I need a friendly engineering co with a big press or similar - can anyone help?

[Badcat]

hello all.
i have an issue.
i'm restoring this:
http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/badcatnz/IMG_0203_zps0f5ea991.jpg

no - thats not the issue (but i can understand how you might think that)

the problem is i need to remove an incredibly stubborn swingarm pivot bolt. ive been trying a week with all sorts of violence.

i think i need a dirty great press and the help of a professional.

http://i356.photobucket.com/albums/oo7/badcatnz/IMG_0071_zpsf34d4f32.jpg

this isnt working either....

anyone know someone that can help me?
i cant start until i get the pivot out - need the frame off to powdercoat and the pivot goes through the motor too.

dont mind paying for help.

ken

[ellipsis]

...big hammer, you know, really big...a drift and some silly cunt to hold the drift for you...

[haydes55]

Have you tried heat yet? Don't put a naked flame onto the bike if it's covered in flammable substances..... On the flammable note, have you tried CRC or penetrating oils etc?

[Badcat]

Have you tried heat yet? Don't put a naked flame onto the bike if it's covered in flammable substances..... On the flammable note, have you tried CRC or penetrating oils etc?

have done CRC etc but not heat.
very close to the motor (in fact the pivot runs through the engine case)
ken

[Imagineering]

Might be easier than you think. First ascertain where the Bolt is stuck; Does the Swingarm Move? If you undo the rest of the Motor Mounts does the Motor move? What I'm getting at here is trying to isolate which part of the Frame/Engine/Swingarm the Shaft is stuck to. Keep in mind that, even if the Swingarm moves, the Outer Bearings/Bushes may be seized to the Bolt/Shaft.
Heat is a very good idea, but clean up any inflammables first, like Chain Oil etc
What can work is to gentle heat the offending area and then spray CRC into the joint whilst it is still warm. What happens here is that, the Heat expands the Air held between the Parts and spraying of CRC cools the Parts and sucks the CRC deeper into the seized joint. You may need to do this a few times.

Good Luck.

[buggerit]

That thing brings back bad memories of RV 90,s and 125,s

[Akzle]

get a bigger hammer.

But srsly. heat.
Do you not own an hydraulic jack? Often even a little 3t will crack shit like that.
If yes, use that. If not, go find a man.

Also, get a bigger hammer.

[unstuck]

Hope thats not a rental property.:crazy:

[Bikemad]

can you turn/rotate the bolt?...........if not put a bar and socket on the bolt head,apply some pressure and tap the other end of the bolt or the swingarm where the bolt passes through

[Badcat]

Might be easier than you think. First ascertain where the Bolt is stuck; Does the Swingarm Move? If you undo the rest of the Motor Mounts does the Motor move? What I'm getting at here is trying to isolate which part of the Frame/Engine/Swingarm the Shaft is stuck to. Keep in mind that, even if the Swingarm moves, the Outer Bearings/Bushes may be seized to the Bolt/Shaft.
Heat is a very good idea, but clean up any inflammables first, like Chain Oil etc
What can work is to gentle heat the offending area and then spray CRC into the joint whilst it is still warm. What happens here is that, the Heat expands the Air held between the Parts and spraying of CRC cools the Parts and sucks the CRC deeper into the seized joint. You may need to do this a few times.

Good Luck.

the swingarm moves.
the bolt end rotates.
it's not caught in the eccentric for the jackshaft chain tension.
my guess (and opinion on ADVrider BW thread) is the pivot shaft has adhered to the sleeve inside the rear engine mount.
i'm not heating it, or using a sledgehammer, I'm not a muppet.
as per my question - does anyone know an engineer that may be able to help?

ken

[Badcat]

Hope thats not a rental property.:crazy:

what are you - my property manager?

[schrodingers cat]

Yes the coolest thing about a really big fuck off hammer is that it will turn the most stubborn bolt into a rivet...

Personally I'd be heating both ends of the bolt red hot and letting it cool to thermally shock things.

After that just accept that you're going to need a new bolt and new bush and use drills and hacksaws to get things apart.
Sometimes drastic measures get to the point of being able to move forward much sooner,

[Imagineering]

i'm not heating it, or using a sledgehammer, I'm not a muppet.
as per my question - does anyone know an engineer that may be able to help?
ken


This Muppet happens to be an Engineer ...

[Badcat]

This Muppet happens to be an Engineer ...

Sorry. I mean no offence.
I mean my backyard and meagre toolkit aren't really the place to fix this.
I don't have the workshop or the tools to do it properly, that's what the muppet reference was.
The bikes are rare, so if I bugger the frame, I'm screwed.
Hence asking for a professional with skill and tools to help.

Ken

[Kickaha]

the swingarm moves.
the bolt end rotates.
it's not caught in the eccentric for the jackshaft chain tension.
my guess (and opinion on ADVrider BW thread) is the pivot shaft has adhered to the sleeve inside the rear engine mount.


If the swingarm moves and the bolt end rotates with it then I doubt it has adhered to the rear engine mount, more likely siezed in the swingarm bushes/bearings

[Grumph]

A big press won't help you. If you can't move it with shock impacts, ie a hammer...it's not moving. Heat cycles, penetrating oils, impacts. If those don't work, the pivot bolt becomes sacrificial.
The only difference between you and an engineer is that the engineer knows when to cut his losses and pull out a grinder.

Those bloody things got used on beaches and rivers, the corollary to that is corrosion - as you're finding. I'd bet the frame has internal corrosion too.

[Imagineering]

Here is how I would go about the Restoration/Rebuild ...

1/ Check the Engine, does it run, If not - do you or your Mates have the Skills to make it run?
If not - abandon the Project now.

2/ Check if Tyres are still available to fit. If not - abandon the Project now.

3/ OK, You have decided to continue with this Project, so ...


As I see it from your Photo and description of the problem so far; The SwingArm is inside the Frame, so you can't get to the SwingArm Bearings/Bushes anyhow. It's a bit difficult to do things via remote from Wellington, but ...

As you have a minimum of Tooling, try this: (might be easier to put the Bike on its side), Centre Punch the Centre of the SwingArm Pivot and drill with a small, say 4mm Drill-Bit. Drill down to a depth that is equal to the thickness of the Frame. Open the Hole up with a successive series of Drill-bits until the SwingArm Pivot is as thin as possible. You may get lucky and have the last Drill-Bit tear out the last vestige of Metal. Flip the Bike over and repeat the process on the other end of the SwingArm Pivot.
If the Pivot is thin enough, you should be able to wrench & twist the Frame away from the Motor/SwingArm Assembly, (might require a Mate or two).

You will now be able to see the SwingArm Bearings, (most likely Bushes), which you can then deal to using the Heat/Penetrating-Oil Cycle. You don't need to heat it up too much, just enough so that you can't touch it, then spray the Penetrating Oil into the seized joint. As the area cools, tap around the area with a small hammer, then do it again, and again ...
Pop down to your local M10 or Bunnings and have a look at their MAPP Gas Torches. Every Workshop should have one ...
If you don't want to buy/borrow a Torch, repeat the process outlined above, but this time drilling down through the SwingArm Bush.

Tedious, yes, but it may save your Butt and get the Project back on track again ...

Good Luck.

[Badcat]

Here is how I would go about the Restoration/Rebuild ...

1/ Check the Engine, does it run, If not - do you or your Mates have the Skills to make it run?
If not - abandon the Project now.

2/ Check if Tyres are still available to fit. If not - abandon the Project now.

3/ OK, You have decided to continue with this Project, so ...


As I see it from your Photo and description of the problem so far; The SwingArm is inside the Frame, so you can't get to the SwingArm Bearings/Bushes anyhow. It's a bit difficult to do things via remote from Wellington, but ...

As you have a minimum of Tooling, try this: (might be easier to put the Bike on its side), Centre Punch the Centre of the SwingArm Pivot and drill with a small, say 4mm Drill-Bit. Drill down to a depth that is equal to the thickness of the Frame. Open the Hole up with a successive series of Drill-bits until the SwingArm Pivot is as thin as possible. You may get lucky and have the last Drill-Bit tear out the last vestige of Metal. Flip the Bike over and repeat the process on the other end of the SwingArm Pivot.
If the Pivot is thin enough, you should be able to wrench & twist the Frame away from the Motor/SwingArm Assembly, (might require a Mate or two).

You will now be able to see the SwingArm Bearings, (most likely Bushes), which you can then deal to using the Heat/Penetrating-Oil Cycle. You don't need to heat it up too much, just enough so that you can't touch it, then spray the Penetrating Oil into the seized joint. As the area cools, tap around the area with a small hammer, then do it again, and again ...
Pop down to your local M10 or Bunnings and have a look at their MAPP Gas Torches. Every Workshop should have one ...
If you don't want to buy/borrow a Torch, repeat the process outlined above, but this time drilling down through the SwingArm Bush.

Tedious, yes, but it may save your Butt and get the Project back on track again ...

Good Luck.

firstly, thanks for actual useful advice.
although it doesn't sound like it, this isnt my first bike restoration.
i have built a number of SR500s amongst others over the year, but dont have access to the workshops and tools that i used to now i'm a separated dad etc.
it's been 10 years since i have done anything serious on a bike.

i will follow your suggestions.
i have new taper head bearings,bushes and eccentrics ready to go and can easily get a pivot shaft in the US.
i have 3 motors, so that's covered.
my plan was to strip the bike - powdercoat the frame and only reinstall parts if perfect.
the jackshaft and 4 sprockets all need some work.
tyres are available - and there is an adapter kit available in the US that allows different sized rear wheels.
i know it seems ridiculous, but the bike belonged to a friend that has since passed away, so the bike WILL be restored.
i dont care if take years. it's been in storage for 5 years with me already.
there is a great thread on ADVrider on these;
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=657448&page=122

so im in - untill it's done.
again thanks, and i'll post my progress here.

ken

[Akzle]

thanks for actual useful advice.


hey kev, every other cunt has given you equally useful advice. if you're too much of a muppet to take it... well, go and pay some 'engineer' to do exactly the same things :laugh:

[buggerit]

Here is how I would go about the Restoration/Rebuild ...

1/ Check the Engine, does it run, If not - do you or your Mates have the Skills to make it run?
If not - abandon the Project now.

2/ Check if Tyres are still available to fit. If not - abandon the Project now.

3/ OK, You have decided to continue with this Project, so ...


As I see it from your Photo and description of the problem so far; The SwingArm is inside the Frame, so you can't get to the SwingArm Bearings/Bushes anyhow. It's a bit difficult to do things via remote from Wellington, but ...

As you have a minimum of Tooling, try this: (might be easier to put the Bike on its side), Centre Punch the Centre of the SwingArm Pivot and drill with a small, say 4mm Drill-Bit. Drill down to a depth that is equal to the thickness of the Frame. Open the Hole up with a successive series of Drill-bits until the SwingArm Pivot is as thin as possible. You may get lucky and have the last Drill-Bit tear out the last vestige of Metal. Flip the Bike over and repeat the process on the other end of the SwingArm Pivot.
If the Pivot is thin enough, you should be able to wrench & twist the Frame away from the Motor/SwingArm Assembly, (might require a Mate or two).

You will now be able to see the SwingArm Bearings, (most likely Bushes), which you can then deal to using the Heat/Penetrating-Oil Cycle. You don't need to heat it up too much, just enough so that you can't touch it, then spray the Penetrating Oil into the seized joint. As the area cools, tap around the area with a small hammer, then do it again, and again ...
Pop down to your local M10 or Bunnings and have a look at their MAPP Gas Torches. Every Workshop should have one ...
If you don't want to buy/borrow a Torch, repeat the process outlined above, but this time drilling down through the SwingArm Bush.

Tedious, yes, but it may save your Butt and get the Project back on track again ...

Good Luck.

You still have the swingarm attached to the motor, so grab a 1mm cutoff disc for small grinder and cut the shaft each side of
engine mount,
If you cant cut the outer ends of the shaft, drill a pilot on each end of the shaft, then use a drill larger than shaft to remove material so as to end up flush with outside of chassis, then pop the chassis with a bottle jack to let the swingarm drop out .

[Badcat]

A big press won't help you. If you can't move it with shock impacts, ie a hammer...it's not moving. Heat cycles, penetrating oils, impacts. If those don't work, the pivot bolt becomes sacrificial.
The only difference between you and an engineer is that the engineer knows when to cut his losses and pull out a grinder.

Those bloody things got used on beaches and rivers, the corollary to that is corrosion - as you're finding. I'd bet the frame has internal corrosion too.

Yes. It had a little rust.
Once I strip the frame down and get the 65 layers of rattlecan paint off I'll have a good look.
I have second bike too, but that one is absolutely buggered corrosion wise.
The swingarm doesn't even move!
The motor in the second bike is good, and it has a lot of little bits I need, and it's useful for reference, what bit goes where etc so had actually been a big help.

I'm not looking to offend anyone here and appreciate all of your replies.
It's been a long time since I've been on KB too.

[Badcat]

You still have the swingarm attached to the motor, so grab a 1mm cutoff disc for small grinder and cut the shaft each side of
engine mount,
If you cant cut the outer ends of the shaft, drill a pilot on each end of the shaft, then use a drill larger than shaft to remove material so as to end up flush with outside of chassis, then pop the chassis with a bottle jack to let the swingarm drop out .

Yeah. You're right.
The pivot passing through the motor doesn't help.
I think I will judiciously drill out the pivot and cut the shaft at the motor entry and exit.
Thanks again.
Ken

[Badcat]

https://www.icloud.com/photostream/#A35ON9t3mfwae

[Flip]

Most engineering shops will have a press.

If you were out here you could borrrow my wee 40 tonner.

[jonbuoy]

There´s some nasty deep rust wounds on that frame - are you sure its worth the effort?

[unstuck]

Last one I had seized up like that, I just left it soaking in diesel for a week and it came out easier. Would be a prick getting the whole thing in a press I would imagine.:crazy:

[mhm]

you've certainly had some fair advice so far but i see no actual engineer has put his hand up so i will.i work in otahuhu and would be happy to look over the bike one weekend if you still haven't made any progress or made the decision to cut shaft.cheers

[Badcat]

There´s some nasty deep rust wounds on that frame - are you sure its worth the effort?

That's the spares bike.
I have 2. The frame on the slates bike is absolutely fucked.
The frame I'm using is pretty good.