Petrol stations docking staff pay for drive offs

[mada]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/63361758/workers-charged-for-petrol-driveoffs.html

Maybe these good employers should look at extending their great policy to cover robberies too. Pretty sure most low paid workers are able to prevent them from happening 99% of the time.:tugger:

[98tls]

Hardly news they have been doing it for at least 2 years that i know of,supermarket owners no doubt will follow suit.

[scumdog]

Next thing the electrical companies will charge the meter-reader for electricity being stolen by people 'jumping' the meter...

Ass-wipes.:angry2:

[caspernz]

Simple problem and it has a simple solution. Pay at pump, end of story.

As for workers being silly enough to sign such a draconian employment contract...join a union and get a real employment contract maybe?

[mossy1200]

My wife works at a bank. Good news is if there is a bank robbery we cant afford to pay the money back. Bankruptcy is the only option.

[mada]

Simple problem and it has a simple solution. Pay at pump, end of story.

As for workers being silly enough to sign such a draconian employment contract...join a union and get a real employment contract maybe?

I think the issue with number 1 is that a lot of petrol stations don't operate that way because they make most of their money from customers who fill up then come in to pay and buy extra stuff inside. If everything is pre-pay the businesses may not make profits.

If this has been happening as long as suggested, the unions must have been aware of it and have done SFA to do anything about it eg. raising media attention. Most of the people affected will be youngens who don't join unions because with their experience and youth are naïve in thinking employer wont try to rip me off and fuck me over. Some have said it's not even in the employment agreements - which then would be illegal.

[pete376403]

BP stations have multiple cameras on the forecourt (almost as many as they have watching their employees). Footage of drive offs is recorded and sent to a collections agency. They have no reason or right to deduct from the employees pay. Other brands are more than likely to have similar setups but I do know this to be a fact wrt BP.

[R650R]

BP stations have multiple cameras on the forecourt (almost as many as they have watching their employees). Footage of drive offs is recorded and sent to a collections agency. They have no reason or right to deduct from the employees pay. Other brands are more than likely to have similar setups but I do know this to be a fact wrt BP.

Whether or not the collection agency gets anything is another story.
This is a civil matter as no theft can be proved (unless repeat offender) and there is nothing to force the registered owner (if the details are correct) to say who was driving.
There is no contract in place therefore the debt agency has no power to collect. They can only be used when people 'forget' their wallet and sign the form to pay later.
Our local police FB page is filled with blurry pictures of people not paying for gas...

I'm against the attendants being deducted as that is not right, some good lawyer will sort these places out.

I used to work in a servo awhile back when petrol was a lot cheaper. We had a few drive offs but mostly ferals would feign surprise that their eftpos card was declined.
Once they 'promise' to come back and pay there is no legal avenue to collect on them and the cost outweighs the gas anyway.
We would go straight out to their car and take a jack or spare wheel. Both of which would sell for around $30-$40.
Best one wa slady that didn't pay for $30 of gas, we sold her wheel for $40 six months later, the day before she came in wanting it for her WOF.
She went septic when she found out, but tough bikkies she had six months to pay, too late.

One day we seized half a car load of artwork, a toaster and a jug that turned out to be burglary goods. The guy said he was moving house, yeah someone elses house!
The boss came in and looked at it, you numbskull a person who cant pay for their gas doesn't own artwork like this!!!

[Scuba_Steve]

This is a civil matter as no theft can be proved (unless repeat offender) and there is nothing to force the registered owner (if the details are correct) to say who was driving.

Why can't theft be proved? the fuel is moved offsite without paying isn't it? is it just you can't see the transfer, but then the accounting on the pumps (and computer systems controlling it) should be proof enough shouldn't it?
Also if the courts can illegally steal money from people for "speeding" (which I'm told is a civil case), why cant they do the same for fuel theft... something that actually affects NZers

[bogan]

Next thing the electrical companies will charge the meter-reader for electricity being stolen by people 'jumping' the meter...

Ass-wipes.:angry2:

Next thing after that they might task some members of society with preventing such people taking such things that do not belong to them...

Nah, that'll never work though :killingme

[AllanB]

Not legal to do that. Wait for the public outcry and fuel station PR machine kicking into gear.

WANKERS to the thieves and WANKERS to the thieving employers.

[haydes55]

BP stations have multiple cameras on the forecourt (almost as many as they have watching their employees). Footage of drive offs is recorded and sent to a collections agency. They have no reason or right to deduct from the employees pay. Other brands are more than likely to have similar setups but I do know this to be a fact wrt BP.


I was told by an ex BP employee, the camera systems are minutes by a computer system which monitors most gas stations. If a vehicle has stolen gas, been reported stolen or the plates can't be read/scanned, an alarm goes off so the attendant knows to not activate the pump unless pre paid.

As for not being able to prove the theft, the vehicle contains stolen goods. Petrol is a good (good English). If a vehicle owner claims innocence, they could still be done for receiving stolen goods.

It's illegal for a company to pay less than minimum wage, which after the pay is docked, many employees are effectively under paid. That's illegal. If pay docking is in your contract, then they can dock your pay with your consent.

The thing I don't get though, is the guy on the news was saying if$100 gas was stolen, he would be docked $100. But gas stations have insurance, and they have accountants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a shop writes off goods as stolen, they don't have to pay tax's on the goods, so $100 at the pump, only costs the station $50, so they still make a profit when docking pay.

[Big Dog]

When I worked managing gas stations it was not legal. Did not stop competitors doing it. The brand I have in mind did not dock wages but they put pressure on employees to stump up if they wanted shifts. If the employees could show they did everything according to policy, such as writing down plates on all cars before unlocking pumps etc they would be told not to worry about it.

I once ha to stand someone down while an investigation was carried out.

Because I identified a pattern. Drive offs were 200% higher when he was on shift. Didn't matter what shift. Compare to the same shift on the same day different week with different attendant so I went through the records. The same license plate was represented only on days the attendant was on.

Near as I could tell he was writing the bogus plate down for someone who did pay. Then later on someone would come in and pump the same amount but not come in or pay. Which of course was now what the cash payment earlier was rung off against.

Gave the tapes to the experts. Handed it over to HR.

I reckon he was bilking about $500 a week. Never underestimate the cunning of a minimum wage employee. Not even those paid fairly above the minimum wage.

I left before that was resolved but I believe he as terminated.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[scumdog]

and there is nothing to force the registered owner (if the details are correct) to say who was driving.
!

Maybe they can't be 'forced'.
But if they didn't say who was driving it might cost them court time and dollars, lots at times.

[willytheekid]

Just Bullshit aint it :oi-grr:

The lowest pay pack = The most work, responciblity and personal repercussions

...funny, when I did my management studys many many years ago...I was taught to accept FULL responcibility for my staff's actions...not pass the fucking buck! (Its why I got paid more!)

Ive been in absolute fucking AWE at the current "standards" of management and Corporate operations within NZ...it USED to be that if you knew your shit, where good with organisation & time management and had great people skills, you where management material:niceone:

....But now days??, it seems if your blatantly incompetant!...never actually done the job before, have no morals or ethical standards "holding you back" and are willing to screw the fuck out fo your workers for more "profit"...and your mate could get you into the job....your fucking management material!?!:facepalm:


...glad my boss knows not to try this shit:laugh:...he sits within striking distance!:shifty: (Oh I'd be getting MY money back!...and he'd be getting an "attitude adjustment", its what your meant to do to arseholes!:yes:)


http://meme-generator.me/media/created/mkne2f.jpg

[R650R]

I was told by an ex BP employee, the camera systems are minutes by a computer system which monitors most gas stations. If a vehicle has stolen gas, been reported stolen or the plates can't be read/scanned, an alarm goes off so the attendant knows to not activate the pump unless pre paid.

As for not being able to prove the theft, the vehicle contains stolen goods. Petrol is a good (good English). If a vehicle owner claims innocence, they could still be done for receiving stolen goods.

But gas stations have insurance, and they have accountants.

Was that NZ or UK (where they do have ANPR) as I don't think NZ servos have stumped up for the cost of ANPR systems judging by the crap quality of vid grabs on police facebook page.

The owner could not be done for receiving stolen goods. You would need to do an enormous amount of paperwork not to mention draining the tank and measuring to provide the appropriate evidence.
Although there has beena recent conviction in that area with that Fonterra driver I suspect the other guy confessed and they have txt messages etc detailing the amounts...

I'm not sure they would have insurance cover for such low level losses. The premium and excess charges/paperwork time would make it uneconomical for both sides.
Eg most truck companies have insurance for rollovers, big claim half million dollars of gear plus the freight, excess would likely be around 50000 I think. But drop a pallet of apples or booze off the forklift and think that just comes straight out of the companies profits.
You can get insurance for just about any event but theres a point where it becomes uneconomic.

[R650R]

Maybe they can't be 'forced'.
But if they didn't say who was driving it might cost them court time and dollars, lots at times.

Yes if they come to police attention soon enough.
But the unsubstantiated evidence, rumours, watching police tv reality shows and urban legends that support my sweeping generalisations shows that generally these scumbags are getting away with it.

This reminds me I was going to start a Petrol stations to avoid thread. Pulled into the mobil at Tokoroa on Friday and on prepay in broad daylight, get stuffed, made it to Z taupo on vapours :)
Not long and all be pay at the pump anyway...

[ellipsis]

I left before that was resolved but I believe he as terminated.


.

...what?...they had him taken out...that's a bit harsh...

[Big Dog]

I agree with willytheekid. Buck stops here. I used to spend a
Lot of time making sure the staff had the systems and support they needed to not have problems. We had the lowest drive offs in the network every month I had that station. Probably why I spotted the activities so easily.

We had a policy of chase every drive off. Even if that meant spending $25 per recovery through an agent for a $2 fill and run. Word gets around. And they get $80 in recovery costs if not paid in 48 hours.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Akzle]

Next thing the electrical companies will charge the meter-reader for electricity being stolen by people 'jumping' the meter...

Ass-wipes.:angry2:
naaa'reckon police pay should be docked... for the cost of crimes left un-checked.

Simple problem and it has a simple solution. Pay at pump, end of story.
except i never have and will actually drive away from a fuel station if they refuse to unlock the pump (shell in royal oak auckland - you little gerpreet indian fuck, and mobile kamo, also a gerpreet indian fuck)


It's illegal for a company to pay less than minimum wage, which after the pay is docked, many employees are effectively under paid. That's illegal. If pay docking is in your contract, then they can dock your pay with your consent.

Wages Protection Act (if national havent repealed it) - a wealth of hilarity.

[jellywrestler]

Pulled into the mobil at Tokoroa on Friday and on prepay in broad daylight, get stuffed,

what would you do if you owned a gas station right in the middle of a reservation?

[scumdog]

naaa'reckon police pay should be docked... for the cost of crimes left un-checked.

.

They already do.
Hence my pathetic pay
Hence the relative standard of recruits.

Get criminals to stop doing crime and I might get a pay rise.:bleh:

[willytheekid]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/63399273/gull-worker-repaid-docked-wages.html

FUCK YEAH!!:headbang:


pat ya selves on the back kiwi's...the people spoke, and for once!...they actually listened to the outcry and did the right thing :D



...lets hope this starts a trend eh:msn-wink:



ps...someone go punch Nick in the face for me will ya :laugh: (Gutless bastards probably "gone on paid leave":rolleyes:)

[Akzle]

They already do.
Hence my pathetic pay

and here is where hosc would mention value and profit. and explain how one leads the other.

...and since you're providing neither, you're a nett loss to the country, have you thought recently about suicide?

[scumdog]

have you thought recently about suicide?

Yes, yours.

Frequently...

[Scuba_Steve]

Get criminals to stop doing crime and I might get a pay rise.:bleh:

I keep trying but your NI chapter wont listen :bleh:

[Akzle]

Yes, yours.

Frequently...

but i don't have one...

[scumdog]

but i don't have one...

One is all you will ever need.

Unless you're the sort of loser that fucks up EVERYTHING in their life.<_<

[Akzle]

One is all you will ever need.

Unless you're the sort of loser that fucks up EVERYTHING in their life.<_<

ahh, would that your opinion mattered. at all. ("attempted" suicides should be shot on principle - vote akzle )


go stop some crime, bitch. votw

[pete376403]

Was that NZ or UK (where they do have ANPR) as I don't think NZ servos have stumped up for the cost of ANPR systems judging by the crap quality of vid grabs on police facebook page.

BP NZ (at least the ones I have worked at in the Wellington region) do have ANPR and the system is as hayden described.

[MIXONE]

BP NZ (at least the ones I have worked at in the Wellington region) do have ANPR and the system is as hayden described.

Yep and it's nationwide.

[Berries]

Maybe this is a lesson to work harder at school?

[mossy1200]

Maybe this is a lesson to work harder at school?

If everyone was a high achiever then who would do the manual labour.
Lesson is if you own a business to make a profit you should accept the financial risks that go with it.
Adding clauses in contracts because people who want and need to work will sign them doesn't make it morally correct.

[mada]

Maybe this is a lesson to work harder at school?

More likely an indicator that some people need to be taught ethics and morals, cos they clearly have none - that goes for horrible bosses and horrible employees alike.

[R650R]

More likely an indicator that some people need to be taught ethics and morals, cos they clearly have none - that goes for horrible bosses and horrible employees alike.

Yes agree 100%

As for people working harder in school.... that's all very well but life throws a few curveballs from time to time no matter how well on track you think you are.
In transport industry I've seen all sorts of people working there you wouldn't expect; more than a few ex cops, special forces soldiers( couple of genuine ones, not the bullshitters), inventor and owner of cleaning products factory, property investor, various former management execs...
If your a people person and work in the right shop it can be quite a rewarding job for many, especially as its mostly retail now and no pumping gas or checking oil etc.




The thing I don't get though, is the guy on the news was saying if$100 gas was stolen, he would be docked $100. But gas stations have insurance, and they have accountants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a shop writes off goods as stolen, they don't have to pay tax's on the goods, so $100 at the pump, only costs the station $50, so they still make a profit when docking pay.

Actually I hope they have been doing this, an IRD audit should show it up, claiming lost stock but not declaring the docked wages.
Also the docking of wages would affect (minutely) holiday pay and kiwisaver calculations too. Its one thing to dock the pay but those hours actually worked still contribute to the previously mentioned stuff.
And if claimed on any insurance scheme while docking wages that would be insurance fraud, a conviction for that means uninsurable and out of business.
I hope the appropriate people sink their teeth into this...

[GrayWolf]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/better-business/63361758/workers-charged-for-petrol-driveoffs.html

Maybe these good employers should look at extending their great policy to cover robberies too. Pretty sure most low paid workers are able to prevent them from happening 99% of the time.:tugger:

Depends on the company (I 'managed' a BP station in the UK for a couple of years) most fuel company owned service stations, the cashiers had to count EVERY item of stock (sweets, ciggies, oil etc) at each shift change. Any 'shortfall' of stock was charged to the cashier who's shift it occoured on.
There was a robbery at another 'nearby' BP, and the cashier on duty was literally treated as guilty of collusion. Most of the companies had a max 50 pounds (notes) in the till at any time. However early morning/eveneing when people are commuting, it wasnt unusual for there to be way over that as the cashier can be too busy with customers.... the exact time this one got robbed... so the cashier immediately got accused of deliberately having excess cash in the till, and a strong threat from corporate bosses to dock them for the excess over 50 pounds......

Eventually it was sorted out, but what a bunch of assholes.

[MD]

I worked many hours at servos at night when a teen and through my 20s (70s and 80s man!) to supplement my meagre income. Never heard of this disgusting practice of docking the worker. I must have had good bosses. We did have the odd drive off and shoplifting. I did my best to spot it and stop it but I guess it wasn't so prevalent back then. More thieving bastards around these days.

Funny how PC people are quick to say don't be a racist, don't stereotype someone by their looks or scruffy dress sense. Yet again and again they were the ones that stole? Go figure. I could spot them a mile away. I'd shadow them as they hung around the servo displays (targeting cigs and the like). They'd get all pissed off that you wouldn't take your eye off them and mumble, grumble about shit and leave without buying anything.

Look like a scumbag, act like a scum bag, 99% you are a scumbag.

edit- and this Masterton arsehole owner claiming the employees should try harder to chase them down! He's watched too many re-runs of Starsky and Hutch. No way can a lone employee leave the till and run off chasing who knows how many thieves and risk his/her life for a few dollars and all the while the entire servo/goods/till is abandoned for all to help themselves? How's that going to work.
That was my biggest headache when we were supposed to go out to pour gas which meant leaving creeps loitering in the shop area. You couldn't be in two places at once and scum played on that.

[Ocean1]

More likely an indicator that some people need to be taught ethics and morals, cos they clearly have none - that goes for horrible bosses and horrible employees alike.

Perfectly correct. This isn't about employers / employees, there's plenty of arseholes in any relationships of any sort, professional and otherwise.

Institute an arsehole free policy in your workplace, I guarantee it will measurably improve your life.

Having said that, does anyone seriously believe this latest bullshit is anything but a response to bullshit petty employee theft?

[Virago]

...does anyone seriously believe this latest bullshit is anything but a response to bullshit petty employee theft?

Campbell Live on TV3 has covered this story over the last two nights. The contract clause in question stated "...the right to recover costs associated with dishonesty". While it actually referred to the dishonesty of the employee, some arsehole managers used the ambiguous wording to include the dishonesty of others.

Despite frantic claims otherwise, the practice appears to have been used across all the major fuel companies. Whilst the companies are now ducking for cover, the complaints from employees are flooding in from around the country. The true extent of the issue has yet to be realised.

Interviews on Campbell Live with employment law experts have confirmed that the practice is 100% illegal, regardless of the wording of any contract.

[R650R]

I worked many hours at servos at night when a teen and through my 20s (70s and 80s man!) to supplement my meagre income. Never heard of this disgusting practice of docking the worker. I must have had good bosses. We did have the odd drive off and shoplifting. I did my best to spot it and stop it but I guess it wasn't so prevalent back then. More thieving bastards around these days.

Funny how PC people are quick to say don't be a racist, don't stereotype someone by their looks or scruffy dress sense. Yet again and again they were the ones that stole? Go figure. I could spot them a mile away. I'd shadow them as they hung around the servo displays (targeting cigs and the like). They'd get all pissed off that you wouldn't take your eye off them and mumble, grumble about shit and leave without buying anything.

Look like a scumbag, act like a scum bag, 99% you are a scumbag.

edit- and this Masterton arsehole owner claiming the employees should try harder to chase them down! He's watched too many re-runs of Starsky and Hutch. No way can a lone employee leave the till and run off chasing who knows how many thieves and risk his/her life for a few dollars and all the while the entire servo/goods/till is abandoned for all to help themselves? How's that going to work.
That was my biggest headache when we were supposed to go out to pour gas which meant leaving creeps loitering in the shop area. You couldn't be in two places at once and scum played on that.

100% agree. And no its not racist couse you get thieving Pakeha who act and dress in the same manner. Its just a function of statistics and the downfalls of modern society that there may be more offenders from certain demographics, nothing for the honest people to feel guilty about. By the same token there are poor people of same ethnic backgrounds who dress similar but pay their bills, talk nicely and don't act suspiciously.
I had a work colleague nutting off once about his son being persecuted by the police because of race. Long story short he had liquor in a liquor ban area and got cheeky to cop and got dealt appropriately. Told him the story of a pakeha uncle of mine who is the bad apple of the family and his dealings with cops were the same.... all about attitude and actions not skin colour.

I used to work sole charge on the fringe of Camberley/Flaxmere. Had no qualms about switching the pump off for certain people, never really caused problems, people knew what the score was.
We had lot of regular customer so most understood if you were staying in store for something feral. Boss was real tough guy and he taught me how to just ask are you going to buy anything to loiterers and if no ask them firmly to leave, always worked and they generally didn't come back.

This was back in te day of 80 cents a litre, used to be lot more declined eftpos cards/scams, dud cheques than drive offs.

[R650R]

Having said that, does anyone seriously believe this latest bullshit is anything but a response to bullshit petty employee theft?

With that sort of attitude its probably why you're getting the wrong employees working for you...
From time to time I've had dodgy co-workers at one place or another... surprise surprise its at the minimum wage type places where there's no goodwill from the employer.
Pay peanuts and you get monkeys (or magpies)....
Had one boss where the money wasn't great but he would fill our cars up with gas and get us crates of veges.... nothing ever went missing at that place. Although one new worker did 'borrow' my car while I was in Auckland. He was dealt to and gone before I got back, guess they didn't want to clean up the mess...

One late night Mobil I used to stop at for Diesel and coffee had this awesome American chap working the late shift, ex Boeing employee. He pointed out one day there were more cameras pointed at him than the cars on the forecourt...

[Ocean1]

If everyone was a high achiever then who would do the manual labour.
Lesson is if you own a business to make a profit you should accept the financial risks that go with it.
Adding clauses in contracts because people who want and need to work will sign them doesn't make it morally correct.

Very few people want to do manual labour. There's a huge number of opportunities for your average kid to avoid having to do it, but there's an even greater number of kids that don't bother taking those opportunities and don't bother doing any labour either, manual or otherwise. So the number of people wanting or needing such work are fucking thin on the ground, and mostly people who cbf doing their homework and who can't convince work and income to fund them to not work. Not, perhaps the basis on which to build a business.

Also not ideal is the fact that those financial risks aren't covered by profit, because there is no profit in selling gas. It's an artificial market, the suppliers dictate the price of the product and the buyers are chained to a business loan at usurious prices. If the market was free then there’d be opportunity for retailers to source their gas from whoever offered the best deal. But that’s not the case.

[Big Dog]

Twelve years ago cameras were almost exclusively for ship shrinkage and armed robbery. Too low res for anything other than proof of what you caught them doing. By ten years ago there was a major improvement in recoding
Medium. Ie Hdds. Exterior cameras got cheaper and drive offs became epidemic. Most gasses I visit now have better investment in forecourt observation than shop observation.

In 2003 buying a single forecourt camera to add to my installation would have cost more than an entire new system did in 2004.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Ocean1]

With that sort of attitude its probably why you're getting the wrong employees working for you...
From time to time I've had dodgy co-workers at one place or another... surprise surprise its at the minimum wage type places where there's no goodwill from the employer.


Campbell Live on TV3 has covered this story over the last two nights. The contract clause in question stated "...the right to recover costs associated with dishonesty". While it actually referred to the dishonesty of the employee, some arsehole managers used the ambiguous wording to include the dishonesty of others.


This isn't about employers / employees, there's plenty of arseholes in any relationships of any sort, professional and otherwise.

Institute an arsehole free policy in your workplace, I guarantee it will measurably improve your life.

And I don't have employees, the compliance costs in terms of risk and time make it simply too difficult.

[mossy1200]

Very few people want to do manual labour. There's a huge number of opportunities for your average kid to avoid having to do it, but there's an even greater number of kids that don't bother taking those opportunities and don't bother doing any labour either, manual or otherwise. So the number of people wanting or needing such work are fucking thin on the ground, and mostly people who cbf doing their homework and who can't convince work and income to fund them to not work. Not, perhaps the basis on which to build a business.

Also not ideal is the fact that those financial risks aren't covered by profit, because there is no profit in selling gas. It's an artificial market, the suppliers dictate the price of the product and the buyers are chained to a business loan at usurious prices. If the market was free then there’d be opportunity for retailers to source their gas from whoever offered the best deal. But that’s not the case.

I understand what your saying but theres not room for 4 million bosses and no workers in the country.
Moving the level of education up doesn't create anything other than a increase in overqualified people working jobs below their skill level.

As for financial risks not covered by profit. Not an excuse for treating staff as an insurance policy.

[BMWST?]

I was told by an ex BP employee, the camera systems are minutes by a computer system which monitors most gas stations. If a vehicle has stolen gas, been reported stolen or the plates can't be read/scanned, an alarm goes off so the attendant knows to not activate the pump unless pre paid.

As for not being able to prove the theft, the vehicle contains stolen goods. Petrol is a good (good English). If a vehicle owner claims innocence, they could still be done for receiving stolen goods.

It's illegal for a company to pay less than minimum wage, which after the pay is docked, many employees are effectively under paid. That's illegal. If pay docking is in your contract, then they can dock your pay with your consent.

The thing I don't get though, is the guy on the news was saying if$100 gas was stolen, he would be docked $100. But gas stations have insurance, and they have accountants. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if a shop writes off goods as stolen, they don't have to pay tax's on the goods, so $100 at the pump, only costs the station $50, so they still make a profit when docking pay.
what universe do you live in.?I bet a petrol station pays 90 bucks for a 100 worth of petrol.Not condoning this docking of pay at all.Its an absolute CRIME

[bogan]

I understand what your saying but theres not room for 4 million bosses and no workers in the country.
Moving the level of education up doesn't create anything other than a increase in overqualified people working jobs below their skill level.

As for financial risks not covered by profit. Not an excuse for treating staff as an insurance policy.

You're correct if those 'overqualified' people get BAs, but if they got BEngs or something useful there could just be robots aplenty to do the manual labour :woohoo:

[Scuba_Steve]

You're correct if those 'overqualified' people get BAs, but if they got BEngs or something useful there could just be robots aplenty to do the manual labour :woohoo:

But who would build & maintain those robots? Everyone would be too "overqualified" to do it... Thats the biggest problem with academics, everything's "beneath them"

[bogan]

But who would build & maintain those robots? Everyone would be too "overqualified" to do it... Thats the biggest problem with academics, everything's "beneath them"

Robot maintenance is a skilled job, not manual labor. And other robots would build the robots initially, obviously :rolleyes:

Engineers aren't academics either, engies tend to do things...

[Woodman]

Fucking spreadsheets. Too many "managers":tugger: spend too much time staring at spreadsheets and lose touch with reality, or more than likely have never experienced reality in the first place.

[Madness]

what universe do you live in.?I bet a petrol station pays 90 bucks for a 100 worth of petrol.

I'll raise you to $97.00, delivered.

[haydes55]

what universe do you live in.?I bet a petrol station pays 90 bucks for a 100 worth of petrol.Not condoning this docking of pay at all.Its an absolute CRIME


$90 cost.... Add 15% GST =$103.50

What universe do you live in, GST alone would have them losing money for every drop of fuel they sell.

"When you last bought petrol, 67.129 cents per litre was collected by the government as fuel excise (excluding GST)." From aa.co.nz

I have no idea how petrol taxes are organised, but I know for sure a shop keeper doesn't pay GST on stolen goods. So why would they pay the other taxes too?

If a gas station sells gas at $2/L then they get $1.70/L after GST. Take away $0.67129/L they will lose money if they pay any more than $1.02871/L for gas..... Or roughly half of what they charge.... So $100 on the pump, equals $50 to the gas station.

[BMWST?]

$90 cost.... Add 15% GST =$103.50

What universe do you live in, GST alone would have them losing money for every drop of fuel they sell.

"When you last bought petrol, 67.129 cents per litre was collected by the government as fuel excise (excluding GST)." From aa.co.nz

I have no idea how petrol taxes are organised, but I know for sure a shop keeper doesn't pay GST on stolen goods. So why would they pay the other taxes too?

If a gas station sells gas at $2/L then they get $1.70/L after GST. Take away $0.67129/L they will lose money if they pay any more than $1.02871/L for gas..... Or roughly half of what they charge.... So $100 on the pump, equals $50 to the gas station.
I accept your sums,but I know that the margins they work too are very very tight.Hence the attempts to recover shrinkage

[Madness]

Excise taxes are normally collected at either the border or the factory that produces the commodity being taxed. From my experience in a previous job, to get a refund on tobacco Excise & Duties from Customs, the body that paid the tax in the first instance has to submit the claim along with the unsold product itself before a refund is given and the product then destroyed under Customs control.

I can't imagine the situation with petrol being much different. The station will be paying the taxes in their cost price which will be completely non-refundable and is normally paid for the day the fuel is pumped into their tanks.

Something that sells for $2.00 including GST at 15.0% actually has a GST content of $0.26, not $0.30 but don't let that get in the way of a good fantasy.

[haydes55]

Excise taxes are normally collected at either the border or the factory that produces the commodity being taxed. From my experience in a previous job, to get a refund on tobacco Excise & Duties from Customs, the body that paid the tax in the first instance has to submit the claim along with the unsold product itself before a refund is given and the product then destroyed under Customs control.



I can't imagine the situation with petrol being much different. The station will be paying the taxes in their cost price which will be completely non-refundable and is normally paid for the day the fuel is pumped into their tanks.



Something that sells for $2.00 including GST at 15.0% actually has a GST content of $0.26, not $0.30 but don't let that get in the way of a good fantasy.


Sorry for being 4 cents out.....still costs the station a fuck load closer to $50 than $90. An accountant would get the taxes rebated.

[Madness]

Sorry for being 4 cents out.....still costs the station a fuck load closer to $50 than $90. An accountant would get the taxes rebated.

You're a fucking dreamer.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10779124

[Ocean1]

I understand what your saying but theres not room for 4 million bosses and no workers in the country.
Moving the level of education up doesn't create anything other than a increase in overqualified people working jobs below their skill level.

As for financial risks not covered by profit. Not an excuse for treating staff as an insurance policy.

So there's just workers and bosses? 80% of NZ's economy is generated by small to medium businesses, very few of those involved in such business would agree with you.

And you're right, moving the level of education up alone doesn't create jobs, you need those qualifications to be generating product that people want to buy. And while digging potatoes is an honest and worthwhile career machines do it faster than any human and a lot cheaper than any human can. So learn to build/service machines, it's not an intractable problem.

And if you have a wee look you'll see I actually suggested that there was no excuse for behaving like an arsehole, no matter your profession.

[haydes55]

You're a fucking dreamer.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10779124


"So if petrol cost $2 a litre, just more than 92c would be tax." From that article.

[Virago]

$90 cost.... Add 15% GST =$103.50

What universe do you live in, GST alone would have them losing money for every drop of fuel they sell.

"When you last bought petrol, 67.129 cents per litre was collected by the government as fuel excise (excluding GST)." From aa.co.nz

I have no idea how petrol taxes are organised, but I know for sure a shop keeper doesn't pay GST on stolen goods. So why would they pay the other taxes too?

If a gas station sells gas at $2/L then they get $1.70/L after GST. Take away $0.67129/L they will lose money if they pay any more than $1.02871/L for gas..... Or roughly half of what they charge.... So $100 on the pump, equals $50 to the gas station.

You are 100% correct - in that you have no fucking idea about how tax works.

[JimO]

they could stop drive offs by having a staff member on the forcourt at all times. as well as a till jockey to sell the lollies coffees etc, put the service back into "service station"

[Akzle]

they could stop drive offs by having a staff member on the forcourt at all times. as well as a till jockey to sell the lollies coffees etc, put the service back into "service station"

those fucking assholes at shell have cost me two petrol caps. service, yeah right.

they could stop driveoffs by having an RFID chip embedded in your head that clicks on when you come in and is deactivated once you've paid - the signal lowers the tyre spikes as you leave, unless you haven't paid.

or, a guy with a shotgun. or, you know, police that actually work.

[Madness]

"So if petrol cost $2 a litre, just more than 92c would be tax." From that article.

You can read then? Excellent.

[R650R]

This talk of no profits on fuel sales is an industry perpetuated myth turned into urban legend by last media and people who cant count.

Back when I worked in one, petrol was 80c a litre and the margin was about 7%. I would expect today it would be similar or slightly lower but it DOESN"T matter for the following.

Lets say station x sells 10,000 litres a week at $2 a litre with a net profit of 5%, that's $1000 of pure profit in 7 days.
The station then spends $19,000 of the weekly $20,000 takings to buy another 10,000L and the cycle continues. So that $19,000 of initial capital is tied up buying fuel for the whole year, but over the course of the year it generates $52,000 in pure profit.
Its just like the supermarkets, there is a fine margin and the occasional loss leader but the turnover is huge and very fast.
Compare this to a motorbike shop that might buy a 1199 Pangiale Corsa SP wholsesale for $19,000 but take the whole year or longer to sell it at the retail of $71,000 (lets used that just to keep the numbers common.
Now whoses rolling in the cash, the servo or the bike shop????

[Ocean1]

This talk of no profits on fuel sales is an industry perpetuated myth turned into urban legend by last media and people who cant count.

Back when I worked in one, petrol was 80c a litre and the margin was about 7%. I would expect today it would be similar or slightly lower

I don't know when you worked in one, possible when they were pretty much all owned by the big oil co's, who couldn't give a shit whether they made their profit at wholesale or retail. Now they do, and the retail margin is 3%.


Lets say station x sells 10,000 litres a week at $2 a litre with a net profit of 5%, that's $1000 of pure profit in 7 days.
The station then spends $19,000 of the weekly $20,000 takings to buy another 10,000L and the cycle continues. So that $19,000 of initial capital is tied up buying fuel for the whole year, but over the course of the year it generates $52,000 in pure profit.

Fucking luxury eh? Almost enough to pay a minimum wage teller. But not the rent. Or anything else. In fact once your overheads are paid your numbers represent a huge loss, don't they?

Could it be that your concept of "profit" could do with some work?

[R650R]

I don't know when you worked in one, possible when they were pretty much all owned by the big oil co's, who couldn't give a shit whether they made their profit at wholesale or retail. Now they do, and the retail margin is 3%.



Fucking luxury eh? Almost enough to pay a minimum wage teller. But not the rent. Or anything else. In fact once your overheads are paid your numbers represent a huge loss, don't they?

Could it be that your concept of "profit" could do with some work?

Nearly 20 years ago, privately owned station.
Sole charge so only me and the boss on opposite shifts, Prob a $1000 a week would have covered both of our wages.
Prob sold roughly 15-20,000L of petrol a week and a lot of trucks and rural mini tankers so 20,000L of diesel easy.
Industrial area so we used o sell plenty of bread, milk pies etc.
Owned by a larger business in associated work but certainly turned a profit easily.

Those new bigger sites would have a huge volume of turnover (remember how they colluded to shut down all the smaller sites) so even if you pumped 3% margin into my proof of concept calculations above and bumped the numbers to 50,000 litres or more there would still be profit on the petrol side.
There supermarkets like pak n save wouldn't have gone near installing their own greenfield site fuel pumps if there was no money in it.

[pete376403]

Pak 'n' Save etc might be running the fuel side at low or even no profit in order to get people to purchase from the supermarket. Also the PnS pumps are all prepay / self serve so they are never going to have the problem of docking employees pay for drive offs.

[R650R]

Pak 'n' Save etc might be running the fuel side at low or even no profit in order to get people to purchase from the supermarket. Also the PnS pumps are all prepay / self serve so they are never going to have the problem of docking employees pay for drive offs.

Even at manned sites petrol driveoffs are a pittance compared to daily turnover. Its like that argument that shoplifters (scummy thieves that they are) cause higher grocery prices, NO they don't.
Prices are set by supply and demand and at the higher end of the range tolerated by the local buying public.
PaknSave fuel pump price as about the same as the servos even with the discounts as a lot of them end up being interchangeable or have arrangements with other servos.
Groceries is big business and the old boys club would not be bothering with such huge investment expense in new pumps and real estate not to mention the massive fines under OSH if anything goes wrong with hazardous sites, if there was no money in it.
Yes theres the occasional big discount offered just like they do with other products some times as loss leaders but usually its at full retail price (inflated to cover the usual 6c discounts).
And murphys law you've already filled the tank when those big 35cents of per litre vouchers come out.

From another angle look at something like McDonalds. Low priced product, sold from prime real estate sites and with a heavy staff wage burden.
But the stores turn a tidy profit as stock/ingrediants purchased gets sold/turned over at a very fast rate.

[Scuba_Steve]

Robot maintenance is a skilled job, not manual labor. And other robots would build the robots initially, obviously :rolleyes:

Engineers aren't academics either, engies tend to do things...

like delivering fuel at petrol stations? :laugh:
I know 1 of the stations (think it might be Caltex) call their staff "fuel delivery engineers", another (think Mobil) call em "customer service technicians"

[Woodman]

Even at manned sites petrol driveoffs are a pittance compared to daily turnover. Its like that argument that shoplifters (scummy thieves that they are) cause higher grocery prices, NO they don't.


Yes they do.

Shrinkage will be in the budget of every retailer which will make up a component of the desired margin.

[R650R]

Yes they do.

Shrinkage will be in the budget of every retailer which will make up a component of the desired margin.

Its likely included in the accounting for tax write offs as every penny counts to profit driven big business but the real world reality is its an insignificant cost and to think we would have cheaper groceries if shoplifters stopped is laughable.
It would be a fraction of the cost compared to the meat and produce that is thrown out due to best before dates etc...

[Woodman]

Its likely included in the accounting for tax write offs as every penny counts to profit driven big business but the real world reality is its an insignificant cost and to think we would have cheaper groceries if shoplifters stopped is laughable.
It would be a fraction of the cost compared to the meat and produce that is thrown out due to best before dates etc...

Have you ever read a budget or p and L?

[bogan]

like delivering fuel at petrol stations? :laugh:
I know 1 of the stations (think it might be Caltex) call their staff "fuel delivery engineers", another (think Mobil) call em "customer service technicians"

Fault diagnosing and servicing robotics is a bit more of a skilled job than, retail...

Caltex can fuck right off, we don't even like when the hairys call themselves engineers :bleh:

[FJRider]

It would be a fraction of the cost compared to the meat and produce that is thrown out due to best before dates etc...

It's not thrown out .... where do you think the "In house" baked produce ingredients come from ... "Fresh" stuff .. :killingme

As long as the "Ingredients" are used before the best by dates ... :2thumbsup

[GrayWolf]

like delivering fuel at petrol stations? :laugh:
I know 1 of the stations (think it might be Caltex) call their staff "fuel delivery engineers", another (think Mobil) call em "customer service technicians"

so that would make Akzle's Doctor an

Arsehole Technician? :devil2:

[Akzle]

so that would make Akzle's Doctor an

Arsehole Technician? :devil2:

thanks, i'll let her know she's been promoted
:clap:

[wickle]

Quote Originally Posted by Woodman View Post



Yes they do.

Shrinkage will be in the budget of every retailer which will make up a component of the desired margin.


Shinkage was
estimated to be minimum of 2% of turnover a few years ago

[R650R]

It's not thrown out .... where do you think the "In house" baked produce ingredients come from ... "Fresh" stuff .. :killingme

As long as the "Ingredients" are used before the best by dates ... :2thumbsup

They still thow a lot of shit away.... then there;s the ',marineated meat'....

[Big Dog]

http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/campbelllive/fatal-drive-off-leads-to-law-change-2014112120

[mada]

http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/campbelllive/fatal-drive-off-leads-to-law-change-2014112120

Jesus that's f**king horrible, dragged for 7km's. Hope the bastard who did it was locked away for life.

[R650R]

Well this story just keeps exploding...
Should be a round up of these rogue employers and jail time... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/63526109/supermarkets-refund-docked-wages-as-mbie-steps-in.html