Don't lend your bike, car, skateboard, etc.

[Lou Girardin]

Police have charged a Hawera man with manslaughter after a 4 year old girl driving his quad rolled it and was killed.
Manslaughter?

[bugjuice]

responsibility/in charge of a minor. Altho I can't see how it's manslaughter really
sad tho

[madboy]

Manslaughter is unintentionally causing someones death. So if he did (I dont' know the facts) then it's manslaughter like it or not.

Generally speaking (I'll say again - I DON'T KNOW THE FACTS THAT APPLY TO THIS SITUATION) putting a 4yo in charge of a quad is a big call - that's a lot of responsibility to be putting on someone so young and immature. I look at Frosty's little one tearing around the pits at events and he's fine. He knows what to do and what not to. I imagine on a quad he'd be fine. My little one, same age, has never seen a pit in her life, and would freak out and probably end up getting hurt. She's not going near a quad in a hurry. Comes down to the individual kid I guess.

All said and done, my heart goes out to the guy and family members. The death is a terrible thing to start with, and criminal charges is like twisting the knife. But it's the adults job to protect the children.

[sels1]

But it's the adults job to protect the children.

Absolutely right. Adults have to take responsibility for their actions, or lack of them.

[Ixion]

'Tis a matter of supervision. Applies to kids (indeed, even to untrained adults) in all situations.

Technically the manslaughter bit will relate to negligence. Leaving a child in a potentially dangerous situation and failing to supervise/watch over the kid is negligent. If someone dies as a result of your negligence, that's manslaughter. Bit of a tough call in this case I wuld have thought though. Still, not knowing the details, can't comment

[Wolf]

Didn't we use to have a "Criminal Negligence" charge? Not 100% sure how it was used - IANAL, after all - but I think it was for anything where harm was done through the failure of a person to take due care.

From a layman's viewpoint, I would think he was more negligent in not ensuring the child was safe (inaction) than guilty of manslaughter - which I perceive to be more action-focused (doing something careless and causing death, like accidentally running over someone with a vehicle).

e.g. I would expect a manslaughter charge if I shot someone through failing to consider the bullet may miss my intended target and hit someone on the other side of the bushes; but I would expect "Criminal Negligence" if someone picked up a loaded firearm I had carelessly left lying around and accidentally shot themselves.

Can someone clarify?

[Lou Girardin]

I don't recall manslaughter charges being laid after car/house fires where kids were killed.

[bungbung]

I don't recall manslaughter charges being laid after car/house fires where kids were killed.

You wouldn't consider it likely that your house might catch fire.

You could consider it likely that a 4 year old would crash a quad.

[Ixion]

Didn't we use to have a "Criminal Negligence" charge? Not 100% sure how it was used - IANAL, after all - but I think it was for anything where harm was done through the failure of a person to take due care.

From a layman's viewpoint, I would think he was more negligent in not ensuring the child was safe (inaction) than guilty of manslaughter - which I perceive to be more action-focused (doing something careless and causing death, like accidentally running over someone with a vehicle).

e.g. I would expect a manslaughter charge if I shot someone through failing to consider the bullet may miss my intended target and hit someone on the other side of the bushes; but I would expect "Criminal Negligence" if someone picked up a loaded firearm I had carelessly left lying around and accidentally shot themselves.

Can someone clarify?


From the Crimes Act 1961



CRIMES ACT 1961
PART 8 - CRIMES AGAINST THE PERSON
Homicide
160. Culpable homicide—
Popup window showing references for this document

160.Culpable homicide—




(1)Homicide may be either culpable or not culpable.


(2)Homicide is culpable when it consists in the killing of any person—


(a)By an unlawful act; or


(b)By an omission without lawful excuse to perform or observe any legal duty; or


(c)By both combined; or


(d)By causing that person by threats or fear of violence, or by deception, to do an act which causes his death; or


(e)By wilfully frightening a child under the age of 16 years or a sick person.


(3)Except as provided in section 178 of this Act, culpable homicide is either murder or manslaughter.


(4)Homicide that is not culpable is not an offence.



And the person in charge of a child or infant has a legal duty to care for it and take reasonable steps to shield it from danger. So if he fails to do so that is culpable homicide. Since there is no intent (no malice aforethought) it can't be murder - therefore must be homicide.

But, IANAL

[Beemer]

While I have great sympathy for the guy - it was apparently his daughter who was killed - leaving a four year-old unattended anywhere near a 300cc quad - note, it was not a kid's quad bike - is irresponsible. I think the charge is a little unusual, but perhaps a cop could help us out by explaining the options open to them regarding charges.

I think the police have to be seen as not condoning this kind of accident so they have to charge him to set a precedent and ensure this doesn't happen again - bit like swimming pool fencing.

I am not interested in the gory details, but how a kid that age could even get a quad moving is beyond me - they're big and they're heavy. Perhaps the father had left it running and she climbed on and took off - who knows.

[FROSTY]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading

OHH and on the Baby Bikie on Quad thing.
In the pits he really is sensible and on his quad hes well aware of danger.
Hes had all his short life to learn whats safe and whats not. I genuinely believe he is safer in the pits than some adults.
BUT if EVER any of you see him doing something dangerous when Im not watching. I will thank you profusely if ya kick his ass for me . Yes MY son DADS eyes are everywhere

[Keystone19]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading


There was an example earlier in the year when a woman organising the Christchurch to Akaroa bicycle race was charged with homicide following the death of a participant who crossed the centre line into on-coming traffic.

This has had major ramifications for all subsequent events of this nature (adventure racing, multisport etc) and resulted in the cancellation of many smaller events, hugely increased entry fees for those that remain, and, of course, the signing of indemnity waivers for participants.

Having said that, safety standards have increased ten-fold at all the events I have participated in since this time. With some overkill occasionally.

[FROSTY]

While I have great sympathy for the guy - it was apparently his daughter who was killed - leaving a four year-old unattended anywhere near a 300cc quad - note, it was not a kid's quad bike - is irresponsible. I think the charge is a little unusual, but perhaps a cop could help us out by explaining the options open to them regarding charges.

I think the police have to be seen as not condoning this kind of accident so they have to charge him to set a precedent and ensure this doesn't happen again - bit like swimming pool fencing.

I am not interested in the gory details, but how a kid that age could even get a quad moving is beyond me - they're big and they're heavy. Perhaps the father had left it running and she climbed on and took off - who knows.
a big quad is easier to get started than a kids quad.
the ignition cut out is usually in the park brake -so the kid turns it on and hits the button -
If the lil lady was anything like Baby bikie shes probably ridden a quad on her dads lap for years
Keep in mind too folks --Unless you are a parent you have no idea how fast a determined 4 year old can move -You could start hunting for em 20 seconds after theyre outa your sight--barely time for a pee --and they could be heading off in a direction you wouldn't imagine.
Baby bikie at 4 decided to WALK the 2.5 km to my place from his mothers place. he was in a fully fenced yard and she had gone inside for a moment---Time enough for him to climb the fence and start walking to my place.

[Keystone19]

Keep in mind too folks --Unless you are a parent you have no idea how fast a determined 4 year old can move -You could start hunting for em 20 seconds after theyre outa your sight--barely time for a pee --and they could be heading off in a direction you wouldn't imagine. .

That is so true. By the time my boy was four, he could start our jeep and put it in gear. He spends a heap of time around our workshop so knows what he should and shouldn't do around cars, but you do need eyes in the back of your head at all times. They move damn fast.

I really feel for that family. An absolute tragedy.

[Ixion]

This has ramifications right through our sport.
An example --I'm racing with another guy at say taupo.
Im behind him and think I see a gap up the inside --As Im alongside he sees me freaks out and runs wide -crashes cand dies.
Am I responsible for his death??
Or is the organiser responsible?
Given the two recent examples could I be prosecutted for dangerous driving causing death??
Yea we sighn waivers and indemneties but thats only against the families--doesn't leave any mention of police prosecution.
Yea its rediculous -but it does seem to be the way were heading

OHH and on the Baby Bikie on Quad thing.
In the pits he really is sensible and on his quad hes well aware of danger.
Hes had all his short life to learn whats safe and whats not. I genuinely believe he is safer in the pits than some adults.
BUT if EVER any of you see him doing something dangerous when Im not watching. I will thank you profusely if ya kick his ass for me . Yes MY son DADS eyes are everywhere


It's all about REASONABLE care. If your actions are reasonable in the circumstances, and someone still dies, that's not (usually) manslaughter. Just bad luck. So , in the racing example you instance, your actions would usually be regarded as reasonable under the circumstances. The other guy would presumably have had a racing licence, he knows (or ought to) what happens on the track. Different if the track was being used to teach beginner riders, and you decided "stuff them, I'll show the noobs what a real rider can do". In that case a jury might think you were not being reasonable.

