New batteries

[nudemetalz]

Greetings,

What's the opinion of what you do with new batteries with you guys (and gals) ?

I bought one recently for the VT from a shop in ChCh. It came in a box with the acid in the bottle. They told me to put it in myself and then leave for approx 30 minutes and should be good to go.
This I did (it's not easy BTW) and left for 60 mins just to be on the safe side.

Now that was 2 weeks ago and now the VT is beginning to have flat-battery syndrome.

Could I have stuffed up the procedure ?
Are you supposed to charge the battery first like some people on the net say ?

Tomorrow I'm going to get the charging system of the VT tested so as to see if the regulator is worn out or not.

What you reckon ?


Cheers
Chris

[Motu]

It's a good idea to put a dry charged battery on a trickle charge for a few hours after you fill it with acid,but they will work straight off.More likely a charging problem,a dud battery is fairly rare.

[Gremlin]

When I bought a battery for the ZZR from Mt Eden, they filled it up and either offered to pop it on charge for me overnight for x time or I could take it home and charge it myself.

Luckily a friend had a charger so I carefully took it home in my backpack :lol:

But yes, you need to charge it is my understanding. Also, when charging you need to take the caps out and rest them on the top to allow for the build up of gas.

[nudemetalz]

oh for sure, definitely take the caps off,
it's just more of a question of the filling procedure as I've never had to fill my own battery before and it's no fun playing around with sulphuric acid.....

I think I may have also inadvertantly overfilled a couple of the chambers, (like gone above the "high" mark) while trying to use the squeeze bottle supplied.
Would that shorten the battery life ?

[scumdog]

oh for sure, definitely take the caps off,
it's just more of a question of the filling procedure as I've never had to fill my own battery before and it's no fun playing around with sulphuric acid.....

I think I may have also inadvertantly overfilled a couple of the chambers, (like gone above the "high" mark) while trying to use the squeeze bottle supplied.
Would that shorten the battery life ?

No, but it MAY cause an overflow situation when the battery gets hot and battery acid leaking over everything.

[nudemetalz]

No haven't had that, so mustn't have overfilled by much.

[nudemetalz]

hmmm,..it's pointing to a regulator being faulty with this discussion being had.

I guess it's only a matter over putting a multimeter across and see what charge is being outputted when starting. Supposed to not drop past 9 Volts and when running be around 13.2 if I remember rightly.
Is that true ?

[zadok]

It's a good idea to put a dry charged battery on a trickle charge for a few hours after you fill it with acid,but they will work straight off.
That's always been my understanding and I usually get a good 3 years out of a battery. I go for the Chinese/Korean/Taiwan ones that cost about $100.
The last battery I got, the shop charged it for me at no extra charge.

[nudemetalz]

My VT250 one musta been dirt cheap at $30 then !!!

[John]

The last battery I got, the shop charged it for me at no extra charge.

No pun intended :clap:

[scumdog]

Just as a matter of interest, my '97 H-D Sportster is still running the original battery!!

Keep it charged and keep using the bike and you'll have minimal problems.

[zadok]

I was a poet and I didn't even know it! :motu:

[Flyingpony]

I've recently purchased a battery which also came with battery acid in tiny bottles in a box from a Chch shop as you did.

Except, the bike shop kindly asked me have I done this before and do I have a battery charger at home. No and no were my answers. They then kindly told me to return tomorrow and collect my new battery. They filled it up, placed it on over night charge at no extra charge.

[nudemetalz]

Good stuff, Flyingpony...as after this experience, that tiny bottle is really hard to put acid in and I'm not going to do it myself again.

Lesson learnt !!
BTW I'm not blaming the shop in any way whatsoever, I should have been more prudent with this.

Chris.

[MSTRS]

If a bike charges the same way as a car does, then your battery needs to be near if not fully charged for the charging system to work properly. Something to do with needing electricity to create electricity. Otherwise all you are doing is using the electricity from the alternator to 'subsidise' the battery powering the coils, lights etc.

[vifferman]

If you look at a battery website, like Yuasa, a battery is supposed to be put on a charger after the acid's added, not just used straight away.

If you put a multimeter across the battery terminals, the battery should read over 12V at rest; with the bike running, the voltage should increase as the revs do, ranging from over 13V at idle to over 14 at 5krpm.
Check also the terminals - make sure they are secure, and that the earth connection and other connectors in the charging system wiring loom are secure, have no corroded contacts, discoloured wires / plugs. (You can trace the wires backward from the battery to work out which wires to check: they'll go from the battery positive, through the main fuse and starter relay, to the R/R, from there to the stator.

[nudemetalz]

Thanks Vifferman,

I checked out the terminals and they're absol fine. All the wiring looks fine too.
So I've got the wife to drop it passed Sawyers here in Welly to get the charge output checked as you say. Then it's just a process of elimination.

Chris.

[nudemetalz]

BTW, VT's are dead-easy to push start,...the NZ-250 (single-cylinder) don't even bother !!!

[vifferman]

If a bike charges the same way as a car does, then your battery needs to be near if not fully charged for the charging system to work properly. Something to do with needing electricity to create electricity. Otherwise all you are doing is using the electricity from the alternator to 'subsidise' the battery powering the coils, lights etc.
Not exactly, Dude.
But if the battery is really sad, and your runs are short, then the battery will never get fully charged, as too little current is left after powering lights etc. It's just maths - a stator/alternator has a finite output, and the system is designed to not have a lot of watts spare, just a little left over after all the ignition, running lights, indicators etc are taken into account. On a long run, the battery will charge up OK, even if it started out pretty flat.
However, if the battery is REALLY sad, so it doesn't hold a charge, or the charging system has a fault, then the bike will conk out once battery voltage drops too low, as a minimum is needed to charge coils, run the fuel pump, etc.

[Zed]

If you put a multimeter across the battery terminals, the battery should read over 12V at rest; with the bike running, the voltage should increase as the revs do, ranging from over 13V at idle to over 14 at 5krpm.
Check also the terminals - make sure they are secure, and that the earth connection and other connectors in the charging system wiring loom are secure, have no corroded contacts, discoloured wires / plugs. (You can trace the wires backward from the battery to work out which wires to check: they'll go from the battery positive, through the main fuse and starter relay, to the R/R, from there to the stator.Good advice. It pays to check all these things out before shelling out for a new battery, this same principle applies to other parts of the bike as well, eg. I thought I had a serious problem with my engine making a knocking noise but it turned out to be a worn chain and sprocket/s...lucky I didn't pay someone to take the engine apart eh!

I too recently bought a new battery and within 6 weeks (surprised it lasted that long) it was dead flat. Turned out the be a faulty regulator/rectifier, so I could have saved buying the new battery to begin with! :whistle:

[Flyingpony]

My VT250 one musta been dirt cheap at $30 then !!!
Is your battery one with clear white plastic and red little caps on top of it?
You'll then also be checking and toping up its acid level from time to time.

They're cheaper than our units, by at least 1/2 price.
We're running black cap less sealed units. These are fit and forget.
My battery also carries part of the seat weight.

[nudemetalz]

Yeah, mine's that with little white caps, but yes it's not sealed, so will have to check and keep the levels topped up.

Is there much difference between using distilled water and ordinary tap water for topping up ?

[Flyingpony]

Yeah, mine's that with little white caps, but yes it's not sealed, so will have to check and keep the levels topped up.

Is there much difference between using distilled water and ordinary tap water for topping up ?
Tap water has extra impurities in it, while distilled water doesn't and thus is better to use than tap water.
Best to use battery acid itself as over time acid concentration might dilute making the battery ineffective.

Well, that's my understanding.

Anyway, I tend to use tap water which has been boiled. Have yet to find a place which sells battery acid.

[vifferman]

You're OK topping up with just distilled water. If a battery hasn't physically lost any acid (by say, being tipped upside down) then there's no need to add more acid, and doing so may be a stupid idea. A non-sealed battery loses a little moisture (steam) as it charges, so the acid has become more concentrated. If you add more acid to it, you're doing the wrong thing.

Tap water contains dust, dissolved minerals, bacteria, alls sorts of crap. If you use this in a battery, it will cause sedimentation between the plates, which could short them out (meaning the battery has less voltage). Always use distilled water. I did this religiously with my VF500, and the battery was still going well after nearly 7 years in the bike!
BTW - you can buy distilled water from some supermarkets. We use it in the cars (bike has sealed battery), the steam-iron, stuff like that.

[vifferman]

I too recently bought a new battery and within 6 weeks (surprised it lasted that long) it was dead flat. Turned out the be a faulty regulator/rectifier, so I could have saved buying the new battery to begin with! :whistle:
Yeah, but you always think that.
It probably wasn't a bad idea to buy a new one anyway.

You think that's bad - I did it TWICE! You'd think after having to replace the battery and R/R on the VFR750, when I started having the same symptoms on the VTR I'd be wise to it and check it out thoroughly.
No.
Firstly, I thought the VTR was immune (it's actually more prone to failures than the VFR, as the R/R is pathetically weedy). Secondly, I didn't do my testing properly. I looked at (some of) the symptoms, and jumped to a conclusion. Still had to replace the R/R, regardless of what I thought.

[nudemetalz]

Ah right, thought distilled water was the way to go.

Cheers and love the V-4 Avatar Vifferman.

BTW, What model VF-500 did you own ?
I used to own one too, it was the second model (1986) which had a lower redline (11,500) and couple of extra hps.

Chris.

[vifferman]

Ah right, thought distilled water was the way to go.

Cheers and love the V-4 Avatar Vifferman.
No worries.


BTW, What model VF-500 did you own ?
I used to own one too, it was the second model (1986) which had a lower redline (11,500) and couple of extra hps.
I think mine was a 1985. I bought it in 1994 and sold it in 2000.

[nudemetalz]

I loved my VF500 and regretted selling it for the 1986 GSXR400.
Sure it was faster around corners and as fast in a straight line, but the VF could tour and criuse in comfort....ahhh the lusty 360o V4 motor, still remember it well.

Anyway getting off the subject here. I'll let you know what Mr Shop says about the R/R quality.

Thanks for all of the help, peoples

Cheers
Chris

[Ixion]

Originally Posted by MSTRS
If a bike charges the same way as a car does, then your battery needs to be near if not fully charged for the charging system to work properly. Something to do with needing electricity to create electricity. Otherwise all you are doing is using the electricity from the alternator to 'subsidise' the battery powering the coils, lights etc.


Not exactly, Dude.
But if the battery is really sad, and your runs are short, then the battery will never get fully charged, as too little current is left after powering lights etc. It's just maths - a stator/alternator has a finite output, and the system is designed to not have a lot of watts spare, just a little left over after all the ignition, running lights, indicators etc are taken into account. On a long run, the battery will charge up OK, even if it started out pretty flat.
However, if the battery is REALLY sad, so it doesn't hold a charge, or the charging system has a fault, then the bike will conk out once battery voltage drops too low, as a minimum is needed to charge coils, run the fuel pump, etc.


What he was thinking of, is that the battery has to have enough power to excite the coils in the alternator. The old Lucas alternators used permanent magnets in the rotor. So once the engine was turning you always got power generated. But a lot of later alternators use coil rotor magnets. So there is no magnetism in the rotor until those coils are energised. Not enough current in the battery to energise the rotor coils = no current generated. So push starting on a TOTALLY flat battery may not work. But it has to be TOTALLY flat for that to apply.

[Paul in NZ]

Learn about charging batteries here....

http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm

Fault finding chart included

[vifferman]

What he was thinking of, is that the battery has to have enough power to excite the coils in the alternator. The old Lucas alternators used permanent magnets in the rotor. So once the engine was turning you always got power generated. But a lot of later alternators use coil rotor magnets. So there is no magnetism in the rotor until those coils are energised. Not enough current in the battery to energise the rotor coils = no current generated. So push starting on a TOTALLY flat battery may not work. But it has to be TOTALLY flat for that to apply.
Aah.
True, dat. :yes:
When I went to test ride my VF500 before buying it, the salesdude jumpstarted it off another bike. However, the battery was so knackered that every time he went to disconnect the leads, the motor would conk out.
Same thing happened on my VFR750 when the R/R was toast. The battery was fine, but flat, and there were insufficient ergs to get anything to work. So, I charged it up, and that was just enough to run the bike as a total-loss electrical system as far as the dealer's about 3 km away, then it died.

[nudemetalz]

Well, the VT came back....
the mechanic multimetered and tested the charging system and got a reading of 18 volts !!!!!!!!! Basically cooking my new battery. That's why I couldn't figure out that it had little acid in it after less than 2 weeks.

So the R/R is knackered.
Malcolm of Econohonda has kindely got one on the courier to me.

BTW : If you need any Honda parts, he is the man !!!


Cheers
Chris

[Motu]

What he was thinking of, is that the battery has to have enough power to excite the coils in the alternator. The old Lucas alternators used permanent magnets in the rotor. So once the engine was turning you always got power generated. But a lot of later alternators use coil rotor magnets. So there is no magnetism in the rotor until those coils are energised. Not enough current in the battery to energise the rotor coils = no current generated. So push starting on a TOTALLY flat battery may not work. But it has to be TOTALLY flat for that to apply.

Like XS650s,with a flat battery you can push it down the biggest hill all the way to the bottom and it won't start.Took me awhile to cotton on when my XS1 had it's first flat battery - it just seems so wrong to hook up jumper leads to a kick start bike...

[Flyingpony]

That might explain why my old Suzuki always started even without a battery but the old Honda required a battery, probably with a charge too. The Honda was always a real bugger to get started.