Which lithium battery? Deltran at $229 or SSB from Aus at $136?

[backroader]

Hi folks
these two options seem about the same spec but just wondered if anyone here had experience with either. The SSB might work out a bit cheaper from Australia but has only 180 cca vs the Deltran 240 cca...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SSB-12V-180CCA-LFP9Q-B-Quad-Terminal-Lithium-Battery-12N7-4A-12N7-4B-12N9-4B-/130901363580?ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:AU:1123

http://www.mxshop.co.nz/deltran-battery-tender-lithium-batteries-deltran-lithium-battery-10-14a-12v-l134-x-w65-x-h92-mm-dt-btl14a240c

[Madness]

You should read this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/133375-Shorai-LFX-lithium-batteries?), from start to finish ideally.

[backroader]

You should read this thread (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/133375-Shorai-LFX-lithium-batteries?), from start to finish ideally.

hehe start to finish at 226 pages, in that time I could earn enough to buy 3 of them (well not quite but you get my point)

I went with the SSB. $150 NZ including postage from Australia. I will post an update on how it goes.. or blows...

[Edbear]

I'll be interested to see how it goes. It will be literally the cheap Chinese type and a wee bit underpowered for an F650. The Shorai battery for those is a 14L5 with a 210 CCA rating. RRP is $251.45.

[buggerit]

Now look wat ya done!:facepalm::chase::spanking:

[Edbear]

Now look wat ya done!:facepalm::chase::spanking:

Hee hee! :rolleyes:

[BuzzardNZ]

I'll be interested to see how it goes. It will be literally the cheap Chinese type and a wee bit underpowered for an F650. The Shorai battery for those is a 14L5 with a 210 CCA rating. RRP is $251.45.

As opposed to your more expensive Chinese type!

[AllanB]

Actually Ed has a point. At least if you buy one off him and it starts on fire and burns the end of your knob into something resembling a susage that has been on the BBQ too long because you were more interested in drinking beer than actually cooking the afore mentioned lamb and sage susage, at least you'll be able to come onto KB and slag Ed off.

[Edbear]

As opposed to your more expensive Chinese type!


Actually Ed has a point. At least if you buy one off him and it starts on fire and burns the end of your knob into something resembling a susage that has been on the BBQ too long because you were more interested in drinking beer than actually cooking the afore mentioned lamb and sage susage, at least you'll be able to come onto KB and slag Ed off.

True! But a correcting is in order. While Shorai's factory is in Hong Kong, the batteries use Japanese technology with all design and development along with quality control and testing is done in their own facilities in San Francisco. The brand name is Japanese too. Something else is that being designed and developed independently, the cells are uniquely Shorai's and not mass produced in China like most, if not all, other brands. The only similarity between Shorai's cells and all other prismatic cells, is the general shape.

[nzspokes]

Actually Ed has a point. At least if you buy one off him and it starts on fire and burns the end of your knob into something resembling a susage that has been on the BBQ too long because you were more interested in drinking beer than actually cooking the afore mentioned lamb and sage susage, at least you'll be able to come onto KB and slag Ed off.

You need to start wearing undies around the BBQ.

[Edbear]

You need to start wearing undies around the BBQ.

Preferably flame proof...:niceone:

[Katman]

I'll be interested to see how it goes. It will be literally the cheap Chinese type and a wee bit underpowered for an F650.

But of course, you never slag off the competition.

[bogan]

While Shorai's factory is in Hong Kong


the cells are uniquely Shorai's and not mass produced in China

Odd place to put a factory if nothing is produced there :whistle:

The cell tech is nothing new, traditional chemistry, traditional prismatic cell type, traditional over-hyped marketing spiel. Now A123 nanophosphate, those are some batteries with tech worth going on about...

[BuzzardNZ]

Preferably flame proof...:niceone:

Do you sell these at 'Fire and Light' ? I may need a few pair after last nights vindaloo :sweatdrop

[Edbear]

Do you sell these at 'Fire and Light' ? I may need a few pair after last nights vindaloo :sweatdrop

I am sure I can source them. ..

[backroader]

I'll be interested to see how it goes. It will be literally the cheap Chinese type and a wee bit underpowered for an F650. The Shorai battery for those is a 14L5 with a 210 CCA rating. RRP is $251.45.

Thanks Ed and others for comments, and bbq'd sausage metaphors!

The LFP9Q-B SSB/Skyrich arrived today, and sadly it seems I did pick the wrong one.. although it is 180 CCA it is designed to replace 9AH batteries rather than the 12AH 160 CCA I had in the bike. It states maximum charge current to be 15A, while the f650 alternator apparently delivers 400w (about 30A at 13V which I guess might be 20A after headlights?). Do you think my alternator will melt this one on long open road trips?

I think the SSB I should have got was the LFP12Q-B which has 20A maximum charge... http://www.ssbpowersport.com.au/Products/ProductList/tabid/241/mode/details/pid/621/Default.aspx

I will try it out tomorrow. Do you think this wise? I know you're selling a better fit battery for my bike, but do you honestly think I am at risk of a meltdown?

Cheers!

[caseye]

I am sure I can source them. ..

Yummmmm, Apricot source pleaese, lots of it!!!!!
To our OP, take Ed's advice, buy one of his, they work, without fuss and no danger of being melted down by an over active thyroid alt.

[bogan]

Thanks Ed and others for comments, and bbq'd sausage metaphors!

The LFP9Q-B SSB/Skyrich arrived today, and sadly it seems I did pick the wrong one.. although it is 180 CCA it is designed to replace 9AH batteries rather than the 12AH 160 CCA I had in the bike. It states maximum charge current to be 15A, while the f650 alternator apparently delivers 400w (about 30A at 13V which I guess might be 20A after headlights?). Do you think my alternator will melt this one on long open road trips?

I think the SSB I should have got was the LFP12Q-B which has 20A maximum charge... http://www.ssbpowersport.com.au/Products/ProductList/tabid/241/mode/details/pid/621/Default.aspx

I will try it out tomorrow. Do you think this wise? I know you're selling a better fit battery for my bike, but do you honestly think I am at risk of a meltdown?

Cheers!

Nah, charge current relate to how quickly they can take in the charge, having a charging system that can put out more is no worries. As long as your charging system doesn't go over 14.5V it won't melt the battery on a long trip. The only time the max charge rate comes in to play is when the battery is flat; ie, gets a push start.

If it does an actual 180CCA you'll be just a well off with that one as any of the other 1st gen lithium starter batts.

[Edbear]

Thanks Ed and others for comments, and bbq'd sausage metaphors!

The LFP9Q-B SSB/Skyrich arrived today, and sadly it seems I did pick the wrong one.. although it is 180 CCA it is designed to replace 9AH batteries rather than the 12AH 160 CCA I had in the bike. It states maximum charge current to be 15A, while the f650 alternator apparently delivers 400w (about 30A at 13V which I guess might be 20A after headlights?). Do you think my alternator will melt this one on long open road trips?

I think the SSB I should have got was the LFP12Q-B which has 20A maximum charge... http://www.ssbpowersport.com.au/Products/ProductList/tabid/241/mode/details/pid/621/Default.aspx

I will try it out tomorrow. Do you think this wise? I know you're selling a better fit battery for my bike, but do you honestly think I am at risk of a meltdown?

Cheers!

I doubt it. LiFePO4 batteries are the safest tech and despite some concerns don't tend to catch fire like other Lithium based batteries. There are several Lithium based technologies.

The worst I have had with overcharging is a melted case, but I have had 2 batteries this week which were massively overcharged by faulty regulators and they popped the top off the cases. Only discovered when the vehicle died. The cells swelled up heaps. No damage to the vehicles and no fires.

[Edbear]

PS. In all the nearly four years I have been selling Shorai we have never had one suffer from any bike's normal charging system.

At the 1C charging rate that would normally be 14A but obviously most alternators put out more than that. Shorai only say not to go over 15.2V when charging.

[bogan]

PS. In all the nearly four years I have been selling Shorai we have never had one suffer from any bike's normal charging system.

At the 1C charging rate that would normally be 14A but obviously most alternators put out more than that. Shorai only say not to go over 15.2V when charging.

Brings up a good point, some LFP batteries can increase the load on the charging system, causing it to wear out much quicker. The end result being a charging system that is either dead, or overcharges and destroys the battery (if there is not enough over voltage protection); and as you say, this has happened to a number of Shorais already.
So from that perspective it might be better the OP has chosen on the smaller side.

1C would be the true capacity rating's current, not the pbeq one. So around 4amps for a '14Ahr' LFP replacement battery.

[backroader]

Brings up a good point, some LFP batteries can increase the load on the charging system, causing it to wear out much quicker. The end result being a charging system that is either dead, or overcharges and destroys the battery (if there is not enough over voltage protection); and as you say, this has happened to a number of Shorais already.
So from that perspective it might be better the OP has chosen on the smaller side.

1C would be the true capacity rating's current, not the pbeq one. So around 4amps for a '14Ahr' LFP replacement battery.

Interesting thoughts bogan..

I put the battery in (strait from the box) and went for a half hour ride today. The starter spun the engine alive with a rapidity I don't ever remember from the MotoBatt MB12U lead acid AGM - even when I bought the bike and it was still supposedly still in good condition, so 180cca may well be accurate for the lithium. I'm not too worried about it being only 9Ah at this stage...

The potential risk as I understand it is if the charge of an individual cell within the battery gets too high to the point of meltdown.

Are there ways to periodically check if any of the cells inside are holding disproportionately high charges?

[bogan]

Interesting thoughts bogan..

I put the battery in (strait from the box) and went for a half hour ride today. The starter spun the engine alive with a rapidity I don't ever remember from the MotoBatt MB12U lead acid AGM - even when I bought the bike and it was still supposedly still in good condition, so 180cca may well be accurate for the lithium. I'm not too worried about it being only 9Ah at this stage...

The potential risk as I understand it is if the charge of an individual cell within the battery gets too high to the point of meltdown.

Are there ways to periodically check if any of the cells inside are holding disproportionately high charges?

The rapidity has little to do with CCA, the Lithium batts just have a higher nominal voltage and hold higher voltage under load, so for the same actual CCA a lithium will spin the motor faster.

Yeh that is the risk, it's why we are seeing a number of batts coming out with circuitry built in to do the balancing. If you have a balance port or otherwise can get access to connectors from the 4 cells in series it is fairly easy to do a balance charge every now and then. I have a B-max or something balance charger for RC cars/planes etc, has the right profiles for this tech and you can top balance them all at once. Which reminds me, I probably should do that again to mine.

[bsasuper]

What could you do a LFX14A4-BS12 for EDbear?

[Edbear]

What could you do a LFX14A4-BS12 for EDbear?

For the best deals to KB'rs contact Biggles, Jellywrestler or Swerve. As the National Distributor I have to support my 150+ dealers.

[BlackSheepLogic]

1C would be the true capacity rating's current, not the pbeq one. So around 4amps for a '14Ahr' LFP replacement battery.

I doubt the 4.0Ah would be reached on a "pbeq" 14.0Ah. On the pbeq 19.0Ah balanced charged first, from memory I got 3.35Ah (this is with a "pbeq" 19Ah) with a cutoff voltage of 12.80V which is below the recommended 12.86V. I have a precision DC load (500ppm), next time I balance charge the battery I will test it down to 10.00V which would be as close as I would be willing to discharge a LiFePO4 as even though balanced charged it's almost certain the cells won't discharge at exactly the same rate. There would be a rapid fall off from 10.00V to 9.60V anyway so little actual usable capacity difference.

[bogan]

I doubt the 4.0Ah would be reached on a "pbeq" 14.0Ah. On the pbeq 19.0Ah balanced charged first, from memory I got 3.35Ah (this is with a "pbeq" 19Ah) with a cutoff voltage of 12.80V which is below the recommended 12.86V. I have a precision DC load (500ppm), next time I balance charge the battery I will test it down to 10.00V which would be as close as I would be willing to discharge a LiFePO4 as even though balanced charged it's almost certain the cells won't discharge at exactly the same rate. There would be a rapid fall off from 10.00V to 9.60V anyway so little actual usable capacity difference.

Good info, and good to see others doing some proper checks of the tech.

[BuzzardNZ]

For the best deals to KB'rs contact Biggles, Jellywrestler or Swerve. As the National Distributor I have to support my 150+ dealers.

So do KB'rs get a discounted rate on these?

[Edbear]

So do KB'rs get a discounted rate on these?

These guys are both KB'rs and running their own businesses, using their Shorai dealerships to assist with costs in their racing. While I haven't asked them specifically what prices they charge KB'rs or other racer's in general, I am sure they would be the best to ask.

Of course you can approach any dealer of any product and ask for a discount depending whether you have one nearby. My RRP to the dealer's is only that, a recommended retail price and they are free to charge whatever they feel comfortable with. Some charge more than others, so as with most things, it can pay to shop around.

[BuzzardNZ]

These guys are both KB'rs and running their own businesses, using their Shorai dealerships to assist with costs in their racing. While I haven't asked them specifically what prices they charge KB'rs or other racer's in general, I am sure they would be the best to ask.

Of course you can approach any dealer of any product and ask for a discount depending whether you have one nearby. My RRP to the dealer's is only that, a recommended retail price and they are free to charge whatever they feel comfortable with. Some charge more than others, so as with most things, it can pay to shop around.

I don't ask for discounts unless I know there is one available.

So when you say 'best deals for KB'rs' , that actually translates into 'the same price anyone off the street' pays , unless you beg them for a discount?

[Edbear]

I don't ask for discounts unless I know there is one available.

So when you say 'best deals for KB'rs' , that actually translates into 'the same price anyone off the street' pays , unless you beg them for a discount?

I am sorry but I can't get too specific in the interests of being impartial and fair to all my dealers so I can only recommend as I have and let you contact them yourselves.

[nzspokes]

I don't ask for discounts unless I know there is one available.

So when you say 'best deals for KB'rs' , that actually translates into 'the same price anyone off the street' pays , unless you beg them for a discount?
Why would you ask for a discount on something don't want to buy?

[BuzzardNZ]

Why would you ask for a discount on something don't want to buy?

I was just curious about what the 'best deals for KB'rs' meant. Turns out it means nothing.

[nzspokes]

I was just curious about what the 'best deals for KB'rs' meant. Turns out it means nothing.
Washed you're bike since the last service?

[BuzzardNZ]

Washed you're bike since the last service?

What on earth has that got to do with the price of batteries ? :scratch:

As it happens, I got it serviced last week and they washed it for me, should get another 6 months before it needs a clean :rolleyes:

[bogan]

As it happens, I got it serviced last week and they washed it for me, should get another 6 months before it needs a clean :rolleyes:

I was thinking that's a bit long, but then I noticed its an SV; they're pretty much farm bikes so 6 monthly cleans should be plenty.