Learning from accidents

[rocketman1]

I am not one to look at gruesome accident videos etc. Generally I choose not to look at these video clips on youtube etc.
But the other night I looked at 1 hour of motorcycle accident clips in the hope I may learn from them.
The most of them involved stupid behaviour on the part of the rider, especially at intersections.
Many of them involved motorcyclist travelling through intersections at careless speeds, especially for a vehicle that has no protection.

I then got to thinking that we read about mc accidents in the paper and on tv etc, never really to know why these accidents happen.
All you hear is car vs Bike , or car vs truck etc someone made a mistake but know one except the police seems to know the real reason why these accidents happen.

If one person is killed in a aircraft accident there is a full investigation carried out with finding published, which all pilots are required read the findings, and learn from them. If a motorcyclist is hurt or killed it is just a few lines in the paper.

[Motu]

You can't talk about ''accidents'' here, so you'll learn nothing.

[haydes55]

Good on you from learning from other peoples mistakes. Thousands of crashes happen for each one that makes it onto youtube. So there's millions of other mistakes that lead to crashes that haven't been seen in youtube videos. So learn from others mistakes and keep your common sense switched on 24/7.

Shiny side up.

P.s. Those crash compilations are a good watch

[Hitcher]

Learn from your own mistakes, as well as those of others. In the right conditions, we're all capable of riding like a dickhead, so it never hurts to ask oneself "What would a Dickhead be doing right now?" and then doing something better.

[Grashopper]

I did notice the same thing. If there is an item on a news website, they will only give general information eg., car vs motorcycle or motorcyclist crashed/got hurt/died... I wonder if it has to do with a certain kind of mentality of a non-bike rider: "It's a motorcyclist. It's just dangerous. No wonder he/she crashed..."

On another note, I've also never seen a mention of 'motorcyclist got hurt/killed due to gravel that was left on the road surface after the roadworks had finished." Hm.... Ah well, as long as they mention, if the rider was wearing a helmet...

Anyway, it is one thing to grab a book on motorcycling and read the theory of the dos and don'ts, but it's a totally different, much more intense learning curve if you actually "see" what can really happen if you mess up. Preferably without experiencing it first hand yourself...

In one of the training courses I did, the instructor let us analyse a real life motorbike accident scenario before talking it through with us. I'll never forget what the kid did wrong.

That road safety video from the UK last year was also very sobering and I do remember it all the time coming to similar intersections.

[Winston001]

On another note, I've also never seen a mention of 'motorcyclist got hurt/killed due to gravel that was left on the road surface after the roadworks had finished." ....


Mmmm but no other road user blames loose gravel or other small matters when an accident occurs. We motorcyclists have to take the rough with the smooth.




I am not one to look at gruesome accident videos etc. Generally I choose not to look at these video clips on youtube etc.



If one person is killed in a aircraft accident there is a full investigation carried out with finding published, which all pilots are required read the findings, and learn from them. If a motorcyclist is hurt or killed it is just a few lines in the paper.
True but travel by air is still miraculous compared to travel on the ground and errors are fatal for everyone on board. By comparison bus crashes in our neck of the woods seldom even have one fatality.

[schrodingers cat]

Like the op, sometimes I watch these compilations and it is pretty rare that I think 'poor old motorcyclist got the rough end of the stick there'.

Give yourself room, give yourself time. Perhaps pray a lot.

[awayatc]

People don't learn from accidents. ......

otherwise very few people would have a brother or sister....

[Edbear]

Learn from your own mistakes, as well as those of others. In the right conditions, we're all capable of riding like a dickhead, so it never hurts to ask oneself "What would a Dickhead be doing right now?" and then doing something better.

That would make a great sig! :first:

[rocketman1]

You can't talk about ''accidents'' here, so you'll learn nothing.

Yes, Thats why some make the same fatal mistakes . Nobody learns.
I recently heard about a fatal accident that every one could learn from.
A rider was following a van close enough and to the side of the road that the car coming the other way and wanting to turn right ( ie across the road, behind the van), the car driver thought there was no vehicle following the van, and made a quick turn behind the van only to collect the bike.
This is an occurence I had never really thought about when riding, but unfortunately is a reality. I only found out about it because of the reporter described the accident in some detail.
This is not laying blame, it is advising others......... this poor rider did not survive . LEARN from it.

Oh so sorry we shouldnt talk about it. We shouldnt gain from others losses. RIP

[AllanB]

Jesus - just blame the government.

[Hitcher]

Yes, Thats why some make the same fatal mistakes . Nobody learns.

If one doesn't learn from one's fatal mistakes, one could have a problem.

[haydes55]

Yes, Thats why some make the same fatal mistakes . Nobody learns.
I recently heard about a fatal accident that every one could learn from.
A rider was following a van close enough and to the side of the road that the car coming the other way and wanting to turn right ( ie across the road, behind the van), the car driver thought there was no vehicle following the van, and made a quick turn behind the van only to collect the bike.
This is an occurence I had never really thought about when riding, but unfortunately is a reality. I only found out about it because of the reporter described the accident in some detail.
This is not laying blame, it is advising others......... this poor rider did not survive . LEARN from it.

Oh so sorry we shouldnt talk about it. We shouldnt gain from others losses. RIP


Actually site rules that we aren't allowed to talk about fatalities. But I think that refers more to posting an article about a fatality then speculating about it. There's always a chance that someone on this forum might know the deceased, or their friends/family might google the accident and find the thread. You've seen how accidents get 'analysed' on kb... It would be an offensive read if there were pages of keyboard warriors (myself included) blaming them for not avoiding the accident or causing the accident, even though we would barely know any facts.

There is definitely a lot to gain, learning from others mistakes. I think your anecdote is good. It doesn't use any specifics to identify the victim and it's a helpful lesson to learn.

I actually saw a scooter tailgating a van today and thought that exact scenario could easily happen. I saw the scoot a mile away because I saw her helmet. Average Joe isn't as obsessed by motorbikes and wouldn't have noticed.

[Motu]

But learning from others fatal mistakes could be of great benefit.

I hope that a bad or fatal mistake of mine would be discussed in great detail, I'm sure all could learn from it. Any family or friends offended or upset by the analysis obviously don't know enough about me to care.

[Berries]

Yes, Thats why some make the same fatal mistakes . Nobody learns.
I recently heard about a fatal accident that every one could learn from.
A rider was following a van close enough and to the side of the road that the car coming the other way and wanting to turn right ( ie across the road, behind the van), the car driver thought there was no vehicle following the van, and made a quick turn behind the van only to collect the bike.
This is an occurence I had never really thought about when riding, but unfortunately is a reality.
Is positioning not survival 101? This is no different to following a car that is turning left and being surprised that a car turning right pulls out in front of you. Too often we are quick to blame 'bloody cagers' for not following the rules and yet we fail to look at the bigger picture and see that something we did actually contributed to the crash taking place.

We are small, we are fast, we are hard to see. Allow for it.

[Grashopper]

But learning from others fatal mistakes could be of great benefit.

I hope that a bad or fatal mistake of mine would be discussed in great detail, I'm sure all could learn from it. Any family or friends offended or upset by the analysis obviously don't know enough about me to care.

Same here.

If analysing my mistakes makes people think twice before doing stupid things, then it was worth discussing it. My immediate family would think the same and who cares about the rest.

Aside of that, if my stupidity makes me crash than I don't deserve anything else. (Exceptions are planes falling out of the sky and landing on my bike, and spiders. I can't be held responsible for these kinds of higher powers.)

[Grashopper]

You don't even have to wait for an accident to happen in order to learn the likely outcome from certain driving/riding behaviour.

That's true. However, there is quite a bit of a difference between the theory and actually "seeing" what can happen.

It's a bit like smoking. Everybody knows you can get cancer from it, but you may not stop smoking until someone you know actually gets lung cancer.

I've seen people, who I think are fairly intelligent, ride at 100 km/h at a distance of less then 2 m behind a car to overtake as soon as it's clear. At that speed they won't even be able to react if something happens, not to mention be able to brake or swerve. They may be aware of that, in theory, but at that time it is not at the forefront of their minds. Everybody reading rocketman's post above may think twice about a move like that in the future. The actual cause of the accident may differ, but the scenario and the result are the same.

[Akzle]

It's a bit like smoking. Everybody knows you can get cancer from it, but you may not stop smoking until someone you know actually gets lung cancer.

more like burning diesel, the exhaust being a known carcinogen. Tobacco (natural), innt.

[Ulsterkiwi]

more like burning diesel, the exhaust being a known carcinogen. Tobacco (natural), innt.

natural? so is arsenic. Smoke that.

[Akzle]

natural? so is arsenic. Smoke that.

no the flavour is all off and it makes me dizzy.

[Ulsterkiwi]

no the flavour is all off and it makes me dizzy.

so you did try it then :shifty:

[bogan]

What you have just said sums up so many posters on here who have a "she'll be right attitude" as they have the ability to read "Signs" from other drivers and they have never got them wrong in the past and never will in the future.

The ability to read the signs on the road only increases the buffer; ie, rolling off the throttle and covering the brake when somebody may not have seen you. The inability or unwillingness to do one's best to be fully aware of the situation as they are riding in better characterises the 'she'll be right' attitude.

While the future is uncertain, those who do not learn from the past do tend to repeat it.

[bogan]

But if you don't apply a degree of trust in other drivers you are not going to get from a to b in much of a hurry at all. You will all the time be slowing down in case the next sign could very well be a negative one. Just give up riding if you are unable to trust anyone else on the road.

Some of us put our safety ahead of our ability to hurry from A to B.

Guess that is part of the reason some of us crash less than others.

[Katman]

But if you don't apply a degree of trust in other drivers you are not going to get from a to b in much of a hurry at all. You will all the time be slowing down in case the next sign could very well be a negative one. Just give up riding if you are unable to trust anyone else on the road.

I really do try very hard not to be part of the Cassina bashing brigade but.....

Your reluctance to try and gather any clues (or signs) of the intention of other road users is mind-numbingly stupid.

There are countless clues given by other road users that can be used to improve your safety and, contrary to what you seem to believe, they don't each take 30 seconds of concentration to identify and process.

You really should start using your brain a little more when you're riding - and relying less on trusting other road users to do as they're suppose to.

[mossy1200]

Not all cam owners are idiots but all idiots own cam recorders.

[buggerit]

But if everyone had your mind/clue reading ability sport there would be no accidents now would there? Just because you have that ability it does not mean everyone else has it too.

Have you bred?:shutup:

[ellipsis]

But if everyone had your mind/clue reading ability sport there would be no accidents now would there? Just because you have that ability it does not mean everyone else has it too.


...laalallallallallalalalal:brick:...lalalalala:br ick:...:crazy:

[Katman]

But if everyone had your mind/clue reading ability sport there would be no accidents now would there? Just because you have that ability it does not mean everyone else has it too.

That's why, over the years, I've made such an effort to expound the benefits of exercising one's brain while riding.

You should try it.

[caseye]

Geez KM, STOP, please, encouraging this thing ( ignored by everyone else in this thread too) it is going to end in tears!
Trust another road user? are you out of your fucking mind!
Never.
Look out for yourself, no wonder you keep crashing.

I have no problem with learning from other peoples mistakes.
I have a very real problem with watching videos of actual people getting killed,maimed or otherwise hurt in crashes.
There was a time when I used to watch the good old crash and burn videos. Until they started showing people getting killed.I stopped watching them after that. I for one have seen enough senseless death and destruction in my lifetime so far and yes it does desensitize those who do watch these sorts of things.

[Berries]

What you have just said sums up so many posters on here who have a "she'll be right attitude" as they have the ability to read "Signs" from other drivers and they have never got them wrong in the past and never will in the future.
The 'she'll be right attitude' is the one where people rely on other road users to do the right thing and I would suggest that you are quite possibly a prime example. Highlighting the fact that you don't believe other road users give off signs, other than indicators, also suggests something but it would be waste of electrons trying to explain it to you and your closed mind.

[caseye]

I bet you trust other motorists everyday but just don't realize it. Unless there is a crash barrier between you and traffic coming the other way you are trusting them and they are trusting you not to cross the centre line whether you like it or not. If there is a crash barrier the trust is shifted to the barrier is it not otherwise no roads would need barriers now would they?

Ah, Na!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Katman]

I bet you trust other motorists everyday but just don't realize it. Unless there is a crash barrier between you and traffic coming the other way you are trusting them and they are trusting you not to cross the centre line whether you like it or not. If there is a crash barrier the trust is shifted to the barrier is it not otherwise no roads would need barriers now would they?

When traffic is approaching me from the opposite direction I'm constantly scanning for any erratic driving amongst it.

It's called looking for clues.

And no, my entire attention is not focused solely on that approaching traffic. I have the ability to scan the side of the road on my side at the same time.

It's really not that hard - you just have to train yourself to do it.

You should try it.

[bogan]

shit can happen faster than you have time to brake so what good is your scanning then?

Can it!







10mfch

[Katman]

I would actually be too frightened to ride if I felt like you and shit can happen faster than you have time to brake so what good is your scanning then?

Do you really see no value in scanning your surroundings for hazards when you're riding?

:blink:

[rocketman1]

[QUOTE=Katman;1130826793]When traffic is approaching me from the opposite direction I'm constantly scanning for any erratic driving amongst it.

Yeah while we are on surviving, watch the car parked on the side of the road, Parked I say, nah probably waiting for a gap to do a U turn, straight in front of the motor bike they cannot see.?
Happened to me on the coro loop a few years ago, fortunately I was told by someone some time ago you dont watch the car move, you watch its front wheel, if the wheel turns or move, watch out, it is easier to see than the slight movement of the body of a car, in my case it did, which gave me the split second of a headsup chance to swing just wide of the u turning car at the last second.
I afterwards realised that advice may have saved my life. Yes some already know this but others dont, it what this thread is all about

Rocketman has now re-spread the word. Am I a preacher?. Who cares, If enough riders read this then, after all that have read this, then many years it may save one life, then thats enough for me. Makes me feel better.

[Murray]

I would actually be too frightened to ride if I felt like you and shit can happen faster than you have time to brake so what good is your scanning then?

We have heard it all before in a number of other threads!! You are still wrong. Hazard identification is a huge part of motorcycling!!!

[swbarnett]

But if everyone had your mind/clue reading ability sport there would be no accidents now would there? Just because you have that ability it does not mean everyone else has it too.
Perfect example of a fixed mindset.

Everyone with enough brain power to ride can develop this ability. It's not inherited.

[swbarnett]

shit can happen faster than you have time to brake
You have no idea just how fast a well trained sub-conscious brain can be.

[Winston001]

I've seen people, who I think are fairly intelligent, ride at 100 km/h at a distance of less then 2 m behind a car to overtake as soon as it's clear. At that speed they won't even be able to react if something happens, not to mention be able to brake or swerve.

Yes well said. Done that.

But its so damned easy to be looking 100m down the road while riding close on that back bumper. With 70bhp on your throttle you don't even register that the car might momentarily slow or change direction.

I shudder thinking about it.

[swbarnett]

I do it to a point but as I said if I took it as serious as you I would give up riding.
If you gave it a chance I think you'd find differently. I don't even know I'm doing it.


My view perhaps comes about due to the fact that in all the bad accidents I have been in which number about 4 in 35 years things happened too fast to even brake let alone have time to scan.
And if you'd been scanning you would've seen the situation developing earlier and more than likely been able to avoid it.

[Katman]

My view perhaps comes about due to the fact that in all the bad accidents I have been in which number about 4 in 35 years things happened too fast to even brake let alone have time to scan.

Then you should learn to scan better.

[Luckylegs]

But as I have said many times before if it was as easy as you guys make out there would be no crashes by anyone now would there? I came to grief the same way as you but now just ride the centre line to hopefully buy me more time if a parked car is on the side of the road idling. I could not see myself looking down to see the wheels turning while at the same time not causing a car following me to rear end me.

OMFG :gob:

When I think I cant be surprised by you anymore...

How does an action that doesnt even require your head to move make you do something that effects the vehicle behind you ?

[Katman]

I could not see myself looking down to see the wheels turning while at the same time not causing a car following me to rear end me.

You really should give up on motorcycling.

[Madness]

And motorcycle forums.

[Berries]

I am happy to enjoy the ride and i bet if I do ever come to grief it will not be as a result of a lack of scanning.
Fifth time lucky then?

[bogan]

I came to grief the same way as you but now just ride the centre line to hopefully buy me more time if a parked car is on the side of the road idling. I could not see myself looking down to see the wheels turning while at the same time not causing a car following me to rear end me.

What about cars on the other side of the road then? surely you are now closer to them. Oh, and the idea is to see the wheels, not see yourself seeing the wheels; the mirrors don't always line up like that.


I am happy to enjoy the ride and i bet if I do ever come to grief it will not be as a result of a lack of scanning.

Your post above puts lie to that as it shows that has already happened to you (and more than once).

[george formby]

It's ripped my nightie for quite some time that the powers that be and media use shock & horror in an effort to heighten road user awareness. Bollocks.
Education and positive reinforcement will trump deterrent every time.

I'm also wondering what my favourite self educated and dogmatic KB'er thinks about and looks at while riding. Certainly nothing to do with motorcycling judging by the posts in this thread.
Answers on a post card please.

[haydes55]

At least we can all learn from Cassina. She has taught me that even with all the information, some people will still ignore common sense and have crashes, no matter how bad anyone tries to help. She has taught me how to not act if I want to be safe. She has taught me how a stubborn attitude could cause myself harm.

So thank you cassina, I have learned from your posts... I've learned what I want to be the exact opposite of.

[swbarnett]

if it was as easy as you guys make out
No-one said it was easy. Just something worth developing. It becomes second nature once you do.

[Akzle]

I am happy to enjoy the ride and i bet if I do ever come to grief it will not be as a result of a lack of scanning.

scanning.... fine art!

[ruaphu]

But if you don't apply a degree of trust in other drivers..........

Sorry Cass I've read the thread, but having a degree of trust in other road users!? Really!?

Come on Cass, after so long on the road and four accidents you still hold onto that???

Crikey, even when i was learning to drive as a kid way back when, this point was hammered home to me.

Bottom line...... NEVER trust any road user at ANY time.

The fact is, you can rely on other road users to feck it up at YOUR expense at any time.

Failure to learn from any failure is a recipe for future failure.

Four accidents, trusting other road users and not learning to scan........... Another failure is going to occur............... Sooner or later.

The kb crew makes some good points on scanning your environment for YOUR safety, probably the best free advice you'll ever get. Hell i paid for that very advice taking rider courses when i returned to riding, it's saved my sorry R'se a number of times now.

Open ya mind and open ya eyes Cass before ya knock it eh.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Berries]

scanning.... fine art!
Scanning, not scamming.

[Akzle]

Scanning, not scamming.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scan%20fine%20art

[ellipsis]

...if you were caught trying to convince a block of cheese that it wasn't a jar of caviar, were told of the futility and then continued, the cheese has won...even though it is still a block of cheese...

[Katman]

You just don't get it do you that most other people don't have the scanning skills you claim either as I have said there would be no accidents "AT ALL" if they did now would there????????? I bet you travel at about 20-30 km/hr in order to ensure nothing is missed with your scanning because the faster you go the more you will miss!!!!

Stop being so fucking lazy.

Learn to concentrate on what you're doing.

That includes opening your eyes and taking in what is happening around you.

[swbarnett]

You just don't get it do you
I think the truth is the other way around.


most other people don't have the scanning skills you claim
This is absolutely true.

The thing is, contrary to what you're espousing, it's a skill that anyone that can ride a motorcycle can develop. Some, like yourself, choose not to. Others have yet to find out that it's possible (this is what good training is about).


I bet you travel at about 20-30 km/hr in order to ensure nothing is missed with your scanning
I don't know about KM but you obviously haven't seen me on an Auckland motorway in rush hour.


because the faster you go the more you will miss!!!!
Only to a point. You almost can't ride faster than your subconscious operates when well trained. I have been in situations where I was braking long before I even thought about doing so (consciously that is).

[T.W.R]

You just don't get it do you!!!!

:doh:http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=308675&d=1423119480

[Berries]

Just wow.

Given how many people drive and ride every day there are relatively few crashes and very very few deaths. Ever thought that you might be the odd one out? You certainly are on this forum.

[Katman]

Have you ever thought you may have a God or a Spirit controlling you on your bike as that would be the only way to explain why you are able to brake without being conscious of it.

Ah that's it.

I'm the second coming of Jesus.

[swbarnett]

If your scanning skills belief was as trustworthy as you think why do we not see in the media that all those that have died on the road
would be alive if they had "Scanning Skills"
Because the average motorist and the media "just don't get it" because they really can't be bothered putting in the effort it takes to develop them.


Have you ever thought you may have a God or a Spirit controlling you on your bike as that would be the only way to explain why you are able to brake without being conscious of it.
Call it what you will. It's definitely still fully within the cranium.

[Grashopper]

If your scanning skills belief was as trustworthy as you think why do we not see in the media that all those that have died on the road
would be alive if they had "Scanning Skills" Maybe you need to go public with your scanning skills panacea that will eliminate the road toll?

They did go public with it. It's called rider training. How long has it been since you have done one? Maybe it is time to freshen up your skills?

Why is the road toll so high? Because humans make mistakes, get distracted, or over confident, or are just too thick to think that they need any actual training. It also doesn't help that it is just too easy to get a motorbike license. Some theoretical questions and the Basic Handling Test and they let people on the road. And that must have been much worse in the past.

So, all of that doesn't help the statistics. Rider training does help. The question should actually be, how high would the road toll be, if it wasn't for training courses teaching riders, among many other things, to scan ahead, to try and expect what could happen?

[awayatc]

You have a false impression from rider training that it will give you 100 percent protection and that could very well be true in terms of situations a rider has 100% control over but for situations where other motorists and conditions come into it through actions they initiate that 100% protection is no longer the case as things can happen too fast for you to even brake. I suppose you will never believe it unless it happens to you like a few others on this site. Does your rider training make you aware of that because if they don't they are not telling you the full story.


Your mistake is your insistence that everybody is at least as thick and unskilled as you...

Those unfortunates who are, will (or already have) collect their Darwin award

As will you.....

unless you ride within your skill levels

but even then

mobility scooter riders are not exempt.........

[nzspokes]

You have a false impression from rider training that it will give you 100 percent protection and that could very well be true in terms of situations a rider has 100% control over but for situations where other motorists and conditions come into it through actions they initiate that 100% protection is no longer the case as things can happen too fast for you to even brake. I suppose you will never believe it unless it happens to you like a few others on this site. Does your rider training make you aware of that because if they don't they are not telling you the full story.

You seem to be of the belief that you can be 100% safe on a motorcycle. This is false. Motorcycle riding is done by people that are not risk adverse. But it is a learned skill. A skill that benefits a lot from training. One skill that is trained is scanning. I have done a training session where the trainer via headset has listed all the risks he could see on a straight road that had no other traffic on it. This highlighted to me how much I wasn't seeing. I now do this in my head as practice when riding, it also seems to help build concentration.

If you cannot concentrate on the job at hand when riding a motorcycle you are a serious risk to yourself and other road users. No trainer has ever told me that training they give will take away the danger of what we do. Failure to understand the basics of roadcraft and lack of ability to concentrate for extended periods of time will increase dramatically your risk.

You may find these UTube clips of use, even though not all laws etc are applicable to New Zealand you may get something from it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvsaN3Tc9c&list=PLq49az9efu7sa8YNx2cQhe_MUgTA9-hNH

[Grashopper]

You have a false impression from rider training that it will give you 100 percent protection and that could very well be true in terms of situations a rider has 100% control over but for situations where other motorists and conditions come into it through actions they initiate that 100% protection is no longer the case as things can happen too fast for you to even brake. I suppose you will never believe it unless it happens to you like a few others on this site. Does your rider training make you aware of that because if they don't they are not telling you the full story.

Actually, common sense tells me that.

Rider training is a way to increase my chances to stay alive and don't get hurt. If you want 100% safe you really should stay off the bike.

I don't really understand, why you're so adamant against any kind of rider training. When was the last course you've done?

[Mushu]

Maybe you should re-do your car driving license, part of it (when I did mine in NZ only about 6 or 7 years ago) was calling out potential hazards as you drive. I can see how some would find it difficult as plenty of those I have seen seem to just concentrate on what their speed is and what the car directly ahead of them is doing.

Cassina, I challenge you to find even one professional truck driver who agrees with your idea of hazard perception. It would be impossible to drive a heavy vehicle with no hazard perception skills, they dont stop or turn like a car or bike does.

[swbarnett]

Some theoretical questions and the Basic Handling Test and they let people on the road. And that must have been much worse in the past.
Walk in, give details, get learners license. That's all I did.

[swbarnett]

You have a false impression from rider training that it will give you 100 percent protection and that could very well be true in terms of situations a rider has 100% control over but for situations where other motorists and conditions come into it through actions they initiate that 100% protection is no longer the case as things can happen too fast for you to even brake.
If you have an accident - 99.99999% of the time you fucked up. The most important question after ANY accident, no matter how minor, is "what could I have done differently to prevent it?" This is why I've only ever had minor accidents. The answers to that question have helped give me the skills to stay rubber side down or at least turn what could have been a major into a minor.

[swbarnett]

If you want 100% safe you really should stay of the bike.
And out of a car, truck, bus, plane etc....

Actually there is only one time when anyone can be 100% safe - after you're dead.

[bluninja]

I do it to a point but as I said if I took it as serious as you I would give up riding. My view perhaps comes about due to the fact that in all the bad accidents I have been in which number about 4 in 35 years things happened too fast to even brake let alone have time to scan.

4 in 35 years and your perception is that "things happened too fast to even brake". To me this suggests that your are repeating the same failed approach to your riding and having the "same" accidents i.e. you've learned nothing. I have only had 2 in 36 years (but there's time and opportunity for more), all below the posted speed limit. The first was a whole series of failures, including putting myself in a dangerous position.....and not scanning far enough ahead to see the potential hazard that should have made me change my position to a safer one. The second was unavoidable, but my scanning of the vehicles around me gave me a clue that something was amiss, and allowed me to be on the brakes before 3 people appeared in my lane. As a result the idiot, I hit, just got a bruise on his cheek where I flipped him over the top of me with my head. I just had a sore neck.

I have been very fortunate in my motoring life that my impatience, impetuousness, and bad choices have not resulted in serious injury or damage (with the one exception) and allowed me to learn from them. Luck runs out, regularly practiced, good riding skills don't.

[swbarnett]

Motorcycle riding is done by people that are not risk adverse.
And people that are riding along in blissful ignorance of the dangers around them and their own potential to mitigate the risk.

[Edbear]

Some very sound advice here. I did a Defensive Driving Course back in '76 and it's stood me in good stead ever since. My only accident was judged by the SCU as a genuine accident with no blame on myself or my vehicle. Rather, I was complimented on being able to avoid any other vehicles.

I strongly endorse Karel Pavich of Pro Rider and others like her as being the best thing any rider could invest the small sum of money asked, in.

[FJRider]

If one doesn't learn from one's fatal mistakes, one could have a problem.

One does not learn from one's own fatal mistake ... :whistle:



Others ... just point and say "I would never be that stupid" ... :whistle:

[Katman]

No it is not me who thinks they can be 100% safe on a bike....

I don't recall anyone on here ever saying you can be 100% safe on a motorcycle.

Maybe your riding skills are matched only by your reading skills.

[nzspokes]

No it is not me who thinks they can be 100% safe on a bike but some one here who have done rider training
or who claim to have mind reading ability or scanning skills or whatever other power they claim to have that has made them become crash proof irrespective of whether they or another motorist screws up. I remember another poster on here last year saying that the reason why rider training is not compulsory is because it creates an overconfidence in ability in some riders which I believe is what many on here who have debated with me have as none of them has struck a situation where shit has happened to quick to even brake and they have it in their minds I am at fault for not having their scanning ability which in the case of the dog I hit would require me for example to be able to look over a fence and up a driveway before reaching the driveway and as for the head on collision I was in coming off a one way bridge, for that to be avoidable by me I would have to have senses before even getting on to the bridge that a guy was going to come around the bend on the other side of it with the belief it was a two way bridge. I have posted these actual accident examples on here before and no one has said that rider training would have taught me how to avoid either other than it would never happen to them as they can scan and mind read both the thinking of drivers and dogs they can't see. And you think I am the over confident one eh????

Rider training will become more necessary with changes in rider licencing is my understanding.

You hit a dog head on? Considering your average mutt would be about 300mm wide head on thats a good effort. Shame you could use some of the other 2 odd meters of road lane to go past it.

[Katman]

You hit a dog head on?

Your reading skills are clearly on a par with hers.

[Luckylegs]

Rider training will become more necessary with changes in rider licencing is my understanding.

You hit a dog head on? Considering your average mutt would be about 300mm wide head on thats a good effort. Shame you could use some of the other 2 odd meters of road lane to go past it.

Thats the problem with arguing continually with someobe like cassina. At some point you get lazy, say something dumb and look like the knob!

Re-read the quote

[nzspokes]

If you read my post again I said it was a "car" that hit me head on. If a dog runs out of a driveway the hit is "side on" unless that driveway is at the end of a cul-de-sac

How big was the dog?

[Mom]

No it is not me who thinks they can be 100% safe on a bike but some one here who have done rider training
or who claim to have mind reading ability or scanning skills or whatever other power they claim to have that has made them become crash proof irrespective of whether they or another motorist screws up. I remember another poster on here last year saying that the reason why rider training is not compulsory is because it creates an overconfidence in ability in some riders which I believe is what many on here who have debated with me have as none of them has struck a situation where shit has happened to quick to even brake and they have it in their minds I am at fault for not having their scanning ability which in the case of the dog I hit would require me for example to be able to look over a fence and up a driveway before reaching the driveway and as for the head on collision I was in coming off a one way bridge, for that to be avoidable by me I would have to have senses before even getting on to the bridge that a guy was going to come around the bend on the other side of it with the belief it was a two way bridge. I have posted these actual accident examples on here before and no one has said that rider training would have taught me how to avoid either other than it would never happen to them as they can scan and mind read both the thinking of drivers and dogs they can't see. And you think I am the over confident one eh????

Jesus! Do you ever stop to take a breath? I have tried a couple of times to read this dribble. Impossible.

[nzspokes]

Your reading skills are clearly on a par with hers.

Fair call. But that was one hell of a sentence to try to get through at this hour of the day after only one coffee.

[Luckylegs]

Hope you can handle riding better than my sentences then!!

Of course he can. There's training for riding. No-one from kindy to uni prepares you for dealing with nutters like you!!!

[nzspokes]

Hope you can handle riding better than my sentences then!!

How big was the dog?

[awayatc]

No it is not me who thinks they can be 100% safe on a bike but some one here who have done rider training
or who claim to have mind reading ability or scanning skills or whatever other power they claim to have that has made them become crash proof irrespective of whether they or another motorist screws up. I remember another poster on here last year saying that the reason why rider training is not compulsory is because it creates an overconfidence in ability in some riders which I believe is what many on here who have debated with me have as none of them has struck a situation where shit has happened to quick to even brake and they have it in their minds I am at fault for not having their scanning ability which in the case of the dog I hit would require me for example to be able to look over a fence and up a driveway before reaching the driveway and as for the head on collision I was in coming off a one way bridge, for that to be avoidable by me I would have to have senses before even getting on to the bridge that a guy was going to come around the bend on the other side of it with the belief it was a two way bridge. I have posted these actual accident examples on here before and no one has said that rider training would have taught me how to avoid either other than it would never happen to them as they can scan and mind read both the thinking of drivers and dogs they can't see. And you think I am the over confident one eh????

you can make money offering your services to isis....

Your drivel is pure fuckin torture

getting one's head cut off after having had to endure your ranting would be a mercifull relief


you are a living reminder of how gratefull I am to have gotten my divorce of somebody who started to sound just a little bit like you....

[swbarnett]

there are some on here that say over and over again "Everything is" irrespective of which party screws up.
I think not. KM seems to have at time implied this at times but I don't think even he believes that EVERYTHING is avoidable. We're just saying that if you put your faith in other drivers even slightly then you vastly increase the number that, for you, are "unavoidable".

[swbarnett]

... which in the case of the dog I hit would require me for example to be able to look over a fence and up a driveway before reaching the driveway
It's not about knowing the dog is going to come out before they do. It's about being ready on the off-chance. Braking is not the only tool you have in this situation either. I've avoided dogs in this exact situation by a combination of lean and acceleration.

I have been hit by a pedestrian while cornering through the lights in the Auckland CBD. There was a crowd of people on the kerb waiting for their turn. Just before I was hit I saw in my peripheral vision this idiot come out of the crowd at a dead run. Because I spotted them a split second before impact I was ready for it and stayed upright. Since then I keep a much wider line in this situation. My "scanning" tells me that there is somewhere I can't see so I keep as far away from it as possible.

The thing is that I didn't know I'd seen them when they hit. The memory only came to me afterwards. It was my sub-conscious that had seen them and set my body and bike up to take the impact.

It's the same for world-class cricketers. It takes the average athlete about two thirds of a second to react consciously to anything. It takes about a third of a second for a cricket ball to travel the length of the pitch. How the hell do you think batters actually connect with the ball? Unlike you, they've developed their "scanning skills". They see how the ball leaves the bowlers hand and their subconscious mind does the calculations thousands of times faster than the conscious ever could.

[bluninja]

SNIP ...I am at fault for not having their scanning ability which in the case of the dog I hit would require me for example to be able to look over a fence and up a driveway before reaching the driveway.....

So how big was the dog, that you had an accident when colliding with it? I once hit a fox; saw it's eyes in the headlights between 2 parked cars and assumed it would run in front of me at the worst possible moment so covered the brake. At 2-3 metres away it launched, the brakes were applied and then front released as it crossed in front of the wheel and I was about to hit. The front wheel broke it's neck and bounced it out of the way and I came to a controlled stop, went back and picked up my road kill and took it home for some lovely fox stew. :innocent: OK so I didn't have fox stew :facepalm: I don't count the collision with the fox as an RTA in the same way I don't count bird strike of big bug splats on the visor.....now they ARE unavoidable!

An open driveway....hmmm...potential hazard...kids, dogs, cats, balls suddenly flying out. Take a road position to see into the driveway as early as possible (if there's a fence or wall blocking your view) and adjust your speed accordingly. Scanning ahead and increasing your awareness of potential hazards mitigates the chances of things catching you unawares, and gives you more time and more options to avoid or reduce the effect of any collision (if there is one). I agree some things cannot be FULLY anticipated and that some collisions will happen. That doesn't mean people should then not seek to improve their chances of avoiding incidents that could be avoided, or mitigate damage in those that aren't.

[Maha]

Hope you can handle riding better than my sentences then!!

You should get together with Juniper and write thy memoirs, she hates driveways and fucking dogs, well not actually fucking dogs as such, just the ones that make you bruise your bike a tad.

[James Deuce]

Hey, look she misquoted me AGAIN! And missed the point.

I said that a series of previous National Traffic Superintendents followed the company line publicly that advanced driver or rider training was frowned upon because it made people have accidents at higher speeds.

I thought that was utter stupidity and it has now carried over into actual policy in that we are now being expected to cater for the incompetent drivers and take responsibility for their mistakes. "Slow down, other people refuse to take responsibility for their incompetence."

I believe that worthwhile training will install better skills and attitude. The attitude bit is MORE important than the skills bit. A good attitude will prevent the need to use the skills in anger. But the skills are needed for a variety of reasons, not all of them apparent in "normal" riding.

The only thing I've learned about accidents is that if you have one and admit that you contributed to it by letting your ego run amok, the judge, juries and executioners here will immediately expel you from the cabal. People wank on in that depression thread but when confronted by an actual injury causing a couple of debilitating mental health and cognition issues, most "good bastard/bitch" motorcyclists run a fucking mile. That's what I've learned.

[bogan]

When what I say becomes over your head or unpalatable from your in ground perceptions it is easier to switch off eh!!!

At least he can reach his own off switch you flabby sack of shit.

[ellipsis]

When what I say becomes over your head or unpalatable from your in ground perceptions it is easier to switch off eh!!!



.......................
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0doSWS0Fj24?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

...

[unstuck]

I hit a stoat once on my T500, fucker could have killed me.:eek:

[bluninja]

I hit a stoat once on my T500, fucker could have killed me.:eek:

Vicious those stoats! they can jump high too.....quite viscous once you've hit them with a vehicle :Punk:

[unstuck]

Vicious those stoats! they can jump high too.....quite viscous once you've hit them with a vehicle :Punk:

That bastards jumping days are over, those old titans were heavy buggers.:msn-wink:
Nearly hit a horse once too, but when I opened my eyes I had gone round it.:laugh:

[bluninja]

That is just stupid to suggest I should be looking up driveways and it would have to be every driveway not knowing who were dog owners in a street because if I did that I would very likely end up rear ending the car in front. As for your fox story you did see it before it pounched towards you but I did not see the dog before it started running so there is no comparison between your hit and mine.


Why are you so close to the car in front that you would rear end it if you glance at a driveway at the side? I saw the fox because I was looking for cats that tend to sit under cars and dart out at the last moment, I wasn't actually expecting to see a fox.

As for looking up driveways; here's some tips.

1) If the driveway has the gates closed then it is unlikely that anything can suddenly emerge into your path.
2) If you can view the driveway by looking ahead with a wide viewpoint before you get to it, you don't need to look down it.
3) If the driveway is open then adopt a position that gives you an early view into the drive and keeps you away from any unseen hazard. Be prepared to stop or manoeuvre suddenly. I'd also recommend that you adjust your position with regard to vehicles you are following, or coming towards you in case something comes out the drive in front of them and they suddenly stop or swerve.


BTW immediately after a 2 day advanced training course I tried to add this skill/technique to my riding and it made my riding less safe and did my head in as I was trying to implement all I'd learnt at once. I had to prioritise the skills and practice them one by one and then habituate them within my riding so that they become automatic. When something becomes habituated it takes less conscious effort (less tiring) and is quicker than processing it consciously.

[Katman]

When I couriered in London we did 12 hour days.

The level of concentration required had me coming home during the first couple of weeks totally shattered mentally.

After that, the concentration became second nature and required very little effort.

It's just a matter of training yourself to focus at that level.

It would appear Cassina hasn't got that ability. (Or the desire to even consider trying).

[Grashopper]

You said what you were taught made you feel unsafe which does not sound like the sort of riding school I would want to go to.

If I've learned anything from your posts in several threads then that you are totally against any kind of riding training. Now the question is, have you actually ever been to any kind of riding school or is everything you say just based on what you hear from other people and misinterpreting that to try and justify to yourself that you don't need any training?

[Tazz]

That is just stupid to suggest I should be looking up driveways and it would have to be every driveway not knowing who were dog owners in a street because if I did that I would very likely end up rear ending the car in front. As for your fox story you did see it before it pounched towards you but I did not see the dog before it started running so there is no comparison between your hit and mine.

It's hard if you're thick. You just stick to the simple stuff please.

And comparing driving across miles of remote sub zero temp roads plus frozen lakes in Canada and Alaska to driving in a Christchurch winter....


http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS04yXL_az0j4aKP6tr5NuXDPv_0bImu 9X5rKsXYc-dEJJEW9eu

[Katman]

I was offered a job as a courier rider once too but turned it down

Good call. I doubt you'd have lasted a week.

[Tazz]

You read wrong I agree with rider training but it is no panacea like you guys think. It was not around in when I was learning in the late 70s so I ended up learning from experience. That can be a teacher too did you know?

So tell me, is it better to recklessly cut your own finger off on a table saw, or learn from the experience of someone else and keep all your fingers :laugh:

Actually.....how high can you count on your own fingers? Might explain a few things. You're full of new levels of surprise.

[Luckylegs]

You read wrong I agree with rider training but it is no panacea like you guys think. It was not around in when I was learning in the late 70s so I ended up learning from experience. That can be a teacher too did you know?

So you reckon youve learnt enough through experience that training would not be of benefit?

[FJRider]

Good call. I doubt you'd have lived a week.


There ... fixed it for you ..

[nzspokes]

That can be a teacher too did you know?

Experience is a cruel teacher, she gives you the examination before the lesson.

[FJRider]

Experience is a cruel teacher, she gives you the examination before the lesson.

Punishment IS the lesson ...

[swbarnett]

That is just stupid to suggest I should be looking up driveways and it would have to be every driveway not knowing who were dog owners in a street because if I did that I would very likely end up rear ending the car in front.
Grab a dictionary and look up "Peripheral Vision". Learn to use it!

[swbarnett]

Good call. I doubt you'd have lasted a week.
Or he would've learned the hard way.

Either way, if he'd taken up the offer we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[FJRider]

I hit a stoat once on my T500, fucker could have killed me.:eek:

I've had plenty of "Issues" with 'Possums ... their heads don't crush under the front wheel and usually just roll off it to the side ... :eek:

[unstuck]

I've had plenty of "Issues" with 'Possums ... their heads don't crush under the front wheel and usually just roll off it to the side ... :eek:

Yeah, them and hares seem to have hard heads.:ride:

[FJRider]

Grab a dictionary and look up "Peripheral Vision". Learn to use it!

A lack of Peripheral vision ... might mean Tunnel vision is the issue.

[bluninja]

I only had one accident when I was learning that I could put down to inexperience and that was coming off when stopping for lights on the downhill of a bridge on a wet day and I possibly either gave it too much front brake or did not watch for painted lines. I know I would have been taught to watch out for painted lines in a riding school but like I said they were not around in the late 70s.

Is this included in the 4 accidents?? Did the traffic lights come out of nowhere so fast you didn't have time to brake ?

[FJRider]

I only had one accident when I was learning ...

If you have already stopped Learning ... there really is no hope for you. More accidents are then a certainty ...


Good luck with that.

[bluninja]

SNIP......
BTW immediately after a 2 day advanced training course I tried to add this skill/technique to my riding and it made my riding less safe and did my head in as I was trying to implement all I'd learnt at once. I had to prioritise the skills and practice them one by one and then habituate them within my riding so that they become automatic. When something becomes habituated it takes less conscious effort (less tiring) and is quicker than processing it consciously.

Here's what I typed... and your misinterpretation below


SNIP
You said what you were taught made you feel unsafe which does not sound like the sort of riding school I would want to go to. Now you follow their instructions automatically whose to say in theory you are any less unsafe?

At no point did I say what I was taught made me feel unsafe. It was my attempt to implement a whole series of techniques into my existing riding style, in one hit, that made my riding less safe. I recognised this, and embedded the new skills and techniques over a longer period of time. The instructor at Shire Training Services died of a stroke having never had an RTA on a motorbike. I'd take his training and advice over yours any day.

My riding techniques and skills are habituated so that I no longer need to consciously think about them. That is completely different to your assertion that I follow their instructions (based on UK Police Roadcraft) automatically.

Two questions: Was there no Star Rider scheme in NZ in the 70's (which would have had you riding more than 34 years since you say it's continuous riding) for you to learn. Why do you presume that all current rider training is aimed at going faster on the track?

[FJRider]

Why do you presume that all current rider training is aimed at going faster on the track?

I have always believed Rider training is intended to save your life ... not save your time.

[nzspokes]

I have always believed Rider training is intended to save your life ... not save your time.

I do regular track training. Speed is not spoken of, in fact we have to tape up our speedos. And no timing is allowed.

What is spoken about is good lines. Good braking. Looking through turns. Good gear changing. Never speed. Main word used is smooth.

[nzspokes]

Is this included in the 4 accidents?? Did the traffic lights come out of nowhere so fast you didn't have time to brake ?

Back in the 70s the fuckers just jumped up like bamboo. :laugh:

Really, 4 crashes? Maybe time to give up then.

[Katman]

Two questions: Was there no Star Rider scheme in NZ in the 70's (which would have had you riding more than 34 years since you say it's continuous riding) for you to learn. Why do you presume that all current rider training is aimed at going faster on the track?

I did the Apple Riding Course back in 1982 so there was that sort of scheme available if you looked for it. ( Not sure what year Apple started though).

Just checked - they started in 1973. (Don't know what year they started offering the riding course though).

[samgab]

Thankfully, due to the "ignore" setting, I'm spared a lot of what I've concluded, based on the replies, is some fairly tedious reading in this thread from a certain user who seems unsafe to be on public roads...
However, I think it all comes down to two key words:
"Situational Awareness".
2-wheeled riders need to have it!

We should be aware of everything that is going on around us at all times. Potential hazards, pedestrians, kids, parked cars, driveways, potholes, ice, oil patches, gravel, metal covers, road paint, oncoming vehicles, vehicles at intersections, other vehicles going the same direction that might accelerate, swerve, or brake unexpectedly, the list is endless. It can all be seen and prepared for by experienced and skillful riders. I always anticipate the possibility of every other road user making the wrong move, making the wrong choice, pulling out in front of me or cutting me off. Then I'm prepared with an escape plan when it inevitably does happen. When you get used to doing that all the time, it becomes second nature, as indicated by other commenters here.

Still, mistakes can happen, but they're less likely when riding with a healthy pessimistic view of other road users skills, attitudes, and abilities.

I only ride a scooter at the moment, because it's an incredibly cheap way to commute, but I've been riding various motorbikes, farm bikes, and trail bikes for 27 years, and I've only had one minor crash where I was the rider, when I was a young over-confident schoolboy, on my way home from school, turned into my home street, and road workers had poured some fresh gravel onto the street where I live during the day. A road I thought I knew the surface of well, gave me false confidence, my front wheel slid out and I slid off to the side of the road, not hitting anything, fortunately. But I learnt my lesson, and now as well as all the other things I need to be aware of, I'm very conscious of road surface condition, even on roads I think I know well.

[unstuck]

However, I think it all comes down to two key words:
"Situational Awareness".
ALL ROAD USERS need to have it!



Well put, but changed that one bit for you.:2thumbsup

[ruaphu]

it all comes down to two key words:
"Situational Awareness".
2-wheeled riders need to have it!

, .

BINGO,!..........................give that man a beer


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[T.W.R]

"Situational Awareness".
2-wheeled riders need to have it!

UNstuck made the right adjustment for you.......ALL ROAD USERS :msn-wink:


We should be aware of everything that is going on around us at all times. Potential hazards, pedestrians, kids, parked cars, driveways, potholes, ice, oil patches, gravel, metal covers, road paint, oncoming vehicles, vehicles at intersections, other vehicles going the same direction that might accelerate, swerve, or brake unexpectedly, the list is endless. It can all be seen and prepared for by experienced and skillful riders. When you get used to doing that all the time, it becomes second nature, as indicated by other commenters here.



Unfortunately you've only covered the visual side; as you say in the last line of the 1st sentence "the list is endless" but your list is weighted against the urban environment. Outside the city limits there are many more factors that can influence things which other senses can identify before sight picks them up (can happen in the urban enviroment but to a lesser extent).
Time in the saddle creates the 2nd nature; it's a 6th sense that never stops developing, the day it does you're in trouble.

[eldog]

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/108062-Wet-tar-shiny-tar-sticky-tar

Like ice, black ice, diesel, tar bleed can sneak up on you, especially on dark country roads.

Don't assume the road surface is the same all the way around a corner

long periods for hot weather followed by light rain will reduce tyre grip significantly (hot weather, will make it rise to the surface and be slippery too) - like ice, mid corner, big patches.
See if there is some skid training available an practise so you know what to do instinctively.
I tried to remember what I had read in a book 4 months earlier. I didnt do too bad when I look back now.

get off your bike and walk on it - see how little traction there is.

I learnt from my accident, hope others will learn from my experience.

Riding its YOUR responsibility.

[FJRider]

... A road I thought I knew the surface of well, gave me false confidence, my front wheel slid out and I slid off to the side of the road, not hitting anything, fortunately. But I learnt my lesson, and now as well as all the other things I need to be aware of, I'm very conscious of road surface condition, even on roads I think I know well.

Assumptions are the Mother of all fuck-ups ... my favorite three.

Assumption 1. The road you are riding has not changed since you last rode it ...

Assumption 2. All other road users WILL be operating their vehicle in accordance with ALL Traffic Legislation. Even if YOU are not.

Assumption 3. If you cannot see any other traffic on the road ... there wont be.


Murphys Law can (and will) apply at any time .. usually at the worst possible time.


Feel free to add assumptions of your own ...

[unstuck]

Feel free to add assumptions of your own ...

All coppers are bastards.:devil2:

[eldog]

Assumptions are the Mother of all fuck-ups ... my favorite three.

Assumption 1. The road you are riding has not changed since you last rode it ...

Assumption 2. All other road users WILL be operating their vehicle in accordance with ALL Traffic Legislation. Even if YOU are not.

Assumption 3. If you cannot see any other traffic on the road ... there wont be.


Murphys Law can (and will) apply at any time .. usually at the worst possible time.


Feel free to add assumptions of your own ...

Assumption 4. The same road conditions that exist at the start of a corner, exist midway and at the end of corner. - Scan as far ahead as possible.

[samgab]

...Like ice, black ice, diesel, tar bleed can sneak up on you, especially on dark country roads.

Don't assume the road surface is the same all the way around a corner....

I had an experience with black ice, which again taught me a valuable lesson in my younger motorcycling days. I was a pillion on a BMW R1100RT, travelling from Palmerston North to Auckland one winter evening. On the desert road, we hit a patch of black ice mid-bend, and both front and rear wheels simultaneously started sliding to the outside of the corner, and the embankment. Fortunately, the rider was skilled enough to keep the bike shiny side up and there was no off. But it was much colder than expected, so we stopped in Taupo that night and continued on the next day.

So I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

[unstuck]

I had an experience with black ice, which again taught me a valuable lesson in my younger motorcycling days. I was a pillion on a BMW R1100RT, travelling from Palmerston North to Auckland one winter evening. On the desert road, we hit a patch of black ice mid-bend, and both front and rear wheels simultaneously started sliding to the outside of the corner, and the embankment. Fortunately, the rider was skilled enough to keep the bike shiny side up and there was no off. But it was much colder than expected, so we stopped in Taupo that night and continued on the next day.

So I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

Living down here you learn to factor in black ice very quickly, or you get schooled hard.
Agree with the off road riding comment too.:niceone:

[awayatc]

All coppers are bastards.:devil2:

Assumptions where asked for.....

assumptions...

not facts....:pinch:

[unstuck]

Assumptions where asked for.....

assumptions...

not facts....:pinch:

:devil2: I have had the pleasure of dealing with some who were real good bastards, and could have made my life a lot harder than I would have liked.
So I will stand by my earlier statement.
If you go into a situation assuming someone is going to be an asshole, then you are rarely disappointed. :msn-wink:

[eldog]

I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

I think if I had had some off road riding experience it would have helped.ie training in a safe environment.
I now scan much more than I did, and much further ahead.
Tyres and tyre pressures extremely important.
knowing what to do instinctively would have been great too.
my tar bleed patch was approx. 2m wide x 12+ m long 1/2 way round a corner
enough time for the rear to slide around about a 1metre, tank slapper then a high side.
its been fixed now.

so having my accident, taught me a lot about those things.
If I had been scanning would have avoided them all, but I didn't know about wet tar bleed till then.

and yes I found that most people thought I was "look at me" when I talked about it, esp other 'good' bikers
when I was really thinking I had been doing all the right stuff and I till got caught out.
They turned their back on me.
its not till now that I realise that to them thats what it seemed-skyting (my dad and another rider pointed it out)

I wear ATGATT-boring but it protected me and now I am back on a bike ;)

I want other people to know what to look for and what they can do to be prepared.

[swbarnett]

I would say it would be the size of the patch of ice that saved the bike rather than rider skills
Yes and no. The larger the patch the more skill is required to stay upright until grip returns. And also the skill to prevent a high-side.

[bluninja]

So by your thinking then guys who ride on icy frozen lakes need spiked tyres because they are not skilled to stay upright otherwise? I have come off on ice myself and things can happen as quick as a fast running dog. You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck. If however it was a case of hitting a patch of gravel having off road experience/skill would assist.

So traffic lights, ice, a dog and a head on...is that all your accidents now? So just like the car, the dog, and the traffic lights, the ice came at you so fast you had no time to brake? :banana:

As for skill versus luck on ice....watch this vid of a bike actually racing on ice with no spikes....warm up starts at 2:15 race at 4:30
http://youtu.be/Kf2-Uw9LQEk

[swbarnett]

So by your thinking then guys who ride on icy frozen lakes need spiked tyres because they are not skilled to stay upright otherwise?
Way to read between the lines and get it completely wrong. Ice riding and sliding over a patch of black ice are two totally different things.

Besides, the ice riders don't "need" spikes per se. They just make the job a lot easier. Riding on ice without them (which can be done) they would tire very quickly.


I have come off on ice myself and things can happen as quick as a fast running dog. You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck.
I came off on ice on my bicycle (in Europe in mid winter on a forestry road i.e. ice all over the road). I had been riding along successfully (and by no means slowly) for quite some time until I got distracted and over-balanced. Lesson learned. Once I got back on I continued riding, still on ice, and made it home without further incident. All on standard MTB tyres - no spikes!

[eldog]

Yes and no. The larger the patch the more skill is required to stay upright until grip returns. And also the skill to prevent a high-side.

a high side was something I hadn't expected, specially after the tankslapper had been getting less, I thought it would die away which it was doing.....

I think my brain shut off the memory of the initial part of the highside (Blank), it was so fast.
Michelin PR3, in case someone was wondering.

I plan to do some training to be able to avoid these situations and if necessary what actions to take when they happen - (instinctively)

I only have minimum experience off road/gravel 30 k, which I have done after my little effort.
This has helped me RELAX a lot more, on the road, even my car driving has improved.

Ice/gravel riding - everyone should do some

[swbarnett]

As for skill versus luck on ice....watch this vid of a bike actually racing on ice with no spikes....
I stand corrected. Seems it's not that hard after all - at least for those with the skills.

[swbarnett]

a high side was something I hadn't expected,
There's probably a better way but the one and only time I've come close to high-siding I prevented it by turning my outer leg and the bike into a tripod (and the same on the other side after the rebound). No damage done except that my knees were saw for a week afterwards.

And for the cassina's sake I didn't think about what I was doing at all - it was all instinctual.

[Kickaha]

You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck.
It is quite common to mistake skill for luck

[samgab]

I stand corrected. Seems it's not that hard after all - at least for those with the skills.

The tricky part is when a road surface / grip level changes quickly, as it can - and frequently does - do on our public roads.

If you have certain level of grip on good tarmac, and you're riding well within that grip level, and then the tyres encounter a patch with vastly reduced traction: paint, metal, ice, gravel, oil, water... that's where it's really easy to come unstuck; and where one has to be really alert to detect those changes by observing the road surface all the time while riding (situational awareness).

Riding along on a constantly slippery surface - gravel road, fully iced road, mud track - isn't quite so bad because you've got a constant expected level of grip and you get used to it. Speedway dirt track motorcycle racing is another good example of this. The whole race is virtually one big powerslide on a very low traction surface but if it went tarmac, ice, dirt, tarmac, dry, wet, gravel; it would be much harder.

Here's a great example I saw a little while ago. It's the Dakar Rally, and there's a water splash. Almost all of the motorcycle riders fall off in the same place. They're all skilled riders, they know what they're doing, they've all completed hundreds of Kms without falling off, but they all, one after another, fall off in this same spot. Yes, because it's slippery, but even more so because the grip level changes so quickly at that point that it catches almost all of these expert riders out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tignwpvWbqA

[FJRider]

... I plan to do some training to be able to avoid these situations and if necessary what actions to take when they happen - (instinctively)



I'm curious ... where do you plan on getting training for such .. ???

[eldog]

I'm curious ... where do you plan on getting training for such .. ???

Good question

Training for changes in road conditions - will be mostly my own observations, by doing various types of riding. Highway, secondary roads, local roads, gravel roads I different types of weather conditions.

I am not just a dry weather Auckland rider....

Currently have limited experience - so need to do more

slides-mostly from gravel being able to relax is key (I think) so I know what to expect from the bike, what works and what doesn't.
tankslapper-i learnt from my own experience but wiling to listen to others
highsides - something I don't really wish to repeat, but learning to (try to) avoid doing what triggers a high side is my goal

in my case being relaxed and not wrenching the bike around, being smooth (I tried to be and with the throttle, maybe i could have powered out of the slide, but I am naturally cautious.

Other biking skills - from getting instructions from more advanced (skilled riders) - paid training

getting my slow speed skills up to a higher level (they are crap at the moment-need practise)

might not answer you question - but am willing to try (I am time limited at present)

[FJRider]

You should see if they will allow you to go for a ride around Snowfarm Cardrona Valley in the middle of Winter as they have a dedicated snow and ice track like in the movie for vehicle testing. You would be cheating if you took an old trail bike like they rode in the movie though as dropping them would not be very expensive repair wise.

Have you seen what they charge for that privilege ... ??? And HIS location .. ??


Easier to practice on a (wet) grass paddock riding an old (or somebody else's) bike ...

[eldog]

I have never had a tank slapper fall so I must be doing something right despite what others think.

I didn't fall due to a tankslapper, that was diminishing and was about 50% of what it started with.
I felt I was going to stay upright and survive
The sudden traction of the rear caused the highside->fall.

FYI - got the bike up and rode home all 260 kg of it. (I had some help, but not with the riding)

[ellipsis]

I would imagine there would be a cost but not sure if it would be more or less that what they charge for a track day that some on here go to. !


...there you go again...assuming your reply to be correct...much like the other assumptions on your posts...but you're wrong again...thick is boring, like you...

[FJRider]

... The fact you say it's best done on old bike proves risking a good bike on icy roads is dumb eh!

To practice (and possibly crashing) on your own road bike is not a good idea.

There is a big difference between riding on roads with the possibility of hitting black ice ... and riding on ice roads.

[unstuck]

Maybe someone could post a video of where a tank slapped happens. I could only see something like that happening in an off-road situation where you are riding through multiple deep ruts or thick gravel.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LZ1srcQMa_0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>:devil2::devil2:

[eldog]

tanklapper video:devil2::devil2:

my tankslapper, I have never seen my arms move so fast, seemed like 10 times a second the bars twisted from one side of the bike to the other. Got down to maybe 1-2 times.....

My vision focussed souly on the bars and the throttle - trying to keep it steady/constant

It was better than the highside:weird:

[FJRider]

Maybe someone could post a video of where a tank slapped happens. I could only see something like that happening in an off-road situation where you are riding through multiple deep ruts or thick gravel.

:killingme

[bogan]

While that was a race it did look like as he was not cornering hard over it was a mechanical problem with the bike or a loss of pressure in the front tire and not being anything to do with a lack of riding skills. All of my bikes have been brand new plus I have never had a front tyre blow out or loose pressure which would explain why I have never had one.

Nothing to do with loss of tyre pressure, and it doesn't often happen while cornering hard; it is when the front end gets light coming out of a corner.

You've probably never had one cos your front end is anything but light.

[unstuck]

While that was a race it did look like as he was not cornering hard over it was a mechanical problem with the bike or a loss of pressure in the front tire and not being anything to do with a lack of riding skills. All of my bikes have been brand new plus I have never had a front tyre blow out or loose pressure which would explain why I have never had one.

Can happen for all sorts of reasons, not just mechanical. But when it does, you better hope you can relax in a hurry cos if you fight it, it's gonna hurt.:devil2:

[FJRider]

While that was a race it did look like as he was not cornering hard over it was a mechanical problem with the bike or a loss of pressure in the front tire and not being anything to do with a lack of riding skills. All of my bikes have been brand new plus I have never had a front tyre blow out or loose pressure which would explain why I have never had one.

Take a peek at this.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LmHU-gtlOKo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And quoting embedded images and vids is frowned on by the Mod's ... expect a PM from Gremlin ...

[bogan]

What is your analysis of what he did wrong

Well, his main mistake was falling off.

Hey, you two have something in common!

[Luckylegs]

So he was attempting to wheel stand out of the corner then which I have actually seen some racers do successfully but maybe they wait until the rear wheel is fully straightened up coming out of the corner eh.
What is your analysis of what he did wrong or do you think he should not try being a show off because that's the reason why they do it on race tracks and maybe the road too in that situation.

Oh dear! Really? You'd been doing so well too. Do you understand what causes a front wheel to come off the ground? (There's more but we'll wait to see where your level of understanding is first)

[Kickaha]

So he was attempting to wheel stand out of the corner then which I have actually seen some racers do successfully but maybe they wait until the rear wheel is fully straightened up coming out of the corner eh.
What is your analysis of what he did wrong or do you think he should not try being a show off because that's the reason why they do it on race tracks and maybe the road too in that situation.

Surely no one who can breathe unaided can be this fucking stupid?

[eldog]

Can happen for all sorts of reasons, not just mechanical. But when it does, you better hope you can relax in a hurry cos if you fight it, it's gonna hurt.:devil2:

One reason is suddenly twisting the bars around during a rear wheel slide, like you would in a car. :nono:
misaligning the front wheel with the direction of the bike. Seemed like hell had broken loose on my arms
Yep, I first tried to hold it steady:killingme, then I remembered what I read in a mbike book (I can read)
to relax and let the bike sort itself out - well that's what I remembered then......
Slowly it diminished - seemed like FOREVER

[Maha]

It would be a rare thing for anyone (but the person/s directly involved) to learn from and accident. I have seen a good number of accidents and all I can conclude is, someone fucked up. I had nothing to do with it, what can I learn?

My personal view is, you learn from your own pucker moments. I have got myself into several situations over the years that could have turned out not as the did, had it not been for A) a cool head and.... B) no oncoming traffic (on one occasion)

From those moments, all I need to ask myself is why did that happened? If I know the answer (which I generally do) I am well on the way of becoming more aware....within my helmet. Never ever take things for granted though, when least you expect it, expect it.

[nzspokes]

Oh dear! Really? You'd been doing so well too. Do you understand what causes a front wheel to come off the ground? (There's more but we'll wait to see where your level of understanding is first)

She has never ridden a bike with actual horsepower.

[samgab]

Why tankslappers happen and how to avoid them:

1. The “tankslapper” is a very frightening experience. Usually occurring when accelerating hard over bumpy pavement, a tankslapper ensues when the front tyre becomes airborne, then regains traction outside the rear tyre’s alignment. The resulting deflection bounces the tyre off to one side, followed by another bounce in the opposite direction as it contacts the pavement again. Unless the bike’s steering geometry is able to damp out the deflections quickly, the resulting oscillations from the front tyre as it bounces back and forth will swiftly gain in strength, causing the bars to swap from side to side with increasing ferocity. The oscillations can be violent enough to rip the bars out of your hands, and fling your feet off the pegs. You can guess what happens next.

2. The easy cure for this problem is a steering damper. Many sports bikes now come stock with one, as the radical steering geometry needed for quick handling can otherwise cause some instability in certain situations. While a steering damper is an easy fix, it shouldn’t be a cure-all; if you’re forced to adjust the steering damper’s stiffness (if available) until you can barely turn the bars in order to keep the bike’s handling stable, there is a problem somewhere in your chassis setup. A too-stiff steering damper can also cause handling problems by itself; if your steering damper is adjustable, and you find that your bike won’t hold a line (especially in slower corners), or gets into a small wobble or oscillation in high speed corners, try backing off the stiffness a little and see if it helps.

3. Not all sports bikes need a steering damper, however. Many have steering geometry setups that offer quick handling, while still providing the necessary stability to damp out any front-end oscillations. In most cases, one of the biggest contributors to a tankslapper is your body positioning and grip on the bars. Some people ride in a more upright position when carving corners, but when accelerating over bumpy pavement, that upright body position puts even more weight transfer to the rear, which causes the front end to get lighter. Also, the more upright torso means that your grip on the bars is tighter in order to stabilize your upper body. That firmer grip feeds more input into the front end, something it doesn’t need while it’s busy trying to damp out the inputs from the bouncing front tyre. It actually forms a vicious circle: you grip the bars tighter because they’re starting to flap back and forth, but that only feeds more input into the front end, compounding the problem further.

4. The easiest way to avoid tankslappers while accelerating over bumpy pavement is to—believe it or not—keep a relaxed grip on the bars. Relaxing your grip on the bars means you must lean forward in order to assist in keeping your torso stabilized. This helps put more weight on the front end, which keeps the front tyre on the pavement. Since you’re not using your arms to stabilize your upper body, get your weight onto the foot-pegs so that you can get your body as far forward as possible; this also allows you to grip the tank with your knees for more stability.

If you do get into a tankslapper, keep your weight forward and—as hard as this sounds—maintain a relaxed grip on the bars. Let the motorcycle’s chassis deal with damping out the oscillations. Don’t try to be a human steering damper; you’ll only make the problem worse. Tankslappers can definitely soil your undies; but if you’re able to deal with them correctly, you’ll usually ride through them before you know it.
-Source: Sportsrider (http://www.sportrider.com/riding-skills-series-tankslappers)

...and as for saving highsides, the best way is to avoid them altogether if possible, by staying within your limits, and the bike's and the tyre's limits.

If it happens that you do find yourself getting into a slide:


1. Do Nothing

That’s right, nothing. Don’t react. Nine times out of 10, the bike will simply correct itself. If you allow it to. If you close the throttle too quickly, you run the risk of the rear tire regaining traction too quickly, potentially causing a high-side while also shifting the motorcycle’s weight balance forwards, exacerbating the slide itself. If you counter-steer too much, you risk over-correction. Believe it or not, but a bike’s trail will actually cause it to naturally steer into a slide for you. And if you hit the brakes? Well, applying the front brake would likely cause the sliding rear to overtake the front wheel and applying the rear would likely lock that tire, cutting the gyroscopic stability it lends the machine and thereby increasing the odds the bike will end up on the ground.

2. Be The Cheetah Tail

Channel that scene from The Matrix. You know, the one with the spoon. Just here you turn your body into the tail of a cheetah. The big cat uses its long, heavy tail as a counter balance, helping it change direction quickly and to retain stability during extreme maneuvers. If you’re hanging off the bike, allow it to move around freely underneath you while you hold your body relatively still. This helps the bike “find” the right direction to go in.

3. Be Gentle

If you do anything, do it gently. Sometimes, modest deceleration will bring things back into line, but this transfers weight off the rear wheel. Others prefer acceleration, which transfers weight rearwards. The general theory being that, unless you hit zero-traction ice, you have some grip and some ability control the bike’s steering, speed and angle of slide, despite the spinning rear wheel. But, controlling a slide with the throttle takes a deft touch and lots of skill, which requires practice.

4. Look Where You Want To Go

Don’t focus on the ditch or the oncoming truck, look towards the corner’s exit, where you want to be. This works for all riding situations you may find yourself in, but if the bike is moving around underneath you, it becomes doubly important. Consciously force yourself to focus on where you want to be and your subtle body movements in response will help the bike find its way there.

5. Practice

Want to slide-proof your riding? Go practice doing it. Any old dirt bike will do, allowing you to practice slides at a fairly low speed in a much safer environment than on the road. Want to go further? Try flat track racing. That’s about the lowest-cost form of motorsport there is and about all you do is slide. That’s how MotoGP greats like Nicky Hayden and Valentino Rossi practice, too.

Job done!

-Source: Rideapart (https://rideapart.com/articles/save-motorcycle-slide)

[eldog]

It would be a rare thing for anyone (but the person/s directly involved) to learn from and accident. I have seen a good number of accidents and all I can conclude is, someone fucked up. I had nothing to do with it, what can I learn?

My personal view is, you learn from your own pucker moments. I have got myself into several situations over the years that could have turned out not as the did, had it not been for A) a cool head and.... B) no oncoming traffic (on one occasion)

From those moments, all I need to ask myself is why did that happened? If I know the answer (which I generally do) I am well on the way of becoming more aware....within my helmet. Never ever take things for granted though, when least you expect it, expect it.

Granted most accidents you cant learn from.
Yes definitely learn from my own moments
Sometimes talking with people involved they may be able to tell you what to watch for.
they may know why themselves, if they don't then we cant learn. Did they mis-read the road, was there debris, stuff like that.
I don't mean to over think things. Somethings a begineer wont know because they have insufficent info, these are the things we can learn from - like how slippery pine needles are, how shady areas of the road can have ice on them even in summer
Expect the unexpected - yes

[FJRider]

She has never ridden a bike with actual horsepower.

Nor traveled at a significant speed ...

[Luckylegs]

If you think you have a different/better analysis of what the guy did wrong how about giving it as attacking my analysis without doing your own does not show you to be very bright.

You think the rider was showing off?

[Luckylegs]

...through them quite confidently by keeping a very tight grip on the bars to keep any deflection to the absolute minimum.

Yoooooou muuuuuustttt riiiiideee veeeryyyyyy sloooooooooooooooooowlyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[eldog]

Why tankslappers happen and how to avoid them:

-Source: Sportsrider (http://www.sportrider.com/riding-skills-series-tankslappers)

...and as for saving highsides, the best way is to avoid them altogether if possible, by staying within your limits, and the bike's and the tyre's limits.

If it happens that you do find yourself getting into a slide:



-Source: Rideapart (https://rideapart.com/articles/save-motorcycle-slide)

I didn't see the tar bleed midway through the corner and I didnt then know about how slippery wet tar bleed was especially after a hot dry spell.
was only doing 70 when the side occurred - OMG - I wasn't prepared for that much slide.
I tried to keep the throttle constant - bloody hard when you're got a tankslapper
I was doing #4 tankslapper, relaxed leaning forward position on bike - it really helped
fighting it didnt work

[Berries]

plus have seen mortared racers do it too.
As hard as concrete those boys.

[Katman]

Slapper vid

He should probably slow down.

[Luckylegs]

If he had got around the corner sufficiently tft the front up would you not call it showing off? Maybe on the race tracks where you live it does not happen but I have a photo of a Brittan bike doing a wheel stand on a race track plus have seen mortared racers do it too.

No id call it getting as much power to the rear wheel as possible and i see it regularly

Atchily im sure someone will be along with a better description but im sure he wasnt showing off

[FJRider]

He should probably slow down.

Ummm .... he did ... right after the tank slapper ... :shifty:

[Luckylegs]

You must ride way too fast coming out of corners. Now you have learnt something today on how not to get into tank slap situations eh. Or as the guy in the video said you may be riding a bike with a poor suspension set up or modification so maybe get your bike checked if you have bought it second hand. Maybe there could be an issue with some brand new bikes being more prone to it than others and it's quite understandable that magazine testers would not be keen to test them for their tank slap potential. I guess I have been very lucky with the bikes I have bought over the years.

Why, i dont recall mentioning my riding at all. Oh wait, youve responded to the person havent you. Oh you poor dear. This internet just isnt as easy as riding is it?

[unstuck]

I think the guy in the slapper vid would have had a much better chance of keeping it under control if his foot didn't come off the peg.But guess we will never know aye.:msn-wink:

[samgab]

I didn't see the tar bleed midway through the corner and I didnt then know about how slippery wet tar bleed was especially after a hot dry spell.
was only doing 70 when the side occurred - OMG - I wasn't prepared for that much slide.
I tried to keep the throttle constant - bloody hard when you're got a tankslapper
I was doing #4 tankslapper, relaxed leaning forward position on bike - it really helped
fighting it didnt work

Sometimes, despite your best efforts, an off can happen. Even the best, most cautious riders come off sometimes. The thing then, as you said at the beginning of the thread, is to analyse what went wrong and try to see if there are any lessons in it for next time. Hitting wet tar bleed is going to be hard for anyone to recover from doing open road speeds, but now you've learnt to identify what to look out for, and with smart road positioning, you can often avoid places where the tar bleed has happened. But there are no guarantees in life, except taxes and death, and those are both whole other thread topics...

That Roadcraft Nottingham video linked somewhere up nearer the start of the thread had some good pointers about road positioning, and how position "4" (in a 1 to 5 position method), which would be the cars' right wheel track, is not always automatically the best position on the road, depending on circumstances. When the tar melts in the heat of summer, the tyres of cars running over the melted tar in positions 2 and 4 would "steamroll" it smooth and indent that portion of the road somewhat, resulting in a much more slippery surface when wet due to the smoother surface and the fact that water is more likely to pool there. In those cases, position 3, the "sump position" or centre of the road, would have rougher, better grip road surface, higher level meaning water would run off quicker, and the concern of oil isn't a great danger on open road as modern cars don't leak much oil and they'd all be doing open road speeds at a place like that so minimal oil or other debris would be dropped there. But it depends on the age of the road surface and a bunch of other considerations.

Then you also have areas of open road down a fast hill, where trucks all use their engine braking, causing lots of little judders in the road surface, which if you happen to be doing a particular speed, can be just the right harmonic to set off a tank slapper.

[Luckylegs]

Tell your mates what you have learnt today but the tradeoff maybe they loose the race if they are racers eh? Let's hope the guy who it happened to on the road has learnt something too eh


Yeh... ill get them to stop showing off with all those pointless stoppies under brakes to eh. Having the back wheel off the ground must just un-neccessary danger right

[eldog]

I think the guy in the slapper vid would have had a much better chance of keeping it under control if his foot didn't come off the peg.But guess we will never know aye.:msn-wink:

yes something's we will never know no matter how much we try.
so what have we learnt so far.
some accidents are avoidable, some are unavoidable, some we can learn from, most we cannot.

and some people will never learn.

thanks Samgab - After my off, I now vary my road position just like your post above and RoadCraft Nottingham
funnily it was my change from my first time round that corner earlier in the week (it was raining then) I cut the corner completely, the second time I rode the outside wheel track - like I was taught to 'see more' around the corner - this was where the tar bleed was....

I am always open to listen and learning from others. But I learn most from my own mistakes.

[Luckylegs]

You must ride way too fast coming out of corners. Now you have learnt something today on how not to get into tank slap situations eh. Or as the guy in the video said you may be riding a bike with a poor suspension set up or modification so maybe get your bike checked if you have bought it second hand. Maybe there could be an issue with some brand new bikes being more prone to it than others and it's quite understandable that magazine testers would not be keen to test them for their tank slap potential. I guess I have been very lucky with the bikes I have bought over the years.

Fwiw. I was referring to your holding the bars tightly.... im reasonably sure youll have most of your side of the fence to yourself on that argument. Thats all!

[swbarnett]

You should see if they will allow you to go for a ride around Snowfarm Cardrona Valley in the middle of Winter as they have a dedicated snow and ice track like in the movie for vehicle testing.
This is worth a mental note. I'd love to. I won't, however, be using my own bike. I have no experience of this type of riding so I would want to eliminate the fear of dropping it. After a few laps (or more likely visits) I'm sure I would though. Once I'd gained a bit of confidence.

I have the same problem with gravel. I have an irrational fear of dropping the bike so I don't do a lot of it (I don't shy away if it presents itself though and do sometimes go looking for it).


You would be cheating if you took an old trail bike like they rode in the movie though as dropping them would not be very expensive repair wise.
Cheating if that's all I did, yes. However, that is definitely the place to start.

[ellipsis]

...where the fuck did the sudden change to fucking wheelstands come from...now the gristle for brains, twat will post another thousand words of drivel...is that good or bad?...it's well past being funny...

[Luckylegs]

...where the fuck did the sudden change to fucking wheelstands come from...now the gristle for brains, twat will post another thousand words of drivel...is that good or bad?...it's well past being funny...

Its great for post counts.... other than that... meh!

[eldog]

I have yet to do a wheelie or stoppie, my bike is on its centrestand

I will admit to have learnt something about others accidents and mostly my own on this thread.

and I dont understand what meh! is

[unstuck]

and I dont understand what meh! is

A polite was of saying "who fucking cares". :msn-wink:

[Luckylegs]

I have yet to do a wheelie or stoppie, my bike is on its centrestand

I will admit to have learnt something about others accidents and mostly my own on this thread.

and I dont understand what meh! is

Hmm mm mm.... maybe we need a kiwibiker glossy. It can include things like me, as well as;

Sprotsbike
Cnut
timmay
WINJA

and most importantly

Reach around*

[bluninja]

...and as for saving highsides, the best way is to avoid them altogether if possible, by staying within your limits, and the bike's and the tyre's limits.

If it happens that you do find yourself getting into a slide:



-Source: Rideapart (https://rideapart.com/articles/save-motorcycle-slide)

Hot day, sudden downpour, track drying so go out for my first sighting lap. Exited a corner and straightened but hit a puddle and back wheel slid out...I left throttle as was and was happy for bike to right itself, but; the wheel spin had lifted the engine revs into peak torque and as it exited the wet patch got lots of grip and torque. I found myself airborne, holding the handlebars and looking, between the taped headlight and the front wheel, at the radiator.

What did I learn? my judo rolls work coming down head first onto a track at speed; going like a starfish on the tarmac to slow yourself in the wet only works if your bike is not upside down and speeding towards you; race tape and a ducati clip on will fix a Kawasaki and allow you to play on the track for 2 more days and ride 1600km home; a broken rib means it's harder to hang off the bike and you realise just how far the bike will actually lean.

[eldog]

Hot day, sudden downpour, track drying so go out for my first sighting lap. Exited a corner and straightened but hit a puddle and back wheel slid out...I left throttle as was and was happy for bike to right itself, but; the wheel spin had lifted the engine revs into peak torque and as it exited the wet patch got lots of grip and torque. I found myself airborne, holding the handlebars and looking, between the taped headlight and the front wheel, at the radiator.

What did I learn? my judo rolls work coming down head first onto a track at speed; going like a starfish on the tarmac to slow yourself in the wet only works if your bike is not upside down and speeding towards you; race tape and a ducati clip on will fix a Kawasaki and allow you to play on the track for 2 more days and ride 1600km home; a broken rib means it's harder to hang off the bike and you realise just how far the bike will actually lean.

What would have happened if you used the clutch when you realised what was going to happen?

[eldog]

Hmm mm mm.... maybe we need a kiwibiker glossy. It can include things like me, as well as;

Sprotsbike
Cnut
timmay
WINJA

and most importantly

Reach around*

i was born before txt speak, I get some of the above but miss most

[awa355]

and I dont understand what meh! is

Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.

[eldog]

Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.

Mate, I have spent far too many years not doing anything except work, it's been worth it but I have missed stuff, I don't care if I look stupid, but if you don't know ask. Look at the SASS site I have asked a lot of questions there. I maybe restarting my riding because I feel I didn't do it right the first time and get the bike setup properly. I haven't been comfortable with how I control the bike. As I want to progress to a larger bike I want to get the basics correct first.

i know I will get shit on KB, I can give it as well, but that's the only way I will get answers by asking. There is a lot of knowledge here, just sometimes you can get it.

[samgab]

Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.

"Meh" is an onomatopoeia. It's the sound made when someone is not interested in something...

[Luckylegs]

I have yet to do a wheelie or stoppie, my bike is on its centrestand

I will admit to have learnt something about others accidents and mostly my own on this thread.

and I dont understand what meh! is


A polite was of saying "who fucking cares". :msn-wink:


Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.


Ok you can look stupid for not reading properly then! But seriously, its ok, i dint have the first coue eithef till i joined kiwibiker :-)

[Luckylegs]

i was born before txt speak, I get some of the above but miss most

Theyre nothing to do with text speak. Thats after my time too. Their just terms and in one case a name used hee in kb land in differing amounts over the years

..such fun!

[eldog]

"Meh" is an onomatopoeia. It's the sound made when someone is not interested in something...

It's not the sound I use........:bleh:

lets ts hope the OP has learnt something I know I have

[Tazz]

and I dont understand what meh! is


Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.

You guys will like this site then:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Meh

:niceone:

[unstuck]

Me neither, but I never wanted to look stupid asking:laugh::laugh: No one has given you an answer yet. And I dont get any of those other thingys either.

Well gee thanks, Mr nobody here.:bleh::bleh:

[eldog]

Well gee thanks, Mr nobody here.:bleh::bleh:

Gee, thanks Mr Unstuck :Punk:Sir.

and you to Tazz :Punk:

soon I will be thanking everyone on KB so here goes:violin:

Thanks everyone on KB for the help - past, present and future :facepalm:


but I do appreciate your help :niceone:

[bluninja]

What would have happened if you used the clutch when you realised what was going to happen?

Who knows, it was slide ...up in the air...I had just left a corner onto a long straight and was not covering the clutch...the tenth of a second to realise, 1 tenth to pull on the clutch...I was already airborne by then. If there's a next time I'll consider the clutch...or perhaps wring it's neck so it doesn't get traction back until it's in line and upright :innocent:

[eldog]

Who knows, it was slide ...up in the air...I had just left a corner onto a long straight and was not covering the clutch...the tenth of a second to realise, 1 tenth to pull on the clutch...I was already airborne by then. If there's a next time I'll consider the clutch...or perhaps wring it's neck so it doesn't get traction back until it's in line and upright :innocent:

for some reason I always cover the clutch and the brake. its instinctive for me. Like the brake and gear changes I just don't know how to use them properly yet.
Just like I like to be all over the bike and I am no racer. I have learnt to move smoother, get into position BEFORE the corner - not during it. I can alter position slightly if I need to.

I have so much to learn....

those ribs would have hurt.... 1600 km OMG

I was lucky, bruising and unable to move right arm till the next day.
lucky I didnt loose grip of the throttle on the way home
still have some issues with foot and shoulder but they are getting better
and the bike went ahead of me phew

[haydes55]

Who knows, it was slide ...up in the air...I had just left a corner onto a long straight and was not covering the clutch...the tenth of a second to realise, 1 tenth to pull on the clutch...I was already airborne by then. If there's a next time I'll consider the clutch...or perhaps wring it's neck so it doesn't get traction back until it's in line and upright :innocent:


We are taught to clutch a wheelie back down at speedway. But the only risk of a wheelie that needs controlling is usually after a start and the clutch is covered then.

I wouldn't imagine it would help much on tarmac though. Patting the clutch lever usually allows less power to the wheel but still revving high enough so it's still breaking traction. In your case it sounded like it had full traction, so clutch would be about as useful as just shutting the throttle. I bet you could roll off throttle a lot faster than reaching for a clutch lever with a death grip on a skyward motorbike.

[eldog]

We are taught to clutch a wheelie back down at speedway. But the only risk of a wheelie that needs controlling is usually after a start and the clutch is covered then.

I wouldn't imagine it would help much on tarmac though. Patting the clutch lever usually allows less power to the wheel but still revving high enough so it's still breaking traction. In your case it sounded like it had full traction, so clutch would be about as useful as just shutting the throttle. I bet you could roll off throttle a lot faster than reaching for a clutch lever with a death grip on a skyward motorbike.

Jut what I needed to know, so closing the throttle/engaging the clutch would slow the rear wheel and cause traction to be regained - highside
then keeping the throttle constant would allow the traction to be regained slowly - possibly no highside.
would that be a basic summary?

[bluninja]

those ribs would have hurt.... 1600 km OMG

I was lucky, bruising and unable to move right arm till the next day.
lucky I didnt loose grip of the throttle on the way home
still have some issues with foot and shoulder but they are getting better
and the bike went ahead of me phew

I also did 2 full days of track time at a very fast race track. Apart from the rib, I rolled onto my head and elbow as I avoided my bike and went through 3 layers of leather and a bit of my elbow. It was 45 minutes before I calmed down enough from the adrenalin rush to go see the nurse. Ribs hurt, but mostly when you are laughing or bending so upright on the bike is fine.


Jut what I needed to know, so closing the throttle/engaging the clutch would slow the rear wheel and cause traction to be regained - highside
then keeping the throttle constant would allow the traction to be regained slowly - possibly no highside.
would that be a basic summary?
Remember you would be steering into the slide (or the same direction your rear wheel is heading) so that you get both wheels in line. Once they are in line more grip just pushes you forward faster rather than high side, and you can then use throttle, brakes and clutch as normal to control things.

[eldog]

I also did 2 full days of track time at a very fast race track. Apart from the rib, I rolled onto my head and elbow as I avoided my bike and went through 3 layers of leather and a bit of my elbow. It was 45 minutes before I calmed down enough from the adrenalin rush to go see the nurse. Ribs hurt, but mostly when you are laughing or bending so upright on the bike is fine.


Remember you would be steering into the slide (or the same direction your rear wheel is heading) so that you get both wheels in line. Once they are in line more grip just pushes you forward faster rather than high side, and you can then use throttle, brakes and clutch as normal to control things.

First part: owch, glad you are OK :headbang:

Steering into slide - THAT I didn't know when it happened, could have saved me a whole lot of grief.
Hop others read this and apply it when they have a slide = learning from accidents

[samgab]

First part: owch, glad you are OK :headbang:

Steering into slide - THAT I didn't know when it happened, could have saved me a whole lot of grief.
Hop others read this and apply it when they have a slide = learning from accidents

It's true, but you don't have time to consciously decide to do it, eg: "Oh, I'm sliding, right, what am I supposed to do in this situation? Oh yes, steer into the slide -- or was that steer where I want to go..."
That's why I stand by the idea of practising on crappy old farm bikes or trail bikes on paddocks or private dirt roads or whatever. Or cheap bikes at track days I suppose too. You kind of get a feel for what to do, and it's instinctive and muscle memory rather than conscious thought. And you'll have a few offs while playing before you get it, it doesn't usually happen naturally first time. You don't want that first few times to be on the road with possible oncoming cars and trees and fences etc all about.
But avoiding a slide, skid, or any sort of loss of traction in the first place is best on public roads, if at all possible.

Are there any threads about combined rider techniques; such as pressuring the footpegs, countersteering, shifting body position, road position when riding, proper cornering lines, smooth shifting, throttle control, emergency braking, trailing the rear brake, slow riding control/balance, not target fixating but looking at where you want to go, understanding the traction circle, and so on? A thread like that would be useful. So many riders I see on the road don't seem to know about any of those things...

[eldog]

It's true, but you don't have time to consciously decide to do it, eg: "Oh, I'm sliding, right, what am I supposed to do in this situation? Oh yes, steer into the slide -- or was that steer where I want to go..."
That's why I stand by the idea of practising on crappy old farm bikes or trail bikes on paddocks or private dirt roads or whatever. Or cheap bikes at track days I suppose too. You kind of get a feel for what to do, and it's instinctive and muscle memory rather than conscious thought. And you'll have a few offs while playing before you get it, it doesn't usually happen naturally first time. You don't want that first few times to be on the road with possible oncoming cars and trees and fences etc all about.
But avoiding a slide, skid, or any sort of loss of traction in the first place is best on public roads, if at all possible.

Are there any threads about combined rider techniques; such as pressuring the footpegs, countersteering, shifting body position, road position when riding, proper cornering lines, smooth shifting, throttle control, emergency braking, trailing the rear brake, slow riding control/balance, not target fixating but looking at where you want to go, understanding the traction circle, and so on? A thread like that would be useful. So many riders I see on the road don't seem to know about any of those things...

yes I want my reaction to be instinctive rather than thought, I had enough time to 'remember' what I read about tankslappers put it into place and actually see it diminishing.....

its my intention once I get my on road skills a bit better sorted to give these other methods ago.
- slow speed control, clutch/brake etc

combined techniques - that's my next level of rider training and books .....

then maybe a track day with coaching - refining technique

then on road practise

[rocketman1]

It is simple to think that you park behind a van , truck, or vehicle that cannot see you because you cannot see its mirrors.
Well you in big trouble if it reverses. A friend followed a truck & trailer off a motorway off ramp overseas, truck stops, bike stop right behind it.
Truck for some reason, decides he has gone off the wrong ramp, and is reversing up over the bikes and the riders, luckliy one of the bikers got off his bike and ran up to the driver just in time. Can happen that quick.
Moral... be seen ....always

[eldog]

There were 1 or 2 cycling deaths in ChCh last year due to truck drivers not seeing them as they have multiple blind spots

I learnt a lot when I first started to drive a truck.
Amazing what you can't seen when you sit in the drivers seat of a big truck, Everyone should try it, esp a truck and trailer.

Get in sit down, get someone to walk around the whole thing, get them to pretend they are in another lane next to you.
see how little you can see, that's why truck is sometimes don't see you if they are trying to change lanes. I try and ride either behind or in front of other vehicles which are in the lane next to me.
an experienced rider told me once keep out of centre lane for this very reason.

Then if you get the opportunity go for a small drive LOADED say at 50kph then see how long it takes to S T O P. :banana: I remember my first time, everytime I drive a truck, so I plan ahead, a long way ahead.


It should be part of the car license to get that experience.

[swbarnett]

It is simple to think that you park behind a van , truck, or vehicle that cannot see you because you cannot see its mirrors.
Well you in big trouble if it reverses. A friend followed a truck & trailer off a motorway off ramp overseas, truck stops, bike stop right behind it.
Truck for some reason, decides he has gone off the wrong ramp, and is reversing up over the bikes and the riders, luckliy one of the bikers got off his bike and ran up to the driver just in time. Can happen that quick.
Moral... be seen ....always
NEVER assume you can be seen. The mistake this biker made was stopping behind the truck in such a way that they couldn't get out of the truck's way. This is why I'm always to one side of the vehicle in front if stopped in a queue. This will also save you if the vehicle that comes up behind you doesn't stop.

[pritch]

Then if you get the opportunity go for a small drive LOADED say at 50kph then see how long it takes to S T O P. :banana: I remember my first time, everytime I drive a truck, so I plan ahead, a long way ahead.



I was at a meeting once, reps from most big businesses and govt departments in the city discussing safety. I asked about the possibility of driver training; the drivers where I worked were less than confidence inspiring. Vehicles from one of the bigger concerns were driven uniformly badly - so badly they removed all company logos from the vehicles. My idea was that if enough major players combined we could get one of the professional driver training organisations to visit the town and conduct pratical training on some suitable expanse of seal.

During the subsequent discussion one of the local fire officers said that their "white vehicle" drivers go to Manfield for training and the fire truck drivers go to Ohakea and use the runway, mainly to teach them how long it takes to stop a loaded fire truck.

[caspernz]

Then if you get the opportunity go for a small drive LOADED say at 50kph then see how long it takes to S T O P. :banana: I remember my first time, everytime I drive a truck, so I plan ahead, a long way ahead.

There's other issues at play here though. A properly trained driver vs a mere licence holder, then an old tech truck vs a modern one.

So take a modern disc braked ABS/EBS truck. The nut behind the wheel becomes the problem, because that new gear pulls up so damn well that the poorly trained (or aggro) driver can end up driving it like a car...well, because it's pretty damn close.

As a group truckies aren't bad, but just like bikers...the tendency to blame the other road user first and foremost just makes me laugh.

But yeah, take an old truck loaded to the gunnels and it's a hair raising experience, I sure as heck don't miss those days.

[BMWST?]

There's other issues at play here though. A properly trained driver vs a mere licence holder, then an old tech truck vs a modern one.

So take a modern disc braked ABS/EBS truck. The nut behind the wheel becomes the problem, because that new gear pulls up so damn well that the poorly trained (or aggro) driver can end up driving it like a car...well, because it's pretty damn close.

As a group truckies aren't bad, but just like bikers...the tendency to blame the other road user first and foremost just makes me laugh.

But yeah, take an old truck loaded to the gunnels and it's a hair raising experience, I sure as heck don't miss those days.

i bet that with all the mod cons those big 40 and 50 tonners still take an ice age to stop.The blind spot thing is poor too with more mirrors and small cameras available now there is no excuse for rearward blind spots or blind spot adjacent to the cab.This is not blaming truck drivers,but is for the safety orf other road users round these giants.

[Akzle]

This is not blaming truck drivers,but is for the safety orf other road users round these giants.

fuck other road users. they're small. (and mostly fucking retarded)

it's up to other road users to engage a bit of fucken brain, realise that trucks are big and heavy and made of metal and will fuck your day up if you do something stupid in front of them.

[caseye]

fuck other road users. they're small. (and mostly fucking retarded)

it's up to other road users to engage a bit of fucken brain, realise that trucks are big and heavy and made of metal and will fuck your day up if you do something stupid in front of them.

Wot E said! Do NOT stop behind any thing bigger than you without making absolutely sure that the driver can see you! It Is That SIMPLE People.
Take fucking responsibility for your self first and foremost, then half of all motorcycle accidents will stop happening overnight, don't believe me?
Tough shit cause so many bikers think they're the bees knees they will never do it, even if it meant they'd be alive tomorrow.
That's the other problem we have, so many bikers think they are much better than they really are.

[eldog]

fuck other road users. they're small. (and mostly fucking retarded)

it's up to other road users to engage a bit of fucken brain, realise that trucks are big and heavy and made of metal and will fuck your day up if you do something stupid in front of them.

It was my original, maybe obscure, point that larger vehicles should be treated with respect.
i occasionally work in quarries, and make a effort to make myself visible to each DRIVER/operator as I move around the site.

i also use 'Might is Right' if its bigger than you make an effort to be noticed and position yourself (even stop/reverse) so you can take evasive action if required. most people just dont realise what limitations larger vehicles have (including those SUV drivers).

And I have driven a few of those modern high HP trucks - too easy just like a car.

[eldog]

Wot E said! Do NOT stop behind any thing bigger than you without making absolutely sure that the driver can see you! It Is That SIMPLE People.
Take fucking responsibility for your self first and foremost, then half of all motorcycle accidents will stop happening overnight, don't believe me?
Tough shit cause so many bikers think they're the bees knees they will never do it, even if it meant they'd be alive tomorrow.
That's the other problem we have, so many bikers think they are much better than they really are.

Be SAFE Be SEEN.

I always position myself so I am NOT immediately behind the vehicle in front, either to the right so I can move forwrd if someone fails to stop behind or approx 2m behind so I have al least some room in case they roll back. I have also learnt to keep the bike in gear unless really sure(2 stopped cars behind). Never know if someone fails to see you and stop (had this one).

Dont try and second guess other road users.

[nzspokes]

There's other issues at play here though. A properly trained driver vs a mere licence holder, then an old tech truck vs a modern one.

So take a modern disc braked ABS/EBS truck. The nut behind the wheel becomes the problem, because that new gear pulls up so damn well that the poorly trained (or aggro) driver can end up driving it like a car...well, because it's pretty damn close.

As a group truckies aren't bad, but just like bikers...the tendency to blame the other road user first and foremost just makes me laugh.

But yeah, take an old truck loaded to the gunnels and it's a hair raising experience, I sure as heck don't miss those days.

I used to drive some D and N series Fords back in the day, swap bodys. Interesting experience. Thus ended my truck driving career.

Didnt squash anybody so cant have been that bad.

[FJRider]

Be SAFE Be SEEN.

I always position myself so I am NOT immediately behind the vehicle in front, either to the right so I can move forwrd if someone fails to stop behind or approx 2m behind so I have al least some room in case they roll back. I have also learnt to keep the bike in gear unless really sure(2 stopped cars behind). Never know if someone fails to see you and stop (had this one).

Dont try and second guess other road users.

On a motorcycle .... If you can see the driver in THEIR mirror ... they should be able to see your headlight and YOU.

[eldog]

On a motorcycle .... If you can see the driver in THEIR mirror ... they should be able to see your headlight and YOU.

not all use their mirrors, some ONLY look straight ahead, even when merging onto a road.
yes they SHOULD be able to see you, thats why i have added more lights:cool:

[FJRider]

not all use their mirrors, some ONLY look straight ahead, even when merging onto a road.
yes they SHOULD be able to see you, thats why i have added more lights:cool:

I added an air horn ... very effective for getting attention.

[eldog]

I added an air horn ... very effective for getting attention.
lights on all the time, need time to decide to push air horn, no doubt effective though, I have fitted one to my next bike already.:rockon:

would a loud pipe be effective too?:whistle:

[FJRider]

... would a loud pipe be effective too?:whistle:

NO ... Hit the button and they're looking for the Mack truck. They don't hear loud exhausts until you've past them ...

[eldog]

NO ... Hit the button and they're looking for the Mack truck. They don't hear loud exhausts until you've past them ...
wont see a mack truck if its just little old me, i wont register in their tiny self centered minds.
but this exhaust they are looking for a harley or too.;)

[FJRider]

wont see a mack truck if its just little old me ...

Trust me ... they WILL be looking for one.


THEM LOOKING ... is a start.

[eldog]

Trust me ... they WILL be looking for one.


THEM LOOKING ... is a start.

that might be applicable for those residents below Bombay Hills and above Albany.

Most aucklanders act like those animals you see tied up on the side of the road. If they ignore or turn away and ignore things around them, then they wont be affected.

If I cant see them, then nothing can happen to me. Its related to not getting involved.

When I was in USA, I noticed it was frowned upon if you looked directly at other drivers, they took it as imtimidation esp in LA. just saying. People told me we had the attitude the states had in the fifties, a friendly place but I think akl is changing for the worse.

[FJRider]

that might be applicable for those residents below Bombay Hills and above Albany.

Most aucklanders act like those animals you see tied up on the side of the road. If they ignore or turn away and ignore things around them, then they wont be affected.

If I cant see them, then nothing can happen to me. Its related to not getting involved.

When I was in USA, I noticed it was frowned upon if you looked directly at other drivers, they took it as imtimidation esp in LA. just saying. People told me we had the attitude the states had in the fifties, a friendly place but I think akl is changing for the worse.

Down here (apart from a few tourists) we know every body. If we want to overtake them ... we just ring them and ask them to move over to the left a little.

It's worked well so far ... ;)

[eldog]

Down here (apart from a few tourists) we know every body. If we want to overtake them ... we just ring them and ask them to move over to the left a little.

It's worked well so far ... ;)

sounds like the south i remember, so your still on the old party phone lines eh?

must remember to ring ahead when i come down that way again. :whistle:

but you wouldnt hear me over the exhaust;)

[FJRider]

sounds like the south i remember, so your still on the old party phone lines eh?

must remember to ring ahead when i come down that way again. :whistle:

but you wouldnt hear me over the exhaust;)

Nah ... we have our own individual numbers ... but those 5 digit numbers are hard to memorize ... :innocent:

You won't need my number ... just ring. Everybody knows me.

It's ok ... I'll see your headlight ... :shifty:

[eldog]

Nah ... we have our own individual numbers ... but those 5 digit numbers are hard to memorize ... :innocent:

You won't need my number ... just ring. Everybody knows me.

It's ok ... I'll see your headlight ... :shifty:

individual numbers must have improve a bit. dont have 5 digit nos any more, bugger i remember 8 digit ones. Seem to remember 4 digit ones too :whistle:

Remember being shown around Hamilton Main? Telephone exchange as they were in the process of updating the phone relays to fully computerised ones with complete mirrored backup - how time flies.....

You will see headlightS plural and hear exhaust, you might not see me though not enough hi vis.;)

Is it possible to ride in Paradise in late Autumn/Winter? - It only seems to snow up here once every few years, well it was a very light snow fall, which had everyone else panicing :cool:

I have learnt in very windy condtions (wind shifted me in an instant(very short time period) from one lane to another) to try and avoid blustery conditions

[BMWST?]

Akzle,dont waste your time,i have you on ignore and cant see or dont read your posts...and shit

[Akzle]

Akzle,dont waste your time,i have you on ignore and cant see or dont read your posts...and shit

eat a dick, old nigger. like fuck i've ever posted anything for YOUR benefit.

like it's a fucking badge of honor to have me on ignore? join the fucking club, they meet on thursdays and have ham and cucumber sammies, so i'm told.

[Akzle]

Guys on here say they ignore my posts too but if that was the case they would not keep replying as if we would give a fuck anyway eh.

we? there's no we, white fulla.

[IanGt750]

It's true, but you don't have time to consciously decide to do it, eg: "Oh, I'm sliding, right, what am I supposed to do in this situation? Oh yes, steer into the slide -- or was that steer where I want to go..."
That's why I stand by the idea of practising on crappy old farm bikes or trail bikes on paddocks or private dirt roads or whatever. Or cheap bikes at track days I suppose too. You kind of get a feel for what to do, and it's instinctive and muscle memory rather than conscious thought. And you'll have a few offs while playing before you get it, it doesn't usually happen naturally first time. You don't want that first few times to be on the road with possible oncoming cars and trees and fences etc all about.
But avoiding a slide, skid, or any sort of loss of traction in the first place is best on public roads, if at all possible.

Are there any threads about combined rider techniques; such as pressuring the footpegs, countersteering, shifting body position, road position when riding, proper cornering lines, smooth shifting, throttle control, emergency braking, trailing the rear brake, slow riding control/balance, not target fixating but looking at where you want to go, understanding the traction circle, and so on? A thread like that would be useful. So many riders I see on the road don't seem to know about any of those things...

I have taken a couple of "Pro-rider" courses. These are on road and track based, depending on your current skill level. These have explained a lot of what I do instinctively (on the bike!) and taught me advanced riding skills. Worth a look on their web site.
Stay safe........