Alternatives to petrol

[Edbear]

The drug/cancer thread is starting to discuss this issue so probably better to have its own thread.

With the advent of electric bikes and hybrid technology, maybe we can discuss the pros and cons of it.

While most development is centered on cars, there are several bike manufacturers building electric bikes now

One area I do like to see them in is trials. Traditionally the realm of the two -stroke engine, electric makes complete sense. Road bikes are a different case and needs much more battery life yet.

[Oakie]

Hydrogen. I saw on TV just a few nights ago that hydrogen fuelled cars are becoming available in the US and that initially, the hydrogen is free. Performance and 'tank' range is good with the only problem being a lack of fuel stations that sell hydrogen. Can't think why the petrol stations wouldn't sell an alternative to petrol! :) It'll come eventually though.

[Katman]

It's been well known for many years that oil companies have been buying up patents for alternative energy and hiding them away where they never see the light of day.

[Voltaire]

Oil and Car Company conspiracy theory enter stage left..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batter ies

[vtec]

Electric bikes are already awesome. Range isn't too bad. 160 km easy. More range than my UZ125.

Check out the Zero SR: http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/sr.php

Cons for me are largely the price, $20k+, and secondly the weight. 188kg. But for a commuter the weight wouldn't matter too much. Most bikes are similar weight. I just like lighter.

[Motu]

Can't think why the petrol stations wouldn't sell an alternative to petrol!

They've been there, done that - and a lot still do LPG.

[Yow Ling]

Methane Hydrates, should put off the electric cars for a hundred years or so

[jasonu]

It's been believed for many years by conspiracy theorists and tin foil hat wearers that oil companies have been buying up patents for alternative energy and hiding them away where they never see the light of day.

Fixed it for ya.:2thumbsup

[Katman]

Fixed it for ya.:2thumbsup

Knock yourself out.

http://www.theorionproject.org/en/suppressed.html

http://www.examiner.com/article/oil-company-ownership-of-battery-patents-threatens-electric-car-production

[Edbear]

I think it will be gradual. While you can get enough range from batteries for some daily commuting they still take time to recharge. I have been serously considering the Outlander PHEV as it would save me about $500 per month in fuel based on my normal routine and still beat the Kizashi on a long drive by about 1,1/2lt per 100km.

And they are using LiFePO4 batteries I believe.

[Katman]

It has also been known for decades that the internal combustion engine is inherantly very thermally inefficient.

The oil companies are determined to ride the wave as far as they can though.

[Edbear]

I think it will be gradual. While you can get enough range from batteries for some daily commuting they still take time to recharge. I have been serously considering the Outlander PHEV as it would save me about $500 per month in fuel based on my normal routine and still beat the Kizashi on a long drive by about 1,1/2lt per 100km.

And they are using LiFePO4 batteries I believe.

[Edbear]

It has also been known for decades that the internal combustion engine is inherantly very thermally inefficient.

The oil companies are determined to ride the wave as far as they can though.

While oil is plentiful and cheap there's not a big incentive.

[Katman]

While oil is plentiful and cheap there's not a big incentive.

There's plenty of incentive - just not for the oil companies.

They are only interested in raping the Earth of any further oil deposits in order to make whatever money they can before their bubble bursts.

[Flip]

There's plenty of incentive - just not for the oil companies.

They are only interested in raping the Earth of any further oil deposits in order to make whatever money they can before their bubble bursts.

Tin foil hat wearing hippies have been saying for the last 40 years.

[Edbear]

There's plenty of incentive - just not for the oil companies.

They are only interested in raping the Earth of any further oil deposits in order to make whatever money they can before their bubble bursts.

Their bubble won't burst. Don't you think they are keeping a watch on developments? The changes will be publicly driven, i.e consumer demand. The oil companies have the wealth and ability to meet the demand and develop whatever facilities are required. While the US buyers continue to want huge V8 trucks and raw performance they will forestall investment in alternative fuels. Europe may get ahead of the game here as the cost of petrol and diesel is high enough to drive buyers towards the cheapest method to get around.

It appears that hybrids will be the next big thing until battery tech improves enough to match distance and recharging demands. Don't be fooled by thinking the car manufacturers are not agressively pursuing alternative motive power. They are.

[bogan]

A good one is walking, or pedaling...

Otherwise, electrics are viable for commuter stuff. Plenty of development going on with different types of batteries too. Currently the fastest fueling one is the tesla I think, which can just swap out the battery. But since battery tech is changing so rapidly, developing the large infrastructure required to support such initiatives is a risky proposition.

[Big Dog]

I think that the family commuter will switch first. For most a genuine 160km return trip is plenty for commuting.
I already own a different vehicle to commute than to carry my family around. So it seems logical that the first to change would be the commuter.
Trouble is chuck a few hills in and real return range is about 100, less in a headwind.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

Frankly if I lived close enough that i could definitely return trip current tech I would consider it so long as I was not close enough to cycle it.

The long charge time isn't an issue as long as it is less than the time between shifts.
It would be a drag on call though.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Edbear]

Frankly if I lived close enough that i could definitely return trip current tech I would consider it so long as I was not close enough to cycle it.

The long charge time isn't an issue as long as it is less than the time between shifts.
It would be a drag on call though.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I worked out that the PHEV would make it from Orewa to Panmure and return if I could plug it in at my daughter's place for an hour or so. Return trips to Albany would be no problem and all local running for the week would be on battery power.

[slofox]

I'd like a steam bike...:devil2:

Then we could get scalded to death as well as squashed, sliced, compressed or burnt to death in the petrol fire...:whistle:

[Katman]

Tin foil hat wearing hippies have been saying for the last 40 years.

Exactly.

Because that's exactly what's been going on for the last 40 years.

[Flip]

I'd like a steam bike...:devil2:

Then we could get scalded to death as well as squashed, sliced, compressed or burnt to death in the petrol fire...:whistle:

I would also. Probably put a small steam generator in a side car and use a small turbine.

[R650R]

Until we get some advanced form of safe closed loop nucluear power stations then electric vehicles will continue to be a false benefit to the environment.

In NZ only about 60% of our electricity os from clean sources eg hydro or wind power (but even wind power isn't clean as a power station must stay idling to balance the load).
The rest is from burning coal, oil and gas where a lot of the heat generated is wasted energy. Then more of that energy is lost through transmission lines to the smug consumer with their hybrid.

Petrol and diesel remains a well proven reliable secure store of energy.

Then with electrics there is the issue of disposing of old batteries and heavy mining operations for all the rare earth minerals needed for magnets and electronics etc....

What will be the health effects of being close to high voltage and high frequency electromagnetic fields long term in electric vehicles, will we be replacing one cancer cause with another???

[bogan]

Until we get some advanced form of safe closed loop nucluear power stations then electric vehicles will continue to be a false benefit to the environment.

In NZ only about 60% of our electricity os from clean sources eg hydro or wind power (but even wind power isn't clean as a power station must stay idling to balance the load).
The rest is from burning coal, oil and gas where a lot of the heat generated is wasted energy. Then more of that energy is lost through transmission lines to the smug consumer with their hybrid.

Petrol and diesel remains a well proven reliable secure store of energy.

Then with electrics there is the issue of disposing of old batteries and heavy mining operations for all the rare earth minerals needed for magnets and electronics etc....

What will be the health effects of being close to high voltage and high frequency electromagnetic fields long term in electric vehicles, will we be replacing one cancer cause with another???

A common misconception. Even fossil fuel generation grid electricity is more efficient to use in vehicles than petrol. Simple because there is not as much waste heat. In new zealdand transmission losses are greater due to our sparsity, and the inter-island link; then again, electrics often come with regen, so another boost to their efficiency as well.

It is hydrogen which is the inefficient one.

The electric feild strength generated by electric vehicles is actually very low too.

[ducatilover]

Bring back CNG
Our electrical facilities are not up to the standard we need for many electric vehicles, it will take a lot of time and money to make it good enough
And CNG is easy to get. There's fucking heaps of it.
Battery production is not very nice. Battery recycling is not very nice.
CNG can be fitted to your existing vehicle.
If you're fucking cool, you'll be rocking 13.5:1 comp ratio and making plenty of power.
CNG can be made a fun initiallism game.

[Big Dog]

I miss having a dual fuel falcon. Being able to drive to Auckland from New Plymouth on. $17 fill was dampened only by the difficulty buying a tank to drive home. That sucker could get through some 91 when you ran out!


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Edbear]

I miss having a dual fuel falcon. Being able to drive to Auckland from New Plymouth on. $17 fill was dampened only by the difficulty buying a tank to drive home. That sucker could get through some 91 when you ran out!


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.


CNG was a wasted opportunity! I had my 1980 Marina on it. Cost $7.00 to fill! The Marina had the later 1700 alloy head OHC engine and ran beautifully on the gas.

The issues for the fuel were power, range, weight, the high pressure cylinder and boot space. However these could be largely overcome with dedicated CNG vehicles and tuning.

Diesel engines ran fantastically on CNG because of the high compression and a couple of bus companies ran their buses on it. Much quieter and cleaner!

[nzspokes]

A good one is walking, or pedaling...

Otherwise, electrics are viable for commuter stuff. Plenty of development going on with different types of batteries too. Currently the fastest fueling one is the tesla I think, which can just swap out the battery. But since battery tech is changing so rapidly, developing the large infrastructure required to support such initiatives is a risky proposition.

There are some cool bicycle ones in the pipeline. Biggest trouble in NZ is finding people to service the main 2 systems. But this is being addressed.

Within the year I believe I will be commuting to work on one for my 27k trip.

[bogan]

There are some cool bicycle ones in the pipeline. Biggest trouble in NZ is finding people to service the main 2 systems. But this is being addressed.

Within the year I believe I will be commuting to work on one for my 27k trip.

I reckon road suitability for cycles is right up there for the biggest trouble. Normal pedly places can just service the serviceable parts on electric drive bikes, treat the rest as a black box, which it generally is anyway.

What is coming up though?

[TheDemonLord]

An electric car?

No.

An electric commuter vehicle?

Yes.

Until such time that an electric car can match my car for range AND refuel time, then it isn't a true alternative.

[The Reibz]

I've always thought of Diesel to be a good alternative to Petrol.
You don't even have to pay RUC if you have a sparky to install a switch for yah

[willytheekid]

Thorium!...what NZ & the rest of the world should be investing in.

http://www.ted.com/talks/kirk_sorensen_thorium_an_alternative_nuclear_fuel

Imagine the price of electricity if we had Thorium reactors...and thorium powered bikes!:drool:

[Naki Rat]

We bought a Nissan LEAF last July and have been very impressed with it. Sure the battery range is about 100km but that is more than enough to get the OH to work for two days running, and then we charge it either from our PV if sunny and convenient, or overnight if more practical.

Recharge costs about $4 based on retail power rates or a third of that if Meridian's miserly buy-back rate is applied to PV generated power that would otherwise be exported, so 4c/km or <1.5c/km with no engine or trans to maintain. As a comparison our 3.8L Commodore (trips and trailer 2nd vehicle) chews through 22-26c of petrol/km plus maintenance costs.

Battery technology is the single biggest barrier to EV uptake and presently this is being addressed by 'supporting' the km range by way of an ICE (i.e. hybrids). With virtually every major car manufacturer currently developing or releasing EVs or hybrids though it will only be a year or two before advances in technology make solely electric powered vehicles practical and commonplace. The demand for improvements to electricity storage is also strong in the micro-generation (PV, wind, hydro) industry and this and EV batteries are very much interlinked. We are proof of this as we effectively use the LEAF to squirrel away generation whenever practical.

Tesla is going from strength to strength and is leading the charge in terms of charging facility networks in north America, Europe and currently east coast Australia. Their battery swapping facilities are another angle on this and Tesla are also constructing a huge battery 'gigafactory' in Nevada (https://gigaom.com/2015/02/13/tesla-charges-ahead-at-the-grid-storage-market/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+earth2tech+%28Gigaom+News+-+Science+%26+Energy%29) in conjunction with Panasonic aimed primarily at storage of domestic and commercial scale PV and wind generation but of course will also have downstream benefits for EVs.

The idea that 'petrol stations' will remain to be the expected location for vehicles to 'refuel' is a a narrow view of the future IMO. With 50Kw fast chargers already able to replenish an EVs battery in 15-30 minutes the more practical location for such facilities would be at those places where people already spend that length of time such as shopping centres or eateries. A 'switched on' restaurant for example need only add the <$5 power cost to his meal/s and 'free' charging makes a good drawcard for EV drivers to his eatery.

Currently battery manufacture is reliant on precious minerals but even now Nissan is addressing this by offering a US$5,500 exchange system for LEAF batteries (in the US) that have lost sufficient storage capacity to maintain practical km range. While the 'used' battery is not 'fit for purpose' in terms of EV use but is more than sufficient for less demanding applications such as PV storage in domestic situations.

Other alternatives such as hydrogen, fuel cells, etc. seem to be coming a distant second to EVs with 'refueling' infrastructure being the primary difficulty it would seem. Obviously electricity distribution is already in place in most countries so it should just be a matter of hooking up charging units at appropriate locations, possibly supported by PV/wind/hydro powered installations in more remote places.

[nzspokes]

I reckon road suitability for cycles is right up there for the biggest trouble. Normal pedly places can just service the serviceable parts on electric drive bikes, treat the rest as a black box, which it generally is anyway.

What is coming up though?

In Aucks for my ride in it will be mostly cycle lane. So all good.

Yes and no to the service bit. The box as such will need to go to a service center. The manufacturers will require this.

No ground breaking advances more getting some standards in so we dont have everybody making different motor mounts etc.

[bogan]

In Aucks for my ride in it will be mostly cycle lane. So all good.

Yes and no to the service bit. The box as such will need to go to a service center. The manufacturers will require this.

No ground breaking advances more getting some standards in so we dont have everybody making different motor mounts etc.

Stink, I was hoping for a full electric drive, with pedal generator; none of this pedal assist malarkey.

[TheDemonLord]

The idea that 'petrol stations' will remain to be the expected location for vehicles to 'refuel' is a a narrow view of the future IMO. With 50Kw fast chargers already able to replenish an EVs battery in 15-30 minutes the more practical location for such facilities would be at those places where people already spend that length of time such as shopping centres or eateries. A 'switched on' restaurant for example need only add the <$5 power cost to his meal/s and 'free' charging makes a good drawcard for EV drivers to his eatery.

Thats all well and good if I want to spend 15-30 minutes at a location, but what if I don't? now the Electric vehicle is forcing me to change my travel habits, With a Petrol vehicle I can choose to spend 15-30 minutes or 5 minutes, How long I spend is determined only by me, not the vehicle I drive.

I am all for Electric Vehicles, but until they can do all the things my current car can do, then they are not an Electric Car.

[bogan]

I am all for Electric Vehicles, but until they can do all the things my current car can do, then they are not an Electric Tourer.

Learn to use your words.

And there is still the possibility of a physical battery swap for those willing to pay a little more to get super quick pit-stops.

[TheDemonLord]

Learn to use your words.

And there is still the possibility of a physical battery swap for those willing to pay a little more to get super quick pit-stops.

Words, Schmords - I am being lazy.

Why would I pay more for a convenience that currently I am able to enjoy at no extra charge (pun fully intended)?

[bogan]

Words, Schmords - I am being lazy.

Why would I pay more for a convenience that currently I am able to enjoy at no extra charge (pun fully intended)?

More than the guys who wait for their batts to charge, still a whole lot less than juiced dinosaurs.

[Naki Rat]

Thats all well and good if I want to spend 15-30 minutes at a location, but what if I don't? now the Electric vehicle is forcing me to change my travel habits, With a Petrol vehicle I can choose to spend 15-30 minutes or 5 minutes, How long I spend is determined only by me, not the vehicle I drive.

I am all for Electric Vehicles, but until they can do all the things my current car can do, then they are not an Electric Car.Recharging at your home or (probably) workplace will be the norm very early on in the uptake of EVs, with top ups at public facilities just adding extra range flexibility if required. It just takes a shift of mindset to think about recharging an EV in the same way as you do your cellphone or cordless power tools. Being tied to refills from petrol stations soon becomes as foreign to an EV owner as lugging extension cords around to run your electric drill probably does to you now.

There's also a very satisfying feeling in 'filling your tank' from a home socket, especially when that electricity is being generated from sunlight by your own PV :cool:

[Flip]

This my LPG V8 landrover.

On a fuel card I pay about $1/litre so its relatively low cost to drive around in.

Because its a Landrover it has a low enviromental footprint.

310561310562310563310564

[Big Dog]

CNG was a wasted opportunity! I had my 1980 Marina on it. Cost $7.00 to fill! The Marina had the later 1700 alloy head OHC engine and ran beautifully on the gas.

The issues for the fuel were power, range, weight, the high pressure cylinder and boot space. However these could be largely overcome with dedicated CNG vehicles and tuning.

Diesel engines ran fantastically on CNG because of the high compression and a couple of bus companies ran their buses on it. Much quieter and cleaner!

None of the trinity you malign are a problem in a 'coon!
I only had twin tanks, a friend had tri tanks. Both ex taxi. Both fitted out by ford pre delivery so also had manual ratio diffs, stiffer springs all round and better shocks.
His also had a 4 stage after maker trans but he only got the same mileage (he just got 1/3 more range) as me so meh.
I could still fit two adult people in the boot well enough room to sleep in there when parked with the boot up.
Or as car salesmen would put, seating for six and room for seven sets of golf clubs.
The tanks weren't any riskier than 70l of high octane so long as everything is properly maintained.

The mighty 4.1 pulled overloaded tandems many times.

Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

Recharging at your home or (probably) workplace will be the norm very early on in the uptake of EVs, with top ups at public facilities just adding extra range flexibility if required. It just takes a shift of mindset to think about recharging an EV in the same way as you do your cellphone or cordless power tools. Being tied to refills from petrol stations soon becomes as foreign to an EV owner as lugging extension cords around to run your electric drill probably does to you now.

There's also a very satisfying feeling in 'filling your tank' from a home socket, especially when that electricity is being generated from sunlight by your own PV :cool:

Not a great analogy.
Trademe is riddled with cordless tools that seemed like a good idea at the time but now battery maintenance requirements mean the tool is useless. Especially for the light user.

If it is doing any real work and I won't be using it every week I prefer cords or air. My only exception is my drill. Even then heavy duty goes to a corded drill.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[bogan]

Not a great analogy.
Trademe is riddled with cordless tools that seemed like a good idea at the time but now battery maintenance requirements mean the tool is useless. Especially for the light user.

If it is doing any real work and I won't be using it every week I prefer cords or air. My only exception is my drill. Even then heavy duty goes to a corded drill.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

Na that is a pretty good analogy, or do you think there will be no issues with cheap/shit batteries on EVs?

Cordless have caught up with corded drills in torque for all but the most wrist snappingest of jobs. You'd still use a corded for repeditive production jobs that are done many times per day though.

[Katman]

Could solar energy be utilised as an auxiliary recharge method?

[Big Dog]

Na that is a pretty good analogy, or do you think there will be no issues with cheap/shit batteries on EVs?

Cordless have caught up with corded drills in torque for all but the most wrist snappingest of jobs. You'd still use a corded for repeditive production jobs that are done many times per day though.

I was more thinking that an ev would likely have a battery tender type manager built in and be used just about daily if not a couple of times a week even by then lightest user where a cordless reciprocating saw might only come out a couple of times a year except for a professional or heavy DIY user.
Only the most foolish would buy $30000 worth of ev car just to use it twice a year.
Any benifit gained would be lost in degradation let alone charging cost.

Where it would be very easy to be tempted into buying tools that are often cheaper cordless these days without thought to the ongoing maintenance of the battery.
Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Edbear]

Once you factor in the total cost of the item over its projected life it gets trickier and not so rosy. $60k for a Mitsubishi PHEV as against say, $37k for a Foton Tunland turbo diesel means a lot of kilometers to make up if you can't do 95% of your driving on the battery.

The Book value of my 4 year old Kizashi has gone from the new price of $41k to about $15k which is a huge depreciation that is only worth it for a company car.
Overall you're better off if a private buyer to buy an ex Demo or up to two years old and a cheaper petrol vehicle.

Being a company, I would still like the PHEV as it would save that $500 per month for the driving I do.

[Edbear]

Could solar energy be utilised as an auxiliary recharge method?

Certainly could. In fact there are systems out there, mainly in boating so far, that have combined solar and wind power for running the batteries. Some manufacturers are using the latest solar panels which are thinner, lighter and flexible on vehicles making the roof a solar panel. Only viable on lightweight bicycle based at the moment but it's progressing.

http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quikes.co.nz%2Felf.html&h=7AQEif_ZA&enc=AZMKY80D2WFT0dreYIlLw1P8vkcpeWUc6AWA9n8OWaVB7N V8K4A6IziDOQAQkVfwhak&s=1

[Naki Rat]

Could solar energy be utilised as an auxiliary recharge method?Some models of Nissan LEAF have a small PV panel (about the size of a paperback book) on a rear panel that charges the 12V instrument system only. Bit of a gimic more than really useful.

The Li-Ion battery that powers the car is 24kWh, weighs about 300kg and stores electricity at 330V DC. Our PV installation is 6kW, about 40 square metres in area and if its generation was directed solely into the LEAF would take 4 - 5 hours at maximum performance (full sun) to charge up the car. So, until battery storage and charging technology improves along with major advances in PV efficiency the 'self charging' car scenario is not a goer.


Na that is a pretty good analogy, or do you think there will be no issues with cheap/shit batteries on EVs?
.....As the capacity of EV batteries is from 12kWh for the likes of an Outlander PHEV hybrid to 80kWh for the Tesla S, compared to 27 Wh for an 18V Hitachi power tool (so 450 - 3,000 times the capacity), the issue of safety for what is a very substantial amount of stored energy is crucial. The fossil fuel vehicle makers and safety watchdogs such as the US authorities are very unlikely to allow vehicles with dodgey batteries see the light of day, but I personally won't be considering purchasing any of the raft of EVs currently being designed and produced ex-China any time soon. Also there are safety margins designed into the very clever IT control systems in EVs as well as restrictions on charging systems that limit charge rates. The 50kW 'fast chargers' for example will only charge at that rate up to 80% and then slow charge to 'full' so that a potentially catastrophic overcharge cannot occur.

[ducatilover]

The LEAF is yuck to drive though. All mushy and turdy.
I'd rather save megabucks and buy a bike. And be cool. With a huge penis

[Big Dog]

The LEAF is yuck to drive though. All mushy and turdy.
I'd rather save megabucks and buy a bike. And be cool. With a huge penis

You should try that one day then.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[ducatilover]

You should try that one day then.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.


I've thought about it. It doesn't get any bigger though, no matter how many bikes I buy. Perhaps it's the choice in bikes?