Learning to ride on gravel/dirt

[MarkH]

I've been riding on sealed roads so long that I've had to learn and practise the very different way of riding a bike on lower traction surfaces.

Some thoughts after 600+kms in 2 days with a lot of it over gravel roads:
Riding all around the Coromandel peninsular including Port Charles/Shelly Beach and Port Jackon/Fletcher Bay (camped overnight at DOC campsite at Fletcher Bay) I have now become quite a bit more comfortable with gravel riding. It is definitely a bit different to riding on a sealed road as far as cornering technique goes, so racking up a bunch of kms was definitely a good idea to get the hang of it.
I did find that weighting the outside peg (like taught in the NGARNZ training day) made pretty much no difference, just making sure I leant my body weight out while leaning the bike in made all the difference in the world for getting the bike to go around corners easily.
It seems to me that brakes, throttle & clutch combined with body positioning are the key things to master for off-road riding, peg weighting seems to be very little or no importance (definitely more useful to concentrate on the other stuff first) except where it helps to get your body weight leant the right way.
This weekend should be good for gaining a lot more experience with off-road track riding.
Hopefully not too much extra experience in picking up the bike though!

If I have grasped the concept correctly the idea with your body position is to keep yourself as upright as possible while the bike is leant into corners.
i.e. Lean back going downhill, lean forward going uphill, lean out on corners while pushing the bike into the corners.
This certainly seems to work well in practise with the bike going around a corner much easier when making the bike lean in while I lean my body weight out from the bike.
On the road you can corner faster by leaning in on corners but on loose surfaces there isn't the lateral grip and the bike would slide out very easily using that road riding technique.
Even when sitting on the seat riding on faster gravel roads I found that shifting my bum and leaning out on the corners helped heaps.

One thing that irks me a little is when I keep reading about how standing on the pegs lowers the CoG (or CoM), WTH?
Clearly standing up will raise the CoG, this should be obvious at a glance.
Obviously standing up on the pegs DOES gain significant advantages in how quickly and easily you can move your body weight around as well as letting your legs act as shock absorbers over rough terrain. This is the true advantage of standing on the pegs instead of sitting on the seat.

I've got a lot to learn and I look forward to coming to grips with this new (to me) type of riding!

[gwynfryn]

When you are sitting most weight is on the seat which is higher than the pegs. When you are standing weight is on the pegs which is lower than the seat. The bikes cog is lower.
The main advantage of standing is that the bike can move freely around under you.
You gain traction/drive by really weighting the pegs ,forcing the outside peg down when cornering.
And you can easily get weight over the front .
If you have to sit down sit as far forward as you can and keep your elbows up.

I never sit when riding off road but thats different to riding on gravel.
Spend some time riding off road and riding on gravel will seem very easy.

[Akzle]

i had to unlearn most of that shit going from more-gravel to road-riding.

as pointed out, if the main of your weight is on your arse, putting a bit of thigh muscle into your peg wont do much.

also, dangle your inside leg.

[Night Falcon]

You will discover the benefits of weighting your pegs once you get better at weighting your pegs - and the best way to do that is standing on them. Takes time to learn how to move a bike around on loose surfaces especially at speed....I'm still learning after 30yrs of riding mostly off road.

[Woodman]

my 2 cents.

I weight the inside peg or lean into corners, weighting the inside edge of the seat on gravel. Works real good, and seems more in control to me.

Same with standing, weight the inside peg.

[clint640]

When you are sitting most weight is on the seat which is higher than the pegs. When you are standing weight is on the pegs which is lower than the seat. The bikes cog is lower.
.

[ENGINEER_NERD] When you stand up the CoG of the bike/rider combo gets higher sorry. [/ENGINEER NERD] This is not so relevant though as by standing you can move your weight around more & make the bike go where you want it to much easier.



also, dangle your inside leg.

Don't 'dangle it' You just look like a dick. If you feel the need to stick a leg out, which should really only be on tight, slow turns or when doing big drifts, thrust that appendage as far forward as you can, you want your toe next to your front axle. Put your race face on, get your head over the bars, get your balls on the gas cap & keep your elbows up. It's all about getting weight over the front for sharp turns.

Cheers
Clint

[MarkH]

[ENGINEER_NERD]This is not so relevant though as by standing you can move your weight around more & make the bike go where you want it to much easier.


I think this is exactly why standing helps so much.
Everyone know standing makes it easier to get the bike to do stuff, but many wrongly attribute it to the lowering of the CoG where it is actually due to freeing up the rider to move his/her weight around more and create some independence of movement compared to the bike.
Of course doing the right things for the wrong reasons still works to give the desired result, but I'm the sort of person that likes to understand what is happing and why it is happening.

Oh well, heading down to Taumarunui soon, I guess I'll see several of you guys down there.

[gwynfryn]

[ENGINEER_NERD] When you stand up the CoG of the bike/rider combo gets higher sorry. [/ENGINEER NERD] This is not so relevant though as by standing you can move your weight around more & make the bike go where you want it to much easier.



Don't 'dangle it' You just look like a dick. If you feel the need to stick a leg out, which should really only be on tight, slow turns or when doing big drifts, thrust that appendage as far forward as you can, you want your toe next to your front axle. Put your race face on, get your head over the bars, get your balls on the gas cap & keep your elbows up. It's all about getting weight over the front for sharp turns.

Cheers
Clint

Thats why I said the bikes CoG not bike/rider.
Try riding full lock circles sitting down compared standing up.

[Padmei]

The most important factor on cornering well on gravel is balls - the bigger the better.

[Waihou Thumper]

Are we trying to slide, or look like a Dakar rider or drift?
I guess it is like riding on any surface? Ride at what you are comfortable with.
There are always going to be better riders than you, so just ride to the conditions of the road.

If it is very twisty, marbles and a real struggle to stay straight aka south island somewhere:)
slow down, Nope, go faster, that seems to work....

Or, if you see a great big dust cloud ahead, this means the rider is balls out and it is a nice bit of straight road....aka south Island and the Waikato:)

What gets me and most is the off camber at corners....Nowt you can do about that!

[Padmei]

What gets me and most is the off camber at corners....Nowt you can do about that!

Yes exactly that's where balls come into it. The Taranaki hard core crew have that covered.

[george formby]

What gets me and most is the off camber at corners....Nowt you can do about that!

LOL. The place where practice pays off. For some bizarre reason I ride a fair bit of gravel on my T30 road rubber attired TDM, the only lard arse I ride.
Body position, counter balancing, throttle control & confidence in physics is the be all and end all. At times I'm climbing around the bike like a monkey, deep gravel is the worst, it just plows.
Weight forward, weight out, throttle on, destination in sight.
The TDM is to heavy for foot out shenanigans, most adventure bikes are, so I stand up & control traction with my body weight. More effective & easier to hang outside the turn & keep a steady throttle.
T'was not that long ago OP that I was crapping myself on the loose despite a trail riding back ground. Good on ya.
To improve my ability I've decided to cheat & bought a trials bike. Hardest thing I've ever tried to ride properly but the techniques translate automatically to my other bikes.

[Tazz]

For just run of the mill gravel roads I find it way easier to just sit.
Im still learning, and on a lighter bike, but when I try and slide standing it all turns to shit quicker. Much faster sitting.

No arguing over rough stuff is better standing. It's like having an extra set of suspenders :D
I find I just hover where I need to rather than skyscraper it though, but I think that's partly due to just being used to my bars being swept back so their hard to position over.

[Box'a'bits]

For just run of the mill gravel roads I find it way easier to just sit.
Im still learning, and on a lighter bike, but when I try and slide standing it all turns to shit quicker. Much faster sitting.

No arguing over rough stuff is better standing. It's like having an extra set of suspenders :D
I find I just hover where I need to rather than skyscraper it though, but I think that's partly due to just being used to my bars being swept back so their hard to position over.
And that's the next lesson. Setting up the bikes ergonomics properly. There is a compromise between sitting & standing. Gus's stance is weighted (get it?) to towards standing...

[Tazz]

And that's the next lesson. Setting up the bikes ergonomics properly. There is a compromise between sitting & standing. Gus's stance is weighted (get it?) to towards standing...

Too right. Have to say though I never get tired or sore arms when chewing the road (or off road really) miles partly because of em. Will have to ask Peetey what bars they are one day.
On the flip side to being a bit awkward standing sometimes, particularly moderate uphills, they make really steep downhills an absolute breeze.

[dino3310]

standing sitting outside weight sitting standing aaaargh fuck it mate just ride like a nana it won't matter how you position yourself, theres enough speed freaks on here.:laugh:

[clint640]

What gets me and most is the off camber at corners....Nowt you can do about that!

Yeah, I still wobble around some loose off camber corners like a kid that's just graduated from the tricycle to a 2 wheeler :baby: One thing I found that helps is looking right around the corner, everybody knows you're supposed to look where you want to go, but try & look a long way ahead, works for me anyway.

Cheers
Clint

[R650R]

Nothing beats time in the hot seat. Just go ride, preferably alone and slowly.
You don't need the distraction and the dust clouds from group riding when getting used to gravel.
Get any braking done early and get on the gas early. If in doubt more throttle fixes just about anything, especially if your about to crash anyway, it often picks back up those front end tucks/sledges.

[tri boy]

Lets talk about tyre selection, then engine oil:dodge:

[bart]

Nothing beats time in the hot seat. Just go ride, preferably alone and slowly.
You don't need the distraction and the dust clouds from group riding when getting used to gravel.
Get any braking done early and get on the gas early. If in doubt more throttle fixes just about anything, especially if your about to crash anyway, it often picks back up those front end tucks/sledges.

Good advice here.

Every road surface is different, so don’t over think it, just do it.

[Night Falcon]

Good advice here.

Every road surface is different, so don’t over think it, just do it.

I know I don't do a lot of thinking when I ride....I have a more take it as it comes approach :scratch:

[Oscar]

Yeah, I still wobble around some loose off camber corners like a kid that's just graduated from the tricycle to a 2 wheeler :baby: One thing I found that helps is looking right around the corner, everybody knows you're supposed to look where you want to go, but try & look a long way ahead, works for me anyway.

Cheers
Clint

Looking ahead was the lesson that added the most speed back in the day riding enduro's.
It still works for any type of riding.

The most dangerous things are 1) target fixation -"oh, I'd better watch out for that drain by concentrating on it...ouch" and 2) trying to keep up - arriving at the next corner and having the other guys wait 30 seconds is way better than the other guys having to call a rescue helicopter.

I'm also a bit concerned with all this talk of standing up.
Standing up is a great way to go really fast on rough terrain, but I'm not sure it adds much on gravel.
Moving around on the bike, like getting your weight forward on the corners is much more important.
Finally a lot of what we refer to as "gravel" is actually a couple of hard packed dirt tracks with gravel in the middle.
Most of the time (esp. in the dry), this provides almost as much traction as a sealed road.

[eldog]

OK, I have always been interested in trying this.
What sort of fitness required for a starter.
Should I get some initial training?
Thinking along the lines of gravel riding rather than hardcore offroad at present.
Anything a NOOB (and a road rider Noob) should be aware of (except the addiction)
I still have to protect 2 recent injuries so will be taking it slow.

I find putting some weight on the pegs even while sitting down helps enormously to steady the bike.
tones the legs which is a nice benefit:apumpin:

[george formby]

Fitness? What is this you speak of?
For us, the greater physical, and consequently mental input riding gravel, causes over heating rather than anything else. I've had jelly legs after riding the TDM through a few k's of deep gravel but I'm unsure if that was exertion or fear.
I think this thread covers the basics to get out their. Take it easy, look were you want to go and a bit of throttle is your friend. Do not look at the scenery on down hill hairpins.
Oh, gravel roads are public roads so expect the odd campervan or sideways ute.

[MD]

I'm surprised no nerds have come on hear with recommended tyre pressures specific to each size of gravel stones by diameters, which seems to be the pancea for all biking matters.

I am surprised how well some modern road bikes cope with gravel these days. My Daytona 675 was amazing blasting along rough gravel. Took me up the hill climb to Waiuta twice at a good pace considering it had sports tyres.

[McWild]

I'm surprised no nerds have come on hear with recommended tyre pressures specific to each size of gravel stones by diameters, which seems to be the pancea for all biking matters.

I am surprised how well some modern road bikes cope with gravel these days. My Daytona 675 was amazing blasting along rough gravel. Took me up the hill climb to Waiuta twice at a good pace considering it had sports tyres.

Man, big fat sticky sports tyres are amazing for gravel. But they get ripped to shreds.

Source: EXC450 motard on GPR A-12s.

[Tazz]

I'm surprised no nerds have come on hear with recommended tyre pressures specific to each size of gravel stones by diameters, which seems to be the pancea for all biking matters.

I am surprised how well some modern road bikes cope with gravel these days. My Daytona 675 was amazing blasting along rough gravel. Took me up the hill climb to Waiuta twice at a good pace considering it had sports tyres.

http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/y0!.gif


http://i1.getwestlondon.co.uk/incoming/article7072109.ece/binary/thunderbirds-brainsJPG.jpg

I air the front down from 30 something odd to mid 20's or lower on my little DR to make it less skittery and enjoy/usemuchlesseffort easy gravel riding way more since I started doing it.
For just gravel on a heavier bike I can see how it might be seen as a waste of time but on a wee one it's great.

Not quite as nerdy as you'd probably hope :laugh:

[george formby]

I air the front down from 30 something odd to mid 20's or lower on my little DR to make it less skittery and enjoy/usemuchlesseffort easy gravel riding way more since I started doing it.
For just gravel on a heavier bike I can see how it might be seen as a waste of time but on a wee one it's great.

Not quite as nerdy as you'd probably hope :laugh:

Wee ones are just great on gravel. Skinny tires, light, responsive. You make little bikes move and stop big bikes moving IMHO. I get a bit lurid on the DT but the TDM is all about being smooth & looking ahead. If I get it wrong on the DT I can keep a handle on it but if the TDM goes wrong it stays wrong so I take my time. Either way, I love riding both bikes on the roads less traveled.. Always a buzz.

[tri boy]

OK, I have always been interested in trying this.
What sort of fitness required for a starter.
Should I get some initial training?


Intense training is offered by Oscar and tri boy at the most convenient ale house to all.:drinknsin
You will have to pick up the tab, as I'm broke, and Oscar is is tighter than a nun's nasty.:laugh:

[eldog]

Fitness? What is this you speak of?
For us, the greater physical, and consequently mental input riding gravel, causes over heating rather than anything else. I've had jelly legs after riding the TDM through a few k's of deep gravel but I'm unsure if that was exertion or fear.
I think this thread covers the basics to get out their. Take it easy, look were you want to go and a bit of throttle is your friend. Do not look at the scenery on down hill hairpins.
Oh, gravel roads are public roads so expect the odd campervan or sideways ute.

Rhetorical question, I already knew the answer, but am too dumb to realise it.
Got a bit to do on physical fitness, yes it was mental fitness I will have to work on, mostly confidence and knowing what to do (eg flat tyre). I ant stupid just no confidence part of why I want to try this stuff.
Understand what you say, sounds good, just need to get bike to suit.
going to get some training and instruction and will see if it's what I want to try further.
i already think it's the go, I am doing it for me, the experience and enjoying doing something I have never done before. Not really a outgoing person, but want to try, before I cant standup.
thanks for the instruction, I can be determined and carry thru to complete stuff no matter what the problems. Just lacking knowledge and experience. See you out there....
that sideways ute might have been me:innocent: it's been me on a few sealed public roads.

Sorry Tri Boy haven't had a beer for ages...... Training

[awa355]

I'm going to be covering a few k's on gravel today (sat 28th) in the Rotorua area. On the little 250 cruiser, that should prove interesting. I know it is not meant for gravel, but fuck it!, if gravel is between me and where I want to go, then the bloody bike (and me) will just have to live with it. :shit:

What gravel I have ridden on my previous cruiser (xvs650), I found very little feedback from the front end. My 100cc scooter which was all I had to ride for two years loved the gravel, apart from corrugations.

[MarkH]

OK, I have always been interested in trying this.

For me, I am playing with dual sport riding for many reasons:
- For the fun of it!
- For the challenge of something new
- For the ability of seeing more of our fantastic country by not being limited to just the sealed roads

I don't have off-road riding experience so I'm a total newby with this stuff, but I'm keen to learn and having been shown a bit of basic theory I'm racking up a bit of practise kms.
Heaps of gravel riding around the Colville peninsular (up passed Coromandel) has helped a heap for my confidence riding on gravel.
Last weekends 42nd traverse ride added a lot of useful experience riding demanding tracks (42nd traverse, Fisher's track, Old Whangamomona road).

I want to travel all over NZ over the next bunch of years and I want the ability to ride damn near anywhere that is rideable.
I don't want to be avoiding gravel because it is painfully slow to ride on with my ST1300, if my exploring will include a bunch of gravel then the DR should be fine with that.
For trips with just sealed roads and for riding to work and back the ST1300 is fine, fantastic even.
But why should I only be limited to that type of trip?

Get yourself a good dual sport bike, capable tyres, some knowledge - then go out and get some experience and enjoy the fuck out of the riding while you are at it!

[eldog]

For me, I am playing with dual sport riding for many reasons:
- For the fun of it!
- For the challenge of something new
- For the ability of seeing more of our fantastic country by not being limited to just the sealed roads

I don't have off-road riding experience so I'm a total newby with this stuff, but I'm keen to learn and having been shown a bit of basic theory I'm racking up a bit of practise kms.
Heaps of gravel riding around the Colville peninsular (up passed Coromandel) has helped a heap for my confidence riding on gravel.
Last weekends 42nd traverse ride added a lot of useful experience riding demanding tracks (42nd traverse, Fisher's track, Old Whangamomona road).

I want to travel all over NZ over the next bunch of years and I want the ability to ride damn near anywhere that is rideable.
I don't want to be avoiding gravel because it is painfully slow to ride on with my ST1300, if my exploring will include a bunch of gravel then the DR should be fine with that.
For trips with just sealed roads and for riding to work and back the ST1300 is fine, fantastic even.
But why should I only be limited to that type of trip?

Get yourself a good dual sport bike, capable tyres, some knowledge - then go out and get some experience and enjoy the fuck out of the riding while you are at it!

Sounds like the plan, I am just a bit slow and careful but will get there eventually.
if it's going to go wrong then it will happen to me.
no worries learning, it is what it's about. Got to sort out a few outstanding things I have promised to others. Then it will be thunderbirds are GO
in the meantime it's the trusty Scorpio......

[Big Dog]

Scorpio would be a fine steed for gravel. The gnarlier stuff not so much but the style of bike lends itself well to rutted gravel roads and track. Just getting a taste would be plenty of bike.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[george formby]

Sounds like the plan, I am just a bit slow and careful but will get there eventually.
if it's going to go wrong then it will happen to me.
no worries learning, it is what it's about. Got to sort out a few outstanding things I have promised to others. Then it will be thunderbirds are GO
in the meantime it's the trusty Scorpio......

Slow and careful. Good. Don't look at the scenery until you can move your hips without thinking about it.

Bikes like your Scorpio are thrashed in their thousands across Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Places where our gravel roads would be considered a luxury.
If Osama Tenzing Mugabe can carry his whole family and all they possess over goat tracks on one I'm sure you will have a ball.
Adventure riding is relative.

[eldog]

Slow and careful. Good. Don't look at the scenery until you can move your hips without thinking about it.

Bikes like your Scorpio are thrashed in their thousands across Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Places where our gravel roads would be considered a luxury.
If Osama Tenzing Mugabe can carry his whole family and all they possess over goat tracks on one I'm sure you will have a ball.
Adventure riding is relative.

Moving my hips is the one thing I like doing when riding the Scorpio, when I am in the mood I like to move all over the bike, feels so natural. Even though I ant the most flexible person, I find it very normal. I keep the bike upright while I move about. The bike is so light makes it easy to control. Yet to do any countersteering or leaning of the bike.:eek5: It's what saved me on a bigger bike.

I don't thrash my gear unless necessity requires it. I keep it serviced and generally clean.
done a few ks outpassed Big Dogs playground on my own and loved it. Not fast but learnt a lot. The skinny tyres make for interesting sensations as it sinks and slides into unseen ruts below the gravel. Generally keep head up and move weight around to suit. Mate of mine reckons I move like an offroad rider should:whistle:.

i leave the tyre pressure as is, they are road tyres with tubes in cast rims

[nzspokes]

http://d26ya5yqg8yyvs.cloudfront.net/y0!.gif



I air the front down from 30 something odd to mid 20's or lower on my little DR to make it less skittery and enjoy/usemuchlesseffort easy gravel riding way more since I started doing it.
For just gravel on a heavier bike I can see how it might be seen as a waste of time but on a wee one it's great.

Not quite as nerdy as you'd probably hope :laugh:

Meh, 12psi and keep it on the pipe. :Punk: