ZX10 front end shake - trackday - why?

[jafa21]

Hey guys,
I have recently converted my ZX10 into a track bike.

I have had the bike for over a year and its been a standard stock bike. I used to go on track days with the stock bike. I had the suspension set up by Matt from Watson Racing in Kumeu. Apparently he has been trained by Robert Taylor. I have also had the steeringg damper revalved. (made a world of difference)
Before i had the suspension and the steering damper revlaved the front end used to get light under power in 3rd and 4th gear. I assume probably same would happen in first and second. But i am too chicken to do anything silly in 1st and 2nd gear.

After getting it sorted i never had any problems on the road or the track.

Recently after turning my ZX10 into a track bike (all i have done is remove stock fairings and put on race fairings), i had a similar frond end shake and get light under power in 3rd and 4th gear in the same go on track. (i mean i was accelerating in 3rd gear and front end shook and then immediately after i changed gear and stopped for a second and happened again). The damper is tuned halfway and it feels fairly stiff. I can probably go up couple of notches before it gets too stiff to make normal turns.
I am too scared to make it any stiffer.
What do you think the problem could be? Do i need to get the suspension set up again. The bike has had 2 crashes since the last set up and also removal of fairings.
Could the slight weight change have offset it or the crashes?
Please help.

[Asher]

Have you loosened up your triple clamps and axle since you last crashed? The forks might be twisted in the tree.
Front wheel/head bearings ok?

[2smokes]

Start at one end of the bike and check everything. I bet both your testicles it's not worn suspension internals. Tyres, tyre pressure, bearings, wheel align, sag, etc etc. And don't assume it's in the front end. Problems in the rear end can cause head shake.

[nzspokes]

Ive read and heard about that the rider can induce this with harsh gear changes. Im no expert on it but would be worth asking a track riding coach about it.

[jafa21]

After the crash bike was checked out and cleared by a reputable bike mechanic/shop.
They fixed the gear lever (the only problem with the bike) and rode it and deemed it safe and ok to ride with no damage.

I have looked at the bike and i cant see anything out of the ordinary. But i have no idea what i am looking for.
I havent loosened the axle clamp ( i am not even sure what that is). But i dont think i have loosened it cos i havent loosened anything.

I will ask an instructor at my next track day.

[Devil]

Ive read and heard about that the rider can induce this with harsh gear changes. Im no expert on it but would be worth asking a track riding coach about it.

It's not so much the shifting of gears, but poor control inputs in general. When someone is too rough with gear shifting, they typically tense up and grip the bars and go stiff in the arm.

Flap your wings bro and loosen the claws.

Edit: And all that mechanical shit above.

[Stirts]

The bike has had 2 crashes since the last set up and also removal of fairings.

I agree with Devil. Could it be that subconsciously, after your crashes, you could be too grippie?

[madbikeboy]

There was a thread on this a few weeks back (tank slapping it was called) and a guy even posted a video discussion that modifying a bikes suspension can be a cause. Could you not look up the internet to find out what mods work for your particular model of bike? I would find that out first perhaps before employing anyone to do mods they think will work. Maybe some models of bike are more suited to mods than others and you may need to buy another bike.

DON'T TAKE ANY ADVICE FROM CASSINA - SHE'S A FUCKING IDIOT.

What you're describing is that the bars want to shake or weave when the front gets light. This can be from a number of causes, ranging from the personality of the bike, to incorrect tyre pressures, bad tyres, loose bearings, rear wheel out of alignment in the swing arm (don't trust the marks, they're almost always out), too much ride height in the rear (look for spacers), worn headset bearings, forks that are mis-aligned, wrong fork oil heights or weight, front wheel bearings, or even a bent frame or swing arm.

Then, there's the rider inputs as described above. Your position on the bike can also affect the situation.

ZX10R's are generally pretty lively anyhow. I would seriously advise talking to one or two people - Robert Taylor being the top of the list given that he's pretty good at this stuff, Shaun Harris being the second on this list. This is beyond the understanding of your average mechanic.

I also have high trust in the better track day instructors to look at your riding style. Two different riders will get two different views of the same bike if their riding style or weight are different. I prefer a quicker steering bike that allows me to slide the bike - my set up is the complete opposite of my best riding buddy and neither of us can ride the other's race bikes without changes (he's old and far too intelligent to ride like I do). The point is, get the bike set up correctly by someone qualified. Get your style checked out by a coach.

MBB.

[madbikeboy]

There was a thread on this a few weeks back (tank slapping it was called) and a guy even posted a video discussion that modifying a bikes suspension can be a cause. Could you not look up the internet to find out what mods work for your particular model of bike? I would find that out first perhaps before employing anyone to do mods they think will work. Maybe some models of bike are more suited to mods than others and you may need to buy another bike.

Don't fucking comment on shit that is well beyond your limited understanding. You're far too fucking simple to diagnose a complex issue, and the problem is that some poor chump might actually take the shit that falls out of your head seriously. You need another hobby, there must be somewhere where all the other fucking retards can hang out with you without causing damage to the normal people.

[Grumph]

Cassina - please go away.

Two points - how old is the rubber on the bike ? The late hyper sport stuff is very tyre sensitive.

And the old standby - get someone else to ride it who knows what they're doing for a second opinion.

[madbikeboy]

Your the only fucken idiot sport as no where in my post did I give any advise of a technical nature. poster 1 does appear to have already had expert mods done which have NOT worked. If you are going to recommend someone are you going to pay damages if the mods don't work? If not shut the fuck up yourself!!

Damages? There's something really wrong with the way your brain works. If the OP is getting suspension tuning, even by someone qualified, it's a starting point on the track. Otherwise Valentino Rossi et al would turn up with the same bike with zero reworking for every race.

[madbikeboy]

Cassina - please go away.

Two points - how old is the rubber on the bike ? The late hyper sport stuff is very tyre sensitive.

And the old standby - get someone else to ride it who knows what they're doing for a second opinion.

Hyper sport? Yes, even tyre pressure will have an effect, as will tyre temps...

Good advice.

[nzspokes]

It's not so much the shifting of gears, but poor control inputs in general. When someone is too rough with gear shifting, they typically tense up and grip the bars and go stiff in the arm.

Flap your wings bro and loosen the claws.

Edit: And all that mechanical shit above.
Yesterday I had a couple of wobbles out of turn 6. Seems my bike wobbles a bit more with sport tyres on when im a muppet with upshfts. I relaxed a bit and it settled.

But thats me on my bike. Op should be talking to RT or someone in the know.

[sil3nt]

Good to see KB operating at its finest.

[sugilite]

To the OP.
Does it do it on every 3rd to 4th gear change? Or just that specific place in the track? If so, please describe that area of the track. Seal change? Camber change? rough area of seal? In short, what makes that part of the track different? Would help for possible analysis.

[madbikeboy]

You need to read my post again I did not rubbish getting mods done entirely I just got the impression he should look up the internet to find out what mods work for that bike rather than take the advise of an expert who may not have even had experience with the sort of bike he has got.

how do you go about choosing an expert yourself when you need something complex done?

I don't look on the internet to listen to the opinions of morons like you.

In this case, there are acknowledged industry experts, and trained mentors.

[mossy1200]

Describe the two crashes after getting the suspension done. Are we talking couple of low impact slides or bigger crashes?
What did it hit and id it roll etc.

[Grubber]

They are not experts with his type of bike though otherwise he would not be complaining about the bike having had the work done by them now would he? While they may have impressed you with their skill they did not impress him and I bet the cost to him would not have been cheap. Sounds to me like you want him to keep throwing money at them until they get it right which they may never do if they don't know the bike. Moron yourself.

I think what most are trying to say is that the experts ghave done thier bit on certain areas, now it is time to look at other parts that could be contributing to the problem.
Never been too sure as to what your trying to say.
Thinkin you might think "expert" actually means something quite different to what we think it means.

[mossy1200]

All I am trying to say is that on the many forums on the internet there must be a few if he looks them up that gives details on a track setup for his model of bike that works. The way another poster is carrying on you would think if the guys he employed can not give him the results he is after no one can but unless he does an internet search he will never know eh.

Quick search on the interweb fixes all the real world problems. There must be thousands of keyboard warriors with this bikes solve on hand left in a convenient step by step repair format waiting for the OP to find it.

Or it could be the forks are twisted in the headstock from one of the 2 accidents following the suspension and damper upgrades.

[mossy1200]

After getting it sorted i never had any problems on the road or the track.

What do you think the problem could be? Do i need to get the suspension set up again. The bike has had 2 crashes since the last set up and also removal of fairings.
Could the slight weight change have offset it or the crashes?
Please help.

The key is it was good after the set up then crashed twice since and had fairing swap which shouldn't have effected a lot.

[carburator]

go back to basic's first thing is string line the bike, checking the square of the front tire to the rear.
check for tire stagger ( the bike generally crabs with this issue )
check suspension linkages ( and pivots for play )
check headstock play

Just because a Reputable bike shop has checked doesn't mean they know what the fuck they are doing.

[Big Dog]

Could also be that the rider has undergone a little modification.
More aggressive now this is track only?
A bit stiff after 2 crashes?
Rider lost / gained weight?
Spending more time in attack mode?

Sometimes when a rider complains about head shake
In particular corners or at particular speeds you can see them waving their throttle arm between gear shifts like a chicken trying to achieve flight. When you see it you can see all that input translating steering input.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[speights_bud]

Take a few minutes and watch this video, among other things that needed to be remedied his clamps were bent in an accident and as I recall (watched it a few weeks ago) he was experiencing front end wiggle wiggle


https://vimeo.com/107336772

[Premature Accelerato]

Had the same problem on my GSXR when accelerating out of some corners. I just rechecked all my suspension settings and then gave it one more click on the front rebound damping.

[speights_bud]

All I am trying to say is that on the many forums on the internet there must be a few if he looks them up that gives details on a track setup for his model of bike that works. The way another poster is carrying on you would think if the guys he employed can not give him the results he is after no one can but unless he does an internet search he will never know eh.

Why do you think he is here asking on this forum? Otherwise he would be running back to the guy who set it up. If you knew anything about bikes and track setup then you would know that every track is unique. So some fuckwit wannabe in America has no idea how to set up a bike for Taupo.

Weather conditions temperatures etc on every day is different, why do you think the worlds best MotoGP & WSB teams spend days getting a bike set up? The expertise he is looking for is most likely found right here in NZ where the professional tech's and racers have data and research from experience with his bike model and others similar. This is the best way to baseline set his bike for the specific track. Most of these people can be located right here on NZ's friendliest Motorcycle forum :eek:

Oh and FYI this shit (below) shows your ignorance.


...Could you not look up the internet to find out what mods work for your particular model of bike? I would find that out first perhaps before employing anyone to do mods they think will work. Maybe some models of bike are more suited to mods than others and you may need to buy another bike.:rofl:

[nzspokes]

Take a few minutes and watch this video, among other things that needed to be remedied his clamps were bent in an accident and as I recall (watched it a few weeks ago) he was experiencing front end wiggle wiggle



Nice vid, thanks for sharing.

It confirmed some stuff I have thought I had worked out and learned me some new stuff. Very cool.

[pritch]

Could also be that the rider has undergone a little modification.


This is along the lines I was thinking. The correct suspension settings are not written on stone tablets. If the rider puts on, or loses, weight that will effect things. If the ability of the rider improves so that he is going faster that will also effect things. So, of course, will damage to the bike.

I have here a copy of "Sportbike Suspension Tuning - How To Improve Your Motorcycle's Handling and Performance" by Andrew Trevitt and I commend this work to anyone who wants to understand their bike's suspension. (No not my copy, y'all can buy yer own.)

The book contains a suggested course on how to fully understand what effect the various suspension adjustments have. It also contains a trouble shooting guide.

"High frequency headshake on smooth pavement. Likely cause: insufficient trail
Add trail by lowering rear ride height, reducing rear preload, lowering the fork tubes in the triple-clamps, adding front preload, or decreasing triple-clamp offset."

Those suggested solutions are all separated by an "or" not an "and". When altering settings it is best to change just one at a time otherwise you won't know which change worked.

If I may make one other suggestion? Ask a friendly mod to move this to the "Frame Suspension and Final Drive" forum where it's just possible your thread may attract the attention of people who can help, anyway it should attract less attention from people who almost certainly can't. :devil2:

[Reckless]

I loosen the forks on the clamps on the MX bike quite frequently and pump them to resettle them to get rid of any twist from the many offs we have when riding.
I'm bloody sure some days the bike feels different/better after??

Except for the Cassina (miss never wrong) Show :weep: some good suggestions.
Do the measuring and alignment for sure :)
Small suggestion: Grip with the knees and least amount of grip on the bars when powering out, if the bike still does it, its the bike, if it doesn't, its prob you??
That was part of a lesson at superbike school TBH :) Fully cleared up the countersteering myth for me to :)

[madbikeboy]

All I am trying to say is that on the many forums on the internet there must be a few if he looks them up that gives details on a track setup for his model of bike that works. The way another poster is carrying on you would think if the guys he employed can not give him the results he is after no one can but unless he does an internet search he will never know eh.

Fucking stupid cunt. Find somewhere else to deposit your shit.

[speights_bud]

Nice vid, thanks for sharing.

It confirmed some stuff I have thought I had worked out and learned me some new stuff. Very cool.

This is the solution they came up with:

https://vimeo.com/107285874

[R650R]

Its obviously an engine issue. With a ZX10 being ridden hard the front end should never be on the ground long enough to tank slap ;p

[R650R]

Seriously though with the track conversion from road what tyres are you running now??? I remember my GSXR being dead stable on road tyres but with proper triangulated track/race tyres it scared the shit out of me at Pukekohe and became a liability on the road....

[Big Dog]

Seriously though with the track conversion from road what tyres are you running now??? I remember my GSXR being dead stable on road tyres but with proper triangulated track/race tyres it scared the shit out of me at Pukekohe and became a liability on the road....

And what bits came off? Enough to affect the weight bias?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[jafa21]

It's not so much the shifting of gears, but poor control inputs in general. When someone is too rough with gear shifting, they typically tense up and grip the bars and go stiff in the arm.

Flap your wings bro and loosen the claws.

Edit: And all that mechanical shit above.

i think this is very possible. I have noticed i am not that good with gear changes (up and down). I try to do it too fast and violent and end up screwing it up.

[jafa21]

DON'T TAKE ANY ADVICE FROM CASSINA - SHE'S A FUCKING IDIOT.

What you're describing is that the bars want to shake or weave when the front gets light. This can be from a number of causes, ranging from the personality of the bike, to incorrect tyre pressures, bad tyres, loose bearings, rear wheel out of alignment in the swing arm (don't trust the marks, they're almost always out), too much ride height in the rear (look for spacers), worn headset bearings, forks that are mis-aligned, wrong fork oil heights or weight, front wheel bearings, or even a bent frame or swing arm.

Then, there's the rider inputs as described above. Your position on the bike can also affect the situation.

ZX10R's are generally pretty lively anyhow. I would seriously advise talking to one or two people - Robert Taylor being the top of the list given that he's pretty good at this stuff, Shaun Harris being the second on this list. This is beyond the understanding of your average mechanic.

I also have high trust in the better track day instructors to look at your riding style. Two different riders will get two different views of the same bike if their riding style or weight are different. I prefer a quicker steering bike that allows me to slide the bike - my set up is the complete opposite of my best riding buddy and neither of us can ride the other's race bikes without changes (he's old and far too intelligent to ride like I do). The point is, get the bike set up correctly by someone qualified. Get your style checked out by a coach.

MBB.

i will get an instructor to look at my riding next time i am on the track and also possibly get Robert Taylor to look at it. He is doing a seminar soon at spectrum.

[jafa21]

There was a thread on this a few weeks back (tank slapping it was called) and a guy even posted a video discussion that modifying a bikes suspension can be a cause. Could you not look up the internet to find out what mods work for your particular model of bike? I would find that out first perhaps before employing anyone to do mods they think will work. Maybe some models of bike are more suited to mods than others and you may need to buy another bike.

this is very odd advise. BUY A NEW BIKE????

[jafa21]

Cassina - please go away.

Two points - how old is the rubber on the bike ? The late hyper sport stuff is very tyre sensitive.

And the old standby - get someone else to ride it who knows what they're doing for a second opinion.

Tyres were bought about 9 months ago. The manufacturing 6 months max before that. I have done approx 3500kms on them which include 4 track days. They tyres i am running are Dunlop Q3s. I dont think the tyres are the problem. (according to my limited knowledge). They seem fine and are always stored in a garage with no sunlight. Although it spent about a month at spectrum. They usually store the bikes outside and it has been very hot. Can one month in the sun make a difference?

[jafa21]

Hyper sport? Yes, even tyre pressure will have an effect, as will tyre temps...

Good advice.

i run 30/30 tyre pressures. I dont have tyre warmers. I usually warm them up in 1-2 laps.

[jafa21]

Yesterday I had a couple of wobbles out of turn 6. Seems my bike wobbles a bit more with sport tyres on when im a muppet with upshfts. I relaxed a bit and it settled.

But thats me on my bike. Op should be talking to RT or someone in the know.

mine happens after turn 5 on the back straight. happened twice and no other place.

[jafa21]

To the OP.
Does it do it on every 3rd to 4th gear change? Or just that specific place in the track? If so, please describe that area of the track. Seal change? Camber change? rough area of seal? In short, what makes that part of the track different? Would help for possible analysis.

it only happend at my last track day after turn 5. back straight. its pretty flat. i am in second gear at turn 5 and i speed up violently and change to 3rd and change to 4th. i think my violent change could be the problem. but that i thought was a given. Because i am accelerating very fast the front sort of comes up and gets light. (the front didnt actually come up). And then i get a shake. I think this is the only place i am accelerating the hardest. I thought the steering damper revalve solves that issue.

[jafa21]

Describe the two crashes after getting the suspension done. Are we talking couple of low impact slides or bigger crashes?
What did it hit and id it roll etc.

ENJOY :)

Crash 1 - lowside - turn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiWRuadMM2g

Crash 2 - just before turn 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmb7NO_dTM0&feature=youtu.be

[Big Dog]

it only happend at my last track day after turn 5. back straight. its pretty flat. i am in second gear at turn 5 and i speed up violently and change to 3rd and change to 4th. i think my violent change could be the problem. but that i thought was a given. Because i am accelerating very fast the front sort of comes up and gets light. (the front didnt actually come up). And then i get a shake. I think this is the only place i am accelerating the hardest. I thought the steering damper revalve solves that issue.

Dampers dampen.

If you set it so firm as to never have any wiggle at the front steering becomes difficult and under the circumstances you had a head shake before you get a squirming from the rear instead.

That energy has to go somewhere.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[jafa21]

go back to basic's first thing is string line the bike, checking the square of the front tire to the rear.
check for tire stagger ( the bike generally crabs with this issue )
check suspension linkages ( and pivots for play )
check headstock play

Just because a Reputable bike shop has checked doesn't mean they know what the fuck they are doing.

i totally agree that bike shop looking at it doesnt mean anything. I am not capable to check the above things. Any suggestions on how i can get that done. or get a independent opinion.

[Reckless]

it only happend at my last track day after turn 5. back straight. its pretty flat. i am in second gear at turn 5 and i speed up violently and change to 3rd and change to 4th. i think my violent change could be the problem. but that i thought was a given. Because i am accelerating very fast the front sort of comes up and gets light. (the front didnt actually come up). And then i get a shake. I think this is the only place i am accelerating the hardest. I thought the steering damper revalve solves that issue.

Possibly the wheel isnt straight ahead when the weight goes back on it because of your gear change action??

[jafa21]

Could also be that the rider has undergone a little modification.
More aggressive now this is track only?
A bit stiff after 2 crashes?
Rider lost / gained weight?
Spending more time in attack mode?

Sometimes when a rider complains about head shake
In particular corners or at particular speeds you can see them waving their throttle arm between gear shifts like a chicken trying to achieve flight. When you see it you can see all that input translating steering input.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

i could be more aggressive at the back straight - very possible.
i think i might be bit stiff after the crashes.
i havent gained or lost weight.

i do feel its my input thats making it like this as it doesnt happen everytime. but i thought if i get damper revalved no matter what i did the damper will prevent from shaking.
The above comment probably sounds stupid to some. but i dont know what i am talking about so i thats why i am asking here :)

[Big Dog]

it only happend at my last track day after turn 5. back straight. its pretty flat. i am in second gear at turn 5 and i speed up violently and change to 3rd and change to 4th. i think my violent change could be the problem. but that i thought was a given. Because i am accelerating very fast the front sort of comes up and gets light. (the front didnt actually come up). And then i get a shake. I think this is the only place i am accelerating the hardest. I thought the steering damper revalve solves that issue.

A damper only dampens.
If you completely removed all head shake by turning the damper up so far head shake was impossible you would replace the head shake with what feels like squirming from the rear.

All that energy has to go somewhere.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[jafa21]

This is along the lines I was thinking. The correct suspension settings are not written on stone tablets. If the rider puts on, or loses, weight that will effect things. If the ability of the rider improves so that he is going faster that will also effect things. So, of course, will damage to the bike.

I have here a copy of "Sportbike Suspension Tuning - How To Improve Your Motorcycle's Handling and Performance" by Andrew Trevitt and I commend this work to anyone who wants to understand their bike's suspension. (No not my copy, y'all can buy yer own.)

The book contains a suggested course on how to fully understand what effect the various suspension adjustments have. It also contains a trouble shooting guide.

"High frequency headshake on smooth pavement. Likely cause: insufficient trail
Add trail by lowering rear ride height, reducing rear preload, lowering the fork tubes in the triple-clamps, adding front preload, or decreasing triple-clamp offset."

Those suggested solutions are all separated by an "or" not an "and". When altering settings it is best to change just one at a time otherwise you won't know which change worked.

If I may make one other suggestion? Ask a friendly mod to move this to the "Frame Suspension and Final Drive" forum where it's just possible your thread may attract the attention of people who can help, anyway it should attract less attention from people who almost certainly can't. :devil2:

this seems like my problem -
"High frequency headshake on smooth pavement. Likely cause: insufficient trail
Add trail by lowering rear ride height, reducing rear preload, lowering the fork tubes in the triple-clamps, adding front preload, or decreasing triple-clamp offset."
how do i solve it :) i cant do any of the above on my own. so robert taylor then ?

[jafa21]

Seriously though with the track conversion from road what tyres are you running now??? I remember my GSXR being dead stable on road tyres but with proper triangulated track/race tyres it scared the shit out of me at Pukekohe and became a liability on the road....

same tyres as before. Q3s. i had them on before converting the bike

[jafa21]

And what bits came off? Enough to affect the weight bias?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

all the fairings, headlight, indicators, rego plate, mirrors. Speedo is still there.

[jafa21]

Chances are he has already spent $1000s and with all the further advise on here likely to add up to thousands more which may or may not solve the problem it could very well be cheaper to buy a new bike.

i dont want to be rude cos i dont know you or had any past experience with posts. But i agree with the other guys here. Please stop commenting.
I paid $15 bux for somebody's time (15 minutes) to set up my suspension.
I definitely do not need a new bike.
Every rider is different and every track is different. It doesnt mean i need a new bike.

[Big Dog]

i could be more aggressive at the back straight - very possible.
i think i might be bit stiff after the crashes.
i havent gained or lost weight.

i do feel its my input thats making it like this as it doesnt happen everytime. but i thought if i get damper revalved no matter what i did the damper will prevent from shaking.
The above comment probably sounds stupid to some. but i dont know what i am talking about so i thats why i am asking here :)

If I were you I'd go for a ride on another bike or toe and get someone who's opinion you trust to ride yours. If the problem persists across multiple bikes it is likely you. If the trusted rider has a problem on your bike it is likely your bike.
The trouble with track bikes is to properly assess a bike you need to ride it.

Based on your descriptions and having not seen you ride or ridden your bike I'm leaning in favour of rider input being the issue.

This may sound daft but either sit on your bike or a bicycle while it is being supported by friends ( or willing participants if friends are currently in short supply ) with your feet up and mimic the action you know you should be taking.
Does the bike wobble?
Now mentally prepare yourself for a fast right hander with someone coming round the outside.
Is that different?
Tight left into a right into a straight, how is that different?

Hint: if your turning the bars the bike should flop in the direction of the countersteer by the amount you turn the bars. It should be smooth. If you can manage to isolate your movements to just the throttle and gear movements you will get a better picture for how they are affecting your steering.

Even leaning forward more often during cornering changes the outcome of your steering inputs because it changes your weight bias, makes movements in your arms translate more efficiently to the bars and changes your perception of how far you are twisting the throttle. Not to mention changing the level of aggression you natively apply to other inputs.

If you watch the stars of the Moto-GP you barely see their inputs until they get stressed. When you start seeing their inputs you start seeing the bike wobble all over the show but they are not going any faster. If they do this too long they make the crash reel.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

all the fairings, headlight, indicators, rego plate, mirrors. Speedo is still there.

So more from the front than the rear plus a change in the purpose?
Keep I mind if you were still road using it when Rob set it up he would have set it for the road track bias you discussed.
Sounds to me like you need to isolate is this a problem with you or the bike.
Tune accordingly.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[madbikeboy]

i dont want to be rude cos i dont know you or had any past experience with posts. But i agree with the other guys here. Please stop commenting.
I paid $15 bux for somebody's time (15 minutes) to set up my suspension.
I definitely do not need a new bike.
Every rider is different and every track is different. It doesnt mean i need a new bike.

LOL, awesome.

I read some notes that I had from riding ZX10R's from 2006/7/8/9, they included "front end lively, and wants to tuck". I can recall that they were frisky, and that the steering damper had a lot of effect on the bike.

There's not enough information yet to make a determined call - check the basics like (as someone has pointed out before) rear ride height (check for washers on the rear shock, someone might have added ride height), alignment, fork heights, alignment. It's also possible to remove the forks and check them for straightness. Sometimes the forks don't look bent, but even a small amount of stiction will cause problems. Once you've established everything is straight and true, and you don't have 30mm of fork through the yokes (don't laugh, I've seen it), then you can start to isolate. Steering damper exchanged for the stock one would be my first move.

Small changes in suspension make huge differences. Again, there's a reason why everyone goes to Robert Taylor and Shaun Harris. Both are very experienced at suspension set up.

Finally, as everyone has already commented, rider inputs make a big difference - gripping the tank with your thighs (use stomp grip) and holding the bars very relaxed is how I ride; this stops unwanted inputs going through the bars. It also means small headshakes don't end up in uncontrollable tank slappers (for the most part, I've had very high speed slappers that were interesting to ride through).

Good luck.

[aderino4]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqpVtJQxFSc


Worth watching..

With the weather being really good recently; you may have inadvertently be more aggressive on the throttle, therefore rear squats more and thus the head shake.

I noticed the 2 videos were in April and November which have cooler weather.

More heat = stickier tyre = more grip = less rear wheel slide/give = more rear end push = less weight on the front = more prone to head shake

Dont' mask the issue by turning up your damper.

[cs363]

@cassina Please stop commenting.

Best advice ever on KB.





Sadly, it'll be ignored.

[Big Dog]

Chances are he has already spent $1000s and with all the further advise on here likely to add up to thousands more which may or may not solve the problem it could very well be cheaper to buy a new bike.
Chances are if he buys more hardware to fix a problem he has not isolated it will be very expensive.
That includes buying a new bike before confirming he is not the problem.

Many problems can be solved by adjusting the most important nut on the bike. The one that joins the seat to the handlebars.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[sugilite]

it only happend at my last track day after turn 5. back straight. its pretty flat. i am in second gear at turn 5 and i speed up violently and change to 3rd and change to 4th. i think my violent change could be the problem. but that i thought was a given. Because i am accelerating very fast the front sort of comes up and gets light. (the front didnt actually come up). And then i get a shake. I think this is the only place i am accelerating the hardest. I thought the steering damper revalve solves that issue.

My personal feeling is it is not so much a suspension setup issue, more likely a possible slight misalignment (and a wee bit of ham fisted riding). So as others have suggested, loosen the triple clamps and then string line the wheels to at least get a basic idea if things are straight. (plenty of youtube videos on how to string line).

I watched the two videos you posted and the following is not a criticism (and you may already know anyway), more an observation. The first one where you lose the rear was to much gas for the tyres you are running. You can hear the tyre start to spin but you did not do anything to mitigate that. The 2nd one was a confidence one. If you are going to pass someone on the outside, you have to really commit and not second guess yourself (and have the skills to back the move). Your acceleration was such you could of easily slipped past him even though he was drifting.

You have chosen a very, very tough task master to learn your track skills on. I have raced ZX10R's at the top level, track ridden and road ridden them. They reward a curious combination of aggression mixed with finesse. You need to dominate the bike in a physical way but apply that strength and domination with a smooth fluid style.
I have worked with a guy at a track day that rides a 08 10R and I focused on initially slowing him down and focusing him on a fluid smooth style, looking through the corners and focusing well ahead. He was convinced he was not going much better until the organizers came to his pit saying he was now too fast for the group he was in and bumped him up to the next one.


Assuming your bike is straight, I'm pretty sure your not riding past the limits that your current setup would allow. So yes, focus on your riding, do some work with coaches and you will be flying in no time.

[jafa21]

My personal feeling is it is not so much a suspension setup issue, more likely a possible slight misalignment (and a wee bit of ham fisted riding). So as others have suggested, loosen the triple clamps and then string line the wheels to at least get a basic idea if things are straight. (plenty of youtube videos on how to string line).

I watched the two videos you posted and the following is not a criticism (and you may already know anyway), more an observation. The first one where you lose the rear was to much gas for the tyres you are running. You can hear the tyre start to spin but you did not do anything to mitigate that. The 2nd one was a confidence one. If you are going to pass someone on the outside, you have to really commit and not second guess yourself (and have the skills to back the move). Your acceleration was such you could of easily slipped past him even though he was drifting.

You have chosen a very, very tough task master to learn your track skills on. I have raced ZX10R's at the top level, track ridden and road ridden them. They reward a curious combination of aggression mixed with finesse. You need to dominate the bike in a physical way but apply that strength and domination with a smooth fluid style.
I have worked with a guy at a track day that rides a 08 10R and I focused on initially slowing him down and focusing him on a fluid smooth style, looking through the corners and focusing well ahead. He was convinced he was not going much better until the organizers came to his pit saying he was now too fast for the group he was in and bumped him up to the next one.


Assuming your bike is straight, I'm pretty sure your not riding past the limits that your current setup would allow. So yes, focus on your riding, do some work with coaches and you will be flying in no time.

Hi thanks for the tips. I definitely agree both the crashes could have been avoided and due to my limited skill i crashed. Yes the bike is very violent and i need to be less aggressive and be more smooth before i can get faster.

[mossy1200]

ENJOY :)

Crash 1 - lowside - turn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiWRuadMM2g

Crash 2 - just before turn 5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmb7NO_dTM0&feature=youtu.be

Don't look like big hits but at the end of the first looks like clipon hit the track edge. Possible triple clamp not aligned now. It would need be off much to cause issues when the front wheel is light.

[jafa21]

Don't look like big hits but at the end of the first looks like clipon hit the track edge. Possible triple clamp not aligned now. It would need be off much to cause issues when the front wheel is light.

it wouldnt need to be off much or it would. sorry bit confused

[mossy1200]

it wouldnt need to be off much or it would. sorry bit confused

Would not. I think spell check changed it.

[carburator]

just a though, have you checked that your front wheel weights are still there?

[400sm]

I suspect your steering damper aint working properly no more.
The 2 crashes will be the reason.

[jafa21]

So i went and saw Robert Taylor to get him to set up my suspension on Friday. He also said he feels something is bent. He said it doesnt feel the front fork is coming back up freely. He said to get it checked up and the triple clamp. He said it doesnt feel too bad but to get it checked. Although i did mention others think the forks are bent and it could be that i put the idea in his head.
I dont have the knowledge, experience or tools to check it my self. I definitely wont be doing that.
The bike was cleared by spectrum. I will call up spectrum and ask them but i am sure i will have to pay for the labour to get it checked. At the time of the insurance claim this wasnt picked up. Is there anyway i can get that checked out and rectified without me paying? What are my options?

[nzspokes]

So i went and saw Robert Taylor to get him to set up my suspension on Friday. He also said he feels something is bent. He said it doesnt feel the front fork is coming back up freely. He said to get it checked up and the triple clamp. He said it doesnt feel too bad but to get it checked. Although i did mention others think the forks are bent and it could be that i put the idea in his head.
I dont have the knowledge, experience or tools to check it my self. I definitely wont be doing that.
The bike was cleared by spectrum. I will call up spectrum and ask them but i am sure i will have to pay for the labour to get it checked. At the time of the insurance claim this wasnt picked up. Is there anyway i can get that checked out and rectified without me paying? What are my options?

Why didnt you leave it with Robert?

[jafa21]

Why didnt you leave it with Robert?

What do you mean? I got it checked out at Hampton Downs. He is here for few trackdays setting up suspensions.
His workshop is in New Plymouth and I am in Auckland

[nzspokes]

What do you mean? I got it checked out at Hampton Downs. He is here for few trackdays setting up suspensions.
His workshop is in New Plymouth and I am in Auckland
You didn't say he was up here.

[jafa21]

You didn't say he was up here.

ya sorry :)

[BMWST?]

the forks do not have to be bent.The front wheel has taken a hit to one side and has twisted the front end slightly.To rectify this you loosen the bolts that clamp the forks to the bike steering head(via the triple clamps).Loosen them just enough so that they are "loose" but not so loose that he fork tubes will slide up through them.With the front wheel against something solid pump the front up and down .This wil lpossibly untwist the front end.Reighten the clamps making sure both forks are aligned for height

[Reckless]

the forks do not have to be bent.The front wheel has taken a hit to one side and has twisted the front end slightly.To rectify this you loosen the bolts that clamp the forks to the bike steering head(via the triple clamps).Loosen them just enough so that they are "loose" but not so loose that he fork tubes will slide up through them.With the front wheel against something solid pump the front up and down .This will possibly untwist the front end. Re-tighten the clamps making sure both forks are aligned for height

He should have already tried that BMWST if he's been applying the ideas from this thread well before last Friday when he went to Robert?


I loosen the forks on the clamps on the MX bike quite frequently and pump them to resettle them to get rid of any twist from the many offs we have when riding.

So the forks should have been resettled and aligned in the clamps before Rob saw it I'd Guess?

[jafa21]

He should have already tried that BMWST if he's been applying the ideas from this thread well before last Friday when he went to Robert?



So the forks should have been resettled and aligned in the clamps before Rob saw it I'd Guess?

no i havent tried anything.. i am not comfortable paying around with my suspension, let alone loosen and tighten clamps etc. i dont even know some of the parts/clamps you guys are talking about...
i know, i am pretty stupid when it comes to these kind of things.
i rather somebody have a look at it then play around with it myself.

[Reckless]

no i havent tried anything.. i am not comfortable paying around with my suspension, let alone loosen and tighten clamps etc. i dont even know some of the parts/clamps you guys are talking about...
i know, i am pretty stupid when it comes to these kind of things.
i rather somebody have a look at it then play around with it myself.

All good Jafa :) better safe then sorry at ZX10r speeds :)
Sounds like you need track day buddy with a little experience. Buddy up with a few at the next one?
Do AMCC or anyone do Garage nights or someone from here :)

[MacPedro]

no i havent tried anything.. i am not comfortable paying around with my suspension, let alone loosen and tighten clamps etc. i dont even know some of the parts/clamps you guys are talking about...
i know, i am pretty stupid when it comes to these kind of things.
i rather somebody have a look at it then play around with it myself.

Download the ZX10R manual from the ZX10R forum. Good detailed info on how to do most things for your bike.

[Big Dog]

no i havent tried anything.. i am not comfortable paying around with my suspension, let alone loosen and tighten clamps etc. i dont even know some of the parts/clamps you guys are talking about...
i know, i am pretty stupid when it comes to these kind of things.
i rather somebody have a look at it then play around with it myself.

You need to make up your mind. If you want someone else to look you need to pay. If you don't want to pay you need to learn how to do a few of these things.
I doubt it would be hard if you said "I don't know how to do what you are saying could anyone show me?" to get someone to pop over to yours to help you but if you want expert help you pay experts to know this stuff for you.

That said if a reputable company has looked / done repairs and not found the fault I would expect them to take a closer look at a fault I identified post repair.

Small details can get missed when looking at the whole bike. Rechecks would be a standard practice with most workshops after a crash repair because they don't extensively road test them unless you say "it pulls a little to the right and skips in 3rd gear corners" or other specific symptom to look for.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[jafa21]

I went to Hampton downs yesterday and didnt get the same head shake.
I am thinking more and more its me not being smooth. I am working on that and its making a difference.

I prefer a professional to look at the bike.
My question was regarding how it works with insurance has already paid out and if there is a problem who would be liable?
Insurance or bike shop. Getting it checked out is one thing, but i am wondering how it will work if there is an actual problem.
i am guessing i would have signed off some papers when i got paid out limiting them from any liabilities...

[Tazz]

Good work on the smoother riding.


i would have signed off some papers when i got paid out limiting them from any liabilities...

I'd say this. The time to double check and get a second opinion was back before you accepted their assessment I would have thought.

[madbikeboy]

I prefer a professional to look at the bike.
My question was regarding how it works with insurance has already paid out and if there is a problem who would be liable?
Insurance or bike shop. Getting it checked out is one thing, but i am wondering how it will work if there is an actual problem.
i am guessing i would have signed off some papers when i got paid out limiting them from any liabilities...

Forget all that BS - did you follow Robert Taylor's advice and check the forks for straightness? Stiction and a bent fork will give shakes for sure. Just because the issue didn't present itself at a different track doesn't mean the problem is solved.

[nzspokes]

Forget all that BS - did you follow Robert Taylor's advice and check the forks for straightness? Stiction and a bent fork will give shakes for sure. Just because the issue didn't present itself at a different track doesn't mean the problem is solved.

Well yes. No way in hell I would be on the track with a bike I didnt know was right or not. Apart from the fact the rider may get hurt, they could go down in front of another rider who gets hurt or worse.

[rocketman1]

I have experienced slight head shake on a couple of my sports bikes, tyres seemed a little deflated so a bit more air and never seemed to have it again.
I know from experience that you need to get your wheels in line. ie back wheel must align with front, this is easier said than done. Also the front forks needs to be set plumb in the triple clamps, they can be incorrectly tightened so your forks are not quite aligned correctly.
As already mentioned there are many things that can cause head shake, getting everything tight and aligned is a good place to start.

[FROSTY]

I went to Hampton downs yesterday and didnt get the same head shake.
I am thinking more and more its me not being smooth. I am working on that and its making a difference.

I prefer a professional to look at the bike.
My question was regarding how it works with insurance has already paid out and if there is a problem who would be liable?
Insurance or bike shop. Getting it checked out is one thing, but i am wondering how it will work if there is an actual problem.
i am guessing i would have signed off some papers when i got paid out limiting them from any liabilities...
mate can you give an indication as to where on the track you are getting headshake.-or should I say were.
if it helps at all I was getting a fair bit on the 600 exiting T3 and exiting the hairpin.
Nothing alarming just a few flaps and it settled. -I know for certain I was rough as guts on my shifts and had weight a bit too far back .
As I caught up with the bike the slapping reduced to sod all.
Take this as intended-relating personal experience not an expert opinion.