A crashed Bucket

[TZ350]

.

There is no MNZ rule in the rulebook stating a downed bike cannot continue.

2015 proposed rule changes, a crashed Bucket will not be able to re enter the race at all if the proposed rule change on page 4 go’s through as it is.

On the face of it, its a good proposal but it looks like the time-honoured tradition of a Bucket racer being able to scramble to their feet and continue to race (even after a quick safety check in the pits) is under threat.

Buckets (probably) being the biggest class of RR, and particularly the go kart track riders where low level crashing is a common occurrence need to think the implications of this proposed rule change through and submit their thoughts in a constructive submission to MNZ.

2015 Proposed Rule Change for all RR Classes.

310428

Page 4

Chapter 22 – Road Racing
22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session.
At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for re-examination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

Page 4:- http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2015-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-websitea97dfb456e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn =2

Probably affects cart track riders more than the mainland big track riders but for or against put your submissions on this proposed rule change into MNZ now.

[richban]

I don't mind the rule. Its all about safety. If it helps save lives and broken bones then thats good with me.

Also with buckets, well in wellington at lease, most club races are only 8 laps long. So you only have a few mins to kick yourself for making a misstake. Or to calm down, after the cock sucker still riding that took you out, comes into the pits so you can punch his face in. :innocent:

[TZ350]

I was not thinking of opposing the proposed rule as it seems a sensible one. But rather thinking of an exclusion for Bucket races run on Kart tracks as their crashes are common and mostly low level.

The proposed rule as it is would decimate the field in the 2 hour race at Mt Wellington and would have an unnecessary effect on longer races like the F4 and F5 GP when they are run on a Kart track. I am not sure how the Mainlanders feel about it with regards to the 1 hour Battle of the Buckets run at Ruapuna. but I guess the proposed rule change makes more sense at Greymouth and Methervin.

Anyway I was thinking of proposing an exclusion for Bucket races run on cart tracks.

[Yow Ling]

The other changes included in the pdf are
F4 70cc twostroke turbo /surercharged
F4 100cc allowed 107cc with overboring
Sharkfin chain guards

And of course they left the S in

[richban]

I was not thinking of opposing the proposed rule as it seems a sensible one. But rather thinking of an exclusion for Bucket races run on Kart tracks as their crashes are common and mostly low level.

The proposed rule as it is would decimate the field in the 2 hour race at Mt Wellington and would have an unnecessary effect on longer races like the F4 and F5 GP when they are run on a Kart track. I am not sure how the Mainlanders feel about it with regards to the 1 hour Battle of the Buckets run at Ruapuna. I guess it makes more sense at Greymouth and Methervin.

It is a tricky one. If running on a kart track then the speeds are not so high. But If the rider continues and crashes on the same side then maybe the track protection on the bike gives up and damages the track. Not so flash for biker kart relations!

Re BOB. That in my mind is the same as any bigger track event. Its fast and therefore should fall into the same bracket as all the others. It won't stop people pushing for the win. And there is always another day another race.

[richban]

The other changes included in the pdf are
F4 70cc twostroke turbo /surercharged
F4 100cc allowed 107cc with overboring
Sharkfin chain guards

And of course they left the S in

Was looking for the Mx engine one but could not see it.

[Yow Ling]

I was not thinking of opposing the proposed rule as it seems a sensible one. But rather thinking of an exclusion for Bucket races run on Kart tracks as their crashes are common and mostly low level.

The proposed rule as it is would decimate the field in the 2 hour race at Mt Wellington and would have an unnecessary effect on longer races like the F4 and F5 GP when they are run on a Kart track. I am not sure how the Mainlanders feel about it with regards to the 1 hour Battle of the Buckets run at Ruapuna. but I guess the proposed rule change makes more sense at Greymouth and Methervin.

Anyway I was thinking of proposing an exclusion for Bucket races run on cart tracks.

I agree, its a bit of a broad brush approach, if organisers want it they can include it with a supplimentary reg. They dont have this rule for motox and buckets are not generally run on the same tracks as most Road Race meets

[Yow Ling]

Was looking for the Mx engine one but could not see it.

I guess to have it included someone would have to submit a rulechange request

[richban]

I guess to have it included someone would have to submit a rulechange request

100% true. I just figured after all the hoopla about it some one would have.

[Yow Ling]

100% true. I just figured after all the hoopla about it some one would have.

It would seem not, but we should consider if we want the other changes, I notice Rob was in the pulpit singing the praises of 70cc 2t forced induction this morning , coincidence? Its really just a rule change that is for one person. Wheras the 107cc rulechange will have much more appeal to many people, and may finally see 125's on the scrapheap

[richban]

It would seem not, but we should consider if we want the other changes, I notice Rob was in the pulpit singing the praises of 70cc 2t forced induction this morning , coincidence? Its really just a rule change that is for one person. Wheras the 107cc rulechange will have much more appeal to many people, and may finally see 125's on the scrapheap

My personal opinion is. Raise the hundies to 107. Allow 85mx engines. Bums on seats is what should be the focus. As I have said before. You still have to ride good to win.

[jasonu]

.


2015 proposed rule changes, a crashed Bucket will not be able to re enter the race at all if the proposed rule change on page 4 go’s through as it is.

On the face of it, its a good proposal but it looks like the time-honoured tradition of a Bucket racer being able to scramble to their feet and continue to race (even after a quick safety check in the pits) is under threat.

Buckets (probably) being the biggest class of RR, and particularly the go kart track riders where low level crashing is a common occurrence need to think the implications of this proposed rule change through and submit their thoughts in a constructive submission to MNZ.

2015 Proposed Rule Change for all RR Classes.

310428

Page 4

Chapter 22 – Road Racing
22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session.
At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for re-examination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

Page 4:- http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2015-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-websitea97dfb456e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn =2

Probably affects cart track riders more than the mainland big track riders but for or against put your submissions on this proposed rule change into MNZ now.

Organizers might think about consulting with the kart track owners for their input. They might want/expect/insist on nylons etc being inspected after a spill. As for not being allowed to continue the session after a spill, that sounds stupid especially for buckets and longer 'real bike' races.

[TZ350]

I notice Rob was in the pulpit singing the praises of 70cc 2t forced induction this morning , coincidence? Its really just a rule change that is for one person. Where as the 107cc rule change will have much more appeal to many people, and may finally see 125's on the scrapheap

No coincidence and it looks like I was the only one to be open about it and seek comment before I made the submission.


So I am just floating the idea to get other peoples opinions about whether there is a place for expanding the rules to allow a broader range of options, particularly options that encourage experimentation.

and I posted the full text of my proposal for comment here before I submitted it, everyone else seems to have put theirs forward by stealth. 107cc for the 100's thing benefits a few, an even handed rule benefits all.


Change 24.2 to read. F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged

It is no secret that I proposed that if 4T's have a forced induction option then 2T's should too, then anyone whether a 2T or a 4T enthusiast would have the same range of options, level playing field, same rule for all and all that.

I don't have any plans for a turbo 2T but do have a 150cc CVT H2O 4T Scooter which has a 2.5x17 front and a 3.5x16 rear wheel and a good motorcycle type ladder frame. The engine could be stroked and bored to 99cc and turbocharged to make a very effective racer.

I thought the 107cc was only for the benefit of someone who did not wan't to go to the effort of doing it properly.

So if there are a few people wanting 107cc for their old 100's then maybe 125+7% for air cooled 125s would be fair and would allow them 133.75cc maximum oversize so we could use the full range of oversize pistons available to keep our old bikes on the track for longer too, now that would be fair. And then there is 4T 150cc + 7% to think about.

If your going to put a rule forward, make it fair to all, otherwise its just an exercise in self interest.

[kel]

F4 100cc allowed 107cc with overboring
And of course they left the S in

Well I'm claiming credit for crushing the 100 overbore nonsense last year, someone else will need to do it this year as I don't have a MNZ licence. Should be the same argument as last time, the rule should apply to, or benefit all. It can't be to the exclusive benefit of one (or two) bike owners who can't be bothered de-stroking.

We all love the "s" as it sends Husaberg in to a tailspin :lol:

[kel]

F4 100cc allowed 107cc with overboring


Now that wasn't well thought out at all, they'll have to use 24mm carbs - "24.2 ... F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor" :nya:

[TZ350]

Now that wasn't well thought out at all, they'll have to use 24mm carbs - "24.2 ... F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor" :nya:

........ :killingme good spotting Kel, now the lazy ^%$&%*& ers will have to read 1040 pages of the ESE thread to find out what needs to be done to 24mm carbs before they can get any power out of their 100's.

I bet they will be tempted to cheat, or maybe its time to drop that silly carb rule.

[Pumba]

someone else will need to do it this year as I don't have a MNZ licence.

Not true Kel . All MNZ ask for is feedback, and provide an email address to submit to. I cant find anything to say you have to be a MNZ member to provide feedbaack.

[kel]

. All MNZ ask for is feedback, and provide an email address to submit to.

wonder why I thought you had to include MNZ number with submission :scratch: . Never mind, I'm quite happy for them to have 107cc and be restricted to 24mm carbs :laugh:
But that crash rule, I don't think it works for buckets. If the bike is checked and cleared surely the rider should be allowed to continue? We might end up with races that have no finishers :lol:

[F5 Dave]

The original draft several years back captured that carb rule. It would benefit quite a few engines from several manufacturers for several over sizes. But whatever.

[bucketracer]

... the 107cc rule change will have much more appeal to many people, and may finally see 125's on the scrapheap

Maybe a list of engines that would benefit and the maximum KT100 piston OS that the shorter stroke MB100 could use compared to the others and I think we would see it was more of a benefit to the few than the many.


It would benefit quite a few engines from several manufacturers for several over sizes. But whatever.

Many over-sizes!!!! well not on the Suzuki GP/TF/TS or any of the other motors with a 50mm stroke, with these motors your over the 107cc limit with a 0.25mm OS KT100 piston.

[speedpro]

Maybe a list of engines that would benefit and the maximum KT100 piston OS that the shorter stroke MB100 could use compared to the others and I think we would see it was more of a benefit to the few than the many.



Many over-sizes!!!! well not on the Suzuki GP/TF/TS or any of the other motors with a 50mm stroke, with these motors your over the 107cc limit with a 0.25mm OS KT100 piston.

0.25mm is still 5 KT100 piston oversize steps. I find it difficult to believe that anyone thinks 2cc is going to make a performance difference. It's 5% so maybe 1hp. To affect say Kel, the original 105cc engine would need say 25hp. Assuming watercooling of the 107cc engine versus Kel's aircooled engine. Not picking on Kel, just an example. Feel free to list all the 100cc 2T engines making 25+hp racing at the moment.

I didn't make the proposal by the way. I'm quite surprised it came back. Also the last box of KT pistons I got cost $6 ea. Be great being able to use them with a stock stroke crank rather than having to build a $1000 crank to keep legal.

[husaberg]

Well I'm claiming credit for crushing the 100 overbore nonsense last year, someone else will need to do it this year as I don't have a MNZ licence. Should be the same argument as last time, the rule should apply to, or benefit all. It can't be to the exclusive benefit of one (or two) bike owners who can't be bothered de-stroking.

We all love the "s" as it sends Husaberg in to a tailspin :lol:

husaberg has a small h
That post does you no credit Kel.
Very few pistons suit the 100cc bikes, its well documented. Feel free to make it about me though.
According to Frits Wob and most anyone who can actually read and interrupt a rulebook the 'S is a clincher.
Yawn

[F5 Dave]

Oh no, that's just not true. Why there's the 1978 bushwhacker 4th oversize, and then there's . . . well there's loads.

[kel]

husaberg has a small h.
Touchy he is mmm. Dude the lol was placed at the end of the sentence to indicate a light hearted piss take.

[TZ350]

100cc 2T engines making 25+hp racing at the moment.

Jasons RG400 cylinder on a KE125 bottom end was good for 25, in fact a RG400 cylinder is probably the easiest way for a reliable 25+hp. They could use the KT100 pistons too but only up to 0.25mm OS if 107cc came in.


I find it difficult to believe that anyone thinks 2cc is going to make a performance difference. It's 5% so maybe 1hp.

I would very much like another 5% on top of the current overbore limit for air cooled 125's and to be fair plus another 5% should be available to all the others too.


Be great being able to use them with a stock stroke crank rather than having to build a $1000 crank to keep legal.

Give me a suitable rod kit with a 22mm bigend (RGV250, RD250/350, RZ350 the list goes on) and $260 and I will get you'er old crank de stroked for you so you can use KT100 pistons and be within the current 100cc rules.

[jasonu]

..., or maybe its time to drop that silly carb rule.

It is not a silly rule. You have shown you can get 30+hp with that restriction in place.

[TZ350]

It is not a silly rule. You have shown you can get 30+hp with that restriction in place.

So the point of the rule is??? .... :scratch:

[husaberg]

Touchy he is mmm. Dude the lol was placed at the end of the sentence to indicate a light hearted piss take.

It was a pretty good summary of your self serving attitude.

[TZ350]

... the rule should apply to, or benefit all. It can't be to the exclusive benefit of one (or two) bike owners who can't be bothered de-stroking.


It was a pretty good summary of your self serving attitude.

Not sure Kels argument for one rule for all is self serving, but an exclusive few wanting an extra 5% for their own benefit looks self serving to me, sure it may be easier and cheaper but may be you could explain why that is not self serving.

[husaberg]

Not sure Kels argument for one rule for all is self serving, but an exclusive few wanting an extra 5% for their own benefit looks self serving to me, sure it may be easier and cheaper but may be you could explain why that is not self serving.

The ethanol fuel which would obviously benefit some subclasses more than others.(his augment that it would not)
The 107cc saying it was all about a couple of people but mainly me when it was obviously not,
The repeated suggestions that there were plenty of other suitable pistons for the 100cc bikes when there clearly was not.
Kels augment was not about one rule maybe reread his original post.
If you read any of the stuff I have said all along I have always said I don't care if the others get a few extra cc as a compensation.
but, I don't think it is appropriate to argue that the actual reasoning for it with 4T's is because of availability as they have other pistons that are commonly available and cheap.
Also the the same argument for OS pistons is not the case for the 56mm bores for availability as they have other many pistons that are commonly available and cheap.

The 2t guys need to sort this out between themselves as the 4T guys must have a great laugh about this repeated shit fights over a few cc's when they have lobbied and got about 30cc over a few years the 2t guys got nothing

[TZ350]

I have always said I don't care if the others get a few extra cc as a compensation.

Which is why I prefered your suggestion of a 10% overbore limit for all myself, because it covers everybody.

[husaberg]

Which is why I prefered your suggestion of a 10% overbore limit for all myself, because it covers everybody.

but the same reasoning is not there though. That's the crux.

[speedpro]

I really don't care. My next new build will be stock stroke and KT100 probably at a start size if 52.6+

I asked about 25hp 2T buckets and Jason's bike was mentioned. The other part of my question was "racing at the moment". When was the last time we saw Jason's bucket?

There has been mention of self-serving amendments. However the other way of looking at it is that denying other racers a cheap alternative part could be seen as self-serving the person doing the denying, as in "I" don't get an advantage and therefore "I" will oppose this.

Guys running aircooled 2Ts years ago grabbed a huge advantage with a capacity limit increase to 125cc, a 25% increase. There was no advantage to the H2O 100cc 2Ts but I can't remember hearing any bleating, and I would have. I made the proposal and went to conference to argue for it. I also proposed a 4T increase to 140cc, due to availability(I thought) of available oversize pistons. No other reason though it did seem to be asking a bit much of a 125cc 4T to keep up with Jimmy, not that many others were anyway. Subsequently the 4T size went to 150cc, again without much bleating about self-service and also without a compensatory increase in other engine configuration capacity limits. It made perfect sense of course in that FXR150s were allowed to compete which probably saved bucket racing from extinction(maybe).

It isn't like there is a number of 100cc 2Ts that need just 2cc more to start winning. It's a cost thing plus the small incremental sizes that will extend cylinder life many times over.

[kel]

Buckets is about using what the rules allow. You can have your KT pistons right now simply by de-stroking, just as us 125 racers get to use decent length rods and wiseco pistons by extensively modifying our cranks (and then we only get about three oversizes, and only one in my case). The destroked 100's get countless oversize options due to tiny increments a big win which is well deserved for the effort put into the crank and motor. But wait for it, the real advantage is getting a high tech piston specifically made for air cooled race engines with a fantastic quality thin ring that can rev to 14500k all day long! Again a well deserved reward for the effort put in to motor, kudos to all that do.
Note any 100cc bucket racer can already use KT pistons you just add a 24mm carb and you're good to go, and as already pointed out this still won't change even if your rule change does go through :motu:

[F5 Dave]

Simply by destroking, - wanna tell that to my two broken cranks? Aircooled piston into a water cooled barrel, piston designed in the 70s. Considerable over square engine. It's just pants all the way. Currently we get 4% oversize as it has always been.

[jasonu]

So the point of the rule is??? .... :scratch:

To provide some parity between 100cc h20 and 125ac two strokes and it does it nicely.

[TZ350]

Simply by destroking, - wanna tell that to my two broken cranks? Aircooled piston into a water cooled barrel, piston designed in the 70s. Considerable over square engine. It's just pants all the way. Currently we get 4% oversize as it has always been.

I haven't broken any of my repinned cranks, but otherwise you have pretty much described my engine .... its Buckets.

[F5 Dave]

So Rob, you've done well to reduce the impact of the 24. But given some development and a 35mm flatslide would you bet against getting more power?

[TZ350]

I really don't care. My next new build will be stock stroke and KT100 probably at a start size if 52.6+

There has been mention of self-serving amendments. However the other way of looking at it is that denying other racers a cheap alternative part could be seen as self-serving the person doing the denying, as in "I" don't get an advantage and therefore "I" will oppose this.

I think cheap is a great idea and nothing is stopping you now. You don't need a rule change to do that, just run a 24mm carb and air cooling and you're sweet, but if you want something different just be sure to include everybody in the benefits, or at least not start to disadvantage a section of the community because something suits yourself.

With my proposal I advertised it for comment before submitting it then ensured that people were aware of it so they could make submissions to MNZ on the proposal if they wished. Thats democracy and doing ones best ensure a good outcome.

Proposed rule changes submitted by stealth for the benefit of a few ..... I am not sure what that is but here is your chance to tell me.

[husaberg]

So Rob, you've done well to reduce the impact of the 24. But given some development and a 35mm flatslide would you bet against getting more power?

I think this is a futile debate the only way around this impass it is to ask for a rule amendment banning any ethanol based fuels:clap:
Pretty sure the majority of the 4T brigade would back that.;)

I have a document here from a world renowned physicist and 2 stroke expert that clearly saying ethanol based fuels gives air cooled 2t an unfair advantage over liquid cooled bikes of smaller displacement and over 4ts given a displacement leg up based on running leaded or unleaded hydrocarbon fuels. I'm picking the MNZ would have to consider his opinion somewhat worthy and impartial.

I am not sure what to call it though any ideas?

[husaberg]

I think cheap is a great idea and nothing is stopping you now. You don't need a rule change to do that, just run a 24mm carb and air cooling and you're sweet, but if you want something different just be sure to include everybody in the benefits, or at least not start to disadvantage a section of the community because something suits yourself.

With my proposal I advertised it for comment before submitting it then ensured that people were aware of it so they could make submissions to MNZ on the proposal if they wished. Thats democracy and doing ones best ensure a good outcome.

Proposed rule changes submitted by stealth for the benefit of a few ..... I am not sure what that is but here is your chance to tell me.

Only that they would be running a considerable displacement disadvantage unless they stroked them. Can't remember what they go to but 112-117cc (Mb100) or something with no wait for it no oversize's.

[F5 Dave]

Rob clearly a 107 air cooled with 24 km carb would be up to 23cc smaller than allowed. That would be dumb and you know it. You always drastically shoot down anyone else getting an amendment but try push something that suits you and often disproportionately. That is self interest personified.

[TZ350]

So Rob, you've done well to reduce the impact of the 24. But given some development and a 35mm flatslide would you bet against getting more power?

By just changing the carburettor to 35mm and tuning it properly, ..... yes.

310437

Not a flat slide, but a serious back to back comparison between a 24mm OKO red line and a 30mm OKO blue line. Everything was carefully optimised between tests.

My thoughts from this experiment was that there were bigger blocks to my engines performance than carb size.

[F5 Dave]

Hence need to optimise for larger carb. But clearly an improvement in spread straight away. I'd be pretty happy to see that improvement for a mod I'd done. 35 is a conservative size for a 125.

[TZ350]

Rob clearly a 107 air cooled with 24 mm carb would be up to 23cc smaller than allowed. That would be dumb and you know it.

It would be cheap, I thought that was the bums on seats point.

[husaberg]

It would be cheap, I thought that was the bums on seats point.

It was about bums on bikes not bun fights, so don't get cross.

[TZ350]

... clearly an improvement in spread straight away.

Yes 150rpm extra, not to be sneezed at for sure, but not the big power difference up top one might have expected.


Rob. You always drastically shoot down anyone else getting an amendment but try push something that suits you and often disproportionately. That is self interest personified.

My current proposal opens a way for you to use later technology and newer engines that you can get good water cooled cylinders for relativly cheaply. And put something together that is lightweight with reasonable power and reliable and could foot it with the best 4T's.

You already own the basis for one of these pointy end racers, all you have to do is the work. Not much is involved, all easy to get stuff, aftermarket 70cc cylinder, scooter pipe, small turbo and your away, no de stroked cranks, or ferreting around for that hard to find piston etc, none of that old school Bucket plava just a good honest reliable engine that is in current production fitted with store bought aftermarket parts. Nearly anyone could do it.

What surprises me is that someone would put in a proposal that erodes the already disadvantaged air cooled 125's even further and is then offended when its opposed. I like the idea of KT100 pistons, it makes sense but you need to think inclusively.

[TZ350]

I think this is a futile debate the only way around this impasse it is to ask for a rule amendment banning any ethanol based fuels:clap: Pretty sure the majority of the 4T brigade would back that...;)..

I am pretty sure the 4T majority like being able to legally fill up with 98/E10 and add a bit of octane boost if they want to on their way to the track. For me, I like to pre mixing my oil in Av gas, with that rule gone, everyone is legally happy.


It was about bums on bikes not bun fights, so don't get cross.

Love it .... and this is probably the debate we should have had before the proposed 107cc rule change was submitted because in itself KT100 pistons are a real good idea.

[Yow Ling]

When was the last time a bucket was tech inspected ?
Do what you like, nobody will check

[TZ350]

When was the last time a bucket was tech inspected ?

There was talk of it at the last GP, something like the first three plus two at random but another issue got in the way (saved you guys, no need to thank me ... :blink:). It would have been easy enough as Robin, the MNZ official had a nearby motorcycle business.

[kel]

The ethanol fuel which would obviously benefit some subclasses more than others.(his augment that it would not)
:scratch: Was there ever a rule amendment request put forward, NO there was not. It was debated on here and the general consensus was no so there it died. I have never requested a rule change, Its true I have supported the sensible ones, and its also true I have submitted arguments against the ones that favour one group of owners/racers over others. If that's self serving then so be it, I'll wear it with pride :Punk:

[chrisc]

Wasn't this thread about "A crashed bucket"?

Just saying

[TZ350]

Talking about fuel, while trying to sort out the EFI thing I had swapped from Av Gas to 96 to save some money, Well the up shot is I poisoned myself with the 96 oct fumes and became sick to the point where I have had to leave the dyno alone. 10min exposure to 96 oct now leaves me sick for the best part of the following day. This never happened with Av Gas, I guess the lead is killing me in a different way but I did not feel sick after 2-3 hours on the dyno using Av Gas. From a health point of view my preferred fuel would have to be E85, Kel is right E85 has a lot going for it.

[kel]

Kel is right E85 has a lot going for it.

Make that E100 and we could drink the left overs at the end of a hard days racing :dodge:

Sorry Chris, you were saying something about crashing your bucket?

[chrisc]

Sorry Chris, you were saying something about crashing your bucket?

You miss heard me, I was talking about you crashing trying to chase Cricket.

[F5 Dave]

Yes 150rpm extra, not to be sneezed at for sure, but not the big power difference up top one might have expected.



My current proposal opens a way for you to use later technology and newer engines that you can get good water cooled cylinders for relativly cheaply. And put something together that is lightweight with reasonable power and reliable and could foot it with the best 4T's.

You already own the basis for one of these pointy end racers, all you have to do is the work. Not much is involved, all easy to get stuff, aftermarket 70cc cylinder, scooter pipe, small turbo and your away, no de stroked cranks, or ferreting around for that hard to find piston etc, none of that old school Bucket plava just a good honest reliable engine that is in current production fitted with store bought aftermarket parts. Nearly anyone could do it.

What surprises me is that someone would put in a proposal that erodes the already disadvantaged air cooled 125's even further and is then offended when its opposed. I like the idea of KT100 pistons, it makes sense but you need to think inclusively.
I don't have a spare Derbi. I have an F5 bike.

I also don't have the money to start again with cheque book parts for an F4. Or the youth and time to risk a turbo development path. I wish I'd started with something better than the MB. I've done little development. Mostly re engineering problems.

[speedpro]

I wish I'd started with something better than the MB.

blasphemy! :eek5: :motu:

[TZ350]

On the motors that broke their pins was the de stroking done with an offset pin or by offsetting the pin hole?

Is there a bigend pin size like 22mm that would be suitable to use for de stroking by offsetting the pin hole itself.

How much de stroke are we talking about, so we could use the full range of KT pistons in a MB100.

Is there a better rod combo ie longer rod and bigger big end pin that would add something to the MB's performance ie more crankcase volume (if thats needed).

How many people want to run MB100's

Would a square ish engine close to 52x52 be better ie 110cc than an over square de stroked engine (would mean plus 10% for everyone though)??

I am not sure if I can help, but does anyone have a spare MB100 crank I could look at? preferably one I could take apart.

[F5 Dave]

Stepped broke despite generous radiud, but Mike's million dollar made from scratch ones survived. Offset is what using now which undermines the seal surfaces and magnitude harder to setup than boring an existing hole bigger which is child's play by comparison. You have to go to 48.3 to run up to 52.3 could be .2 can't remember.

52x52 is just over 110% with no rebores either. 7% would be enough. That would be 133 for airs and 160 for bangers. Pretty close to now.

[TZ350]

7% would be enough. That would be 133 for airs and 160 for bangers. Pretty close to now.

We are all in this together, I could go with 133 which would allow all four common 0.5mm (used to be eight at 0.25mm each but times have changed) oversize steps out to 2mm OS for the 125's and 160cc for bangers but I could also look at getting a run of cranks done for a real modest amount say $150 each (thats about what it costs me for a piston) would that help, probably need to do five units at least to make the setup cost worthwhile, would there be any serious takers do you think?

Anyway there are alternatives.

[Bert]

Stepped broke despite generous radiud, but Mike's million dollar made from scratch ones survived. Offset is what using now which undermines the seal surfaces and magnitude harder to setup than boring an existing hole bigger which is child's play by comparison. You have to go to 48.3 to run up to 52.3 could be .2 can't remember.

52x52 is just over 110% with no rebores either. 7% would be enough. That would be 133 for airs and 160 for bangers. Pretty close to now.


We are all in this together, I could go with 133 which would allow all four common 0.5mm (used to be eight at 0.25mm each but times have changed) oversize steps out to 2mm OS for the 125's and 160cc for bangers but I could also look at getting a run of cranks done for a real modest amount say $150 each (thats about what it costs me for a piston) would that help, probably need to do five units at least to make the setup cost worthwhile, would there be any serious takers do you think?

Anyway there are alternatives.

I've been thinking along the same lines for a couple of years now.
7% does offer the best across the board rebore options.
Keeps the 100s going
Opens up a few more 125 options
And the fours are happy too giving another oversize not currently an option...

But man if someone has a bloody cry about this again the next decade :girlfight::girlfight:

[F5 Dave]

. . . we`ll all be on 250s, but they'll be diesels, like proper diesils.

[husaberg]

. . . we`ll all be on 250s, but they'll be diesels, like proper diesils.

No what will happen is we finally all agree on something and are all sweet until right at the last minute someone will suggest MX85's.............:innocent:

[TZ350]

I've been thinking along the same lines for a couple of years now. 7% does offer the best across the board rebore options. Keeps the 100s going Opens up a few more 125 options And the fours are happy too giving another oversize not currently an option...

I am for it.


right at the last minute someone will suggest MX85's.............:innocent:

I am hoping it will go something like this:-

70cc forced induction 2T
MX85
100cc 2T
100cc forced induction 4T
125cc air cooled 24mm carb 2T
150cc 4T

+7% oversize allowance for everything but the MX85's (they are plated bores anyway, so its cylinder replacements for them)

It might be hard to change things for the other classes this year but we could pull together and get the 100's their 7% and if we can't get the same for the others too this time then maybe next year we could all pull together and even the playing field with a 7% proposal for the classes that missed out this time and maybe it would also be time to talk about the MX85's too.

Easier and better than pissing around with MB100 cranks (or any of the 100cc cranks for that matter), what do others think???

[husaberg]

I am hoping it will go something like this:-

70cc forced induction 2T
MX85
100cc 2T
100cc forced induction 4T
125cc air cooled 24mm carb 2T
150cc 4T

+7% oversize allowance for everything but the MX85's

It might be hard to change things for the others this year but we could pull together and get the 100's their 7% and if we can't get the same for the others too this time then maybe next year we could all pull together and even the playing field with a 7% proposal for the classes that missed out this time and maybe it would be time to talk about the MX85's too.

Easier than pissing around with MB100 cranks (or any of the 100cc cranks for that matter), what do others think???

explain to me again why the 4t would need even more cc's though

[Yow Ling]

I am hoping it will go something like this:-

70cc forced induction 2T
MX85
100cc 2T
100cc forced induction 4T
125cc air cooled 24mm carb 2T
150cc 4T

+7% oversize allowance for everything but the MX85's

It might be hard to change things for the others this year but we could pull together and get the 100's their 7% and if we can't get the same for the others too this time then maybe next year we could all pull together and even the playing field with a 7% proposal for the classes that missed out this time and then maybe it would be time to talk about the MX85's too.

Easier and better than pissing around with MB100 cranks (or any of the 100cc cranks for that matter), what do others think???
If it was to be fair wouldnt the 85's be allowed rebores as well?

[Yow Ling]

the problem with rebores, especially with the fxrs is nobody uses it first 3 oversizes and just goes to +2mm, one rider skipped over the whole rebore thing and added the 8cc by stroking.

[TZ350]

If it was to be fair wouldn't the 85's be allowed rebores as well?

Just talking about 85's is radical enough, looks like they are probably going to come in but it appears to late to do anything about them this year, maybe a good thing, gives us a chance to thrash the details out properly for next year.

[husaberg]

If it was to be fair wouldnt the 85's be allowed rebores as well?

don't they all have nisksil?
Anyway I hate the thought of them they are wrong on so many levels..........

[TZ350]

If we can't do anything about it now, lets save the 85 conversation for a little later.

What is important now is the 100cc 2T's and their 7%, lets get this one out of the way first.


I've been thinking along the same lines for a couple of years now. 7% does offer the best across the board rebore options.

After Berts comments I am warming to it, everyone is free to make their own submissions to MNZ of course, but what is the consensus? could we support it as a group?

[kel]

7% does offer the best across the board rebore options.
Probably right, but that's not the current rule change put forward to MNZ

[TZ350]

Probably right, but that's not the current rule change put forward to MNZ

True, but if we support it as a group we might be able to get it across the whole F4 class or at least lay a solid foundation for next year for the capacities that missed out this time. Anyway I am warming to it.

[kel]

The 107cc saying it was all about a couple of people but mainly me when it was obviously not,

Are you for real, you don't even have a bucket (possibly something hidden in the back of the shed, who knows). Sorry dude but you weren't even considered, hilarious that you're thinking this way though. Come on give us a :hug:

[husaberg]

Are you for real, you don't even have a bucket (possibly something hidden in the back of the shed, who knows). Sorry dude but you weren't even considered, hilarious that you're thinking this way though. Come on give us a :hug:


Well I'm claiming credit for crushing the 100 overbore nonsense last year, someone else will need to do it this year as I don't have a MNZ licence. Should be the same argument as last time, the rule should apply to, or benefit all. It can't be to the exclusive benefit of one (or two) bike owners who can't be bothered de-stroking.

We all love the "s" as it sends Husaberg in to a tailspin :lol:
....................
what I do have finished is the molds and dies for the head and the cylinders for a RSW about $7000 tied up with them that I was going to sell as rough castings at cost only for each and I can assure you none are going to anywhere near north of Palmy now.
other than the one I promised Rob . If you think they don't Kel exist ask Scott Grif.

[Bert]

As a long time supporter of the 80/85cc concept, I still see no real way to allow them without a control period, thus makes the conversation irrelevant.
Maybe a few more like Glens (people willing to race for no points) then we can make a true and valid decision.

[kel]

And of course they left the S in

12345678910 characters :brick:

[speedpro]

Well well well. The 107cc bit is now missing from the proposed amendment, if it was ever there. "If" it was ever proposed, and I have never seen it, you would think the proposer would have meant to allow increased capacity and retained the other advantages of the original F4 H2O 2T. If not then whoever proposed it is an idiot. Having said that, going that little bit bigger, retaining H2O, but being restricted to a 24mm carb is not such a silly trade-off.

KT pistons with their miniscule oversize steps, watercooling, smaller capacity than the air-cooled 125 2Ts, and the same carb restriction. Essentially it would end up being a trade between 20cc and watercooling.

[kel]

Well well well. The 107cc bit is now missing from the proposed amendment, if it was ever there.

:killingme hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Well done Mr Ling, well done in deed :clap:

[TZ350]

:killingme hilarious, absolutely hilarious. Well done Mr Ling, well done in deed :clap:

Whaat, well you can't trust anybody these days, anyway its got me thinking and 7% allround is looking like a good idea. Maybe next year.

[TZ350]

Well well well. The 107cc bit is now missing from the proposed amendment, if it was ever there.

The 107cc thing is near the bottom of page 9.




2015 Proposed Rule Changes for all RR Classes.

310428


This is the original that I downloaded and posted on here yesterday.

Probably affects Kart Track people the most, but Bucketeers better take a look at the crashing during a race proposed changes, page 4, 22.1.3 and have your say or there will be no coming back from a crash and winning the GP or finishing the 2 hour in the future, no matter how talented the ride.

[jasonu]

I've been thinking along the same lines for a couple of years now.
7% does offer the best across the board rebore options.
Keeps the 100s going
Opens up a few more 125 options
And the fours are happy too giving another oversize not currently an option...

But man if someone has a bloody cry about this again the next decade :girlfight::girlfight:

Would 7% let in those forza155 shitters?

[F5 Dave]

None of them will be working by now

[Yow Ling]

Well well well. The 107cc bit is now missing from the proposed amendment, if it was ever there. "If" it was ever proposed, and I have never seen it

Read the last line, no wonder there is so much trouble with the rules, nobody reads them

Appendix D – MNZ Championship Classes
ATV
Senior
All engines must be ATV Based (except Superquad)
Championship Classes:
Premier: 400 – 450cc Restricted to OEM chassis crankcase bore = stroke
Veteran (40 years plus): 0 – 750cc Open
Women (15 years plus): 0 – 750cc Open
450cc Production – see restrictions in Chapter 11
Open Trike
Super Quad – Open Motorcycle Engine (Super Quads must be machine examined)
ATV
Junior
All engines must be ATV based
Championship Classes:
125cc Production: 9-12 years – see restrictions in Chapter 11
250cc Production: 10-16 years – see restrictions in Chapter 11
9-12 years – Max Cap 100cc 2 stroke/165cc 4 stroke (Can be modified)
12-14 years – Max Cap 100cc 2 stroke/165cc 4 stroke (Can be modified)
ATV
Mini
Championship Class:
7-11 years – Max Cap 100cc, air cooled, auto clutch (homologated)
Support Classes:
At any National or Island Championship, the host club may in addition to the Championship classes run the following support classes:
Mini: 4-8 years 50cc Homologated
Clubman: 0-750cc Open
MINIATURE TT
Senior
Championship Classes:
Class 7: ATV Premier
Add - Class 10: ATV 450cc Production – see restrictions in Chapter 11
Junior
Championship Classes
Class 9: ATV 250cc Production – see restrictions in Chapter 11
Remove ‘Superstock 1000’ paragraph (after Tourist Trophy & Grand Prix Titles)
SUPER MOTARD - to be made bold
Add – Super Moto Open Class to the list of classes for Tourist Trophy & Grand Prix Titles
Miniature Road Racing – The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be: F4 2 stroke 55-100cc – 107cc

310482

[bucketracer]

Chapter 22 – Road Racing
22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session. At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for re-examination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

[Bert]

New rules, man someone has done a fair bit of work..

I wander how long until they force the integral belly pan / lower fairing oil tray into buckets...
4.5l catch requirements might be a little over the top though, unless they think you might catch all the oil from the entire front row of the grid...

Then there is the engine casing protection rules being added across the classes.

If these rules pass for the bigger classes (which they likely will), expect the trickle down effect over the next couple of years. Maybe time to start thinking about how you would apply those rules in the future...
Even suggest/remit a sensible set of parallel rules, before they are forced.....

[speedpro]

oops, was only looking at the rule and not the appendix.

[TZ350]

Chapter 22 – Road Racing
22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session. At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for re-examination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

In regards to proposed rule change:

22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session. At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for reexamination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

I think this is a good change for the safety of riders and I do support it overall, particularly on large and fast tracks.

APPLICATION TO BUCKET RACING
There has been discussion around bucket riders about how this applies to the racing we do. Currently any crashed bucket needs to be removed from the track and be inspected before being allowed to continue the session. This is because most cashes are low level crashes, mainly slow low sides. Any major crash red flags the race like normal.

This rule change will likely have no real affect to our normal sprint races but will have a considerable affect to races like the 2 hour endurance race and the 40 lap Grand Prix we run every year. It is common for riders to come off, have their bike checked, and still complete the race. Sometimes they even come back and win the race still.

PROPOSED UPDATE TO THE RULE CHANGE
After discussion amongst the bucket community, we propose that this rule come with an exception for miniature road racing for races run only on go kart tracks. or other small low speed venues such as car parks, airfields etc.

22.1.3a - Rule 22.1.3 does not apply to miniature road races held on go-kart race tracks or similar small and low speed racing venues. In this case, all machines that crash during a practice, qualifying or racing must be checked by the designated official before recommencing the session.

[jasonu]

In regards to proposed rule change:

22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session. At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for reexamination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

I think this is a good change for the safety of riders and I do support it overall, particularly on large and fast tracks.

APPLICATION TO BUCKET RACING
There has been discussion around bucket riders about how this applies to the racing we do. Currently any crashed bucket needs to be removed from the track and be inspected before being allowed to continue the session. This is because most cashes are low level crashes, mainly slow low sides. Any major crash red flags the race like normal.

This rule change will likely have no real affect to our normal sprint races but will have a considerable affect to races like the 2 hour endurance race and the 40 lap Grand Prix we run every year. It is common for riders to come off, have their bike checked, and still complete the race. Sometimes they even come back and win the race still.

PROPOSED UPDATE TO THE RULE CHANGE
After discussion amongst the bucket community, we propose that this rule come with an exception for miniature road racing for races run only on go kart tracks. or other small low speed venues such as car parks, airfields etc.

22.1.3a - Rule 22.1.3 does not apply to miniature road races held on go-kart race tracks or similar small and low speed racing venues. In this case, all machines that crash during a practice, qualifying or racing must be checked by the designated official before recommencing the session.

Be sure to define 'crash'.

[FJRider]

Be sure to define 'crash'.

A NON-intentional stopping on the circuit ... derived from loss of control or contact with another rider ... by the rider.

[F5 Dave]

That's a bad definition. Running off the track a bit would count. Or a counter would be "oh I intended to do that"

[FJRider]

That's a bad definition. Running off the track a bit would count. Or a counter would be "oh I intended to do that"

The keyword being Intentional ... ;)

[F5 Dave]

That sounds easy to prove. Bar or helmet was last used def. But perhaps Bar and any body part other than foot, knee, or if yer keen, elbow.

[Bert]

Maybe it envokes the: must maintain racepace...
Bloody hard to do that sitting on your ass holding the bars off the ground...
If you have to stand on your feet to lift the bike up to its rideable position for you to then hop back on, I'd say that's a crash...

Now what about push starting a bike on the track during a race. I can't see how that is maintaining race pace either and against the current rules...

[speights_bud]

I've just been reading through the proposed rule change PDF sent out by MNZ.

Fark me its full of spelling errors, wrong words and sentences that need full stops etc to make them readable.

I'm no Grammar Nazi (as you can tell from above) and am happy to be proven wrong. It looks like no one has bothered to proof read with any integrity, perhaps they have simply copy pasted from the submissions & Commissioners emails. I will email these to MNZ.:

-All sections about belly pans needing fitment:
"Machines where the upper section of the exhaust header could come in with oil are expected (for example Ducati Panagale)."
should read Exempt?

All sections about shark fins being fitted:
-Machines where swingarm shape or positioning prevents fitment are excepted (for example Yamaha R1).
Should read Exempt?

Appendix L:
-This homologated motorcycle must be a street type, road registerable and Wof mass production machine, available and sold new in New Zealand.
-What is a "WOF mass production machine"...? -To be registered a motorcycle must first pass a WOF so therefore the "WOF" is an unnecessary requirement.

Appendix L:
1. Twin cylinder four stroke engines from 260cc up to 325 cc Single cylinder four stroke engines from 260cc to 400cc.

-Revise into 2 sentences or bullet points to clarify between machine classification.

Appendix L:
9 e) Headlight, rear light and blinkers must be removed
Change "Blinkers" to "indicators"

[speedpro]

Proof read by the same person who writes the Yahoo news articles

[jasonu]

I've just been reading through the proposed rule change PDF sent out by MNZ.

Fark me its full of spelling errors, wrong words and sentences that need full stops etc to make them readable.

I'm no Grammar Nazi (as you can tell from above) and am happy to be proven wrong. It looks like no one has bothered to proof read with any integrity, perhaps they have simply copy pasted from the submissions & Commissioners emails. I will email these to MNZ.:

-All sections about belly pans needing fitment:
"Machines where the upper section of the exhaust header could come in with oil are expected (for example Ducati Panagale)."
should read Exempt?

All sections about shark fins being fitted:
-Machines where swingarm shape or positioning prevents fitment are excepted (for example Yamaha R1).
Should read Exempt?

Appendix L:
-This homologated motorcycle must be a street type, road registerable and Wof mass production machine, available and sold new in New Zealand.
-What is a "WOF mass production machine"...? -To be registered a motorcycle must first pass a WOF so therefore the "WOF" is an unnecessary requirement.

Appendix L:
1. Twin cylinder four stroke engines from 260cc up to 325 cc Single cylinder four stroke engines from 260cc to 400cc.

-Revise into 2 sentences or bullet points to clarify between machine classification.

Appendix L:
9 e) Headlight, rear light and blinkers must be removed
Change "Blinkers" to "indicators"

You are right, it is definitely amature hour. It looks and sounds like pidgeon engrish.

[Bert]

You are right, it is definitely amature hour. It looks and sounds like pidgeon engrish.

I'm assumed with the construct, with the different types of named machinery not relevant for the class used to describe...
Kawasaki Ninja 250 named in the super bike regs.. I know it is to provide an example, but...

And, the whole Ducati header example (oil catch belly pans) makes no sense: it's like half the sentence is missing..

And superlites (F3) the removal of the need to use standard airbox's... Hummmm more power and potential bias shift in a class that is currently working.:facepalm:

[mr bucketracer]

so glen w has been hanging around me to long? he can't help it . lol:drinknsin

[TALLIS]

@ lest itz not n txt langwg. Even though that's ok for collegetests these days apparently.....:facepalm:

[koba]

In regards to proposed rule change:

22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session. At the end of that session crashed machines must be delivered to the Machine Examiners for reexamination and Gear Check before re-entering the circuit. Riders that continue after crashing must be reported to the Clerk of the Course.

I think this is a good change for the safety of riders and I do support it overall, particularly on large and fast tracks.

APPLICATION TO BUCKET RACING
There has been discussion around bucket riders about how this applies to the racing we do. Currently any crashed bucket needs to be removed from the track and be inspected before being allowed to continue the session. This is because most cashes are low level crashes, mainly slow low sides. Any major crash red flags the race like normal.

This rule change will likely have no real affect to our normal sprint races but will have a considerable affect to races like the 2 hour endurance race and the 40 lap Grand Prix we run every year. It is common for riders to come off, have their bike checked, and still complete the race. Sometimes they even come back and win the race still.

PROPOSED UPDATE TO THE RULE CHANGE
After discussion amongst the bucket community, we propose that this rule come with an exception for miniature road racing for races run only on go kart tracks. or other small low speed venues such as car parks, airfields etc.

22.1.3a - Rule 22.1.3 does not apply to miniature road races held on go-kart race tracks or similar small and low speed racing venues. In this case, all machines that crash during a practice, qualifying or racing must be checked by the designated official before recommencing the session.

Adding some less than complete thoughts...

Regarding 22.1.3
The post quoted is great.
As mentioned, defining a crash is important.
As is stating a clearly defined penalty for rejoining without inspection. (Let's stay constructive here, we know why that is important).
Is disqualification for failing to be re-inspected reasonable?

Defining 'low' speed might help or hurt, if speed by number was defined someone would have to monitor it, sounds too hard. I think your wording is good.


Regarding Overbores.
I like 7% as an OVERBORE, IE the engine starts under that size and can be increased to allow repair.
I best not get started on the Forza thing.
Some People will always got straight to the biggest, it's a calculated risk, not everybody does. I'd be screwed if I had as I run a rattly old MB on standard pattern pistons.
(16x the Price of Mike's legendary batch of cheap KT pistons)

[speights_bud]

MNZ promptly replied to my email today, said they had fixed the spelling errors and put my 2c on a few other changes forward.

Get your emails sent about your opinions on the changes and then you have the right to moan.

Just like the election, if you don't vote, you have no right to moan

[Bert]

MNZ promptly replied to my email today, said they had fixed the spelling errors and put my 2c on a few other changes forward.

Get your emails sent about your opinions on the changes and then you have the right to moan.

Just like the election, if you don't vote, you have no right to moan

So true...

[kel]

As mentioned, defining a crash is important.
How about "you all know what a crash is don't try and be a smart arse about it" That sounds "pretty legal" to me (got that one from Steven Joyce)


As is stating a clearly defined penalty for rejoining without inspection.
how about "you don't get to race for the rest of the event as you can't follow the rules"


Is disqualification for failing to be re-inspected reasonable?
Nah carry on as if nothing has happened, the rules are for others :mad:


I like 7% as an OVERBORE
I don't suppose you have an MB by chance? It just so happens you can have your 7% oversize, you just have to use a 24mm carb and forgo any plans of water cooling :yes: Welcome to our world.

[F5 Dave]

Not just an MB of course. And stop being a dick about it 107 vs 130 doesn't cut it.

[Grumph]

Not just an MB of course. And stop being a dick about it 107 vs 130 doesn't cut it.

On big tracks and long races the water cooling over rides the capacity difference - as you well know Dave....

[koba]

How about "you all know what a crash is don't try and be a smart arse about it" That sounds "pretty legal" to me (got that one from Steven Joyce)

how about "you don't get to race for the rest of the event as you can't follow the rules"

Nah carry on as if nothing has happened, the rules are for others :mad:

I don't suppose you have an MB by chance? It just so happens you can have your 7% oversize, you just have to use a 24mm carb and forgo any plans of water cooling :yes: Welcome to our world.

The intentions of thig said on the internet sometime come across wrong, when there is all sort of subtle inflections missing.
This reads like you are trying to be a dick, is that the case?


Edit:
You know I have an MB, I said it in that post.

As for actually answering the question, I've spoken AGAINST giving the 100's the extra to allow kart pistons on a standard MB bore (In the past).

I'm now not so sure, I won't be destroking mine anytime soon so I will remain on standard MB type pistons with the associated limitations.
(They aren't stong, get the timing out a whisker and they are goneburger, the piston reliefs limit port sizes, they have a big heavy un-revvy ring, they cost a lot more than KT pistons, they have limited oversizes)

As I said in that post, I'm just spitballing this, I'm not firm enough to make a submission yet.

[kel]

This reads like you are trying to be a dick,

Oh man now you've done it


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6lg51dzWHJE

[F5 Dave]

A draft I bashed up a few years back but it didn't progress for one reason or another. Didn't allow to use the oversizes so a slightly bigger one would be better. Note I did spot the carb restriction.



Chapter 24 MNZ rulebook
Miniature road racing


To increase the oversize capacity restriction for F4 100cc 2 strokes.


Many of these engines are getting worn. Pistons are getting harder to get. In a similar vein that the recently changed F4 restriction for 150cc 4 strokes was increased to more oversizes (158.09cc) it is suggested that the current 104cc restriction is increased to 106.2cc.

This would allow a popular, cheap & easily available 52mm KT100 piston to be used in several models (TS100, TF100, GP100, MB100, H100, A100 etc) without having to destroke the crank (an expensive exercise).



Additionally amend:
F4 2 stroke engines over 106.2cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor


Was 104cc

[kel]

Just in case people had forgotten


Maybe a list of engines that would benefit and the maximum KT100 piston OS that the shorter stroke MB100 could use compared to the others and I think we would see it was more of a benefit to the few than the many.


Many over-sizes!!!! well not on the Suzuki GP/TF/TS or any of the other motors with a 50mm stroke, with these motors your over the 107cc limit with a 0.25mm OS KT100 piston.

Exactly!

KT100 pistons are a great idea but (and again I'll repeat it) rule changes can't benefit one group of motor owners over all others. For this year IF the rule change goes through you WILL be limited to a 24mm carb and air cooling.

[F5 Dave]

So the list is above. You could also include DT100 & RS 100, but RS aren't common in NZ I think.

0.25 is 5 o/s aftermarket, or 4 using genuine. How many do you want before you call it many? Bearing in mind Suzuki only list 2 for their engines.

And the 52 is an oversize in itself.

[F5 Dave]

That's not a rule change or the intention of the rule change, clearly the 125 AC 24mm rule was already in place.

[F5 Dave]

Adding some less than complete thoughts...

Regarding 22.1.3
The post quoted is great.
As mentioned, defining a crash is important.
As is stating a clearly defined penalty for rejoining without inspection. (Let's stay constructive here, we know why that is important).
Is disqualification for failing to be re-inspected reasonable?

Defining 'low' speed might help or hurt, if speed by number was defined someone would have to monitor it, sounds too hard. I think your wording is good.
)

A gem from an old Jody's box (col. in US MX mag I used to read as a kid). You might have heard me utter it.


In a nutshell, crashing can be defined in 11
words: "One second my hands were full; the next they were empty"





But I think you'll find the new definition will be
Bike has stopped forward motion & is leaned over more than 45 degrees or rider parted company with the bike. I like this definition.
[/COLOR][/FONT]

[jasonu]

A gem from an old Jody's box (col. in US MX mag I used to read as a kid). You might have heard me utter it.
[/COLOR][/FONT]

Jody Weisel of MXA (Motorcross Action) Still going strong.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah that's right. My grandad kindly bought me a copy when I was sick ( I asked for BMX action).

Hmm the colour on that quote went funny for dark side. Fixed it

[jasonu]

Yeah that's right. My grandad kindly bought me a copy when I was sick ( I asked for BMX action).

Hmm the colour on that quote went funny for dark side. Fixed it

Your Grandad did you a favor.

[TZ350]

Only a few days left for making submissions on any of the proposed rule changes:- http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2015-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website4196fb456e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn =2

Below is my submission on the proposed new safety rule where it is proposed a competitor can't rejoin a race after a crash. On the face of it, it looks a good idea but I think a disadvantage to the sport where Bucket race meetings are held at Kart tracks.


I submit that the F4 and F5 (Bucket RR and Sidecar) classes racing on Kart Tracks be excluded from the proposed 22.1.3 rule change.

“”Chapter 22 – Road Racing 22.1.3 – All machines that crash during practice, qualifying or racing cannot continue that session.””

The proposed 22.1.3 rule change on the face of it is a very good idea but overly disadvantages and is counter productive for what is possibly the biggest group in Road Racing, F4 & F5 (Buckets). Because Bucket races which are held on Kart tracks, often have comparatively long races which are characterised by low impact dismounts and minor crashes.

And being a Kart track, easy access to the pits for a machine re examination. Having to completely withdraw from a race at a Kart track after a minor crash, would severely deplete the field in the more important and longer Bucket races for no good reason.

Endurance Bucket races and GP’s already practice a safety re check routine after an off or minor crash for a quick pit stop for a machine check before re joining the fray.

This allows competitors to develop the focus needed to remain in contention as demonstrated by the winner of the last F4 and F5 GP’s run on the Tokoroa Kart track. The F5 GP was won after an enforced pit stop and the F4 after the eventual winner recovered from an off early in the race. Both examples of not letting events faze them and very determined and focused riding, necessary skills for anyone who aspires to be a world class rider.

I submit that the F4 and F5 (Bucket RR and Sidecar) classes racing on Kart Tracks be excluded from the proposed 22.1.3 rule change.

MNZ License 2188

[F5 Dave]

Don't feel like I had a minor impact. Was just watching a GP where the rider crashed, remounted and continued.

[Grumph]

Don't feel like I had a minor impact. Was just watching a GP where the rider crashed, remounted and continued.

Yeah, but....it was seen and would have been reported by radio to the race director who would have asked the marshals to do a visual report as to whether it was visibly damaged or dropping fluids....This facility is available at the national rounds so you'd think we could use it. But Nooooo.

So teezee's asking for an exemption for short Kart tracks where it is obviously very possible to miss a crash entirely and a radio link is usually wishful thinking...may not get through IMO. Again, MNZ has to be seen to be proactive in the H&S area - even if it is a tad hypocritical.

[Buddha#81]

There is a multitude of unseen issues. I have seen first hand a young very experienced chch rider slam into a tyre wall and fold the front wheel under the motor & put himself in a ambulance riding back to the pit after a warm up lap bin. Even though he tested the front brakes by the time he needed them to safely negotiate pit lane they had totally failed.

[koba]

Submission sent:

Hi there,
I'm keen to make a submission on a proposed rule change.
My friend has already basically said the same thing, I've included his words below in blue as He's conveyed my feelings exactly I see no point in re-writing it.
I do think that re-scrutineering is a reasonable requirement but to exclude a crashed ride completely would really impinge on the fun and fairness of our race meetings, (Most of them on kart tracks.)

Regards...



Buddha, I submitted this before reading your post.
That situation sounds like a bit of a freaky occurrence, quite shit. Perhaps stipulating a 'delicate' pace, out of the way (Nowhere near the raceline) would be a good idea?

[Buddha#81]

Buddha, I submitted this before reading your post.
That situation sounds like a bit of a freaky occurrence, quite shit. Perhaps stipulating a 'delicate' pace, out of the way (Nowhere near the raceline) would be a good idea?

To be fair this was at ruapuna, your bikes are set up quite differently u north and crashes are at a slower pace with less energy involved with more crash protection. Do you like the way I'm sitting on the cook straight fence on this one!?!

[TZ350]

To be fair this was at Ruapuna, your bikes are set up quite differently u north and crashes are at a slower pace with less energy involved with more crash protection. Do you like the way I'm sitting on the cook straight fence on this one!?!

I tried to differentiate (probably not very well) in submitting F4 F5 races run on Kart tracks be excluded from the proposed rule change. Bucket races held on full tracks, well that is different.

A variety of opinions is good as MNZ welcomes all input so they can make informed decisions. Check out the proposed rule changes here:- http://www.mnz.co.nz/docs/default-source/regulations/2015-summary-of-all-proposed-rule-changes-for-website4196fb456e51694ab575ff0000938921.pdf?sfvrsn =2 its important to submit feedback where you can, there are only a few days left.

[Buddha#81]

The brains trust at MNZ has a bucket influence so I'm sure the best decision will be made.....hopefully......surely

[koba]

To be fair this was at ruapuna, your bikes are set up quite differently u north and crashes are at a slower pace with less energy involved with more crash protection. Do you like the way I'm sitting on the cook straight fence on this one!?!

Yeah, nice work!

[kel]

KT100 pistons are a great idea but (and again I'll repeat it) rule changes can't benefit one group of motor owners over all others. For this year IF the rule change goes through you WILL be limited to a 24mm carb and air cooling.

And so it has come to pass. Bore away boys, just remember the 24mm carb :bleh: ps we can shorten and taper bore your 24mm carb for a small fee (small just like the carb:lol:) .

015 RATIFIED RULE CHANGES – Effective 1st of August 2015
Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature

24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors (for Husa) and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

Miniature Road Racing – The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55 – 110cc

[FastFred]

Great to be able to use the 52mm KT100 pistons but the over 104cc 24mm carb rule still applies .... :crybaby:

MNZ trying to keep it fair for the the 125 air cooled's I suppose and it would be selfish to argue with that.

Still, its great to be able to legally use those cheap pistons and get some more life out of the old 100's. Cheap pistons and no potential big bore performance advantage, the whole thing just looks like commonsense by MNZ to me.

[speedpro]

It's amusing that a 24mm carb is still seen as a restriction. Properly implemented it clearly is not a restriction. Check the ESE thread for confirmation.

[TZ350]

313811

My best Team ESE dyno session ever with the 1980 Suzuki GP125 and 24mm carb.

[jasonu]

It's amusing that a 24mm carb is still seen as a restriction. Properly implemented it clearly is not a restriction. Check the ESE thread for confirmation.

But Mike have any of the high HP 125 2 strokes won anything more than the occasional race (or championships)? From where I sit (10,000 miles away...) it looks like those bikes spend more time blowing up or flicking their riders down the road than being ridden or doing any significant winning. With the 24mm carb restriction these motors have been tuned to be more high strung to produce competitive HP thus more prone to exploding and peakyness. Therefore the 24mm carb restriction IMO is working.

[speedpro]

I don't see it as a bad thing if people believe a 24mm carb causes any of those troubles. Rob's dyno chart is hardly a picture of peakiness.

[jasonu]

I don't see it as a bad thing if people believe a 24mm carb causes any of those troubles. Rob's dyno chart is hardly a picture of peakiness.

Mike what do you think would happen if the 24mm carb restriction for 125 air cooled 2 strokes was lifted?

I'm not sure which dyno chart you are referring to but what are the race results and reliability of that particular bike? What I am saying is the 24mm rule is forcing builders to over stress and over tune the 125 air cooled motors making them unreliable and hard to ride.
I am not ragging on them, this is just my opinion.

[chrisc]

Isn't blowing up and flicking down the road all part of performance 2 stroke development? There's nothing like learning the hard way!

That GP engine certainly isn't peaky. One day when it all comes together we might see its real potential. Until then I have huge faith in the learning from those engine and body failures (ouch kel). :headbang: team ESE

[kel]

It's amusing that a 24mm carb is still seen as a restriction.
I may well be proved wrong but I think we have pretty much found the limit for power production from the 24mm carb without the aid of a plenum or the like


With the 24mm carb restriction these motors have been tuned to be more high strung to produce competitive HP thus more prone to exploding and peakyness. Therefore the 24mm carb restriction IMO is working.
I'm not sure its the carb to blame for this


Mike what do you think would happen if the 24mm carb restriction for 125 air cooled 2 strokes was lifted?
Even more failures as power would increase further, the air cooling is the true restriction

A reliable 30hp out of a 110cc water cooler would be a piece of cake, its f##k all work and easily the winning option. This rule change is the nail in the air cooler coffin. Next year lets clear the way for an open carb size and finally push the 125 air coolers to the back of the sheds

[andrew a]

Nothing is mentioned about air cooled in the blue . Dose this mean if it is over 104 it can be water cooled an 24mm carb?

[kel]

Nothing is mentioned about air cooled in the blue . Dose this mean if it is over 104 it can be water cooled an 24mm carb?

Up to 110cc can be water cooled, but if greater than 104cc then restricted to 24mm carb.

[andrew a]

Up to 110cc can be water cooled, but if greater than 104cc then restricted to 24mm carb.

Yes but if this is all the rules it dose not mention air cooled. That would mean you could have a water cooled 125 with a restricted 24mm carburetor.

[kel]

Yes but if this is all the rules it dose not mention air cooled. That would mean you could have a water cooled 125 with a restricted 24mm carburetor.

I obviously need a coffee as I can't find the rules on the MNZ site at the moment
You're looking at the rule change for chapter 24, you need to link the rules and appendixes together for the full picture.
The F4 capacity is defined in chapter 10 (maybe?) and read
F4
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

[Yow Ling]

I obviously need a coffee as I can't find the rules on the MNZ site at the moment
You're looking at the rule change for chapter 24, you need to link the rules and appendixes together for the full picture.
The F4 capacity is defined in chapter 10 (maybe?) and read
F4
2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc

here is the rule effective from Aug 1 2015
Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

Linky http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/immediate-rule-changes
Its no longer called the rule book , now it Moms, look under General rules

[husaberg]

here is the rule effective from Aug 1 2015
Chapter 24 – Road Racing – Miniature
24.2 - Engines must be derived from non-competition motorcycles. Motocross, Road Racing, Enduro and Go Kart motors and transmission parts are not permitted. There shall be no restriction on the make, type or design of carburettor, ignition, exhaust, piston, cam, valve springs or cooling system except for class eligibility. All engines must be normally aspirated except F4 4 stroke engines of less than 100cc capacity and F4 2 stroke engines of less than 70cc capacity, which may be turbo or supercharged. F4 2 stroke engines over 104cc are restricted to carburation equivalent to a single 24mm carburettor, F5 4 stroke engines over 53cc are restricted to carburetion equivalent to a single 20mm carburettor.

Linky http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/immediate-rule-changes
Its no longer called the rule book , now it Moms, look under General rules

That's a mess ..............
Not only have they f-ed up the CC for the Carb
They haven't changed appendix d
http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/general-rules

[Pumba]

That's a mess ..............
Not only have they f-ed up the CC for the Carb
They haven't changed appendix d
http://www.mnz.co.nz/regulations/MoMS/general-rules

AWESOME! So you can build a big bore water cooled engine run it all season, but you cannot contest the F4 GP with the same said engine:nya:

The rule book, sorry MoMS, has had that many amendments and copy and paste hatchet jobs that it is really due for a full over hall and reformat

[kel]

Its no longer called the rule book , now it Moms, look under General rules

Great, now I have to check with my Mom to go racing


That's a mess ..............
Not only have they f-ed up the CC for the Carb

I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.


AWESOME! So you can build a big bore water cooled engine run it all season, but you cannot contest the F4 GP with the same said engine:nya:

:facepalm:

[husaberg]

I think the restricted carb would have been a deliberate decision, 110cc water cooled, open carb would make everything else obsolete.



:facepalm:

Really Kelly? just how many hp do you think 6cc will make...........
1.5-1.6hp at most, wow.:lol:
It could have been deliberate if they hadn't forgot to change appendix D.
It does prove that the MNZ doesn't understand the rules for the sport they are meant to govern.

[mr bucketracer]

wish people would stop pissing with rules , if you do one thing it should be across the board:mad:

[Bert]

wish people would stop pissing with rules , if you do one thing it should be across the board:mad:

Maybe a few of us need to get together and have another go at this.
My past experience of writing the special event licence submission: was that it was a mess to hook it all together.
But in this case only Chapter24 and appendixD.
Chapter24 needs breaking into solos and sidecars.
Construction needs linking to Chapter10, but defining what requirements are required.

[Henk]

Maybe a few of us need to get together and have another go at this.
My past experience of writing the special event licence submission: was that it was a mess to hook it all together.
But in this case only Chapter24 and appendixD.
Chapter24 needs breaking into solos and sidecars.
Construction needs linking to Chapter10, but defining what requirements are required.

I vote sidecars get twice the capacity because two people. But only for me and Rick.

[Pumba]

I vote that all bikes + rider must have minimum combined weight of 200kg:corn:

[kel]

wish people would stop pissing with rules , if you do one thing it should be across the board:mad:

Totally agree. The oversizing 100's was a total piss take but its gone through so I intend to exploit it.

[husaberg]

314275................................

[kel]

314275................................

You have it all wrong (now why would that surprise me) 110cc water cooled is fantastic, no other motor in the class will stand a chance against ours.
Air cooled MB100's pfft, Derbi 80's :o, 150 four strokes :lol:

ESE 110cc water cooled game changer :Punk: Game over

[Yow Ling]

You have it all wrong (now why would that surprise me) 110cc water cooled is fantastic, no other motor in the class will stand a chance against ours.
Air cooled MB100's pfft, Derbi 80's :o, 150 four strokes :lol:

ESE 110cc water cooled game changer :Punk: Game over

Maybe the game needed changing, has been changed before, will change again

[F5 Dave]

I don't remember this much bitching when 4 strokes went from 125 to 140cc
Or again to 150cc
Or again to 156 or 158 or whatever it is now
Perhaps selective memory about changing the rules? (Not that I think this rule change went well)

[mr bucketracer]

I don't remember this much bitching when 4 strokes went from 125 to 140cc
Or again to 150cc
Or again to 156 or 158 or whatever it is now
Perhaps selective memory about changing the rules? (Not that I think this rule change went well)as there was a 125 aircooled 2 stroke added ? it worked well together , now a bike that won the gp that has around 85cc then a 2 stroke with 15cc less can have a turbo , what a joke , i know you still got to make it work but seen my mate got 150hp from a standard rz350 with a turbo it only takes somone that knows what there doing , why no lifed the cc 5cc across the board mybe more for the 4 stroke as it fair , i have some 50s i can't race because on max oversize

[Bert]

I vote sidecars get twice the capacity because two people. But only for me and Rick.

Not a bad idea... Maybe stop at 200cc fourstroke though.



I vote that all bikes + rider must have minimum combined weight of 200kg:corn:

Again, not a bad thought - I think 185 might be a better target.

[mr bucketracer]

Not a bad idea... Maybe stop at 200cc fourstroke though.




Again, not a bad thought - I think 185 might be a better target.zxr250 fzr gsxr (-; you know that would sound cool

[TALLIS]

It does seem strange that, in auckland, already dominated at the top level by 2 strokes, that they still seem to want more advantages in engine development. Maybe the rule change was just to give some more fuel to the ese thread for another 1200 pages over and over....

[husaberg]

You have it all wrong (now why would that surprise me) 110cc water cooled is fantastic, no other motor in the class will stand a chance against ours.
Air cooled MB100's pfft, Derbi 80's :o, 150 four strokes :lol:

ESE 110cc water cooled game changer :Punk: Game over

Really? I would think a game changer is 70cc and forced induction.:bleh:
I don't see everyone up in arms about that?


I don't remember this much bitching when 4 strokes went from 125 to 140cc
Or again to 150cc
Or again to 156 or 158 or whatever it is now
Perhaps selective memory about changing the rules? (Not that I think this rule change went well)

Or when they disallowed alcohol fuel for 100 4t's or when they let in race camshafts springs and pistons for 4s.
but yeah a massive potential of 1-1.5 hp from an extra 6cc I can see why that would be very very scary.

[mr bucketracer]

It does seem strange that, in auckland, already dominated at the top level by 2 strokes, that they still seem to want more advantages in engine development. Maybe the rule change was just to give some more fuel to the ese thread for another 1200 pages over and over....maybe they love there more torque and no do ways (-; lol

[TZ350]

It does seem strange that, in auckland, already dominated at the top level by 2 strokes, that they still seem to want more advantages in engine development. Maybe the rule change was just to give some more fuel to the ese thread for another 1200 pages over and over....
maybe they love there more torque and no do ways (-; lol

The 110cc thing did not come from us, in fact we opposed it, (we think a fairer thing would have been plus 10% all round) but now 110cc H2o is here we will exploit it and yes, when we do, you will be able to read all about it on the ESE thread..... :D

[kel]

It does seem strange that, in auckland, already dominated at the top level by 2 strokes, that they still seem to want more advantages in engine development. Maybe the rule change was just to give some more fuel to the ese thread for another 1200 pages over and over....

The increase to 100's was nothing do with the Aucklanders I spoke with, we opposed it as it was a piss take by lazy fuckers trying for a short cut advantage - BUT what the hell its all good, buckets will now be about reliable 30+hp go all day 110cc water coolers (highsiding their way around kart tracks near you). I already know of one of the top 4 stroke guys dumping his bike for a 2 stroke, you'd be stupid not to.

[richban]

The 110cc thing did not come from us, in fact we opposed it, (we think a fairer thing would have been plus 10% all round) but now 110cc H2o is here we will exploit it and yes, when we do, you will be able to read all about it on the ESE thread..... :D

Can I order a 110cc 30hp engine please Rob? My engine is buggered, so what the hell. ESE Spec class.

[speedpro]

A quick reminder - The current Mt Wgtn lap record holder, at least in one direction, is an aircooled 100cc bucket that makes about 23hp. The bucket in 2nd is <100cc watercooled and makes about 24hp. Certainly in Auckland, all the horsepower that the 100cc watercooled 2Ts "could" make has not been exploited and is not therefore an issue. Bumping them out 5cc is not going to make any difference at all. The potential is there, and Rob and I have come close to exploiting that potential, but I'm not expecting a fleet of 110cc watercooled buckets to be taking over later this year. Potentially a fleet of 105cc watercooled buckets could have done so already. It isn't that easy and there is more to it than just horsepower. i.e. - good luck getting past Dave and Nathaniel.

I'm going the 105+cc, eventually watercooled MB, plenum chamber intake, 24mm carb, route. I don't think it will end up making huge horsepower as I just can't be bothered going there, but the plenum if executed how I plan will be interesting.

[Yow Ling]

I only asked for 107cc, they give 110 but kept the 24mm thing. In 5 years when Im way older and probably given up racing somebody might say 110cc is good idea

[FastFred]

110cc is all very well and good but remember its all about a maximum re bore on a 100cc cylinder, it is the maximum capacity you are allowed to re bore to, its not a licence to buy a 110cc after market water cooled cylinder.

My take on it is that its a re bore allowance not a new cylinder allowance. If you have 110cc and you did not get it by re-boring your old cylinder then under the current rules I think you would be illegal.

[husaberg]

110cc is all very well and good but remember its all about a maximum re bore on a 100cc cylinder, it is the maximum capacity you are allowed to re bore to, its not a licence to buy a 110cc after market water cooled cylinder.

My take on it is that its a re bore allowance not a new cylinder allowance. If you have 110cc and you did not get it by re-boring your old cylinder then under the current rules I think you would be illegal.

Fred the 52mm pistons for the MB's and others was all about being able to access cheap pistons (Kt100)without de-stroking.
It also allows the likes of Bren to run a std NSR125 crank so its all good.
Has bren figured that out yet?

[F5 Dave]

I thought 107 would have been just fine with open carb & 3cc increase - big deal. We didn't get that, we got something else.

[Grumph]

I thought 107 would have been just fine with open carb & 3cc increase - big deal. We didn't get that, we got something else.

In the immortal words of Blind Willie, you don't always get what you want....The difficult bit here is identifying whose barrow was being pushed out - and what they hoped to gain. Besides of course a monumental fuckup in the rulebook...

[speedpro]

Lets say a 100lc 2T could make 30hp reliably and a 110lc 2T could make 10% more or 33hp.

I think 30hp is a very usable amount and if all the scaremongering was on the money then currently, right now, bucket racing would be dominated by 100lc 2T buckets.

It isn't.

[kel]

Lets say a 100lc 2T could make 30hp reliably and a 110lc 2T could make 10% more or 33hp.

I think 30hp is a very usable amount and if all the scaremongering was on the money then currently, right now, bucket racing would be dominated by 100lc 2T buckets.

It isn't.

You are totally right, buckets is dominated by a Derbi 80. Why would anyone even think twice about going to 110cc.
Nothing to see here move along :rolleyes:

[speedpro]

The last couple of "Auckland" meetings have been dominated by a 100cc aircooled 2T. The 80cc is lurking round. Neither bike is making astounding hp, certainly nothing like theoretically they could. Actually the meetings have been dominated by Dave and it hardly matters which bike he is on. The 80 is ridden by Nathaniel. Both riders are significant when it comes to getting round the track(s) quickly, bit like the hillbilly from Palmy on that 4T thingy. These 2Ts aren't that astounding. Blair, recently promoted from B-grade on his stockish FXR, was well on the pace.

Of course someone will build a real screamer 109cc watercooled bucket that blows the competition away with some scrawny teenage sensation riding it. This will of course prove all the doomsday experts correct. The same bike at 105cc would likely have a very similar effect but of course that doesn't prove anything.

I'm gonna sit back and watch nothing change except the cost of building an extra oversize MB100.

[TZ350]

I'm gonna sit back and watch nothing change except the cost of building an extra oversize MB100.

314302 Athena MB110 $184.86 Euro

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/kit-high-driving-for-motor-bike-of-50-has-125cc-2-times/2222-product-2222.html

314300 Parmakit MB110

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/kit-high-driving-for-motor-bike-of-50-has-125cc-2-times/9424-kit-110cc-57mm-parmakit-motor-bike-honda-mb-80-mt-80-mtx-80-air-cooling.html

314301 Athena MBX110

http://www.rrd-preparation.com/en/kit-high-driving-for-motor-bike-of-50-has-125cc-2-times/2224-kit-110cc-55mm-athena-racing-motor-bike-honda-mbx-80-mtx-r-80-nsr-liquid-80-r-cooling.html

[F5 Dave]

What does it say on the side of that box?

[jasonu]

Risking asking a stupid question but is a 125cc water cooled 2 stroke with a no bigger than 24mm carb legal in F4 per the new rules?

[jasonu]

What does it say on the side of that box?

But there is no mention in the rules of passion having to be non competition based...

[richban]

110cc is all very well and good but remember its all about a maximum re bore on a 100cc cylinder, it is the maximum capacity you are allowed to re bore to, its not a licence to buy a 110cc after market water cooled cylinder.

My take on it is that its a re bore allowance not a new cylinder allowance. If you have 110cc and you did not get it by re-boring your old cylinder then under the current rules I think you would be illegal.

This rule then makes all 2 strokes with after market cylinders illegal then. Even going from a 50cc to and 80cc. As the cylinder was not rebored then hence illegal. Or does it? What happens when you make an engine from scratch from none competition parts that will never be rebored but is under 110cc. Contradiction in the rules. The rebore wording is silly. It should read engine cylinder capacity no larger than blah blah.

So I have already ordered my AM6 bottom end and 110 cylinder that will come in a plain brown cardboard box that does not say racing on the side. And my 32mm PWK that I will choke down to 24mm at some point. Not really! But you know. Engines will be build, they will blow up and some will keep going then someone will win the GP. Do I give a shit. Noooooooooo.

[husaberg]

This rule then makes all 2 strokes with after market cylinders illegal then. Even going from a 50cc to and 80cc. As the cylinder was not rebored then hence illegal. Or does it? What happens when you make an engine from scratch from none competition parts that will never be rebored but is under 110cc. Contradiction in the rules. The rebore wording is silly. It should read engine cylinder capacity no larger than blah blah.

So I have already ordered my AM6 bottom end and 110 cylinder that will come in a plain brown cardboard box that does not say racing on the side. And my 32mm PWK that I will choke down to 24mm at some point. Not really! But you know. Engines will be build, they will blow up and some will keep going then someone will win the GP. Do I give a shit. Noooooooooo.

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

[richban]

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

Well I do have a couple of spare NSR150 barrels. Or was it 105. Yeah thats right 105.

[husaberg]

Well I do have a couple of spare NSR150 barrels. Or was it 105. Yeah thats right 105.

I think I am dyslexic too so I see 42mm carbs are now allowed.

[Yow Ling]

Set up for Mike.............. set up for Mike..............

Sometimes it best to let it slide

[Bert]

Sometimes it best to let it slide


I thought it was a re bore allowance not a de stroke allowance.
But you have got me thinking now ..... :scratch:.... your idea has got me seriously thinking about abandoning the 125cc RGV air cooled project and using the bits to make a water cooled NSR/GP110 with a plenum and fuel injection to get around the 24mm carb restriction.

If destroking a 125 to 110 is allowed under the new rules then I have a good 54mm NSR250 cylinder and with a de stroke of the GP crank by 2mm I could have a 109.9 cc engine with the same bore stroke ratio as the old Suzuki GP125.

A de stroke should be easy as we routinely replace the 19mm Suzuki big end pin with a 22mm Yamaha one. So offsetting it 1mm would not be too hard.

110cc = 54mm bore and 48mm stroke. (with same bore stroke ratio as the 125 Suzuki GP's 56x50)
110cc = 56mm bore and 44mm stroke

So the big question is, would an engine with a 125 cylinder that has been de stroked so its 110cc be legal??? thoughts please.

So I don't pollute the ESE thread...

Rob I'm not having a dig at you (or Scott): the rule is so bloody loose that you are both (in my reading) well within your rights to do just as you are proposing.

So my reading and discussion about this rule change was all about enabling those with engines on the last rebore enable more options. Rather than costly destroking.
So... Pandora's box has been opened.
Well it still amazes me why there was so much loopla about MX80s/85s (which there must be 1000s siting in shed doing nothing) yet the box was opened up for a few 30 year old engines or some very hard to get modern watercooled engines (ok I've got one of these..)...
And due to the writers/editors inability to write a clear and precise rule has opened the box for further interpretation to the point where bigger CC will be the only resulting endpoint.
This is no different to the 156/8 cc fourstroke. No one cares for rebores. They will just bore it out to the maximum (and resleeve when required)...
:wait::wait::wait::wait::wait:

I believe that we won't see any significant advantage gained by the small increase. Costs aren't going to go down. And really it only helps a few (if the rule was past a decade ago) it might have been a really good compromise to the introduction of the 150cc... But now most of the old engines have been long since shoved under benches and/or forgone...

[husaberg]

So I don't pollute the ESE thread...

Rob I'm not having a dig at you (or Scott): the rule is so bloody loose that you are both (in my reading) well within your rights to do just as you are proposing.

So my reading and discussion about this rule change was all about enabling those with engines on the last rebore enable more options. Rather than costly destroking.
So... Pandora's box has been opened.
Well it still amazes me why there was so much loopla about MX80s/85s (which there must be 1000s siting in shed doing nothing) yet the box was opened up for a few 30 year old engines or some very hard to get modern watercooled engines (ok I've got one of these..)...
And due to the writers/editors inability to write a clear and precise rule has opened the box for further interpretation to the point where bigger CC will be the only resulting endpoint.
This is no different to the 156/8 cc fourstroke. No one cares for rebores. They will just bore it out to the maximum (and resleeve when required)...
:wait::wait::wait::wait::wait:

The rules as they are currently on the site are a mess.
moved to here.

i thought it was a re bore allowance not a de stroke allowance.
But you have got me thinking now ..... :scratch:.... Your idea has got me seriously thinking about abandoning the 125cc rgv air cooled project and using the bits to make a water cooled nsr/gp110 with the plenum and fuel injection setup for getting around the 24mm carb restriction.

If destroking a 125 to 110 is allowed under the new rules then i have a good 54mm nsr250 cylinder and with a de stroke of the gp crank by 2mm i could have a 109.9 cc engine with the same bore stroke ratio as the old suzuki gp125.

A de stroke should be easy as we routinely replace the 19mm suzuki big end pin with a 22mm yamaha one. So offsetting it 1mm would not be too hard.

110cc = 54mm bore and 48mm stroke. (with same bore stroke ratio as the 125 suzuki gp's 56x50)
110cc = 56mm bore and 44mm stroke

so the big question is, would an engine with a 125 cylinder that has been de stroked so its 110cc be legal??? Thoughts please.

yip....................
Just as debored 125 have been unquestionably legal for years Berts TZR, Nigels RG, Diesel pigs RG, Can't remember who had the other TZR in CHCH brendon?

[TZ350]

MX80s/85s (which there must be 1000s sitting in sheds doing nothing)

The new 2T engines to play with have to come from somewhere I guess. Initially I was against the MX80/85's but would now be happy to see them come in, preferably with no restrictions other than capacity so the 2T tuners can continue to have something affordable to work with. I guess Buckets is an evolving thing.

If we are going to tidy up the rules then maybe we could start by discussing what Bucket racing means. For me its tuning for some others I guess it is affordable riding, lots of different reasons Buckets is popular, maybe we should start by listing them.

[husaberg]

The new 2T engines to play with have to come from somewhere. Initially I was against the MX80/85's but would now be happy to see them come in, preferably with no restrictions other than capacity so the 2T tuners can continue to have something affordable to play with. I guess Buckets is an evolving thing.

But with the 110's cc 54mm stroke engines can be ran without destroking now. so that opens quite a few possibilities.
As an aside.
I brought a 80mx engine a while back. I had been looking for one for a while (2 years on trademe)
On striping it down I find it has a sleeve added......... where does that leave you.

[Bert]

The new 2T engines to play with have to come from somewhere. Initially I was against the MX80/85's but would now be happy to see them come in, preferably with no restrictions other than capacity so the 2T tuners can continue to have something affordable to work with. I guess Buckets is an evolving thing.

I almost agree 100% - but my gut tells me that some restrictions are needed to start with... Even if it was to cool down the masses...
It maybe as simple as what's been suggested previously. Pipe dia, Stock CDI and carb.
Other than that go for gold.
Call it moto85 as a subset if people are worried..
Reality is someone has to build it and be able to race it to it's full potential...


But with the 110's cc 54mm stroke engines can be ran without destroking now. so that opens quite a few possibilities.
As an aside.
I brought a 80mx engine a while back. I had been looking for one for a while (2 years on trademe)
On striping it down I find it has a sleeve added......... where does that leave you.

How hard were you looking?? Go talk to any wrecker and get him to call when one blows up...

[husaberg]

How hard were you looking?? Go talk to any wrecker and get him to call when one blows up...
Saved search on trademe emailed everyday
Contrast that with I have brought 3 FZR250 engines of an average of $20 each
Pretty sure this island has f-all (if any) bike wreckers left.
if there was a wrecker left in CHCH that would be a 700km+ round trip.

[Kickaha]

Pretty sure this island has f-all (if any) bike wreckers left.
if there was a wrecker left in CHCH that would be a 700km+ round trip.
Think there's one in Invercargill, that will be even further

[Yow Ling]

Saved search on trademe emailed everyday
Contrast that with I have brought 3 FZR250 engines of an average of $20 each
Pretty sure this island has f-all (if any) bike wreckers left.
if there was a wrecker left in CHCH that would be a 700km+ round trip.

There is one in Rangiora

[husaberg]

Saved search on trademe emailed everyday
Contrast that with I have brought 3 FZR250 engines of an average of $20 each
Pretty sure this island has f-all (if any) bike wreckers left.
if there was a wrecker left in CHCH that would be a 700km+ round trip.

Think there's one in Invercargill, that will be even further

There is one in Rangiora
Doesn't Kickaha live there?

[Grumph]

Think there's one in Invercargill, that will be even further

Gone....Owner/operator got old and sick.


There is one in Rangiora

I think everyone's old friend Pete Lambert is connected with that one.


Doesn't Kickaha live there?

You'd need to establish mutual respect to get cooperation I'm afraid...

Besides rangiora there seems to be a couple of back yard operations in ChCh - judging by the ads on tardme anyway. Plus of course KG's..
If one of them decides he's got enough stock to go fulltime in premises, I'm sure we'll hear about it.

[husaberg]

You'd need to establish mutual respect to get cooperation I'm afraid...

Besides rangiora there seems to be a couple of back yard operations in ChCh - judging by the ads on tardme anyway. Plus of course KG's..
If one of them decides he's got enough stock to go fulltime in premises, I'm sure we'll hear about it.

I was meaning that shouldn't Kicka have been aware of that?
TinTin who advertised on KB I have used a few times seems like a good guy but only street stuff its def a part time gig for him
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?member=163308
http://nzbikeparts.com/From Memory the Guys name was Simon Gooding

[TZ350]

TinTin who advertised on KB I have used a few times seems like a good guy

Yes, I have had good service from TinTin too, mostly NSR MC18 chassis stuff.

[husaberg]

Yes, I have had good service from TinTin too, mostly NSR MC18 chassis stuff.

Funny cause that where I got it from in the first place.........

[Kickaha]

I was meaning that shouldn't Kicka have been aware of that?
Forgot about him