn't expect charity from you - I was referring to the people you referred to as the great unwashed. Those greenie hippie freaks ..

[Banditbandit]

So, how are we feeling about a Grant Robertson/Jacinda Ardern ticket?

One would give you a blow job - both of them I'd be scared to ask for one ..

[HenryDorsetCase]

One would give you a blow job - both of them I'd be scared to ask for one ..

as if it matters. Had blow job = win.

If I close my eyes......

1BrTn16_0AY

also I just have to point out that the misogynistic and homophobic slant of your post, couple with your rabid communistic tendencies, reveals the true depth of the horror that is the Labour party in 2014. If you don't mind my saying.

[Ocean1]

Why don't the unions form their own party?: https://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/25083391/unions-back-cunliffe-despite-poor-result/

MMP was made for them! :niceone:


well they kind of did. In 1908.

the big issue is that the country has changed so much.... and unions represent <20% of workers now. Yet they hire and fire leaders of the labour party. And the gay demographic is a real one, and its another faction.

Shane Jones would have been a great leader, except that he did not and never would have union or gay support. But actual people loved him

My personal view is that the labour party is done. The greens will expand and further soften their fundy principles and will morph into the "social justice" side (i.e. Left) while retaining the mainstream environmental cred. The clear model is Ze Cherman Green party, and they have been stunningly successful. So much so that pretty much all the Yrpn Green parties are following suit.

National under MMP has clearly moved from the right wing (which are now mainstream), and pinched the good centrist labour policies, et viola, "the natural party of gubblemunt"

To a student of the political sciences (which I was, once, but now am not) it is fascinating.

If you have stapled your colours to a particular mast (particularly a red one) then it is disconcerting at best, disastrous at worst.

Yeah, pretty much.

A philosophy that doesn't work embedded into a political party that didn't work. National have supplanted Labour as the mainstream left, and good riddance to 'em.

[flashg]

Cunliffe resigned but will put his hat in the ring for another go WTF. The longer he stay's the more he helps National (that's good)

[caseye]

News Flash, He won't be back as Leader, ever, the country and his ex colleagues are aware he's poison to most ordinary New Zealanders, who know a fake when they see one.

[fridayflash]

nats have been through it too, english got the shove after he failed to deliver at election time. cuntlippes certainly wasnt the man for the job, looks like fancy boy grant robertson is a contender, with ardern as his wingman . i cant see how theyll get over the line in three years time to be honest :lol:

[flashg]

Not sure the country is ready for a gay prime minister. The islanders in NZ won't vote for him, they made that clear already

[Swoop]

News Flash, He won't be back as Leader, ever
The in-fighting continues on tonight's news. A real shame that he isn't staying on...

What is amazing, is the 1/3rd percentage (of total labour vote) of the unions, when electing a new leader.
If national had an open and clearly stated criteria, that farmers and also business owners held a large percentage of the voting process, the leftists' would be foaming at the mouth!
Quite a contrast in procedure really.

[oldrider]

One good thing about MMP is that all these little party factions and quangos can form their own little parties and stand on their own "principals"!

Then they can be independent and stop riding on the coat tails of things they don't believe in and focus on what they really stand for! :rolleyes:

Thats what Tariana Turia had the guts to do and I take my hat off to her, pity we didn't have more people like her in this country! :niceone:

[BMWST?]

Nicky Hager is exactly what I am on about. He published a book based around stolen emails & gave none of targets of his book the right of reply. Where is the balance in that .
Clark called him ' a sanctimonious little creep ' after corn gate .
I do not take him seriously, he is not an unbiased investigative journalist , he twists facts to suit whichever political barrow he is currently pushing.

he has never pretended to be unbiased.His vie provides some balance to the overall media noise

[Winston001]

Much as I enjoy KB opinions, on the subject of David Cunliffe and the Labour Party I pay regard to left wing commentators.

Chris Trotter says Cunliffe is dead. It must be painful for him to say that because he's been a hard left supporter since Otago university days.

Labour stalwart Dr Brian Edwards says that David Cunliffe did not have the common touch. In his words Cunliffe was theatrical, even Shakespearean in his oratory and very impressive but he didn't look people in the eye and talk to them. By contrast that is what John Key excels at.

I've done a lot of public speaking over the years and its no easy thing. In time I learnt to put down my notes and talk to the people in front of me. Cunliffe needed to do that.

On election night TV3 someone suggested that Cunliffe looked like he had four media minders and every time he fronted up, was acting a part but pulled in different directions. That was exactly my impression.

[Winston001]

Wut the heck, while I'm ranting...

David Cunliffe suffers from the same flaw as Judith Collins (whom I admire but...dunno) which is Hubris. Vanity. Absolute total self-belief. Never apologise never admit you were wrong.

I'll reserve judgment on Judith (a sideshow) but David Cunliffe lacks humility and that is a serious character flaw. Helen Clark looked the same but no - she fronted the 2008 loss immediately and resigned. Respect.

[Winston001]

My opinion:

Labour was the party of intellectuals, the forward thinkers, people who looked around them and wanted a flat society. Equality for all. No uber-rich and noone in poverty.

Those are still lofty and worthy ideals.

However today Labour stands for uplifting tiny minority interests, a political activism which might well be admired in Singapore, Malaysia, and India where such interests are totally ignored. But in New Zealand which is a benign tolerant society the battle has already been won.

Quite why David Cunliffe apologised for being a man is beyond my comprehension. There simply aren't Labour male voters who get that. Certainly on an intellectual level we can understand what he was saying but Labour voters don't parse clever stuff from their leader. Nor should they.

[oldrider]

Much as I enjoy KB opinions, on the subject of David Cunliffe and the Labour Party I pay regard to left wing commentators.

Chris Trotter says Cunliffe is dead. It must be painful for him to say that because he's been a hard left supporter since Otago university days.

Labour stalwart Dr Brian Edwards says that David Cunliffe did not have the common touch. In his words Cunliffe was theatrical, even Shakespearean in his oratory and very impressive but he didn't look people in the eye and talk to them. By contrast that is what John Key excels at.

I've done a lot of public speaking over the years and its no easy thing. In time I learnt to put down my notes and talk to the people in front of me. Cunliffe needed to do that.

On election night TV3 someone suggested that Cunliffe looked like he had four media minders and every time he fronted up, was acting a part but pulled in different directions. That was exactly my impression.


Wut the heck, while I'm ranting...

David Cunliffe suffers from the same flaw as Judith Collins (whom I admire but...dunno) which is Hubris. Vanity. Absolute total self-belief. Never apologise never admit you were wrong.

I'll reserve judgment on Judith (a sideshow) but David Cunliffe lacks humility and that is a serious character flaw. Helen Clark looked the same but no - she fronted the 2008 loss immediately and resigned. Respect.


My opinion:

Labour was the party of intellectuals, the forward thinkers, people who looked around them and wanted a flat society. Equality for all. No uber-rich and noone in poverty.

Those are still lofty and worthy ideals.

However today Labour stands for uplifting tiny minority interests, a political activism which might well be admired in Singapore, Malaysia, and India where such interests are totally ignored. But in New Zealand which is a benign tolerant society the battle has already been won.

Quite why David Cunliffe apologised for being a man is beyond my comprehension. There simply aren't Labour male voters who get that. Certainly on an intellectual level we can understand what he was saying but Labour voters don't parse clever stuff from their leader. Nor should they.

Or to put it mildly ... Caesar was ambitious!

[husaberg]

Simply put labour needs rebranding.
No one knows what makes it different what it's platform now actually is.
National and the right wing in general controls the media.
So getting a brand and a leader out there is going to be difficult.
I am not sure they have anyone who fits the bill and has charisma.

[yokel]

Wut the heck, while I'm ranting...

David Cunliffe suffers from the same flaw as Judith Collins (whom I admire but...dunno) which is Hubris. Vanity. Absolute total self-belief. Never apologise never admit you were wrong.

I'll reserve judgment on Judith (a sideshow) but David Cunliffe lacks humility and that is a serious character flaw. Helen Clark looked the same but no - she fronted the 2008 loss immediately and resigned. Respect.

Yes they do suffer from the same flaw that is they're both women,
Not like auntie Helen who had the balls to admit defeat

[husaberg]

Yes they do suffer from the same flaw that is they're both women,
Not like auntie Helen who had the balls to admit defeat

Cullen was also smart enough to know no one liked him.........

[Banditbandit]

Not sure the country is ready for a gay prime minister. The islanders in NZ won't vote for him, they made that clear already

Yeah .. and neither will the Nats, the Fundamentalist Christians, the homophobs ...

He's got minimal chance then ...

But I have a more general question .. many here did not vote Labour and never will vote Labour .. and do not want a Labour Prime Minister ...

So why the hell are you discussing who should be the leader of the Labour party - a party you do not want to win???

[Oakie]

But I have a more general question .. many here did not vote Labour and never will vote Labour .. and do not want a Labour Prime Minister ...

So why the hell are you discussing who should be the leader of the Labour party - a party you do not want to win???


Same reason an All Black supporter might discuss the makeup of the Aussie rugby team.

Why does it distress you that 'non-believers' are talking about the biggest political story in NZ at present? Labour's recent thrashing still a bit raw?

[AllanB]

Pre election he appoligised for everything - even being a man. Post election .......

[Oakie]

Pre election he appoligised for everything - even being a man. Post election .......

Said it before and I'll say it again (and I'm a Nat supporter) ... Cunliffe did OK for himself during the campaign. It was the Labour policies that let them down. Blame the message Labour ... not the messenger.

[Winston001]

Agreed. Cunliffe did better than expected. But his lack of humility and fake smiles made him seem untrustworthy.

Actually I don't think Labour's policies were bad but they had too many and couldn't explain them in detail. Chris Trotter says they should have had four big policy ideas and hammered them.

For example, Capital Gains Tax. On a good day with a fair wind I could be persuaded so long as it applied to everyone (like GST). But Labour (and Cunliffe) didn't actually know what they were proposing. Its ludicrous to come up with a new tax but not know how it will work.

All Labour needed to do was say we will use the Australian/German/Finland model and job done. We don't need to reinvent taxation wheels.

[MisterD]

But I have a more general question .. many here did not vote Labour and never will vote Labour .. and do not want a Labour Prime Minister ...

So why the hell are you discussing who should be the leader of the Labour party - a party you do not want to win???

Because either:
a) it's funny watching them fight amongst themselves
b) we do actually need a strong competent opposition to keep the government on its toes
c) the way our system works, it's kind of inevitable that we'll have a Labour PM in about six years times
d) all of the above.

[Banditbandit]

Same reason an All Black supporter might discuss the makeup of the Aussie rugby team.

Why does it distress you that 'non-believers' are talking about the biggest political story in NZ at present? Labour's recent thrashing still a bit raw?

Not raw at all - I haven't voted Labour for a long time ... (Last century some time ...) .. and the loss was very very predictable ...

I don't care whether non-believers discuss it at all .. I was just interested in why so many Nat supporters are discussing it - doesn't seem relevant to them at all .. and I would have thought that for Nat supporters, a weak Labour leader was the best option - means the Nats get re-elected easily ..



Because either:
a) it's funny watching them fight amongst themselves
b) we do actually need a strong competent opposition to keep the government on its toes
c) the way our system works, it's kind of inevitable that we'll have a Labour PM in about six years times
d) all of the above.

I like these answers .. yes, politics is a spectator sport .. yes we do need to keep the Government on it's toes - whichever the Government is ... yes, we MIGHT get a Labour-led Government in six years - but right now that's a BIG might ...

[Big Dog]

Sort of B.
Without a strong opposition the government cannot operate efficiently or effectively.


A bit like if the All Blacks took on an under 14 side.
There would be lots of touchdowns. At the end of time history would show they were victorious.
But would it be good to watch? Would it be sport still?
Would you see any excellent plays from the all blacks? Or would all the top plays be from the junior team?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[oldrider]

But I have a more general question .. many here did not vote Labour and never will vote Labour .. and do not want a Labour Prime Minister ...

So why the hell are you discussing who should be the leader of the Labour party - a party you do not want to win???

The same reason why all those proclaiming to be non religious, non christians etc never stop talking about religion! :eek: It's what they do! :shifty:

[HenryDorsetCase]

The same reason why all those proclaiming to be non religious, non christians etc never stop talking about religion! :eek: It's what they do! :shifty:

pointing and laughing works for both in my experience

[oldrider]

pointing and laughing works for both in my experience

OK -- my comment was intended as an observation not a defence or offence of either! :scratch:

[Oscar]

The same reason why all those proclaiming to be non religious, non christians etc never stop talking about religion! :eek: It's what they do! :shifty:

What is wrong with non-religious people speaking about religion?
Religion has shaped a lot of our society, good and bad.

[mashman]

What is wrong with non-religious people speaking about religion?
Religion has shaped a lot of our society, good and bad.

As the non-religious didn't vote for religion, they're not allowed to complain about religion.

[oldrider]

What is wrong with non-religious people speaking about religion?

Err --- Did I say there was? ... I simply observed that it's what they like to do! :rolleyes:

[awa355]

I see in todays news that Cunliffe's wife had run a Tweet thingy attacking all those within the Labour party who were against her 'man'. She had suggested that everyone within Labour who did not support Davy boy should resign from the party.

Jeez, doesn't she have a clue what democracy is about? :weep:

[Mo NZ]

I see in todays news that Cunliffe's wife had run a Tweet thingy attacking all those within the Labour party who were against her 'man'. She had suggested that everyone within Labour who did not support Davy boy should resign from the party.

Jeez, doesn't she have a clue what democracy is about? :weep:

She also said they are all past their used by date.
Of course he did not know about this.
But I recon he said Thanks Thweety.

[oldrider]

The only bad publicity is "no" publicity .... and look at all the publicity that this party of loosers is getting ... they have never had it so good! :blip:

[Oakie]

The only bad publicity is "no" publicity .... and look at all the publicity that this party of loosers is getting ... they have never had it so good! :blip:

Yep. Cunliffe may get some sympathy out of this.

[mashman]

I see in todays news that Cunliffe's wife had run a Tweet thingy attacking all those within the Labour party who were against her 'man'. She had suggested that everyone within Labour who did not support Davy boy should resign from the party.

Jeez, doesn't she have a clue what democracy is about? :weep:

She has a point. If you cannot keep the caucus together, then you're not communicating with each other or you're not finding a common ground. It takes two to tango and it looks as though there were more than 2. Likely all on the nat payroll.

[kb_SF1]

What leadership, a rudderless barge in a storm.

[Oakie]

I wonder if they have doomed themselves to eternal infighting because of the voting system they have to find a leader. Even the 'presidential' style campaigns to elect a leader must split the caucus to a certain extent so there will always be a significant number who aren't entirely behind the leader ... and just waiting to pounce.

[Motu]

That's always been the way to do it - Muldoon, Shipley....

[oldrider]

It's only news to the left wing Labour biased media ... nobody else gives a fuck! ... It's "NOT" news! :doh:

[Oscar]

It's only news to the left wing Labour biased media ... nobody else gives a fuck! ... It's "NOT" news! :doh:

Er - if you don't think it's news, turn the page or change the channel...

[oldrider]

Er - if you don't think it's news, turn the page or change the channel...

Err .. touché ... true but if it was ACT or any other (slightly right winged) party they would be quickly ridiculed and then totally ignored!

Labour have been headlines ever since their worst electoral thrashing ... they are history and should be treated with the ignore they have earned! :shifty:

[Oscar]

Err .. touché ... true but if it was ACT or any other (slightly right winged) party they would be quickly ridiculed and then totally ignored!

Labour have been headlines ever since their worst electoral thrashing ... they are history and should be treated with the ignore they have earned! :shifty:

More people voted for Legalise Marajuana than ACT.
Besides, Labour is the second party, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

[oldrider]

More people voted for Legalise Marajuana than ACT.
Besides, Labour is the second party, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

Whats to stop the rest of the non government parties forming an opposition coalition and pushing Labour aside and creating another leader of the opposition? :whistle:

[Oscar]

Whats to stop the rest of the non government parties forming an opposition coalition and pushing Labour aside and creating another leader of the opposition? :whistle:

You'd have to get them all to agree.


Good luck with that...

[Ocean1]

You'd have to get them all to agree.


Good luck with that...

No more difficult than getting the three conflicting ideologies within the Labour Party to agree on something Shirley.

[oldrider]

You'd have to get them all to agree.


Good luck with that...


No more difficult than getting the three conflicting ideologies within the Labour Party to agree on something Shirley.

Well it would show the Labour party and the electorate just how irrelevant Labour is and help them to disappear altogether! :eek:

That would have to be a worthwhile exercise! ... Wonder if the MMP rules allow that? :confused:

[Motu]

So you would like there to be just one party in New Zealand, and the only option being National? And ACT, so it will still be a democracy.

[Ocean1]

So you would like there to be just one party in New Zealand, and the only option being National? And ACT, so it will still be a democracy.

Well at least you'd have a pair about evenly split either side of centre rather than a herd of socialist wannabes all fighting over how much of our money they'll spend where.

[Banditbandit]

Well at least you'd have a pair about evenly split either side of centre rather than a herd of socialist wannabes all fighting over how much of our money they'll spend where.

All Governments argue about that ..

[oldrider]

So you would like there to be just one party in New Zealand, and the only option being National? And ACT, so it will still be a democracy.

Lost me ... I really don't know how you came to that conclusion! :scratch:

[Winston001]

So you would like there to be just one party in New Zealand, and the only option being National? And ACT, so it will still be a democracy.

Can't see that happening in New Zealand because we waste a lot of time and energy arguing among ourselves and seldom agree as a nation. What would be interesting to see is a Grand Coalition where Labour and National join to govern, taking the best from each party's policies.

Anyway just for interest, there are democracies where a dominant party holds the government benches for decades. There are other parties who sometimes join in coalition or stay in opposition but one main party gets the greatest support. In Washington DC the local state government has been held by the Democrats since 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant-party_system#Europe

[Swoop]

Gotta love Bob Jones' point of view!

Bob Jones: Labour's choice (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11345507)- nutters or normal.

There’s just one obvious candidate for the next party leader, but will the zealots be allowed to queer the pitch?
Currently Labour's best chance of victory in 2017 lies in National's total demise through their MPs all dying of laughter at Labour's leadership woes.

Seeking a fifth leader in six years has to be a world record for any democracy's main party. It counts, as the evidence is plain in democracies worldwide, that for all the talk of policies, a hugely decisive factor in electoral success lies in the competing leaders' respective imagery. Labour's leadership problems singularly emanate from their apeing their British counterpart and foolishly taking leader selection from those who know best, namely caucus, and placing it with the outside party membership factions.

Well, who belongs to centre-left political parties nowadays?

Nutters, agenda-driven zealots and diverse social misfits, all utterly ill-suited to judge normal people's sensitivities. By contrast, most MPs have their feet on the ground and are in tune with the public mood.



Thus today, the British Labour Party is hamstrung by an odd-looking, unpopular and widely ridiculed leader, just as occurred here with David Cunliffe. Why was Cunliffe so universally disliked, as indeed has now been openly reported by some frustrated Labour candidates?

Certainly everyone I discussed him with across the political divide expressed their disdain, yet many when pressed couldn't proffer reasons. They just didn't like him. He reminds me of the famous rhyme coined over three centuries ago in England, by a scholar angered at his tutor.

I do not like thee, Dr Fell,
the reason why I cannot tell,
but this I know, and know full well,
I do not like thee, Dr Fell.

When such an antagonistic sentiment is rife, policies become irrelevant and appearances all-important. And in that appearance respect Cunliffe, with a face resembling a turtle's, certainly drew a loser's hand. I can only assume he must have been a terribly wicked bugger in a previous life to be so punished in this one, not that I've any disrespect towards turtles, but they're best left in the wilderness, as Labour has now discovered.

To a lesser extent the same consideration disqualifies Harry Potter clone David Parker. He has the whiff of a train-spotting Boy Scout in his visage and will never be viewed by voters as Prime Minister material. So too Andrew Little, a decent bloke and more normal looking, to be sure, but with a wooden demeanour unlikely to attract public warmth.

His union background is a handicap in the contemporary world, middle New Zealand voters, whom Labour must win over, having a decided antipathy towards unionism.

The obvious choice is Grant Robertson who is by far the best debater, emanates warmth and - unusual for Labour leaders - looks normal, hand-in-hand with his deputy of choice, the photogenic and industrious Jacinda Ardern.

If Labour again reject the obvious candidate, which given their out-of-touch-with-the-public-sentiment character, they probably will, then I'm going to accord credibility to Dr Mujahid Kamran, vice-chancellor of Pakistan's largest university. In a recent book, Kamran claimed that absolutely everything happening everywhere is in fact CIA-controlled on behalf of international banking cabals. Nine-11 and al-Qaeda were CIA instigated, he insists.

A Massey University graduate, I imagine you're thinking, but surprisingly not so, Kamran having earned his doctorate in physics from Edinburgh University.

Presumably, therefore, Labour's leadership selection madness is all at the cunning string-pulling instigation of the CIA, to ensure their puppet Key keeps up the good work on behalf of his international banking paymasters. Then again, Labour's zealots knew that all along, at least judging by their hardcore lunatic blogging zealots.

The best that can be said about this state of affairs is that it provides wonderful spectator entertainment, even though it's at the price of a robust democracy. Still, like all troubles, time will sort it out.

[oldrider]

Labours continual American style leadership fiasco is simply non stop electioneering long after the election is over ... is that behaviour actually legal? :confused:

[Swoop]

Labours continual American style leadership fiasco is simply non stop electioneering long after the election is over ... is that behaviour actually legal? :confused:
Surely this is the beginning of the next election campaign? :scratch:




Interestingly, even Parker knows the Labourite-sect is madness personified.
"Like a cult and too red" - Parker on Labour
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11346117

:laugh:

[admenk]

Surely this is the beginning of the next election campaign? :scratch:

I can hardly wait :facepalm:

[oldrider]

Surely this is the beginning of the next election campaign? :scratch:




Interestingly, even Parker knows the Labourite-sect is madness personified.
"Like a cult and too red" - Parker on Labour
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11346117

:laugh:

[Quote] from that clip:[Quote]

Savage success
Its best election result was in 1938 when it won 55.8 per cent of the vote and secured 53 of Parliament's 80 seats under the leadership of Michael Joseph Savage.

Noteworthy is the fact that Savage was a monetary reformer and Labour needed the 10% reformer vote to get into office so they were lobbied to join Labour!

Labour made M.J. Savage leader and posted the other reformers into posts that rendered them useless and never followed through with all their policies promised.

Walter Nash became the Minister of finance and continued to drive orthodox monetary practices of tax and borrow themselves out of favour.

Labour have only ever proved themselves to be untrustworthy and that given the chance they will shit on you every time! ... Nothing has changed with Labour! :oi-grr:

[AllanB]

Labour? Are they still around?

[oneofsix]

Labour? Are they still around?

Yes, the Greens keep them going as a potential coalition partner until they can find a more reliable one.