It also depends on whether you have any duty of care toward the dead person, and if so, how much. One racer doesn't have much of a duty toward another - just to follow the race rules, and not do something stupid. Racer is considered a big boy, able to look after himself. Person in charge of a child has a far greater duty of care. Children are not good at looking after themselves.

Whether the behaviour was reasonable is a matter for a jury to decide in each case - did the accused take reasonable care or not, given all the circumstances.

Baby Bikie - same thing. Parents have a legal duty to take care of children. But that doesn't mean wrapping them in cotton wool. Question is, given Baby Bikie's understanding, training , experience, is it reasonable.

Difference here between "Well, my kid has ridden that machine many times, I trained and taught him what to do, and I'm just over here keeping an eye on him" on one hand, and "I'm supposed to be looking after this kid, but stuff it,I want to go to the pub. I'll set it playing around on the quad, that'll keep it amused , while I go and have a beer" on the other hand. PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying or implying that the latter scenario is what happened in this tragic case - just putting forward two extreme cases as illustration.

IANAL

[Lou Girardin]

I've always wondered what is to be gained by charging parents when a child dies in these circumstances. What punishment could be worse for any parent than to know they could have prevented the childs death?

[Wolf]

I fully endorse what Frosty and Keystone have said - the cubs at 2 and 3 are more than capable of activating dangerous equipment. The oldest knows how to work the electric start on a motorcycle - he can climb up onto a bike, turn on a key and push a starter button. Needless to say, the cubs are watched like hawks around motorcycles...

Both are very capable and they move quicker than people suspect a lot of the time. They're also quite strong and can move fairly heavy objects, which means they can move quite a heavy chair or box if it'll help them gain access to whatever has taken their fancy...

[FROSTY]

Yup --your cubs sound like baby baby bikie- He's dynamite at 2 years old he thinks he can do everything his brother can do.
Mind you interesting --I tried to force him to touch the warm muffler on my bike -hot enough to shock not enough to burn. He wouldnt have a bar of it.
He without any real showing by me has picked up on what is not safe and what is safe around my gargre.

[strayjuliet]

Mind you interesting --I tried to force him to touch the warm muffler on my bike -hot enough to shock not enough to burn. He wouldnt have a bar of it.
.

Wolf took the M50 Boulevard for a test ride and, when he came back, our oldest cub (3) went running up to the M50 and put his hand on the hot muffler - even though we had told him many times not to.
I think it's because he loves motorbikes so much that he thinks its ok to climb on every single bike he sees, not realizing that they can hurt him, especially if he touches the wrong place.
When Wolf came out to my parents place 1 day to pick me up on his bike, I climbed on and accidentally put my leg against the exhaust and ended up with a second degree burn on my leg from which I still to this day (over 3 years later) have the scar.
It just goes to show even as adults we can do some silly things without thinking. :scooter:

[spudchucka]

Police have charged a Hawera man with manslaughter after a 4 year old girl driving his quad rolled it and was killed.
Manslaughter?
Knowing some of the facts involved I would say now is a good time to shut the fuck up!

[geoffm]

This was a 300cc quad - not a little LT50 tiddler bike. Bit of a handful for a young kid. Wouldn't let my boy who is close to that age (and has no fear) ride a quad.
Geoff

[Lou Girardin]

Knowing some of the facts involved I would say now is a good time to shut the fuck up!

How about sharing the facts or shutting the fuck up.

[spudchucka]

How about sharing the facts or shutting the fuck up.
I have a connection to this that has nothing to do with my job so I'm not about to share anything with a fucken over opinionated retard like you.

My advice again is to shut the fuck up!

[Lou Girardin]

I have a connection to this that has nothing to do with my job so I'm not about to share anything with a fucken over opinionated retard like you.

My advice again is to shut the fuck up!

Try and get over your preconceived notions of what the thread is about and read it.
Then take several deep breaths before you touch the keyboard.

[scumdog]

I've always wondered what is to be gained by charging parents when a child dies in these circumstances. What punishment could be worse for any parent than to know they could have prevented the childs death?

