Safety issue?

[RideLife]

A Guy with a 'Private sale' 600cc track bike brought it into the shop a couple of months ago for something, and I told him at that time, the bike had an issue that made it unsafe in my opinion, and he should fix it before using it.

Today I'm asked to do a service and tyres on this same track only bike, and I see, though he has been to Vic club & MotoTT track days, he has not fixed the issue.
So let me tell you the issue, and please tell me if I am being over the top picky, or if I should be giving him a Stern lecture!

On his bike the front brake lever hits against the faring when bars are at full lock. This causes the brake to come on.
I see this as being dangerous, as if the bike was to develop a 'tank slapper' while on track, and the tyre touch down again while brake locked up, he is just Doubling the problems and increasing the likelihood of a Crash.
While that's his choice, for that to happen while Others are riding around him is unacceptable to me, espeally when he has known about it for Two Months, and he can (or he could pay us to) fix it. (not just an easy move lever fix)
He may not come back to our shop again if I take a Hard line on it, but I rather that than have my mates put at this risk.

Am I being 'over the top', or is it time to give him a Hard Word??
Is the Risk enough to bother You?

Cheers
Racey

[haydes55]

Ring the organisers of the track days and let them know. Tell him the clubs won't let the bike back on the track til it's rectified.

[sidecar bob]

Everything on a bike, racebike or other should be as good as it is able to be, you are correct in being concerned.
If nothing else, print your concerns on his invoice & have him sign it to say he has read & understood the situation.

[Rhys]

30 seconds and no cost and it is fixed ! :no:

[avgas]

Clearly the brake lever needs to be removed. This is a race-bike we are talking about no?

[Billy]

A Guy with a 'Private sale' 600cc track bike brought it into the shop a couple of months ago for something, and I told him at that time, the bike had an issue that made it unsafe in my opinion, and he should fix it before using it.

Today I'm asked to do a service and tyres on this same track only bike, and I see, though he has been to Vic club & MotoTT track days, he has not fixed the issue.
So let me tell you the issue, and please tell me if I am being over the top picky, or if I should be giving him a Stern lecture!

On his bike the front brake lever hits against the faring when bars are at full lock. This causes the brake to come on.
I see this as being dangerous, as if the bike was to develop a 'tank slapper' while on track, and the tyre touch down again while brake locked up, he is just Doubling the problems and increasing the likelihood of a Crash.
While that's his choice, for that to happen while Others are riding around him is unacceptable to me, espeally when he has known about it for Two Months, and he can (or he could pay us to) fix it. (not just an easy move lever fix)
He may not come back to our shop again if I take a Hard line on it, but I rather that than have my mates put at this risk.

Am I being 'over the top', or is it time to give him a Hard Word??
Is the Risk enough to bother You?

Cheers
Racey

Absolutely not Alex,

To meet MNZ requirements, The handlebars must be able to remain clear of the bodywork at all times, But the problem being,As there is for the best part no scrutineering taking place, and what is being done is inadequate, The problem will remain, Your best approach would be to mention it in writing to him and advise the GMO of the name of the competitor for them to deal with.

[jasonu]

A Guy with a 'Private sale' 600cc track bike brought it into the shop a couple of months ago for something, and I told him at that time, the bike had an issue that made it unsafe in my opinion, and he should fix it before using it.

Today I'm asked to do a service and tyres on this same track only bike, and I see, though he has been to Vic club & MotoTT track days, he has not fixed the issue.
So let me tell you the issue, and please tell me if I am being over the top picky, or if I should be giving him a Stern lecture!

On his bike the front brake lever hits against the faring when bars are at full lock. This causes the brake to come on.
I see this as being dangerous, as if the bike was to develop a 'tank slapper' while on track, and the tyre touch down again while brake locked up, he is just Doubling the problems and increasing the likelihood of a Crash.
While that's his choice, for that to happen while Others are riding around him is unacceptable to me, espeally when he has known about it for Two Months, and he can (or he could pay us to) fix it. (not just an easy move lever fix)
He may not come back to our shop again if I take a Hard line on it, but I rather that than have my mates put at this risk.

Am I being 'over the top', or is it time to give him a Hard Word??
Is the Risk enough to bother You?

Cheers
Racey

Stick to black text. That blue you have used is fucking near impossible to see when on the light universe background.

[RideLife]

Cutting faring is not something I can do without owner permission. But if it was cut, then brake lever still hits dash with same result.
The issue is more, that despite being told of the danger, He has not been willing to sort it out. (May mean a different brake lever system, or Cut faring and re-aline dash or removing it).
At the moment I have twisted clipon's back into a less comfortable ride position. But tho the brake still touches, it now doesn't jam on as before. Will see if owner can ride with the bars pulled in so far.
Thanks for the useful comments.

[slofox]

It's dangerous. Tell him.

[AllanB]

I like the blue text on black.

Presuming the work you were doing had nothing to do with the brake lever, you could cover your arse by completing he work and making a note re brake lever on the job sheet.

I've had this done for WOF's - car tyre is legal but a note saying they expect it will require changing before the next inspection. It passes at 2.5 mm but won't last 12 months.

[mossy1200]

I had that issue.
I installed bolts into the steering head stoppers to give the bike about the same turn angle as a ducati. Problem solved.

[sidecar bob]

I had that issue.
I installed bolts into the steering head stoppers to give the bike about the same turn angle as a ducati. Problem solved.

At least you only crash when manouvering in the pits when you have no lock.

[Billy]

At least you only crash when manouvering in the pits when you have no lock.

Yea,

Its not as easy to adapt to as many would think AND it's not really fixing the problem, Obviously if the machine Alex is talking about has factory or replica bodywork fitted for the correct model, Its not fitted correctly, It all comes down to personal responsibility in the end now there is no acceptable scrutineering taking place, The stories are becoming more prevelant as time passes, Like the Ducati at Greymouth 2013 that the bottom fell out of the home made fibreglass fuel tank on impact causing a huge fire, Or the machine I checked over here last weekend that has now done 7 events all over the North Island without the sump plug wired, Or the Superlite machine thats homemade rear subframe collapsed at Manfeild at round 2 of the Suzuki series, Is it time for ALL Formula based machinery to go through the same process as sidecars ?????

[scrivy]

Is it time for ALL Formula based machinery to go through the same process as sidecars ?????

OMG!!! Could you imagine all the crying and hissy fits....... :yes::shutup:

[rustys]

Yes i agree with Alex this is not good and has to be sorted, also as Billy says, no acceptable bike scrutineering.
At times while i have been doing bike checks some of the things you find and see, make you cringe about being out on the track with these guys, at one particular meeting i was doing, two bikes had no rear brakes working, one a socket was still sitting on a nut, three bikes unwired sump plugs, one bikes exhaust pipe bracket was a piece of thin wire, 2 x filters not clamped, and one bike had the problem exactly what Alex is talking about, scares the shit out of me at times, imagine following a bike and a bloody socket flys off and goes through your visor at a rate of knots.
Time to get tougher.

[Billy]

OMG!!! Could you imagine all the crying and hissy fits....... :yes::shutup:

Haha Yip,

And finger pointing, You forgot to mention blame apportioning.

It was suggested too me by the Officials commissioner that we should be checking the homemade fuel tanks are better constructed when scrutineering following the Greymouth incident WTF? How would we do that, Pull it to bits and reassemble it? It can really only be done during the construction process and with a precise list of materials used and process, Prevention is better than remedy after the fact....isn't it?

[mossy1200]

Yea,

Its not as easy to adapt to as many would think AND it's not really fixing the problem.

It is fixing the problem. I have a 1985 café racer with 45degree steering angles. If I wanted to fit a steering damper and top fairing unit to race it idd need reduce that to around 30degree to allow for both.
We would need more information about said bike to solve the issue.
Modified doesn't always mean not safe.
If a ducati turning angle wasn't safe then maybe they shouldn't be aloud on the track or in the pits or on the road.
There will be a fair number of pre89 bikes with reduced turning angles for steering dampers and its safer to have the steering stock stop the travel than the steering damper max out and break free.

[Billy]

It is fixing the problem. I have a 1985 café racer with 45degree steering angles. If I wanted to fit a steering damper and top fairing unit to race it idd need reduce that to around 30degree to allow for both.
We would need more information about said bike to solve the issue.
Modified doesn't always mean not safe.
If a ducati turning angle wasn't safe then maybe they shouldn't be aloud on the track or in the pits or on the road.
There will be a fair number of pre89 bikes with reduced turning angles for steering dampers and its safer to have the steering stock stop the travel than the steering damper max out and break free.

I think you might have misunderstood the statement,

All of the above is correct and acceptable on a modified machine and I have made these changes to many machines over the years, In some cases where I was running more than 1 machine at a time, So as to keep them the same as possible.

What I was eluding to was if the bike had genuine or race replica bodywork and it still fouled the bars/Levers, Then theres a good chance something else is amiss with bracketry or fitment.

[Drew]

Happens all the time when after market bars go on a bike. I have never thought of it as a safety concern, but it is spelled out clearly that to race nothing must foul at full lock.

I don't think you should be sticking your nose in and whinging to any clubs.

[Drew]

Just make a rule metal fuel tanks only and not home made.

Piss off, why should people who do things properly be penalised because there are retards who shouldn't be allowed to own tools?

[mossy1200]

So the issue is its not up to acceptable race specs as it is but the OP wants advice on what or if any action from him/her should be taken if any.
I have had a race issue (drags) also.
My hand grenade tire caps were stolen and had the rear tire deflate at 300kph. Really should have been picked up firstly by myself and secondly by scrutineers.

My advice is to have a look and see what can be done to solve the issue. Hard for us to tell what would work as we cant see said bike.

If its in the rules then scrutineers should be picking up the fault. Its likely word has got out now about the issue and they will be looking for it. Assuming scrutineers or senior racers read KB.

[Pumba]

Just make a rule metal fuel tanks only and not home made.

So with that rule any bike that comes out of the factory with a composite tank would never be aloowed to race, because you couldnt even make a metal one to replace it:facepalm:

[jasonu]

Just make a rule metal fuel tanks only and not home made.

Why? Because one or two dickheads got it wrong?
How about you find a subject you actually know something about to comment on (like having multiple not at fault accidents on the road for example) so you don't make yourself look even dumber than you already look.

[scrivy]

Piss off, why should people who do things properly be penalised because there are retards who shouldn't be allowed to own tools?

I know that was directed at me ya prick...... :bleh::rolleyes:

[Drew]

I know that was directed at me ya prick...... :bleh::rolleyes:You and Jay actually.

[steveyb]

He was looking in the mirror at the time too. But after a knock on the head he is cross-eyed too....

[Grumph]

Yea,

Its not as easy to adapt to as many would think AND it's not really fixing the problem, Obviously if the machine Alex is talking about has factory or replica bodywork fitted for the correct model, Its not fitted correctly, It all comes down to personal responsibility in the end now there is no acceptable scrutineering taking place, The stories are becoming more prevelant as time passes, Like the Ducati at Greymouth 2013 that the bottom fell out of the home made fibreglass fuel tank on impact causing a huge fire, Or the machine I checked over here last weekend that has now done 7 events all over the North Island without the sump plug wired, Or the Superlite machine thats homemade rear subframe collapsed at Manfeild at round 2 of the Suzuki series, Is it time for ALL Formula based machinery to go through the same process as sidecars ?????

Maybe...but who's going to approve them ? Personally, I did the GP meeting scrutineering for years and acted as a sort of national scrute coordinator for Shand for a couple of seasons - with no formal qualifications whatsoever. Oh, unless you consider FIM tech steward ticket any use - i don't.
the system exists at present for bikes to be "audited" at meetings. i'd like to see it used a lot more.

[sidecar bob]

You and Jay actually.

What's the go with that? It seems the the better a person can ride, the less tools they should be allowed to use.
Scrivy is really only a screwdriver & a spanner & Jay shouldn't venture beyond a dishcloth, but the bastards can fuckin ride though.

[sidecar bob]

Maybe...but who's going to approve them ? Personally, I did the GP meeting scrutineering for years and acted as a sort of national scrute coordinator for Shand for a couple of seasons - with no formal qualifications whatsoever. Oh, unless you consider FIM tech steward ticket any use - i don't.
the system exists at present for bikes to be "audited" at meetings. i'd like to see it used a lot more.

Perhaps MNZ need to grow a ball bag & put up downloadable PDF scrutineering check sheets on their website for the various types of machine that organisers can have access to. I have been going on about this for a while.
The mta wof inspection sheet is probably a good place to start as a guideline, particularly with regard to legal disclaimers etc. I'm sure representatives from each discipline would be more than happy to assist with requirements for their individual machine types.

[jellywrestler]

Scrivy is really only a screwdriver & a spanner not onlyh; I've heard he can remove a lid off a tupperware container six different ways, used to be only four before he had his maggot pierced.

[Deano]

You and Jay actually.

Woohoo I didn't get mentioned !

[scrivy]

not onlyh; I've heard he can remove a lid off a tupperware container six different ways, used to be only four before he had his maggot pierced.

You forgot about my ring piece........... I can suck the fucken lids off with that!! And then eject it 50 yards........ :bleh:

[scrivy]

Perhaps MNZ need to grow a ball bag & put up downloadable PDF scrutineering check sheets on their website for the various types of machine that organisers can have access to. I have been going on about this for a while.
The mta wof inspection sheet is probably a good place to start as a guideline, particularly with regard to legal disclaimers etc. I'm sure representatives from each discipline would be more than happy to assist with requirements for their individual machine types.

That does actually make alot of fucken sense!!

But isn't this argument about trackday bikes?? Who currently needs checks for those??
If I was a fellow rider on these days, I'd damn well expect it to happen, for piece of mind that the leading bike aint gunna drop oil, drop something, or break something in front of me....

[Pumba]

I thought bikes only came out of the factory with metal tanks anyway. Maybe bikes that are made with non metal tanks should just be banned. Would you buy a car with a fibreglass tank?

:wait::confused::scratch::facepalm: I.....I......just......what? Go away and educate yourself please.

[sidecar bob]

So you think people who drive or ride when there is a higher risk of an explosion on impact due to fibreglass or carbon fibre construction are more educated than those who don't.

No, what I think he's trying to say is that motorcycle construction methods & materials have evolved a little in the time since CB750 Hondas were new. You may be quite taken aback at what most motorcycle tanks are constructed of these days.

[caseye]

But if Fibreglass or Carbon Fibre construction can explode on impact where is the evolution?

Really! Man/girl, whatever you are, go and look it up, fiberglass, carbon fibre, aluminium, tin fucking foil, if it works and it passes the tests it can be used.
Merry Christmas, by the way.

[jasonu]

I thought bikes only came out of the factory with metal tanks anyway. Maybe bikes that are made with non metal tanks should just be banned. Would you buy a car with a fibreglass tank?

Just when you thought you had heard it all...:facepalm:

[jellywrestler]

If I was a fellow rider on these days, I'd damn well expect it to happen, for piece of mind that the leading bike aint gunna drop oil,

bikes simply don't drop oil, it's always those fucking sidecars that do that.

[jellywrestler]

But if Fibreglass or Carbon Fibre construction can explode on impact where is the evolution?

i thinks it's the motion lotion inside that explodes.

[p.dath]

Perhaps you could also consider this issue from a professional stand point rather than a purely mechanical one.

Lets say, hypothetically, the workshop next door does some work on a motorcycle. The owner then takes that motorcycle to a track, has an accident and dies. Worksafe conduct an initial investigation and conclude a mechanical defect was a factor, and since the bike was worked on recently call in the Police. The Police interview the mechanic next door, determine that he is a professional (accepts payment for services), knew that the motorcycle had a serious and dangerous defect, and that he gave the former customer a warning about it but did nothing further. The Police aren't sure if there is a case, but conclude there is sufficient linkage to consider an initial charge of negligent manslaughter (a criminal conviction).

Then the Police come to your workshop, seeing that you are in the same trade and also a professional. The Police consider engaging you as an expert in your field, and ask you if an experienced professional in your trade following industry best practices would allow someone to not resolve a serious defect in the braking system of the motorcycle that could lead to serious injury or death. Your answer will determine if the chap next door spends the next two years waiting for trial and a lot of money on lawyers to try and determine the outcome (and a jury may well find that a warning was sufficient - who knows).


I know, an extreme outcome. But whatever you're answer is may help give you some guidance.

[sidecar bob]

Then the Police come to your workshop, seeing that you are in the same trade and also a professional. The Police consider engaging you as an expert in your field, and ask you if an experienced professional in your trade following industry best practices would allow someone to not resolve a serious defect in the braking system of the motorcycle that could lead to serious injury or death. Your answer will determine if the chap next door spends the next two years waiting for trial and a lot of money on lawyers to try and determine the outcome (and a jury may well find that a warning was sufficient - who knows).


I know, an extreme outcome. But whatever you're answer is may help give you some guidance.

In that situation I would certainly excercise my right to be far too stupid to be of any use to the
police case.

[Grumph]

And that scenario is pretty much why no one wants to be a scrutineer...

if the clubs enforced mandatory scrutineering, I'd assume some sort of disclaimer would be necessary. maybe MNZ should show some leadership and work out how it can be done safely. And protecting volunteers at any inquests.

i won't do it except for "auditing" now - and i come from a family where the old man was chief scrute for cars for the SI and we've all been involved at some point....

[p.dath]

...
if the clubs enforced mandatory scrutineering, I'd assume some sort of disclaimer would be necessary....

You can't contract out of the crimes act (for example, having a contract to kill someone does not make the contract legal), so a disclaimer has little value in an extreme case like this.

[scrivy]

You can't contract out of the crimes act (for example, having a contract to kill someone does not make the contract legal), so a disclaimer has little value in an extreme case like this.

So why do we all sign waivers and indemnities then??? :wait:

[scumdog]

Perhaps you could also consider this issue from a professional stand point rather than a purely mechanical one.

Lets say, hypothetically, the workshop next door does some work on a motorcycle. The owner then takes that motorcycle to a track, has an accident and dies. Worksafe conduct an initial investigation and conclude a mechanical defect was a factor, and since the bike was worked on recently call in the Police. The Police interview the mechanic next door, determine that he is a professional (accepts payment for services), knew that the motorcycle had a serious and dangerous defect, and that he gave the former customer a warning about it but did nothing further. The Police aren't sure if there is a case, but conclude there is sufficient linkage to consider an initial charge of negligent manslaughter (a criminal conviction).

.

Drawing a long bow there...

My take is: You expect all garages to repair any potentially lethal defect they notice on any bike they have on their premises - regardless of the owners instructions/orders/finances??:gob:

[scrivy]

Drawing a long bow there...

My take is: You expect all garages to repair any potentially lethal defect they notice on any bike they have on their premises - regardless of the owners instructions/orders/finances??:gob:

Maybe in a perfect world....

But without permission to do so, mongrels just wouldnt pay....

[p.dath]

So why do we all sign waivers and indemnities then??? :wait:

You sign them because the organiser of the event wouldn't let you enter otherwise - which is their prerogative, it's their event.

[Drew]

Perhaps you could also consider this issue from a professional stand point rather than a purely mechanical one.

Lets say, hypothetically, the workshop next door does some work on a motorcycle. The owner then takes that motorcycle to a track, has an accident and dies. Worksafe conduct an initial investigation and conclude a mechanical defect was a factor, and since the bike was worked on recently call in the Police. The Police interview the mechanic next door, determine that he is a professional (accepts payment for services), knew that the motorcycle had a serious and dangerous defect, and that he gave the former customer a warning about it but did nothing further. The Police aren't sure if there is a case, but conclude there is sufficient linkage to consider an initial charge of negligent manslaughter (a criminal conviction).

Then the Police come to your workshop, seeing that you are in the same trade and also a professional. The Police consider engaging you as an expert in your field, and ask you if an experienced professional in your trade following industry best practices would allow someone to not resolve a serious defect in the braking system of the motorcycle that could lead to serious injury or death. Your answer will determine if the chap next door spends the next two years waiting for trial and a lot of money on lawyers to try and determine the outcome (and a jury may well find that a warning was sufficient - who knows).


I know, an extreme outcome. But whatever you're answer is may help give you some guidance.Potentially lethal defective brakes? The fucken lever fouls on the fairing, it aint like the fairing blade is slowly chopping through the lines or summat!

It is a minor fault, with low to minimal risk. The customer has been made aware, twice. If he is not bothered, I see no problem with it. It doesn't adversely effect anyone else on track either, it's a non issue.

People are certainly too precious with their fairings, I would simply take to it with whatever type of saw that worked quickest to resolve the problem. But then, I'm totally function motivated rather than form...unless I'm looking at women folk.

[scott411]

So why do we all sign waivers and indemnities then??? :wait:

it stops the rider or their next of kin suing the orgnasation/poeple running the event,

it means nothing to the police that can lay charges against them,

realistically, in NZ with ACC, the indemnities are not really worth the paper they are written on, as we don't sue each other anyway,

[malcy25]

it aint like the fairing blade is slowly chopping through the lines or summat!



IIRC, is something you have experience with (though was the front tyre doing the chopping!)!!!;)

[Drew]

IIRC, is something you have experience with (though was the front tyre doing the chopping!)!!!;)

Yip, no front gaurd on the Ducati. Won my first race that day on it, then things went down hill fast.

[FROSTY]

I thought bikes only came out of the factory with metal tanks anyway. Maybe bikes that are made with non metal tanks should just be banned. Would you buy a car with a fibreglass tank?
ummmm-actually theres a fair few cars coming out of factories with plastic tanks.

[mossy1200]

Drawing a long bow there...

My take is: You expect all garages to repair any potentially lethal defect they notice on any bike they have on their premises - regardless of the owners instructions/orders/finances??:gob:



Years ago my workmate had his day in court for cutting the plug off a customers 3phase dishwasher because it wasn't safe to operate.
Customers employee refitted the plug and burnt down his café.
Registration Board got involved.

Long drawn out process which revealed it was not legal to alter the customers appliance without permission (cut off the plug).
Go NZ its all about safety unless its not PC to do it.

Maybe the only thing you can do is get legal advice about what you should do.

[mossy1200]

ummmm-actually theres a fair few cars coming out of factories with plastic tanks.

Think it would be the end of motard racing.

[Pumba]

ummmm-actually theres a fair few cars coming out of factories with plastic tanks.

Back away now Frosty. In my experience you can't argue with stupid.


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