"Lest we forget"

[mstriumph]

It's coming up to that time of year again ... :(

I'm a Brit, an Aussi, a Kiwi too.
I've probably lost as many family as anyone else in the various wars the governments of the day have embroiled us in.

I've also been a member of the armed services, so don't think I'm a card-carrying "forgive and forget" pacifist - I'm not.

BUT
what I'm going to be remembering when 11th comes around is

that our governments sent our young people overseas to fight and sometimes die (and very messily and painfully too) in situations where, if our homelands were attacked, it was because of the alliances we made
as far as I can see, Germany and Japan attacked us only because of those alliances and the other combatants with which our masters engaged us never even threatened our native soil

so - I'm remembering our dead
remembering how they were misled
into thinking
the stinking
wounds that they suffered and blood that they shed
was somehow worthwhile.......

while it was just some wet dream of those that sent them ... who cowered, safe, 'at home' and mebbe even profited from it, one way or another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUwDHNJlJ2I

So, sleep well all our honourable dead
You died because your country required it
That it was not an honourable request by those you should have been able to trust
does not detract in the slightest from our respect for you

[5ive]

Oh fuck off.

You could have just honoured them without the spin.

[Murray]

as far as I can see, Germany and Japan attacked us only because of those alliances and the other combatants with which our masters engaged us never even threatened our native soil


What a lot of crap

When did Japan and Germany attack us???

Japan attacked the USA who up to that stage had stayed out of the war apart from arms supplys.

Germany were warned time and time that if they invaded Poland England would have no option but to declare war. Chamberlain did everything but show a white flag to Hitler and his mob.

You would be happy for Europe and where ever else was under the third reich???

Dickhead

[Ocean1]

which our masters engaged us

M'dear, if you'd suggested to any one of the dearly departed that their choices were anything but their own you'd have got your bottom spanked.

Same today.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of the OPs assertions and leave it at that - a rememberence thread is not the place for a Flame War.

On the 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the Eleventh month - we shall remember them.

[ruaphu]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of the OPs assertions and leave it at that - a rememberence thread is not the place for a Flame War.

On the 11th hour, of the 11th day, of the Eleventh month - we shall remember them.

Yep, well said, I'll second that motion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mashman]

I reckon they would appreciate your words more highly than others mstriumph. Even though they are gone, they were someone's father, mother, daughter, son, uncle, best mate, husband to be, promising pianist, philanthropist, architect, doctor, binman etc... Doesn't really matter what day it is or what hour it is, it doesn't change what they did. However, that is already being forgotten.

[Berries]

Alcohol fueled posts are great.

[oldrider]

Totally agree with mstriumph! ...

War is a complete waste of everything and if our glorious dead could speak for themselves I am sure that they would agree!

Have we learned nothing from their sacrifice ... we shall remember them! R.I.P.

Meanwhile, don't forget the stupid bastards and their stupid logic and so called reasoning that sent them there either!

They will do it again and again, if we let them!

[bluninja]

Being English and having a grandfather that served in WW1, and 4 uncles in WW2 I will remember them on a personal level. I'll also remember all those lost in other conflicts to protect British people and interests, and especially those that have died carrying out peacekeeping activities around the world.

For those people with better than 20/20 hindsight as to why conflicts happened...it would be great to see the same level of commitment and personal sacrifice to prevent further "needless" loss as those armed forces people gave so many, many, times.

To me the best way to remember them is to strive to build a more peaceful world, one relationship at a time.

[Akzle]

tuesday at 11pm?
party at mel brown's.

[FJRider]

I've probably lost as many family as anyone else in the various wars the governments of the day have embroiled us in.

Probably ... means you're guessing. State FACT (on THIS subject) or shut up.


I've also been a member of the armed services, so don't think I'm a card-carrying "forgive and forget" pacifist - I'm not.

SO HAVE I ... and I do ...


BUT
what I'm going to be remembering when 11th comes around is

that our governments sent our young people overseas to fight and sometimes die (and very messily and painfully too) in situations where, if our homelands were attacked, it was because of the alliances we made

True ... no dispute there.


as far as I can see, Germany and Japan attacked us only because of those alliances and the other combatants with which our masters engaged us never even threatened our native soil

Japan attacked Aussie ... and had us (NZ) in their sights for dominance of the greater Pacific area. (Why buy when you CAN own)


so - I'm remembering our dead
remembering how they were misled
into thinking
the stinking
wounds that they suffered and blood that they shed
was somehow worthwhile.......

while it was just some wet dream of those that sent them ... who cowered, safe, 'at home' and mebbe even profited from it, one way or another.

I remember/KNEW some of those dead ... before they died. And ... spoke to their Parents afterwards. THEY ... and I ... believed we served with a true purpose. AND .. none I knew ever regretted being in those places.


So, sleep well all our honourable dead
You died because your country required it

Pull your head in. You're NOT impressing or convincing ANYBODY.

Our Country ASKED it of us. We didn't HAVE to go. Few that went anywhere ... had any regrets. What didn't impress us ... was the attitude of those that DIDN'T go.


That it was not an honourable request by those you should have been able to trust
does not detract in the slightest from our respect for you

YOUR opinion only ... and those that served overseas ... had no respect for any comments of that ... (or similar vein).

[R650R]

YOUR opinion only ... and those that served overseas ... had no respect for any comments of that ... (or similar vein).

They would have never ever used bold and capital letters together either (or multi quoted), their English teacher would have fair rapped their knuckles with the cane for that.
Nice to see all that patriotic fervour backed up with Japanese bike ownership ;p :)

[FJRider]

Nice to see all that patriotic fervour backed up with Japanese bike ownership ;p :)

My bike is Japanese ... as I have no issue with JAPAN .. (China is another story) :laugh:

Those that returned from the Somme were called hero's ...

Those that returned from Da Nang were called Baby Killers.

[ellipsis]

Probably ... means you're guessing. State FACT (on THIS subject) or shut up.



SO HAVE I ... and I do ...



True ... no dispute there.



Japan attacked Aussie ... and had us (NZ) in their sights for dominance of the greater Pacific area. (Why buy when you CAN own)



I remember/KNEW some of those dead ... before they died. And ... spoke to their Parents afterwards. THEY ... and I ... believed we served with a true purpose. AND .. none I knew ever regretted being in those places.



Pull your head in. You're NOT impressing or convincing ANYBODY.

Our Country ASKED it of us. We didn't HAVE to go. Few that went anywhere ... had any regrets. What didn't impress us ... was the attitude of those that DIDN'T go.



YOUR opinion only ... and those that served overseas ... had no respect for any comments of that ... (or similar vein).


...you are pulling your cock and blowing your horn, whilst giving your opinion, in my opinion...

[amberzfire]

Hey Mstriumph,

While I cannot speak to or for the fallen ... nor have I ever been a member of the armed forces, I can only come from the compassionate and empathetic viewpoint of a civilian.

What they went through I can't even begin to imagine. Much respect.

Thankyou for posting this, it has triggered remembrance of others when I become consumed by my own daily existence.

[allycatz]

A while back, I went in to sit one of our 87 year old residents for breakfast. In total panic his first wordstome..."tell them I can't go out with a cracked window, it will never hold, we won't make it back". I held his hand and asked me to tell me what the window was for so I could pass the message on to the right person. He was of course referring to his Corsair's he flew in the Pacific in WWII.....52 missions in total and every time they came back with one less plane.

I look at the war channel and I see young vibrant men and women. These are the same men and woman I now care for. Without these guys we would not be where we are today. That's why I'm proud to take care of them

[amberzfire]

A while back, I went in to sit one of our 87 year old residents for breakfast. In total panic his first wordstome..."tell them I can't go out with a cracked window, it will never hold, we won't make it back". I held his hand and asked me to tell me what the window was for so I could pass the message on to the right person. He was of course referring to his Corsair's he flew in the Pacific in WWII.....52 missions in total and every time they came back with one less plane.

I look at the war channel and I see young vibrant men and women. These are the same men and woman I now care for. Without these guys we would not be where we are today. That's why I'm proud to take care of them

well said allycatz ... it takes a special person to look after others.

[mstriumph]

What a lot of crap

When did Japan and Germany attack us???

Japan attacked the USA who up to that stage had stayed out of the war apart from arms supplys.

Germany were warned time and time that if they invaded Poland England would have no option but to declare war. Chamberlain did everything but show a white flag to Hitler and his mob.

You would be happy for Europe and where ever else was under the third reich???

Dickhead

Japan attacked Australia - read my post re my citizenship - because of Australia's alliance with Britain
Germany attacked Britain - read my post re my citizenship - because of Britain's overseas alliance (Poland)

my contention is that neither attack would have happened if Britain and Australia had had the sense to stay OUT of other people's squabbles

if you want it closer to NZ (read my post etc etc) then defend, if you can, the slaughter of NZers at Gallipoli ... WHY THE HELL WERE THEY THERE??? Because our government (speaking as a NZer now) blindly followed where others led.

.... and someone who can't formulate the plural of 'supply' has no right to call someone who can names .... you dickhead.

[mstriumph]

M'dear, if you'd suggested to any one of the dearly departed that their choices were anything but their own you'd have got your bottom spanked.

Same today.

hmmmmm I take THAT with a large pinch of salt. Folk in their teens/20's are full to the brim with testosterone, bored with their day-to-day, looking for adventure and think they are immortal (read 'bulletproof).

Along comes a totally immoral government and, for its own ends, takes advantage of that by manipulating reality with the smoke and mirrors of patriotism and honour.

Now - if you call THAT a 'free' choice ............... I've got a bridge in Sydney harbour that I can let you have cheap ;)

[mstriumph]

Totally agree with mstriumph! ...

War is a complete waste of everything .................!

wow :o

and again - wow

[mstriumph]

Probably ... means you're guessing. State FACT (on THIS subject) or shut up.
you want us to swap lists of dead friends and relatives to prove a point on an internet forum? :facepalm: You obviously have an odd notion of the meaning of the word 'respect'.




SO HAVE I ... and I do ... ??? you do what? forgive all? carry a card? think I carry a card? what? WHAT??




I remember/KNEW some of those dead ... before they died. And ... spoke to their Parents afterwards. THEY ... and I ... believed we served with a true purpose. AND .. none I knew ever regretted being in those places. Just one more proof that brainwashing works - not being a smartarse, it makes me truly sad.




Pull your head in. You're NOT impressing or convincing ANYBODY. Yup - not allowed to cast aspersions on patriotism, eh? ............. or say that the king has no clothes ....


Our Country ASKED it of us. We didn't HAVE to go.

if you are talking NZ, (I was talking more generally) which war are you talking about? No conscription in WW1? WW2? hmmmm? If conscription was a mere request, how come folks got locked up for declining the invitation, hmmmm? If you are talking more recent times, and more generally as I was, Australians were conscripted for Vietnam. I think you'll find they did HAVE to go.



Few that went anywhere ... had any regrets. ... if you came back in one piece, it was probably a great adventure .......... if you came back ruined or dead, you'd probably have a modified viewpoint methinks.


What didn't impress us ... was the attitude of those that DIDN'T go. Hey - don't knock me because I don't 'choose' to go marching into someone else's country to play with a lot of armament the government would NEVER let me get my hands on at home, shoot random foreigners I've never been introduced to BECAUSE THEY ARE DEFENDING THEIR OWN SOIL, and blow other people's shit up.

If someone has attacked you, personally, then by all means go after them ... but to shoot strangers in their own country because some pack of unrepresentative swill (thank you Mr Keating) of a government wants to make brownie points with their overseas counterparts???? The mind boggles.


YOUR opinion only ... and those that served overseas ... had no respect for any comments of that ... (or similar vein). erm? Is English your first language? If so, how frustrating for you to be so inarticulate in it.

[mstriumph]

..............

Those that returned from the Somme were called hero's ...

.

which hero's what?

[Akzle]

which hero's what?

somme. .

[R650R]

you want us to swap lists of dead friends and relatives to prove a point on an internet forum? :facepalm: You obviously have an odd notion of the meaning of the word 'respect'.



Some pertinent comebacks there, well said.

Back to topic, maybe it should be "Lest we selectively forget"
Its all very well to honour those who died stopping a potential threat to civilisation, but at the same time we should not forget the mistakes made and the crimes by the colluders and makers of war.
Many Western corpoarations were complicit in sharing technology with Nazi branches of their companies as it advanced their design technology and profits.
The then were the owners of IG Farben and other major industrials who utilised slave labour from the concentration camps to produce goods. Many of these companies exist today still under major brand name labels with slight changes but still owned by same families.

[Akzle]

Many of these companies exist today still under major brand name labels with slight changes but still owned by same families.

the jews !

[Ocean1]

hmmmmm I take THAT with a large pinch of salt. Folk in their teens/20's are full to the brim with testosterone, bored with their day-to-day, looking for adventure and think they are immortal (read 'bulletproof).

As opposed to, say middle aged concaved folk who are full of butterflies and flowers and likely to turn cheeks at the drop of a morter and think liberty grows on trees?


Along comes a totally immoral government and, for its own ends, takes advantage of that by manipulating reality with the smoke and mirrors of patriotism and honour.

Possibly less destructive than those encouraging our teens/20's into a liberal arts degree though.

And I'm not convinced "patriotism" and "honour" can coexist in a coherent sentence with "manipulating reality".


Now - if you call THAT a 'free' choice ............... I've got a bridge in Sydney harbour that I can let you have cheap ;)

Any other groups you feel need to be relieved of the responsibility of making their own decisions? Voters, perhaps? Jews? Women? And who should make those choices for them, eh?

No Ms, it was their choice, theirs alone. And they made it knowing that the ability to do so was precisely what was at stake. History says they succeeded. And frankly I'd take their choice any day of the week over attempting to protect individual freedoms from people who "just know better", those who incrementally erode our freedoms under the guise of "the greater good".

[mstriumph]

the jews !

c'mon .... everyone recognises overcompensatation when they see it ....
everyone KNOWS that Akzle is a Jewish name :nya:

[jonbuoy]

c'mon .... everyone recognises overcompensatation when they see it ....
everyone KNOWS that Akzle is a Jewish name :nya:

Classy thread- KB dips to a new low.

[mstriumph]

As opposed to, say middle aged concaved folk who are full of butterflies and flowers and likely to turn cheeks at the drop of a morter and think liberty grows on trees? lol
ahhh c'mon, some of us have killed people ... why d'you think we now prefer butterflies?




Possibly less destructive than those encouraging our teens/20's into a liberal arts degree though. hmmm well THAT misguided descision might merely make them unemployable in the real world ... but at least they'd still BE in the real world (as opposed to potentially dead?)


And I'm not convinced "patriotism" and "honour" can coexist in a coherent sentence with "manipulating reality".no-one has ever accused me of being coherent before :blink: not sure how to react ....



Any other groups you feel need to be relieved of the responsibility of making their own decisions? Voters, perhaps? Jews? Women? And who should make those choices for them, eh? nice try but inadmissible ... there's a whole (very lucrative) industry based on making people's choices for them ... the acceptable name for it is advertising... when governments do it, the more sinister (and accurate) name is brainwashing



No Ms, it was their choice, theirs alone. And they made it knowing that the ability to do so was precisely what was at stake. sorry, but bollocks (and you know it)

History says they succeeded. erm? "personal sucess through being dead or dismembered" does that REALLY work for you?

[mstriumph]

Classy thread- KB dips to a new low.

erm ... only if you don't know that mstriumph is also a Jewish name?

[James Deuce]

History says they succeeded. And frankly I'd take their choice any day of the week over attempting to protect individual freedoms from people who "just know better", those who incrementally erode our freedoms under the guise of "the greater good".

