I want to corner faster but how? [Archive]

View Full Version : I want to corner faster but how?

kaz

2nd February 2015, 16:57

tigertim20

2nd February 2015, 17:13

rider training days at a trackday.
if youre scared to ride faster than you do, and your mates are giving you shit for it - well its time to get some new friends

ducatilover

2nd February 2015, 17:18

Ride more.

And you probably aren't as relaxed as you think

Ride a bit more. And then some more.
Then get training.

Repeat these steps up to the day you die. Winning.

Mom

2nd February 2015, 17:22

Why not try to make your cornering as smooth as you can? Speed can wait, and will come with experience. Get some training to recognise the vanishing point, that will help.

Mike.Gayner

2nd February 2015, 17:23

Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWLIfChUwg

Mike.Gayner

2nd February 2015, 17:25

So does anyone have any ideas as to HOW I could get faster cornering? I realise this means getting more lean angle but HOW do you determine what it should be without getting it horribly wrong? Exactly HOW do I go faster when, despite understanding the mechanics, I am scared I will mess up and crash?

The only thing I can tell you is what helps me - I know for a fact the bike is capable of more than I'm giving it, given ideal conditions. The same is true ten-fold of your triple. So just twist the throttle a little more, push a little harder on the inside bar and lean. The more you do it the more relaxed you'll feel that the bike isn't going to lose traction or go crazy.

skippa1

2nd February 2015, 17:32

The fear is lack of confidence. Lack of confidence is due to lack of experience. Experience is gained through riding more.
Your bike will lean far further than you imagine, the limiting factor is your experience and confidence.

ride more, ride with others, have a go at one track training day.....you will be amazed

as a side note, fear mess's with riding style, you need to be relaxed to ride smoothly and controlled

skippa1

2nd February 2015, 17:38

^^^^dont listen to anything this fuckin puddin says

kiwi-on-wheels

2nd February 2015, 17:49

Keep riding. I'm fairly new to it, been riding for a month now, i know the bike can go a lot faster, but i'm not ready to yet. More seat time is key imho, the more time you spend doing the things, the easier the things are to do

Katman

2nd February 2015, 17:51

^^^^dont listen to anything this fuckin puddin says

In this instance I think Cassina is pretty much bang on the money.

SVboy

2nd February 2015, 17:58

Haha! Katman's got a new mate! Priceless!

skippa1

2nd February 2015, 18:07

In this instance I think Cassina is pretty much bang on the money.
Dont encourage him

bluninja

2nd February 2015, 18:16

I'd suggest you actually slow down so it's easy peasy and relaxed . Forget the speedo and just focus on being smooth and relaxed and feeling like you have lots of time. After a while you may find you are riding faster through the corners, or not; just ride and learn at a pace that suits you and makes you smile.

I had a while off the bike and then got it out and did 800ks in a day last week. I just took it easy, but by the end of the day I was cornering smoothly and faster than I was when I set off...even with the addition of rain.

Madness

2nd February 2015, 18:22

You're in Wellington, yes?

Go and ride over the Rimutaka Hill. By yourself. At your own pace. Do this at least 4 times in quick succession. Then do it all over again another day. Focus on smooth, fast comes later.

Katman

2nd February 2015, 18:28

Haha! Katman's got a new mate! Priceless!

How old are you?

10?

mossy1200

2nd February 2015, 18:49

We should go riding. Ill make you look like Rossi with my lack of corner speed.
I shout at lycra riders when they pass me within 1.5metres though.

Maybe a bucket racer will take you to the track if they still have membership keys and let you do some laps.

Kickaha

2nd February 2015, 18:49

Dont encourage him

Why not, in this case (rare as that may be)she's right

Murray

2nd February 2015, 18:52

Why not, in this case (rare as that may be)she's right

yep - I also agree with cassina, katman and now kickaha. Pity she didnt stop there and had to start rambling though! Again!

Woodman

2nd February 2015, 18:55

In this instance I think Cassina is pretty much bang on the money.

Agree with you this time.

I wish i could corner faster too. Who doesn't?

skippa1

2nd February 2015, 18:55

Why not, in this case (rare as that may be)she's right
Cause it wont go away.....sheesh, i have to do all the thinking for you turkeys

SVboy

2nd February 2015, 19:05

How old are you?

10?

Laughing at you and your "special" friend has taken the years right off!

Re the op, lessons from a riding instructor and/or a mentor might assist. The issue might be finding a mentor that does not have bad habits themselves, might be a risk..... If Katman or his wee sidekick offer, might pay to politely decline and slowly back away!

Moi

2nd February 2015, 19:35

Other videos you might find useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fe1tEEB55Uw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvsaN3Tc9c

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkAtWiRq8Q0

haydes55

2nd February 2015, 19:42

You sound like you are under pressure to "keep up"? if you were riding on your own would it be a worry I bet not. Having said that though some bikes are safer to corner on than others with cruiser bikes being the worst being so low. There was a story in the AA magazine that said most single motorbike crashes happen by going too fast into corners. If you can corner at the posted speed a lot of bends have on them I would not worry about what others think.

Only thing wrong is.... You suggested to corner at the posted advisory speed. Ignore speed signs. They don't take into account gravel, they never seem to be the same, a 45 can sometimes be taken faster than a 55. They don't tell you there's less grip from tar bleed. Ignore them, learn to watch the road, read the road. Make a judgement on each corner based on experience, skill level, condition and prepare for what can't be seen around the corner. Take a 35k corner at 60 safely one day, then the same corner the next day at 20.

Go to a track day, go to an acc subsidised rider training program and get some practice. If traffic is getting away from you, let them, who cares. If traffic is being held up behind you, pull over when safe to do so and let faster traffic past.

Those advisory speed signs are set 15-25km/h below the speed which the 85th percentile of traffic safely navigates the corner. Trucks can travel at pretty near to those speeds. Yes your bike is capable of higher speeds, but right now, you aren't, travel at a comfortable speed. Ride your own ride.

Stirts

2nd February 2015, 19:48

I have been riding for about 18 months, though my Street Triple is new this week

18 months riding is not a long time and a new bike to get used to also?..me thinks you need to focus on just getting out there and putting in some riding time. Get used to your new baby.

Here's the thing: I've been told that I can easily take corners faster than I do. But I am scared to.

No one else is riding that bike but you. No one else is experiencing what is going on in your helmet but you. Don't let someone else influence how fast you go. It's your life.

nodrog

2nd February 2015, 19:49

do a search on here for "skidmark" or "dangerousbastard" and read all their posts.

caseye

2nd February 2015, 19:52

Only thing wrong is.... You suggested to corner at the posted advisory speed. Ignore speed signs. They don't take into account gravel, they never seem to be the same, a 45 can sometimes be taken faster than a 55. They don't tell you there's less grip from tar bleed. Ignore them, learn to watch the road, read the road. Make a judgement on each corner based on experience, skill level, condition and prepare for what can't be seen around the corner. Take a 35k corner at 60 safely one day, then the same corner the next day at 20.

Go to a track day, go to an acc subsidised rider training program and get some practice. If traffic is getting away from you, let them, who cares. If traffic is being held up behind you, pull over when safe to do so and let faster traffic past.

Those advisory speed signs are set 15-25km/h below the speed which the 85th percentile of traffic safely navigates the corner. Trucks can travel at pretty near to those speeds. Yes your bike is capable of higher speeds, but right now, you aren't, travel at a comfortable speed. Ride your own ride.

Wot he said!
The last part is the key.
Your OWN ride.
Other keys, acc funded pro rider courses.
KB Mentor in your area,
Club track day with provision that you make it absolutely clear you are a complete novice, they will look after you.
Mostly though, if you aren't sure, ask.

Mushu

2nd February 2015, 19:59

Just ride comfortably, if that means going a lot slower than the others then so be it, you're out there to enjoy the ride so if you aren't enjoying it what's the point?

Fear is not something you want to deal with while riding, being scared takes up a lot of your concentration and you won't be learning anything when you are pushing yourself.

Watch the video posted by Mike.Gayner (twist if the wrist 2) and read the book version if you can get your hands on a copy, it explains how bikes work, it is focused on racing but on the track or on the road the technique doesn't change, just the speed. And consider getting professional rider training (I think it's still subsidized by the government, so quite affordable)

If you are enjoying the ride and smoothly clearing corners you start to gain confidence and refine your riding technique which will make you faster without even realizing it. Ignore the speedo there is no need to use it for any reason other than to check if you are breaking the speed limit.

AllanB

2nd February 2015, 20:13

Hmmmmm good question really.

Ride more Ride more ride.....

I'd also suggest you ride the same route for a while - say pick a favourite weekend destination with a good place to stop for a coffee or similar. If you ride that route frequently you'll become familiar with the corners and find you are naturally increasing your speed. Yeah you'll get cocky a few times and shit ya self but that is normal.

Oh and these riding 'mates' how about one of them knocks the pace back a bit so you can follow them. Might learn something.

Corners - remember if you are getting your confidence - get your braking and gear changing done before the corner - better slow in and you can power out half way around. Enter above you comfort level and it will probably turn to custard.

Moi

2nd February 2015, 20:15

Before you try reading Twist of the Wrist, have a look at this publication from Norway: Full Control (http://nmcu.org/files/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)

You can download the booklet as a pdf and it is a good beginners' guide to riding.

biketimus_prime

2nd February 2015, 20:45

Get this book somehow: http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072

Read it, read it, read it. Truly learn what he is trying to say then practice it every weekend. I was just like you. 60k corner I will do 55-60. Over the course of a few months of riding every weekend or second weekend on a sunday, I can hit 60k corners at 95 no sweat when I am truly in a state of Motorcycle Zen (1 hr or more into a ride usually) and the roads are good. Any faster is just ridiculous for me as it is on the road and I like to have some in reserve in case of emergency.

Commuting doesn't help at all to be honest and makes me more scared when weekend ride time comes around. The only way you can really improve is to actually ride the kind of roads you fear.

I need to get that book out again from the library to refresh some stuff. It is so useful.

bogan

2nd February 2015, 21:25

Mushu

2nd February 2015, 21:31

Grashopper

2nd February 2015, 21:36

Hallo. My name is Grashopper and I'm sloooooow.

I feel a lot like kaz. I'm never really sure about the road surface, how sticky my tires really are and if there is not a cow on the road behind the next blind corner. Pretty much everybody I ride with is a hell of a lot faster than me in corners and I always wonder how they can do that. Especially in those 25 - 45 blind corners.

I've done quite a few trackdays and rider training days and they definitely helped. There is one on the Manfield (?) track this weekend if you're interested, kaz: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/172720-Victoria-Motorcycle-Training-Day And +1 on watching the Twist of the Wrist video and reading the book.

You mentioned that you're scared, so I don't think you are as relaxed as you think, either.

However, a track is much safer than the road. No blind corners, the track surface is generally clean and even. and the chance of a campervan heading towards you on the wrong side of the road is reasonably slim. Because I was dead slow to begin with, I can say I've actually become at least a tiny bit faster on the track (until I come to that mean little lefthander at HD, though, which I conquer at about walking speed...:eek5:), but on a twisty road I still hold up everything but tourists in underpowered campervans looking for the next photostop.

haydes55

2nd February 2015, 21:45

Your comments seem to contradict themselves by saying cornering at the recommended speed you will risk crashing in gravel//tar bleed but 85% of drivers can corner safely above them. So either 85% of bends have no gravel/tar bleed or 85% of motorists can handle it?. In my opinion the fact you have said 85% travel over the recommended speed leaves poster 1 with the impression they must aim for having that ability down the track but if you read my earlier post from the AA magazine it does say most single bike crashes result from cornering too fast.

Fail.....
Fail.....
Fail.......
85th percentile.... Not 85%..... Same same but different. So in cassina words, if 100 people go around a corner, at a comfortable speed, on a dry day, rank their speeds from slowest to fastest. Person number 1 is going 50km/h and person number 100 went around the corner at 140km/h. The majority of road users are just safely cruising from A to B, a few are out there going quite quick, and quite a few are unskilled, driving slow vehicles or uncomfortable on the open road. It has been concluded by magical statisticians that person number 85 is traveling at the safest speed, with the least chance of crashing. So person number 85 travelled around the corner at 90km/h, take away the 25km/h and the advisory sign should say 65.

A 65 corner would have 85% of vehicles travelling below 90km/h (in this made up scenario anyway).

For the record, in good conditions there's an old saying, double plus ten... But that's getting to the very edge of the tires. Like I said earlier, the best thing you can do is ignore them for the most part. An advisory sign will give a very vague idea how sharp a corner is. But never rely on them, never gauge your speed based solely on them. Learn to read the road

Mushu

2nd February 2015, 22:11

Did you not know road conditions can change from day to day for a multitude of reasons. Predicting that the road conditions will be the same from day to day is just playing Russian roulette in my opinion. You are the idiot sport!!
Okay Nana, maybe I should just stay home then, that's safe isn't it?

For the record, not every 35kmh corner is blind, and since I have been known to do several laps of different roads in a day (mostly around the Port Hills) I might go through the same corner several times in a day and only about 20 minutes apart, 30 if I stop for a smoke.

For the record, in good conditions there's an old saying, double plus ten... But that's getting to the very edge of the tires. Like I said earlier, the best thing you can do is ignore them for the most part. An advisory sign will give a very vague idea how sharp a corner is. But never rely on them, never gauge your speed based solely on them. Learn to read the road

That's what I was always told too. Although I can think of many places where even in perfect conditions that would end badly, so I agree, best to make your own judgements based on whatever information you have

caseye

2nd February 2015, 22:15

Did you not know road conditions can change from day to day for a multitude of reasons. Predicting that the road conditions will be the same from day to day is just playing Russian roulette in my opinion. You are the idiot sport!!

Seems you are the only one here who didn't know that.
By the way I'd put good money on most of the people in this thread that you have told off, haven't come off their bikes as often as you.
Unlike some they actually ride their bikes they don't throw them away every time a corner gets too hard!
To the OP.
This person is a danger to themselves and others and any advice from them should be taken with a large dose of, anything but believe it!
Many have offered their advice, most of it is genuine and that which is will stand you in good stead, practice, ride with people who are interested in you enjoying your ride not worried about how fast you are going, get some time in with professional trainers, my wife recently did the pro rider bronze all day course and came home much happier than the last time she went out, she learnt how to ride through/around corners in both directions and without mucking up, something about counter steering, thanks Howie!
Track days give you unopposed roadways to ride around and let you experiment with your cornering techniques and trying out what your instructors tell you to do, great for seeing what can be done under controlled conditions.

Arctic Wolfe

2nd February 2015, 22:32

Ever heard of SLLR . . . . ..
It's a cornering technique acrynom . . . It's the basics and not the Alfa and Omega of cornering . .

Get the basics right and by practice the rest will follow

What i have not seen in these comments is the fact that a car will corner faster than a bike . . .

Gremlin

2nd February 2015, 22:37

OP, if you want to work on your cornering, do it in a safe and isolated environment, ie, get yourself to a rider training day.

However, my personal belief is ignore the speed. As your skills improve through getting out and riding, the speed will come naturally.

However cliche it is, just remember the road is not a racetrack, so always leave plenty in reserve.

Tazz

2nd February 2015, 23:37

Go talk to 2-3 instructors, pick one you get along with and learn face to face.
You've been on a bike long enough to learn yourself, it hasn't happened, get a pro to help and be careful what advice you listen to on the interwebz...

What i have not seen in these comments is the fact that a car will corner faster than a bike . . .

So you're answer is to buy a car? Think you're preaching to the wrong crowd here mate...

James Deuce

3rd February 2015, 07:37

Your comments seem to contradict themselves by saying cornering at the recommended speed you will risk crashing in gravel//tar bleed but 85% of drivers can corner safely above them. So either 85% of bends have no gravel/tar bleed or 85% of motorists can handle it?. In my opinion the fact you have said 85% travel over the recommended speed leaves poster 1 with the impression they must aim for having that ability down the track but if you read my earlier post from the AA magazine it does say most single bike crashes result from cornering too fast.

AA Magazine. AA Magazine. The single most anti-motorcycle organisation in the country. I don't think you should probably ride motorcycles. BTW, the AA present their research the same way the Government does: Selectively and with bias.

Heaven forbid that anyone should actually enjoy driving or riding. Why, I think I might take up staying at home for a hobby.

You're allowed to interpret haydes comments however you want. However you should probably have a second look at the output before you push the "post" button. You are almost as reactionary as Tony Abbott and your obvious loathing for your fellow humans is tainting your outlook. Some people are better at stuff than you. Some are worse. You need to make an accommodation with that because there is no way to make everyone conform to your extremely narrow views on what makes an acceptable life.

Katman

3rd February 2015, 08:03

AA Magazine. AA Magazine. The single most anti-motorcycle organisation in the country. I don't think you should probably ride motorcycles. BTW, the AA present their research the same way the Government does: Selectively and with bias.

Trouble is Jim, even many of us motorcyclists realise that losing control on a corner (due to incorrect speed for the conditions/ability) is one of the biggest causes of motorcycle crashes.

If we're honest with ourselves the AA aren't telling us anything we don't already know.

Ulsterkiwi

3rd February 2015, 08:56

If we're honest with ourselves the AA aren't telling us anything we don't already know.

I tried to green rep this statement. Yes stats can be brought in a way to fit the story being told but honesty about our own abilities is the key.

To the OP there is some really good advice here. From a scan read you are being advised to get as much experience as possible and to learn at your own pace. How so much wisdom came from the likes of KB members I will never know! :laugh:

george formby

3rd February 2015, 09:20

For the sake of repeating the good info this thread, don't focus on speed. Trying to corner quicker to keep up with other riders is very risky, you can out ride your ability and it's not fun. At all.

Practice your basics, road position, visibility, vanishing point, anticipation etc. Same with your handling skills, brakes, throttle, gears, body position. The better you can ride, technically, the smoother and ultimately quicker you will go. How fast you can stop is far more important than how fast you can go.
Training & practice. Repeat.

Kiwi Graham

3rd February 2015, 09:37

OP rider training in a controled enviroment is the way forward to understanding what you are doing in relation to your riding/machine control and how to practise change/improvement under the watchful eyes of experienced instructors providing both practical and theory instruction.

The Auckland Motorcycle Club has a training day on the 15th of February at Hampton Downs http://www.amcc.org.nz/index.php/menu-ridertraining/entry-forms/143-art-entry-form-15-february-2015.html
If you can get yourself up here you will leave with a lot more knowledge and confidence.

I know Brian Bernard rider training is a little nearer to you http://www.bernardracing.co.nz/rider-training.html

Either way Kas get some instruction to improve your riding and dont put pressure on youself to ride faster, speed comes with smoothness and an understanding of what to do to achive this.

ellipsis

3rd February 2015, 09:52

. I don't really want to regurgitate the debate I had with you and your mates a few weeks back

...really?...you are funny in a very unhumorous way...twat...

Arctic Wolfe

3rd February 2015, 09:55

Go talk to 2-3 instructors, pick one you get along with and learn face to face.
You've been on a bike long enough to learn yourself, it hasn't happened, get a pro to help and be careful what advice you listen to on the interwebz...

So you're answer is to buy a car? Think you're preaching to the wrong crowd here mate...
Actually no . . . Taken from the comment that he finds he corners ower than cars . . . . .
Depending on the driver and the car, cars should in general be faster through a corner than a bike

SLLR -pronounced SLUR
S - Slow down
L - Look through the corner to the apex and beyond
L - Lean . . . yes lean the bike over move your weight etc etc . .
R - ROLE . . . . roll on the throttle . . . .at the right time

Banditbandit

3rd February 2015, 10:16

I have been riding for about 18 months, though my Street Triple is new this week (before that I had tried a big scooter, and then an Aprilia Shiver which I actually found a bit too big in frame size). I absolutely love my Street Triple - lighter and smaller and integrated with me.

Here's the thing: I've been told that I can easily take corners faster than I do. But I am scared to. I understand some of the cornering theory and I have good lines, I look through the corner, I stay relaxed.... But I'm pretty slow - as in slower than a car would be (e.g. if a corner has a recommended speed of 65, you might do 70 in a car, and I might do 60 on the bike).

So does anyone have any ideas as to HOW I could get faster cornering? I realise this means getting more lean angle but HOW do you determine what it should be without getting it horribly wrong? Exactly HOW do I go faster when, despite understanding the mechanics, I am scared I will mess up and crash?

I've tried following my husband on his bike and I believe I am a bit faster then - like he's "pulling me through" the corner. Are there other ways I could get better?

Thanks in advance for your ideas!

Wot most of them said - practice ...

Tyres make a huge difference - not to road speed but to confidence. Have a go with different tyres .. none of them are "bad" but some are better than others .... and tyres suit bike/riding style. I run Continental Road Attacks on my 650 and they are awesome and give me a huge amount of confidence. But they may not suit your bike and your riding style. I suggest going with a soft compound Bridgestone or Continental and see what suits you. With more experience you can start to get selective about what tyres you want to use.

I also found that sitting a little further back on the seat made faster cornering easier. It only took about half an inch to an inch, but that changes your body position and the bike/rider centre of gravity, making it just a little lower.

Countersteering is great - but also drop your shoulder into the corner ... do this by bending your elbow a little, that will naturally drop your shoulder.

Also, make sure you are in the best gear (often lower than you might think) and don't be afraid to open the throttle in the corner ... the extra engine speed will hold the bike up .. but don't open it enough to pull the bike upright in the corner . Bikes corner differently, so don;t necessarily try to stay with your husband in the corner. Some bikes I have had corner better holding a steady speed, some bikes I have owned are better in the corner with the power on, and some I have owned I only powered on coming out of the corner to lift the bike up ... Find out what works best for you and your bike. My current bikes go best running into the corner with the power on, then adding more power as I come out of the corner .. (that's a bugger unless you shut down before the next corner - if you don't then within two or three corners me and the bike are running fast enough to be walking if the popo see it ...)

Apart from that - just practice ...

HenryDorsetCase

3rd February 2015, 11:02

What i have not seen in these comments is the fact that a car will corner faster than a bike . . .

this is way way off topic for this thread.

OP: do as others have suggested. I endorse the "get some training and get some track time" approach. Also: good gear. And chill. have some fun. Nobody rides a motorbike because they have to. We do it because we WANT to because we LIKE it.

If you arent having a good time, no sweat, find something you do enjoy. An example... for a long time I was a very keen mountain bike rider. My partner and I used to go out a bit but she finally cracked and said "this is not for me, I dont like it". She now does other things and we are both happy. So dont feel bad if it isnt for you because life is too fucking short to do stuff you dont want to do.

Now, getting back to the car thing, yes, a 99% car driven at its maximum will have peak corner speeds higher than motorbikes. Look at some MotoGP vs F1 telemetry. F1 cars also brake harder, later: why? obviously a function of amount of rubber on the road and C 0f G. It is hardly relevant to anyone, even F1 and MotoGP.

Who cares though? bikes are bikes and cars are cars. And my Subaru is no F1 car.

Even further off topic, one of the better things that was on Top Gear was Richard Hammond trying to drive an F1 car: basically demonstrating how good the drivers are, and how hard they are to drive.....

haydes55

3rd February 2015, 11:05

I also found that sitting a little further back on the seat made faster cornering easier. It only took about half an inch to an inch, but that changes your body position and the bike/rider centre of gravity, making it just a little lower.

According to Simon Crafars book Motovudu, you want to sit further forwards. That's a book specifically about sports bikes with an emphasis on race tracks.

Another thing for OP to consider is suspension. If the suspension is set up for you, the bike will handle like a dream. If not, I could be difficult to steer and actually dangerous to go fast. Look up youtube vids for setting up sag and fine tune rebound dampening etc. Best thing I ever did to my bike was play with my suspension.

ellipsis

3rd February 2015, 11:12

You love regurgitating the twat comment eh twat!!!

...that's fucking obvious isn't it you imbecilic twat...do you finger yourself while you are beating up us dangerous, go a little faster than you can blokes who just love to wind wankers up...if you are a special needs person maybe you should get permission from your caregiver before playing with the keyboard or at least let them guide you...maybe they don't like motorcyclists either and can give you some better stories than you come up with...fucking twat...

Banditbandit

3rd February 2015, 11:44

According to Simon Crafars book Motovudu, you want to sit further forwards. That's a book specifically about sports bikes with an emphasis on race tracks.

That may be so on a sports bike (I don't own one) .. I just know I certainly corner faster sitting a little further back ... it means I am not sitting us upright as I was - not by much but enough to make a difference ..

Another thing for OP to consider is suspension. If the suspension is set up for you, the bike will handle like a dream. If not, I could be difficult to steer and actually dangerous to go fast. Look up youtube vids for setting up sag and fine tune rebound dampening etc. Best thing I ever did to my bike was play with my suspension.

Yeah .. tightening up the suspension on my 650 certainly improved the handling and the speed in corners ..

Blackbird

3rd February 2015, 13:23

It's hard to know what good or bad traits you've picked up during the experience you've had so far but have you thought about about a 1 day course with a professional instructor on a 1:1 basis? There may be others but I know that these trainers in the Wellington area are Roadcraft-trained and have good reputations:

http://twobaldbikers.co.nz/ and http://www.roadsafe.co.nz/about-roadsafe . Both Andrew and his wife Lynne are instructors. They would be able to help in a real-world road situations.

BTW, congrats on your choice of bike :Punk: . Have just clicked over 60,000 km on mine.

TheDemonLord

3rd February 2015, 13:34

FWIW

I found that the Twist of the Wrist DVD (well Youtube video) really helped my cornering, particularly rolling on the throttle through the corner and body positioning through the corner.

That and as everyone else said - Practice, experience etc.

Hugo Nougo

3rd February 2015, 14:04

I think kaz has given up on this thread, if she's smart ( and I think she is) she has already sifted out the useful and left the rest of you dribblers to talk amongst yourselves.

Stirts

3rd February 2015, 14:13

I agree.

She looked in and got hit by the wave of utter BS that some have posted. And her head fell off.

<img src="http://www.barnorama.com/wp-content/images/2012/03/exploding_actresses/09-exploding_actresses.gif"></img>

Paul in NZ

3rd February 2015, 14:19

I have been riding for about 18 months, though my Street Triple is new this week (before that I had tried a big scooter, and then an Aprilia Shiver which I actually found a bit too big in frame size). I absolutely love my Street Triple - lighter and smaller and integrated with me.

Here's the thing: I've been told that I can easily take corners faster than I do. But I am scared to. I understand some of the cornering theory and I have good lines, I look through the corner, I stay relaxed.... But I'm pretty slow - as in slower than a car would be (e.g. if a corner has a recommended speed of 65, you might do 70 in a car, and I might do 60 on the bike).

So does anyone have any ideas as to HOW I could get faster cornering? I realise this means getting more lean angle but HOW do you determine what it should be without getting it horribly wrong? Exactly HOW do I go faster when, despite understanding the mechanics, I am scared I will mess up and crash?

I've tried following my husband on his bike and I believe I am a bit faster then - like he's "pulling me through" the corner. Are there other ways I could get better?

Thanks in advance for your ideas!

Oh wow - did this wake up the natives...

OK - I'll jump in if it helps... First off, do you need to go around corners faster? I mean are you being left behind or monstered from behind by old ladies in Morris Minors?? If not then don't stress, you are doing fine. There will always be someone who can ride faster than you and actually - its not compulsory that you try to keep up.

Trying to constantly outride your ability is a recipe for disaster...

If you have come to riding later in life you will need to face the unpleasant truth that you are very unlikely to develop the natural affinity someone who started at 12 will have. They made all their errors when their bones were made of rubber and their brains were 99% adrenalin. But you can learn to ride safely and still have fun.

To ride faster in the corners you need to learn to ride smoothly. Just concentrate on riding the bike smoothly, tipping it in and holding it with the throttle and accelerating out gently - you will get faster and feel better.

Last thing - make sure your suspension has been adjusted by a competent person for you size and weight...

ABOVE ALL have FUN... If its not fun why on earth are you doing it...

haydes55

3rd February 2015, 16:41

I agree with you it has got off topic as far as her initial question was especially when one poster started rambling about statistics and other who said it was safe on occasion for him to take 60k bends at 95ks when the question had nothing to do with how fast do others take bends. If anything as a few others have said as well as me I hope poster 1 has lost any feeling of pressure to "Keep Up" with the others they ride with.

:facepalm:

Bare with this post, I found some insults online and I'm finding some funny ones.

You are:

A few slices short of a loaf

A few cans short of a six pack

A few flowers short of a bouquet

A room temperature IQ (in Celsius)

A walking argument for pro choice

A few light bulbs short of seeing

As useful as a sidestand on a horse

Born at low tide in the gene pool

Full throttle with a dry tank

A goalie for the darts team.

Some more gems:

Your clutch is slipping

During evolution, your ancestors were the control group

Barrier arms are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming

Your head whistles in a cross wind

Maha

3rd February 2015, 17:00

kaz, I will hazard a guess that you are looking to corner earlier than you should, to make to corner 'flow'. By that I mean, your position on the road before entering a corner is such, that you throttle off to enable a 'safe' entry/exit? You probably have said to yourself ''I could have gone through there quicker''? and you could have, quicker (in this instance) translates to position on the road/gear selection.

Tracks have no centre line, no oncoming traffic, no fence's, not road kill etc. So if you ever make it to a track day, treat as a bit of fun, as most do.

Pound

3rd February 2015, 17:02

My observations are that nothing seems to create more controversy in the riding community than the debate on correct rider technique, road safety skills, and speed than what is being discussed here.

skippa1

3rd February 2015, 18:14

And your pissing in the wind!!
You're

:rolleyes:

Kickaha

3rd February 2015, 18:33

So you think the faster you can go around bends the "better" you are?
Can you point out where he actually said that?

...that's fucking obvious isn't it you imbecilic twat...do you finger yourself while you are beating up us dangerous, go a little faster than you can blokes who just love to wind wankers up...if you are a special needs person maybe you should get permission from your caregiver before playing with the keyboard or at least let them guide you...maybe they don't like motorcyclists either and can give you some better stories than you come up with...fucking twat...
Fuck you're an angry cunt, is that just because you're a ginga?

I think kaz has given up on this thread, if she's smart ( and I think she is) she has already sifted out the useful and left the rest of you dribblers to talk amongst yourselves.
If she's smart she'll give up on the site not just the thread

kaz

3rd February 2015, 18:40

Taxythingy

3rd February 2015, 19:11

Now, getting back to the car thing, yes, a 99% car driven at its maximum will have peak corner speeds higher than motorbikes. Look at some MotoGP vs F1 telemetry. F1 cars also brake harder, later: why? obviously a function of amount of rubber on the road and C 0f G.

True, but when talking about race cars, most of the higher corner speed is possible due to the downforce from the aerodynamic components. An F1 car at 120km/hr has about a full car's weight of downforce; 2x at around 190km/hr. That means about twice as much traction at 120 to stop you flying off the corner, three times as much at 190 & so on. Motorbikes don't really have any significant downforce. Bum.

The big advantage for a 'normal' car of having 4 wheels and wide tyres is that a loss of grip on any small patch has a much lower overall impact to the available grip than for a bike.

ellipsis

3rd February 2015, 19:15

...cars. car stuff, car stuff......

...and fifty squillion hp...

HenryDorsetCase

3rd February 2015, 19:38

Hi all

Thank you so much for your responses - (mainly!) a lot of collective KB wisdom. I've had some nice encouragement and good tips from you.

I've now watched Twist of the Wrist II (thanks for the link - it was really helpful) and also gotten hold of that Code book, which looks interesting. Plus found some possibilities for buddies and mentors.

Perhaps most importantly, I have understood that I do not need to put pressure on myself or let anyone else pressure me. Just as some of you have pointed out - I have gotten confused between being "as good as" and "being as fast as".

I think I'll do some planned practice and otherwise just enjoy myself. After all, I've got an awesome Street Triple!

good on you. You could learn the way we all did in the 80's: by having full on balls to the wall road races from Wellington to Masterton then back via Palmerston North. wearing jeans and shitty jackets and giving no fucks. Knew a few who died that way.

In terms of cornering you want to wait

wait

wait

see god (or deity of choice: I pray to Kevin Schwantz personally) then

all the brakes all at once, chuck er in, you want at least your knee on the ground if not your elbow and shoulder (you want AT LEAST one shoulder save per ride otherwise you arent doing it properly) you then need to turn the go button all the way and reve the tits off the old girl - its oly going properly when the needle is on the "M" in RPM.

rinse

then repeat.

You'll get the hang of it. :)

biketimus_prime

4th February 2015, 20:04

I enjoyed this book

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

Main thing is technique, don't give a shit about speed itself. Just get the proper technique down and stay safe; learn to read the road and the traffic, learn what your bike is capable of in more controlled circumstances (car park or track). Smooth and safe is far more enjoyable than fast and loose anyway imo.

Thanks for that! I have ordered it from the library now. It appears there is a newer version of that book you linked, a 2015 version.

Agree with smooth and safe. I used to be very aggressive and be on the throttle then hard on the brakes before corners. After reading the book by Nick Ienatsch I work more with the throttle now rather than the brake. In the hills the brake is for minor corrections rather than large speed changes.

Winston001

4th February 2015, 20:43

Thank you so much for your responses - (mainly!) a lot of collective KB wisdom. I've had some nice encouragement and good tips from you.

I've now watched Twist of the Wrist II (thanks for the link - it was really helpful) and also gotten hold of that Code book, which looks interesting. Plus found some possibilities for buddies and mentors.

Perhaps most importantly, I have understood that I do not need to put pressure on myself or let anyone else pressure me. Just as some of you have pointed out - I have gotten confused between being "as good as" and "being as fast as".
!

Great. You are riding a motorcycle on the open road. That is a rare privilege 95% of people will never know. Embrace it, love it, enjoy it. Cornering comes slowly and even on a Ducati it was scary for a few years.

You are probably unaware but there are experienced bikers who choose to ride small/tiny bikes to rallys just for the fun and sheer endurance of it. Cars can pass them on corners but those cages won't stop when the bikers fall about with laughter under the stars.

OP: do as others have suggested. I endorse the "get some training and get some track time" approach. Also: good gear. And chill. have some fun. Nobody rides a motorbike because they have to. We do it because we WANT to because we LIKE it.

If you arent having a good time, no sweat, find something you do enjoy.... for a long time I was a very keen mountain bike rider. My partner and I used to go out a bit but she finally cracked and said "this is not for me, I dont like it". She now does other things and we are both happy.

Now, getting back to the car thing, yes, a 99% car driven at its maximum will have peak corner speeds higher than motorbikes.

Who cares though? bikes are bikes and cars are cars. And my Subaru is no F1 car.

Well said. :2thumbsup:

Arctic Wolfe

5th February 2015, 14:26

then . . . .all the brakes all at once,

Really??? . . . .all the brakes at once?

errrr actualy NO ! . . . .

Control and as smooth as possible is the key . .

HenryDorsetCase

5th February 2015, 14:35

Really??? . . . .all the brakes at once?

errrr actualy NO ! . . . .

Control and as smooth as possible is the key . .

pish posh. remember you get supplementary braking because you are sliding the front wheel with your knee and elbow on the ground. If in doubt GAS 'ER UP!

Autech

5th February 2015, 17:05

Lots and lots of riding is key. Never try and force yourself to go faster, it will end badly. I always approach a ride based on my rhythm, if I'm feeling good on the bike I will take a corner a tad faster, if I'm not then I sit back and enjoy it. Occasionally if my Rhythm is too bad (perhaps I'd had a late one) I would turn around and go home.

It all depends on what your natural rhythm is like and the only way to improve it is with some training and above all experience. I did over 40'000ks on my 250 before stepping on to a 600, it let me get away with a fair few silly mistakes that I bigger bike may not have.

caseye

5th February 2015, 17:59

Arctic Wolfe

5th February 2015, 18:12

pish posh. remember you get supplementary braking because you are sliding the front wheel with your knee and elbow on the ground. If in doubt GAS 'ER UP!

:psst: ........ I wanna corner behind you ............ because in front of you l'll miss this spectacle .....

Arctic Wolfe

5th February 2015, 18:15

Now there is some good advice, particularly about being ready to step up, different folks different strokes.

Yes !!! ..... nothing beats riding experience over and over and over ............

From a track school instructor comes the word " I got to be as smooth and fast as I am only because of riding often ..... 100's and 100's of laps on the track has built the confidence I need"

Ride !!!!

ellipsis

5th February 2015, 18:15

:psst: ........ I wanna corner behind you ............ because in front of you l'll miss this spectacle .....

...how much coffee can you drink?...

Arctic Wolfe

5th February 2015, 18:27

...how much coffee can you drink?...

You're in Canterbury ....... and who's buying. I drink other stuff as well .......

ellipsis

5th February 2015, 18:30

You're in Canterbury ....... and who's buying. I drink other stuff as well .......

...it's a fucking long way for a cup of tea...try Crashers coffee, it's closer...l

caseye

5th February 2015, 20:06

No! Such gay abandon, he carelessly throws another poor young Kb'er to the crashers coffee.

HenryDorsetCase

5th February 2015, 21:25

No! Such gay abandon, he carelessly throws another poor young Kb'er to the crashers coffee.

Yeah thats a way worse offence than trying to convince a newb to push the front and do elbow and knee saves..... at least there isnt a UNHCR mandate about that stuff whereas that coffee has been classified as against the Geneva convention and its use is, well, a war crime.

Here is a picture of me demonstrating how easy it is:

unstuck

6th February 2015, 13:11

Here is a picture of me demonstrating how easy it is:

FreddieDorsetCase, just not the same ring to it.:no:

carver

7th February 2015, 08:51

Don't bother, your a woman and don't belong on a bike anyway.

thehovel

7th February 2015, 20:07

samgab

7th February 2015, 20:54

In the few years that I ran(assisted) NASS I found that blokes would ride at 9/10ths and get into trouble. The gals would ride at 5/10ths and build up as they got more experience. Don't rush it, it can take a year to learn a new bike. You have gone from a big scoot to a big sports bike and you only have 18mths riding experience, I'm impressed!!! That's one hell of a jump.
If you do track days get a small bike (250) that you can thrash, put crash bars on it and have fun. Be prepared to drop it, you only find your limit is to push hard. I wouldn't advise using this years model on the track. Track bikes don't need rego so that's a saving.
Regards Richard
PS don't rush it You want to be riding in 20 years time a bad crash could put you off riding for ever.

Wow, you've re-emerged, Richard! Thanks for your help back then with NASS guidance, I learnt a good deal from those meetups, and I think I'm a safer rider because of them. When I get a 600 I'll start going again. Where are you these days? Were you among the Ulysses Club members who met Henry Cole at the Cook Strait ferry in Picton a while back who was doing a documentary on Riding NZ on a motorcycle (A Harley unfortunately, of all the bikes he could have chosen)? I thought I saw you in the background in some of the shots.

PS, Kaz, I'm really jealous of you with your new Street Triple. Fantastic bike, and if I could afford one, it would be what I'm getting, but I might have to settle for an older Speed Four instead. Ho Hum.

mossy1200

7th February 2015, 22:59

kaz hasn't been in her post a while. I hope she is ok. Its worries me when a member seeks advice from KB sometimes.

samgab

7th February 2015, 23:10

... It worries me when a member seeks advice from KB sometimes.

Yeah... At least the general consensus was: "Don't worry about going faster, rather, try to be smooth and safe when cornering, and then being a bit quicker will follow with practise and experience", which I think is good advice.

Smooth and gentle with the throttle, brakes, steering, clutch, and gear shifts is best all round. Better for the bike, for fuel economy, and for safety!

mossy1200

7th February 2015, 23:16

Yeah... At least the general consensus was: "Don't worry about going faster, rather, try to be smooth and safe when cornering, and then being a bit quicker will follow with practise and experience", which I think is good advice.

Smooth and gentle with the throttle, brakes, steering, clutch, and gear shifts is best all round. Better for the bike, for fuel economy, and for safety!

Agree. The main thing is not to try out perform your ability. Its like climbing a ladder. If you feel unsafe in your action the fear causes a higher risk of falling. If you have no regard for danger then you will have a higher chance of falling also. Safety is having respect for the dangers but controlling the fear by operating within you skill levels.

DamianW

8th February 2015, 07:13

The track day at Hampton Downs last Friday (Waitangi Day) was a good example of what happens when riders use poor judgement resulting in more than a few bikes getting binned on the day. Riders going in to corners too quickly on cold tyres on a patchy wet track was a common feature in the morning sessions. There is no doubt that track days / track coaching will help the OP develop - the caveat being to bring the right attitude to learning/skill development (speed will come in time with practice). Suggest the OP goes with a riding buddy and listens carefully to the key messages in the safety briefings.

DamianW

8th February 2015, 08:53

From what poster 1 said and others have agreed with me their riding buddies have, it appears have placed pressure on her to "keep up" So she would be best to go to a track training day alone so there is no pressure upon her to "keep up" on the track either. The riders you saw go down may have been under pressure to "keep up" or "compete" with their mates too.

Yes, fair point.

I missed out the words 'mature minded' riding buddy. In my case I went to CSS alone, met some great people and have done track days and road rides with them ever since. None of them are willy-wavers and take safety as seriously as I do.

eldog

8th February 2015, 12:59

mossy1200

8th February 2015, 13:17

I haven't been to a track day, how good are the safety briefings?
i am quite happy to improve my general riding slowly with proper training then one day I will give a group novice a go. Hopefully with a strong no nonsense trainer.

Some track days have more offs than race days.
I once took my new bike on a track day. The risks people on cheap bikes took put me off taking a good road bike back to a track day.
Instead I bought a pre89 and went racing. Took that 2 a track day and had fun.

Track Day
<iframe width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZPWYmmBIUqo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DamianW

8th February 2015, 13:22

I haven't been to a track day, how good are the safety briefings?
i am quite happy to improve my general riding slowly with proper training then one day I will give a group novice a go. Hopefully with a strong no nonsense trainer.

The Play Days team at Hampton Downs do a great job IMO. Attending the safety briefing at the start of the day is essential in ensuring new track day goers in particular understand the do's and dont's e.g passing rules, flags, track entry & exits, signal lights etc. Control riders (wearing hiz viz vests) are usually with each group on the track to monitor riders lines, braking points, any massive speed differentials between riders (usually meaning someone is riding in the wrong group) etc. There's also plenty of marshals on each of the corners who ensure the sessions run smoothly.

Once you've popped your track day cherry it becomes very addictive as with practice, your brain starts getting used to riding at higher speeds in a relative controlled environment. As has been mentioned by other, riding at 60% and focusing on one thing at a time (braking, reference points, steering, throttle control, body positioning...) delivers good results.

Good luck.

eldog

8th February 2015, 13:23

Some track days have more offs than race days.
I once took my new bike on a track day. The risks people on cheap bikes took put me off taking a good road bike back to a track day.
Instead I bought a pre89 and went racing. Took that 2 a track day and had fun.

My bike insurance doesn't cover my bikes on the track.
might take up your suggestion about a track day only bike 1000RR?:clap: , won't need rego or wof but be track worthy which I guess will be more strict.... Something to think about once I get a bit more practise and confidence :nya: coming soon to a track near you.

Will have to buy some proper gear aye boys..... BMW RACE GEAR ANY GOOD? :banana:

thanks to DamianW as well for the info :2thumbsup

DamianW

8th February 2015, 13:31

To give you an idea here's a quick vid taken in the novice group last year:

http://youtu.be/2_F1g5Td6Ho

* Go pro touching down ended the footage :)

thehovel

10th February 2015, 14:58

I'm lurking in Levin. Still keep an eye on nass and sass. Regards Richard

pritch

11th February 2015, 13:52

:facepalm:

A few slices short of a loaf

A few cans short of a six pack

A few flowers short of a bouquet

A few sandwiches short of a picnic

A few kumura short of a hangi

A few sheep short in the top paddock

The oil doesn't quite reach the dipstick

The lights are on but there's nobody home

and so on

Big Dog

11th February 2015, 18:25

My favourite it might be mating season, but there is no bull in the paddock.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

bluninja

11th February 2015, 18:38

Ordered to stop swimming in the gene pool

nzspokes

11th February 2015, 18:56

caseye

11th February 2015, 19:18

By Eldog.

My bike insurance doesn't cover my bikes on the track.

Then get an insurance company that does, for instance ours does, Swan as long ass you 1/ Tell them.
2/ Don't clock/time yourself.
Then you can ride on a track at speed with complete confidence.
Can't get better than doing IT and getting it right aye!

Big Dog

12th February 2015, 06:59

The other alternative is track insurance. Some track days offer one day insurance. Some companies offer it to riders at approved track days.
State / protecta used to cover ART days for $25 for a full license holder, $50 for others last time I phoned around. Free for members.

My policy covers any track day where non racing tuition is being provided, as long as I tell them first and they are on the approved list or I can get a letter from the organiser confirming tuition from a suitable instructor will be available.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

HenryDorsetCase

12th February 2015, 07:31

I lowsided my street bike on a track day and did a grands plus worth of damage to it (there is a thread somewhere)..... the bike was rideable (and I rode it home from Levels in Timaruvia to Christchurch) but cosmetic damage is expensive. I bought a cheap-ish VFR400 NC30 for trackdays after that. Even if I cartwheel the thing up the track ON FIRE I will still be able to either get it running or repaired for way cheaper than a road bike. It doesnt have to be pretty just run and be straight. If you are going to do a few, I reckon it is worthwhile. You do of course need to get it to the track so need a trailer and a car or a mate with a trailer and a car or a van, but if you die with the most toys you win.

Currently contemplating selling mine to buy a dirt/dual purpose bike though because I have not used it in more than a year.

nzspokes

12th February 2015, 07:35

f2dz

12th February 2015, 09:51

My bike insurance doesn't cover my bikes on the track.
might take up your suggestion about a track day only bike, won't need rego or wof but be track worthy which I guess will be more strict.... Something in a year or two

What insurer are you with? I'm with Swann and I just have to tell them in advance what track day I'm doing. They cover for ART days, which have tuition and are run by AMCC, and Playdays too, which have no tuition.

I don't have to pay extra for the cover too, at least not at the time of arranging it. Perhaps it's worked into my premium..

Big Dog

12th February 2015, 13:37

What insurer are you with? I'm with Swann and I just have to tell them in advance what track day I'm doing. They cover for ART days, which have tuition and are run by AMCC, and Playdays too, which have no tuition.

I don't have to pay extra for the cover too, at least not at the time of arranging it. Perhaps it's worked into my premium..

A guy from Swann told me that the crunchers worked it out that the total risk of not letting people do track days was higher than letting them go if they said in advance. Quite simply people were lying to their insurance company before they changed their policies.
Also a bin at 100 on the track usually results in a lot less damage than 100 on the road because a track has less traffic and road furniture.
Plus, those who partake are less likely to crash on the road statistically. IIRC based on numbers from Europe.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Banditbandit

12th February 2015, 16:03

...it's a fucking long way for a cup of tea...try Crashers coffee, it's closer...l

Have you tried the coffee at Wellington Motorcycles?

Don't bother, your a woman and don't belong on a bike anyway.

Carver !!! Where the hell have you been ????

carver

13th February 2015, 05:25

Have you tried the coffee at Wellington Motorcycles?

Carver !!! Where the hell have you been ????

Been busy stalking women on here!

SVboy

13th February 2015, 20:04

Been busy stalking women on here!

Oooooooh Carver. This forum just took a turn for the better.

mstriumph

21st February 2015, 14:29

have resigned myself to never going as quick round corners as some others ... but they push their envelope further than I'm prepared to do - I accept that.

ellipsis

21st February 2015, 15:03

have resigned myself to never going as quick round corners as some others ... but they push their envelope further than I'm prepared to do - I accept that.

...I've resigned myself to not going out, anymore...there are too many corners out there...

Maha

21st February 2015, 15:14

Oooooooh Carver. This forum just took a turn for the better.

He's under the thumb nowadays, it (being on here) wont last.

Kickaha

21st February 2015, 18:14

...I've resigned myself to not going out, anymore..

You shouldn't, you're an endangered species
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gingers-could-become-extinct-due-3821838

ellipsis

21st February 2015, 19:13

You shouldn't, you're an endangered species
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/gingers-could-become-extinct-due-3821838

...the world will have gloomy spots...you will find us there...

ellipsis

21st February 2015, 19:50

Good on you for not wanting to feel under pressure to keep up. You will likely live longer than those who do.

...but look who we have to share it with us...cool eh....

SVboy

22nd February 2015, 09:14

[QUOTE=cassina;1130834075]Good on you for wanting to stay in bed, under the covers, with the lights off, because life is scary.You will likely live longer than those who live life to the full, rather than the pathetic excuse for a life that I lead./QUOTE]

Edited for accuracy

caseye

22nd February 2015, 17:40

eldog

22nd February 2015, 22:47

Good on you for not wanting to feel under pressure to keep up. You will likely live longer than those who do.

I learnt the hard way, with wet tar bleed, I never knew about it before it happened.
no one had mentioned it in the group i ride with.
I found later that my riding is my responsibility, no one else.
yes people can say you can go faster, but it's up to the individual to decide.
obviously there is more training both on the road/track/off-road.
i would like to ride with more confidence first, and then speed will come (I am slow).
If you are riding with the right people they will understand.

if you ride in a group and you have an accident you will be surprised the reaction you will get.

i find its about the ride, the smells, the feeling and the sensations i get when I ride. Not about beating some speed record, I will save that for the track, when I get there.

your ride your responsibility - ATGATT:yes:

Kendoll

1st March 2015, 11:05

I'm going with the general consensus here, ride your own ride, at your own pace, stuff what the signs say or others around you. You'll naturally find your own 'comfy' speed zone, whether it be slow or fast, as long as you're on two wheels you're doing it right :D

Also, I had a street triple for 3 years, they are epic bikes and trust me, very hard to stuff up on :yes: Good luck and enjoy!

JimmyC

2nd March 2015, 09:20

I was listening to a North American adventure riding podcast a couple of years back and they had a guest speaker on who'd ridden around the world multiple times over many decades. At the end of the podcast he was asked for the single biggest piece of advice he would give to other riders -

Make sure you can stop in the distance you can see in front of you.

I haven't read the whole thread so not sure if that gem has been mentioned here already, but it's something I live (being the operative word) by.

Banditbandit

4th March 2015, 15:20

Also, I had a street triple for 3 years, they are epic bikes and trust me, very hard to stuff up on :yes: Good luck and enjoy!

My mate did - in the Waioeka Gorge - they loaded both pieces of the bike onto a ute and he was in hospital for days, off work for months and has only been back on a bike this year - seven months later

(He bought another speed triple ...)

Banditbandit

6th March 2015, 08:05

I assume he was able to workout what went wrong and it did not happen to be the bike.

Yeah .. he knew the back tyre needed replacing but he didn't ... went into a corner too hot and lost it big time ...

He fucked up ...

george formby

6th March 2015, 09:08

Make sure you can stop in the distance you can see in front of you.

it's something I live (being the operative word) by.

Yup, comes from the Police handbook. Been my mantra for decades. Can't say I do it a 100% of the time but i enjoy my riding more if I'm focused on how fast I can stop in a blind corner rather than how fast I can go.
If other riders pull away from me then so be it.
Probably why I usually opt to go last when in company.

iranana

10th March 2015, 15:21

george formby

10th March 2015, 22:46

Cornering is something that has taken me years to refine. The key is to take it easy and let your confidence and skills gradually build up. Don't underestimate the value of getting good with low speed manoeuvrability, too. Helps in all aspects of riding. Works for me, anyway. If someone's giving you shit about being slow, then just don't ride with them. Friends shouldn't encourage friends to ride (or drive) outside of their comfort zone. It's all about preservation, without living in a bubble.

Commendable post. I pretty much feel the same way. After decades of riding I finally learned how to go round a corner in a car park. What a wake up call.
I have zero tolerance for risky riders. I have yet to meet a psychic biker.

Cassina, peer pressure stopped for me more than 20 years ago. All the people I ride with gauge there pace to give the slowest / newest / least confident rider a good fun day out. If I see a following rider running wide out of corners I slow down. Lots of discussion about riding & observation so we can all improve.
Ego & image are irrelevant.
Jeez that sounds trite, I love a good fang as much anyone but I do consider those I ride with, whether I could put them at risk or they could lure me beyond my ability.
It keeps on boiling down to the same thing, training & practice. Take nothing for granted.

I rode the Broadwood road a few weeks ago, the Mangamuka alternative. Had me Dad in tow and he is more boiling fowl than spring chicken nowadays. He can certainly punt a bike, though. Any hoo, we were nipping along and got onto a stretch of road with major subsidence, basically smooth holes. I approached a delicious uphill left hander, looked perfect for chucking the bike on it's ear & putting the hammer in but it was in deep shade from trees. Sure enough, right on the apex their is a very deep slump, almost a foot deep. Proper nasty if you were going to quick, I saw it and rode around it.
When we got home me Dad told me he was following my lines as close as he could and did not see the slump until he was virtually on it. Shook him a little despite not riding into it.
That's a win for my mentality I reckon.
Home safe is fundamental for everybody.

george formby

10th March 2015, 23:26

Just been talking about the above post with my better half. A pertinent point came up. If you can watch the road and the rider in front of you comfortably then the pace is pretty good. To much watching the bike ahead causes problems.

Kinda trumps my earlier post but relevant to the thread. Any hoo. Safety first.
Just sayin.

Bikemad

11th March 2015, 10:56

Will agree with you there as that is the most dangerous thing about group rides as safety goes out the door with many when there is pressure to keep up.

OMG............please............not again

ellipsis

11th March 2015, 11:27

...you all keep talking to it...what the fuck do you expect...

george formby

11th March 2015, 12:03

If your Dad had focussed on the road and other traffic and not trying to keep up with you there is still a possibility he may have seen the slump in plenty of time anyway.

Maybe, but even at 20kmh he did not see it until he was on top of it, eyesight thing in bad, flat, light and maybe tinted visor. That's why I slowed down so much. On earlier rides I had picked up that he was late in registering changes in road surface so rode to suit.
Any hoo. I should not post when I get in from work. Well off topic.
I apologise for rambling.

ellipsis

11th March 2015, 12:57

I think its a good idea to post safety advice more than once as you never know if the person who reads it is not reading it for the first time now do you?

...what fucking advice you fucking moron... you are even worse than I originally suspected...fuck off!...

ellipsis

11th March 2015, 13:04

A moron like you would not see it as advise anyway so why are you wasting your time responding to my posts ????

...advice I would advise...cunt...

bluninja

11th March 2015, 14:49

Since you have stated it I would say the tinted visor would be the major issue for not seeing it. I will always flip my visor up should the light get bad even with a clear one.

So you risk being blinded by road debris (flying loose metal chips), insects, rain, dust, wind. If you keep a clear visor clean and scratch free there should be no issue with visibility in low or poor light conditions.....or do you ride at night with the visor up?

bluninja

12th March 2015, 11:06

I wear glasses under my visor which are better than the visor for optical quality so I still am able to have protection in low light. As I live in a city with tar sealed roads the chance of being blinded by gravel is slim. Fogging is an issue that can affect visors so even if its brand new if it starts fogging up it is safer to flip it up.

And are your spectacles impact resistant like your visor? I suspect they are rose tinted. As for tar sealed roads.....I have had to replace 2 windscreens due to small stones or debris hitting the car and it's only driven on tar sealed roads. Fogging; there are very good systems on modern helmets to prevent fogging...it's safer to fit one than risk being temporarily blinded and driving into some other vehicle you can't see.

SVboy

12th March 2015, 13:54

Cassina-the KB version of herpies!

bluninja

12th March 2015, 14:53

If you read my post again I said I flip my visor up if it starts fogging so there is no way like you claim that I am going to ride trying to look through a fogged up visor!!! Fogging up never lasts long anyway and mostly happens when stopped at the lights for me. Once moving again the fogging goes away or I will just flip the visor up again. I do have some of that Fog off fluid but am yet to try it on my visor so will give it a go sometime. As for buying a new helmet with fog prevention built in the visor I am not going to worry about that as fogging is mostly an around town thing and traffic generally does not go fast enough to flick stones as high as my visor anyway. Just as some of you guys have never crashed I have never been hit by a stone chip in my face.

Perhaps that's because they are attracted by gravity to the large chip on your shoulder.

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 16:23

If you read my post again I said I flip my visor up if it starts fogging so there is no way like you claim that I am going to ride trying to look through a fogged up visor!!! Fogging up never lasts long anyway and mostly happens when stopped at the lights for me. Once moving again the fogging goes away or I will just flip the visor up again. I do have some of that Fog off fluid but am yet to try it on my visor so will give it a go sometime. As for buying a new helmet with fog prevention built in the visor I am not going to worry about that as fogging is mostly an around town thing and traffic generally does not go fast enough to flick stones as high as my visor anyway. Just as some of you guys have never crashed I have never been hit by a stone chip in my face.

You are a danger on the roads, go buy a pinlock visor before you kill somebody.

Katman

12th March 2015, 17:01

You are a danger on the roads, go buy a pinlock visor before you kill somebody.

Are you serious?

Do you actually think not having a pin lock visor makes someone a danger on the road?

FJRider

12th March 2015, 17:14

You are a danger on the roads, go buy a pinlock visor before you kill somebody.

I have NEVER had a pinlock visor ... and in over 40 years of motorcycling ... NEVER killed anybody (on the road) ...

Perhaps I need more rider training to change that ... :facepalm:

And ........... I use a clothes peg to stop the visor closing completely. AND ... I admit ... I have lost a few pegs over the years ... :laugh:

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 17:17

I have NEVER had a pinlock visor ... and in over 40 years of motorcycling ... NEVER killed anybody (on the road) ...

Perhaps I need more rider training to change that ... :facepalm:

And ........... I use a clothes peg to stop the visor closing completely. AND ... I admit ... I have lost a few pegs over the years ... :laugh:

You put it on ya nose?

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 17:18

Are you serious?

No.

10char

FJRider

12th March 2015, 17:20

... it's safer to fit one than risk being temporarily blinded and driving into some other vehicle you can't see.

Tell me again why ... motorcycling is NOT dangerous ... :facepalm:

Have you ever ridden into some other vehicle you didn't see ... ???

FJRider

12th March 2015, 17:25

You put it on ya nose?

Nah ... pegs aren't big enough.

I slide the open peg up the perspex from the bottom. Visor wont close ... but can get a tad cool on my nose. But ... I CAN SEE WHERE I'M GOING ... too simple for you .. ??

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 17:28

too simple for you .. ??

I like simple solutions. My visor just stays where its put.

FJRider

12th March 2015, 17:33

I like simple solutions. My visor just stays where its put.

You must be Cassina's brother ... :pinch:

I am (obviously) a peg above everybody else then ... ;)

Big Dog

12th March 2015, 17:35

There are few or no absolutes in riding.
I hate it when people say never.
If you are not there at the helm you may be wrong in your assesment.

I hear it all the time:
* Never brake in a corner! Well fuck me, if I listened to that little gem in the road code circa 1993 I would have had several major head ons. Because I over rode this generalistic twattitude with the common sense of better to risk a head on and or losing control than to guarantee one on finding opposing traffic on my side of a blind corner I survived at least 1 occasion this year and probably 10 - 15 times in the last 23 years. And no I was not speeding any of these times, yes there have been other times of similar number where dropping a gear and booting it was of equal saviour.

* Never put your visor up while riding! Yep, listened to that one and wrote off my bike. No, I don't listen to that one any more. I often travel at lower speeds with the visor up and sunglasses on. Do you open the windows in your car? if so do you have safety glasses on? my worst facial injury to date was from a stone through the passenger side window of a car I was driving. I have also had multiple stinging insects come in through the vent in my helmet and start flying around... you bet the visor went up smartish! Shit happens.
Pinlock with the visor down can be very dangerous in a few situations I have discovered, incuding but not limited to, glasses under the visor fogging up, sun at a bad angle, tunnels with lights, sun dappled roads. Yes, if the visor is the obstruciton to me seeing what is going on the visor goes up until it will no longer be the greatest hazard present.

* Never use the front brake while accelerating! Nope, not generaly a smart strategy but I have had to use this strategy to regain control when the throttel stuck wide on an older bike I didn't own.

You make your choices and you play the cards you are dealt.

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 17:39

You must be Cassina's brother ... :pinch:

Oh thats harsh.

FJRider

12th March 2015, 17:44

There are few or no absolutes in riding.

Only ONE that matters ... RIDE TO THE CONDITIONS ... ;)

Big Dog

12th March 2015, 18:12

Only ONE that matters ... RIDE TO THE CONDITIONS ... ;)

There is an exception to every rule except this one.

george formby

12th March 2015, 21:56

Only ONE that matters ... RIDE TO THE CONDITIONS ... ;)

Aaaaaagh, my fingers have been taken over by an evil demon. Just got home from work & wammo, Evil Dead in the living room and not a chainsaw in sight.

But yeah, the shouty bit in the quote is the be all and end all. Slow down so your speed matches what you can see. Or not see in some circumstances.

I like the peg idea. Been demisting my visor with my tongue for decades. It's not easy.

Just to be relevant, observation dictates the speed you can enter and exit a corner. The more you see & understand going in, the more efficient you can be coming out. Bike control, steering, braking, throttle ect enhances observation. IMHO. Just sayin.

That's me for tonight, I'm going to do some research on pegs.

Big Dog

12th March 2015, 22:04

Most modern visors have a mechanism to hold them at 1/2 a click. Shoei have a little lever, hjc have a clicker etc.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

nzspokes

12th March 2015, 22:21

I am guessing the guy thinks that if you take your hand off the bar to flip the visor up will cause a loss of control only holding on with one hand for a few seconds. He would be dead now by his own admission if pin lock visors (whatever they are) were not invented when he started riding.

Wow you are a prat.

Of course I can ride one handed, how else would I text? :nya:

george formby

12th March 2015, 22:27

Most modern visors have a mechanism to hold them at 1/2 a click. Shoei have a little lever, hjc have a clicker etc.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Modern? My hemlet is made of cork.

Ckuf, demon again. Cassina, not taking a hand off the bars only applies to A merckan labelled cruiser riders. See the waving thread(s). And stop being obsessed with death. You've fallen off heaps and your still posting.
Oh, if your visor fogs up how come your specs don't?

george formby

12th March 2015, 22:30

Wow you are a prat.

Of course I can ride one handed, how else would I text? :nya:

I can wave in a corner.:lol:

Recently acquired an open face helmet so I'm building up to eating a pie on the go.

george formby

12th March 2015, 22:54

Spec do not have the same degree of airtightness so are less prone to fog and if they do I just tilt them down on my nose until I get up enough speed for them to clear which is usually seconds.

What a picture, you a school teacher?:laugh:
Had a maths teacher who slipped his specs down his nose when he got steamed up.

Big Dog

12th March 2015, 23:04

With a jaw/noggin my size I can fog up a pinlock at less than 30.

bluninja

13th March 2015, 06:55

Tell me again why ... motorcycling is NOT dangerous ... :facepalm:

Have you ever ridden into some other vehicle you didn't see ... ???

Like incest, it's all relative. Everything has the potential to be dangerous. My quoted text actually said SAFER, not SAFE. IS Cassina your love child? you're showing the same level of miscomprehension.

buggerit

13th March 2015, 09:17

I can wave in a corner.:lol:

Recently acquired an open face helmet so I'm building up to eating a pie on the go.

I have noticed over the years, that riders with open face helmets tended to be fat and assumed it was from insect consumption.

Maybe those saddle bags are full of pies, and the tassles keep the flies away?

buggerit

13th March 2015, 09:22

With a jaw/noggin my size I can fog up a pinlock at less than 30.

Check the seal, you may need to rotate the pins to force the pinlock tighter against the visor.

Big Dog

13th March 2015, 15:52

Check the seal, you may need to rotate the pins to force the pinlock tighter against the visor.

Except it is fogging up on the side my face is on. No the visor side of the insert.

Yes, sometimes I find it fogs up inside too. Then I take it off, was in dishwater and reinstall.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Big Dog

13th March 2015, 16:32

I have noticed over the years, that riders with open face helmets tended to be fat and assumed it was from insect consumption.

Maybe those saddle bags are full of pies, and the tassles keep the flies away?

Or just older, less active.
Reasons I have given: we are doing lots of slow riding and the only other realistic option is shedding gear. Eg doing walking pace exercises for over an hour. Around bike festivals.

Reasons I have been given?
I like to smoke while riding - Explains the burns in the beard.
I like to eat - from someone with burn scars down one cheek and the chin. Always blow on the pie. Especially cheese pies.
I like the wind in my hair - always from bald men.
So the girls can see me smile - always Middle Aged, usually overweight, bald men with dodgy teeth.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

FJRider

13th March 2015, 17:00

Like incest, it's all relative.

I can assure you .. Cassina is not a relative.

Driving is safer than motorcycling. So a higher ACC levy should be expected.

bluninja

14th March 2015, 07:47

I can assure you .. Cassina is not a relative.

Driving is safer than motorcycling. So a higher corner speed should be expected in cars.

Research was done in UK on police drivers and riders into accident rates and so on (sorry no links, so choose to disbelieve if you like). The result was that the accident rate for bikes per km was lower than for cars but the effects of those accidents was higher on bikes. The net result was they considered that for police trained and assessed drivers/riders the risk was the same.

BTW I didn't think this was the ACC thread so I fixed your quote :woohoo:

veldthui

14th March 2015, 16:20

Only thing wrong is.... You suggested to corner at the posted advisory speed. Ignore speed signs. They don't take into account gravel, they never seem to be the same, a 45 can sometimes be taken faster than a 55. They don't tell you there's less grip from tar bleed. Ignore them, learn to watch the road, read the road. Make a judgement on each corner based on experience, skill level, condition and prepare for what can't be seen around the corner. Take a 35k corner at 60 safely one day, then the same corner the next day at 20.

Go to a track day, go to an acc subsidised rider training program and get some practice. If traffic is getting away from you, let them, who cares. If traffic is being held up behind you, pull over when safe to do so and let faster traffic past.

Those advisory speed signs are set 15-25km/h below the speed which the 85th percentile of traffic safely navigates the corner. Trucks can travel at pretty near to those speeds. Yes your bike is capable of higher speeds, but right now, you aren't, travel at a comfortable speed. Ride your own ride.

Actually the speed recommendations are set so that the average person can stop in 1/2 the distance you can see through the corner. It has nothing to do about how fast you can actually take the corner in any vehicle. It is all about stopping distance through the corner.

FJRider

14th March 2015, 16:31

Actually the speed recommendations are set so that the average person can stop in 1/2 the distance you can see through the corner. It has nothing to do about how fast you can actually take the corner in any vehicle. It is all about stopping distance through the corner.

BULLSHIT.

The speed advisory figure is measured by driving a vehicle around the curve at a constant speed and measuring the lateral forces acting on the vehicle using a side thrust gauge. Two runs that yield the same result must be made for a sign to be adopted.

The speed set for the curve is 15kph less than the 85th percentile curve approach speed for speed of 30-60kph, i.e. the speed at which the top 15% of traffic would approach the curve, i.e. the speed just before the traffic begins to slow down. Therefore if the sign says 15kph then the 85% percentile is travelling at 30kph. For speeds of 80-90kph the advisory speed is 25kph less. For 110-130kph the advisory speed is 35kph less. These speed guidelines were set in the 1990s and are now out-of-date because overall speeds are lower and vehicle capabilities are higher. Although this doesn't stop surprisingly frequent rollovers of heavy vehicles each year through misjudging the corner.

Signs are placed at least 120m ahead of the curve in rural areas and 60m ahead of the curve in urban areas.

FJRider

14th March 2015, 18:20

And so should the level of registration. Those that support the current ACC charges though will say this is NZ and not the UK so we are happy to pay more than cars anyway.

Be sure to crash more often then .. and get your moneys worth ...

veldthui

15th March 2015, 02:44

BULLSHIT.

The speed advisory figure is measured by driving a vehicle around the curve at a constant speed and measuring the lateral forces acting on the vehicle using a side thrust gauge. Two runs that yield the same result must be made for a sign to be adopted.

The speed set for the curve is 15kph less than the 85th percentile curve approach speed for speed of 30-60kph, i.e. the speed at which the top 15% of traffic would approach the curve, i.e. the speed just before the traffic begins to slow down. Therefore if the sign says 15kph then the 85% percentile is travelling at 30kph. For speeds of 80-90kph the advisory speed is 25kph less. For 110-130kph the advisory speed is 35kph less. These speed guidelines were set in the 1990s and are now out-of-date because overall speeds are lower and vehicle capabilities are higher. Although this doesn't stop surprisingly frequent rollovers of heavy vehicles each year through misjudging the corner.

Signs are placed at least 120m ahead of the curve in rural areas and 60m ahead of the curve in urban areas.

I can see you read that off a driving test site. Doing a defensive driving course it was hammered home that it was stopping distance. To work out 85 percentile is a pure guess unless someone sits on a corner measuring speeds for many days.

haydes55

15th March 2015, 06:32

FJRider

15th March 2015, 06:52

I can see you read that off a driving test site. Doing a defensive driving course it was hammered home that it was stopping distance. To work out 85 percentile is a pure guess unless someone sits on a corner measuring speeds for many days.

This is the important bit ... is how the advisory speed is calculated for a corner.

The figure is measured by driving a vehicle around the curve at a constant speed and measuring the lateral forces acting on the vehicle using a side thrust gauge. Two runs that yield the same result must be made for a sign to be adopted.

HenryDorsetCase

15th March 2015, 09:20

how are you people not bored of this yet?

Woodman

15th March 2015, 10:09

how are you people not bored of this yet?

You mean this thread or KB in general?

FJRider

15th March 2015, 10:13

This is the important bit ... is how the advisory speed is calculated for a corner.

Speed advisory's on bends would most likely be as a result on the number of crashes on the bend. There would be no one formula that you could apply to all vehicles and bikes as they all handle differently.

You can't even quote another post on KB properly ... I don't know you can manage on a motorcycle.

But in reply ... the speed advisory signs are only advisory. Not mandatory limits to all vehicles ... " ... but as a Result of number of crashes on the bend .. ??? " ... :killingme

If you choose to ignore the advisory limits ... and crash on a corner ... it may be an accident reported as being one where speed was a factor. (ie: going too fast for the corner)

Dangerous driving charges may even follow ... even if you were under the posted speed limit for that area.

haydes55

15th March 2015, 18:47

Dangerous driving charges may even follow ... even if you were under the posted speed limit for that area.

I would hope every crash resulted in a dangerous driving charge. If the driving wasn't dangerous, a crash wouldn't have happened.

(for 90% of crashes at least)

nzspokes

15th March 2015, 18:51

[QUOTE=FJRider;1130841875]This is the important bit ... is how the advisory speed is calculated for a corner.[/QUOTE

Speed advisory's on bends would most likely be as a result on the number of crashes on the bend. There would be no one formula that you could apply to all vehicles and bikes as they all handle differently.

You are still an idiot.

Metastable

16th March 2015, 15:20

rider training days at a trackday.
if you're scared to ride faster than you do, and your mates are giving you shit for it - well its time to get some new friends

What he said.

Track schools will teach a street rider very important skills, even if you never plan on doing trackdays/go racing. Furthermore, I will say this (which many people won't agree with, but I am a firm believer) it would be even better if you did a track school that concentrates on trail braking. You see, most people just have to lean a bit more to make a corner when they THINK they are coming into a corner too hot, even though they really aren't going all that fast. However, if you want to give yourself the confidence of knowing that you can go around a corner even if you do have too much entrance speed, then you need to be comfortable trail braking. Once you learn how to trail brake, you give yourself a huge "fudge factor". You can brake mid corner, brake past the apex, or brake all the way around a corner... it doesn't matter.

Now, someone will most likely come in here and say that I am a nut case to suggest a newbie learn trail braking. In reality I have seen new (very slow) riders be taught trail braking and have naturally progressed much quicker than other riders who were never taught this technique. It is nothing new, the racers have been doing it for years.

Also, I don't suggest you ride like a maniac having to do crazy braking at every corner. However, it is a massive skill set to have in your back pocket if you get into a pickle. knowing you CAN get out of a pickle will give you the confidence to ride at a decent but safe pace.

george formby

16th March 2015, 16:02

What he said.
track school that concentrates on trail braking. it is a massive skill set to have in your back pocket if you get into a pickle. give you the confidence .

I pretty much agree. You don't need to go to a track to learn it, though. My N00b girlfriend and my delusional self covered trail braking on a recent rider training course, on public roads. I guess our instructor was happy enough with our riding to cover it. I've been doing it for years in ignorance, it just felt right, but we were taught the mechanics of it. For my G/F it's given her a tool (no sniggering) to avoid oh shit moments on the occasional corner. Shes not to fast just judges corners conservatively, as she should, and can now correct her line and speed comfortably rather than through gritted teeth. Easy.
A bit of good training goes a long way.

I think this walking lark is over rated. When people walked everywhere living into your 40's was considered very old age, it can't be good for us.

george formby

16th March 2015, 16:07

Like you I have found braking in corners helps tightening the radius if I have come in too fast but the braking I do is only a light tap and I would not want to risk doing it in the wet. Where a newbie would likely have a problem with this is how much braking to apply.

You will always be a newbie if you don't practice, even in the wet.

george formby

16th March 2015, 16:13

Yup, it's a skill to keep us out of trouble. I learned how to do it off road and amongst other things it carried over to tarmac.

george formby

16th March 2015, 16:15

Good luck to you then if you are able to brake in a corner in the wet and not come off.

Er, that's why I practice in the wet. I can't control what happens on the road but I sure as hell can give myself the best shot at avoiding it. Ignorance leads to fear.
Get out & practice, it's really not scary.

Big Dog

16th March 2015, 16:25

Good luck to you then if you are able to brake in a corner in the wet and not come off.

Given how often it rains here I'm surprised there is anyone who would call themselves an experienced rider who can't.

Even a fair weather rider should practice in the wet, given how narrow and ocean bound we are the weather can be very unpredictable.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

PrincessBandit

16th March 2015, 17:07

how are you people not bored of this yet?

OMG, I can't believe it's still going and that the female version of katman -with- a- bone is still worrying away at it...

I'm going with the general consensus here, ride your own ride, at your own pace, stuff what the signs say or others around you. You'll naturally find your own 'comfy' speed zone, whether it be slow or fast...

If you are concerned about riding alone and coming off with no one to find you until you've been half eaten by wild hogs, falcons and rats then go with a trusted friend who is able to rein in their own riding in order to help you extend yourself at your own pace. Most things take practice; improving lines, cornering, braking etc. only comes with trying things out - not head knowledge gathered from the shallowed suppository of knowledge that is kb.

Yes, it was deliberate before some git decides to take me to task on grandma and spulling

mossy1200

16th March 2015, 17:08

Im thinking if your finding yourself needing to brake check corners on the road you should slow down a bit prior to entering the corner.

nzspokes

16th March 2015, 17:23

When I do it as I said its a fine tuning thing that would not work if I had not reduced the bulk of my speed prior to entering the corner.

So you go into corners to fast then.

bluninja

16th March 2015, 17:49

Good luck to you then if you are able to brake in a corner in the wet and not come off.

So what happens when there's something in the way (eg jacknifed truck) part way around the corner? Do you just hit it for fear of falling off when braking in the wet? People suggest you set your speed in a bend to the distance you can safely stop in...so in the wet how slow do you have to go to be able to stop without brakes in a bend?

There's nothing lucky about remaining in control under acceleration and braking in the wet, it's a skill to be learned and practiced....but I suggest you go real slow and perhaps modify your bike..309959

mossy1200

16th March 2015, 17:58

When I do it as I said its a fine tuning thing that would not work if I had not reduced the bulk of my speed prior to entering the corner.

Your either going to fast or your bikes got a bad case of understeer if you need start applying brakes mid corner in a none emergency situation. Using your method of daily riding leaves you playing a numbers game and the road surface is going to let you down at some point in time.

nzspokes

16th March 2015, 18:30

If you learn the trail braking technique as the other poster said you would be able to do it too but if you read my post again I did say I slow prior to the bend anyway. You would need to learn to do it at a track riding school.

No Ive know how to go into a turn to fast. Much safer.

How many times have you crashed?

mossy1200

16th March 2015, 19:13

Trail braking is like licking out a women. One slip up and your in the shit.

FJRider

16th March 2015, 19:24

I would hope every crash resulted in a dangerous driving charge. If the driving wasn't dangerous, a crash wouldn't have happened.

(for 90% of crashes at least)

That was ME you quoted. Not that mini titted wench Cassina.

If every bend with a speed advisory limit sign installed (due to the number of crashes on THAT corner) ... it seems obvious that NZ roads must be a dam sight more dangerous the we ALL realized.

Thank God for ACC ... paying our medical costs to recuperate and all ... :lol:

Big Dog

17th March 2015, 11:20

As said good luck but for me personally I could think of nothing worse than coming off in the wet during a practise. Not all of us have a big bank balance like you. I bet you would have come off in the wet while practising yourself.

To be fair, of the hundreds of mentoring sessions I have led or the dozen or so I have been otherwise involved in:
There has been 4 low speed crashes that resulted in broken parts.
1 that required a visit to a hospital ( no ambulance but broken wrist ).
1 that only resulted in dented pride and a few extra scrapes.
5-6 standing still and dropped the bike. E.g walked away without putting side stand down or put it on a soft surface.
20-30 instances where someone lost control o a bike but did what they needed to to recover. E.g lost traction at the front, released, gained control and finished braking manoeuvre.
1 of those crashes that I can recall was in the wet and had to do with someone show boating rather than taking part in the exercises.
The worst damage I ever heard of was 1 broken clutch lever, a couple of broken tabs on a fairing, some new scratches on fairing and exhaust.
We practiced all weathers. Including horizontal rain. Probably > 30% had less than optimal conditions for some reason.

All of those would have been far more risky and more expensive had they occurred on a road.
Many was the person who told me about sometime that the learning they gleaned from the AWNMR, and later NASS as it became known, had saved them from a major.

Practice works, to succeed you must practice come what may.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

eldog

17th March 2015, 20:29

Practice works, to succeed you must practice come what may.

Some of us, need a person to whip us into shape and drive us on to better things, I am one of those. I thrive on challenges when pushed, or whipped into shape. Some of us need to know WHAT to practise, even though I know what I should be doing.

I agree any practise is good practise. But its hard to practise for something you (me) dont know about. The same can be said about planning, hard to plan for something you dont know about.
Thats why I got training and plan to do more. Just saying...

Big Dog

17th March 2015, 21:11

Some of us, need a person to whip us into shape and drive us on to better things, I am one of those. I thrive on challenges when pushed, or whipped into shape. Some of us need to know WHAT to practise, even though I know what I should be doing.

I agree any practise is good practise. But its hard to practise for something you (me) dont know about. The same can be said about planning, hard to plan for something you dont know about.
Thats why I got training and plan to do more. Just saying...

Aye, and you must not shy away from that practice just because some factor has become suboptimal... unless that factor is a clear and present danger in itself.

Flat tyres? Stop and sort it out.
Wet road? Level up your skillls until you hit expert mode.

eldog

17th March 2015, 21:16

Aye, and you must not shy away from that practice just because some factor has become suboptimal... unless that factor is a clear and present danger in itself.

Flat tyres? Stop and sort it out.
Wet road? Level up your skillls until you hit expert mode.

yes, right again.

clear and present danger is ME and lack of knowledge/being too carefool.

but point noted:niceone:

Metastable

18th March 2015, 16:48

Braking in a corner - from Nick Ienatsch

I have posted this before, for the OP and others that may not have seen it..... IMO it is a long, but good read.

Cheers!

*************************************************

"If you have to stop in a corner, one of two things will happen. One, you will stand the bike up and ride it off the shoulder and into whatever is over there. Or two, you will lay the bike down and slide off the shoulder of the road. Braking is done before, or after a corner. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind."

Hiya FZ1 lovers.
I’ve stewed for two days about the above quote taken from another FZ1OA thread...and finally decided to launch this thread. In past years I would have just rolled my eyes and muttered, “Whatever”…but not anymore. I want to tell you that there are measureable, explainable, repeatable, do-able reasons that make great riders great. And brake usage is at the very tippity-top of these reasons. It’ll save your life, it’ll make you a champion. It will save and grow our sport.
I’ll ask this one favor: Would you open your mind to what I’m about to write, then go out and mess around with it?
To begin: Realize that great motorcycle riding is more subtle in its inputs than most of us imagine. I bet you are moving your hand too quickly with initial throttle and brakes. Moving your right foot too quickly with initial rear brake. The difference between a lap record and a highside is minute, almost-immeasureable differences in throttle and lean angle. The difference between hitting the Camaro in your lane and missing it by a foot is the little things a rider can do with speed control at lean angle. Brakes at lean angle. Brakes in a corner.
Yes, a rider can brake in a corner. Yes. For sure. Guaranteed. I promise. Happens all the time. I do it on every ride, track or street. Yes, a rider can stop in a corner. In fact, any student who rides with the Yamaha Champions Riding School will tell you it’s possible. Complete stop, mid-corner…no drama. Newbies and experts alike.
There are some interesting processes to this sport, mostly revolving around racing. But as I thought about this thread, putting numbers on each thought made more sense because explaining these concepts relies on busting some myths and refining your inputs. Some things must be ingrained…like #1 below.

1)You never, ever, never stab at the brakes. Understand a tire’s grip this way: Front grip is divided between lean angle points and brake points, rear grip is lean angle points and acceleration points, lean angle points and brake points. Realize that the tire will take a great load, but it won’t take a sudden load…and so you practice this smooth loading at every moment in/on every vehicle. If you stab the brakes (um...or throttle...) in your pickup, you berate yourself because you know that the stab, at lean angle on your motorcycle (and bicycle, btw), will be a crash.

2)Let’s examine tire grip. If you’re leaned over at 95% (95 points in my book Sport Riding Techniques and fastersafer.com) of the tires’ available grip, you still have 5% of that grip available for braking (or accelerating). But maybe you only have 3%!!! You find out because you always add braking “points” in a smooth, linear manner. As the front tire reaches its limit, it will squirm and warn you…if that limit is reached in a linear manner.
It’s the grabbing of 30 points that hurts anyone leaned over more than 70 points. If you ride slowly with no lean angle, you will begin to believe that aggressiveness and grabbing the front brake lever is okay…and it is…until you carry more lean angle (or it’s raining, or you’re on a dirt road or your tire’s cold…pick your excuse). Do you have a new rider in your life? Get them thinking of never, ever, never grabbing the brakes. Throttle too…

3)If you STAB the front brake at lean angle, one of two things will happen. If the grip is good, the fork will collapse and the bike will stand up and run wide. If the grip is not-so-good, the front tire will lock and slide. The italicized advice at the beginning was written by a rider who aggressively goes after the front brake lever. His bike always stands up or lowsides. He’s inputting brake force too aggressively, too quickly...he isn't smoothly loading the fork springs or loading the tire. He may not believe this, but the tire will handle the load he wants, but the load must be fed-in more smoothly…and his experience leads to written advice that will hurt/kill other riders. “Never touch the brakes at lean angle?” Wrong. “Never grab the brakes at lean angle?” Right!
But what about the racers on TV who lose the front in the braking zone? Pay attention to when they lose grip. If it’s immediately, it’s because they stabbed the brake at lean angle. If it’s late in the braking zone, it’s because they finally exceeded 100 points of grip deep in the braking zone…if you’re adding lean angle, you’ve got to be “trailing off” the brakes as the tire nears its limit.

4) Radius equals MPH. Realize that speed affects the bike’s radius at a given lean angle. If the corner is tighter than expected, continue to bring your speed down. What’s the best way to bring your speed down? Roll off the throttle and hope you slow down? Or roll off the throttle and squeeze on a little brake? Please don’t answer off the top of your head…answer after you’ve experimented in the real world.
Do this: Ride in a circle in a parking lot at a given lean angle. That’s your radius. Run a circle or two and then slowly sneak on more throttle at the same lean angle and watch what your radius does. Now ride in the circle again, and roll off the throttle…at the same lean angle. You are learning Radius equals MPH. You are learning what throttle and off-throttle does to your radius through steering geometry changes and speed changes. You are learning something on your own, rather than asking for advice on subjects that affect your health and life. (You will also learn why I get so upset when new riders are told to push on the inside bar and pick up the throttle if they get in the corner too fast. Exactly the opposite of what the best riders do. But don’t believe me…try it.)
Let me rant for a moment: Almost every bit of riding advice works when the pace is low and the grip is high. It’s when the corner tightens or the sleet falls or the lap record is within reach…then everything counts.
“Get all your braking done before the turn,” is good riding advice. But what if you don’t? What if the corner goes the other way and is tighter and there’s gravel? It’s then that you don’t need advice, you need riding technique. Theory goes out the window and if you don’t perform the exact action, you will be lying in the dirt, or worse. Know that these techniques are not only understandable, but do-able by you. Yes you! I’m motivated to motivate you due to what I’ve seen working at Freddie’s school and now the Champ school…
I’m telling you this: If you can smoothly, gently pick-up your front brake lever and load the tire, you can brake at any lean angle on and FZ1. Why? Because our footpegs drag before our tires lose grip when things are warm and dry. It might be only 3 points, but missing the bus bumper by a foot is still missing the bumper! If it’s raining, you simply take these same actions and reduce them…you can still mix lean angle and brake pressure, but with considerably less of each. Rainy and cold? Lower still, but still combine-able.

5)So you’re into a right-hand corner and you must stop your bike for whatever reason. You close the throttle and sneak on the brakes lightly, balancing lean angle points against brake points. As you slow down, your radius continues to tighten. You don’t want to run off the inside of the corner, so you take away lean angle. What can you do with the brakes when you take away lean angle? Yes! Squeeze more. Stay with it and you will stop your bike mid-corner completely upright. No drama. But don’t just believe me…go prove it to yourself.

6)Let’s examine the final sentence in the italicized quote. The best thing to do before taking a corner is to grind the thought "I'm going to turn this corner" into your mind.
No, that’s not the best thing. It’s not the worst thing and I’m all for positive thinking, but we all need to see the difference between riding advice and riding techniques. This advice works until you enter a corner truly beyond your mental, physical or mechanical limits. I would change this to: The best thing to do before taking a corner is to scan with your eyes, use your brakes until you’re happy with your speed and direction, sneak open your throttle to maintain your chosen speed and radius, don’t accelerate until you can see your exit and can take away lean angle.
7)Do you think I’m being over-dramatic by claiming this will save our sport? Are we crashing because we’re going too slowly in the corners or too fast? Yes, too fast. What component reduces speed? Brakes. What component calms your brain? Brakes. What component, when massaged skillfully, helps the bike turn? Brakes. If riders are being told that they can’t use the brakes at lean angle, you begin to see the reason for my drama level. When I have a new rider in my life, my third priority is to have them, “Turn into the corner with the brake-light on.”

I’ve said it before: This is the only bike forum I’m a member of. I like it, I like the peeps, I like the info, I love the bike. Could we begin to change the information we pass along regarding brakes and lean angle? Could we control our sport by actually controlling our motorcycles? If we don’t control our sport, someone else will try. Closed throttle, no brakes is “out of the controls”. Get out there and master the brakes.
Thanks, I feel better.

Nick Ienatsch
Yamaha Champions Riding School
Fastersafer.com

jonnyk5614

28th May 2015, 12:46

When I first started, I was slowing down to 60 for 75 rated corners and so on....

I tried leaning but it felt unnatural.

Then I discovered counter-steering. As you approach a moderate to fast corner, gently push the bars the wrong way (while looking at the exit of the corner). As you do this, you will feel the bike naturally tilt into the corner. Half an hour doing that and I was got used to the feeling of leaning. Now I hit 75 corners at 100 and more.

Time and no pressure - you'll get used to it.

Erelyes

28th May 2015, 13:42

caseye

28th May 2015, 18:16

When I first started, I was slowing down to 60 for 75 rated corners and so on....

I tried leaning but it felt unnatural.

Then I discovered what I assume is counter-steering (correct me if I am wrong). As you approach a moderate to fast corner, gently push the bars the wrong way (while looking at the exit of the corner). As you do this, you will feel the bike naturally tilt into the corner. Half an hour doing that and I was got used to the feeling of leaning. Now I hit 75 corners at 100 and more.

Time and no pressure - you'll get used to it.

Same corner 99 times it works! Last time some arse dropped diesel all the way around it, allow for this when you set up for the corner, brake early, be ready to accelerate out but if you see the telltale rainbow on shiny shit, slow it up a bit more, stand her up if you have to, but get round.
whatever else you do, don't ever accept anything the next post after yours says as true or credible.

Big Dog

28th May 2015, 18:22

Same corner 99 times it works! Last time some arse dropped diesel all the way around it, allow for this when you set up for the corner, brake early, be ready to accelerate out but if you see the telltale rainbow on shiny shit, slow it up a bit more, stand her up if you have to, but get round.
whatever else you do, don't ever accept anything the next post after yours says as true or credible.

Same thing in less words:
Always ride with a thought to being able to stop in half the road you can see.

nzspokes

28th May 2015, 19:17

I think it has been said the majority of single motorcyle accidents happen on bends and you sound a very likely candidate for such an accident. Or what are you going to do at the faster speeds you travel at if another vehicle comes around the bend slightly over the centre line where if you had been travelling slower you may be able to avoid?

Because they would chose the correct line so they can see the threat.

caseye

28th May 2015, 19:19

Because they would chose the correct line so they can see the threat.

You know you are wasting good oxygen don't you Rob!

jonnyk5614

29th May 2015, 01:28

You're only just learning countersteering and you have a thou?

Fuck. Me. Running.

"When I first started out".

This was a while ago lol.