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View Full Version : Are New Zealand Police inadvertently causing the road toll to increase?



Jantar
10th January 2015, 15:26
We have all seen the recent police crackdown on speeding, and the stricter enforcement whereby they are likely to stop anyone travelling even 1 kmh over the limit and ticket anyone travelling at more than 4 kmh over the limit. We have also seen the police claim credit anytime there is a reduction in the road toll and blame anyone or anything else when there is an increase in the road toll.

We have all seen the average road speeds fall, and become erratic, with more drivers travelling so far below the speed limit that they hold up other traffic, and then increase their speed at passing lanes so few others can pass. We have also noticed that even experienced drivers are spending more time looking at their speedometers and less time looking at the road or observing road conditions, other traffic and additional road hazards.

In those countries where the speed limit has been increased, or police focus has reduced, there has been a reduction in the road toll, while those countries that have increased speed limits or reduced police focus on speeding have seen increases in road toll, and New Zealand’s experience is consistent with those overseas observations. The places that have seen the greatest reduction in road toll are those that have set the speed limits at the speed that 85% of drivers would stay below “if there was no limit set”. In these situations it has been explained that drivers are less stressed and more able to drive to conditions rather than to an arbitrary speed. Studies in mid-USA where the speed limit was raised showed that the average speed did not increase as much as the increase in the speed limit, showing that drivers were able to set their own speeds where they felt comfortable for the road conditions and for the vehicle they were in.

However, on the TV news a few nights back, Inspector Carey Griffiths stated that, with the stricter speed enforcement, the average road speed in New Zealand had decreased from 103 kmh to 96 kmh. That immediately got me thinking that maybe here is another cause for the increase in road toll with lower speed limits. The following explanation is a tad mathematical, but I’ll try and keep it in laymen’s’ terms with examples.
Imagine that there is a section of road network with intersections, bends, road works, new seal, some hills and rolling country, and passing through farmland, forestry, river gorges and coast line. In other words, typical New Zealand open roads. Irrespective of the number of vehicles in this road network travelling at 103 km, as one car enters the section, another will leave, so the number of vehicles remains constant. Let’s call this number n. If the average speed is reduced from 103 to 96 then the number of vehicles on the network at any given time will increase by 103/96 x n, or an increase of just over 7%.

Now take the situation where there is only 1 vehicle on the network, or n=1.
There is a small chance that this vehicle will crash. It may run off the road, hit a sheep that is on the road, the driver may get stung by a wasp, suffer sun strike, etc. There are many reasons why an accident may occur, but the chance is low. Let’s give this chance a probability Pr(a) (Probability of an accident) where Pr(a) is very small, maybe 0.0001 or 1:10,000 or less. Let’s also give a probability of colliding with another vehicle and call this Pr(c) (Probability of an collision) where Pr(c) is also very small, maybe 0.0001 or 1:10,000 or less. It doesn’t really matter just what values we use for this exercise, just that they are very small.
As there are no other vehicles on this road network, there is no chance of a collision with another, so the chance that this vehicle will have an accident is simply nPr(a) or 1 x 0.0001.

If there are 2 vehicles on this road network, n=2, then there is a chance that either (or both) could have a single vehicle accident. The chances of an accident have increased to 2 x Pr(a), but there is now a chance that they could hit each other or 1 x Pr(c). So now the chances of an accident have not doubled, but have trebled.

Lets add a third vehicle, n=3, and the chance of a single vehicle crash has now increased to 3Pr(a), but the chance of a multi vehicle accident is more complex. Collisions could occur between vehicles A and B, A and C, or B and C, (shown as AB, AC, BC). So the chances of a crash are now 3Pr(a) + 3Pr(c), or 6 times the chance as when only a single vehicle was on the road.

Lets add a fourth vehicle, n=4, and the chance of a single vehicle crash has now increased to 4 Pr(a), but the chance of a multi vehicle accident is increasing even faster. Collisions could occur between vehicles AB, AC, AD, BC, BD, and CD. So the chances of a crash are now 4 Pr(a) + 6 Pr(c), or 10 times the chance as when only a single vehicle was on the road.

Lets add a fifth vehicle, n=5, and the chance of a single vehicle crash has now increased to 5 Pr(a), but the chance of a multi vehicle accident is still increasing even faster. Collisions could occur between vehicles AB, AC, AD, AE, BC, BD, BE, CD, CE and DE. So the chances of a crash are now 5 Pr(a) + 10 Pr(c), or 15 times the chance as when only a single vehicle was on the road.

The chance of a single vehicle accident is increasing linearly with the number of vehicles on the road, but the chance of a collision with another vehicle is increasing at almost exponential rate. There is a Statistical measure for this rate called nCr , where nCr is the number of combinations that can be taken from n, r at a time. So for collisions between 2 vehicles, r would be 2, and the series would increase 0, 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21, 28, 36, 45 etc.
So, if there were 100 vehicles the multiplier would be 4950, and the chance of an crash is now 100 Pr(a) + 4950 Pr(c). Using Inspector Griffiths numbers of an average speed decrease from 103 to 96 then the number of vehicles on that road network would now be 107, and the chances of a crash have increased to 107Pr(a) + 5671Pr(c).

What this means is that decreasing the average speed by 7% has increased the chances of an accident by 14.4%. To keep the road toll down, the police should be trying to decrease the chances of crashes occurring, not increase them.

(The maths are actually a little bit trickier than this and I should be looking at the chance of not having an accident, but for such small values of Pr this gives a reasonable approximation of the true values)

RDJ
10th January 2015, 15:43
Yes they (the senior policy-makers) are. They are therefore guilty of contributory negligence but will escape any sanction and in fact be promoted and given pay rises. Next question?

Ocean1
10th January 2015, 15:58
I always wondered if you could measure chaotic events without altering the outcome.

And if you'd ever know...

FJRider
10th January 2015, 16:35
We have all seen ...

The pertinent words are .. "Likely to stop". Police discretion has NOT been removed from police general policy during roadside stops.
Perhaps three or four times the number of Highway patrol on the roads ... at ANY given time ... with enforcement of zero tolerance. THEN ... we'll see what the annual road toll would be.

One might expect more slow drivers might hold up traffic. if they speed up on passing lanes ... it is not (surely ??) because the are scared of getting a ticket.
And even experienced drivers want to keep their drivers license ... Those demerits do add up. As do the fines ...
And experienced drivers should be looking for all road/traffic hazards ... and know not to BE one ..

This is New Zealand. If you like the traffic rules/policy in other countries ... move there. Thanks to the driving standard and attitude of NZ drivers ... I certainly can't see any policy change in NZ ... anytime soon.

Forget "Layman's terms" ... this is KB. It's either right or wrong. No middle ground. All have opinions ... and all have little chance/ability to change anything.

Simple maths .. the more people that exceed any posted speed limit ... the greater the probability of more people getting a ticket.

Simple fact ... not ALL idiot drivers will crash (but we live in the hope they do) ... but they seem to breed well ... !!

mossy1200
10th January 2015, 17:12
If they were worried about anything other than a return on investment we would have multi lane main hwys with a separation between oncoming lanes.

If they were worried about 1/4 of our children going to school with no lunch or shoes pokies would be outlawed and our unemployed would be supplied the essentials to live properly not our cash to make poor decisions with.

If they were worried about the effect of smoking they wouldn't lift the cost of buying an affordable percentage every 6months they would treble the price overnight. Might help the children no lunch also.


When this form of tax has been accepted by the public they will find another gravy train to jump on as well.

Ocean1
10th January 2015, 17:23
If they were worried about anything other than a return on investment we would have multi lane main hwys with a separation between oncoming lanes.

If they were worried about 1/4 of our children going to school with no lunch or shoes pokies would be outlawed and our unemployed would be supplied the essentials to live properly not our cash to make poor decisions with.

If they were worried about the effect of smoking they wouldn't lift the cost of buying an affordable percentage every 6months they would treble the price overnight. Might help the children no lunch also.


When this form of tax has been accepted by the public they will find another gravy train to jump on as well.

The great thing about freedom of choice is that it extends to fuckwits that take advantage of such freedoms to remove themselves from the gene pool.

RDJ
10th January 2015, 17:41
The great thing about freedom of choice is that it extends to fuckwits that take advantage of such freedoms to remove themselves from the gene pool.

The gene pool is extremely shallow these days. But, covers a vast area... Short version; we're* screwed.

* we = the people who pay wayyyyy more tax than we consume.

haydes55
10th January 2015, 18:07
Another thing to consider: How many people now choose to take back roads to go places, instead of main roads, so they have a lesser chance of meeting a cop? More cars on dodgier roads.....

RDJ
10th January 2015, 18:11
Another thing to consider: How many people now choose to take back roads to go places, instead of main roads, so they have a lesser chance of meeting a cop? More cars on dodgier roads.....

Very good point. Back roads have worse surfaces, sightlines, signposting, and...

Scuba_Steve
10th January 2015, 18:29
Police have an adverse effect on road safety with their speed scam, and an even bigger adverse effect with the wider population as side-effect.
The speed scam is not good for anyone except the corrupt govt making the $$$ and the companies making the scamming tools.

Murray
10th January 2015, 18:34
I think 1 x pr or 1 x (n1) has spent to much time at Waikato University. Run through it all with me when you next back up here.

Cheers

mada
10th January 2015, 19:17
They probably are on a minor scale.

But I think in the major scheme of things significantly lower petrol prices will have more of an impact as more people will be deciding to jump on the roads when in the past they may have given it a miss due to cost. Quite a few of these people are safer off the roads.

This last week there definitely seems to be a lot more volume of traffic on the roads and in particular a lot more really shit drivers. All of said drivers have been going excessively slow and disobeyed most rules in the book - especially indicating for 3 seconds before turning, checking blindspots before changing lanes, just real basic shit. I followed at least 4 shit drivers in the space of an hour on Aucklands shit urban streets today.

Lucky I was in a cage today as I might have got taken by one of these fine drivers, followed this car that was doing 20 km/h and then dropped down to 15km/h in a 50km zone. The guy then turned down a one way street that I needed to go down to get home. This road has room for approximately 3 cars - generally has a car parked either side and then space up the middle, but today was very clear so enough room for two cars side by side. Said fucker took up the whole road and then pulls over to his left without indicating, just in front of a side road. I think about overtaking and fortunately didn't because said fucker then pulls out from left and turns right into the side road, again without indicating and again at 15km/h.

Before that out West near Craig Avon Park I was surprised to see a massive Water Care van boosting it and overtaking a car while passing the rugby grounds (50km/h area) and he must've got up to 70km/h to get past. I soon found out why, the car he passed which I now had to follow would slow down to 20km/h 100m before roundabouts and would fluctuate from 20km to 40km/h. Going across roundabouts they would then indicate the wrong fucking way. :tugger::tugger:

Would be great if Police were to target these drivers because they are likely to cause accidents, not someone doing 55km/h in a 50km/h zone. Would be great if they could boost licence checkpoints too, rather than just booze buses.

BlackSheepLogic
10th January 2015, 19:24
Before that out West near Craig Avon Park I was surprised to see a massive Water Care van boosting it and overtaking a car while passing the rugby grounds (50km/h area) and he must've got up to 70km/h to get past. I soon found out why, the car he passed which I now had to follow would slow down to 20km/h 100m before roundabouts and would fluctuate from 20km to 40km/h. Going across roundabouts they would then indicate the wrong fucking way.

Yep, roundabouts bring the worst out in the road muppets. Just wait till you meet the cool harley rider who splits your lane on the roundabout and then cuts ya off. If I'ld been on my scooter I would have just run over the cool dude...

oneofsix
10th January 2015, 19:34
If there are 2 vehicles on this road network, n=2, then there is a chance that either (or both) could have a single vehicle accident. The chances of an accident have increased to 2 x Pr(a), but there is now a chance that they could hit each other or 1 x Pr(c). So now the chances of an accident have not doubled, but have trebled.



I have to take issue with your maths. I believe you will find that there is statistical evidence that if there are only two cars on the roads in NZ they will collide, I believe this happened on a narrow bridge in fact, when there only two cars in NZ. :banana: BTW, speed was a factor as both cars were moving, all be it at little more than walking pace.

Jantar
10th January 2015, 20:28
I always wondered if you could measure chaotic events without altering the outcome.

And if you'd ever know...
I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. It is not possible to measure such events without altering the outcome. That is why we get so many unexpected negative results from making what should be positive changes.

gjm
10th January 2015, 20:34
Has the police presence on roads increased? If so - good.

More police on the orads means (theoretically) an improved chance of apprehending those who are unable or unwilling to drive in a safe or appropriate fashion. Of course - if the increased police presence is aimed at apprehending more vehicles travelling at a tiny percentage over the speed limit, then the investment is not targeted at safety, but at revenue generation. There will be rooms full of maths wizards and accountancy staff calculating the break-even point to ensure maximum return.

The problem is not speeding per se, but is dangerous driving, including inappropriate use of speed. This has been investigated and proven, time and again, worldwide.

Ocean1
10th January 2015, 21:09
I do believe you have hit the nail on the head. It is not possible to measure such events without altering the outcome. That is why we get so many unexpected negative results from making what should be positive changes.

Bit tongue-in-cheek, there. Probably more to do with risk homeostasis.

Put us all in sponge rubber cars limited to 10kph and your morning commute would look like a demolition derby.

speedpro
11th January 2015, 10:00
I have to take issue with your maths. I believe you will find that there is statistical evidence that if there are only two cars on the roads in NZ they will collide, I believe this happened on a narrow bridge in fact, when there only two cars in NZ. :banana: BTW, speed was a factor as both cars were moving, all be it at little more than walking pace.

Two cars, there was obviously a race going on.

Either that or they spent most of their time on an Auckland motorway travelling at 83.2KmH side by side

FJRider
11th January 2015, 10:13
Has the police presence on roads increased? If so - good.

There still isn't one around .. when you'd like to see one ... <_<

bluninja
11th January 2015, 17:46
This is New Zealand. If you like the traffic rules/policy in other countries ... move there. Thanks to the driving standard and attitude of NZ drivers ... I certainly can't see any policy change in NZ ... anytime soon.



When the going gets tough the tough get going....to another country huh?
The grass is not always greener on the other side.....New Zealand has great grass :lol:

FJRider
11th January 2015, 18:03
When the going gets tough the tough get going....to another country huh?
The grass is not always greener on the other side.....New Zealand has great grass :lol:

I'm glad the grass is great ... I don't smoke myself ... :lol:

Milts
11th January 2015, 18:44
Here's a doctor and public health researcher talking about a few of the conditions in which lowering the speed limit increases the road toll:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wzVaa557I9k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

R650R
11th January 2015, 18:54
Statistics and probability is just brain porn for maths junkies, in reality at a personal level there is often no change.

Eg if I buy more lotto tickets and spend more time in the lotto shop theoretically I should increase my chances of winning.... but it doesn't. Just ask problem gamblers at the local pokie lounge how that maths is all working out for them...

Today I followed an accident waiting to happen over the Napier Taupo road. A very small person, possibly female was riding a large cruiser and was absolutely hopeless at not just corners but slight bends in the road. The riding was so bad I don't think this rider should have left the city limits. Lucky being a biker I could see early something was wrong with the riding style and hung back in the cage giving plenty of room til safe to pass.
But lets say that person made an error and crossed the centre line or fell, all that matters then is the other road users speeds....

Jantar
11th January 2015, 20:38
Statistics and probability is just brain porn for maths junkies, in reality at a personal level there is often no change.

Eg if I buy more lotto tickets and spend more time in the lotto shop theoretically I should increase my chances of winning.... but it doesn't. Just ask problem gamblers at the local pokie lounge how that maths is all working out for them...........
But it does increase your chances of winning. If you buy 1 ticket (a single line) you have approximately 1 chance in 42 of winning a prize and 1 chance in 16,000,000 of winning first prize. Buy 2 tickets and you will almost double your chance. Buy enough tickets (all different of course) and you can guarantee to win division 1. The problem is that it will cost you much more than you will win.

Probability studies do work, otherwise the lotteries commission would go bust and the gamblers would win.

FJRider
11th January 2015, 20:44
Probability studies do work, otherwise the lotteries commission would go bust and the gamblers would win.

You can still reduce the odds of your dieing on the road. ...


But ... STILL die on the road.




Death and taxes are life's only certainty ...

Jantar
11th January 2015, 20:47
.....
Today I followed an accident waiting to happen over the Napier Taupo road. A very small person, possibly female was riding a large cruiser and was absolutely hopeless at not just corners but slight bends in the road. The riding was so bad I don't think this rider should have left the city limits. Lucky being a biker I could see early something was wrong with the riding style and hung back in the cage giving plenty of room til safe to pass.
But lets say that person made an error and crossed the centre line or fell, all that matters then is the other road users speeds....
No, what matters is not speed but following distance. You stated that "I could see early something was wrong with the riding style and hung back in the cage" so even you did the right thing e.g. increased following distance.

Smifffy
11th January 2015, 21:55
If they were in the slightest bit interested in slowing folks down then:

a] They would sit in their patrol cars at the start of a passing lane, not at the end. People would see the car and slow down/ refrain from passing at speed
b] Park the camera vehicles in the open instead of behind bushes, in dips and around corners, for the same reason as above
c] Continuously broadcast on their detectors so that people with detector would slow down

Of course if they did all that then revenues would drop, and quite probably so would average speeds, and possibly so would the road toll.

Still, easier just not to speed eh?

mstriumph
11th January 2015, 22:06
I always wondered if you could measure chaotic events without altering the outcome.

And if you'd ever know...

This has got to do with that bloody cat again, hasn't it .... You and SPman both ... I am sooooo sick of that bloody cat I feel like strangling it anyway if it's still alive when I open the box ...

(that's if there IS a box - if there ever WAS a cat - if ...........) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4

I am a logical person - the only definitive info I get from any of this is that Schrodinger was NOT a cat person. Meow.

mstriumph
11th January 2015, 22:11
"Are New Zealand Police inadvertently causing the road toll to increase? "

the only word I'd query (both there and here) is 'inadvertently'

Jantar
11th January 2015, 22:23
This has got to do with that bloody cat again, hasn't it .... You and SPman both ... I am sooooo sick of that bloody cat I feel like strangling it anyway if it's still alive when I open the box ...

(that's if there IS a box - if there ever WAS a cat - if ...........) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOYyCHGWJq4

I am a logical person - the only definitive info I get from any of this is that Schrodinger was NOT a cat person. Meow.
Only partially. The real question is why Pavlov gave the cat to Schrodinger in the first place. What was the chance that Pavlov's dog would start salivating everytime it saw the cat?

bluninja
12th January 2015, 07:06
Only partially. The real question is why Pavlov gave the cat to Schrodinger in the first place. What was the chance that Pavlov's dog would start salivating everytime it saw the cat?

If Pavlov had got his dogs salivating each time it saw the cat maybe he would have won the no bell prize.

Ocean1
17th January 2015, 21:57
This has got to do with that bloody cat again, hasn't it ....

Related science: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Schr_f6dinger_27s_20Toilet_20Seat