Might show to others there IS a consequence and make 'em think?? I dunno.

[Lou Girardin]

Might show to others there IS a consequence and make 'em think?? I dunno.

Maybe. But it doesn't seem to stop kids getting run over in driveways.
I can't imagine anything worse.

[Patrick]

Unsure of you missed the point of the thread Spud...everyone agrees that the kid shouldn't be on a bike. How it came about, well, we all have to wait and see as it is before the courts.

Your point though, hasn't been missed.

Be careful people, you never know who is out there in KB land that can be affected by this type of tragedy...

[Lou Girardin]

Unsure of you missed the point of the thread Spud...everyone agrees that the kid shouldn't be on a bike. How it came about, well, we all have to wait and see as it is before the courts.

Your point though, hasn't been missed.

Be careful people, you never know who is out there in KB land that can be affected by this type of tragedy...

True, but there was nothing said that was at all critical or disrespectful till the Spudmeister turned feral.

[Patrick]

True, but there was nothing said that was at all critical or disrespectful till the Spudmeister turned feral.

Fair call, but being newish I get the impression you and him don't see eye to eye? This sounded like it was a little close to home for him perhaps?

[spudchucka]

Try and get over your preconceived notions of what the thread is about and read it.
Then take several deep breaths before you touch the keyboard.
Or then again I could just tell you to shut the fuck up again!

[scumdog]

I've always wondered what is to be gained by charging parents when a child dies in these circumstances. What punishment could be worse for any parent than to know they could have prevented the childs death?

2nd go: maybe nothing but look at all the paper suppliers and printers etc that would make $$$$ out of this!! ( and don't worry, with a lot that is all they think about!)

[spudchucka]

Unsure of you missed the point of the thread Spud...everyone agrees that the kid shouldn't be on a bike.
I've seen more than enough of Lou's fuck the pigs threads in the past. He is just fishing for more FTP points. His first post implies that the police have gone OTT in laying manslaughter charges.


Police have charged a Hawera man with manslaughter after a 4 year old girl driving his quad rolled it and was killed.
Manslaughter?

The only source of information he has is the media, which is utterly unreliable but that doesn't ever matter to him when there are points to be scored. Therefore his point is nothing but pure speculation for the sake of getting another pig bashing thread up and running.

I have other sources and I'm suggesting that he doesn't know what he is talking about and should leave the topic alone.

[scumdog]

The only source of information he has is the media, which is utterly unreliable but that doesn't ever matter to him when there are points to be scored. I have other sources and I'm suggesting that he doesn't know what he is talking about and should leave the topic alone.

Quite right Spud, just look at 'Sir Helens' response to Waitara, any other person saying THAT would have had the pants sued off them.*
Eff the butch-bitch, put a gun to my head and I would still NOT vote for her..
*Luckily 'Sir Helen' don't wear pants eh?

[spudchucka]

Quite right Spud, just look at 'Sir Helens' response to Waitara, any other person saying THAT would have had the pants sued off them.*
Eff the butch-bitch, put a gun to my head and I would still NOT vote for her..
*Luckily 'Sir Helen' don't wear pants eh?
Don't get me started! :angry2:

[scumdog]

Don't get me started! :angry2:


Oh, and the 'Motorcade' thing....

[Lou Girardin]

I've seen more than enough of Lou's fuck the pigs threads in the past. He is just fishing for more FTP points. His first post implies that the police have gone OTT in laying manslaughter charges.



The only source of information he has is the media, which is utterly unreliable but that doesn't ever matter to him when there are points to be scored. Therefore his point is nothing but pure speculation for the sake of getting another pig bashing thread up and running.

I have other sources and I'm suggesting that he doesn't know what he is talking about and should leave the topic alone.

Sensitive little soul aren't you spudster. Trying reading within the context of the post. Not what you think it says. Because your strike rate isn't very good so far.
Never mind though, a change of bosses, some emphasis on investigating/preventing some real crimes and you'll have public respect again.

[spudchucka]

Trying reading within the context of the post.
With you the context never varies.

[spudchucka]

Never mind though, a change of bosses, some emphasis on investigating/preventing some real crimes and you'll have public respect again.
There you go.... thats what its all about for you. Is manslaughter not real enough for you? You're full of it! :bs: