The rules.

[Drew]

Something was raised in the ESE thread and I thought I'd stir some shit.


If you saw him clearly go down why did YOU not report that to an official? We were unsure of the situation and had to have faith that the rider did the right thing. It is after all a riders prerogative to re-enter for a check and should not require a black flag. As the laps progressed several people questioned the situation but it was still unclear so we allowed him to ride on with a view to a penalty IF at the end of the race it was clear that the bike had gone down. In our view if he had not gone down and we called him in that would have been a lot worse for us. Initially we discussed a penalty of 30 seconds, the steward encouraged a penalty of 20. We had both riders reps, Nathaniel and Dave, 4 race officials and the steward present to discuss the situation and apply the penalty. No situation like this is easy to make a decision on.
It is not the job of racers to bring shit to the attention of officials, unless they want to protest.

If the officials were discussing a penalty at all, the rider should have been disqualified as it is a clear MNZ directive that a crashed bike cannot rejoin a race after crashing, without being safety checked.

Just another case of people running events, failing to do what the positions require.

[Grumph]

It is not the job of racers to bring shit to the attention of officials, unless they want to protest.

That's one of the functions of the riders rep. If you see something which gives you concerns, tell them.

[Kickaha]

it is a clear MNZ directive that a crashed bike cannot rejoin a race after crashing, without being safety checked.

Is it though? there was confusion about this even at the first rounds of the Nationals this year, is it actually in the rule book?

[sidecar bob]

It doesn't really matter, because it wasn't proper racing, just buckets.

Is rather push a superbike than ride a bucket. :facepalm:

[F5 Dave]

Are you certain of that Drew? It is clear there is a penalty for many things but disqualification mandatory for not coming in? I certainly don't know.

I was riders rep. I was racing and saw nothing so was surprised to be called over. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.
Not important said Steve.
I thought about it for a second and realised he was totaly right.
So a penalty was applied and the very experienced Clark went to look up a similar ruling. The officials let him being most experienced decide. I can't see a problem with this.

So I saw the officials make a call to impose a rule that they didn't see at the time. They made a better call than I would have at the time which is probably why I'm not an official.

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?
Perhaps the rules are clear its disqualification as Drew suggests.
If a penalty the how much should it be?
Now I've thought about this my position has hardened and the penalty should be more than how long it would have lost him (to ride into the very short chute have an official observe nothing hanging off and out again.)

Perhaps 1 lap for dismissing a clear rule? Disqualification if there is a fault with the bike?
But remember that riders do forget shit in the heat of the battle.

I think its a real shame for all involved. This is supposed to be fun. But I think ripping on officials too much will ensure the end of racing.

[kel]

. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.
He was the fastest no question, but that doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him. It would have been really something to see him come in after the crash, have the bike checked, then go out hunt down the front runners and win the race. But he didn't, he blatantly disregarded the rule. Don't forget Adlam was black flagged for exactly the same offence last year.
The riders briefing was clear, in fact if I remember correctly Robin said anyone who didn't comply with the rules would be marched.

[mr bucketracer]

officials not following the rules will be more the end of racing , he new the rules , should of been blacked flaged which is game over .anyone else would of been.

[Dutchee]

He was the fastest no question, but that doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him. It would have been really something to see him come in after the crash, have the bike checked, then go out hunt down the front runners and win the race. But he didn't, he blatantly disregarded the rule. Don't forget Adlam was black flagged for exactly the same offence last year.
The riders briefing was clear, in fact if I remember correctly Robin said anyone who didn't comply with the rules would be marched.

I was not there this year, but was last year. when "Andrew" crashed, we could see him. what we missed was it was Caleb who had crashed (and who went in to be scrutineered). With timing it was easy to sort it out.

You can not see the whole track from the start/finish lines. robin wanders off to peer over the other side at times, but the officials also rely on everyone racing and flagging for eyes.

I have raced after crashing and not being scrutineereed, just never thought of it in the heat of the moment, and it was my first crash. Kamil had sort of looked over my bike, and it was on the grass, but I honestly stuffed up.

Ah well, yet another bit of controversy, you all had time yesterday to talk to the officials, the call was made. That race is over.
Ze bitch Michelle

[Rick 52]

Are you certain of that Drew? It is clear there is a penalty for many things but disqualification mandatory for not coming in? I certainly don't know.

I was riders rep. I was racing and saw nothing so was surprised to be called over. I initially thought it was a shame to put the boot in too heavily the rider was clearly the fastest and should have won.
Not important said Steve.
I thought about it for a second and realised he was totaly right.
So a penalty was applied and the very experienced Clark went to look up a similar ruling. The officials let him being most experienced decide. I can't see a problem with this.

So I saw the officials make a call to impose a rule that they didn't see at the time. They made a better call than I would have at the time which is probably why I'm not an official.

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?
Perhaps the rules are clear its disqualification as Drew suggests.
If a penalty the how much should it be?
Now I've thought about this my position has hardened and the penalty should be more than how long it would have lost him (to ride into the very short chute have an official observe nothing hanging off and out again.)

Perhaps 1 lap for dismissing a clear rule? Disqualification if there is a fault with the bike?
But remember that riders do forget shit in the heat of the battle.

I think its a real shame for all involved. This is supposed to be fun. But I think ripping on officials too much will ensure the end of racing.

Well written Dave, I'm glad i didn't have to make this decision, someone should have lodged a appeal but didn't..
I think we can all lean a lesson from this and move on, The Adlams had a FANTASTIC attitude towards this, even though they were gutted, I hope this do's not make the organizers feel bad a stop doing a great job, go easy fellas please .

[TZ350]

So the real question is how much should that penalty be?

The same as was imposed on the other guy last year when they thought he didn't come in, the same as it was said it would be at riders briefing, anything else will look like favoritism.

If you don't mean it, don't say it, but if you say it, then do it.

[seymour14]

Sorry to do this, but I will.

I overheard the official state that the penalty he applied was based on a jump start. In other words, no one knew what penalty was warranted.

I think a 1 lap minimum was called for (but it was a blatant black flag issue),1 lap is easily what would have been lost in getting the bike back to pits, entering pit lane, getting an official to scrutinize the bike, and then safely re-enter the race.

It changed the whole scene of the race from that point on, because he carried on, got in the lead, and second place backed off after a while when he could no longer keep up.

To top it off the official mentioned that the 15 minute protest time was over, even though they had spent the whole time talking amongst themselves, and no one else even really knew what was transpiring. Has put a very bad taste in some people's mouths this has. Especially a blatant double standard.:mad:

It takes a bit to piss me off, but this ruined what had been a great weekend.

[Henk]

Not being one of the officials at this meeting but having been one of the organisers. I'm going to wade in with this.

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.


Feel strongly enough about it to run the meeting next year?

[Yow Ling]

If any of you guys had been to St Bedes school you would know what to do.

[kel]

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.

Feel strongly enough about it to run the meeting next year?

That depends, do we also get to change the rules to suit? If yes then count me in. Open carbs for 125's or a Tokoroa 20, open fuel or a Tokoroa 20, in fact anything you can think of for a Tokoroa 20.
The organisers did a great job of running the event, was a great weekend, but that doesn't change the fact that the officials completely cocked up this call. For you guys to claim anything else is just ridiculous.
To add to what has already said on the sequence of events, During the race I saw the official's discussing what I assumed was Nathanial's choice to continue on, I saw Robin come and talk directly to Dave while Dave was standing at pit entrance waiting for Nathaniel to come in. All seemed in hand, and clearly it was, the Tokoroa 20!

[TZ350]

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.

That is actually not true, and has never been expressed.

[Henk]

That is actually not true, and has never been expressed.

Rob, that's the way it feels from where I sit.

[andrew a]

Hi guys this is my take on the situation. I rode the race and saw Nathaniel come off. A short while later he passed me again. I thought man he had a real quick pit stop. The race goes on I decide I should pull finger and hunt down Reagan. Unfortunately his bike expired. I keeped my eye on where Caleb and Nathaniel were running. Caleb backed off because I was gaining on him. Nathaniel was gaining on me. Finished the race wow that was great.
Came in to find that Nathaniel did not get his bike checked. This clearly goes against what was clearly stated in riders briefing by Dave Diprose. It was not until prize giving when I found the verdict of what they had decided. A 20 second penilty. The winning margin 22 seconds I believe after Caleb backed off. I started walking over to the discussion on the dummy grid but thought that was not my place to tell them what I saw as a black and white problem.
Last year I got black flagged because a flag marshal correctly saw that I didn't get my bike scrutinized after Caleb fell off. Caleb did get his bike scrutinized and lost two places. He would have been better to have taken the 20 second penilte that will now be offered to every one that fall off. The year before that Gavin V fell off. Came in to no scrutineer on the dummy grid. He could have not come in and got 20 second? The year before that in the 125 race in Taupo Cant think of his name at the moment he fell off. The race red flagged. He went to restart without getting his bike checked. He was out of the race on the restart and lost the championship.
I had a great day racing an realty appreciate the people that put so much effort into making events like this happen.
Thanks to Rob for speaking up.

[seymour14]

Not being one of the officials at this meeting but having been one of the organisers. I'm going to wade in with this.

Some of you feel that the meeting was poorly run because of this incident.


Feel strongly enough about it to run the meeting next year?

Sorry Henk, but that is not even remotely the point. The GP was run fantastically.

There was that one issue that if it was dealt with fairly, people would be able to accept it. Nathaniel won an epic F5 race, he pulled in for other reasons, but once sorted, he reentered that race and rode his guts out. All the kudos goes to him in that instance.

The last race was a very different story. And it is sad to make a mistake and get punished, but what are rules if we don't administer them as we were all told from the very first instance?

[Henk]

That depends, do we also get to change the rules to suit? If yes then count me in. Open carbs for 125's or a Tokoroa 20, open fuel or a Tokoroa 20, in fact anything you can think of for a Tokoroa 20.
The organisers did a great job of running the event, was a great weekend, but that doesn't change the fact that the officials completely cocked up this call. For you guys to claim anything else is just ridiculous.
To add to what has already said on the sequence of events, During the race I saw the official's discussing what I assumed was Nathanial's choice to continue on, I saw Robin come and talk directly to Dave while Dave was standing at pit entrance waiting for Nathaniel to come in. All seemed in hand, and clearly it was, the Tokoroa 20!

If you decide to run it, you can do what you like. Remember though that for there to be a GP it has to run under MNZ rules, you want different bike specs get the rules changed.

Formula Toke as a race was only ever on the program so that people who either felt they weren't fast enogh for the GP, or couldn't be arsed getting a full licence had somewhere to race.
When we started running the GP several years ago now, we never imagined That it would be anything other than the B grade under a different name.

[F5 Dave]

Its easy to have 20/20 hindsight. I think everyone will learn from this, but I imagine they were being careful not to penalise someone when the facts weren't clear in the middle of a race, they can't stop observing a race in the middle to call time out to hold court.

And this isn't a court. And mistakes will be made.

In the old days if you crashed & still won a GP then you certainly rode to achieve it. But the onus was on the rider to confirm that bits weren't hanging off his bike. That position has changed, and probably for the better. In those days I'd certainly remounted and with some red mist a few laps latter I was wondering why I was passing someone I was sure I'd passed before. . .oh yeah, and why are the bars bent? . . .right. . .


It is a shame and irrespective of your position on the matter, lets keep it civil, we're supposed to be doing this for fun. Nobody is being sent to prison afterwards.

[kel]

Formula Toke as a race was only ever on the program so that people who either felt they weren't fast enogh for the GP, or couldn't be arsed getting a full licence had somewhere to race. When we started running the GP several years ago now, we never imagined That it would be anything other than the B grade under a different name.

And your point is?

[Yow Ling]

Just as an outsider looking in, maybe this isn't a balanced forum to discuss this as not all the parties are represented

[Dutchee]

Just as an outsider looking in, maybe this isn't a balanced forum

You're right ;)

[NSR143]

It seems to me that some are not clearly reading the following:

We were not clear whether the bike's handlebar had touched the ground
No rules were changed during the race
No one approached an organizer, steward or riders rep to make a claim the handlebar had hit the ground
No rules were changed during the race
There is no MNZ rule in the rulebook stating a downed bike cannot continue
And no rules were changed before or after the race



(feel free to read this 3 or 4 times or more as required)

[NSR143]

Just to also note... the steward (Robin Atkins) did hang around for the required time and was available for anyone to approach with any concerns.

[kel]

It seems to me that some are not clearly reading the following:

And no rules were changed before or after the race

(feel free to read this 3 or 4 times or more as required)

yeah, yeah. Keep reading it to yourself and maybe you'll believe it
THE WRONG CALL WAS MADE, MAN UP.

[Henk]

yeah, yeah. Keep reading it to yourself and maybe you'll believe it
THE WRONG CALL WAS MADE, MAN UP.

This is going to be my last post to this thread cos it's really starting to wind me up.

A call was made, it may have been wrong or right 20/20 hindsight and all that.

Now either step up because you can do a better job or shut up.
If you decide to step up get hold of Someone at MNZ and get your officials training under way.

[NSR143]

yeah, yeah. Keep reading it to yourself and maybe you'll believe it
THE WRONG CALL WAS MADE, MAN UP.

maybe you're to blame for all this for not approaching an official when you saw the incident?????

[sidecar bob]

Christ, what a lot of cock about nothing.
Racing is supposed to be fun, nobody outside bucket bubble gives a fuck & you guys shouldnt let it ruin your day.
Ive seen real racers get less angst about this kind of thing.

[kel]

Now either step up because you can do a better job or shut up.
.

Wrong, if you can accept the bullshit that went down then close your eyes and carry on but down tell me to shut up ...

[kel]

maybe you're to blame for all this for not approaching an official when you saw the incident?????

good we are making progress, I believe you have now progressed to the third stage of guilt i.e. blame someone else

[mr bucketracer]

maybe you're to blame for all this for not approaching an official when you saw the incident?????you know damn well you were called as the race was running he was seen the bars hit the ground!!!:mad:

[nodrog]

The riders briefing was quite intense, far more thorough than the nationals. I thought mark marqeuz was turning up.

[NSR143]

you know damn well you were called as the race was running he was seen the bars hit the ground!!!:mad:

No one came to me to say his bars hit the ground. (Is this what you're commenting on or please can you re-phrase your sentence as its a bit disjointed.)

[mr bucketracer]

No one came to me to say his bars hit the ground. (Is this what you're commenting on or please can you re-phrase your sentence as its a bit disjointed.)brian was told , i saw him radio you about it ! no more to say

[NSR143]

brian was told , i saw him radio you about it ! no more to say

Brian never confirmed to me his (Nathaniel's) bar hit the ground or I would have flagged him in.

[sidecar bob]

The riders briefing was quite intense, far more thorough than the nationals. I thought mark marqeuz was turning up.

Yes, I agree, it did seem a little O.T.T for bikes that barely go fast enough for gyroscopic energey to stand them upright.

[NSR143]

Yes, I agree, it did seem a little O.T.T for bikes that barely go fast enough for gyroscopic energey to stand them upright.

Sorry I was probably a bit shouty to try and get some points across... like make sure each rider sends someone to a flag marshaling point (which didn't seem to actually happen much anyway! :( )

[sidecar bob]

Take a hard look at yourselves guys. I attended this meeting because I remember buckets being fun & lighthearted racing in the '80's so thought I would give it another chance.
What I encountered was a bunch of people taking themselves waaay to seriously & some egos bigger than top superbike riders. (im not talking about breifing, breifing is cool as everyone needs to know what the kaupapa is)
There was a general mild hatred of people that race proper bikes & I cant help taking the piss out of you guys for not seeing it for what it is, a bit of lighearted fun.
Read back through this thread & pull your heads out of your arses & start enjoying yourselves for a change.

[jellywrestler]

Something was raised in the ESE thread and I thought I'd stir some shit.


It is not the job of racers to bring shit to the attention of officials, unless they want to protest.

so they go down out of site, what then
tell me Drew, at th emeetings you run and/or help out do you get many riders coming upto you with stuff like this?

[jellywrestler]

I think a 1 lap minimum was called for (but it was a blatant black flag issue),1 lap is easily what would have been lost in getting the bike back to pits, entering pit lane, getting an official to scrutinize the bike, and then safely re-enter the race.

it's a safety issue that was breached, penalty should be disqualification, simple SAFETY. go that.

[nodrog]

I crashed twice, left the track multiple times, took out a couple of people, and got runover twice. Nobody cared.

[NSR143]

it's a safety issue that was breached, penalty should be disqualification, simple SAFETY. go that.

I am not 100% sure but I think mostly the re-check was introduced to this class due to issues with nylon falling off. Not to say a general check is not a good idea.

[NSR143]

Take a hard look at yourselves guys. I attended this meeting because I remember buckets being fun & lighthearted racing in the '80's so thought I would give it another chance.
What I encountered was a bunch of people taking themselves waaay to seriously & some egos bigger than top superbike riders. (im not talking about breifing, breifing is cool as everyone needs to know what the kaupapa is)
There was a general mild hatred of people that race proper bikes & I cant help taking the piss out of you guys for not seeing it for what it is, a bit of lighearted fun.
Read back through this thread & pull your heads out of your arses & start enjoying yourselves for a change.

This has to be the most controversial meeting I have ever been involved in, and yes a very sad state of affairs. The riders at the pointy end of the subject were actually good as gold about it.

[Drew]

Sorry, I can't find the rule. Looks like it goes into suplimentary regs of all events, or perhaps just into riders briefing.

A crashed bike isn't allowed to rejoin the track that is still being raced on, at every event I've been to in the last three years. So unless it crashes into pit lane, it's race over.

I haven't run an event, and a couple folk seem to think I'm attacking the organisers of this one. They are wrong, I just reckon a bit of discussion is a good thing.

[kel]

The riders at the pointy end of the subject were actually good as gold about it.
That's right the good guys don't mind you changing the rules on the fly. Wait for it there must be a "we're not racing for sheep stations" coming.
Actually did you talk to the Adlams before you made you're decision, do you have any idea what they really thought. Andrew placed a post a page or two back , go and read it, or have you made a ruling on that to?
You guys cocked up, would be bloody good if you just stood up and owned it.

[Drew]

Oh yeah, it's 30 minutes ya get to raise a protest at an MNZ event. Not 15. And that's just to get the ball rolling, I doubt you have to have signed the paper work and forked out the $50 deposit.

[NSR143]

Sorry, I can't find the rule. Looks like it goes into suplimentary regs of all events, or perhaps just into riders briefing.

A crashed bike isn't allowed to rejoin the track that is still being raced on, at every event I've been to in the last three years. So unless it crashes into pit lane, it's race over.

I haven't run an event, and a couple folk seem to think I'm attacking the organisers of this one. They are wrong, I just reckon a bit of discussion is a good thing.

It is not a supplementary rule at all events at all. Not at this stage. Always good to provide a reference link to a MNZ rule if quoting one to provide accurate debate.

[Drew]

It is not a supplementary rule at all events at all. Not at this stage. Always good to provide a reference link to a MNZ rule if quoting one to provide accurate debate.

True that.

But the argument falls flat when it was said emphatically at the briefing.

Here's a hypothetical to add some context. Say there's a yellow flag and the rider infront of me slows down for it. I go whoring past on his outside and run over some other fellas head. Is "I didn't see the flag" going to save me from being excluded from the race? No!

[NSR143]

Oh yeah, it's 30 minutes ya get to raise a protest at an MNZ event. Not 15. And that's just to get the ball rolling, I doubt you have to have signed the paper work and forked out the $50 deposit.

The steward was available for at least half an hour after the event and probably closer to 45.

7.1.4 A protest may only be made by a competitor who has competed in a race or competition from which the protest ensues, or that rider’s representative where the rider making the protest is incapacitated by reason of injury

7.1.5 The protest must be submitted to the Steward of the Meeting in writing and accompanied by a fee of $35.00 and must make reference to the relevant rule alleged to have been infringe

[sidecar bob]

That's right the good guys don't mind you changing the rules on the fly. Wait for it there must be a "we're not racing for sheep stations" coming.
Actually did you talk too the Adlams before you made you're decision, do you have any idea what they really thought. Andrew placed a post a page or two back , go and read it, or have you made a ruling on that to?
You guys cocked up, would be bloody good if you just stood up and owned it.

No, youre not racing for sheep stations, get the fuck over yourselves & have some fun. I felt it was a waste of a perfectly good day that I could have spent elsewhere given you guys attitudes.
Good luck with the future of your sport, you will need it.

[NSR143]

:shifty:
True that.

But the argument falls flat when it was said emphatically at the briefing.

Here's a hypothetical to add some context. Say there's a yellow flag and the rider infront of me slows down for it. I go whoring past on his outside and run over some other fellas head. Is "I didn't see the flag" going to save me from being excluded from the race? No!

Unfortunately I have to copy and paste so you can read the situation again:
It seems to me that some are not clearly reading the following:

We were not clear whether the bike's handlebar had touched the ground

No one approached an organizer, steward or riders rep to make a claim the handlebar had hit the ground

There is no MNZ rule in the rulebook stating a downed bike cannot continue

and indeed no rules were changed..

[NSR143]

No, youre not racing for sheep stations, get the fuck over yourselves & have some fun. I felt it was a waste of a perfectly good day that I could have spent elsewhere given you guys attitudes.
Good luck with the future of your sport, you will need it.

It's only a very few that make to ruin our fun. Hopefully they will take up skittles or something in the very near future...

[andrew a]

The riders at the pointy end of the subject were actually good as gold about it.[/QUOTE]

No it was really the wrong call. No official talked to me about it. I don't want to be a bad sport about it but it is the GP.

[NSR143]

That's right the good guys don't mind you changing the rules on the fly. Wait for it there must be a "we're not racing for sheep stations" coming.
Actually did you talk to the Adlams before you made you're decision, do you have any idea what they really thought. Andrew placed a post a page or two back , go and read it, or have you made a ruling on that to?
You guys cocked up, would be bloody good if you just stood up and owned it.

No because they were there when we started discussing the issue and Caleb was congratulating Nathaniel so I suspect if they had issue they might have either mentioned it there or seen the steward directly after to seek options.

[NSR143]

No it was really the wrong call. No official talked to me about it. I don't want to be a bad sport about it but it is the GP.

What do you think we should have done?

And I wish you had come to see me or the steward if Caleb or Yourself wanted to protest.

[Kickaha]

You guys cocked up, would be bloody good if you just stood up and owned it.

Did you or anyone else have time to put in a protest within the alloted time when you realised they "cocked it up" ?

[jasonu]

it's a safety issue that was breached,.

But I just watched the opening round of Moto3 from Qatar where I saw at least 2 fallen riders re enter the race WITHOUT stopping by the pits for a quick check over. Maybe if it is good (safe) enough for them...

[nodrog]

Did you or anyone else have time to put in a protest within the alloted time when you realised they "cocked it up" ?

I was too busy drinking to give a fuck.

[kel]

Did you or anyone else have time to put in a protest within the alloted time when you realised they "cocked it up" ?

I wasn't riding, I could not lodge a protest. And as has already been mentioned (shit I hate it when people jump in with their opinion before they have read earlier posts) The officials stood with Nathanial for the duration of the protest period. We were waiting for some kind of announcement. But there was only ever one outcome as the riders brief was clear plus the black flag had been used in previous years for the same transgression. You don't get to change the rules on the day. This was the bucket GP, it wasn't a club meet. Im clearly the most vocal but there were plenty of people calling this. If you set a rule then it needs to be administered.
It was a really good weekend, as already stated it was well organised and run and its always good to catch up with the south of the Bombay's crowd.
Sorry to have spoilt your fun Steve, just to let you know there are no skittles in my future.
Done.

[sidecar bob]

If the events of the weekend wernt enough to cure me of bucket racers forever, this thread certainly is.
Youre a pack of fuckin 4 year olds squabbling over the big yellow truck in the sandpit.

[Danger Dave]

I wasn't riding, I could not lodge a protest. And as has already been mentioned (shit I hate it when people jump in with their opinion before they have read earlier posts) The officials stood with Nathanial for the duration of the protest period. We were waiting for some kind of announcement. But there was only ever one outcome as the riders brief was clear plus the black flag had been used in previous years for the same transgression. You don't get to change the rules on the day. This was the bucket GP, it wasn't a club meet. Im clearly the most vocal but there were plenty of people calling this. If you set a rule then it needs to be administered.
It was a really good weekend, as already stated it was well organised and run and its always good to catch up with the south of the Bombay's crowd.
Sorry to have spoilt your fun Steve, just to let you know there are no skittles in my future.
Done.

Soooo let me get this right, somebody fell whose handlebars may or may not have touched the ground, none of the riders care as none of them protested but someone who wasn't riding has got upset cause they were watching and feel someone should of protested?

Buckets should be about having a laugh, yes it's the GP but if none of the riders gave a shit why do you?

[Grumph]

The steward was available for at least half an hour after the event and probably closer to 45.

7.1.4 A protest may only be made by a competitor who has competed in a race or competition from which the protest ensues, or that rider’s representative where the rider making the protest is incapacitated by reason of injury

7.1.5 The protest must be submitted to the Steward of the Meeting in writing and accompanied by a fee of $35.00 and must make reference to the relevant rule alleged to have been infringe

I read this with some amusement...Assuming a protest was made, no rule would be quoted,no supplementary reg could be quoted, only what had been stated and witnessed at riders briefing....Which may or may not have any legal standing.
Lawyer up boys....

This shit is making a visit from the SI look attractive....not.

Oh and a tip for your steward - if you have reason to think there may be a protest against any competitor, you make yourself available, you specifically do not stand talking to that competitor as though something was happening to change the result....
Note - this impression was gained from reading the organisers comments.

[seymour14]

If the events of the weekend wernt enough to cure me of bucket racers forever, this thread certainly is.
Youre a pack of fuckin 4 year olds squabbling over the big yellow truck in the sandpit.

The weekend was a great time, and the people involved are all good sorts, you probably didn't open your eyes to the other 99% of the weekend if you can make comments like that.

All some people are asking is for a legit reason for the final result. We had all been told a set of rules for the day. If you crashed, you were meant to remove yourself quickly and safely from the track and away from the action. If your handlebars hit the deck, you were to be scrutinized as well. Very simple as.

Maybe a little more thought needs to go forward for the future for some of these rules, otherwise precedents are made and resentments can arise when the same rule does not apply evenly across the board.

Not being an arse, just using a bit of commonsense and looking for a positive step forward.

[F5 Dave]

If the events of the weekend wernt enough to cure me of bucket racers forever, this thread certainly is.
Youre a pack of fuckin 4 year olds squabbling over the big yellow truck in the sandpit.

Yes, we are all like that. Nice generalisation, we appreciate that. I guess that is why our bikes aren't proper.

[F5 Dave]

The weekend was a great time, and the people involved are all good sorts, you probably didn't open your eyes to the other 99% of the weekend if you can make comments like that.

All some people are asking is for a legit reason for the final result. We had all been told a set of rules for the day. If you crashed, you were meant to remove yourself quickly and safely from the track and away from the action. If your handlebars hit the deck, you were to be scrutinized as well. Very simple as.

Maybe a little more thought needs to go forward for the future for some of these rules, otherwise precedents are made and resentments can arise when the same rule does not apply evenly across the board.

Not being an arse, just using a bit of commonsense and looking for a positive step forward.

Now this is probably the best response so far.



- - - - - - -


ok here is a little exercise in hypothetical thinking. We were told a crash was you helmet or the handlebars touching the ground.


Lets say I was to have a little pirouette at the pit corner at all of 20km, (there were three while I was flagging there earlier) the rear rotates round and dumps me over under the bike, but neither of the specified parts hit the ground. I've crashed this way before. I still think it is a crash, but we were given guidelines, so I stand up, sling a leg & let the clutch out. Then pass every other m.fo and win the day.

I'm a bloody hero & I didn't break any rules. But then someone notices that I have fresh looking scratches on my brake lever. Opps. I didn't think it touched the ground. What if it didn't & someone black flagged me?

None of the above happened. but its worth the thought experiment.

[sidecar bob]

Yes, we are all like that. Nice generalisation, we appreciate that. I guess that is why our bikes aren't proper.

Hey its hard not to think you guys a bunch of fuckwits, running around with those T shirts on "id rather ride a bucket than push a superbike" seriously, I saw a kid there that deserves a ride at a much higher level, say protwins or 250 production to start with, but hes destined to go nowhere.

[quallman1234]

Hey its hard not to think you guys a bunch of fuckwits, running around with those T shirts on "id rather ride a bucket than push a superbike" seriously, I saw a kid there that deserves a ride at a much higher level, say protwins or 250 production to start with, but hes destined to go nowhere.

No one is going to pay for a "ride" at a "higher" level.
If this kid wants to ride at a higher level, its up to him to get his ass to that level. If he still only wants to race buckets then good on him. There's less bullshit than all the other bigger bike racings. Which is far worse than buckets for bullshit.

He is in the right class if he is just starting. Buckets is the best place to start, simply because you get a FUCKEN shit load more seat time, for 1/4 the price, and its just as good of a seat time. I'm sure you have been to a recent 'big bike' racing meeting. But you get fuck all seat time for way too much money for youngin's.

Hamish Murphy went from a bucket (he learnt to ride reasonably well on a bucket and only a bucket) to a pro-twin and won nationals with like 4 meetings on his pro-twin to get used to it.

The only reason people care and why it was run like it was in the weekend (very well i must add) was because it was a official NZ Title.
Normally no one gives a fuck. But fair enough the rules should be obeyed properly if its a NZ Title race.
It was for sure the most MNZ style bucket meeting i have been to, but it had to be that way, because of the rules to run a NZ Title Event.

Speaking of rules. The protest time is up people. No one protested and put 50$ up. So protest next time, but for now off you go, and hope i see you at the next cool meeting where we can talk shit race bikes and drink piss.

[F5 Dave]

Hey its hard not to think you guys a bunch of fuckwits, running around with those T shirts on "id rather ride a bucket than push a superbike" seriously, I saw a kid there that deserves a ride at a much higher level, say protwins or 250 production to start with, but hes destined to go nowhere.

Yes those T shirts are a tongue in cheek response to all the people who, ohh I dunno say things like 'Not proper bikes' and its 'not real racing'. Poke fun at people long enough and they'll poke it back. MNZ for example didn't list F4 & F5 in their championship booklet I got about 6 yrs ago, as clearly we aren't proper racing (unlike the 9-12yr old trailbike class that was included). But you clearly took offence even though you see no problem belittling us. Thanks. And thanks for calling me a fuckwit. I won't lower myself to the same level.

And as far as 'destined to go nowhere' you only have to look about 5 years, list of champions (erm probably that same booklet) of roadracing were heavily loaded with people from buckets.

But for most of us it is about club racing, not trying to get a seat on a path to glory for which is very unlikely in todays money'd up highest level.

[goose8]

Hey its hard not to think you guys a bunch of fuckwits, running around with those T shirts on "id rather ride a bucket than push a superbike" seriously, I saw a kid there that deserves a ride at a much higher level, say protwins or 250 production to start with, but hes destined to go nowhere.
This weekend was the worst ive seen, an hopefully the worst I will see after riding a lot of bigger classes protwins an 250 prod are at a lower level not higher.
F3 or above dif higher level and it was good to see this year the top three classes at the nationals were won by buckets racers Avalon alister an jaden.

[goose8]

This weekend was the worst ive seen, an hopefully the worst I will see after riding a lot of bigger classes protwins an 250 prod are at a lower level not higher.
F3 or above dif higher level and it was good to see this year the top three classes at the nationals were won by buckets racers Avalon alister an jaden.

just to calify it was still a great meeting just a said end to a great meeting

[NSR143]

Oh and a tip for your steward - if you have reason to think there may be a protest against any competitor, you make yourself available, you specifically do not stand talking to that competitor as though something was happening to change the result....
Note - this impression was gained from reading the organisers comments.

The steward was available going about his own business in the immediate area for the 30-45min after our discussion. (sorry for the confusion)

And I see what you are saying about a rule to protest against, I was just trying to clear up the method if applicable.

[NSR143]

I guess we will not be seeing sidecar bob again.... :(

[Kickaha]

I guess we will not be seeing sidecar bob again.... :(

What were Gordie and that fat prick riding? did they dnf because it couldn't cope with their combined weight?

[jellywrestler]

Yes, I agree, it did seem a little O.T.T for bikes that barely go fast enough for gyroscopic energey to stand them upright.

it'not too long since a bucket racer died at Levels.....

[Kickaha]

I saw a kid there that deserves a ride at a much higher level, say protwins or 250 production to start with, but hes destined to go nowhere.

You never know how he'll go, there's a lot of current and past NZ Champions who either rode buckets or still ride them

[jellywrestler]

I crashed twice, left the track multiple times, took out a couple of people, and got runover twice. Nobody cared.

is that you Craig Shirriffs?

[jellywrestler]

A crashed bike isn't allowed to rejoin the track that is still being raced on, at every event I've been to in the last three years. So unless it crashes into pit lane, it's race over.

so you didn't do the nationals this year then, it was fully ok to do this for the first two meetings then they realised how dangerous it was and changed it back.....

[jellywrestler]

Oh yeah, it's 30 minutes ya get to raise a protest at an MNZ event. Not 15. And that's just to get the ball rolling, I doubt you have to have signed the paper work and forked out the $50 deposit. It's Bucket racing Drewpy, they pay it in Monopoly Money.

[sidecar bob]

What were Gordie and that fat prick riding? did they dnf because it couldn't cope with their combined weight?

No, some way to serious guy was concerned that he may finish last in the world bucket chumps & crashed into the back of us so hard he broke the deck off & caved the sidewheel under in an attempt to pass.

[sidecar bob]

You never know how he'll go, there's a lot of current and past NZ Champions who either rode buckets or still ride them

Fuck, how did they manage to escape from the titanium bubble that is bucket racing?

[Kickaha]

crashed into the back of us so hard he broke the deck off & caved the sidewheel under in an attempt to pass.

So Chris Lawrance was racing then

[TALLIS]

Fuck, how did they manage to escape from the titanium bubble that is bucket racing?
If anything mate, you had a bad weekends racing and this gives you an easy out. Possibly harder than you though? were not all cocks like you think, this is the biggest title for the titanium bubble that is bucket racing as you say. Fastest man on the day won, coudos to him. I think the problem is a simple rule for all has been ignored by one, it just so happens it was the person who won. If you have to see the merit in the argument. Going forward, I think lessons learned by both officials and riders. As for words said and love lost, let's just get back to racing! :cool:

[F5 Dave]

Sidecar Bob. Virtually evert comment you have made has been derogatory and belittling. Maybe I've missed one. You obviously lost your temper. Either you can appologise or continue in a way that paints you in a bad light. And its rich coming from a sidecar guy. Surely you should see the parallels of how chairs are often treated in bike meets.

[nodrog]

What were Gordie and that fat prick riding? did they dnf because it couldn't cope with their combined weight?

it was a mean machine, it was so fast the r clip for the brake pads stayed on for an entire race, on the deck, where I left it.


is that you Craig Shirriffs?

I now know what Craig is up to, doubling his track time with some adventure riding.



Sidecar Bob. Virtually evert comment you have made has been derogatory and belittling. Maybe I've missed one. You obviously lost your temper. Either you can appologise or continue in a way that paints you in a bad light. And its rich coming from a sidecar guy. Surely you should see the parallels of how chairs are often treated in bike meets.

don't jump to conclusions. just because he has sidecar in his name doesn't mean he's into sidecars, afterall there is a balding middle aged man posting in this thread called Jellywrestler.

[wildman]

I crashed twice, left the track multiple times, took out a couple of people, and got runover twice. Nobody cared.

I cared Gordie it took the heat off me for not tightening someones sidecar wheel up properly:hug::hug:

[Kickaha]

Surely you should see the parallels of how chairs are often treated in bike meets.
Having raced both classes for quite some time I've often thought that

Bob probably just needs a hug, sort that out for us Gordy

[F5 Dave]

. . . afterall there is a balding middle aged man posting in this thread called Jellywrestler.
You mean that sexy Avatar isn't his picture? :laugh:

Nah with a decent enough spud canon I could probably hit his house from here.

[sidecar bob]

Sidecar Bob. Virtually evert comment you have made has been derogatory and belittling. Maybe I've missed one. You obviously lost your temper. Either you can appologise or continue in a way that paints you in a bad light. And its rich coming from a sidecar guy. Surely you should see the parallels of how chairs are often treated in bike meets.

No, I haven't lost my temper, I'm not sure how you managed to arrive at that, but a lot of posters in this thread have, over a minor incident that can't be changed now. I'm not apologising for pointing out the truth.
Drew always told me that telling a bucket racer that buckets went proper bikes would wind them up. I was just testing that theory & yep, sure enough.:laugh:

[jellywrestler]

Drew always told me that telling a bucket racer that buckets went proper bikes would wind them up. I was just testing that theory & yep, sure enough.:laugh:

are you talking about the long or the short bikes?

[koba]

This reads pretty bad on here, Drew struck it well on his shit stirring attempt.



I'd like to point out a few things that we shouldn't lose in all this:

It was a great weekend with lots of fun racing. It was entertaining to watch and the F5 GP was fantastic, even though I'd rather have not DNF'd.

Despite the controversy with a few heated words and strong feelings; all parties, both directly involved and otherwise, maintained a good standard of respect for each other.
A few of those moments were intense and could have gone far worse.

We are (mostly) all good friends and despite differences there is a pretty strong culture of mutual respect in this sport. (Beneath all the shit giving)
I'm sure these issues will be addressed to ensure there is a clear and consistent approach in the future.
Debate is good in the right forum, the officials and people involved have said their bit and received the feedback. I'm sure they will do what they can to ensure this doesn't happen again.
I hope this doesn't lead them to question their involvement, there is much respect for them and appreciation for all the effort, despite some disagreements.

As much as sidecar bob comes across as a cock-smoking sidecar fag*, he is right, It can't be changed now.
So, lets get on with it and get back to the fun.


It was good to see a few new faces along, both at the racing and the 'other activities'.

It's reallydamncool how most of us, even the fiercest rivals, can sit down and have a good old yarn about the shit that we all love doing.
Lets make sure we keep it that way.


* don't get too excited, it's a joke, you don't have to send him that dick pic.

[koba]

are you talking about the long or the short bikes?

Aren't they trikes? :Pokey:

[speedpro]

I crashed twice, and got runover twice. Nobody cared.

You were being run over deliberately, for obvious reasons.

[speedpro]

Fuck, how did they manage to escape from the titanium bubble that is bucket racing?

I imagine Craig Shirriffs crashed his way out

[Drew]

But I just watched the opening round of Moto3 from Qatar where I saw at least 2 fallen riders re enter the race WITHOUT stopping by the pits for a quick check over. Maybe if it is good (safe) enough for them...Cool, I can give two examples of mates of mine dying here in NZ because someone who should have gotten off the track and stayed there...didn't. Does that compute? These two dudes are fucken DEAD! Racing here is not of a level so fucken high that everyone can lap within 3 seconds of the leader. It aint the same, and you fucking know it!


No one is going to pay for a "ride" at a "higher" level.
If this kid wants to ride at a higher level, its up to him to get his ass to that level. If he still only wants to race buckets then good on him. There's less bullshit than all the other bigger bike racings. Which is far worse than buckets for bullshit.

He is in the right class if he is just starting. Buckets is the best place to start, simply because you get a FUCKEN shit load more seat time, for 1/4 the price, and its just as good of a seat time. I'm sure you have been to a recent 'big bike' racing meeting. But you get fuck all seat time for way too much money for youngin's.

Hamish Murphy went from a bucket (he learnt to ride reasonably well on a bucket and only a bucket) to a pro-twin and won nationals with like 4 meetings on his pro-twin to get used to it.

The only reason people care and why it was run like it was in the weekend (very well i must add) was because it was a official NZ Title.
Normally no one gives a fuck. But fair enough the rules should be obeyed properly if its a NZ Title race.
It was for sure the most MNZ style bucket meeting i have been to, but it had to be that way, because of the rules to run a NZ Title Event.

Speaking of rules. The protest time is up people. No one protested and put 50$ up. So protest next time, but for now off you go, and hope i see you at the next cool meeting where we can talk shit race bikes and drink piss.Kyle, you clearly don't know who sidecarbob is. "No one is going to pay for this kid to ride at a higher level". Steve is exactly the guy who WOULD DO JUST THAT, were he impressed by anyone to that much.

He's not a fan of it being pointed out, but he supports more riders than anyone else I know. Including the Jay on the classic GSX1100.


Sidecar Bob. Virtually evert comment you have made has been derogatory and belittling. Maybe I've missed one. You obviously lost your temper. Either you can appologise or continue in a way that paints you in a bad light. And its rich coming from a sidecar guy. Surely you should see the parallels of how chairs are often treated in bike meets.
I would like to take this opportunity, to accept some responsibility for Steve's comments. I as much as dared him to have a go thus.

[Kickaha]

Drew always told me that telling a bucket racer that buckets went proper bikes would wind them up. I was just testing that theory & yep, sure enough.:laugh:
What would Drew know, he can't ride one for shit anyway

As much as sidecar bob comes across as a cock-smoking sidecar fag*
You've obviously met him

You were being run over deliberately, for obvious reasons.
If I had been there I would have run him over too

[jasonu]

It's Bucket racing Drewpy, they pay it in Monopoly Money.

The MNZ don't consider the considerable amount of cash Buckets generates for them Monopoly money.

[sidecar bob]

As much as sidecar bob comes across as a cock-smoking sidecar fag*

I hoe into you guys hard out for a day & thats the best I get in return? you guys need to take a lesson from the sidecar thread, youre all far too nice.
;)

[nodrog]

..... Racing here is not of a level so fucken high that everyone can lap within 3 seconds of the leader......

Bro you haven't been to a bucket meeting in a while then, its hard core. In fact in the second race where Tina and I took out Chris's chair we were lapping 3 seconds off the leader, despite it being our first time on the chair, throwing the chain off on the start, and breaking the throttle cable. Imagine if I got confident enough to use the brakes.

Can I have a GP ride?

[richban]

I hoe into you guys hard out for a day & thats the best I get in return? you guys need to take a lesson from the sidecar thread, youre all far too nice.
;)

I thought it was gold! Pissed myself this morning. It was the delivery that was best. Tucked down the bottom of a well written post.

Timing is everything.

[TZ350]

Debate is good in the right forum, the officials and people involved have said their bit and received the feedback. I hope this doesn't lead them to question their involvement, there is much respect for them and appreciation for all the effort, despite some disagreements.

"" there is much respect "" totally agree, just sorry I didn't have the talent to make my point with more humor ... sorry ... :facepalm:

[sidecar bob]

the problem with the debate on this topic is that too many people got involved, it got far too in depth & it became a masdebate.

[Drew]

masdebate.That's fucken bucket racing for ya.

[kel]

Hey those shit hot T shirts "id rather ride a bucket than push a superbike" I saw

Fuck yeah someone get me four of these shirts. I'm going to give them to Giggles and those Hassan kids that work for him!

[FastFred]

......................

it became a masterbate.

310334

[jasonu]

I hoe into you guys hard out for a day & thats the best I get in return? you guys need to take a lesson from the sidecar thread, youre all far too nice.
;)

You're a big poo and your mother dresses you funny and sidecars are for sissies!

Hows that?

[Drew]

You're a big poo and your mother dresses you funny and sidecars are for sissies!

Hows that?
Pretty fucken gay.

[speedpro]

The thing that surprised me is that the sidecars didn't oil the track, as they often do.

[seymour14]

The thing that surprised me is that the sidecars didn't oil the track, as they often do.

There were fewer breakdowns in the Sidecar GP then the other two.

The only oil spilt was the good oil at the end of the day.:drinknsin

[lodgernz]

Can we please make this the last post on this sad thread?
I had a great weekend despite coming last in both GPs.
I really want to do it again next year, so I hope the organisers can forgive everyone.

[cotswold]

Can we please make this the last post on this sad thread?
I had a great weekend despite coming last in both GPs.
I really want to do it again next year, so I hope the organisers can forgive everyone.

at least you finished 2 GP's thats a good effort

[jasonu]

Can we please make this the last post on this sad thread?
I had a great weekend despite coming last in both GPs.
I really want to do it again next year, so I hope the organisers can forgive everyone.

I thought it died 3 days ago (until you revived it):niceone:

[Drew]

Can we please make this the last post on this sad thread?
I had a great weekend despite coming last in both GPs.
I really want to do it again next year, so I hope the organisers can forgive everyone.

Oh right, top attitude. "They made a mistake, but we shouldn't talk about it because they might not come back".

That's daft man.

[lodgernz]

Oh right, top attitude. "They made a mistake, but we shouldn't talk about it because they might not come back".

That's daft man.

Drew, you did the right thing by moving this argument out of our precious ESE thread.
Don't make a cunt of yourself now.

[Kickaha]

Don't make a cunt of yourself now.
He's done it for years, he shouldn't have to stop now

[Drew]

Drew, you did the right thing by moving this argument out of our precious ESE thread.
Don't make a cunt of yourself now.

I don't think I'm being a cunt. You're argument made no sense, as far as getting the conversation to stop.

[sidecar bob]

I don't think I'm being a cunt

That'll be a symptom of the Asbergers syndrome.

[Drew]

That'll be a symptom of the Asbergers syndrome.

Hahahahahahaha. Arseburgers.