That is a good point. I do flinch from the auto-Hero worship mode the US have gone into in regard to their current crop of troops. I suspect it is because most Americans are subconciously uncomfortable with the moral justifications used for the US's violent attempts to maintain economic control of the world.

[Voltaire]

Japan attacked Australia - read my post re my citizenship - because of Australia's alliance with Britain
Germany attacked Britain - read my post re my citizenship - because of Britain's overseas alliance (Poland)

my contention is that neither attack would have happened if Britain and Australia had had the sense to stay OUT of other people's squabbles

if you want it closer to NZ (read my post etc etc) then defend, if you can, the slaughter of NZers at Gallipoli ... WHY THE HELL WERE THEY THERE??? Because our government (speaking as a NZer now) blindly followed where others led.

.... and someone who can't formulate the plural of 'supply' has no right to call someone who can names .... you dickhead.

Agree with " lest we forget"

Had Britain not declared war on Germany its highly likely the Germans would have won in Europe as they probably would have beaten the Russians not having to fight on two fronts.
The Germans may have just left the UK alone as they were not that interested in a war with them.
As bad as Gallipoli was there were French and British troops there at the other end of the peninsula, lots of cemetaries at the Cape Helles end.
They were there as the Western Front had stalemated and Churchill ( I think) had the idea of attacking the Austro Hungarian Empire via the balkans
The High Command were from another era and did not have the skills to manage a modern mechanized war.

Monument at the Somme: 20 000 killed in one day. Attacking German machine guns head on was the best plan Douglas Haig could come up with.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/DSC00208_zpse71bc977.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p235/rednzep/DSC00887_zps219a05c8.jpg

Anzac Cove - 2004

[Katman]

Hey - don't knock me because I don't 'choose' to go marching into someone else's country to play with a lot of armament the government would NEVER let me get my hands on at home, shoot random foreigners I've never been introduced to BECAUSE THEY ARE DEFENDING THEIR OWN SOIL, and blow other people's shit up.

If someone has attacked you, personally, then by all means go after them ... but to shoot strangers in their own country because some pack of unrepresentative swill (thank you Mr Keating) of a government wants to make brownie points with their overseas counterparts???? The mind boggles.


That's precisely why NZ (and Australia if they had any sense) should keep their fucking noses out of the whole ISIS deal.

[Banditbandit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxkhBvO8_kM

[Big Dog]

I don't care for their motives.
I am grateful for their sacrifice.

I don't agree with the decisions of the powers that be, but for all those who laid their lives on the line that I might have the freedom to have my own opinion and express I now bow my head.
Even if I don't agree with some of the sentiments in this thread at least we have the choice to speak freely, make informed decisions and live without religious or racial persecution. So thank you to all who I disagree with for reminding me of the importance of the sacrifice made by so many over so little.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[R650R]

That is a good point. I do flinch from the auto-Hero worship mode the US have gone into in regard to their current crop of troops. I suspect it is because most Americans are subconciously uncomfortable with the moral justifications used for the US's violent attempts to maintain economic control of the world.

I had the pleasure (as individual people they are very friendly, I just disagree with their foreign policy disasters) prior to and during Gulf War II of delivering foodstuffs to several USAFE bases for about 6 months.
Back then I still believed the official story of 911 with just JFK and Diana being the only conspiracies I was aware of like most ordinary people.
I became good friends with several military personal. With an obvious sense of guilt and self doubt and making sure no one else was listening they would ask me every few weeks or so, "Do you think we're doing the right thing?" "Are we bombing the right country" etc and along those lines.

[SPman]

What we should Remember on Remembrance Day is just how we much can learn from the past…and just how little changes in the future if we don’t learn from the past.



The First World War began in August 1914 because a collection of six treaties had been signed, a very obscure radical had assassinated a fairly obscure Archduke, and two sides of the same Royal family were playing a game called Battleships. Somewhere between 8 and 10 million people died as a result. For nothing. You can be certain it was for nothing, because Germany remained bitter about losing, and that too was a major factor in Hitler’s rise to power. The Arab nations who fought against the Turks were cheated out of their gains – a spectre still with us today – and Hungary lost two thirds of its territory simply because it was part of the losing Hapsburg dynasty’s empire.

The Second World War began on September 3rd 1939. Billed as a fight to eliminate fascism, it did this by taking the most cruel fascist regime in history, the USSR, to its bosom after 1941. In fact, the war was fought against Germany and Japan to protect three Empires: the British, American, and Russian. Thirty years on, weapons had become more efficient, and the idea of bombing folks was considerably more in vogue….as indeed it still is today. So this time, 48 million people died. For nothing.

You can be certain it was for nothing, for, among other reasons:

- The two main winners claimed it as a victory for liberty and democracy. 70 years on, both countries are bankrupt, and heading pell-mell towards corporacratic dictatorship. The conditions of the average citizen are rapidly declining. Viciously brutal religious fascists are murdering infidels on an industrial scale. The solution to this is….to bomb folks. In Vietnam, the solution was…to bomb Cambodia. In Iraq, the solution was ..... to bomb Baghdad. Some bombing of Syria is already taking place.

- The third winning combatant no longer exists, having collapsed under the weight of its own repression. It has been replaced by a vaguely official mafia of moguls, and the condition of the average Russian citizen is as bad as ever.

- The alleged main loser was divided into two countries, and given billions in Marshall Aid. 70 years on, it is the dominating member of a European Union whose size and illberal tendencies would’ve pleased Adolf Hitler no end.

- Today, the vast majority of “thinking progressives” vilify Israel. Antisemitism in central, east and south eastern Europe is as nastily casual as it ever was. Israel hasn’t exactly covered itself in glory, but 75 years after the Iranian Ba’ath Party held secret meetings with SS representatives – following which a letter bulging with fulsome praise for annihilation plans for the Jews was dispatched to the Reich Chancellery – Israelis still find themselves surrounded by hostile Arabs as bitter as ever about the way they were cheated in 1919, 1926, and 1947

and so it goes............


“Remember the glorious dead” say the idiots....

There is no glory in any death that achieves nothing.

On Remembrance Day, this is what we should remember:

War solves nothing and changes precious little!

[jonbuoy]

erm ... only if you don't know that mstriumph is also a Jewish name?

So you were quite happy with Hitlers actions- no reason to get involved?

[oldrider]

So you were quite happy with Hitlers actions- no reason to get involved?

She didn't say or even infer that ... you are just being facetious jonbuoy ... hmmm, maybe even stupid! ... No, facetious will do it! :yes:

[jonbuoy]

She didn't say or even infer that ... you are just being facetious jonbuoy ... hmmm, maybe even stupid! ... No, facetious will do it! :yes:

Are you going senile? Your posts are getting more and more bizarre. That's exactly whats she's implying- with a "don't get involved its not my problem" attitude. A remembrance thread is supposed to be about honouring the memory of the people who died doing what they thought was the right thing - not about soap boxing with inflammatory comments.

[Akzle]

So you were quite happy with Hitlers actions- no reason to get involved?

given that he was financed by jews in england... as a presumably english mongrel, you should be.

[jonbuoy]

This is exactly why remembrance threads and politics threads should be seperate.

[Akzle]

A remembrance thread is supposed to be about honouring the memory of the people who died doing what they thought was the right thing

that's a judgement call. and not yours to make.

[Voltaire]

The First World War began in August 1914 because a collection of six treaties had been signed, a very obscure radical had assassinated a fairly obscure Archduke, and two sides of the same Royal family were playing a game called Battleships. Somewhere between 8 and 10 million people died as a result. For nothing. You can be certain it was for nothing, because Germany remained bitter about losing, and that too was a major factor in Hitler’s rise to power. The Arab nations who fought against the Turks were cheated out of their gains – a spectre still with us today – and Hungary lost two thirds of its territory simply because it was part of the losing Hapsburg dynasty’s empire.

The Second World War began on September 3rd 1939. Billed as a fight to eliminate fascism, it did this by taking the most cruel fascist regime in history, the USSR, to its bosom after 1941. In fact, the war was fought against Germany and Japan to protect three Empires: the British, American, and Russian. Thirty years on, weapons had become more efficient, and the idea of bombing folks was considerably more in vogue….as indeed it still is today. So this time, 48 million people died. For nothing.

You can be certain it was for nothing, for, among other reasons:

- The two main winners claimed it as a victory for liberty and democracy. 70 years on, both countries are bankrupt, and heading pell-mell towards corporacratic dictatorship. The conditions of the average citizen are rapidly declining. Viciously brutal religious fascists are murdering infidels on an industrial scale. The solution to this is….to bomb folks. In Vietnam, the solution was…to bomb Cambodia. In Iraq, the solution was ..... to bomb Baghdad. Some bombing of Syria is already taking place.

- The third winning combatant no longer exists, having collapsed under the weight of its own repression. It has been replaced by a vaguely official mafia of moguls, and the condition of the average Russian citizen is as bad as ever.

- The alleged main loser was divided into two countries, and given billions in Marshall Aid. 70 years on, it is the dominating member of a European Union whose size and illberal tendencies would’ve pleased Adolf Hitler no end.

- Today, the vast majority of “thinking progressives” vilify Israel. Antisemitism in central, east and south eastern Europe is as nastily casual as it ever was. Israel hasn’t exactly covered itself in glory, but 75 years after the Iranian Ba’ath Party held secret meetings with SS representatives – following which a letter bulging with fulsome praise for annihilation plans for the Jews was dispatched to the Reich Chancellery – Israelis still find themselves surrounded by hostile Arabs as bitter as ever about the way they were cheated in 1919, 1926, and 1947

and so it goes............

where do you find this drivel.

[jonbuoy]

that's a judgement call. and not yours to make.

As even you cant keep your dope addled retarded comments to yourself in a memorial thread I think its a fair call.

[Akzle]

As even you cant keep your dope addled retarded comments to yourself in a memorial thread I think its a fair call.

youre so right, and completely addressed the issues at hand, rather than resorting to dismissive personal attacks.
:not::not:
dweeb.

[oldrider]

This is exactly why remembrance threads and politics threads should be seperate.

If you think politics and war and their concequences are not entwined you are a complete fuckwit! :rolleyes:

[Berries]

As even you cant keep your dope addled retarded comments to yourself in a memorial thread I think its a fair call.
Memorial thread? You should read the first post rant again.

[jonbuoy]

If you think politics and war and their concequences are not entwined you are a complete fuckwit! :rolleyes:



Time and a place. And if you think blabbering about politics in a thread with the title "lest we forget" a few days before 11/11 is appropriate the fuckwit would be you.

[jonbuoy]

Memorial thread? You should read the first post rant again.

Unless "lest we forget" and Remembrance Day has suddenly taken on a new meaning then it's a memorial thread.

[oldrider]

Time and a place. And if you think blabbering about politics in a thread with the title "lest we forget" a few days before 11/11 is appropriate the fuckwit would be you.

To each his own ... have a happy day! :sunny:

[mstriumph]

^^^ wat he said

[SPman]

where do you find this drivel.

Normally KB........

[mstriumph]

Are you going senile? Your posts are getting more and more bizarre. That's exactly whats she's implying- with a "don't get involved its not my problem" attitude. A remembrance thread is supposed to be about honouring the memory of the people who died doing what they thought was the right thing - not about soap boxing with inflammatory comments.

Hush child and listen to your elders (and, in this case, betters).

I did not imply that .... I'm not much of a hand at pussy-footing, if I had intended to convey what you inferred I would have come right out and said it.

As for your other drivel ... I started this thread so I decided what it was about - if I haven't yet exhausted your tiny attention span (probably an indication of similar deficiencies elsewhere, but I digress...) go back and READ my introductory post. Move your lips if it makes it easier, that's OK, we'll wait ...

Now, if you want to go off and start a Remembrance Day thread full of warm fuzzies, pics of innocent young, fresh-faced kiddies waving flags as our brave (and fully-informed) boys march off to "defend us" in someone else's country then fine. Feel free.

Is that straight-talking enough for you?

[mstriumph]

given that he was financed by jews in england... as a presumably english mongrel, you should be.

they were probably financing both sides, as was everyone else ... money has no conscience, profit has no patriotism and, as someone cleverer than me (yes, there are some) once said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" :rolleyes:

[mstriumph]

This is exactly why remembrance threads and politics threads should be seperate.

good grief :facepalm: how old ARE you? Twelve? :laugh:

[mstriumph]

where do you find this drivel.

erm, history books?

[mstriumph]

Agree with " lest we forget"

Had Britain not declared war on Germany its highly likely the Germans would have won in Europe as they probably would have beaten the Russians not having to fight on two fronts................

Yes
and here we are, all those years later, with Germany the prime mover (read "winner") in the European common market.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, merely building on what you've said to point out that, really, we've arrived at the same place anyway?

[Voltaire]

Yes
and here we are, all those years later, with Germany the prime mover (read "winner") in the European common market.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, merely building on what you've said to point out that, really, we've arrived at the same place anyway?

In the end maybe, but the picture could have been different.
Western Europe under Nazi rule, Eastern Europe under Communist rule, Isolated and inwards looking America, Japanese controlled East.
Europe seems to have the 'tribal' thing out of its system, last event was Yugoslavia.
Seems mankind is doomed to this path of tribes, nation building,nationalism, expansion, wars.

The French could be up there with the Germans if they did not take 2 hours for lunch and only work 37 hours.....hmmmmm

[Murray]

we've arrived at the same place anyway?

Not really. We still have an Israel which wouldn't be here now if Hitler had taken over Europe.

[Akzle]

Not really. We still have an Israel which wouldn't be here now if Hitler had taken over Europe.like that would be a bad thing??

yurp invented israel to gtfo its jews, unfortunately they didn't all leave.
and i think you'll find it's more correctly known as 'the occupied terrortories of palestine'
fucken jew cunts.

[Voltaire]

like that would be a bad thing??

yurp invented israel to gtfo its jews, unfortunately they didn't all leave.
and i think you'll find it's more correctly known as 'the occupied terrortories of palestine'
fucken jew cunts.

i tahaetia tenei whenua e te english.....me te shit:rolleyes:

[Akzle]

i tahaetia tenei whenua e te english.....me te shit:rolleyes:

well, they haven't actually stolen anything, they just have claims... to titles... which they made up...

i have claims too...

[Murray]

like that would be a bad thing??

yurp invented israel to gtfo its jews, unfortunately they didn't all leave.
and i think you'll find it's more correctly known as 'the occupied terrortories of palestine'
fucken jew cunts.

Thanks for the red rep and yes my bikes (all 3) are registered.

I refrain from red repping people but here you go

[Akzle]

I refrain from red repping people but here you go

i normally refrain from giving a fuck, but... no, wait, don't give a fuck.

[Ocean1]

nice try but inadmissible ... there's a whole (very lucrative) industry based on making people's choices for them ... the acceptable name for it is advertising... when governments do it, the more sinister (and accurate) name is brainwashing

You could call it that. If you wanted to influence someone's choices.

Now see if you can actually listen this time. They chose to fight to preserve a government that simply asked them to, because the alternative was likely to be a government that told them to.

And your claim that they were too young/inexperienced/uninformed/stupid to be allowed to make that choice themselves aligns you firmly with those they defeated all those years ago.

Case closed.

[Ocean1]

What we should Remember on Remembrance Day is just how we much can learn from the past…and just how little changes in the future if we don’t learn from the past.


War solves nothing and changes precious little!

:facepalm:

[oldrider]

You could call it that. If you wanted to influence someone's choices.

Now see if you can actually listen this time. They chose to fight to preserve a government that simply asked them to, because the alternative was likely to be a government that told them to.

And your claim that they were too young/inexperienced/uninformed/stupid to be allowed to make that choice themselves aligns you firmly with those they defeated all those years ago.

Case closed.

A few little war time facts that I remember.

WW2 we (NZ) had a Labour government, the prime minister had been a conscientious objector in WW1 but suddenly he was happy to apply conscription for WW2! :yes:

His name was Peter Fraser. (look him up)

He sent men and women to war because where Britain goes NZ goes and of course he didn't have to go this time!

Then when Japan attacked us (because USA forced their hand) the NZ PM did not bring our troops home to defend us, he left them with Churchill defending Europe!

Australia brought their troops back to fight the Japanese and America based themselves training in NZ and fought their way back up from here!

Japs were attacking Australia and were around NZ, I saw a real (armed) Japanese float plane (launched off a submarine) fly over Woodville when I was a kid.

A Harvard was sent from Ohakea to track the spy plane but it was not armed so maybe he didn't try too hard, two Harvards were scrambled but only one went in pursuit!

I saw the Harvard fly over as well after the float plane!

My relatives were building an air-raid shelter at the time the plane flew over and it caused a bit of a panic among them.

An ex neighbour and friend (who is still alive) saw the actual submarine from the ferry he was travelling home on while on leave from the air force.

The Germans laid mines and sank ships around NZ waters near Auckland too!

Some people think we were in a benign safe place but history will tell you that it was closer than most people think! :shifty:

[jonbuoy]

Yes
and here we are, all those years later, with Germany the prime mover (read "winner") in the European common market.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, merely building on what you've said to point out that, really, we've arrived at the same place anyway?

Are you really that thick that you compare Angela Merkel with Hitler? Germany is where it is because the Germans have worked hard and the German government have been sensible with the budgets.

I wonder how welcome half these posts would be in an Anzac Day thread?

[jonbuoy]

Hush child and listen to your elders (and, in this case, betters).

I did not imply that .... I'm not much of a hand at pussy-footing, if I had intended to convey what you inferred I would have come right out and said it.

As for your other drivel ... I started this thread so I decided what it was about - if I haven't yet exhausted your tiny attention span (probably an indication of similar deficiencies elsewhere, but I digress...) go back and READ my introductory post. Move your lips if it makes it easier, that's OK, we'll wait ...

Now, if you want to go off and start a Remembrance Day thread full of warm fuzzies, pics of innocent young, fresh-faced kiddies waving flags as our brave (and fully-informed) boys march off to "defend us" in someone else's country then fine. Feel free.

Is that straight-talking enough for you?

So what was the point of the thread? If you think you can stay at home and the rest of the world won't bother you unless you bother it your sadly mistaken.

I guess in your opinion the Dutch did the right thing in Srebrenica? After all what's the point in risking your life for someone in a another country? Thankfully all those years ago younger and smarter people than you did the right thing. Do you really think Hitler and Hirohito would have just ignored Australia and NZ?

[James Deuce]

Neither Hitler nor Tojo had the logistical capability to put significant numbers of troops on the ground in NZ or Australia. Milne Bay was an attempt to bully Australia into quitting WW2 to deny the U.S. friendly territory in the STH Pacific and Indian Oceans. NZ was expected to follow suit. Everyone seems to forget that Japan's main fight in WW 2 was China. The pacific was a sideshow in comparison. There is a military maxim that says it takes 1000 men to put 1 man on the ground 10000 miles away.

[Voltaire]

I was in Vietnam recently and there is a prime example of how futile wars are.
40 years on the USA is their biggest trading partner, most of the vehicles on the road are Japanese.
The Govt there is self elected and on the face of it communist but thats about it.
Very little sign of Marxism that I could see.

The US spends billions on the returned servicemen rehab and healthcare, as well as billions in Vietnam clearing up mines and agent orange.

Probably all going to happen again in Iraq.

[mstriumph]

..........................

The French could be up there with the Germans if they did not take 2 hours for lunch and only work 37 hours.....hmmmmm

I KNEW there just had to be something I liked about the French .... :drinknsin

[mstriumph]

Not really. We still have an Israel which wouldn't be here now if Hitler had taken over Europe.

Actually, the circumstances of the modern state of Israel's birth and survival were so bizarre that I'm not sure it couldn't survive even Hitler ...perhaps there IS such a thing as divine intervention

not that I believe in it myself, of course (otherwise we wouldn't have the pollies we have ;) )

[mstriumph]

You could call it that. If you wanted to influence someone's choices.

Now see if you can actually listen this time. They chose to fight to preserve a government that simply asked them to, because the alternative was likely to be a government that told them to.

And your claim that they were too young/inexperienced/uninformed/stupid to be allowed to make that choice themselves aligns you firmly with those they defeated all those years ago.

Case closed.

Tsk tsk ... can't believe you are naturally this obtuse so you must be attempting to push my buttons :confused: OK, I'll play ... your points in order:-

1. If advertising (or the more sinister brainwashing) DIDN'T work, it wouldn't still be with us ... and flourishing. I don't think you can argue that multi-nationals and politicians (to name but a few) participate in it for the general good or the benefit of humanity.

2. Don't narrow the argument - I've been talking about the conflict over the last century specifically as it impinges on my own allegiances NZ, Aus., UK.
The conversation mostly wasn't "D'you want to go overseas and possibly get irreparably damaged, all expenses paid? (until, of course, you get back - if you do - and find that there're no jobs, support or (in some instances) even a welcome for you, your family is split, your kids don't know you (or worse, aren't yours) and, IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE, those that managed NOT to go (pollies included) have fared much better than you and have a future you probably have no hope of attaining) or we might send you anyway. The bastards in charge used every tool, blandishment, slight of hand and sneaky manoeuvre to achieve their political agenda.
Didn't they.

3. Naughty :bs: I've never either implied or claimed "... that they were too young/inexperienced/uninformed/stupid to be allowed to make that choice themselves" - what I have said, and still maintain, is that their youth and vulnerability were cynically taken advantage of and their better natures exploited to serve the ends of others TO THEIR DETRIMENT. Can you seriously believe it's OK for politicians to do that?

4. OK - button pushed "aligns you firmly with those they defeated all those years ago" - You are SERIOUSLY aligning me with the Nazis? SERIOUSLY? A small, humble and heartfelt apology for that is in order to restore my previous regard for you. Because you are seriously out of line.

[mstriumph]

Are you really that thick that you compare Angela Merkel with Hitler? Germany is where it is because the Germans have worked hard and the German government have been sensible with the budgets.

I wonder how welcome half these posts would be in an Anzac Day thread?

Oh dear.
It continues to bother me (slightly) that you still really don't get it ...
but not enough for me to explain the situation in words of one syllable and pictures (and thereby forego the pleasure of pointing and laughing when you bumble through yet one more inanity).:msn-wink:

Good job on the grammar and spelling this time, though.

[oldrider]

Actually, the circumstances of the modern state of Israel's birth and survival were so bizarre that I'm not sure it couldn't survive even Hitler ...perhaps there IS such a thing as divine intervention

Some scribes even suggest that Hitler was merely a porn in the great saga of Israel ... a totally absorbing subject if you dare to explore it! :shifty:

"Anti-Semitic" .... is the immediate cry of the ill-informed! :confused:

Link:http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/07/23/why-crying-wolf-on-anti-semitism-harms-us-all/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

[mstriumph]

So what was the point of the thread? If you think you can stay at home and the rest of the world won't bother you unless you bother it your sadly mistaken.

I guess in your opinion the Dutch did the right thing in Srebrenica has to do with WWs 1, 2 and similar?(Cyrillic: СребреницаSrebrenica? After all what's the point in risking your life for someone in a another country? Thankfully all those years ago younger and smarter people than you did the right thing. Do you really think Hitler and Hirohito would have just ignored Australia and NZ?

Look again at the thread title and first post (you are reminded that this is 'open book' and all the answers to this pop quiz are contained in the material already given to you ... ).

Please explain:-

what the actions (or lack thereof) of the Dutch in Srebrenica has to do with WWs 1, 2 and similar? (the thread, remember?)
the meaning of "risking your life for someone in a another country? - who's life? where? why are 'you' there in the first place?",
How being dead, maimed and otherwise seriously disadvantaged because some politician asked or directed you to do something politically and otherwise advantagious to them qualifies as 'smart' in the context under discussion,
how you feel it's justified somehow (your comments about Hitler and Hirohito) to attack another country just because you feel that it might, possibly, perhaps become your enemy at some undefined future point.



Sorry the rest of you - I can't stop this - it's too entrancing (which makes me a REALLY bad person, right? but at least I don't kick real puppies ...)

[Banditbandit]

So what was the point of the thread? If you think you can stay at home and the rest of the world won't bother you unless you bother it your sadly mistaken.

I guess in your opinion the Dutch did the right thing in Srebrenica? After all what's the point in risking your life for someone in a another country? Thankfully all those years ago younger and smarter people than you did the right thing. Do you really think Hitler and Hirohito would have just ignored Australia and NZ?

If you bothered to read and comprehend mstriumph's first post you would have seen that she has served time in the armed forces .. she was prepared to put her life on the line for our country ..

Can you make the same claim ???

[bogan]

Seems some have already forgotten. We remember them for giving the greatest sacrifice of all, for the country they loved; do not seek to taint their memory with implications they made the wrong choice.

While contemplating where humanity went wrong in order for such a conflict to arise is worth doing and learning from, it is better left for another time; this shit is reminiscent of those twats who tried to do white poppy day on anzac day a few years back.


Some scribes even suggest that Hitler was merely a porn in the great saga of Israel ...

Hitler porn? ewwww.

[mstriumph]

Some scribes even suggest that Hitler was merely a porn in the great saga of Israel ... a totally absorbing subject if you dare to explore it! :shifty:

"Anti-Semitic" .... is the immediate cry of the ill-informed! :confused:

Link:http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/07/23/why-crying-wolf-on-anti-semitism-harms-us-all/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

Wow!
I looooooooooove the thought of Hitler as a porn star :rolleyes: just think, we could see for ourselves if the claims of the old Brit wartime song were true or not ..... ?!

Seriously - he's right ... in some quarters 'Israel' seems to have become equated with 'Motherhood' and viewed in the same idealistic light ... My own Mother fell far short of that ideal in some ways and it'd be unrealistic to think that Israel (being comprised of human beings - a far from infallible species) didn't too.

Truth is, there are many flavours of Jews in Israel and some of them leave as bitter a taste as any other extremists anywhere.

Interestingly, the online definition of Semitic differs from the way in which it's commonly used:

Semitic
sɪˈmɪtɪk/
adjective
adjective: Semitic

1.
relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family.
2.
relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.

Not many people seem to know that (channelling that Brit bloke who played Alfie in the movie of the same name whilst most of us were just a twinkle ..... :rolleyes:

[mstriumph]

like that would be a bad thing??

yurp invented israel to gtfo its jews, unfortunately they didn't all leave.
and i think you'll find it's more correctly known as 'the occupied terrortories of palestine'
fucken jew cunts.

Nice to see you at Synagogue again last Friday night, Fella ;) keep it up!

[mstriumph]

well, they haven't actually stolen anything, they just have claims... to titles... which they made up...

i have claims too...

I have a title .... oh, sorry, thought this was 'one upmanship 101'

[Oscar]

Some scribes even suggest that Hitler was merely a porn in the great saga of Israel ... a totally absorbing subject if you dare to explore it! :shifty:

"Anti-Semitic" .... is the immediate cry of the ill-informed! :confused:

Link:http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/07/23/why-crying-wolf-on-anti-semitism-harms-us-all/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

This forum is full of ignorant twats, but you my friend, are the King of the Fuckwits.
Someone starts a thread to honour the dead who fought for us, and it soon becomes a cesspit of half arsed opinions.
You guys have no shame.

[mstriumph]

.......... do not seek to taint their memory with implications they made the wrong choice.

.......................

For my part no disrespect whatsoever intended for those that went ... only bitterness and contempt for those that sent them while they stayed safe at home.

The deeds done, the heroism on the battlefield, the courage with which those that went continued in the face of truly horrific circumstances, these things are not in the slightest diminished by the reasons they went, even if those reasons were misguided.

[Akzle]

This forum is full of ignorant twats, but you my friend, are the King of the Fuckwits.
Someone starts a thread to honour the dead who fought for us, and it soon becomes a cesspit of half arsed opinions.
You guys have no shame.
nononononono son. half arsed opinions aren't normally derived from verifiable fact.

dead honoured? like fucking hell. you want to honour them you should be out there shooting camel jockeys or some shit, you know, fighting the good fight...

OR, shootin fucking politicians and jewcunts who drive society away from the ideal of peace and freedom the soldiers may or may not have believed they were serving.

i pick the latter. honour by internet? fuckin 'ell, have you no shame.

Nice to see you at Synagogue again last Friday night, Fella ;) keep it up!

shit, did anyone else see me <_<
more importantly, did they find the explosives?

[Oscar]

nononononono son. half arsed opinions aren't normally derived from verifiable fact.

dead honoured? like fucking hell. you want to honour them you should be out there shooting camel jockeys or some shit, you know, fighting the good fight...

OR, shootin fucking politicians and jewcunts who drive society away from the ideal of peace and freedom the soldiers may or may not have believed they were serving.

i pick the latter. honour by internet? fuckin 'ell, have you no shame.


shit, did anyone else see me <_<
more importantly, did they find the explosives?

..and right on cue - Prince of the Fuckwits.

[mstriumph]

This forum is full of ignorant twats, but you my friend, are the King of the Fuckwits.
Someone starts a thread to honour the dead who fought for us, and it soon becomes a cesspit of half arsed opinions.
You guys have no shame.

Love it!
Firstly, sorry, I don't think I want to be your friend.

Secondly, if I were of the fuckwit mentality, that'd be Queen (or at least Princess) of that happy band ... which means YOU, as one of the rank and file, would have to call me M'aam :msn-wink: As it is, marks for reading the symbol at the top of my posts = zero

Thirdly, t'was I that started the thread (thanks for acknowleging that I'm a 'someone') and my initial post was obviously soo much broader than honouring those that died that it's resulted in a really interesting input of views, most of them on topic, from all quarters (well, not from Akzle, admittedly but every thread is entitled to a little light relief?). So, marks for doing you homework before spouting off = zero

Lastly, and seriously ...... we "have no shame"??! To the contrary, it's fairly obvious from most of the posts here that the posters, me included, are bowed down by shame - shame that those conflicts happened for so little, shame that so many were hurt so horrendously and shame that there's nothing to stop the same senseless slaughter happening again.

So, total marks for this round = zero
Would you like to play again?

[mstriumph]

....................
shit, did anyone else see me <_<
more importantly, did they find the explosives?

:yes: check your exhaust :shutup:

[Oscar]

Love it!
Firstly, sorry, I don't think I want to be your friend.



I'm sure I'll get over that.
Perhaps you could go back and change the thread title, as I admit that's the only bit of your drivel that I read, (at least, initially).
Whereas I can see how you might want to discuss the whys and wherefores of going to war, these thread usually revert to the old fuckwit and the P addict from down the line saying "the jews did it".

As for doing my homework, reading the shite that some of these idjuts spew forth makes my brain hurt, and the fact that you expected get any sense by starting a thread here makes you even sillier than your bloated prose would at first suggest.

[Akzle]

"the jews did it".

As for doing my homework, reading makes my brain hurt,

prove me wrong buddy. i'll give you a gold star...(on your report, that is...)

[mstriumph]

I'm sure I'll get over that.
Perhaps you could go back and change the thread title, as I admit that's the only bit of your drivel that I read, (at least, initially).
Whereas I can see how you might want to discuss the whys and wherefores of going to war, these thread usually revert to the old fuckwit and the P addict from down the line saying "the jews did it".

As for doing my homework, reading the shite that some of these idjuts spew forth makes my brain hurt, and the fact that you expected get any sense by starting a thread here makes you even sillier than your bloated prose would at first suggest.

It's the thought that you may have had to call me Ma'am, isn't it? Don't panic, the circumstances don't apply.

'Silly'? On a good day, mebbe ... mostly I can pass for normal (whatever that is) :banana:


(and I did get quite a lot of sense in this thread ... actually)

[Oscar]

prove me wrong buddy. i'll give you a gold star...(on your report, that is...)

Actually that's quite funny.

[imdying]

If you bothered to read and comprehend mstriumph's first post you would have seen that she has served time in the armed forces .. she was prepared to put her life on the line for our country ..

Can you make the same claim ???You make it sound like some heroic thing? Soldiers are just the people society has deemed to have the least amount of value, and therefore sent off first to die :rolleyes:

Fight for us? Fight for money and power more like it. If the world was run by commie asians, crazy sand niggers, or jew burning Germans, the world wouldn't be worse, it would just be different. To believe anything different is just ignorance stoked by the people after said money and power, with a side helping xenophobia.

No matter who is in charge, some poor section of society is going to be getting a raw deal... voluntarily paying in blood so that your team can be the deciders of who is going to get fucked over has to be the stupidest fucking concept ever. Anybody in the military, past and present, is nothing but a mug.

[Banditbandit]

prove me wrong buddy. i'll give you a gold star...



Oooo .. pick me pick me .. I wanna gold star ...


This one ...

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/tq/290592969.jpg


http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/classic-vintage/auction-804517881.htm

[Banditbandit]

You make it sound like some heroic thing? Soldiers are just the people society has deemed to have the least amount of value, and therefore sent off first to die :rolleyes:

Fight for us? Fight for money and power more like it. If the world was run by commie asians, crazy sand niggers, or jew burning Germans, the world wouldn't be worse, it would just be different. To believe anything different is just ignorance stoked by the people after said money and power, with a side helping xenophobia.

No matter who is in charge, some poor section of society is going to be getting a raw deal... voluntarily paying in blood so that your team can be the deciders of who is going to get fucked over has to be the stupidest fucking concept ever. Anybody in the military, past and present, is nothing but a mug.

Yeah yeah yeah .. I get all that ... ('cept the "mug" part .. I disagree ... )

She signed up ... she put on the uniform ... that means she was prepared to fight and die for our country ... heroic ??? Fuck knows ... heroic is not the point ...

How many of the armchair critics and keyboard warriors out there can say they have done that ??? Huh .. Huh .. how many of you ???

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP !!!!

[Ocean1]

Tsk tsk ... can't believe you are naturally this obtuse so you must be attempting to push my buttons :confused: OK, I'll play ... your points in order:-

1. If advertising (or the more sinister brainwashing) DIDN'T work, it wouldn't still be with us ... and flourishing. I don't think you can argue that multi-nationals and politicians (to name but a few) participate in it for the general good or the benefit of humanity.

2. Don't narrow the argument - I've been talking about the conflict over the last century specifically as it impinges on my own allegiances NZ, Aus., UK.
The conversation mostly wasn't "D'you want to go overseas and possibly get irreparably damaged, all expenses paid? (until, of course, you get back - if you do - and find that there're no jobs, support or (in some instances) even a welcome for you, your family is split, your kids don't know you (or worse, aren't yours) and, IN EVERY WAY POSSIBLE, those that managed NOT to go (pollies included) have fared much better than you and have a future you probably have no hope of attaining) or we might send you anyway. The bastards in charge used every tool, blandishment, slight of hand and sneaky manoeuvre to achieve their political agenda.
Didn't they.

3. Naughty :bs: I've never either implied or claimed "... that they were too young/inexperienced/uninformed/stupid to be allowed to make that choice themselves" - what I have said, and still maintain, is that their youth and vulnerability were cynically taken advantage of and their better natures exploited to serve the ends of others TO THEIR DETRIMENT. Can you seriously believe it's OK for politicians to do that?

4. OK - button pushed "aligns you firmly with those they defeated all those years ago" - You are SERIOUSLY aligning me with the Nazis? SERIOUSLY? A small, humble and heartfelt apology for that is in order to restore my previous regard for you. Because you are seriously out of line.

Amongst which the single salient point is that they chose to serve. No amount of advertising or political rhetoric can be construed as compulsion. Can it?

So, again, forget the hand wringing over what you perceive to be undue political influence, either you're for personal freedom of choice, or you're not.

Which is it?

[Kickaha]

She signed up ... she put on the uniform ... that means she was prepared to fight and die for our country ...

You don't have to sign up or put on a uniform to be prepared to do that

[98tls]

A thread titled "lest we forget" and then all this shit:tugger:If the op feels so strongly then fuck off down to your local and gob off if indeed joining the services means your prepared to sacrifice all etc then a smack in the mouth and told to shut the fuck up is merely a trifle.

[mstriumph]

Amongst which the single salient point is that they chose to serve. No amount of advertising or political rhetoric can be construed as compulsion. Can it?

So, again, forget the hand wringing over what you perceive to be undue political influence, either you're for personal freedom of choice, or you're not.

Which is it?

*waits for apology*

[mstriumph]

A thread titled "lest we forget" and then all this shit:tugger:If the op feels so strongly then fuck off down to your local and gob off if indeed joining the services means your prepared to sacrifice all etc then a smack in the mouth and told to shut the fuck up is merely a trifle.

:facepalm: who does your dog think you are?

[mstriumph]

Actually that's quite funny.

he knows - he's deep

[mstriumph]

....................
No matter who is in charge, some poor section of society is going to be getting a raw deal... voluntarily paying in blood so that your team can be the deciders of who is going to get fucked over has to be the stupidest fucking concept ever. ............

I love you and want you to have my babies ...

[mstriumph]

..............
She signed up ... she put on the uniform ... that means she was prepared to fight and die for our country ... heroic ??? Fuck knows ... heroic is not the point ...

..... not at all heroic - just young, green and idealistic .... it was a long time ago.



afterthought - can I have a go on your goldstar if Akzle makes good on his offer?

[98tls]

:facepalm: who does your dog think you are?

He doesnt give a fuck about me at the moment seems hes picked up the smell of some bitch on heat leaking all over the internet,chow eh will pass on your good wishes.

[mstriumph]

He doesnt give a fuck about me at the moment seems hes picked up the smell of some bitch on heat leaking all over the internet,chow eh will pass on your good wishes.

he doesn't care about you?
'nuff said.

[Banditbandit]

afterthought - can I have a go on your goldstar if Akzle makes good on his offer?

Rule 1 - No-one rides my bikes but me ...

Rule 2 - See Rule 1 ...

[jonbuoy]

Look again at the thread title and first post (you are reminded that this is 'open book' and all the answers to this pop quiz are contained in the material already given to you ... ).

Please explain:-

what the actions (or lack thereof) of the Dutch in Srebrenica has to do with WWs 1, 2 and similar? (the thread, remember?)
the meaning of "risking your life for someone in a another country? - who's life? where? why are 'you' there in the first place?",
How being dead, maimed and otherwise seriously disadvantaged because some politician asked or directed you to do something politically and otherwise advantagious to them qualifies as 'smart' in the context under discussion,
how you feel it's justified somehow (your comments about Hitler and Hirohito) to attack another country just because you feel that it might, possibly, perhaps become your enemy at some undefined future point.



Sorry the rest of you - I can't stop this - it's too entrancing (which makes me a REALLY bad person, right? but at least I don't kick real puppies ...)

If you can't see the relationship between 1,2 and 3 then your beyond help.

Troops were sent overseas by politicians during the Bosnian war to protect civilians.

Some of those troops died thousands of others risked their lives trying to protect civilians.

The ones that died are also part of Remembrance Sunday. And are therefore completely relevant. Unless you think otherwise?

The Dutch didn't step in and try and prevent the fall of the city - not their problem I guess. As a result thousands of civilians died. Do you think that was the right decision?

Remembrance Sunday is not just about WW1/WW2.

Do you know anything about Hitlers plan for Germania?? Why do you think he was expanding into Poland?

[FJRider]

Look again at the thread title and first post ...

"Lest We Forget" ...



For those that post on Kiwibiker please remember ... This is a New Zealand Web site.

In my early teens ... I attended an ANZAC day Dawn Parade that was also attended by protesters that claimed the day was celebrating the War Monger's that sent or went. Few attended any ANZAC parades that did not have friends/Family connections to those that went/died to/in those war zones.

Public opinion on ANZAC days ... has changed considerably since then. But WHY ... WHAT HAS CAUSED THIS CHANGE of OPINION ... ???

Most of those that went (THEN ... and in later years) did so simply ... out of ... and in the interest/intent of a great (Government paid) Overseas adventure.

Fact of reality ... ANYBODY entering an active service war zone may not come home alive. ALL those that DO go to such areas ... KNOW this.


Many signing the dotted line hope they'll never have to go. But .. Many hope they DO get the chance to go.

AND ... after years of training ... MANY (in uniform) want to put that training into practice.

And many (in uniform) do not.



The reasons ... "For Going" were THEIRS ... and ... THEY had THEIR reasons. Those reasons were NOT necessarily the official version. Strangely ... often for selfish reasons.

It was always a personal choice.

The results of their actions can not always be defined ... or understood. But the result for those that remain ... could be different now had they NOT gone.

Political decisions are usually made for the greater good of the Country .. and in/with support of/from her Allies/Friends.

Stand by your friends ... you need ALL the help you can get at times ... and you never know WHEN those times will be.

[mstriumph]

...............
Fact of reality ... ANYBODY entering an active service war zone may not come home alive. ALL those that DO go to such areas ... KNOW this............................

unfortunately, you know it intellectually but, when in your late teens, your gut still thinks you are bulletproof "It'll never happen to me" - I can remember feeling that way, it was a while ago (I wasn't always as cynical as I am now).


..
Political decisions are usually made for the greater good of the Country ... .
I liked the rest of your post but you and I will have to agree to disagree on this bit; there are many, many reasons for political decisions but, from observation (unless our leaders are truly stupid) the one you've suggested is a long way down the list.

[James Deuce]

Political decisions are made to enhance the economic status of those who either have the ear of Government or bought the ear of the Government. The "Good of the Country" does not equate to a meaningfully employed and properous populace.

[Ocean1]

Political decisions are made to enhance the economic status of those who either have the ear of Government or bought the ear of the Government. The "Good of the Country" does not equate to a meaningfully employed and properous populace.

That.

Or they've got the weird idea that in order to actually obtain discressionary income they first need an income, and the only place that comes from is the "productive sector", so it literally pays to not cripple the horse providing your apples before you bite the hand etc.

[Banditbandit]

, so it literally pays to not cripple the horse providing your apples before you bite the hand etc.

Fuck - that must have been some seriously good shit you took ...

Strangely, coming from you, that makes no sense at all ...

[Banditbandit]

Political decisions are made to enhance the economic status of those who either have the ear of Government or bought the ear of the Government. The "Good of the Country" does not equate to a meaningfully employed and properous populace.

Exactly .. "the good of the country" or "the good of the economy" are catch phrases designed to have the sheep populace say "Yes Sir ..."

[bogan]

Exactly .. "the good of the country" or "the good of the economy" are catch phrases designed to have the sheep populace say "Yes Sir ..."

The irony is you seem to think that the good of the country is what you think it is, not what the country thinks it is... I mean maybe the sheep populace actually have a right to their opinion :shit:

[Banditbandit]

The irony is you seem to think that the good of the country is what you think it is, not what the country thinks it is... I mean maybe the sheep populace actually have a right to their opinion :shit:

No, not at all - but I certainly think that "the good of the country" is NOT determined by politicians and propaganda merchants ..

[bogan]

No, not at all - but I certainly think that "the good of the country" is NOT determined by politicians and propaganda merchants ..

Who better to determine it than our elected officials though?

[Banditbandit]

Who better to determine it than our elected officials though?

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1209/holy-mary-facepalm-mary-god-jesus-mother-demotivational-posters-1347324437.jpg

[mashman]

That.

Or they've got the weird idea that in order to actually obtain discressionary income they first need an income, and the only place that comes from is the "productive sector", so it literally pays to not cripple the horse providing your apples before you bite the hand etc.

So don't fuck the people over because they're providing you with your income. You do realise that fucking people over is akin to crippling the horse etc...? Of course you don't, my apologies for insinuating such a thing.

[bogan]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1209/holy-mary-facepalm-mary-god-jesus-mother-demotivational-posters-1347324437.jpg

So, you don't have a better answer then? Thought not.

[Banditbandit]

Who better to determine it than our elected officials though?


So, you don't have a better answer then? Thought not.


You are clearly too stupid to see what my answer was ...

[bogan]

You are clearly too stupid to see what my answer was ...

Those willing to learn with an open mind are not stupid, only those who refuse to teach with one :msn-wink:

Your answer seems to be, not those in power, and not those sheeple who are corrupted by those in power, which is basically another way of saying 'me', which is basically another way of saying 'me' is an moron. But I may have misinterpreted you, hence why I asked explicitly; and gave you the benefit of replacing that answer with none...

[Banditbandit]

Those willing to learn with an open mind are not stupid, only those who refuse to teach with one :msn-wink:

Your answer seems to be, not those in power,

True ..


and not those sheeple who are corrupted by those in power,

True ... but that is not the whole population ...




which is basically another way of saying 'me', which is basically another way of saying 'me' is an moron.

Not true - because I am not the only person unaffected by the state propaganda machine.

By the way - your English is crap ...

http://www.rottenecards.com/ecards/Rottenecards_84273565_jhqw3687v9.png



But I may have misinterpreted you, hence why I asked explicitly; and gave you the benefit of replacing that answer with none...

The people who get elected have proved themselves to be incapable of deciding what is in the country's best interest .. why would we trust them now???

[bogan]

True ..



True ... but that is not the whole population ...





Not true - because I am not the only person unaffected by the state propaganda machine.

By the way - your English is crap ...

http://www.rottenecards.com/ecards/Rottenecards_84273565_jhqw3687v9.png




The people who get elected have proved themselves to be incapable of deciding what is in the country's best interest .. why would we trust them now???

But how do you determine who is? The answer to that usual boils down to, whoever agrees with 'me'.

By the way, that was the joke. I could put a picture in with a stick figure labeled 'you', and an object flying above labeled 'the joke' if you need it?

According to who? You and your chosen followers again? Sure, they don't make the right choice every time but I think "incapable of deciding what is in the country's best interest" is a bit of an overstatement.

[Banditbandit]

But how do you determine who is? The answer to that usual boils down to, whoever agrees with 'me'.

By the way, that was the joke. I could put a picture in with a stick figure labeled 'you', and an object flying above labeled 'the joke' if you need it?

According to who? You and your chosen followers again? Sure, they don't make the right choice every time but I think "incapable of deciding what is in the country's best interest" is a bit of an overstatement.

:killngme


Of course 'who decides?" is the question ... and no, I don't expect it to be me and the people who agree with me ... clearly, that would not be what the majority of people in Godzone would want ... what I am prepared to say i wrong is the use of the propaganda system by the PTB to brainwash people ...

And I sincerely believe that if everyone things like me then no-one is truly thinking ...

I don't have all the answers - I am quite prepared to say when I don't know and also accept when I am wrong ... I am prepared to put up my point of view .. but if people don't agree then hei aha ...

I have learnt over the years (after many years of participation) that politics is best treated as a spectator sport - and then only frequently ..

[bogan]

I don't have all the answers - I am quite prepared to say when I don't know

Then perhaps you should have said that 7 posts ago instead of posting some silly picture.

[FJRider]

unfortunately, you know it intellectually but, when in your late teens, your gut still thinks you are bulletproof "It'll never happen to me" - I can remember feeling that way, it was a while ago (I wasn't always as cynical as I am now).

I'm older ... now I just HOPE it'll never happen to me ...


I liked the rest of your post but you and I will have to agree to disagree on this bit; there are many, many reasons for political decisions but, from observation (unless our leaders are truly stupid) the one you've suggested is a long way down the list.

For the greater good of the country ... it takes no account of the individual.

Elected individuals make those decisions on OUR behalf. The mere fact you did NOT vote for these individuals ... changes nothing.

If you were an "Elected Individual" ... I might vote for you. It would probably be a wasted vote though ... (unless you plan to reduce the tax on alcohol)

[Akzle]

I might vote for you. It would probably be a wasted vote though ... (unless you plan to reduce the tax on alcohol)

vote akzle.

[mstriumph]

If you can't see the relationship between 1,2 and 3 then your beyond help.

...........................
Remembrance Sunday is not just about WW1/WW2.

.

agree totally
BUT no point in remembering if we don't learn from what happened. I'll go further, I think we OWE it to the dead to learn from what happened.

[mstriumph]

..........

If you were an "Elected Individual" ... I might vote for you. It would probably be a wasted vote though ... (unless you plan to reduce the tax on alcohol)

I'd run on a platform of improving travel (better roads, higher (or variable) limits), graded driving licences (under my regime you'd need a different set of skills and separate class of licence to drive a 4 wheel drive)and

removing the GST from life's essentials ... I was thinking food but, on mature consideration, who am I to define 'essential' ? :rolleyes:

[mstriumph]

Who better to determine it than our elected officials though?

you are fishing, aren't you :laugh:

[bogan]

you are fishing, aren't you :laugh:

You want to try for a better answer than buffoonbuffoon did then?

[FJRider]

I'd run on a platform of improving travel (better roads, higher (or variable) limits), graded driving licences (under my regime you'd need a different set of skills and separate class of licence to drive a 4 wheel drive)and

MY thoughts ...

!: A Motorcycle as a compulsory first owned vehicle.
2: More corners on newly built roads.
3: Motorcycle ONLY roads implemented.
4: A separate class of license for hondas.

[Akzle]

MY thoughts ...

!: A Motorcycle as a compulsory first owned vehicle.
2: More corners on newly built roads.
3: Motorcycle ONLY roads implemented.
4: A separate class of license for hondas.

vote akzle.

[FJRider]

vote akzle.

I've heard that ...


But the party (as yet un-named) leader ... is ... ummmmmm .... less than perfect ... :calm:

[Akzle]

I've heard that ...


But the party (as yet un-named) leader ... is ... ummmmmm .... less than perfect ... :calm:

yeah, but i'll fuck shit up for science.
plus no more jews.

[TheDemonLord]

MY thoughts ...

!: A Motorcycle as a compulsory first owned vehicle.
2: More corners on newly built roads.
3: Motorcycle ONLY roads implemented.
4: A separate class of license for hondas.

Your policies need more Cowbell

[mstriumph]

MY thoughts ...

!: A Motorcycle as a compulsory first owned vehicle.
2: More corners on newly built roads.
3: Motorcycle ONLY roads implemented.
4: A separate class of license for hondas.

brilliant
add to 1: the requirement for people to survive on a bike for at least a year before they are even entitled to THINK about applying for a car licence and you run, I'll vote for YOU lol :laugh:


oh - hang on - i've just seen the last one ... I still have the very first new bike I ever owned - she's a Honda .... erm

[mstriumph]

yeah, but i'll fuck shit up for science.
plus no more jews.

c'Mon ... you can't ban your own tribe now, can you? :shifty:

[Akzle]

c'Mon ... you can't ban your own tribe now, can you? :shifty:

theyre not my kind...

[FJRider]

oh - hang on - i've just seen the last one ... I still have the very first new bike I ever owned - she's a Honda .... erm

I guess ... in the outback ... you do what you have to ... <_<

[mstriumph]

theyre not my kind...

methinks the laddie doth protest too much <_<

[mstriumph]

c'mon, admit it .... even you (enlightened) lot have pushed aside the memory of the carnage and wasted lives for yet another year ....

at the going down of the sun and in the morning??!!!

yet another broken promise

.... so what's to stop it all happening again? huh?
(bantering tone but serious question)

[Banditbandit]

.... so what's to stop it all happening again? huh?
(bantering tone but serious question)

Nothing ... WWI Or the Great War also known as The War to End All Wars ....

It's happened ever since ... the only thing that will stop it is the extinction of the human race

[bogan]

c'mon, admit it .... even you (enlightened) lot have pushed aside the memory of the carnage and wasted lives for yet another year ....

at the going down of the sun and in the morning??!!!

yet another broken promise

.... so what's to stop it all happening again? huh?
(bantering tone but serious question)

There is more to remembrance than having an online bleat.

[Akzle]

Nothing ... WWI Or the Great War also known as The War to End All Wars ....

It's happened ever since ... the only thing that will stop it is the extinction of the human race

joke:
q:what was the result of WWI?


A: WWII.


youre a sad old prick.

Its just the old white ones, should die. Then we might see some progress.

[Banditbandit]

joke:
q:what was the result of WWI?


A: WWII.


youre a sad old prick.

Its just the old white ones, should die. Then we might see some progress.



I'm sorry - which part of that was the joke again ???

Why am I a sad old prick? Just got back from two days on the road ... about 1,000ks ... what's sad about that ??? Is your bike even on the road ???

[5ive]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/013/003/dead-horse.gif

[Big Dog]

c'mon, admit it .... even you (enlightened) lot have pushed aside the memory of the carnage and wasted lives for yet another year ....

at the going down of the sun and in the morning??!!!

yet another broken promise

.... so what's to stop it all happening again? huh?
(bantering tone but serious question)

Actually I attempt to honour the memories of my grandfathers (pl) in many ways and regularly.
Including indulging in online banter without fear of prosecution or persecution for my beliefs, race or sexual preference.
Those online blatherings are free of fear of censorship or repercussion.

I may not have agreed with all the reasons for all the fighting but look around you. We live in a Utopia where the biggest baddies are poverty, ACC and road cops. None of them carry guns, or execute you in your sleep.

[FJRider]

.... so what's to stop it all happening again? huh?
(bantering tone but serious question)

Lest you forget ...

There are multinational forces fighting in (the same) war zones now ... so in essence ... it's STILL happening.

Boots on the ground ... different cause ... same result.


And plenty make money from it. As plenty did "Then" ...

[Akzle]

And plenty make money from it. As plenty did "Then" ...

ssssshhhhhhhh

dont mention teh jews.

[mstriumph]

There is more to remembrance than having an online bleat.

..... every time I go to a new town or civic building, I stop at their wall of remembrance, read the names, am saddened anew when I see several names all from the same family and contemplate the stupid, senseless waste of it all and the misery it has caused ...

and I 'bleat' about it online

what do YOU do, friend?

[mstriumph]

Actually I attempt to honour the memories of my grandfathers (pl) in many ways and regularly.
Including indulging in online banter without fear of prosecution or persecution for my beliefs, race or sexual preference.
Those online blatherings are free of fear of censorship or repercussion.

I may not have agreed with all the reasons for all the fighting but look around you. We live in a Utopia where the biggest baddies are poverty, ACC and road cops. None of them carry guns, or execute you in your sleep.

fairly said
good point

[mstriumph]

Lest you forget ...

There are multinational forces fighting in (the same) war zones now ... so in essence ... it's STILL happening.

Boots on the ground ... different cause ... same result.


And plenty make money from it. As plenty did "Then" ...

truly sad isn't it

[mstriumph]

ssssshhhhhhhh

dont mention teh jews.

truly silly

[TheDemonLord]

..... every time I go to a new town or civic building, I stop at their wall of remembrance, read the names, am saddened anew when I see several names all from the same family and contemplate the stupid, senseless waste of it all and the misery it has caused ...

and I 'bleat' about it online

what do YOU do, friend?

Suppose, I was to agree with you, all war is a stupid and senseless waste.

I will pose one question - how then do you deal with Tyrants who torture their own people, commit genocide against groups they despise, use Chemical weapons on villages they deem to be sub-human?

Yes, war is bad and people die, but sometimes the alternative is just as, if not more horrific - I will concede that not every war has been fought for such noble purposes and we don't always get it right, such is the burden of being human.

I myself have no alternative that is as effective as kick the door in, shoot the bad guys - certainly we must always try peaceful and diplomatic solutions first and foremost, but we do not have the luxury of these always working and at some point we must be prepared to use force as a final resort.

Do you have the foresight and wisdom to know when it is right to send young men to their deaths to save a greater number from persecution, torture and execution versus when it is right to sit idly by and do nothing?

As for myself - I claim neither, only that sometimes it IS right, and tragic though the deaths may be, they are remembered, not only by their families who lost loved ones, but also by those families who didn't and are forever indebted to their sacrifice.

And such a sacrifice, to us - who have never felt the heavy strain from the yoke of tyranny, may sit in our ivory tower and debate the philosophy of the ethics of war - there are those who have tasted the first morsel of freedom who would eternally argue that their sacrifice was neither stupid nor a senseless waste - and who are we to tell them otherwise?

[bogan]

..... every time I go to a new town or civic building, I stop at their wall of remembrance, read the names, am saddened anew when I see several names all from the same family and contemplate the stupid, senseless waste of it all and the misery it has caused ...

and I 'bleat' about it online

what do YOU do, friend?

Be thankful for those who have sacrificed it all for the sake of our freedom, and try to promote the same freedoms now, lest we ever need to fight for them again.

[mstriumph]

Suppose, I was to agree with you, all war is a stupid and senseless waste.

I will pose one question - how then do you deal with Tyrants who torture their own people, commit genocide against groups they despise, use Chemical weapons on villages they deem to be sub-human?

Yes, war is bad and people die, but sometimes the alternative is just as, if not more horrific - I will concede that not every war has been fought for such noble purposes and we don't always get it right, such is the burden of being human.

I myself have no alternative that is as effective as kick the door in, shoot the bad guys - certainly we must always try peaceful and diplomatic solutions first and foremost, but we do not have the luxury of these always working and at some point we must be prepared to use force as a final resort.

Do you have the foresight and wisdom to know when it is right to send young men to their deaths to save a greater number from persecution, torture and execution versus when it is right to sit idly by and do nothing?

As for myself - I claim neither, only that sometimes it IS right, and tragic though the deaths may be, they are remembered, not only by their families who lost loved ones, but also by those families who didn't and are forever indebted to their sacrifice.

And such a sacrifice, to us - who have never felt the heavy strain from the yoke of tyranny, may sit in our ivory tower and debate the philosophy of the ethics of war - there are those who have tasted the first morsel of freedom who would eternally argue that their sacrifice was neither stupid nor a senseless waste - and who are we to tell them otherwise?

self defence is always justified, mandetory even
marching in to someone else's country at the behest of a so called allie based on nothing more than suposition, smoke and mirrors ... then demonising as the 'enemy' those whose home we have invaded and killing them when they dare to defend themselves is never justified

plenty of folk don't like our systems of government (heck, I don't sometimes, but it is OURS)... how would we feel if they arrogantly marched into Auckland (or Perth) to destabalise our elected governments and install something THEY considered more appropriate?

pretty bloody-minded and vengeful, I'm thinking .... and also justified in fighting back as hard as we could?

[Akzle]

how would we feel if they arrogantly marched into Auckland (or Perth) to destabalise our elected governments and install something THEY considered more appropriate?


you mean theyll destroy auckland AND kill all the politicians and jewcunts?!
Who's hand do i shake?, where do i send the cheques?
Sign me up!

[TheDemonLord]

self defence is always justified, mandetory even
marching in to someone else's country at the behest of a so called allie based on nothing more than suposition, smoke and mirrors ... then demonising as the 'enemy' those whose home we have invaded and killing them when they dare to defend themselves is never justified

So, the Rwandan Genocide, People going round and carving up (literally) with Machetes people from the opposite tribe, not to mention all the Rape, mutilation, torture etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#Means_of_killing

were we not justified to send in troops to stop the wholesale slaughter?

If you say no, I invite you to read the accounts of what happened in Rwanda - I am a callous fuck when it comes to Gore, Torture etc, and some of the things they got up to make me feel queezy.

I would even go so far to say that it was people who share your mindset that held off sending in troops have a measure of blood on their hands for their inaction


plenty of folk don't like our systems of government (heck, I don't sometimes, but it is OURS)... how would we feel if they arrogantly marched into Auckland (or Perth) to destabalise our elected governments and install something THEY considered more appropriate?

Again, you have never experienced life under a dictatorship or a tyrannical government - sure our government piss us off, and we might bitch and moan about it. but if we do, we can sleep safely at night knowing that black clad paramilitary troops aren't going to kick our doors in at 3 in the morning, arrest us, take us to a prison site, torture us, our relatives and everyone we talked to and then execute us.

If that was happening, I think I might be a little open to the idea of someone marching into Auckland and kicking a little ass - especially if it meant I didn't have to worry about what I said, or worry about people I knew going 'missing'


pretty bloody-minded and vengeful, I'm thinking .... and also justified in fighting back as hard as we could?

Again, it is easy for us who have never experienced a tyrannical government to sit in our Ivory tower and debate about the rights and wrongs - but the reality is that there are many governments with oppressive, racist, and illegal policies (illegal here being in respect to the universal decleration of human rights) who flaunt international pressure to change

[Big Dog]

Actually most of the kiwis I know would only want to know how this was going to affect their rates and ACC. I lament the loss of enthusiasm for righteous outrage beyond an angrily worded post amongst my countrymen.

20 years ago I reckon I could have formed a militia within days under such circumstances. These days I'd probably struggle to form a unit of 6 unless it was to reinstate the internet.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[TheDemonLord]

Actually most of the kiwis I know would only want to know how this was going to affect their rates and ACC. I lament the loss of enthusiasm for righteous outrage beyond an angrily worded post amongst my countrymen.

20 years ago I reckon I could have formed a militia within days under such circumstances. These days I'd probably struggle to form a unit of 6 unless it was to reinstate the internet.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

You can take our Lands, our Lives, but you will never take our INTERNET!

[mstriumph]

you mean theyll destroy auckland AND kill all the politicians and jewcunts?!
Who's hand do i shake?, where do i send the cheques?
Sign me up!

sometimes I think you must be a different species ... :confused:

[mstriumph]

So, the Rwandan Genocide, People going round and carving up (literally) with Machetes people from the opposite tribe, not to mention all the Rape, mutilation, torture etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#Means_of_killing

were we not justified to send in troops to stop the wholesale slaughter?

If you say no, I invite you to read the accounts of what happened in Rwanda - I am a callous fuck when it comes to Gore, Torture etc, and some of the things they got up to make me feel queezy.

I would even go so far to say that it was people who share your mindset that held off sending in troops have a measure of blood on their hands for their inaction



Again, you have never experienced life under a dictatorship or a tyrannical government - sure our government piss us off, and we might bitch and moan about it. but if we do, we can sleep safely at night knowing that black clad paramilitary troops aren't going to kick our doors in at 3 in the morning, arrest us, take us to a prison site, torture us, our relatives and everyone we talked to and then execute us.

If that was happening, I think I might be a little open to the idea of someone marching into Auckland and kicking a little ass - especially if it meant I didn't have to worry about what I said, or worry about people I knew going 'missing'



Again, it is easy for us who have never experienced a tyrannical government to sit in our Ivory tower and debate about the rights and wrongs - but the reality is that there are many governments with oppressive, racist, and illegal policies (illegal here being in respect to the universal decleration of human rights) who flaunt international pressure to change

Don't you think that's a tad arrogant?
Who elected us god?
By what right, moral or otherwise, are we permitted to be judge, jury and executioner?
And who's the arbiter of whether we are right (have a gold star) or misguided (playground bully award)

[bogan]

Don't you think that's a tad arrogant?
Who elected us god?
By what right, moral or otherwise, are we permitted to be judge, jury and executioner?
And who's the arbiter of whether we are right (have a gold star) or misguided (playground bully award)

I think it is a tad noble, risking it all in the defence of those who cannot defend themselves.
The same moral rights which justify self defence justify the defence of others.
Now that is the real question, and not one easily answered since crystal balls don't work.

[Akzle]

sometimes I think you must be a different species ... :confused:

i wish i was.
One thats allowed to kill humans. Like a moose. Or bear. Just not a regular moose or bear, one with opposable thumbs so i can operate firearms and drive. Then id go hang out with the kombocha mushroom people.

Actually, maybe rather a virus, the T virus.

[Voltaire]

i wish i was.
One thats allowed to kill humans. Like a moose. Or bear. Just not a regular moose or bear, one with opposable thumbs so i can operate firearms and drive. Then id go hang out with the kombocha mushroom people.

Actually, maybe rather a virus, the T virus.

Hey Rob your other forum is missing you http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/index.php :niceone:

http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/vforum/archive/index.php/t-37542.html

[TheDemonLord]

Don't you think that's a tad arrogant?
Who elected us god?
By what right, moral or otherwise, are we permitted to be judge, jury and executioner?
And who's the arbiter of whether we are right (have a gold star) or misguided (playground bully award)

So - let me ask this directly:

You are watching a gang of 20 people, armed with Machetes - they have just hacked the Arms and genetalia of some 30 men in a village, while leaving them to bleed out, with their wives and children watching.

They then proceed to force the sons (at machete point) to rape the daughters, while the mothers are held down to be gang raped as well.

Once they are finished, they are going to execute all the sons (Slowly, while normally forcing the survivors to watch), and mutilate all the survivors (normally using whatever is to hand - so Knives, Flares, Broken bottles, Shotguns, pistols - whatever takes their fancy really)

You are standing on a hill with an SR-25 (Designated Marksmen Rifle) with 30 rounds.

Do you stop the slaughter, rape and Torture?

If the Answer is no - then - you are a despicable human being (and I use the word despicable with every bit of Malice that is implied in the word)

If the Answer is yes - then how did you decide to intervene? I would expect it would be by empathy with the victims and some notion of natural justice that what was being done to them is wrong and must be stopped.

We, in the western world have the power to stop such atrocities, with Power is granted responsible to use it wisely. I concede that we don't always get it right, sometimes we intervene when we shouldn't and sometimes we don't intervene when we should - and with the clarity of hindsight, people like you and I are left to argue at length as to the merits of our action or inaction

but I put to you that there are situations where all peaceful alternatives have been exhausted and to stop a greater evil, we must send in troops

[Bikemad]

you mean theyll destroy auckland AND kill all the politicians and jewcunts?!
Who's hand do i shake?, where do i forward the cheque?
Sign me up!

clearly you have not thought this through...........kill the polys and the jews and you won't have a cheque to forward:bleh:

[mstriumph]

I think it is a tad noble, risking it all in the defence of those who cannot defend themselves.
The same moral rights which justify self defence justify the defence of others.
Now that is the real question, and not one easily answered since crystal balls don't work.

I repeat "And who's the arbiter of whether we are right (have a gold star) or misguided (playground bully award"

[mstriumph]

i wish i was.
One thats allowed to kill humans. Like a moose. Or bear. Just not a regular moose or bear, one with opposable thumbs so i can operate firearms and drive. Then id go hang out with the kombocha mushroom people.

Actually, maybe rather a virus, the T virus.

you really shouldn't forget to take your medication ... it makes you almost ... loveable

[bogan]

I repeat "And who's the arbiter of whether we are right (have a gold star) or misguided (playground bully award"

There is none. Should a lack of permission from a higher power prevent us from ever going to war in defense of those to weak to defend themselves? for that matter is defense of one's own nation always righteous?

[mstriumph]

So - let me ask this directly:

You are watching a gang of 20 people, armed with Machetes - they have just hacked the Arms and genetalia of some 30 men in a village, while leaving them to bleed out, with their wives and children watching.

They then proceed to force the sons (at machete point) to rape the daughters, while the mothers are held down to be gang raped as well.

Once they are finished, they are going to execute all the sons (Slowly, while normally forcing the survivors to watch), and mutilate all the survivors (normally using whatever is to hand - so Knives, Flares, Broken bottles, Shotguns, pistols - whatever takes their fancy really)

You are standing on a hill with an SR-25 (Designated Marksmen Rifle) with 30 rounds.

Do you stop the slaughter, rape and Torture?

If the Answer is no - then - you are a despicable human being (and I use the word despicable with every bit of Malice that is implied in the word)

If the Answer is yes - then how did you decide to intervene? I would expect it would be by empathy with the victims and some notion of natural justice that what was being done to them is wrong and must be stopped.

We, in the western world have the power to stop such atrocities, with Power is granted responsible to use it wisely. I concede that we don't always get it right, sometimes we intervene when we shouldn't and sometimes we don't intervene when we should - and with the clarity of hindsight, people like you and I are left to argue at length as to the merits of our action or inaction

but I put to you that there are situations where all peaceful alternatives have been exhausted and to stop a greater evil, we must send in troops

The quick answer is that we send in the united nations who stand there in their blue helmets and watch ... thereby giving tacit approval to the proceedings.

That's cynical in the extreme and sounds facile but it illustrates my point - mebbe we should think about what we do that facilitates and encourages nasties ... and stop doing it?

..........that's probably not as attractive as dashing in, banners flying, to dish out retribution after the event ... but it may be more effective?

question is ... do our 'leaders' have enough foresight, intelligence and patience to put it into practice...

[bogan]

mebbe we should think about what we do that facilitates and encourages nasties ... and stop doing it?

Things like treating women as equals instead of property you mean?

[mstriumph]

There is none. Should a lack of permission from a higher power prevent us from ever going to war in defense of those to weak to defend themselves? for that matter is defense of one's own nation always righteous?

1. Belief in a "higher power" seems to get folk into more strife than anything else, conflictwise.
2. Normally what we see (the conflict) is the end product of years, sometimes decades of buildup with rights, wrongs, claims, counterclaims on both sides ... I think we are sometimes too quick to judge/ move on/ interfere in the current situation without viewing the buildup/background. Also, I don't trust 'us' not to allow our own self-interest to direct our actions.
3. Yes, if we are directly attacked we are obliged to defend ourselves - no question ... we just have to remember that other nations have that right too, when we have marched into THEIR country.
4. Defence has a 'c', not an 's'. Think of the children :msn-wink:

[mstriumph]

Things like treating women as equals instead of property you mean?

Love it :rolleyes: ... but you don't have to debate me if you don't want to, you know?

[TheDemonLord]

The quick answer is that we send in the united nations who stand there in their blue helmets and watch ... thereby giving tacit approval to the proceedings.

That's cynical in the extreme and sounds facile but it illustrates my point - mebbe we should think about what we do that facilitates and encourages nasties ... and stop doing it?

..........that's probably not as attractive as dashing in, banners flying, to dish out retribution after the event ... but it may be more effective?

question is ... do our 'leaders' have enough foresight, intelligence and patience to put it into practice...

And why is it you think the United Nations has turned into a limp wristed organisation that is too scarred to slap someone on the wrist with a wet bus ticket?

I put forward it is because people who share many of your sentiments:

War is bad
We shouldn't send troops in because they might get hurt/die
Everyone should hold hands, get along and sing Kum-by-yah (or however it is spellt)

You say that we facilitate and encourage nasties - I agree, you also say we should stop what we are doing that encourages and facilitates - I also agree: by standing on the side lines and not kicking ass (when it needs to be kicked) we are definitely encouraging and facilitating them.

As for our Leaders - of course they don't - they are human, often with insufficient information and conflicting viewpoints from the people - but without a better alternative, they are the best we have

[mstriumph]

So, the Rwandan Genocide, People going round and carving up (literally) with Machetes people from the opposite tribe, not to mention all the Rape, mutilation, torture etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide#Means_of_killing

were we not justified to send in troops to stop the wholesale slaughter?

If you say no, I invite you to read the accounts of what happened in Rwanda -...............




read this one
tell me we were effective
tell me we acted with disinterested concern for the victimised Rwandan nationals
tell me our hands our clean

http://www.rwandanstories.org/genocide/role_of_the_west.html

or weep - as I do.

[bogan]

1. Belief in a "higher power" seems to get folk into more strife than anything else, conflictwise.
2. Normally what we see (the conflict) is the end product of years, sometimes decades of buildup with rights, wrongs, claims, counterclaims on both sides ... I think we are sometimes too quick to judge/ move on/ interfere in the current situation without viewing the buildup/background. Also, I don't trust 'us' not to allow our own self-interest to direct our actions.
3. Yes, if we are directly attacked we are obliged to defend ourselves - no question ... we just have to remember that other nations have that right too, when we have marched into THEIR country.
4. Defence has a 'c', not an 's'. Think of the children :msn-wink:

1. So all we have is ourselves at our time to decide whether it is right to go to war or not; this is why I remember those who made the sacrifice in the name of the freedom we enjoy today. I do not taint that memory by somehow insinuating they were wrong to make such a choice.
2. It is, but again, this changes nothing as all we have is ourselves and our time to make the decision. Years of buildup do not excuse atrocities and oppression that we may choose to go and fight.
3. Pretty simplistic view, you know there are such things as border disputes right? And counterattacks as the best form of defense.
4. Meh, my browser spell check only comes in American English, the two are interchangeable in almost all forms of communication nowadays anyway.


Love it :rolleyes: ... but you don't have to debate me if you don't want to, you know?

Why would you think I don't want to? Projection of you not wanting me to, on account of me pointing out some truths you're not entirely happy with?

[TheDemonLord]

read this one
tell me we were effective
tell me we acted with disinterested concern for the victimised Rwandan nationals
tell me our hands our clean

http://www.rwandanstories.org/genocide/role_of_the_west.html

or weep - as I do.

I know very well what happened - some Western Soldiers got hurt and everyone got scarred and pulled out, instead of sending the Armoured divisions, backed up by Air support then later only realizing that actually that was the wrong call. Again, I put to you that the beliefs that you have held up in this debate are the exact reason why this happened.

I will tell you that we could have been effective if we weren't so scarred of having our soldiers hurt/die
I will tell you that we could have acted with more definitive concern, but we were held up by people not wanting to see western soldiers die.
I will tell you that our hands would be bloodier if we hadn't (eventually) sent in the troops

I don't weep, I just accept that when it is time for action, it should be swift, decisive and brutal. however others still cling to a delusion of that humanity is good and so delay action, often to the point as what happened in Rwanda.

[oldrider]

I know very well what happened - some Western Soldiers got hurt and everyone got scarred and pulled out, instead of sending the Armoured divisions, backed up by Air support then later only realizing that actually that was the wrong call. Again, I put to you that the beliefs that you have held up in this debate are the exact reason why this happened.

I will tell you that we could have been effective if we weren't so scarred of having our soldiers hurt/die
I will tell you that we could have acted with more definitive concern, but we were held up by people not wanting to see western soldiers die.
I will tell you that our hands would be bloodier if we hadn't (eventually) sent in the troops

I don't weep, I just accept that when it is time for action, it should be swift, decisive and brutal. however others still cling to a delusion of that humanity is good and so delay action, often to the point as what happened in Rwanda.

They were never scared of the enemy on the ground ... they were scared of the unseen enemy of the controlled world media and their invisible masters! :confused::shifty:

[TheDemonLord]

They were never scared of the enemy on the ground ... they were scared of the unseen enemy of the controlled world media and their invisible masters! :confused::shifty:

Exactly - Scarred of pictures of Flag draped coffins

[oldrider]

Exactly - Scarred of pictures of Flag draped coffins

True! ... They never had to contend with the wars extending right into every living room around the world before Viet Nam!

Notice how majority of ISIS based news items always are accompanied by the same old pictures, unless it's a beheading, they are always current! :sick:

[Akzle]

We, in the western world have the power to stop such atrocities,
arguable, since it's never been achieved, and the us has had the most well funded (by fucken jew cunts) military for the last century, straight. and, correct me if i'm wrong, but they've never won a war. (or 'conflict' as they politely put it)

with Power is granted responsible to use it wisely.
a dandy notion, i assume here we're getting mao about it (power grows out the barrel of a gun")?
granted? i haven't granted anyone anything. who has "granted" this "power" to a select few white fucks??
spin the fucking money go round... war on drugs, war on terror, war on abstract notion that will never be conquered but needs lots of funding.

terrorists have successfully hijacked..... your imagination.


I concede that we don't always get it right, sometimes we intervene when we shouldn't and sometimes we don't intervene when we should - and with the clarity of hindsight, people like you and I are left to argue at length as to the merits of our action or inaction
what's this "we" white fulla, we AINT all in this together. the wars i would choose aren't going to be fought, because people are too stupid to realise they're under attack.



clearly you have not thought this through...........kill the polys and the jews and you won't have a cheque to forward:bleh:



question is ... do our 'leaders' have enough foresight, intelligence and patience to put it into practice...
leaders? fucken excuse me, who??? i'm not following any of those fucks, and when the time comes, they're going to be downrange of my position.

Things like treating women as equals instead of property you mean?
an absolute arsery. women are things. just look at how fucked up shit is since we let them out of the kitchen.

And why is it you think the United Nations has turned into a limp wristed organisation that is too scarred to slap someone on the wrist with a wet bus ticket?

I put forward it is because people who share many of your sentiments:

War is bad
We shouldn't send troops in because they might get hurt/die
hey, don't fuck with the jewnited nations, they will write you a strongly worded letter!:Police:

They were never scared of the enemy on the ground ... they were scared of the unseen enemy of the controlled world media and their invisible masters! :confused::shifty:
no, they were scared of the grey ghosts of the forest. an enemy that didn't believe in line infantry, because that's the smartest way to fight war!


they aren't smart enough to be scared of the paymasters!

[Voltaire]

Last edited by Gremlin; Today at 00:36. Reason: Oversized Image Removed

Robs picture was the only good bit in his rambling waffle.:rofl:

[SPman]

Robert Fisk has a few words to say on this.........

My father threw away his poppy in disgust
My family was haunted by my father’s experience on the Somme and the loss of his friends. Why do we pay homage to the dead but ignore the lessons of their war?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/first-world-war-centenary-my-father-threw-away-his-poppy-in-disgust-9645299.html

[FJRider]

... Why do we pay homage to the dead but ignore the lessons of their war?



It's not about what they did. More about the reasons about what they tried (official version) to do.

Had they not ... the free world might have been smaller. And nowhere near as free ..

[oldrider]

Robert Fisk has a few words to say on this.........

My father threw away his poppy in disgust
My family was haunted by my father’s experience on the Somme and the loss of his friends. Why do we pay homage to the dead but ignore the lessons of their war?

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/first-world-war-centenary-my-father-threw-away-his-poppy-in-disgust-9645299.html

Because we are conditioned to believe that which is intended for us to believe because of that it could (will) all happen again tomorrow! :mellow:

[mstriumph]

.............



Why would you think I don't want to? Projection of you not wanting me to, on account of me pointing out some truths you're not entirely happy with?

sorry
people who make remarks about women being subsidiary are normally trying to discredit the opposition because they fear they are losing the argument
if that's not you, carry on, glad to have you :sunny:

[mstriumph]

arguable, since it's never been achieved, and the us has had the most well funded (by fucken jew cunts) military for the last century, straight. and, correct me if i'm wrong, but they've never won a war. (or 'conflict' as they politely put it)

a dandy notion, i assume here we're getting mao about it (power grows out the barrel of a gun")?
granted? i haven't granted anyone anything. who has "granted" this "power" to a select few white fucks??
spin the fucking money go round... war on drugs, war on terror, war on abstract notion that will never be conquered but needs lots of funding.

terrorists have successfully hijacked..... your imagination.


what's this "we" white fulla, we AINT all in this together. the wars i would choose aren't going to be fought, because people are too stupid to realise they're under attack.





leaders? fucken excuse me, who??? i'm not following any of those fucks, and when the time comes, they're going to be downrange of my position.

an absolute arsery. women are things. just look at how fucked up shit is since we let them out of the kitchen.

hey, don't fuck with the jewnited nations, they will write you a strongly worded letter!:Police:

no, they were scared of the grey ghosts of the forest. an enemy that didn't believe in line infantry, because that's the smartest way to fight war!


they aren't smart enough to be scared of the paymasters!

Wow, you had a great time with this, didn't you? Funnily enough, if you'd lay off the Jews (and women, and Muslims or whatever else group is your badmouth target de jour ... ) I'd be agreeing with you.

(Although I do think it's quite cute that you and Old Rider both seem to think those Jews have that much power and influence when everyone with any sense KNOWS that it's Catholics that are the great satan ... :devil2:)

[mstriumph]

Because we are conditioned to believe that which is intended for us to believe because of that it could (will) all happen again tomorrow! :mellow:

thankfully conditioning doesn't always take
this thread proves that there are many of us out here saying "the king has no clothes..."

[Akzle]

Wow, you had a great time with this, didn't you? Funnily enough, if you'd lay off the Jews (and women, and Muslims or whatever else group is your badmouth target de jour ... ) I'd be agreeing with you.

(Although I do think it's quite cute that you and Old Rider both seem to think those Jews have that much power and influence when everyone with any sense KNOWS that it's Catholics that are the great satan ... :devil2:)

oh dear, dear. jews. Not Jews. And as johnny would point out, more like Zionists. And ive explained it so many times ill not repeat it again.

And if you think money doesnt have 'that much influence' on global conflict, well, youre silly.

The reign of christianity (any segregation thereof) is all but over. On account of the debt they racked up (guess whjew) crusading and shit.

Money, is the new god.

And if anyone takes me srsly (on any topic including wimmen, jews, ragheads, niggers, chinks, spics or the irish), well, they deserve any butthurt they get.

[oldrider]

Because we are conditioned to believe that which is intended for us to believe because of that it could (will) all happen again tomorrow! :mellow:

American congress voting to declare war on Russia seems to bare out that the above thought has substance! :facepalm:

Your own attitudes toward Catholicism is exactly the same as any statement that I have made about international Zionism = bigot in your terms.

Personally I only try to put together the things I find in the world that appear to cause the outcomes that we all have to live with.

Cause and effect .. I am too insignificant to be able to do any more than that and suggest that you or anyone else here on KB is not any different.

The good bit for me is that there are still significant numbers of free thinkers still out there in the world - I don't expect to agree with them all! :no:

[mashman]

Wow, you had a great time with this, didn't you? Funnily enough, if you'd lay off the Jews (and women, and Muslims or whatever else group is your badmouth target de jour ... ) I'd be agreeing with you.

(Although I do think it's quite cute that you and Old Rider both seem to think those Jews have that much power and influence when everyone with any sense KNOWS that it's Catholics that are the great satan ... :devil2:)

jew = blind scared old white muthafucka. They come in all flavours, colours, genders, religions, political ideologies etc... some are sugar frosted, some come with a flake drizzled in blood red syrup... but I prefer the ones dipped in hundreds and thousands and served in a wafer like a sammy. They exist, but they aren't necessarily Jewish by any stretch of the imagination.

[bogan]

sorry
people who make remarks about women being subsidiary are normally trying to discredit the opposition because they fear they are losing the argument
if that's not you, carry on, glad to have you :sunny:

It was referring to your point about stopping doing things that aggravate the nasties; and that is an extremely naive view in light of the myriad of cultural differences that serve to aggravate. It was not meant to discredit at all, as I don't buy into that crap, and would fight for gender equality.

You also missed these points...

1. So all we have is ourselves at our time to decide whether it is right to go to war or not; this is why I remember those who made the sacrifice in the name of the freedom we enjoy today. I do not taint that memory by somehow insinuating they were wrong to make such a choice.
2. It is, but again, this changes nothing as all we have is ourselves and our time to make the decision. Years of buildup do not excuse atrocities and oppression that we may choose to go and fight.
3. Pretty simplistic view, you know there are such things as border disputes right? And counterattacks as the best form of defense.
4. Meh, my browser spell check only comes in American English, the two are interchangeable in almost all forms of communication nowadays anyway.

[mstriumph]

jew = blind scared old white muthafucka. They come in all flavours, colours, genders, religions, political ideologies etc... some are sugar frosted, some come with a flake drizzled in blood red syrup... but I prefer the ones dipped in hundreds and thousands and served in a wafer like a sammy. They exist, but they aren't necessarily Jewish by any stretch of the imagination.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh:msn-wink:

[mstriumph]

It was referring to your point about stopping doing things that aggravate the nasties; and that is an extremely naive view in light of the myriad of cultural differences that serve to aggravate. It was not meant to discredit at all, as I don't buy into that crap, and would fight for gender equality.

You also missed these points...

1. So all we have is ourselves at our time to decide whether it is right to go to war or not; this is why I remember those who made the sacrifice in the name of the freedom we enjoy today. I do not taint that memory by somehow insinuating they were wrong to make such a choice.
2. It is, but again, this changes nothing as all we have is ourselves and our time to make the decision. Years of buildup do not excuse atrocities and oppression that we may choose to go and fight.
3. Pretty simplistic view, you know there are such things as border disputes right? And counterattacks as the best form of defense.
4. Meh, my browser spell check only comes in American English, the two are interchangeable in almost all forms of communication nowadays anyway.

Don't believe you - if it walks like a duck, etc.

didn't miss it = was ignoring it as it's mostly been asked and answered (except 4. to which the answer is "no they aren't ... except to the lazy")

ok - once more with feeling and i'll type slowly
1. I wish I had your faith that they went freely, uninfluenced by the propaganda, smoke and mirrors wielded by those who stayed safe home.
2. No.
3. No again - until and unless Australia or NZ have their borders threatened. You can't claim 'counterattack' when we are marching into someone else's country looking for hypothetical weapons of mass destruction which - erm - never existed?

[mstriumph]

...................
Your own attitudes toward Catholicism is exactly the same as any statement that I have made about international Zionism = bigot in your terms.

Personally I only try to put together the things I find in the world that appear to cause the outcomes that we all have to live with.............


The juxtaposing of those two thoughts really bothers me ... that, and that you have a problem with Zionism and yet don't seem to have a problem with the Catholic church.

I don't absolve Zionism for wrong acts committed by it's leaders ... just tell me how any of them are worse than the atrocities perpetuated by the church (and over a much longer period of time).

Please?

[bogan]

Don't believe you - if it walks like a duck, etc.

didn't miss it = was ignoring it as it's mostly been asked and answered (except 4. to which the answer is "no they aren't ... except to the lazy")

ok - once more with feeling and i'll type slowly
1. I wish I had your faith that they went freely, uninfluenced by the propaganda, smoke and mirrors wielded by those who stayed safe home.
2. No.
3. No again - until and unless Australia or NZ have their borders threatened. You can't claim 'counterattack' when we are marching into someone else's country looking for hypothetical weapons of mass destruction which - erm - never existed?

Then I pity you for viewing my honesty with such negativity.

1. They went to preserve our freedom, whether that was smoke and mirrors, proven right or wrong in hindsight does not diminish why they went, or what they gave up. It is that which we remember.
2. This wasn't a yes/no question.
3. Firstly, there is such a thing as border disputes. And again, no nukes is hindsight, information that was not available at the time. What if nz went nuts and built nukes to aim at the french, who then came over to disarm; would you feel fighting them for our right to nuke them is self defense? How about if we nuked paris, would you stand up and fight any frenchies who came over to hold our leaders to account? The sheer range and destructive power of todays weapons render the border front-line style conflict obsolete; and show the "its always defence on home soil" view to be quite naive.

[mstriumph]

Then I pity you for viewing my honesty with such negativity.

1. They went to preserve our freedom, whether that was smoke and mirrors, proven right or wrong in hindsight does not diminish why they went, or what they gave up. It is that which we remember.
2. This wasn't a yes/no question.
3. Firstly, there is such a thing as border disputes. And again, no nukes is hindsight, information that was not available at the time. What if nz went nuts and built nukes to aim at the french, who then came over to disarm; would you feel fighting them for our right to nuke them is self defense? How about if we nuked paris, would you stand up and fight any frenchies who came over to hold our leaders to account? The sheer range and destructive power of todays weapons render the border front-line style conflict obsolete; and show the "its always defence on home soil" view to be quite naive.

I've upset you
Unintentional - Sorry.

Will lay off ... well, mebbe just the last one as it's new.... ish

The american leadership was well aware that there were no WMD well before they invaded (yes, invaded).
NZ can't afford to build nukes.
If they did, there's no evidence they built them to bomb Paris (for f#ck's sake?!)
If the French invaded NZ because THEY THOUGHT NZ

had nukes, despite all intel to the contrary and
invaded to stop us using what they knew we didn't have to stop us doing something we had no intention or capability of doing


Then yes, of COURSE I'd fight to repel them ... and if YOU weren't right there with me manning the barricades I'd come round to your house and kick your bike over :devil2:

[jonbuoy]

I've upset you
Unintentional - Sorry.

Will lay off ... well, mebbe just the last one as it's new.... ish

The american leadership was well aware that there were no WMD well before they invaded (yes, invaded).
NZ can't afford to build nukes.
If they did, there's no evidence they built them to bomb Paris (for f#ck's sake?!)
If the French invaded NZ because THEY THOUGHT NZ

had nukes, despite all intel to the contrary and
invaded to stop us using what they knew we didn't have to stop us doing something we had no intention or capability of doing


Then yes, of COURSE I'd fight to repel them ... and if YOU weren't right there with me manning the barricades I'd come round to your house and kick your bike over :devil2:

What about if they attacked Australia - would you agree to stand with Australia or "not your problem don't want to get involved"?

[mashman]

What about if they attacked Australia - would you agree to stand with Australia or "not your problem don't want to get involved"?

They'll never get off the beach in Oz. They'll be met by bikini clad ladies shouting "rack off" and won't have a clue what to do.

[oldrider]

The juxtaposing of those two thoughts really bothers me ... that, and that you have a problem with Zionism and yet don't seem to have a problem with the Catholic church.

I don't absolve Zionism for wrong acts committed by it's leaders ... just tell me how any of them are worse than the atrocities perpetuated by the church (and over a much longer period of time).

Please?

Who said I don't have a problem with the Catholic church or that my "problems" (?) are limited to Zionism? ... Religion period is a problem IMHO.

Video clip of Sheik Imran Hosein posted by Brian d marge on another thread summed most of the religious problems up for me.

Judaism .. Christianity .. Islam and their relationships with and toward each other are at the root of world problems!

Add to that the money power and political ambitions of international Zionism! :wacko:

International Zionism is at the pointy top 1% of the pyramid of world political and religious control - no doubt about that in MHO. :facepalm:

But of course (like everybody else) I am only an interested powerless casual observer/victim :corn: and we will all get our arse kicked by them when it suits! :kick:

[bogan]

I've upset you
Unintentional - Sorry.

Will lay off ... well, mebbe just the last one as it's new.... ish

The american leadership was well aware that there were no WMD well before they invaded (yes, invaded).
NZ can't afford to build nukes.
If they did, there's no evidence they built them to bomb Paris (for f#ck's sake?!)
If the French invaded NZ because THEY THOUGHT NZ

had nukes, despite all intel to the contrary and
invaded to stop us using what they knew we didn't have to stop us doing something we had no intention or capability of doing


Then yes, of COURSE I'd fight to repel them ... and if YOU weren't right there with me manning the barricades I'd come round to your house and kick your bike over :devil2:

Not at all, I'm simply pointing out your negative bias. I do wonder if this is a bias to 'dehumanise' those who disagree with you, so as to discount our opinions; similarly to thinking I am upset.

1. You seem to have forgotten already, Lest We Forget refers to WW1, not the post-911 invasion. In any case you've avoided my point, it is not why they were sent (viewed with hindsight) but why they went (given the information they had at the time).
2. You seem to have lost count as well. #2 was It is (the end product of years of buildup), but again, this changes nothing as all we have is ourselves and our time to make the decision. Years of buildup do not excuse atrocities and oppression that we may choose to go and fight.
3. (and 4) This is a hypothetical, hence it started with 'what if nz went nuts' That you have to change the hypothetical so much to justify your choice to defend clearly shows the idea of "its always defense on home soil" is quite naive.

[mstriumph]

What about if they attacked Australia - would you agree to stand with Australia or "not your problem don't want to get involved"?

they invade ANYWHERE i'm living in the way the US of whatever invaded (add your victim of choice here - you have a few to choose from) and I'd tend to take it personally.

- so yes
- wouldn't you?

[mstriumph]

... Religion period is a problem IMHO............ we are in total agreement on this:drinknsin

............. and we will all get our arse kicked by them when it suits! :kick: I think that, being a bloke and all, your arse is at far more risk from the papists than the hebrews ... although you are prolly a bit old for their preference ...:sweatdrop

[mstriumph]

Not at all, I'm simply pointing out your negative bias. I do wonder if this is a bias to 'dehumanise' those who disagree with you, so as to discount our opinions; similarly to thinking I am upset.

1. You seem to have forgotten already, Lest We Forget refers to WW1, not the post-911 invasion. In any case you've avoided my point, it is not why they were sent (viewed with hindsight) but why they went (given the information they had at the time).
2. You seem to have lost count as well. #2 was It is (the end product of years of buildup), but again, this changes nothing as all we have is ourselves and our time to make the decision. Years of buildup do not excuse atrocities and oppression that we may choose to go and fight.
3. (and 4) This is a hypothetical, hence it started with 'what if nz went nuts' That you have to change the hypothetical so much to justify your choice to defend clearly shows the idea of "its always defense on home soil" is quite naive.

:scratch: :facepalm: :brick: :shutup:

[jonbuoy]

they invade ANYWHERE i'm living in the way the US of whatever invaded (add your victim of choice here - you have a few to choose from) and I'd tend to take it personally.

- so yes
- wouldn't you?

Yes of course but your argument earlier on seemed to be that NZ shouldn't send soldiers overseas to fight for other peoples borders. Which is the opposite of what your saying now?

[bogan]

:scratch: :facepalm: :brick: :shutup:

You seem to have run dry on counterpoints then?

[mstriumph]

Yes of course but your argument earlier on seemed to be that NZ shouldn't send soldiers overseas to fight for other peoples borders. Which is the opposite of what your saying now?

I said

"they invade ANYWHERE i'm living in the way the US of whatever invaded (add your victim of choice here - you have a few to choose from) and I'd tend to take it personally. - so yes - wouldn't you?"

by definition ... "where I'm living" can't be 'overseas' from my perspective ....
yes, this means if (in the extremely unlikely event) I were to be living in Afghanistan and the Jonathans and their creatures invaded Afghanistan I'd be manning the barricades THERE because it wouldn't then be just 'other people's borders', it would also be MY borders (because I was living there, making a life there, etc., etc.,) ...

same same NZ
same same AUS

as a basic principal I'll defend wherever I am if attacked ... that's self-defence

BUT IF I (or any of my kin) go to somewhere, we are NOT living at the time, weapons in hand and mayhem in mind, that's warmongering, invasion and definitely out of line.

............ which is *sigh* exactly the essence of what I've been saying since post one.

[mstriumph]

You seem to have run dry on counterpoints then?

To make it simpler for you, I've given up on words and am now trying pictures. Message is essentially the same.

If you still don't get it I'm probably going to have to try a plague, a flood, a burning bush or part the red sea or something (when I was a kid I thought, frankly, he went a bit OTT with that but now, honestly, I can see just how frustrated the god of the old testament got with the Obdurate ...)

[bogan]

To make it simpler for you, I've given up on words and am now trying pictures. Message is essentially the same.

So, not very good then?

The point I'm making, is that if you keep touting false justifications as reason to never go to war; displays a logical inconsistency. That is, that if the reasons were true, it would have been justified, so going to war is sometimes acceptable.

My other point that defending your home soil and by extension the current govt is not always morally right either.

You've supplied no counterpoints to those, resorting to the ambiguity of pictures merely illustrates that.

[FJRider]

"they invade ANYWHERE i'm living in the way the US of whatever invaded (add your victim of choice here - you have a few to choose from) and I'd tend to take it personally. - so yes - wouldn't you?"

by definition ... "where I'm living" can't be 'overseas' from my perspective ....
yes, this means if (in the extremely unlikely event) I were to be living in Afghanistan and the Jonathans and their creatures invaded Afghanistan I'd be manning the barricades THERE because it wouldn't then be just 'other people's borders', it would also be MY borders (because I was living there, making a life there, etc., etc.,) ...

same same NZ
same same AUS

as a basic principal I'll defend wherever I am if attacked ... that's self-defence

BUT IF I (or any of my kin) go to somewhere, we are NOT living at the time, weapons in hand and mayhem in mind, that's warmongering, invasion and definitely out of line.

............ which is *sigh* exactly the essence of what I've been saying since post one.

If my country .... kin ... or friends/allies are attacked by another group in or outside MY borders ... I will take the battle to them. Be it inside (or outside) my borders ... or theirs.


Would you NOT .. ???

[jonbuoy]

I said

"they invade ANYWHERE i'm living in the way the US of whatever invaded (add your victim of choice here - you have a few to choose from) and I'd tend to take it personally. - so yes - wouldn't you?"

by definition ... "where I'm living" can't be 'overseas' from my perspective ....
yes, this means if (in the extremely unlikely event) I were to be living in Afghanistan and the Jonathans and their creatures invaded Afghanistan I'd be manning the barricades THERE because it wouldn't then be just 'other people's borders', it would also be MY borders (because I was living there, making a life there, etc., etc.,) ...

same same NZ
same same AUS

as a basic principal I'll defend wherever I am if attacked ... that's self-defence

BUT IF I (or any of my kin) go to somewhere, we are NOT living at the time, weapons in hand and mayhem in mind, that's warmongering, invasion and definitely out of line.

............ which is *sigh* exactly the essence of what I've been saying since post one.

So if you were living in NZ and "someone" attacked Australia/Fiji/Samoa you wouldn't get involved as you don't live there?

[Swoop]

If the French invaded NZ...
The froggies don't invade anyone, their sole purpose is to be invaded.
Normally Ze Chermans, but recently the muslims.

[jonbuoy]

The froggies don't invade anyone, their sole purpose is to be invaded.
Normally Ze Chermans, but recently the muslims.

I think that's called "not getting involved" - bit like The Netherlands tried in WW2 - declared themselves neutral and "not involved" and got invaded anyway.

[mstriumph]

So, not very good then? depends, you seem to have accepted the parallel I drew between myself and god without a murmur; quite scary.


The point I'm making, is that if you keep touting false justifications as reason to never go to war; displays a logical inconsistency. That is, that if the reasons were true, it would have been justified, so going to war is sometimes acceptable. so, by your convoluted 'logic' (and I use that term loosely) if my aunt had a willie she'd be my uncle. Also, depends on your definition of 'war'; like any Celt, I've never been anti-fighting, like any humanitarian I've always been anti bullying. Invading someone else's home ground is bullying.


My other point that defending your home soil and by extension the current govt is not always morally right either. My fighting stance would be self-defence and that is not only morally right, it's a moral imperative and obligation... governments do not rate highly with me - but if defending them is an unavoidable by-product of defending me and mine, well, that's a risk I'm willing to take.


You've supplied no counterpoints to those, resorting to the ambiguity of pictures merely illustrates that.You've used 'ambiguity' in a sentence; please look up what it means and try again.:no:

[mstriumph]

If my country .... kin ... or friends/allies are attacked by another group in or outside MY borders ... I will take the battle to them. Be it inside (or outside) my borders ... or theirs.


Would you NOT .. ???

Give me a hypothesis pse?

[mstriumph]

So if you were living in NZ and "someone" attacked Australia/Fiji/Samoa you wouldn't get involved as you don't live there? Sensible question. In all honesty, that close to home, it would probably fall within the definition of the attack being on 'me and mine' ... but that wouldn't give me licence to invade Afghanistan or march into the Sudetenland?

[mstriumph]

I think that's called "not getting involved" - bit like The Netherlands tried in WW2 - declared themselves neutral and "not involved" and got invaded anyway. ... which would immediately make them involved?

[mstriumph]

Seriously, guys ... we've now been debating the morality, whys and wherefores of warfare for well over a month. During that time, irrespective of which stance we take, we have been honouring the concept of 'lest we forget' by simply not forgetting.

The dead had their lives cut short, their futures erased, their hopes dreams and aspirations nullified as a consequence of warfare.
At least we are paying them the simple respect of asking why. We haven't just paused for a poppy-clad minute's silence on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month then pushed it away from us and gone, unheeding, back to our daily life.

On behalf of the fallen in my own bloodline, I'm comforted by that.
Thank you.

[Akzle]

The dead had their lives cut short, their futures erased, their hopes dreams and aspirations nullified as a consequence of warfare.

well thats more a matter of philosophy.
Even at that time, the standard indoctrination would have been judeo christian, meaning that while their incarnation on this earth was terminated, their spirit was ascended for judgement.
Human life is only a very small part of anything.

[TheDemonLord]

Sensible question. In all honesty, that close to home, it would probably fall within the definition of the attack being on 'me and mine' ... but that wouldn't give me licence to invade Afghanistan or march into the Sudetenland?

Woah!

That is a massive goal post shift, suddenly you have changed from 'only self defence is acceptable' to 'self defence and anyone that is strategically important to me'

So now we have established that not only is war occasionally acceptable but also that fighting other than for self defense is also occasionally acceptable.

And the final question then is this: if there was a threat in Afghanistan that if left unchecked could grow to the point where it would be a matter of self defence and anyone that is strategically important to me - does your version of morality allow you to march in and invade?

especially since in the modern world, physical distance has little to no bearing on whether the threat is real or not.

[bogan]

depends, you seem to have accepted the parallel I drew between myself and god without a murmur; quite scary.

so, by your convoluted 'logic' (and I use that term loosely) if my aunt had a willie she'd be my uncle. Also, depends on your definition of 'war'; like any Celt, I've never been anti-fighting, like any humanitarian I've always been anti bullying. Invading someone else's home ground is bullying.

My fighting stance would be self-defence and that is not only morally right, it's a moral imperative and obligation... governments do not rate highly with me - but if defending them is an unavoidable by-product of defending me and mine, well, that's a risk I'm willing to take.

You've used 'ambiguity' in a sentence; please look up what it means and try again.:no:

I tend to ignore references to godly wisdom and instead focus on the poster's content.

Sounds about right. Invading someone else's country can also be liberation, to put an end to bullying of the populace by their govt and armed forces.

So you would give your life to preserve a morally bankrupt govt, even if the govt seeking to replace them was better in every way? Or does that not fall under defending me and mine? Seems the definitions of acceptable wars are getting a bit more cloudy, and a bit less naive :yes:

Firstly, it had the desired effect of you explaining your reasoning; secondly, it was used in the right context: "The quality of being open to more than one interpretation; inexactness:" of which emoticons certainly are.

[Big Dog]

I have laid my life on the line against superior might and numbers in the name of defending the defenceless.

Just not in uniform, in an official capacity or overseas. Fortunately my intervention has always been enough to deter said bullies. Be they men in patches or boys who think they are OG's or a football team on the grog, make no mistake many who initiate violence on few are bullies.

Each time I have been unarmed. Not always the case for the groups I was standing up to. On at least one occasion i firmly believe they were intent on killing the person they were beating the crap out of. They certainly had the means to kill or maim me if they so chose.

I see no reason an appropriately authorised deputation should not do similar on a national or international stage.

I do think that if the information that leads to an invasion is false there needs to be an investigation.

If it turns out the public were deliberately misled and lives were lost the perpetrators should be charged with either war crimes or treason.

I would support defending a threat such as was posed by the Nazi regime during WWII to the point of standing shoulder to shoulder with any opposing force even though as a general philosophy I regard myself a pacifist.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[TheDemonLord]

"You must spread some STDs around before giving it to Big Dog again."

[Big Dog]

Question for the assembled war mongers, conscientious objectors and those in between. With http://www.3news.co.nz/world/hostage-situation-in-central-sydney-2014121512 how do we defend our borders from an invisible invasion?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Ocean1]

Question for the assembled war mongers, conscientious objectors and those in between. With http://www.3news.co.nz/world/hostage-situation-in-central-sydney-2014121512 how do we defend our borders from an invisible invasion?

Same way you defend your people from any enemy: make sure it costs them more than it's worth.

In the case of hostages you kill the offenders at the earliest chance consistent with minimising casualties. You don't talk to them and you certainly don't negotiate.

[FJRider]

how do we defend our borders from an invisible invasion?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Let the Police take the shot.


No court case costing $$$$$$$$$$$$ ...


Suicide by Cop. How many would offer to pay for the bullet ... ???

[oldrider]

Same way you defend your people from any enemy: make sure it costs them more than it's worth.

In the case of hostages you kill the offenders at the earliest chance consistent with minimising casualties. You don't talk to them and you certainly don't negotiate.

Like the police sergeant at Aromoana -- he did it by the book meanwhile Gray shot him! ... MHO shoot first then read their rights asap! :2guns:

[Big Dog]

Personally i think anyone taking hostages or commiting a violent crime has voided their human rights until the event is over and they no longer offer a threat.

Double taps should be the only negotiations.

If I were a hostage I'd rather know the cavalry is coming, I might die today but the terrorists will.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[TheDemonLord]

They need to do this:

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01467/sas_1467122c.jpg

[mashman]

They need to do this:

Why? lashing out in fear eh :killingme

[Big Dog]

Because if all terrorists got dead with no real negotiations and no media platform terrorism would cease to be a valid political platform.

Wether he has the support of the official groups of terrorists or not is irrelevant. 1 man got several hours of air time across the world without a single shot fired. Just fear.

For all we know he bough some
Black material and white paint, about $10.
A air rifle that is a replica of the real thing, $45-450.
And a back pack $45.

All up it has cost under $500 to bring a major city to a stand still, gained him air time that would cost millions any other way and spread terror around the parts of the world that supported an armed response to IS. Not to mention an armed response that is costing the Australian govt thousands per hour.


Until this stops being the return on investment this is likely to continue.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

Because he survived Anders Brevick (sp?) is a household name. And will be again every time he trundles off to court for the next 30 years.

One 50 cal to the forehead and there would be some bad publicity for the police about executing a deranged lunatic without the benefit of a trial but he would be gone from the public consciousness by now.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[TheDemonLord]

Why? lashing out in fear eh :killingme

Nope, but just like a Vet putting down a dog with Rabies, We send in the SAS to put down Fanatics with Firearms.

[mashman]

Nope, but just like a Vet putting down a dog with Rabies, We send in the SAS to put down Fanatics with Firearms.

And who decides who is a fanatic? Govts that created the fanatics in the first place? Oh ironing.

[TheDemonLord]

And who decides who is a fanatic? Govts that created the fanatics in the first place? Oh ironing.

People that walk into coffee shops and take people hostages seems a good place to start for a definition of 'fanatic'

[bluninja]

http://www.theliberati.net/quaequamblog/wp-content/Dark-judges-spread.jpg

[mashman]

People that walk into coffee shops and take people hostages seems a good place to start for a definition of 'fanatic'

Why not refer to him as an armed protester? It ain't like Oz don't have no gun crime. Are they all fanatics too?

[TheDemonLord]

Why not refer to him as an armed protester? It ain't like Oz don't have no gun crime. Are they all fanatics too?

Its the hostage part that turns him from an Armed Protester to a Terrorist/Fanatic.

And before you ask - yes, anyone who takes hostages using a weapon but without a religious or political agenda should be extended the same courtesy.

[Edbear]

Same way you defend your people from any enemy: make sure it costs them more than it's worth.

In the case of hostages you kill the offenders at the earliest chance consistent with minimising casualties. You don't talk to them and you certainly don't negotiate.

Although talking does buy time to get things in place. The Police have the safety of the hostages as their first priority as much as they are keen to put a bullet in the head of the offender.

Until you are charged with the task of resolving the situation you can only guess at the Police strategy. My neighbour was AOS for a few years and very worth listening to.

[mashman]

Its the hostage part that turns him from an Armed Protester to a Terrorist/Fanatic.

And before you ask - yes, anyone who takes hostages using a weapon but without a religious or political agenda should be extended the same courtesy.

:rofl: bank robbery becomes terrorism eh. TPTB have done their job well on ya.

[TheDemonLord]

:rofl: bank robbery becomes terrorism eh. TPTB have done their job well on ya.

So, you are saying that by my rules - armed bank robbers would be shot on sight, no questions asked....






I fail to see the problem with this - how soon can we implement?

[mashman]

So, you are saying that by my rules - armed bank robbers would be shot on sight, no questions asked....

I fail to see the problem with this - how soon can we implement?

Nope. I'm saying take them all alive.

[Big Dog]

:rofl: bank robbery becomes terrorism eh. TPTB have done their job well on ya.

How are bank robbers not terrorists? They are using a principle tool of terror to achieve their goals. If anything they deserve less protection. They don't even have the nobility of righteousness to hide behind.

If either of the two should be extended a courtesy it should be the terrorist because you could argue he is a representative of stateless nation in a war.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

If they want to be taken alive they should put down their guns and surrender unconditionally.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Swoop]

Like the police sergeant at Aromoana -- he did it by the book meanwhile Gray shot him!
The cop fucked up, just like the retard at Dunblane.
They knew all about the individual but failed in their duty to the public.

[mashman]

How are bank robbers not terrorists? They are using a principle tool of terror to achieve their goals. If anything they deserve less protection. They don't even have the nobility of righteousness to hide behind.

If either of the two should be extended a courtesy it should be the terrorist because you could argue he is a representative of stateless nation in a war.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Isn't it what they're after that differentiates the two? I kind of agree with you in ways, and in that respect I wish everyone was chipped and their brain wired to an explosive... so the moment that a "perp" (coz the word is so cool) is identified with any form of "smart" radar lock, their brain would be instantly turned to mush. In light of that not being a current reality, there's the reason that the bank robber does his bad thing i.e. wanting to get away with the money, and there's the reason for terrorism i.e. freedom fighting, well, because freedom. Some western country is likely, and has likely, interfered in their country's affairs for way too long. I'd like to know before people get killed. Icky labels with many shades of white. I would say that the freedom fighter be shown "leniency" i.e. allowed to walk so that a WHY can be asked for publicly.

Now that'd be a TV show worth watching. An East v's West should the self-professed freedom fighter be allowed to wear that badge of honour? Interactive and without the need for brain explosives. Why would the East bother watching? Because you will behead the "perp" at the behest of the global public. I claim copyright n all that other shit that means it's my idea and that you have to pay me squillions if you wanna use it :wari: