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The Stranger
20th September 2005, 09:50
From talking to a few people on the rides I see a common issue which I think presents an oppertunity for some of the more experienced to assist those with less experience.

So to set the scene.
You are out on a KB ride and there are a bunch of experienced guys up the front having their fun. You are on your 250 young and bulletproof trying desperately to keep up. You know it is futile as LooseBruce overtakes you at 140kmh on one wheel and disappears around the next bend (had to keep it real aye). That next bend happens to be a right hander, and you just saw LB take it at 170+ so you can do it at 140 no doubt.
Or can you?
You enter the bend and realise that hey it is tighter than you thought and hell who put all that camber there. Hey shit look how close the edge of the seal is Yikes! you roll off the throttle hoping for enough decalleration at about the same time as you go tense bracing for the crash but you are still running wide. You keep an eye on that seal edge, after all that is the danger isn't it, that is what is going to trip you up.

I invite others to complete the storey, but lets keep at least a modicom of reality aye.

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 09:56
.....
I invite others to complete the storey, but lets keep at least a modicom of reality aye.
Instant thought is...."BRAKE!!!!"

Cibby
20th September 2005, 09:58
From talking to a few people on the rides I see a common issue which I think presents an oppertunity for some of the more experienced to assist those with less experience.

So to set the scene.
You are out on a KB ride and there are a bunch of experienced guys up the front having their fun. You are on your 250 young and bulletproof trying desperately to keep up. You know it is futile as LooseBruce overtakes you at 140kmh on one wheel and disappears around the next bend (had to keep it real aye). That next bend happens to be a right hander, and you just saw LB take it at 170+ so you can do it at 140 no doubt.
Or can you?
You enter the bend and realise that hey it is tighter than you thought and hell who put all that camber there. Hey shit look how close the edge of the seal is Yikes! you roll off the throttle hoping for enough decalleration at about the same time as you go tense bracing for the crash but you are still running wide. You keep an eye on that seal edge, after all that is the danger isn't it, that is what is going to trip you up.

I invite others to complete the storey, but lets keep at least a modicom of reality aye.

shit. been in that position on my first ride with the KB's.. 100% not cool..

Although i didnt die, jsut lucky that there wasnt a car coming..

Right Charlie
20th September 2005, 10:01
As per a Twist of the wrist...

You only have a certain amount of attention to spend.

Id be spending it all on holding on to my line, dont spend your attention thinking about possible gravel around the bend (who cars if its therte not much you can do about it now), dont spend it thinking about how easy it was for bruce, and dont think/look at the seal edge, if there is anything i learnt in my MX/MTB days if your worried about hitting somthing, and oyu keep looking at it, thwack, you'll probably hit it. look where you want to go, not where you dont...

bugjuice
20th September 2005, 10:03
Instant thought is...."BRAKE!!!!"
which is the worst thing to get too heavy on.. can brake moderately most of the time, but a wee too much can easily lock a wheel and/or change the dynamics of the bike, which can be unexpected and cause further issues to deal with. Most bikes will want to straighten up under heavy braking, so you have to force it back down while you're braking.. And just keep looking at where you want to go - don't look at where you don't want to go, cos you'll end up there

If you see anyone taking a corner at 170, then in theory, you can achieve a high speed thru there too. Very few reasons why not.

Best thing to do, regardless - lean. Lean like fuck. Lean until the pegs scrape the ground, and lean some more if you have to. Worst case scenario - a low side hurts a lot less than a high side or head on with a verge. Just lean the crap out of it, and you'll be surprised. If it's past that point, then just enjoy the ride.

Of course, the very worst thing to do, is think that you can keep up with boys on bigger bikes. If it's way beyond you to ride that fast, don't bloody do it. Ride for another day, don't make it the last. If they can do it, you will be able to too one day. Most didn't just jump on a bike and do it. Most have come from years and years of riding and crashing. Don't run before you can walk, cos it'll end in tears and high insurance premiums, and both will be yours.

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 10:06
shit. been in that position on my first ride with the KB's.. 100% not cool..

Although i didnt die, jsut lucky that there wasnt a car coming..
Glad you didn't leave us.....but he was talking about a righthander. Roadedge is the problem here

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 10:08
I know that. I was putting myself in a newbie's head for this excercise. Best thing to do is to lean heaps more AND roll on the throttle a little.

bugjuice
20th September 2005, 10:09
Glad you didn't leave us.....but he was talking about a righthander. Roadedge is the problem here
same applies to either tho. What would you rather have? Road edge on a right hander, or the possibility of oncoming traffic with a left hander?
personally, neither thanx.. rules apply for any corner, doesn't matter

Cibby
20th September 2005, 10:09
Glad you didn't leave us.....but he was talking about a righthander. Roadedge is the problem here
oh right..

sorry.. i'm skimming the reading part..

I think buggie is right. leaning to totally works..

Sniper
20th September 2005, 10:11
As buggy said, braking is a bad idea!. Rolling on more trottle is a bad idea. Leaning is a better thing to do. But prevention and brain power would be the best.

(Sorry, I know you said being a newbie)

Keystone19
20th September 2005, 10:12
You are out on a KB ride and there are a bunch of experienced guys up the front having their fun. You are on your 250 young and bulletproof trying desperately to keep up. You know it is futile as LooseBruce overtakes you at 140kmh on one wheel and disappears around the next bend (had to keep it real aye). That next bend happens to be a right hander, and you just saw LB take it at 170+ so you can do it at 140 no doubt.
Or can you?
You enter the bend and realise that hey it is tighter than you thought and hell who put all that camber there. Hey shit look how close the edge of the seal is Yikes! you roll off the throttle hoping for enough decalleration at about the same time as you go tense bracing for the crash but you are still running wide. You keep an eye on that seal edge, after all that is the danger isn't it, that is what is going to trip you up.

White Trash and I were discussing this after Phoenix tested the pond water on Saturday. Trouble is, one of the best ways to learn to ride a bike well is to ride with people who are better than you are and that will always mean pushing the boundaries a little harder. I guess the trick is in knowing when to back off - having no testosterone is helpful here ;) .

At the start of all the KB rides I have done the guys always remind us to 'ride our own ride' and that is always helpful. Trouble is, if you don't know you are too hot until it is too late that advice may not be helpful.

I think what would be helpful is if we see people pushing too hard for their abilities something needs to be said the next time we stop. This needs to come from one of the more experienced riders though.

Look forward to hearing people's suggestions...

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 10:15
I think what would be helpful is if we see people pushing too hard for their abilities something needs to be said the next time we stop. This needs to come from one of the more experienced riders though.

Look forward to hearing people's suggestions...
Yep. Also need to make an unscheduled stop for this reason. Waiting for next town/bar/whatever might be too late.

Cibby
20th September 2005, 10:16
As buggy said, braking is a bad idea!. Rolling on more trottle is a bad idea. Leaning is a better thing to do. But prevention and brain power would be the best.

(Sorry, I know you said being a newbie)

at the same time, i guess that encountering situations like these are part of learning right??? The very few rides i have been i, i have probably pushed myself far to hard to keep up with the boys, in hindsight this was stupid but all good.. and i learnt from it, i mean how many decent riders out there havent been in bad situations... it is great learning from the more experienced riders thou!!!

How much of it is chance?? i mean i have nearlly come off a few times but have managed to hold it, but then u get kids like that guy who put his bike in the ditch on the weekend.

{edit again}

Keystone is always right about everything including lack of testostorone. :) :rockon:

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 10:25
As buggy said, braking is a bad idea!. Rolling on more trottle is a bad idea. Leaning is a better thing to do. But prevention and brain power would be the best.

(Sorry, I know you said being a newbie)
Not sure that I agree with that. Positive power to the wheel creates a better 'bite' of the tyre, which in turn creates better control of the bike's tracking.

bugjuice
20th September 2005, 10:29
Not sure that I agree with that. Positive power to the wheel creates a better 'bite' of the tyre, which in turn creates better control of the bike's tracking.
it can (I've noticed this with the awesome power of the Avon Viper (A59 & A60) tyres I've been running), but I guess it would depend on what the tyre prefers to some degree, but more so, how far gone/hot you are already.. if you're already carrying too much speed into a corner, more power will most likely run you wider still.. But, I have taken corners too hard and just gassed it, and it pulls in.. I guess each corner has it's own merits to run to

Keystone19
20th September 2005, 10:30
throttling off and leaning in will decrease the radius of the turn, throttle on and sitting up will increase the radius of the turn...

Cibby
20th September 2005, 10:35
throttling off and leaning in will decrease the radius of the turn, throttle on and sitting up will increase the radius of the turn...

wow keystone.. your alwasy right.. and so smart.. haha ;) :devil2:

FROSTY
20th September 2005, 10:35
i agree with the comments about more experienced (arguably faster) riders suggestiing the less experienced guys tone it down.
Im at the point now I'm not happy to join in on KB group rides if Im in the middle.
If Im in the mood to go fast I'd rather bugger off in front or play tail end charlie.
Its not that I dont like being with you lot Its the senario outlined in the first post scares the shit outa me.

White trash
20th September 2005, 10:36
throttle on and sitting up will increase the radius of the turn...

Not if you've got 150 hp at the rear wrap and aren't afraid to use it.

Keystone19
20th September 2005, 10:37
Not if you've got 150 hp at the rear wrap and aren't afraid to use it.


:rofl: :rofl:


not yet...

WRT
20th September 2005, 10:38
Gas off and lean in can overload the front, cause a wash out or run wide. As per A Twist of the Wrist, "gentle" roll on of the gas is supposedly the correct solution. 40% weight on the front wheel, 60% on the back is the ideal.

Couple of other points from personal experience - neutral throttle and slight rear brake can help "settle" the bike deeper into the turn - have used this in several scenarios myself.

And further to the Twist of the Wrist theory of putting ON throttle rather than backing off - anyone noticed that if you gas it hard coming out of the corner, you can hoist the front off the deck and yet the bike still turns the corner? This would seem to prove the point - even with the front off the deck, you wont run wide (unless you were REALLY badly off line), the lean combined with raising the front does pull you round.

WRT
20th September 2005, 10:41
Not if you've got 150 hp at the rear wrap and aren't afraid to use it.

Another point they raise in ATOTW . . . havent had the balls to do it as a result of going in too "hot" tho . . . for me its more a pre-planned stunt than a survival respone . . .

N4CR
20th September 2005, 10:43
Not sure that I agree with that. Positive power to the wheel creates a better 'bite' of the tyre, which in turn creates better control of the bike's tracking.

Second to that - works well. Most racers do that if you listen. Also a great way to get out of OFC's when you aren't already doing that :sweatdrop .

This seems to be another possible 'ricksta' thread again so I think we should stop being negative people in public so to speak. Mabey someone can just have a quiet chat to them rather than doing this on the forums.

I have nothing against newbie advice but at times it seems like people are having a go at them - there are plenty of survival threads to search/read and in the end they can probably get a decent idea of what went wrong by themselves by reading up and analysing the situation with a little personal help, but not a thread....

The Stranger
20th September 2005, 10:43
From talking to a few people on the rides I see a common issue which I think presents an oppertunity for some of the more experienced to assist those with less experience.

So to set the scene.
You are out on a KB ride and there are a bunch of experienced guys up the front having their fun. You are on your 250 young and bulletproof trying desperately to keep up. You know it is futile as LooseBruce overtakes you at 140kmh on one wheel and disappears around the next bend (had to keep it real aye). That next bend happens to be a right hander, and you just saw LB take it at 170+ so you can do it at 140 no doubt.
Or can you?
You enter the bend and realise that hey it is tighter than you thought and hell who put all that camber there. Hey shit look how close the edge of the seal is Yikes! you roll off the throttle hoping for enough decalleration at about the same time as you go tense bracing for the crash but you are still running wide. You keep an eye on that seal edge, after all that is the danger isn't it, that is what is going to trip you up.

I invite others to complete the storey, but lets keep at least a modicom of reality aye.

The storey continues.

First a declaration. I am NOT an experienced rider.

What can you do?
You are thinking you are pretty well farkd.

But there actually are a lot of options available to you right now.

First off make a decision not to crash, but do it quickly. Sounds simple, but if you accept that you are going to crash, guess what, you will. If you make the conscious decision to NOT crash something else will happen, you will relax. When you are tense your ability to act and react is dulled. You may know what you should be doing but you are too tense to actually take the action.

Next tear you eyes away from that seal edge. It will still be there no matter if you look at it or not, focus on the vanising point of the road i.e. the point where the 2 road edges meet, not where you would otherwise vanish.

If you are early enough in the corner when you realise your error then trail brake, but for my storey you are probably too late for that.

Take control of your handlebars with ONE hand only. Use the inside hand only for all stearing inputs. Don't remove your other hand, but use only your right hand for stearing inputs so as you are not fighting you left hand.

Apply more counterstear pressure with your right hand.

Lean your weight harder to the inside of the bend, In the case of a heavy bike like the Blackbird you may have to pull the bike down to get it lower.

The last bit of advice that I can think of is to get back on the throttle. No don't open it up, but just hold your speed. As you corner if your throttle is constant you actually loose speed. Apply enough throttle to ride around the corner.

N4CR
20th September 2005, 10:45
And further to the Twist of the Wrist theory of putting ON throttle rather than backing off - anyone noticed that if you gas it hard coming out of the corner, you can hoist the front off the deck and yet the bike still turns the corner? This would seem to prove the point - even with the front off the deck, you wont run wide (unless you were REALLY badly off line), the lean combined with raising the front does pull you round.

Like in that RSV promo video... the guy practically wheelies on exit while it is still leaning? Thats crazy!

MSTRS
20th September 2005, 10:46
Lots of good stuff so far. There are also lots of other factors that come into play in the scenario. Actual speed, road surface, camber, familiarity with the road section, tyre type, bike size/weight/power, wind direction etc. This is all too much for a newbie to assimilate, so they have no doubt gone bush by now.

The Stranger
20th September 2005, 10:56
it can (I've noticed this with the awesome power of the Avon Viper (A59 & A60) tyres I've been running), but I guess it would depend on what the tyre prefers to some degree, but more so, how far gone/hot you are already.. if you're already carrying too much speed into a corner, more power will most likely run you wider still.. But, I have taken corners too hard and just gassed it, and it pulls in.. I guess each corner has it's own merits to run to

I got to agree with applying the throttle.
But don't take our word for it, go and try it.
I NEVER coast a corner. Trail brake in, lite throttle through the corner, gently open it out.

The important thing here is to take all the points from here out and try them one at a time bit by bit in a SAFE situation. DON'T wait till you need it to learn if it works or not.

WRT
20th September 2005, 11:03
Tristank - yup - just like that . . . or any motogp race you watch ;)

And CaN - fully agree, coasting a corner just feels WRONG . . . and it is very important to get your confidence up in a safe situation, can save a panic attack at the wrong moment.

Avignon
20th September 2005, 11:28
I'd recommend the 'lean it over' school. Lean it over, get off the side and push your knee towards the tarmac. Its surprising how much you can lean and how fast you can corner especially on modern tyres. However, id recommend riding with more caution, espcially considering alot of our roads are crap/off camber etc. Kenny Robert Snr, used to say slow in fast out, with regards to cornering. Then again he had a GP bike with a fair bit of acceleration and you've got a 250, wise advice none the less. :banana:

As for the bit of throttle, yes, a little throttle or constant throttle will settle the bike through a corner, where a closed throttle may push the front. If your a riding god (unlike me), give it a big handful of throttle and back it in - slide the rear to steer around the corner, keep it pinned, wheelslide laying a fat darkie on exit and lift it into a monster wheelie, sitting on your handlebars as you do it. On the way home dont forget to post you resigned HRC/Yamaha contract for next seasons moto-gp.

Ixion
20th September 2005, 12:40
I got to agree with applying the throttle.
But don't take our word for it, go and try it.
I NEVER coast a corner. Trail brake in, lite throttle throught the corner, gently open it out.

The important thing here is to take all the points from here out and try them one at a time bit by bit in a SAFE situation. DON'T wait till you need it to learn if it works or not.

Ditto. Feather the rear brake in, steady throttle through, just enough to hold speed, and rollon out.

But thing is , when it goes lavender, its all down to instinct and auto response. And for a new rider , those may be the wrong responses.

Particularly if the new rider has some years of experience driving a cage before learning to ride a bike. Which I think is one of the most dangerous scenarios out. Because in a cage, most of the time (not all) , the best thing to do when you're in trouble is brake. Even in a corner. In general, on a bike its the worst thing you can do , initially at any rate. As folks have said, countersteer , lean, hold the throttle on. But doing that instinctively , when you've only got a second to work it all out, that's what only experience brings.

Not going to comment on the other aspect, think everyone kbnows where I stand on that.

The Stranger
20th September 2005, 12:50
in a similar situation in a cage I would use the accelerator, for 2 reasons.

You are probably there because of understeer. A bit of accelerator will lift weight from the front wheels and allow them to track more accurately and if space permits a bit more will push the arse around and shift understeer to oversteer, which I find way less disconcerting.

Um that said I only drive rear wheel drive vehicles.

Motu
20th September 2005, 12:58
In this little scenario you've realised you've gone in too deep,you're off the throttle and pushing the front like mad to the outside,you know if you lean anymore you'll go down.What you need to do is get as far forward as you can,tiz a pity you are on a sportsbike,but you need to be on the gas cap,then get on the gas,just a tad,but it will stop that front end pushing.If all is lost lay it down before you get to things like ditches,fences etc,you can stop a lot quicker by yourself than if you are connected to a motorcycle with a lot of inertia.

Biff
20th September 2005, 13:22
I was taught never to roll off the throttle if you're mid corner and the corner is tighter than anticipated. My instructor (class 1 UK bikey cop instructor) told me to keep the throttle constant, or even roll it on slightly, and counter steer, harder, and harder. If you suddenly lean more this may tend to imbalance the bike, so try pushing down on the inside peg, and drop your shoulders in. Look where you want to go, not where you don't (target fixation). Drag the back brake too, as in ever so slightly applying it. But never the front, or hard on the rear, as the bike will simply stand up if you do.

Don't ever give up trying until the game is over.

Phenoix
20th September 2005, 13:29
All good advice.
Im listening to it all for next time.

oldrider
20th September 2005, 13:49
You know when you get it right it feels fantastic. You also know when you get it wrong, you meet a lot of nice medical people and have a lot of time to reflect. Enjoy the good ones of each. Cheers John.

The Stranger
20th September 2005, 20:42
All good advice.
Im listening to it all for next time.

How are you anyway, and how is the bike?

This was not aimed at you specifically Phenoix.
It happens to a everyone sometime and can be pretty freaky.

justsomeguy
20th September 2005, 20:55
How are you anyway, and how is the bike?

This was not aimed at you specifically Phenoix.
It happens to a everyone sometime and can be pretty freaky.

You sure about that?? keeps happening to me all the time..... oh if only I didn't have dyslexia and alzheimers :thud:

and :done: for the info in this thread :clap:

slob
20th September 2005, 21:28
Slightly OT, but I once found myself in a situation where I was negociating a 25km corner going flat out on a 50cc scooter. I leaned it as far as I could but eventually the exhaust hit the deck and lifted the rear wheel clear off the road. I made it round the corner although I was rolling behind the spinning scooter..:scooter:

Motu
20th September 2005, 21:47
Used to ride pillion with a guy who rode like that - he'd come into the corner too fast,going wide,time to get off you'd think....then he'd slam it onto the inside peg (we're talking early 70s Triumph) lift the rear wheel off the deck,the bike would pivot around to point to the exit...then he'd pick it up and blast out of the corner.We also used to scrape the pegs right,left and right just doing a passing manoeuvre....I learnt to be a relaxed pillion....

madboy
20th September 2005, 21:51
How about scenario two:

Loosebruce pops a mono past you at 140+, over the brow and into the left, pops the front down just as you come over the brow to see him disappearing into the right hander at 170 on a really cool looking lean angle...

hey - if he can do it at 170 on his well set up Gixxer thou with $400 each semi-slick race tyres, I can surely do it at 140 on my thrashed 95,000k 1988 250cc with $150/pair tyres I scored off a mate, f***ed fork seals and a wonky rear shock... and then I come into the corner, oh dear it's off camber, the radius is closing...

... and I look up at the vanishing point to see a silver K3 Gixxer thou summersaulting through the wire fence followed by some mildly porky fella about fifteen feet in the air...

I know it's hypocritical of me to say, since I've followed the big boys into corners a lot faster than I would have had I been alone, blindly assuming that because they could, I could 10k slower.

But even the big boys have bad days... ride your own ride.

Ixion
20th September 2005, 21:59
Used to ride pillion with a guy who rode like that - he'd come into the corner too fast,going wide,time to get off you'd think....then he'd slam it onto the inside peg (we're talking early 70s Triumph) lift the rear wheel off the deck,the bike would pivot around to point to the exit...then he'd pick it up and blast out of the corner.We also used to scrape the pegs right,left and right just doing a passing manoeuvre....I learnt to be a relaxed pillion....

BUGGER. Wot did ya want to remind of that trick for. I always wanted to be able to do that. Almost got it right a few times, but on the silencer not the peg. Ended up with the bottom of the left hand silencer scraped away, never could get near it on the right. Bugger I'd forgotten about that. And now I dont suppose I'll ever learn to do it. Damn.

Right Charlie
20th September 2005, 22:09
This quote starts too seem appropriate

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough"-Mario Andretti

Stolen from Teflons Sig.

I always push the boundry a little more each time, Over time, what was scary (a 55kph Right hander) at 55kph, is now comfortable at 70kph. ONe day of course ill push the limit too far, but thats how you learn where it is.

This was my technique back in the days of XC MTB riding... though the potential for damage of course a lot less... :no:

That said you can still hurt yourself pretty bad coming off a MTB, local guy broke his neck at Woodhill coupla weeks back. Few months ago somone died it woodhill (wonder why they removed all of the structures over 1mr high?)

Macktheknife
20th September 2005, 22:13
All jokes etc to one side for a moment, try measuring yourself against a rider who is just a bit better than you are, this way you learn and live thru it. Trying to be Aaron Slight on your early runs is generally gonna bring you lotsa pain.

Motu
20th September 2005, 22:27
BUGGER. Wot did ya want to remind of that trick for. I always wanted to be able to do that. Almost got it right a few times, but on the silencer not the peg. Ended up with the bottom of the left hand silencer scraped away, never could get near it on the right. Bugger I'd forgotten about that. And now I dont suppose I'll ever learn to do it. Damn.

I've taken it right down to the pipes - and then lifted both wheels off the ground at the same time....aren't these young fullas lucky to be able to learn on bikes with ground clearance!

Gremlin
21st September 2005, 01:59
Interesting thread, been going through this over the last 2-3 months in my head and pm'ing tristank and aff-man. This is from a newbies point of view, and obviously not perfect yet.

Also, there have been threads about crashing and that you don't have to, to learn, but I have found that by crashing (not deliberately of course) and analysing the crash, I have learnt a lot more and understood a fair bit as well.

Both crashes so far have been country, me, nobody else and my fault. First was out of a reasonable - although pic shows it tightened on exit - corner, but my mind was thinking of which turn I had to take, too late I realised I was running way wide.

Second was right in front of aff-man (who was able to give heaps of advice and tips etc - thank you as well :niceone: ) and again my mind was elsewhere, thinking how good the guy in front was, his bike looked great through the corner etc FAAARRK I'm running wide. This time I was on the brakes again, but was able to pull the bike up and toppled over in the ditch. As he told me, instead of just tipping it in, I went straight ahead because I was braking.

I have also run wide a couple of times on clear road. Came in too hot (but now I know I wasn't, but at the time it felt bad) and braked a bit and ran wide into the oncoming (left hander).

Practice: corners you know, anywhere even as aff-man suggested, roundabouts. Come in wide, induce a panick (you are trying to override your automatic response, not the everyday response) and then tip it in. As your confidence grows you feel more comfortable tipping it in, knowing that you can do it (if you are in the middle of a corner, second-guessing is really not the best of ideas).

I have found that rolling off the throttle is the best way to break in the early stages of the corner, but NOT the middle. Gentle acceleration is best in the middle and late stages, and as CaN told me, it settles the bikes suspension and I tried it and it does work.

Obviously as I get better I will try using the back brake perhaps, but for a newbie, I reckon this is easy, good to practice and not too tricky to understand???

Yes/No?? I reckon confidence and practice practice are the main tricks to master. Obviously not riding someone's ride is smart, no two people are the same. And as someone said, they do get it wrong. :doctor:

XP@
21st September 2005, 09:51
deciding NOT TO CRASH is a good start.
Then look where you really want to go and invoke counter steering 101.

once you have survived you need to slow down for a minute, remove any brown deposits in your pants and decide to ride your own ride.

Your more experienced friends in front will probably be flying in to the distance but forget about them for now.
Compose yourself first.
The next bend you come across enter real slowly and try and get the corner right, then slowly up the ante until you are at a comfortable pace, don't go much faster than comfortable and don't try and catch up.

If you are following a rider who has just screwed up corner then give them a bit of space and don't pass them, if they need to stop then stop with them they will really appreciate it.

madboy
21st September 2005, 12:43
...This was my technique back in the days of XC MTB riding... though the potential for damage of course a lot less... :no:

That said you can still hurt yourself pretty bad coming off a MTB, local guy broke his neck at Woodhill coupla weeks back. Few months ago somone died it woodhill (wonder why they removed all of the structures over 1mr high?)I work in disability claims so I've seen the medical reports on the end results, and spoken to the survivors.

I get far more claims for MTBs than motorcycles, but in saying that MTBs are ridden by a higher % of the population. MTBs - it's just you and whatever you hit/slide down/get hit by with only a bit of lycra in between. And as you'll know, 70k+ is not unheard of on a MTB. At 70k into a tree, I'd prefer to be doing it in m/cycle gear thanks.

M/cycles most sensible people are geared up with kevlar and CE armour to protect between you and the other object/surface. Just that m/c are usually going much faster. Often MUCH faster.

Either way they're both a fairly dangerous activity. And that's why we love 'em!!

mstriumph
21st September 2005, 13:20
Cheers for the most interesting thread on the go at the moment - each post an addition to the overall mosaic of 'getting it right' ...... really useful stuff, so thanks!

bugjuice
21st September 2005, 13:22
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_0306_rss/
choice bike in the article too..

FROSTY
21st September 2005, 14:29
Thought provoking stuff isn't it? From a racers prospective I can practice and practice a series of corners-and still not get em right.
I've talked to experienced riders then followed them round the track at my pace watching their braking/turn in points . It has always helped me immensly.
But please note the important point---AT MY PACE------
They were prepared to slow down so I could learn the corner/corners
When Im learning a road or a bit of track I dont go out flat chat as fast as I can. I know darned well I will learn nothing.Ill pull my speed down to well inside my comfort zone.
The funny thing is I've seen guys (on the track) who were quite frankly slow BUT willing to learn beat guys who were heaps faster simply because the "slow" guys were open to being shown the track.

justsomeguy
21st September 2005, 17:51
Really great tips CaN. :done:

One thing I have a problem with is right hand corners and the fact that I happen to be naturally stupid and can never apply what I've been taught........ despite all the lectures on the proper lines and riding techniques.

One thing I've been advised to do is to apply some pressure with the inside edge of my right ankle and push into the bike making up for the lack of countersteering I can do with my right hand. I have found that this does stabilise the bike .... this really helps me feel more stable on corners.

Another thing that the guys at BRONZ kept repeating was to keep a constant speed through the corner.

Much easier said than done as shabby riders like me keep making slight adjustments rolling on and off the throttle and braking and accelerating- this is especially a problem on long sweepers (more on right hand ones) which 1) Screw up the line 2) Make the bike less stable as it changes line. 3) Takes my attention away from the vanising point as I concentrate on these adjustments........

What I find works for me now is to ride slow and only commit myself to what I can see - or read from the road signs (trees, electric pole wires, etc).

The biggest problems for newbies like me is believing you can actually tip it lower......:spudwhat:

SlowHand
21st September 2005, 17:58
pleeese dont go off the power lines - they can be very decieving sometimes. I have bugger all experience on bikes, but ive been caught out in cages, and thats how possum bournes co-driver Roger Freeth died I think. Powerlines went straight, the road didnt.

edit: Im sure you know not to fully commit, but i thought it deserved a mention either way

justsomeguy
21st September 2005, 18:02
pleeese dont go off the power lines - they can be very decieving sometimes. I have bugger all experience on bikes, but ive been caught out in cages, and thats how possum bournes co-driver Roger Freeth died I think. Powerlines went straight, the road didnt.

Oh my you are right!!!

- I also try to use the tree formations..... But about the lines I know they can go accross a farm but never conciously registered the fact.......:doh::stupid:

Cheers for the advice:yes:

justsomeguy
21st September 2005, 18:07
This reminds me of an I could be dead moment I had before.....

I was following the road which seemed to go straight ahead - was doing the usual $1.00+change ....... and continued on.... only to realise that the actual road dissappeared around a completely decieving corner (there was a building there) and the road which continued was actually an equally wide off road :gob:...... meaning I shot accross a main road completely blind and only realised it as I was crossing it :no: - luckily there was no traffic at that point

FROSTY
21st September 2005, 18:10
I'd suggest JSG that part of your particular problem is you think TOO MUCH
you are thinking about the gravel ,the car coming over the brow of the hill
What if what id what if ohhh gosh she might....... Not a bad thing normally but for you at the moment its making your riding errattic.
If you're so worried ya feel the need to stand up mid corner then SLOW DOWN to a speed ya dont feel that need.
If you have overthought or underconfidenced a corner and done it in a series of wobbly bites then if youre on ya own go back and ride that corner -oir series of corners again. better still go back and stop--think out what you did and what you should have done and then try again.
Matey I've been riding for longer than you've been alive_I'm a reasonably fast rider -I still fuck up -for that matter if every fast rider on here is totally honest--and most of em usually are -they have all done dumb stuff
I think the difference is When I fuck up I have the experience to make it look like it was deliberate -or I just plumb say--Ohh shit I fucked up -I'll do it diffferent next time.
JSG am I having a go at ya--FUCKEN OATS I am
Why?
Ya remind me of a bloke I admired a hell of a lot--Roger Freeth
couldnt ride for shit -Knew it and set out to be one of the best friggen bike racers in New Zealand He did it as many from my generation will attest to.
he did it by having a positive attitude to tuition and advise from more experienced guys. He practiced and wiped the smirks off a shit load of guys faces in doing it.

SPman
21st September 2005, 20:29
If you're going into a corner too hot, and you aren't dragging the pegs and have half decent tyres, lean the f**kin bike some more and give it more throttle! It works!(myself and several newbies!) Spear off the corner or , possibly lowside , but probably get around the corner! If you hit the brakes or try and slow down, chances are, you will stand the bike up, or increase your turning radius, and its, goodnight nurse![eg - Ducati 996 following Sam, outside Kopu!]
Most bikes have got more in them, than the average rider - so - bury your survival instincts, dont think too much, have a hardwired "fuck me" plan and just do it, if it all looks like turning to shit!
And, JSG, heard of slow in, fast out! If you aren't sure of a corner, theres no shame in backing right off, until you see which way it goes, then choosing your line and powering through! Better than coming in blind and hot and erratic!
Its a road - no one to impress but yourself by your wise choices - everyone elses opinion means shit if you're dead or in hospital!

Phenoix
21st September 2005, 20:40
Im still liestening here.
I think you do learn from your crashes, cos it does take u down a peg or two :doobey: and you learn from your mistakes.
Im ok, but got a call from the docs telling me to come back in. They took another look at the Xrays and think i've now broken something.
So no riding for me for a while :(
That and I have no running bike or proper saftey now.
All I can say is, Invest in your safteys. Mine my be dead now, but Im now :D

Gremlin
21st September 2005, 21:13
Its not so much taking you down a peg or two, but its being able to prove what others have said to you. Once you know exactly what will happen if you do x, then you are able to do what was advised, and once you have done that, you always use it and prevent more of the same, which is best really...

Although, after the two offs in 3 days, my next ride was really weird. Kept having visions of spearing of in a corner, running wide and flipping off the bike :crazy:

but yeah, its just time and if you are lucky, having the more experienced guys watch you and tell you your good/bad points.

eg, CaN said that if I used a bit of throttle in the middle and exit of a corner it would settle the suspension. Which it did. Obviously you can't be on the limit already tho...

Sensei
21st September 2005, 21:41
I always look for a way of riding out of trouble . Not into . If you ride Focused you'll be a better rider for it . If you ride on the road then you'll have to be more aware than on a Track . Fast riding isn't a Gift it comes with Decades of learning . Use your time wisely when out there as it may just save your life one day

Right Charlie
21st September 2005, 22:09
Over taking Today

Knew the road went up the hill, on the crest was a turn off to the right, past the turn off was a left hand sweeper.

I Decided to be a cheeky bugger and whip past the truck on the way up the hill, i knew id be able to snap back in by the time the turnoff was behind me.

Baaah, Braaaaah, Braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh (Thats 3 down changes)

Pull out, moving up behind him, strange.. OH SHIT car waiting to turn to the right over the centre lane a little bit.

Heres me bout 120k, by the drivers door of this truck, car where i was intending to cross back over the centre line.

Braking NOT an option.

CHanging back into my lane NOT an option.

By the luck of the gods there is some oncoming traffic so the guy waiting to turn right doesnt.

SO i buzz between him and 3 cars coming the other way.

Put the shits up me to no end.

Keystone19
21st September 2005, 22:10
Im ok, but got a call from the docs telling me to come back in. They took another look at the Xrays and think i've now broken something.
So no riding for me for a while :(

Hey Phoenix, really sorry to hear that mate. Take care of yourself and we'll see you back out there real soon.

Cheers
Jill

Gremlin
21st September 2005, 22:16
Stuff here...

Pull out, moving up behind him, strange.. OH SHIT car waiting to turn to the right over the centre lane a little bit.

Heres me bout 120k, by the drivers door of this truck, car where i was intending to cross back over the centre line.

Stuff here as well...
Well, lets assess...

You overtook on a blind rise (assuming because you couldn't see the car until you came over the rise) and you assumed the state of the road... tsk tsk.

Won't jump all over you like a kangaroo, but I hope you aren't going to do that again??

Right Charlie
21st September 2005, 22:19
Well, lets assess...

You overtook on a blind rise (assuming because you couldn't see the car until you came over the rise) and you assumed the state of the road... tsk tsk.

Won't jump all over you like a kangaroo, but I hope you aren't going to do that again??


Was it Exciting? hell yeah
Did i get a buzz from the near Death? Hell yeah
Did i scare the shit out of my mate following? Think So
Will i do it again? ummm... nah sheel be right mate.

This bit of road for those familier,

Coatsville highway, heading up it, after youve come out of river head and gone over the bridge, this was on the bit of road after the big right hander.

SPman
22nd September 2005, 10:55
Some good tips here as well
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_0304_rss/
http://www.sportrider.com/ride/RSS/146_0102_rss/

mikey
22nd September 2005, 15:08
when im hot,











i go surfing.

Phenoix
22nd September 2005, 18:29
Hey Phoenix, really sorry to hear that mate. Take care of yourself and we'll see you back out there real soon.

Cheers
Jill

Well I now have a cast. Boss wasnt impressed. 6 Weeks
Not able to store my bike at Kittyhawks place now, So looks like its store outside now at my place.
Probably get it back this weekend.
SO Im stuck to driving a cage round :( Tho its going to coniced with be being able to afford to fix the bike and new safteys

justsomeguy
22nd September 2005, 18:35
Well I now have a cast. Boss wasnt impressed. 6 Weeks
Not able to store my bike at Kittyhawks place now, So looks like its store outside now at my place.
Probably get it back this weekend.
SO Im stuck to driving a cage round :( Tho its going to coniced with be being able to afford to fix the bike and new safteys

Hey mate :)

Anything you walk away from is all good.

Also if I remember correctly you got a company cage too eh?? It's great to have other means of transport.

Look forward to catching up with you on some rides when you're ready :niceone:

2_SL0
23rd September 2005, 12:33
Im far from wise on this situation. My own thoughts and experiences are when going into a corner if I suddenly get the feeling Im going in to hot, I will brake hard into the corner leaving it very late and then drop the bike in late. Proberly not the best description, but it means braking right up to the apex and then dropping in. As for being in mid corner and realising Im going to fast. If Im calm
and concentrating I will lean more, look where I wanna go and smoothly apply gas. Telling a newbie to apply rear brake, move his weight etc just wont work. Its a split second moment. It is very hard to learn not to grab a big handful of brake. I personally feel you will learn this lesson either the hard painful way (land on your arse) or the scary way you come out the corner. (But a new shade of white)
I can still remember my last scary moment. I will freely admit it all went out the window for a split second and I reached for the brake. Its ingrained into us, its very hard to break. As a newb, you just need to try and lean more to begin with and DONT touch the brake.

The Stranger
23rd September 2005, 12:43
I will freely admit it all went out the window for a split second and I reached for the brake. Its ingrained into us, its very hard to break. As a newb, you just need to try and lean more to begin with and DONT touch the brake.

Yeah you are quite right, it is hard to condition yourself not to just go for the brake.

There are 2 important things there though.
1) Knowing what to do.
2) Conditioning

If you haven't got number 1 you may as well kiss it all good bye and as for number 2 if you always ride the way you should then it becomes an automatic reaction. ie if you always countersteer even when you don't need to, in an emergency you will probably countersteer.

SlowHand
23rd September 2005, 13:33
Quite often in a cage I come off the gas or go for the brakes when not thinking. Then a fraction after that, I hit the gas and try and pull my ass back in line. Im never fully going for it on the road, so I have that little in reserve. Would this work on a bike? say ur going in a little too hot, not holy shit, im gona die. I dont want to experiment yet.

XP@
23rd September 2005, 14:15
Quite often in a cage I come off the gas or go for the brakes when not thinking. Then a fraction after that, I hit the gas and try and pull my ass back in line. Im never fully going for it on the road, so I have that little in reserve. Would this work on a bike? say ur going in a little too hot, not holy shit, im gona die. I dont want to experiment yet.
Not advisable...
Coming off the gas will de-stabilise the bike
Hitting the brakes could cause you to a sudden lack of traction causing one or both wheels to slide out from under you. (Low side crash)
Gassing it may cause a gain in traction. (high side crash (painful))

Would your technique work in a car if you were on a gravel, ice or other slippy surface? nope, you would be spinning out of controll.

"Slow in, Fast out" works for both cars and bikes.

SlowHand
23rd September 2005, 14:40
Didnt quite say that right. I meant i come off the gas etc when not thinking, and then when my brain switches on I feed the gas in.

When I did my rally course last year, I hit a rut at about 120/130kmh in a mirage, the back came out, and I had to do a brake, gas, turn, brake, gas, turn thing so I could turn the corner, bring the back in line, and slow down for the corner. My heart was pounding afterwards and I was extremly lucky that it happened going up a hill, and the tires had more grip in them.

So my real question is, is there any room for mistakes and corrections on a bike when things are starting to heat up?

FROSTY
23rd September 2005, 16:02
From talking to a few people on the rides I see a common issue which I think presents an oppertunity for some of the more experienced to assist those with less experience.

So to set the scene.
You are out on a KB ride and there are a bunch of experienced guys up the front having their fun. You are on your 250 young and bulletproof trying desperately to keep up. You know it is futile as LooseBruce overtakes you at 140kmh on one wheel and disappears around the next bend (had to keep it real aye). That next bend happens to be a right hander, and you just saw LB take it at 170+ so you can do it at 140 no doubt.
Or can you?
You enter the bend and realise that hey it is tighter than you thought and hell who put all that camber there. Hey shit look how close the edge of the seal is Yikes! you roll off the throttle hoping for enough decalleration at about the same time as you go tense bracing for the crash but you are still running wide. You keep an eye on that seal edge, after all that is the danger isn't it, that is what is going to trip you up.

I invite others to complete the storey, but lets keep at least a modicom of reality aye.
I keep rereading and rereading this thinking --well how WOULD I react not ego -well ya know the right answer in theory.
So I went out to find out on the great white whate (FJ1200)
First thing I realised is I have a fucken big wide chicken strip down my back.
The second thing was I tend to set myself up for worst case senario.
On a right hander I ease to the left as I'm approaching the corner and on a left hander im hogging the center lane.
So --Ive gone in too hot and yep its a decreasing radius corner-stantd the bike up for a moment and grab some brakes. In that 10m crossing to the oposite side of the lane Ive washed off 30km/h.
Then back on the power enough to load up the frame --and LEEAAAN --
In the case of the whale its--jump off the side of the bike using a block and tackle to pull it over in a corner
I tried to follow the exact senario CaM pictured and I just diddnt have the balls to do it

ZorsT
23rd September 2005, 16:37
The senario CaM put on the board happened to me a few days ago. Except Instead of trying to keep up with someone, I had decided to not slow down for a right hand corner.

As soon as I started leaning, I knew I was going too fast for my comfort. I remember seeing the edge of the road come closer and closer, it dropped about 3 inches to just grass. Thoughts like "fuck this" were flying through my mind.

As I was tensing up, I realised I was doing everything wrong.

Remembering what I had read here, and what I learnt at a recent course...
I flicked my head up. Instead of looking at the looming edge of death, I looked where I wanted to go.
I pushed with my right arm.

I made it out of the corner EASY.

The Stranger
23rd September 2005, 17:28
Man I doubt many of us could actually set it up. Your mind just wont let you do it. And if it did it would already be planning the escape whether or not you wanted it to.

It is the surprise that is the danger element.

thealmightytaco
27th September 2005, 09:48
All this sounds a good reason to go to a track open day, and try it away from armco.