Attitude Change

[placidfemme]

Hi all

I was just thinking about something, and know a few of you will disagree with me... and I hope I don't offened certain people (they will know who they are).

Firstly, let me just say I'm really bad with names, which is proberly a good thing in this case...

As most of you know, we had a great ride out to Wellsford and back yesterday, and on the ride was a father and daughter who ride together. And the daughter mentioned that she wanted a bigger bike (currently on a 250), now I was busy back and forth trying to tell everyone where we were heading next and the such, so I didn't catch the whole conversation, but this said daughter mentioned she wanted a bigger bike, which I'm assuming means over 600cc (as her fathers bike is bigger than 600cc and she's ridden his bike in the past and liked it).

Now given her age, and riding experience and body size... everyone (mostly) was trying to talk her out of the bigger bike, and is was really obvious to anyone sitting close by that no-one (not even her father) was going to talk her out of a bigger bike. But still everyone kept going on about her not being able to do it, and generally being rather negative about her getting a bigger bike.

At the time I stayed out the conversation because I didn't know the full story (Sam fulled me in when we got home) and I was thinking about it...

Maybe to a certain degree we need to change our attitudes...

We are all out there on our bikes because we obviously love biking... and judging by the amount of accidents posted and all that sort not all of us are perfect bikers... no-one is really...

And you see guys with numerous years road riding/racing experience who've been riding since they were knee high to a grasshopper... and even they have the meanest accidents or decision making from time to time and something bad happens.

Now in the case of this young lady, as stated, it was damn obvious that no-one was going to change her mind... and because everyone kept nagging at her, all that did was make her feel uncomfortable, looked down on and not a part of the "group" or "community" or whatever...

Now instead of judging her and making her feel like shit (and still go out there and buy the bigger bike) do you think that sometimes we need to change our attitudes... this is a fellow biker we're talking about...

Why not ask her what type of "bigger" bike she wants, and find someone with a similar bike to be her "mentor"

She's going to get it anyway... and instead of judging her for her choice, why not help her?

If you think she can't handle the bigger bike, why not teach her how to?

By all judging her, she is likley to not want to ride with us again (and I don't blame her... if everyone had ganged up on me and gave me a lecture for 20 minutes I wouldn't be running back to ride with them). And in this case, that means she will be getting a bigger bike, that she may or may not be able to handle, and will have to deal with on her own, with only her father to guide her... which is fine because no doubt he is a good rider...

But instead of the "I told you so" kinda attitude or "you can't handle it" attitude why not change that to a "ok your gonna do it anyway, let us help you stay alive" attitude instead?

*prepares myself for all the attacks*

[MSTRS]

Spose you're right. When I think about this, I come up with....There'd be very few of us on bikes at all if we listened to "advice"

[Wellyman]

We all want more power. its just something that happens.
WM

[Sniper]

Its a hard line between father and daughter. No-one but him really knows her capabilities. I would happily stay out of the way PF just because you dont want anything to be blamed on you

[bugjuice]

not sure if this is the best thing to discuss here, but my 2¢:

we weren't judging her at all. Watching her ride, she is a good rider, and obviously the cruiser she's on, isn't right for what she wants to ride like (getting your butt off the seat and going for the knee-down isn't a cruiser thing), but there's two simple things that would make it a really really bad idea.
1) the law. you cannot go breaking the law outside of your restrictions. You get fined to death (it goes on record too), and eventually, you could have your lisence taken away (from what I've heard).

2) insurance. You cannot obtain insurance outside your conditions of your lisence, no matter what. This means, if you have an accident, you could face paying outright for the bike with nothing to show for it. And that's if you have an 'off' on your own. If you hit anything, like another car etc, you have to fork out for that too. Plus, you'll get more fines from the law on top. And more to add to your record.

Personally, it's just not worth the risk for the sake of having a 250 for a year or so. There's still so much to learn, power isn't everything. In fact, power is nothing without control.

But, you can't force someone to do something. They have to learn for themselves, else you push them away when they most need you. So sometimes, you just have to accept that you've said your piece, and it's then their choice to make up the options.

[placidfemme]

Spose you're right. When I think about this, I come up with....There'd be very few of us on bikes at all if we listened to "advice"

Exactly... I want a 600 next, and people say to me "no get a 400 next and work your way up", a lot of bikers ride bikes they can't handle... and so we shouldn't be judging them but helping them... another dead biker is a black mark in our book... partly bad riding... party no support in being a better rider...

I know a mentor thing was kind of started... but I don't see the harm in experienced riders helping out the non-experienced riders... for example... me jumping on a 636... no doubt I wouldn't be able to handle it (not at this stage anyway)... but instead of giving me shit... why doesn't another more experienced 636 rider come to me and say "look I ride a 636, lets for a slow ride, and see how you ride" and the 636 rider can follow me, note my riding style and then give comments and lead for a while so I can lean the right lines and how to handle my new bike...

But I've just noticed the attitude sometimes really sucks...

[Waylander]

Its a hard line between father and daughter. No-one but him really knows her capabilities. I would happily stay out of the way PF just because you dont want anything to be blamed on you
Mate not even her dad knows her true capabilities. If she's been riding long enough to be able to get a bigger bike now (as in not on her restricted) then she should know her skills better than anyone else.

PF is right, rather than have her do it on her own and possibly stuff it up in a wreck somewhere, others should help her learn better.

[Vagabond]

Go for it!
You learn to cope with it.
Done.

[MSTRS]

The other thing that comes to mind is, when presented with your scenario, it brings out the 'parent' in the more experienced riders.

[Mr Skid]

I'm working my way down, -5hp and -25km/h top speed moving from a 250 to a 600.
There are bigger bikes that aren't supersport tupperware racers.

[crashe]

Placidfemme....

Just so that you know the said young lady has only just passed her restricted... and still has another 18 months to go before she gets her full.
Unless she does a course which will then bring it down to 12 months.

What we are suggesting is that she sells her Virago and buy a 250 sports bike... then she wil still be on her restricted and still within the law... and be able to go faster as that is what she seems to be wanting to do.
She will have so much more fun on a sportsbike...

A sportsbike will go a lot faster than the Virago.

What happens is she gets a bigger bike.... and crashes it into a car... (which we don't want to happen) She then has to pay out for the car and loose all that good money that she paid on her bike.
Cos riding a bike out of your license means no insurance coverage for her.

But at the end of the day it is her choice...
She is only 17 years old and is in a good job.

[placidfemme]

I wasn't aware she is only just on her restricted... But in general... I was just using her case as an example and not actually judging her or her family for her choice...

Watching her and you were all talking to her, from her point of view I could see she didn't look comfortable in the situation, everytime she tried to talk, 3 or 4 of you would cut in and she couldn't finish what she wanted to say, and I felt she was being picked on, and I'm guessing she felt the same...

I understand the law side of things, and insurance and what not... but not every biker has insurance anyway, and on KB there are a few people on learners and restricted that are riding bikes bigger than 250cc.

It's something that happens, and it will continue to happed, so instead of making her feel pushed out and judged and so forth, like you said it's her choice... so why not be supportive in the sense that she (or anyone else) knows that you don't think it's the best option, and then offer her a mentor or something...

[James Deuce]

But instead of the "I told you so" kinda attitude or "you can't handle it" attitude why not change that to a "ok your gonna do it anyway, let us help you stay alive" attitude instead?

*prepares myself for all the attacks*

Stop being silly. It's not an attack it's a debate that may get robust.
I took the approach I've made bold above with two guys who used to frequent this site, reasoning that they needed guidance rather than lectures.

One is dead. Brilliant rider, but balls to the wall everywhere.

One got badly fucked up and has decided not to ride again. This guy was actually really into the idea of mentoring as well, and listened and applied new skills immediately. I probably made him over confident.

Be prepared to accept the cost of making supportive statements to "immortal" young uns. They really do think that it won't happen to them because of their "superior" skills and reflexes. If you aren't prepared to live with guilt and remorse then don't say anything. If you are prepared to perform first aid and ring an ambulance and organise transport for their bikes post accident, then ride with them.

[Sniper]

Mate not even her dad knows her true capabilities. If she's been riding long enough to be able to get a bigger bike now (as in not on her restricted) then she should know her skills better than anyone else.



I understand that. But it might have been her dad who put her onto biking and is in the process of mentoring her. Its the same as doing Karate. You cannot practise for 2 weeks and then think to beat your sensei out of others advice. (Speaking from personal experience there)

[madboy]

The world is full of people who believe they are right. And if you firmly believe you are right, how can you be wrong? Some people accept debate, but some people get defensive and refer to rule one - they are right, how can they be wrong?

It's her decision what she rides, and she should be shown the respect that she, as an individual, deserves for making that decision. It's okay to express your opinion to her, as I am expressing my opinion now. But is your opinion, or mine for that matter, the correct one? No, they're just opinions.

BJ commented on insurance and license conditions. Valid points to those who care about insurance and license conditions. Many of us do, but equally many of us don't. Side note... it's 25 demerits and I think $400 per condition. >100 demerits inside 2 years = 3 months disq.

To me, I'm in the "don't care" category. I learnt on a 400, no tickets even though I never conformed to the license conditions. Luck? I moved up to the 636 after a year. Yep, I dropped the 636 in a rookie mistake, and yep I learnt from it - fortunately it was a very very minor drop. Yep, it's limits are above mine, but I like it, I can afford it, so I own it.

The biking community is full of people who ride bikes they can't possibly hope to ride to their limits. How many of us sportsbike riders actually get our knees down then drop rubber lines outta the corners before popping it up on one until we pull a stoppie for the next corner? (No comments WT/LB/Death please)

How do you determine when is a good time to upgrade? Is it when you can ride the nuts of your current bike? If so, most of use should be riding scooters. Is it when you can ride a big bike? Well pretty much all of us should be able to, we just tell ourselves that we can't. I'm sure I can ride a thou no problem. It's only when I twist the throttle that it'll be any different to my bike, and if I've got the self-control not to twist it too hard (which is the reason who I don't ride a thou) then where's the problem?

If she wants a bigger bike - my opinion is good on her.

[placidfemme]

Stop being silly. It's not an attack it's a debate that may get robust.
I took the approach I've made bold above with two guys who used to frequent this site, reasoning that they needed guidance rather than lectures.

One is dead. Brilliant rider, but balls to the wall everywhere.

One got badly fucked up and has decided not to ride again. This guy was actually really into the idea of mentoring as well, and listened and applied new skills immediately. I probably made him over confident.

Be prepared to accept the cost of making supportive statements to "immortal" young uns. They really do think that it won't happen to them because of their "superior" skills and reflexes. If you aren't prepared to live with guilt and remorse then don't say anything. If you are prepared to perform first aid and ring an ambulance and organise transport for their bikes post accident, then ride with them.

I understand what your saying, and the risk involved in mentoring and the such, but I still think it's a good idea... my skill level isn't good enough right now to mentor anyone... but I could imagine how they would feel, because in a way I do mentor Sam, and if anything heppened to her, I don't know if I'd ride again... but I'd rather be there to help her out then leave her to do it on her own, without any guidance.

I also know what you mean by the "immortal young uns". But a lot of your more experienced riders may or may not know that us "newbies" look up to you... just as an example... look at Bugjuice... all the newbies on the rides talk to him and want to ride with him and learn things off him... and because Bugjuice has a good attitude and is a safe rider... without realising it... he is passing those "good characteristics" on to those newbies who look up to him... and so with the young uns, just being supportive and guiding, they will learn to be safer better riders, just by following by example...

[James Deuce]

I understand what your saying, and the risk involved in mentoring and the such, but I still think it's a good idea...

I don't think you do actually. I don't think you want to hear it.

[Deano]

I was speaking to a biker a few weeks ago and asked how their bike was going, to which they replied "it is not fast enough".

I was gobsmacked - the bike in question is bloody fast and no offence to the person, but I don't think they can ride their current bike well enough, let alone get something faster. Bit of a worry really.

But at the end of the day, it's their choice.

[placidfemme]

I don't think you do actually. I don't think you want to hear it.

Just because you may have had some bad experiences I don't think thats a reason to not mentor people... you don't have to do it yourself, but others can... to be honest I don't really wanna hear it, sad stories of people dying and the such, is something that happens and I do feel for the unfortunate who have been hurt or killed, but that won't stop me from encouraging others to help out and be helped.

[Paul in NZ]

There is no such thing as a bike that is beyond your ability (with the possible exception of a pre twist grip veteran or some sort of steam powered thing)... Just don't ride the damn thing so fast. So the question is, could kill her self just as easily on a 250cc Virago as anything else?

Technical skills are one thing but the key element to survival is still risk assesment. Sadly, to be a good rider you have to be confident that you can manage the bike and sometimes in fact you need to be a little over confident. Most performance bikes (and cars) don't like tentative instruction.

Trouble is, accurate risk assesment comes with experience and youthfull people tend to be hopelessly over optomistic in assesing risk. Just like they don't like being told not to do something....

I found my own way into my own little cul de sac and I'm happy there. My bike suits me because I know myself and I know what would happen if I had twice as much power but to arrive at that point I went through a bit of skin, some $$ and did a lot of reading etc. There are no shortcuts.

If someone asks, I will offer an opinion (as you all know) but really it's up to the individual. You ask for input, you process the info and come to a decision. Simple.

Please don't ask me though, I'm likely to recommend a Guzzi...

[bugjuice]

I also know what you mean by the "immortal young uns". But a lot of your more experienced riders may or may not know that us "newbies" look up to you... just as an example... look at Bugjuice... all the newbies on the rides talk to him and want to ride with him and learn things off him... and because Bugjuice has a good attitude and is a safe rider... without realising it... he is passing those "good characteristics" on to those newbies who look up to him... and so with the young uns, just being supportive and guiding, they will learn to be safer better riders, just by following by example...
oh crap. does that mean people listen to me then..?? :crazy:

all I do is merely regurgitate what other people tell me and pass on what I've learnt myself so far. By the same token, I'm constantly learning myself. When I'm with other more experianced riders of this site and off the site, I'm continually watching them, and asking questions where I think I need to know something else. That gets filed in the long term noggin area (at the expense of porn), and it stays with me. If someone asks me, then I'll know that little bit more.

By no means do I consider myself an expert rider. I just enjoy riding, and enjoy teaching the things I know to others.

One experiance I know first hand, is going from a 250 to a 600. My bike before the 636 was my much loved CBR250RR. It was quick, and I had heaps of fun, and I learnt a shed load of stuff, and could have learnt more. But, I didn't know KB then, and I jumped onto the 636 and proceeded to shit myself for the next 6 months while I got to grips with the bike. I don't regret doing it, and I can't see why others can't, but you have to be ready to move on in power. There's no point thinking you want something bigger, if you can't handle corners and the like. And just cos you have a bigger/quicker bike, by no stretch of the imagination it means you have to use it. It was months before I twisted the throttle hard on the 636. And a cruiser is that - it cruises. Has, what ~30hp or so..?? The CBR has somewhere around ~40. Not a huge increase, but it's design is different, and it is a sprotsbike thru n thru. Not a speed demon by comparison to a 636, but it's faster than a Viagra. But that's going off point.

If you're happy with running the risks involved (and I know a few riders who do already), then it's on your head. May we have many awesome rides out of it. I just want to know that who ever the person in question is, knows the consiquences of what they are about to take on. Cos there's no ear from me when it turns tits up and they rat on about it. I'm always here to help tho, and I will (goes without saying), but don't be bitchin about it

i'm sure i'll edit this or forget something too. this has been written over 30 mins (of interruptions. bloody work), so hope it makes sense

[FROSTY]

PF- Im going to explain my attitude first so you see where Im coming from.
I have burried more freinds than you have had birthdays.A lot of them died by thinking they could ride better than they really could.
Anything I say therefore is with that firmly in my mind.
I would suggest that in the perfect world a lot of newer riders ride extremely well Its when it all turns pear shaped that experience kicks in.
Just in the time have been with KB I've seen newer riders do stuff and end up crashing where I have reacted differently and just kept riding.
On a bigger-therefore faster bike when it goes wrong it goes wrong faster and with much more severe concequences.-by that I mean whilst exploring the bikes capabilities.
Im far from the best rider in the world -(f I was its be "GO FROSTY GO not GO ROSSIE GO")
I wouldnt encourage anone on a 250 to leap onto a 600 untill they had at least the appropriate licence.
Had I been on the ride I would have offered the lady a ride on my lil spada -to give her a taste of what a "fast" 250 is capable of.
I would thugh suggest that its a case of not whats said more HOW its said thats important. Someone with 12 months riding under their belt hasn't got the cred someone with many years riding.

[Mr Skid]

Please don't ask me though, I'm likely to recommend a Guzzi...And that would be a bad thing? :confused:

[Str8 Jacket]

Well, this is quite interesting. Im gonna speak from my own experience. After writing of the GN very few people said much to me about it all. They knew that I knew I was wrong and that what happened happened as a result of being too "cocky". I used to say that the GN was too slow and it probably was however I was bought back to earth with a gigantic THUD when I crashed. I think that age and maturity definately have a factor in these sorts of issues. But when all is said and done I think it comes down to how someone reacts when things go bad. Some people aren't prepared to learn.
The people that did say negative things to me, including my family - they don't matter. At the end of the day I just had to suck it up and put it down to experience. I could have listened to friends and family and not hop on a bike again, but I didn't.
I have been lucky enough to be introduced to this site and as a consequence have met some great people that are more than willing to "mentor" me. I think mentoring is a great idea, but the mentoree (not a word I know) has to want the help and has to be willing to listen!

[James Deuce]

Just because you may have had some bad experiences I don't think thats a reason to not mentor people... you don't have to do it yourself, but others can... to be honest I don't really wanna hear it, sad stories of people dying and the such, is something that happens and I do feel for the unfortunate who have been hurt or killed, but that won't stop me from encouraging others to help out and be helped.

Nope. You didn't take the message I was putting out at all.

I haven't said I have stopped mentoring. I haven't said that you shouldn't do it either. I said don't take it on if you aren't 100% aware of the fact that you WILL fell like you killed someone if it goes wrong. It is more likely to go wrong in the type of case that you are discussing because the type of person we are discussing only learns from their own experiences. One day they will listen to you. Right now they won't and don't think you have anything to add, because they already know it all.

Advice is free. No one places the same value on information or property they received for free, compared to something they earned. It is a rare newbie who takes on training or advice for any reason than accelerating their progress through the licensing process.

[Yokai]

(Inflation)

It seems that the young lady is a reasonable rider. However, being on a restricted and riding outside of that and getting caught is gonna be HUGE for her. I would encourage her to trade up to a sportier 250 (maybe a CBR or something) and possibly get a 600 for track... Then she can learn to handle the 600 at WAY fast speeds on the track and use the 250 on the roads.

There are a lot of 250s that are nice and powerful and
It would also give the added benefit of learning that the road and the track are different places with different riding styles and speeds....

[placidfemme]

I have been lucky enough to be introduced to this site and as a consequence have met some great people that are more than willing to "mentor" me. I think mentoring is a great idea, but the mentoree (not a word I know) has to want the help and has to be willing to listen!

I fully agree with you. The mentoree (you created a new word lol) has to want the help first. And really, most people given the oppertunity to be helped, would accept it. I know that when I first started riding (and when I finally get my bigger bike) if anyone offered to show me the ropes... give me tips, and practical experience I wouldn't be turning it down...

But the main topic of the thread, wasn't meant to be soley about this person and her father. It was just an example of "we know better, do as I say" kind of attitude as opposed to a "ok we'll help" scenario.

A lot people as mentioned choose to ride bigger bikes while restricted, and even more go the full way, get the full license and then upgrade... but just because they've been riding long enough to jump through all the legal hoops... doesn't nessesarily (sp) mean they can handle the bigger bike... generally speaking...

I just think sometimes that we (people in general) believe we know it all, and in good intentions (sometimes) say things to try to help people do or make the right decisons, but sometimes we need to take a step back and think of a better way to make better riders instead of bullying (I know bullying wasn't happening in this instance... but you know what I mean) people into what we believe is correct...

[James Deuce]

You can't help people if they don't ask for it.

[Beemer]

I would be the last person in the world qualified to offer advice, but I'd like to share my experience when I began riding. I got my learner's licence and then went shopping for a bike. I knew no one with a bike, nor had I become involved with WIMA at that stage. I went into WMCC and a salesman (who shall remain nameless, but hasn't worked there for a long time now) convinced me the RG150 was perfect. I put a deposit on it without even so much as sitting on it - he never offered to wheel it out from the crush of bikes it was trapped in and I was too embarrassed to ask - and of course I had only just learned the basics so was too scared to take it for a test ride. They delivered it and then I found I could only just touch the ground with tiptoes! I was petrified, but really wanted to learn to ride, so I would wheel it out to the gate (I thought you were a wussy if you got on while it was on the side stand!), swing my leg over and putter off around the block. I fell off the very first time and the bike sat in the garage for weeks after that, until I met Alan Kirk. He came into work and saw the photo of my bike on the wall by my desk. He said "nice bike, is it yours?" and we got talking. I confessed I was scared of riding it, so he and a friend would come out to my place every weekend and take me out for riding lessons. He said I had two choices, learn to handle the bike or have an expensive garage ornament! My confidence was slowly increasing so he told me to join WIMA. That was the second stroke of luck, they were all so helpful (Lynne and Andrew Templeton had a lot to do with the Wellington branch at that time) and gave me some options, such as selling the RG and buying a GN, or going back to WMCC to see if the bike could be adjusted to suit my height (or lack of!). I did that and initially spoke to Steve Dundon, who told me that there were some people who just shouldn't be riding! Nice one! I later spoke to Garry Gill who said he would get the bike lowered for a small fee and the difference that made was incredible. All of a sudden I could ride and I was starting to enjoy it!

I had that bike for four years and really felt comfortable on it. It wasn't too powerful for me and I really honed my riding skills on it. I moved up to a 650 but it wasn't the power that scared me, it was the height and weight difference, which is why I am now on the Goose.

It's highly likely this girl doesn't really know what she wants to move up to when she is legally able to, but perhaps she just likes the big sportsbikes. She may ride one and not like it, or she may turn out to be a very good and safe rider on a very powerful bike. At 17 she probably has a lot of confidence (not a bad thing) and the more she is told she can't or shouldn't do something, the more attractive it becomes.

Madboy has made some very good points there, just because she wants a bigger bike, it doesn't mean she wants to ride like a racer. She may just like the power, the handling, the look - all sorts of things attract us to different bikes and just because we may never have the skills to ride it to its limit, should we never buy more powerful bikes? I have a Nikon F5 camera, it's a real professional model that has many features I've never used in the seven years I've had it - but I bought it because it was one of the most rugged cameras on the market and it has never let me down. Sure, a cheaper camera may do all I need, but the F5 can cope with dusty rally roads without jamming - perhaps this girl wants the motorcycle equivalent?

[Ixion]

What Mr Frosty says.

Most riders, after 6 months on a 250 (maybe even less) can RIDE a 600 OK . Incidentally, I guess that when you're all saying 600 you mean a race replica. Something like a kawasaki W650 or an 800cc crusier is another matter altogether.

BUT - it's not riding happily along all sweet that's the test. It's when it all goes lavender, and you don't have the experience of something similar ALMOST happening in the past.

Yeah, I know, "I just won't twist the throttle too much".

But it's not just about straight line speed. In reality , on a straight road, even a learner can probably do 250kph reasonably safely.

Consider an example. On a 250 (except maybe a two smoker), you can bang the throttle wide open as you exit a corner. No problems.

On a 600RRZXR race replica, you can do that too."Oh this riding a 600 is dead easy" .Until one day you hit a bumpy bit on the exit. And the bike's already way front end light cos of all that power. And the front starts to shake. Oops, we're heading to tank slapper land here folks.

How many of the people saying "Oh I can handle a 600" have had the experience of riding out a tank slapper ? Or for that matter having the rear wheel step out badly mid corner? Or having the whole beast get airborne coming over a hill crest ? Heading towards a corner - can't turn in midair (as I discovered years ago!). Or even just the ubiquitous gravel in mid corner.

On a 250 even a GXRRR , you don't get that sort of thing happening (or it's very rare , anyway). On a 400 it may get a bit twitchy. But not too bad and the rider can probably deal with it. And afterwards think "oo--eer that felt a bit nasty - maybe I better be a bit careful how I xxxx". So when they move up to a 600 or 1000 - they've had some experience of "near nasty". And learnt what works when it gets scarey , and what doesn't

Nothing but time in the saddle can bring you that . And a mentor doesn't help too much , cos it's not the sort of stuff that happens .Most of the "mentor" stuff I see talked about is really just "I'd like someone to show me how to go faster". Which isn't really the right approach IMHO.

Of course, there will be people who jump on a 600RR as a first bike, and don't ever get into trouble. Maybe they're lucky, maybe they're naturals. Comes down to how dangerously you want to live.

Experience is not measured in how many k you've ridden . Or how fast you've gone. It's measured in the number of stains on your underwear.

Difference between a novice on a 250 and a novice on a 600 is the 250 rider the stains are brown and wash out. The 600 rider, the stains aren't brown they're red , and the morgue attendant burns the underwear.

Until you've got the underwear proof that you've "been there, done that" , then I humbly suggest that it's not time to move up. Every poor sod of a rider who the cops scrape off the road thought he or she could handle it.

Granted , I'm not highly hung up on the "it's the law" bit, or some magical number of months. It really is down to experience. Once a rider can say , Yes I've had this happen, and that , and learnt to deal with them" , then they're ready for a bigger bike.

Personally, after 40 years , I will probably never own a 1000 race replica, because I don't think I will ever be ready for it. I can scare myself silly with 50 bhp, I don't like to think what the same experience packing 150bhp would be like. Other people can handle it. The proof is on their underwear.

[Motu]

There is very much a ''Holier Than Thou'' attitude on this site,sad to see it extend to real life.....but I guess people feel a need to put forward their new found experiance and ''tell'' others how to run their life.They should sort their own act out first.

[The Stranger]

Ok wasn't going to get involved here but I can't leave PF to do all the work, though obviously doing a sterling job.

Sure the pupil must be ready or the teacher will not appear.
Sometimes people are too shy to ask and/or it may not even have occurred as an option (speaking generally here) so an offer can not hurt.
LB has made an offer (different thread) which will probably be accepted.

[The Stranger]

Nope. You didn't take the message I was putting out at all.

I haven't said I have stopped mentoring. I haven't said that you shouldn't do it either. I said don't take it on if you aren't 100% aware of the fact that you WILL fell like you killed someone if it goes wrong. It is more likely to go wrong in the type of case that you are discussing because the type of person we are discussing only learns from their own experiences. One day they will listen to you. Right now they won't and don't think you have anything to add, because they already know it all.

Advice is free. No one places the same value on information or property they received for free, compared to something they earned. It is a rare newbie who takes on training or advice for any reason than accelerating their progress through the licensing process.
I accept that you have had way more experience in mentoring young riders than I and am truely terribly sorry for the losses. I feel though that if you read PF's preious posts you will realise that she has, as I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.

But please do not judge people you don't know. The young woman in question is very capable of learning from others and knows damn well she does not know it all.
She has both studied and undertaken training despite the fact that it will not accelerate her progress to full license. She is also active in BRONZ and assists with the Ride Right Ride Safe riding courses.

[NC]

People listen to advise, most don't take it.

You can talk to you're blue in the face, but only a smurf will be interested.

[James Deuce]

I accept that you have had way more experience in mentoring young riders than I and am truely terribly sorry for the losses. I feel though that if you read PF's preious posts you will realise that she has, as I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.

But please do not judge people you don't know. The young woman in question is very capable of learning from others and knows damn well she does not know it all.
She has both studied and undertaken training despite the fact that it will not accelerate her progress to full license. She is also active in BRONZ and assists with the Ride Right Ride Safe riding courses.

YOu could saved a lot of typing and just said, "Get Fucked".

I haven't met a 17 year old that I would trust to transport an empty paper cup from one side of a room to another without getting distracted, deciding that it would be better to construct an anti-gravity mobility/lifting device to move the cup, manipulating a memeber of the opposite sex to move the cup or telling me to move the cup myself. Rudely.

I would be thrilled if the person in question proved me wrong, but she would be an exception to a very ancient rule. An exception does not a trend make. I make no apologies for generalising in this case, and I am firmly of the opinion that Women should be allowed to go for their license at 18 and Men at 20. But only if the men manage to pass a small writtent test that proves they are capable of feeling empathy for at least one other person.

I read Placidfemme's posts and all I got out of it was that the "Holier than thou" attitude is getting a bit annoying. I agree. It is. We need to encourage not discourage, but as I've said, you can't help people who don't ask for it.

[The Stranger]

YOu could saved a lot of typing and just said, "Get Fucked".

I haven't met a 17 year old that I would trust to transport an empty paper cup from one side of a room to another without getting distracted, deciding that it would be better to construct an anti-gravity mobility/lifting device to move the cup, manipulating a memeber of the opposite sex to move the cup or telling me to move the cup myself. Rudely.

I would be thrilled if the person in question proved me wrong, but she would be an exception to a very ancient rule. An exception does not a trend make. I make no apologies for generalising in this case, and I am firmly of the opinion that Women should be allowed to go for their license at 18 and Men at 20. But only if the men manage to pass a small writtent test that proves they are capable of feeling empathy for at least one other person.

I read Placidfemme's posts and all I got out of it was that the "Holier than thou" attitude is getting a bit annoying. I agree. It is. We need to encourage not discourage, but as I've said, you can't help people who don't ask for it.
No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

[TwoSeven]

From my view, its really not about the person and their capabilities, that can all be learned -its more about the emotional stuff that goes on.

Any parent or best mate will tell you about the feeling they get when someone they care about decides to do something that contains a modicum of danger. Its usually followed by an attempt to talk them out of it - followed by acceptance (usually after the person ignores them and goes ahead with it anyhow).

While I grew up with motorcycles from an early age, I can certainly say what went thu my mind everytime someone I knew decided to start riding bikes or get a bigger one - personally I wish they wouldnt. But at the end of the day with a bit of coaching and a good peer group, they've all pretty much survived so far.

I think once they get thru the silly crashing stage (overconfidence and pretence of skill), most people become fairly good riders over time.

I didnt get any negative feedback from my parents on bike riding, but I sure did when I started throwing myself out of airplanes. Now, many years later I dont think it bothers them what I do.

[FROSTY]

I can assure you I have, considered the ramifications of a charge being injured, or worse. The toll would be horrendous.
Can--Im sorry dude its one of those situations where "ya gotta have been there" Nothing prepares you for someone in your charge ending up dead.
Imagination cant even begin to cover the incredible feeling of guilt. The -it should have been me-and all the other issues.
Its been 15 years now and I still havent recovered.
Gosh darn it I sound like an old fart--hate that.
I know we can't save em from themselves--Im a realist---but ILL be fucked if Im gonna encourage em to do something Im not comfortable with.

[mstriumph]

he would have been right had it been me --- i'm currently newly on a bike much different to what i have been used to riding --- the power, the response, the balance, the c of g ..... she's faaaaaaar more bike than i am rider and probably will be for some considerable time. The last two rides [my first two on her] i have deliberately sought out more experienced riders on similar bikes to follow, to get a 'feel' for what they are doing more competently than i am .... [and to be able to see what they are doing that i should best avoid]

but that's now

did i do that when i was a newish rider? [admittedly younger than 17 ..] - did i hell ..... ok, i survived ....... but it was luck, not judgement.

The girl can and will do what she can afford to do and none of you can stop her - but i think that, since what she appears to want [irresepective of her level of skill] is both against the law and would invalidate her insurance , it would be highly irresponsible for anyone to pretend it was a valid adult choice and/or encourage her.

No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

[James Deuce]

No Jim2, I consider I am polite and I genuinely do respect the opinions of others so the "Get Fucked" approach would not work for me.

But I feel it is a clue as to why the 17yr olds don't like taking your paper cups across the room for you.

I'd just like to point out that this is an Internet forum, and taking things too seriously goes with the territory. I think you're reading things into stuff I've said that aren't there.

I don't use smilies to make points so I'm used to wearing the results.

Ride safe but have fun.

[Big Dave]

Shame I was at the races - i would have made her a demo ride appointment.

My mum never wanted me to have an 1100 either - but if one kills me - I'll die fulfilled.

[froggyfrenchman]

youre quite right. i often have to remind myself of this

[White trash]

I see where you're coming from PF and agree. Rather than making this person feel welcome to our clicky little group of bikers, by everyone jumping on the "my advice is..." band wagon at once, we've alienated a young rider and a potentialy valuable member of our site.

I gave up riding with my dad and his mates at a VERY early stage as they were always telling me what I should be doing and how to ride. I went out and bought an almost new RGV250 after they all tried to tell me they knew best. I stepped straight from the RGV to a 98 GSXR750 and they still tried to tell me I didn't know what I was doing. Six months after I'd hurt myself as much as you can without losing a limb, I still thought they were a bunch of wankers.

Not actually sure what I'm trying to say but I think it's this. If someone doesn't ask for advice, don't give it.

Incidently, the only time my old man has seen me ride since teaching me, is when he videoed my very first race meeting, which I convincingly won all three races from the back of the grid. Riding a 750, still on a learner licence. Funnily enough, I only get encouragement from him now.

[placidfemme]

I'm glad that for once I managed to work my issue correctly and didn't confuse a lot of people...

All I did when Sam gave me all the details, was put myself in her shoes and thought "well if that was me... I would've told them all where to shove it and never ride with them again" and as White trash said "Rather than making this person feel welcome to our clicky little group of bikers, by everyone jumping on the "my advice is..." band wagon at once, we've alienated a young rider and a potentialy valuable member of our site."

Something like this case, sure doesn't seem right, due to age and experience, but I think a better approach could have been used.

I just hope that we havn't put off this particular rider from riding with us.

[White trash]

Yeah! You "advice givers" shoulda been showing the young lass how to pop a phat mono.

Sheeeeesh, what the hell is wrong with some people.....

[FROSTY]

or how to get her knee down round a blind corner overtaking a car

[Paul in NZ]

I'm glad that for once I managed to work my issue correctly and didn't confuse a lot of people... .

Nope - I'm still confused... But thats pretty normal.. But then I'm not a lot of people so you are probably still OK...


All I did when Sam gave me all the details, was put myself in her shoes and thought "well if that was me... I would've told them all where to shove it and never ride with them again"

Meh! Gunna happen sooner or later - she will go off and form her own gang and in a few years be tell'in everyone what to do, it's a law or an old charter or something...


our clicky little group of bikers, .

(adopts angry Homer voice) Curse you lousy aucklanders and your damn clicky ways. I tell you I'm gunna....

Mind you.... Thats pretty funny as without insulting your OR hijecking this thread most gay people I've met ate pretty clicky.... (probably for good reason) But those lesbians are the worst - clicky chickies... (boom tish) (I got a million of em folks)


I just hope that we havn't put off this particular rider from riding with us.

didn't put me off...

Now.. Tell her from me what she needs is a big old Moto Guzzi.... Stop messing about with those poxy jap things

Paul N

[placidfemme]

Nope - I'm still confused... But thats pretty normal.. But then I'm not a lot of people so you are probably still OK...


All I did when Sam gave me all the details, was put myself in her shoes and thought "well if that was me... I would've told them all where to shove it and never ride with them again"

Meh! Gunna happen sooner or later - she will go off and form her own gang and in a few years be tell'in everyone what to do, it's a law or an old charter or something...


our clicky little group of bikers, .

(adopts angry Homer voice) Curse you lousy aucklanders and your damn clicky ways. I tell you I'm gunna....

Mind you.... Thats pretty funny as without insulting your OR hijecking this thread most gay people I've met ate pretty clicky.... (probably for good reason) But those lesbians are the worst - clicky chickies... (boom tish) (I got a million of em folks)


I just hope that we havn't put off this particular rider from riding with us.

didn't put me off...

Now.. Tell her from me what she needs is a big old Moto Guzzi.... Stop messing about with those poxy jap things

Paul N

lol there was a moto guzzi on the ride!! where were you with yours?

*doesn't know anything about moto guzzis*

White Trash: lol I still need to learn to do a mono... just worried about doing it wrong and damaging my forks (heard that can happen...). I've kinda done one... but by mistake... and I doubt my front wheel got more than 10cm off the ground lol so I don't think it counts...

[WINJA]

Exactly... I want a 600 next, and people say to me "no get a 400 next and work your way up", a lot of bikers ride bikes they can't handle... and so we shouldn't be judging them but helping them... another dead biker is a black mark in our book... partly bad riding... party no support in being a better rider...

I know a mentor thing was kind of started... but I don't see the harm in experienced riders helping out the non-experienced riders... for example... me jumping on a 636... no doubt I wouldn't be able to handle it (not at this stage anyway)... but instead of giving me shit... why doesn't another more experienced 636 rider come to me and say "look I ride a 636, lets for a slow ride, and see how you ride" and the 636 rider can follow me, note my riding style and then give comments and lead for a while so I can lean the right lines and how to handle my new bike...

But I've just noticed the attitude sometimes really sucks...
JUST GET THE FUCKEN THOU

[justsomeguy]

JUST GET THE FUCKEN THOU

That girl did ride a CBR1100XX for part of the ride WINJA.

Don't have the patience to read the whole thread... but would like to highlight something here for those who either don't know it or haven't picked up on it.

This girl has one helluva big thing going for her: She has a sensible, responsible dad who is an active biker; from the few times I've met them I can see that he knows a thing or two about good parenting.

So I think she will receive wise advice or maybe even restrictions if she choses to do something that may not be in her best interest.

As for the big debate about don't buy a big bike too soon - doesn't it all depend on the rider?? A hoon will be unsafe on even a street magic.

[curious george]

I can't believe nobody's said it yet.
GIRLS SHOULDN'T HAVE BIG BIKES 'COS THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO RIDE THEM PROPERLY AND IT'S FAR TOO DANGEROUS LOVE.
There. Clear enough?

The fact that I ride my GSXR750 at about 50% of it's capability, and I'm still comming to terms with my RGV250 didn't stop me. Nobody put me off, or talked me out of it either.
Why? 'Cos as a bloke it's ok.
The probable fact that lots of people on sports bikes (and cars) use them to a sililar level doesn't deny them the enjoyment of riding something awesome... but for some reason a different set of rules come into play.. Can't explain it, chocolate fish for the first that does.
It's plain and simple sexism, in a nice caring way. Also known by the term condescending...

[mikey]

jims right,

if i wasnt poor i would buy a 600-1000 an tell all of you to go fuck yourselves when ya started preaching, until then the nsr is going to get given death until death gets me,

[Riff Raff]

I can't believe nobody's said it yet.
GIRLS SHOULDN'T HAVE BIG BIKES 'COS THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO RIDE THEM PROPERLY AND IT'S FAR TOO DANGEROUS LOVE.
There. Clear enough?
And if someone said that to me, my reply would be "GET FUCKED". I can be so eloquent!! :devil2:

[justsomeguy]

jims right,

if i wasnt poor i would buy a 600-1000 an tell all of you to go fuck yourselves when ya started preaching, until then the nsr is going to get given death until death gets me,


Hehehehehe Mikey -:clap: isn't that the real reason why ducatis and harleys and ferrari's and porsches are all supposed to be riden/driven by tossers..... while the real people buy secondhand cheap japanese stuff?????

[Waylander]

Hehehehehe Mikey -:clap: isn't that the real reason why ducatis and harleys and ferrari's and porsches are all supposed to be riden/driven by tossers..... while the real people buy secondhand cheap japanese stuff?????
Does that mean I'm a real person? I feel so proud.

[justsomeguy]

Does that mean I'm a real person? I feel so proud.

No:nono: you're a teenage mutant skinny-arse turtle. :yes:

[Waylander]

No:nono: you're a teenage mutant skinny-arse turtle. :yes:
Oh, well atleast I'm a young again. Good to be a teenager.

[Big Dave]

I don't use smilies to make points so I'm used to wearing the results.




Get over yourself. They can add a certain efficiency.

[SPman]

Well I bought a thou and I cant ride for shit and do I give a toss???? :nono:

[El Dopa]

And if someone said that to me, my reply would be "GET FUCKED". I can be so eloquent!! :devil2:

Saw a bit of this conversation. Looked to me like the girl in question could more than hold her own. And good on her.

'Get fucked' didn't actually come out of her mouth, but if there had been a visible thought bubble over her head.....

[Teflon]

Well, i was riding around on a GSXR11 when i was 15, I never crashed it, or did no harm to my riding style. I respected the GSXR more than the NSR I had at the time. Never dropped the GSXR, but the NSR, shit-loads of times, the bitch highsided me.

Had a FZR1000 ( less than 10,000 on the clock) when i was 17, i survived.

[FROSTY]

this debate could go on ad infinitum.
I personally couldnt give a fat rats ass if its a girl a boy or a friggen monkey.
I firmly believe that an inexperienced rider on a powerfull bike is stacking the cards against themselves. Heck look there are those who will ride safely and sensibly and legally no question. well good on em and I will be the first to congratulate em
BUT I will not ENCOURAGE them to move up.
My reasons I have stated earlier -its arguably irrational as everybody is different but Im not prepared to run the risk of being proven right.

[bugjuice]

i agree with frosty. this is one of those 'why a litre' debate thing.. people are going to stick with what they think. end of the day, you can't change the world. just hope the person(s) in their situation make the right choice. I've also stated my opinions and will stick by them to the deathbed..

[cowboyz]

Why not, its a slow night.

I don't remember learning how to ride a bike. I think I rode one out of the hospital and left Dad to pick Mum up. My parents never liked the idea of me being on the road (in fact they still don't) so I spent all my life on dirt.

When I came round to getting my licence in the latter years I didn't want to pay the $4-500 for a learners how to ride course and convinced the guy to let my *just* sit the basic handling test without any classes. The guy old me I would fail and no one ever passes the basic handling test without "learning" how to ride a road bike. I told him that I had spent 20+ years on dirt and he was convinced this didn't matter because riding on the road is so much more complicated than riding on dirt.

So I did the test and passed (of course). Got my little ninja and rode it round and round and learnt how the bike leans and how it picks up. Up till last week I never dropped it at all but that was unavoidable, unlucky.. however you want to put it. I don't care how experienced you are my accident was just freaky and I don't believe anyone could have avoided it.

(ego time)... I believe I walked away from it due to keeping my head on striaght and processing what was happening quickly enough to realise the front of my bike was missing and keeping balance enough to slow teh bike so I could drop it at rest rather than skidding down the road at 100k/hr. Maybe it was pure dumb luck. Maybe in the same scenario again I won't walk away from it. Hopefully we will never find out.


I don't condone anyone riding outside the conditions of their licence (I had to put up with the crap time restrictions, so can everyone else!) but simply saying someone has to *almost* crash to gain experience is just wrong. You don't have to stack a bike to learn that it is going to hurt if you do.

All you need to ride on the road is alot of common sense and a little fear... Don't forget that little fear. It is the fear that keeps you smart.

[Paul in NZ]

jims right,

if i wasnt poor i would buy a 600-1000 an tell all of you to go fuck yourselves when ya started preaching, until then the nsr is going to get given death until death gets me,

Aw jeeze Mikey ya don't need a 600-1000 to tell me to go fuck myself mate... Soon as i start preaching get stuck in dude...

[R6_kid]

only read the first page so this may have already been said (and i wont be checking back to see the replies to this :devil2: )

With regards to CaN2 as she is known:
A race bike perhaps? After blatting it around puke on saturday i found my road riding was sedated quite a bit... i.e i didnt feel the need to be a rampant hooligan and redline it off every set of lights. For me this is quite wierd but i actually enjoyed just being there on my bike and knowing i was safe as houses (no cars around) just riding. Now im not sure if this is the same for people like loosebruce! (i highly doubt it :rofl: )

What i can say about her riding ability, despite not seeing it first hand is that i know she is good/quick. Dont take this the wrong way, as we were riding across the coromandel and werent doing anything dangerous. BUT she was the first bike off the hill after the 3 sprot bikes that were giving it a nailing.

After trying out a small handfull of 750's (ZX7R and GSXR750's of various descriptions) i can only say one thing, as said to me by SPB - "The throttle goes both ways" If its straight line speed you want (and dont care too much for the licence restriction) then by all means there is nothing stopping you from getting something bigger than 250. As long as your head is in the right place, which im sure hers is, then there shouldnt be any problem. She doesnt want to go out and kill herself, she has simply expressed a desire for more speed/power which in all honesty we all do at some stage.

I'll give her the same advice i have been given about the 'step up'... Get the bike YOU want (okay so your old man might have say to some extent), learn at your own pace, and stay within your comfort zone. All the guys i have spoken too that have large bikes (ZX12R's etc) talk about immense learning curves when changing between bikes. You have to remember that you wont be able to the push the bike to the max straight away, but if you take the time to learn the bike and where its weaknesses are then there is nothing stopping you from being a great rider.

[anhrefn]

I could only find 1Cent so heres my little bit. Put her through the courses, not just defensive driving but perhaps a riding school. I know there are probably better ideas out there but these are the basic recognised ways and have all that "approval" stuff with it. She wants a bigger bike? Why not set the goal of saving up for one she wants and aiming to get it when she has her full lisence, no fines to worry about then. Ok ultimately it is her father that has to feel comfortable with his girl getting on her bigger bike and well to put it simple it really is between him and her. I guess if it was me and my kids I would want them to learn as much as they could and make there own discisons on the matter, but well to be honest I know I would try and have some kind of influence on them.

[Jackrat]

Personaly I try not to encourage anybody into buying a bike of any type.
But once they've made that decision for themselfs I'll support what ever they want to do as long as it's legal.
As far as wanting a bigger bike,,,,,,at that age who doesn't??
If dad made it obvious he wasn't into it I'd just say nothing at all.

[mstriumph]

hang showing the young lass - wish someone would show me .............. :confused:
Yeah! You "advice givers" shoulda been showing the young lass how to pop a phat mono.

Sheeeeesh, what the hell is wrong with some people.....

[Macktheknife]

A wonderful voice of reason, its too easy to knock others for their faults or poor decision making. Good one girl, gets my vote.

[SixPackBack]

THROTTLE ACTION IS REVERSIBLE..........WANT ANY HELP OR ADVICE CaN, I'M LISTENING :Punk:

[James Deuce]

Get over yourself. They can add a certain efficiency.

I refuse to get over myself (it's too far to climb. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with being taller lying down. Bloody Pies.)

[Big Dave]

I refuse to get over myself (it's too far to climb. I'm starting to feel uncomfortable with being taller lying down. Bloody Pies.)

I have/can tell you how to fix all that.

[scumdog]

Hehehehehe Mikey -:clap: isn't that the real reason why ducatis and harleys and ferrari's and porsches are all supposed to be riden/driven by tossers..... while the real people buy secondhand cheap japanese stuff?????

No, those that buy 'secondhand cheap japanes stuff' just say that to compensate for the fact that 'secondhand cheap japanese stuff' is all they can afford. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Waylander]

No, those that buy 'secondhand cheap japanes stuff' just say that to compensate for the fact that 'secondhand cheap japanese stuff' is all they can afford. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You say "cheap" I say more originality. Not hard to follow a crowd. The real work comes in making yourself stand out as an individual.

[scumdog]

You say "cheap" I say more originality. Not hard to follow a crowd. The real work comes in making yourself stand out as an individual.

If you're a REAL individual you won't need the 'crutch' of a fancy scoot!!
Be your own man dude!


(Says he with custom cars and hot rods!!)

[Big Dave]

Be your own man dude!
(Says he with custom cars and hot rods!!)

AND dresses up in a uniform.

[Waylander]

If you're a REAL individual you won't need the 'crutch' of a fancy scoot!!
Be your own man dude!


(Says he with custom cars and hot rods!!)
Have you actually seen pictures of my bike? Hell mate WINJA's street magic is fancyier (bugger off hitcher.:hitcher::dodge:) But give me a couple cans of crimson and flat black paint.... still wont be fancy but will most definately be wicked.:devil2:

[scumdog]

AND dresses up in a uniform.

For that you deserve a :Pokey:

And I see it as 'work clothes' just like the overalls and gumboots at the freezing works! :bleh:

[RiderInBlack]

For that you deserve a :Pokey:

And I see it as 'work clothes' just like the overalls and gumboots at the freezing works! :bleh:And on a bad day you'd be wishing that you had overalls and freezing works gumboots. Don't envy you mate. You'd also wish that people were better at taking advice. Too bad that is not their nature.

[Lias]

Must be really fucking weird for Can2 if she's been sitting back and reading all these random people debating over what she should or shouldn't do.

I think the most important point that everyones missing thou, is that she's a good looking young woman, and someone should REALLY have chained Biff up for her protection :devil2: