Changing down gears without clutch?

[zmlam]

Hi all,

Just asking for some insight into if I should be concerned..

From the most recent service - the workshop staff told me the clutch cable may need replacing. Noted my clutch lever becoming more firm to grab more recently, so brought it in, got the cable ordered in, and in the interim - they adjusted the tensioners on the clutch. Firstly I started noticing the clutch slipping in high gears under hard acceleration, and it progressively got worse where I could just ride in town in the lower gears and felt the clutch slip. Cable hadn't arrived at the time, so brought it in and got the tensioners adjusted to where I originally had them, but though with some initial improvements, I again noticed slippage in higher gears and so decided I'd wait for cable to be replaced.

The real issue now is on the way back from the last ride - as I was changing down, I thought I accidentally could change down gears without using the clutch. I was able to replicate this several times as I'm pretty sure this was something new. All attempted changes were down a gear with the appropriate speed to keep it smooth, and to my surprise, it changed everytime without engaging the clutch. I also tried changing down to first gear from a standstill in neutral - and it also allowed me to do that - but the bike stalled as expected.

Anyhow - clutch cable got replaced. Slipping of clutch disappeared (phew), lever is now so much nicer to use! However on leaving the garage, I tried changing the gear down to first gear from neutral/standstill - stalled. A few more attempts to test in higher gears/speed - same 'problem'.

I've looked online and the closest I've found is that it could be normal (https://forum.motorcyclenews.com/topic/46887/bike-changing-down-without-clutch-by-accident/24), and I probably only noticed it - perhaps by accident, as I normally have my foot swivelled to the left of the gear foot level when I'm not changing gears. But I'm pretty sure this is something new, especially its odd that I can change down a gear from neutral.

Main concern is going around corners (or even straight lines for that matter), is that I accidentally change down via left foot when I'm not expecting it..

Question - is this normal to be able to changing down gears without the clutch? If not, is it due to clutch cable that needs further adjustment (and can I do this easily myself) - as all these problems started with the clutch cable being adjusted?

Bike in question 2007 Honda Hornet CB900, gone about 19000km.

Thanks!

[Pumba]

Yes you can change down gears without the clutch; my personal advise on the situation is that you shouldn't as it can be very hard on the gear box and lead to premature wear, I am also a believer in the fact people alot smarter than put the clutch there, I paid for it, so why not use the fucking thing.

As far as for changing by accident. If you are genuinely concerned about this I strongly recommend you get some formal sort of training. It is not something I have ever had an issue with or even considered to be a risk.

[Tazz]

40,000+ kms on my gearbox with many many clutchless up and down shifts and no issue with my gearbox whatsoever.

So long as you're doing it in the right rev range...

[James Deuce]

It's your gearbox. Keep pushing on that lever until it stops working.

[Woodman]

I clutchless shift a lot. Always have. Mostly up but down quite regularly too.

Accidental shifting is happening a bit more lately because I ride 2 bikes with the gear lever on different sides, otherwise can't really see why this would occur.

[Mom]

Your gear box is constant mesh so it can easily change gears without the use of a clutch. There have been some great debates on here about the hows and how not to do it, and the damage that you can cause by doing it. I had an old bike that had a poked clutch so I used to change gears without and usually only to stop and start off.

You can preload the gear lever and a simple throttle off and back on again will change the gear smoothly. Changing up is not a problem you just have to be really careful changing down to make sure the revs are matched well so you dont induce a compression lock to the rear wheel.

Changing gears mid corner is a bit of a worry, you might want to lower the gear lever down the spline a little so your foot does not rest on it. As someone else has suggested why not look at getting some one on one training to help you iron any issues with how you ride.

[nzspokes]

Put the balls of your feet on the pegs and this problem will be gone.

[James Deuce]

Put the balls on the pegs and this problem will be gone.

I tried that. Very uncomfortable and you have to quite old for it work properly.

[nzspokes]

I tried that. Very uncomfortable and you have to quite old for it work properly.

Guess I miss the "of your feet" bit.

Yes a peg in the nuts is not desirable.

[Ocean1]

I normally have my foot swivelled to the left of the gear foot level when I'm not changing gears.

Don't do that. Little makes me cringe more than seeing someone cruising down the highway with their toes pointed out. It's against nature. Un-natural. Unconstitutional. Perverted.

Adjust the gear lever down so your foot is 15-20mm above the lever when your instep (sole/arch) is on the peg.

And then get into the habit of keeping the balls of your feet on the pegs whenever you're not using shifter/rear brake.

And use the clutch, outside of a racetrack where there may be several whole milliseconds per lap advantage and bike life expectancy is measured in minutes there's no advantage to shifting without the clutch.

[zmlam]

Awesome - thanks so much all.

Yes I have been aware of the clutchless gear up - but never really tried it and so I've been using clutch all the way.

Will be much more mindful of how I go about my placement of my foot - will try to get into the habit of using the balls of the feet!

[nzspokes]

Yeah dont use your balls. Not fun happy times.

[awayatc]

But seriously........
you went to a shop to have your clutch cable adjusted....?

[Akzle]

I tried that. Very uncomfortable and you have to quite old for it work properly.

rep but jiafp!

[haydes55]

I recently adjusted my gear lever lower. Took one 10mm bolt (or was it 8mm?) took the clip off the gear spline, moved it a couple teeth around, tightened it back up. It's a lot lower now and much better, my up shifts are a lot smoother now that the top of my foots bend is further than how far the lever can travel.

If your clutch was slipping in gear, due to clutch cable, that would mean it had no free play, so was constantly slightly engaged. Wind the bold on the clutch lever in, til the lever has a couple mm free play (towards the bars, not up and down).

[Taxythingy]

If you are worried about the rear wheel locking up on a clutch-less downshift, get a smaller engine on a shitty bike. Problem fixed!

[Madness]

If you are worried about the rear wheel locking up on a clutch-less downshift, get a smaller engine on a shitty bike. Problem fixed!

Or, I dunno, use the clutch?

:facepalm:

[Katman]

You can preload the gear lever and a simple throttle off and back on again will change the gear smoothly.

That is precisely the technique that causes gear dogs to wear.

[zmlam]

But seriously........
you went to a shop to have your clutch cable adjusted....?

It was going to be about a week before I could get the clutch cable replaced, and I didn't want to be bike-less for that long. I tried to adjust it myself but that didn't get much improvement, and I got pretty concerned at the slipping clutch. And since the problem started only after the guys tweaked it, I didn't see why they couldn't put it adjust it back.

[zmlam]

I recently adjusted my gear lever lower. Took one 10mm bolt (or was it 8mm?) took the clip off the gear spline, moved it a couple teeth around, tightened it back up. It's a lot lower now and much better, my up shifts are a lot smoother now that the top of my foots bend is further than how far the lever can travel.

If your clutch was slipping in gear, due to clutch cable, that would mean it had no free play, so was constantly slightly engaged. Wind the bold on the clutch lever in, til the lever has a couple mm free play (towards the bars, not up and down).

Ah - makes more sense now with the importance of the free play. Thanks! I don't think I could get the free play myself when I made those adjustments, noted that when I released the clutch, the cable at times didn't return the full length. All the bolt on the clutch lever did when I tried to adjust it myself was bring the clutch lever closer to the handlebar. But I also didn't try the second smaller bolt on the level itself (aftermarket lever the previous owner had installed), perhaps that was the correct bolt for adjusting free play..

Yup - will look into adjusted the height of the gear level once I assess my habits/new habits. Doesn't look like i have any extra teeth where the gear can be re-positioned, but perhaps I'll see what others do with a similar model.

[BMWST?]

Ah - makes more sense now with the importance of the free play. Thanks! I don't think I could get the free play myself when I made those adjustments, noted that when I released the clutch, the cable at times didn't return the full length. All the bolt on the clutch lever did when I tried to adjust it myself was bring the clutch lever closer to the handlebar. But I also didn't try the second smaller bolt on the level itself (aftermarket lever the previous owner had installed), perhaps that was the correct bolt for adjusting free play..

Yup - will look into adjusted the height of the gear level once I assess my habits/new habits. Doesn't look like i have any extra teeth where the gear can be re-positioned, but perhaps I'll see what others do with a similar model.
some bikes have short linkages that connect the foot gear lever to the actual gear shift lever,depends where the pegs and lever is to the actual gearbox shaft.These linkages should be able to be adjusted to move the foot shift lever...i attach a pic

instead of this
308066

you may have this
308067