This cunt got what he deserved!

[jasonu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVByrAm0bi8

[Edbear]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVByrAm0bi8

A bit hard to find sympathy for the "poor man". Especially when you get to read the full story, not just the media sensationalism.

[Katman]

Hey, if they're not shooting them in the back they're running them down from behind.

America sure is fucked up.

[TheDemonLord]

Hey, if they're not shooting them in the back they're running them down from behind.

America sure is fucked up.

Then don't run from the Cops

Especially don't run from Cops who have guns and are trigger happy.

I had a bit of sympathy for the guy who acceidentally got shot (instead of Tasered) and subsquently died - but again - don't run from the Police:

If you run, you are guilty of something
If you are guilty of something, then you are a criminal
If you are a criminal, then you are probably armed
If you are probably armed, then best to shoot first, ask questions later.

[oldrider]

Then don't run from the Cops

Especially don't run from Cops who have guns and are trigger happy.

I had a bit of sympathy for the guy who acceidentally got shot (instead of Tasered) and subsquently died - but again - don't run from the Police:

If you run, you are guilty of something
If you are guilty of something, then you are a criminal
If you are a criminal, then you are probably armed
If you are probably armed, then best to shoot first, ask questions later.

Have to agree with TDL - present guns expect guns - not too sure about dodgy old amateurs though FFS! :scratch:

[willytheekid]

Then don't run from the Cops

Especially don't run from Cops who have guns and are trigger happy.

If you run, you are guilty of something
.

but...but...What if im a Deaf Jogger?:blink:




ps...I actually laughed at the vid (I know...bad me!...but that was a nice hit!, first cop car was all..."hang back guys...he's got a gun!"...second cop car..."yeah...nahhh, Fuck that! and FUCK HIM!!" BOOM! - through! a brick wall...suspect is in custody...over!:killingme)

[Katman]

The reality is that America is on a downward spiral toward a police state where the police feel they can do whatever they like with complete impunity.

And the trouble is, the powers that be are quite happy for that to happen.

It keeps the masses under control.

[TheDemonLord]

The reality is that America is on a downward spiral toward a police state where the police feel they can do whatever they like with complete impunity.

And the trouble is, the powers that be are quite happy for that to happen.

It keeps the masses under control.

Well, its a bit deeper than that - there is some deep seated racism in the US, there are socio-economic issues, there is profiling (at one point does profiling stop becoming profiling and start being racism), there are groups that glorify criminal activity and imitate criminals in popular media, there is the 5th amendment (privledges get respected, rights get abused), and there are Cops who never know who might be packing and so when unsure will shoot first, ask questions later.

[Katman]

...and there are Cops who never know who might be packing and so when unsure will shoot first, ask questions later.

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/uQg4I.jpg"/>

[unstuck]

Especially when you get to read the full story, not just the media sensationalism.

Where do you find the full story?

[Katman]

Where do you find the full story?

You should do some research.

[unstuck]

You should do some research.

lol, shot bro. Was wondering where one found the FULL story if it is not in the media. :niceone:

[Katman]

Well, it turns out he stole the gun from Walmart and was only threatening to shoot himself.

Paints a fairly clear picture of police over-reaction.

Here's a longer version.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pvspr2riMNM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

What a dick!!!

You don't like people disagreeing with you, do you?

[jasonu]

Well, it turns out he stole the gun from Walmart and was only threatening to shoot himself.

Paints a fairly clear picture of police over-reaction.

>

He also robbed a store (as well as Walmart), pointed the gun at the cops, shot the gun in the presence of the cops, didn't follow directions from the cops and pointed the gun at his own head as can be seen on the vid. Fuck him, the biggest shame is the cops didn't squash his melon.

[jasonu]

You don't like people disagreeing with you, do you?

No, I just think you are a dick.

[Katman]

He also robbed a store (as well as Walmart), pointed the gun at the cops, shot the gun in the presence of the cops, didn't follow directions from the cops and pointed the gun at his own head as can be seen on the vid. Fuck him, the biggest shame is the cops didn't squash his melon.

I bet you wish you were the guy in post #9.

[unstuck]

Paints a fairly clear picture of police over-reaction.

Well I agree from that footage, and the cop needs to be tried for attempted murder. I think the good ol u.s of a has a hard road ahead and quite frankly I am glad I do not live there.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Then don't run from the Cops

Especially don't run from Cops who have guns and are trigger happy.

I had a bit of sympathy for the guy who acceidentally got shot (instead of Tasered) and subsquently died - but again - don't run from the Police:

If you run, you are guilty of something
If you are guilty of something, then you are a criminal
If you are a criminal, then you are probably armed
If you are probably armed, then best to shoot first, ask questions later.

What a crock of shit.

[Banditbandit]

Yeah ... the guy steals a gun ... threatens suicide .. so the cop tries to kill him ..


Well done !!!

Just kidding

[JimO]

soooooooo if he shot a old lady or a kid walking past everybody would be saying why didnt the cops do something, they cant win either way

[yokel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVByrAm0bi8

haha I bet that cop likes to play grand theft auto.

[TheDemonLord]

What a crock of shit.

Please elaborate - Are you saying that its ok to run from the police and you should not experience any negative consequences for doing so?

[Edbear]

The reality is that America is on a downward spiral toward a police state where the police feel they can do whatever they like with complete impunity.

And the trouble is, the powers that be are quite happy for that to happen.

It keeps the masses under control.

Obviously not...


Where do you find the full story?

You find interviews and reports with/from those directly involved on all sides.


He also robbed a store (as well as Walmart), pointed the gun at the cops, shot the gun in the presence of the cops, didn't follow directions from the cops and pointed the gun at his own head as can be seen on the vid. Fuck him, the biggest shame is the cops didn't squash his melon.

Now where did you learn that from? The likes of Katman and Unstuck would wonder... :innocent:

[Edbear]

Funny thing is, the anti-police group seem to think it's inconsequential that the poor innocent "victims" are criminals breaking the law. I wonder how they would deal with these poor people who are so picked on by the authority charged with bringing them to justice... :wait:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Please elaborate - Are you saying that its ok to run from the police and you should not experience any negative consequences for doing so?

If I was a black man in America I'd be scared shitless when being pulled over by the police. Did you see the beating the white fella got the other day? And seeing as all black fellas look the same (insert sarcasm do dacky), I'd be well worried that I was gonna look like the offender they actually wanted and were/are about to bash the living fuck out of me. And why wouldn't you be?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Funny thing is, the anti-police group seem to think it's inconsequential that the poor innocent "victims" are criminals breaking the law. I wonder how they would deal with these poor people who are so picked on by the authority charged with bringing them to justice... :wait:

Well I'm most certainly not anti police Ed. But at the same time, I'm most certainly not into any police officer that fires 8 shots at an unarmed man, then plants evidence on him to give himself an excuse for doing so. Are you telling me that shit is ok?

[unstuck]

You find interviews and reports with/from those directly involved on all sides.


Care to post some media free links for that information?:2thumbsup

[unstuck]

I also do not consider myself anti police, at least not nowadays, but there are procedures and guidelines they have to follow. It is not the wild west, and to try to murder someone without exhausting other avenues in my mind is overreacting and playing judge, jury and executioner all at the same time.

[jasonu]

If I was a black man in America I'd be scared shitless when being pulled over by the police. Did you see the beating the white fella got the other day? And seeing as all black fellas look the same (insert sarcasm do dacky), I'd be well worried that I was gonna look like the offender they actually wanted and were/are about to bash the living fuck out of me. And why wouldn't you be?


Well I'm most certainly not anti police Ed. But at the same time, I'm most certainly not into any police officer that fires 8 shots at an unarmed man, then plants evidence on him to give himself an excuse for doing so. Are you telling me that shit is ok?

No that one was way wrong and that cop will rot in jail for what he did.

But don't let the press lead you along with the 'white cop does this and that to the poor black man'. Daily there are stories you never hear in NZ about blacks killing whites, blacks killing blacks, whites killing whites etc. That stuff doesn't sell papers so don't make headlines. The press hypes the juicy stories eg plastering 4 year old pictures of Treyvon Martin in his school uniform and 5 year old pix of that guy from Fergusson when he was a cute little boy.

[Edbear]

Well I'm most certainly not anti police Ed. But at the same time, I'm most certainly not into any police officer that fires 8 shots at an unarmed man, then plants evidence on him to give himself an excuse for doing so. Are you telling me that shit is ok?

Definitely not. I fully agree with you in that case and other similar cases. No doubt this sort of thing is happening in the US, and an interview I watched highlighted that while it's not totally widespread, there's a long history behind the issue and some fundamentals need to be addressed.

It would appear, that the authorities, either by public pressure through such videos gaining coverage, or through a genuine desire to change attitudes are making progress. One would hope that the officers who feel they can flout the law will now think twice.

[Edbear]

Care to post some media free links for that information?:2thumbsup

jasonu didn't seem to have any problems, why do you?


No that one was way wrong and that cop will rot in jail for what he did.

But don't let the press lead you along with the 'white cop does this and that to the poor black man'. Daily there are stories you never hear in NZ about blacks killing whites, blacks killing blacks, whites killing whites etc. That stuff doesn't sell papers so don't make headlines. The press hypes the juicy stories eg plastering 4 year old pictures of Treyvon Martin in his school uniform and 5 year old pix of that guy from Fergusson when he was a cute little boy.

What? Are you saying the media aren't interested in fairness and accurate reporting - that it's all about ratings and money..? Shorly not! :shutup:

[unstuck]

jasonu didn't seem to have any problems, why do you?





I have not seen any media free links to information posted on this thread, what post please?

[bogan]

I have not seen any media free links to information posted on this thread, what post please?

The one what where the cop mowed down the dude didn't have any media in it...

What a fucking turkey, throw the book at that cop; or better yet, just tape it to a bumper and propel it to him that way :shifty:

[Gadget1]

soooooooo if he shot a old lady or a kid walking past everybody would be saying why didnt the cops do something, they cant win either way



Heh, if he got run over for walking with a gun and firing a shot, he'd probably get run over, then backed over, tazered and then shot for actually shooting someone.

[unstuck]

The one what where the cop mowed down the dude didn't have any media in it...



Social media is the new media, did you not know.:innocent: I would like to read the FULL story, media free, that has been talked about by Ed.:yes:

[mashman]

I'd love to hear the conversation that lead up to the incident. Anyone got that?

[unstuck]

I'd love to hear the conversation that lead up to the incident. Anyone got that?

Apparently Ed has heard the FULL story, but he will not share it for some reason.:whistle:

[Katman]

Then don't run from the Cops

Especially don't run from Cops who have guns and are trigger happy.


Are you seriously suggesting that running from the police is justification for being shot dead?

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Are you seriously suggesting that running from the police is justification for being shot dead?

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

Pretty sure that's exactly what he was saying.

[Katman]

Pretty sure that's exactly what he was saying.

What's next?

Maybe we should let them start shooting people who look nervous.

[Madness]

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

FFS, don't red rep him. The cunt had a tanty the last time I did, got rather messy. There's something about Rodney County, seems to be over-represented in the fuckwit stakes.


Maybe we should let them start shooting people who look nervous.

Start with gingers I say.

[R650R]

You've all been watching too much of Alexis Jones rise of the police state or whatever.

'Merica is 100 times our population, you can expect a lot more wackos and crims... and a few itchy trigger fingers from time to time. Just look how often our police have to deal with nutters these days from a much smaller gene pool...

Someone mentioned media hype and they are right, how about we hear more of the stories (and there are many) of people defending themselves from intruders by shooting them.

[R650R]

Are you seriously suggesting that running from the police is justification for being shot dead?

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

Actually pretty sure it is a legal justification to apprehend felon it certain circumstances in certain states....

[Katman]

Start with gingers I say.

And dumb fucks with girlie hair.

[JimO]

And dumb fucks with girlie hair.
and people who speed up in passing lanes

[awayatc]

I would be a shocking cop,
the number of people I would shoot, run over,
or just bludgeon to death...

Would need my own channel....

[scumdog]

Well, it turns out he stole the gun from Walmart and was only threatening to shoot himself.

Paints a fairly clear picture of police over-reaction.



Oh yes, people who threaten to shoot themselves ALWAYS only shoot themselves, never anybody else.:rolleyes:

You can always believe what they say...


The mad cunt got of light - hell two days in hospital and into the cells - not a bullet-hole in him.

[Katman]

Oh yes, people who threaten to shoot themselves ALWAYS only shoot themselves, never anybody else.:rolleyes:


So the police should be allowed to attempt to murder someone based solely on speculation now?

You'd fit right in in the States.

[scumdog]

So the police should be allowed to attempt to murder someone on speculation now?

You'd fit right in in the States.

'Attempt to murder someone' - get a grip, sheesh...talk about specualtion...

[Katman]

'Attempt to murder someone' - get a grip, sheesh...talk about specualtion...

You think that hit with the car could be classed as something other than attempted murder?

I try to remind myself you're not truly indicative of the 'quality' of police we have here.

Trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to fool myself.

[JATZ]

Are you seriously suggesting that running from the police is justification for being shot dead?

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

Suppose some dirtbag nicked, oooooo, lets say... your bike. They get chased, and lose it, then start running from the police. lets just imagine they have a gun and are quite likely wacked out on something, and a danger to the general public. Are you saying they should be let go ? in the hope they get caught later on ?

[Katman]

Suppose some dirtbag nicked, oooooo, lets say... your bike. They get chased, and lose it, then start running from the police. lets just imagine they have a gun and are quite likely wacked out on something, and a danger to the general public. Are you saying they should be let go ? in the hope they get caught later on ?

Fuck me, could you possibly let your imagination run any further?

What a fucking moronic post.

[Erelyes]

You find interviews and reports with/from those directly involved on all sides.

Rather than take the secret squirrel bullshit (aka "I'm right, you just can't find the stuff that shows it") how about posting your own sources. The onus is not on other people to prove your argument. :brick:


Well, it turns out he stole the gun from Walmart and was only threatening to shoot himself.

That's the thing about suiciders. The ones that just wanna kill themselves, do it. This guy was wandering down a road, shooting a gun in the air, headed towards an office complex. Didn't look like a suicider to me... but perhaps (like, supposedly, Edbear), you know something we don't?

The Police Chief makes the good point here (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/14/us/arizona-police-run-over-suspect/) that he was headed toward an office complex, with a loaded gun, and the cop was just making a split second decision before shit went further.

All well and good sitting on your ass in front of a PC saying what he shoulda done, but we don't have adrenaline pumping through our systems.

[Gadget1]

You've all been watching too much of Alexis Jones rise of the police state or whatever.

'Merica is 100 times our population, you can expect a lot more wackos and crims... and a few itchy trigger fingers from time to time. Just look how often our police have to deal with nutters these days from a much smaller gene pool...

Someone mentioned media hype and they are right, how about we hear more of the stories (and there are many) of people defending themselves from intruders by shooting them.


Population size has nothing to do with mental disorders, urbanisation on the other hand does.

Have you got facts on the many stories about people defending themselves by shooting intruders?

[unstuck]

Suppose some dirtbag nicked, oooooo, lets say... your bike. They get chased, and lose it, then start running from the police. lets just imagine they have a gun and are quite likely wacked out on something, and a danger to the general public. Are you saying they should be let go ? in the hope they get caught later on ?

Police dogs are good for catching runners, and there are other methods they could have employed I am sure. But If i was to mow someone down who in my mind had done a great wrong, then I would be charged with attempted murder I would imagine. Excessive and an over reaction is my opinion.

[unstuck]

Rather than take the secret squirrel bullshit (aka "I'm right, you just can't find the stuff that shows it") how about posting your own sources. The onus is not on other people to prove your argument. :brick:





You are wasting your time, he has nothing to back it up with.:2thumbsup

[Katman]

The Police Chief makes the good point here (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/14/us/arizona-police-run-over-suspect/) that he was headed toward an office complex, with a loaded gun, and the cop was just making a split second decision before shit went further.


Here's an idea....

They head him off (they were in cars after all and he was on foot) and get to a place where they can say "drop the gun or we'll shoot".

The only split second decision made here was a fucking brain fart.

[T.W.R]

<_< FFS the cop had just started his shift after a session of playing Grand Theft Auto & had forgotten to take his daily dose of prescription meds and had a flashback thinking his was still in game mode :shifty:
The victim came from a broken family suffered trauma from abuse as a child, was having withdrawal symptoms from stopping taking his meds for his mental issues and was a victim of the system & was crying out for help :facepalm:

lol he was out of hospital in two days and no one else was harmed :Police:

It's a fucked up place were any roll of the dice can have a minor or devastating result. Media sensationalism doctors the message to what they want you to hear <_<

:corn:

[unstuck]

<_< FFS the cop had just started his shift after a session of playing Grand Theft Auto & had forgotten to take his daily dose of prescription meds and had a flashback thinking his was still in game mode :shifty:
The victim came from a broken family suffered trauma from abuse as a child, was having withdrawal symptoms from stopping taking his meds for his mental issues and was a victim of the system & was crying out for help :facepalm:

lol he was out of hospital in two days and no one else was harmed :Police:

It's a fucked up place were any roll of the dice can have a minor or devastating result. Media sensationalism doctors the message to what they want you to hear <_<

:corn:

Likely, and maybe so. Have not had the benefit of hearing the FULL story without the media hype. But there is one person on the forum who has, but seems unwilling to share his sources. I would have thought It would be helpful for all concerned here to get the FULL story, so we can offer more informed opinions.:Police:

[mossy1200]

Personally I think the guy had lost the plot. He was capable of doing harm to others at any stage. Therefore he opened himself up to being hurt or killed. If the situation continued he would have been shot. He is probably lucky with the outcome.

[Katman]

Likely, and maybe so. Have not had the benefit of hearing the FULL story without the media hype. But there is one person on the forum who has, but seems unwilling to share his sources. I would have thought It would be helpful for all concerned here to get the FULL story, so we can offer more informed opinions.:Police:

Ed's just out of it on his drugs.

[Katman]

Personally I think the guy had lost the plot. He was capable of doing harm to others at any stage. Therefore he opened himself up to being hurt or killed. If the situation continued he would have been shot. He is probably lucky with the outcome.

The first step should be to contain the problem - not just mow it down without thought.

That's the trouble though - there's no shortage of police who are incapable of thinking.

We've got plenty of our own right here.

[scumdog]

Police dogs are good for catching runners, and there are other methods they could have employed I am sure. .

How long would you expect the cops to cruise alongside the guy waiting for the dog-handler to turn up.

Likewise other resources (bean-bag gun, tazer etc) may not have been suitable 'cos to use them may mean being within rifle range and in view of the nutter.

My 2-cents of logic...;)

[Katman]

My 2-cents of logic...;)

You're over-valuing yourself.

[unstuck]

How long would you expect the cops to cruise alongside the guy waiting for the dog-handler to turn up.

Likewise other resources (bean-bag gun, tazer etc) may not have been suitable 'cos to use them may mean being within rifle range and in view of the nutter.

My 2-cents of logic...;)

He never took a pot shot at any of the people who were walking past, that suggests to me he was not intent on doing innocents harm.

[scumdog]

I love this thread - it's got real key-board warriors who have never had/never will have a job where they are faced to figure out what to do with a mobile armed nutter....I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them about how I should do my job!:lol::rofl:

[bogan]

I love this thread - it's got real key-board warriors who have never had/never will have a job where they are faced to figure out what to do with a mobile armed nutter....I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them about how I should do my job!:lol::rofl:

So, did you mow down yours then?

[Katman]

I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them about how I should do my job!:lol::rofl:

Probably not.

That would require the ability to learn.

[JATZ]

Fuck me, could you possibly let your imagination run any further?

What a fucking moronic post.
Yes... Yes I could :wacko:
However, I asked a question. Would you be happy to see the offender get away, in the hope the police may catch up with them later ?


Police dogs are good for catching runners, and there are other methods they could have employed I am sure. But If i was to mow someone down who in my mind had done a great wrong, then I would be charged with attempted murder I would imagine. Excessive and an over reaction is my opinion.
True. It was a bit OTT. However, the decision was made in the heat of the moment, by someone who spends all day every day dealing with the dregs of society. Perhaps that had a bearing on the decision ?

[scumdog]

He never took a pot shot at any of the people who were walking past, that suggests to me he was not intent on doing innocents harm.

But for how long?

And if one innocent decided to be a hero and disarm him?

Remember, he's a nutter.

[mossy1200]

The first step should be to contain the problem - not just mow it down without thought.

That's the trouble though - there's no shortage of police who are incapable of thinking.

We've got plenty of our own right here.

Guy with gun walks into a house and takes hostage. So many outcomes. Armed man with probable mental issues impossible to predict next move.
Not sure why everyone gets angry when someone posts their opinions. If we all had the same opinion about things we wouldn't bother communicating with anyone.

[scumdog]

Probably not.

That would require the ability to learn.

"If the pupil hasn't learned - the teacher hasn't taught"

Go on teacher, teach me....:bleh:

[Katman]

Guy with gun walks into a house and takes hostage.

You clearly watched a different video.

[Katman]

"If the pupil hasn't leared - the teacher hasn't taught"

Go on teacher, teach me....:bleh:

You're beyond help.

[mossy1200]

You clearly watched a different video.

Your attention span is clearly one sentence long.

[scumdog]

So, did you mow down yours then?

Only the ones that need it, only the ones that need it....

[awayatc]

Any cop not behind a speedcamera should get a medal......

plenty of cunts deserve to he taken out

Not that we risk running out of arsehole anytime soon.....

[mossy1200]

You're wrong.

Again.

Then quote a whole post rather than try take something out of context to prove a point.

[bogan]

Only the ones that need it, only the ones that need it....

Well, you missed quite a few then...

[Katman]

Then quote a whole post rather than try take something out of context to prove a point.

So what was your point about a hostage-taking home invader?

[mossy1200]

The first step should be to contain the problem - not just mow it down without thought.

That's the trouble though - there's no shortage of police who are incapable of thinking.

We've got plenty of our own right here.


Guy with gun walks into a house and takes hostage. So many outcomes. Armed man with probable mental issues impossible to predict next move.
Not sure why everyone gets angry when someone posts their opinions. If we all had the same opinion about things we wouldn't bother communicating with anyone.


You clearly watched a different video.


Your attention span is clearly one sentence long.


Then quote a whole post rather than try take something out of context to prove a point.


So what was your point about a hostage taking home invader?

You assumed you could contain an armed man. I pointed out he could have walked into the next house and now its a hostage situation. Possible outcomes if the situation continued include innocent lives lost.

[Katman]

You assumed you could contain an armed man. I pointed out he could have walked into the next house and now its a hostage situation. Possible outcomes if the situation continued include innocent lives lost.

Like I said, you clearly watched a different video.

[T.W.R]

He never took a pot shot at any of the people who were walking past, that suggests to me he was not intent on doing innocents harm.

Where did the projectile end up ?? He discharged a high powered rifle in a public place :msn-wink: one fruit loop capable of doing a lot of damage in the blink of an eye.
Imagine the dramatics if he had started a free-lance pot-shot turkey shoot at the public........the cops stood back and did nothing till it was too late, fuck the media would have had a field day with that too :clap:

[mossy1200]

Like I said, you clearly watched a different video.

Must be the one where he put down his gun and raised his hands.
If he was in my street near my family I would want him stopped immediately.

Two years ago your posts were verging on clever and authoritative. Now not so much. Assuming you could contain that situation safely is ludicrous.

[Katman]

Assuming you could contain that situation safely is ludicrous.

U r .

[awayatc]

Like I said, you clearly watched a different video.

How many videos have you seen ,of people just before they went of the scales...?

how can you be so certain this character wasn't going to do damage to some innocent person minding his own businesses?

Please enlighten us mere mortals oh wise one.....

[Katman]

how can you be so certain this character wasn't going to do damage to some innocent person minding his own businesses?


Yeah, 'cos he clearly wasted that dude across the road from him.

(Besides, if he had more than one business he might have been at one of the other ones).

[mossy1200]

U r .

Awesome is the word you were looking for.

[Katman]

Awesome is the word you were looking for.

The full stop works.

[98tls]

Fuck me, could you possibly let your imagination run any further?

What a fucking moronic post.

:killingmeFuck me this from the cunt that wrote the book titled "Lifes a conspiracy".

[unstuck]

I will wait until I know the FULL story before making my final decision and opinion on this matter. There clearly has to be a FULL, UNsensationalist report on this incident out there somewhere, otherwise Ed would not be claiming there is, surely.:2thumbsup

[Voltaire]

I will wait until I know the FULL story before making my final decision and opinion on this matter. There clearly has to be a FULL, UNsensationalist report on this incident out there somewhere, otherwise Ed would not be claiming there is, surely.:2thumbsup

That's right, its important that us 'movers and shakers' have all the information before making an informed comment on such an illustrious media platform :innocent:

[unstuck]

That's right, its important that us 'movers and shakers' have all the information before making an informed comment on such an illustrious media platform :innocent:

How else are we to solve all the worlds dilemmas without knowing the FULL story. As KB members we have a responsibility to fix the world, and make it safer for all.:Punk::Punk:

[TheDemonLord]

Lots to reply to - looks like you all had an arguement without me :(


If I was a black man in America I'd be scared shitless when being pulled over by the police. Did you see the beating the white fella got the other day? And seeing as all black fellas look the same (insert sarcasm do dacky), I'd be well worried that I was gonna look like the offender they actually wanted and were/are about to bash the living fuck out of me. And why wouldn't you be?

And so running is going to make it better?

Lets engage in some speculation.

Assume for the minute that you are a black man, and you are about to pulled by a nutjob cop, looking to take out his frustration on you.

your options:

Stay, take the beating, Sue the tits off the police (cause of the American justice system)
Now, if you Run - the nutjob cop is now going to have a justification to say you are a criminal and use force - most likely deadly force, and unless you can outrun a bullet, there is no scenario where running from the cops ends well.

However Staying, might result in some short term pain, but ultimately, its less likely to end as badly than if you run.


Are you seriously suggesting that running from the police is justification for being shot dead?

If you are, you're seriously fucked in the head.

In America, with American gun laws and culture - that is exactly what I am saying. Because the police don't know if the runner is armed or not - could they pose a danger to the public? could they pose a danger to other police? All they know is that if they start to run, they are a Criminal (even if they haven't commited any other crimes, running from the cops is a Felony I believe) and if you are prepared to commit a Felony offence, you must be desperate - and desperate people do desperate things.

So yes - if you run from the Police in the US and the officer decides to shoot first and ask questions later, then that is your own dumb fault for running in the first place.

Would that shit fly over here? no, we don't have the problems with Firearms that the US does, that said - each time a fuckwit kills themselves in a Police Car chase - my thoughts are:

"Good Riddance"
and
"That'll teach you not to run from the police"

which is normally at the same time that the Bleeding Heart Brigade start to complain about the poor Criminals rights.

Now for those who think that I am all about the absolute rule of the Police and that the Police are infallible - nothing can be further from the Truth - there is a Time and Place to argue with the Police - its called 'a court' and maybe if less people who were being wrongfully detained or searched ran, and more people knew their rights and then laid charges against the police for Illegal behaviours, then we would see less of this.


FFS, don't red rep him. The cunt had a tanty the last time I did, got rather messy

I don't mind the Neg rep, or people disagreeing with me - Hypocrites who publicly complain about other people doing things to them that they themselves do with reckless abandon however....

[unstuck]

and more people knew their rights and then laid charges against the police for Illegal behaviours, then we would see less of this.

I have been told a few times, "you have the right to sit down and shut your fucking mouth" by asking what my rights were and if I could call a lawyer, so yeah the police are always looking to protect and uphold the laws of the land. Things are a little different these days but complaining about police behavior in the past was usually laughed at.:niceone:

The times they are a changing though.:banana::banana:

[Katman]

Lets engage in some speculation.

Assume for the minute that you are a black man, and you are about to pulled by a nutjob cop, looking to take out his frustration on you.

your options:

Stay, take the beating, Sue the tits off the police (cause of the American justice system)
Now, if you Run - the nutjob cop is now going to have a justification to say you are a criminal and use force - most likely deadly force, and unless you can outrun a bullet, there is no scenario where running from the cops ends well.

However Staying, might result in some short term pain, but ultimately, its less likely to end as badly than if you run.


You sound young.....



.....and rather stupid.

[TheDemonLord]

You sound young.....



.....and rather stupid.

And yet, I am still alive and have not been shot or chased the police, nor have I been arrested - been pulled over/up by police multiple times and have even had an illegal ticket revoked by lodging a complaint to the IPCA

[Edbear]

Rather than take the secret squirrel bullshit (aka "I'm right, you just can't find the stuff that shows it") how about posting your own sources. The onus is not on other people to prove your argument. :brick:

That's the thing about suiciders. The ones that just wanna kill themselves, do it. This guy was wandering down a road, shooting a gun in the air, headed towards an office complex. Didn't look like a suicider to me... but perhaps (like, supposedly, Edbear), you know something we don't?

The Police Chief makes the good point here (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/14/us/arizona-police-run-over-suspect/) that he was headed toward an office complex, with a loaded gun, and the cop was just making a split second decision before shit went further.

All well and good sitting on your ass in front of a PC saying what he shoulda done, but we don't have adrenaline pumping through our systems.

Being KB it should be naturally expected that certain members cannot help themselves to exaggerate and skew things. Poor dears we should be kind to their inabilities in comprehension. Erylees, Unstuck never fails to amuse with his posts and I would advise taking anything he posts about me with a grain of salt.

Jasonu had no problem finding what he posted and nobody has asked him where he got his info from. I also watched an interview on the news with a guy who is directly involved in addressing these issues in the US. I watched interviews with senior officers and of course, the longer video. The rest of your post I also agree with.


I love this thread - it's got real key-board warriors who have never had/never will have a job where they are faced to figure out what to do with a mobile armed nutter....I'm sure I'll learn a lot from them about how I should do my job!:lol::rofl:

Scumdog, meet KB...:innocent:

[Katman]

Jasonu had no problem finding what he posted and nobody has asked him where he got his info from.

Jasonu did nothing more than post a youtube video.

You don't actually have any 'full story', do you Ed?

[unstuck]

Being KB it should be naturally expected that certain members cannot help themselves to exaggerate and skew things. Poor dears we should be kind to their inabilities in comprehension. Erylees, Unstuck never fails to amuse with his posts and I would advise taking anything he posts about me with a grain of salt.

Jasonu had no problem finding what he posted and nobody has asked him where he got his info from. I also watched an interview on the news with a guy who is directly involved in addressing these issues in the US. I watched interviews with senior officers and of course, the longer video. The rest of your post I also agree with.



Scumdog, meet KB...:innocent:

But still you fail to produce a link to the FULL story, which makes you full of shit. Josonu never said he had the FULL story and posted a social media article. So I have no issue with him claiming something he has no intention or lo and behold the EVIDENCE to back up his claim.

Nice try at sidestepping ANOTHER issue though Ed.:innocent:

[unstuck]

Jasonu did nothing more than post a youtube video.

You don't actually have any 'full story', do you Ed?

Exactly my point, and no he does not have the FULL story as HE claimed. Which makes him full of shit.:shifty:

[Katman]

Exactly my point, and no he does not have the FULL story as HE claimed. Which makes him full of shit.:shifty:

He does have a habit of making it easy for those of us who consider him foolish.

[unstuck]

He does have a habit of making it easy for those of us who consider him foolish.

Yes, quite. And it feeds my twisted ego, which I do not deny and never have. But at least I am honest about that. :rolleyes:

Drawing up plans for water schemes is so boring that any small things like this amuse me greatly, I am a sad individual, and I think I should go out to the shed and make sweet sweet love to my bikes.:facepalm:

[Ulsterkiwi]

"If the pupil hasn't learned - the teacher hasn't taught"

Go on teacher, teach me....:bleh:

ehm, the pupil has to want to learn though....just sayin...

[Edbear]

But still you fail to produce a link to the FULL story, which makes you full of shit. Josonu never said he had the FULL story and posted a social media article. So I have no issue with him claiming something he has no intention or lo and behold the EVIDENCE to back up his claim.

Nice try at sidestepping ANOTHER issue though Ed.:innocent:

Quote me saying that I had the full story.

[unstuck]

A bit hard to find sympathy for the "poor man". Especially when you get to read the full story, not just the media sensationalism.

Post2.:shifty:

[Katman]

Quote me saying that I had the full story.

:facepalm:

Seriously Ed, could you be any more stupid?

[PrincessBandit]

Can't be bothered reading entire three pages (busy last day of school holidays.... that should wind up a few).

I am not a gun owner and have never fired a gun in my life (oh, tell a lie - air gun once when I was about 9 in a friends basement before OSH and all that).
But...surely police, at the very least, are trained in firearms use and how to bring down a suspect without always having to kill them?? Ok I realise that not everyone with a gun license, or trained policeman, or even soldier, is a finely honed sharpshooting sniper but if you're going to fire a weapon without intending to kill someone then surely there are ways you are taught to do that non-lethally?

Yeah yeah moving target'n'all but do these people get their gun license from a weetbix packet (must be a weetbix box 'cos that's where so many kiwi driver seem to find their...)

[scumdog]

But...surely police, at the very least, are trained in firearms use and how to bring down a suspect without always having to kill them??....if you're going to fire a weapon without intending to kill someone then surely there are ways you are taught to do that non-lethally?


Sorry but :facepalm:

[scumdog]

:killingmeFuck me this from the cunt that wrote the book titled "Lifes a conspiracy".

Oh the ironing...:lol:

[scumdog]

ehm, the pupil has to want to learn though....just sayin...

And I guess if said pupil has sussed out the intending teacher is a grade A dingbat he might just not want to learn...jus' sayin' an' all...:shifty:

[Katman]

Oh the ironing...:lol:

Except there's a little bit of a difference between asking questions about things that don't quite stack up and just inventing shit.

But then, I probably shouldn't expect you to be able to see that subtle difference.

[scumdog]

You assumed you could contain an armed man. I pointed out he could have walked into the next house and now its a hostage situation. Possible outcomes if the situation continued include innocent lives lost.

Then there's always the scenario the armed idiot is heading of to do the murder-suicide thing nearby - and using the threat of suicide to keep the cops at bay until he's shot the person he's after:whistle:....

But the Katmans of the world would know that would never happen.

(Assuming they even considered that possibility....:doh:)

[unstuck]

Then there's always the scenario the armed idiot is heading of to do the murder-suicide thing nearby - and using the threat of suicide to keep the cops at bay until he's shot the person he's after:whistle:....

But the Katmans of the world would know that would never happen.

(Assuming they even considered that possibility....:doh:)

I suppose we will never know thanks to the officer OVERREACTING.:bleh::bleh:

[Katman]

Then there's always the scenario the armed idiot is heading of to do the murder-suicide thing nearby - and using the threat of suicide to keep the cops at bay until he's shot the person he's after:whistle:....

But the Katmans of the world would know that would never happen.

(Assuming they even considered that possibility....:doh:)

I've already covered that in post #58.

Do try and keep up.

[Maha]

:killingmeFuck me this from the cunt that wrote the book titled "Lifes a conspiracy".

Not only that he is one, he also has one.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Can't be bothered reading entire three pages (busy last day of school holidays.... that should wind up a few).

I am not a gun owner and have never fired a gun in my life (oh, tell a lie - air gun once when I was about 9 in a friends basement before OSH and all that).
But...surely police, at the very least, are trained in firearms use and how to bring down a suspect without always having to kill them?? Ok I realise that not everyone with a gun license, or trained policeman, or even soldier, is a finely honed sharpshooting sniper but if you're going to fire a weapon without intending to kill someone then surely there are ways you are taught to do that non-lethally?

Yeah yeah moving target'n'all but do these people get their gun license from a weetbix packet (must be a weetbix box 'cos that's where so many kiwi driver seem to find their...)

I think what Scummy is trying to say PB is that once a decision has been made to discharge a firearm the situation has escalated to the point where you have no choice but to take down the person you are firing at. Shooting to wound is for the movies, most people who carry firearms as part of their job will not have the skill set to do that in the heat of the moment and probably not on the target range either.
The problem with the recent killing in the US was that the officer claimed he fired because his life was at risk and the video evidence shows that clearly was not the case.
He fired eight times, I seriously doubt that eight rounds hit the man who was killed. The video shows the distance that separated the police officer and the fleeing man was not that big, it still took eight shots to bring the man down. The police officer was clearly not a great marksman but probably just as good as any.

Assault by police vehicle may yet become a new offence. The bit I dont understand is the radio traffic clearly had someone saying "back off back off" and the police officer who did the ramming overtook another police car to do so. Its looks bad and hard to defend whatever way you look at it.

[TheDemonLord]

I am not a gun owner and have never fired a gun in my life (oh, tell a lie - air gun once when I was about 9 in a friends basement before OSH and all that).
But...surely police, at the very least, are trained in firearms use and how to bring down a suspect without always having to kill them?? Ok I realise that not everyone with a gun license, or trained policeman, or even soldier, is a finely honed sharpshooting sniper but if you're going to fire a weapon without intending to kill someone then surely there are ways you are taught to do that non-lethally?

Yeah yeah moving target'n'all but do these people get their gun license from a weetbix packet (must be a weetbix box 'cos that's where so many kiwi driver seem to find their...)

Once you are at the point of using Deadly force, its just that - Deadly - Wounded people can shoot back. Less-than-Lethal force (Tasers, Beanbag rounds etc.) are designed to incapacitate (which is a different principle than wounding) the problem is that they don't always work.

As for the Gun licences - America's 5th Amendment right is what allows just about anyone from getting a Gun Licence in the US, and the large amount of Firearms in circulation means that those without a licence don't exactly have much issue with getting a Firearm.

[scumdog]

I've already covered that in post #58.

Do try and keep up.

You call this 'covering it'?

"Here's an idea....

They head him off (they were in cars after all and he was on foot) and get to a place where they can say "drop the gun or we'll shoot". "


Yeah, that'll work with somebody threatening suicide..:facepalm:

Well here's another idea: You've no fucking idea.:oi-grr:

[TheDemonLord]

Assault by police vehicle may yet become a new offence. The bit I dont understand is the radio traffic clearly had someone saying "back off back off" and the police officer who did the ramming overtook another police car to do so. Its looks bad and hard to defend whatever way you look at it.

If memory serves me well - I am fairly certain that in the US there is precedent that using a Vehicle to intentionally hit someone is considered assault with a Deadly weapon

[scumdog]

Assault by police vehicle may yet become a new offence. The bit I dont understand is the radio traffic clearly had someone saying "back off back off" and the police officer who did the ramming overtook another police car to do so. Its looks bad and hard to defend whatever way you look at it.

Maybe it was the the officer intending to hit the madman that was saying that to the other cop car units so he could get a clear run at the madman?

Just a guess (since I haven't heard the sound-track) but a possibility

[unstuck]

Just a guess (since I haven't heard the sound-track) but a possibility

Apparently the FULL story is around somewhere.:lol::lol:

[Crasherfromwayback]

Apparently the FULL story is around somewhere.:lol::lol:

Lol. Ed's taking his time with that one strangely enough.

[Katman]

Yeah, that'll work with somebody threatening suicide..:facepalm:


If he'd only ended up blowing his own brains this thread would never have been started.

You don't really think things through before you hit that 'submit post' button, do you?

[Katman]

Maybe it was the the officer intending to hit the madman that was saying that to the other cop car units so he could get a clear run at the madman?

Just a guess (since I haven't heard the sound-track) but a possibility

I don't think so.

The "oh christ, man down" bit sounded like it came from someone gob-smacked at what had just occurred in front of him.

But feel free to just keep clutching at those straws.

(And here's a clue - turn your speakers on. You might get to hear the soundtrack then).

[Crasherfromwayback]

Apparently the FULL story is around somewhere.:lol::lol:

310835 times fucking ten char

[unstuck]

The "oh christ, man down" bit sounded like it came from someone gob-smacked at what had just occurred in front of him.



Yes, I got that impression also, it sounded to me that the guy on the radio could not believe what he had just witnessed. The shot he fired was not aimed at anyone and I wonder if it was in fact accidental. I suppose we will find out when Ed finally reveals his source to the FULL story.:yes:

[unstuck]

310835 times fucking ten char

I have never played chess, but I do strut around like an idiot, frequently. Usually when listening to mick jagger.:2thumbsup

[Murray]

I suppose we will find out when Ed finally reveals the FULL story.:yes:

Show some forgiveness

310837


He can't help it!!

[Katman]

Not only that he is one, he also has one.

Mark, that post doesn't even make any sense.

(Not that that should come as any surprise).

[jasonu]

http://www.ktvq.com/story/28813119/officer-who-drove-into-suspect-justified-chief-says


Robbery with a weapon, arson, home invasion, grand theft auto, more robbery (a gun and ammo), failing to follow police instructions (didn't put the gun down), pointing the gun at police (which he was fucking lucky he wasn't shot for) all in the space of a couple of hours. Maybe the cops should have let him shoot someone before stopping him....

Fifteen charges
Valencia faces 15 charges, including three counts of aggravated assault, three counts of armed robbery and possession of a deadly weapon by a prohibited possessor (that means he is a convicted felon and convicted felons are not allowed to possess firearms). Cohen-Metzger said he had a prior record.

Fuck him, the cop should have reversed over the cunts head and finished the job.

[scumdog]

If he'd only ended up blowing his own brains this thread would never have been started.

You don't really think things through before you hit that 'submit post' button, do you?


Ah, but he DIDN'T blow his brains out, - hence the thread.

So why introduce the 'if' factor now???

[Katman]

Fuck him, the cop should have reversed over the cunts head and finished the job.

So let me get this straight.....

On the morning he was hit, he stole from a 7 Eleven and was charged with theft.

An hour later he set fire to a church and was charged with arson.

How the fuck was he still at large later on in the day to be able to steal a car and gun?

He robbed the 7 Eleven in his underwear. Did the police not stop to wonder about his mental state?

Is mental illness automatically justification for using lethal force?

[scumdog]

I love this thread - it's got real key-board warriors who have never had/never will have a job where they are faced to figure out what to do with a mobile armed nutter....:rofl:

Yes, this factor is in full noise, championed by the usual suspect...:2thumbsup:nya::rofl:

[Katman]

Ah, but he DIDN'T blow his brains out, - hence the thread.

So why introduce the 'if' factor now???

That's right shit-for-brains, a police officer ran him down, at speed, from behind - hence the thread.

[scumdog]

Is mental illness automatically justification for using lethal force?

No.

I mean YOU'RE still alive, ain't you??:lol::whistle:

[jasonu]

So let me get this straight.....

On the morning he was hit, he stole from a 7 Eleven and was charged with theft.

An hour later he set fire to a church and was charged with arson.

How the fuck was he still at large later on in the day to be able to steal a car and gun?

He robbed the 7 Eleven in his underwear. Did the police not stop to wonder about his mental state?

Is mental illness automatically justification for using lethal force?


Common sense and the time lines in the article would say he was charged AFTER THE FACT, not at the actual time of the crimes.
You are right when you say mental illness is not automatic justification for lethal force. But pointing a gun at the police will almost always result in serious repercussions.

[Swoop]

As for the Gun licences - America's 5th Amendment right is what allows

What the fuck are you talking about? Get your facts straight.
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights and protects a person against being compelled to be a witness against himself or herself in a criminal case.

[scumdog]

That's right shit-for-brains, a police officer ran him down, at speed, from behind - hence the thread.

So why drag the 'if' factor into it a few posts back, sheesh, what a non-sequitur...

[JimO]

what a non-sequitur...
posh.......

[Katman]

So why drag the 'if' factor into it a few posts back, sheesh, what a non-sequitur...

Are you telling me that "what if he'd taken a hostage and shot them" isn't dragging in the "if" factor?

Like I said earlier, take a little longer to think before hitting the 'submit post' button.

[scumdog]

Are you telling me that "what if he'd taken a hostage and shot them" isn't dragging in the "if" factor?

Like I said earlier, take a little longer to think before hitting the 'submit post' button.



You were pretty quick to hit the 'submit' button yourself as you castigate others that used the mighty 'if'.

But are happy to use it yourself.


I am starting to think I'm arguing with that pigeon from Crasherfromwaybacks post few posts ago so I guess there's no use telling YOU to think...

[TheDemonLord]

What the fuck are you talking about? Get your facts straight.
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights and protects a person against being compelled to be a witness against himself or herself in a criminal case.

Oh Shit!

you are 100% correct - I meant the 2nd amendment

[unstuck]

http://www.ktvq.com/story/28813119/officer-who-drove-into-suspect-justified-chief-says




That puts a slightly different spin on the turn of events for sure. Still unsure if this is the FULL story though, because CNN have been know to make shit up before.:msn-wink:

Still think the officer over reacted and there would have been another way to handle the situation IMO.

Seemed easy enough for you to post up some(not FULL) information though. Would still like to see that side of it. :devil2:

[jasonu]

That puts a slightly different spin on the turn of events for sure. Still unsure if this is the FULL story though, because CNN have been know to make shit up before.:msn-wink:

Still think the officer over reacted and there would have been another way to handle the situation IMO.

Seemed easy enough for you to post up some(not FULL) information though. Would still like to see that side of it. :devil2:

What 'full' information are you wanting.
I found that with a quick google search 'police run over suspect'. I think it covered it nicely. The guy is a scumbag that did scumbag deeds and got what was coming to him.

[unstuck]

The guy is a scumbag that did scumbag deeds and got what was coming to him.

Maybe, but that article was from a source know for sensationalizing items of news. The FULL story apparently is not covered by sensationalist media, and thats the one I'm after.:shifty:

[scumdog]

From the criminal idiots lady lawyer:"My client's back was turned and the officer drove right into him," she said. "It isn't that dissimilar to a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect in the back."

Spare me days!:facepalm:

Yes, the officer should have driven past the criminal idiot, executed a smooth U-turn (hopefully without cleaning up any motorbikes) then rammed the idiot face on - Queensberry rules and all that old chap!

[unstuck]

Yes, the officer should have driven past the idiot offender, executed a smooth U-turn (hopefully without cleaning up any motorbikes) then rammed the idiot face on - Queensberry rules and all that old chap!

Would have made a better video.:Punk::Punk:

[willytheekid]

Ahhh you lot!:rolleyes:


...Im STILL laughin!:killingme (hit him THROUGH!! a brick wall...thats just awesome!)


Clear cut to me...the guy(Idiot, violent scumbag) points a gun at cops, the public and himself(Nuts!)....robs a place, sets a church on fire (with people in it!!) and has a previous record of violence etc

What did you expect the cops to do?...talk him down?, wait for him to fall asleep, put there own lives at risk in a armed stand off with a fuckin nutbag!:confused:


I thought the popo did bloody good!...In the moment, he saw an opportunity & opening to drop this fucker, fast! & HARD!!...so he took it! (And saved bullets in the process)



The nutbag started this rampage, the police are paid to stop it...by any means possible if it saves lives (theres as well!)...so they did! (And it looked fickin COOOOL...well, for us..obviously NOT the nutbag lol)


FUCK EM! - Live by the sword...die by the sword!.:yes:


Hence...Im starting to understand why the NZ Popo are bringing more "heavys/Thugs" into the force...just so many fucking violent armed thugs havin a go at the police nowadays...hence, ya fight fire with fire!...never nice, but times are changing, and the loonies are multiplying thanks to PC fuckers banning darwinism!

[Maha]

Mark, that post doesn't even make any sense.

(Not that that should come as any surprise).

Admit it Steve, you are the complete woman in any mans language.

[Katman]

From the criminal idiots lady lawyer:"My client's back was turned and the officer drove right into him," she said. "It isn't that dissimilar to a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect in the back."

Spare me days!:facepalm:

Yes, the officer should have driven past the criminal idiot, executed a smooth U-turn (hopefully without cleaning up any motorbikes) then rammed the idiot face on - Queensberry rules and all that old chap!

Seriously man, please don't ever consider moving into investigative police work.

Stick to being their Lost and Found Monitor.

[scumdog]

Seriously man, please don't ever consider moving into investigative police work.

Stick to being their Lost and Found Monitor.


Another non-sequitur

Eight more and you get a free toaster!

[jasonu]

From the criminal idiots lady lawyer:"My client's back was turned and the officer drove right into him," she said. "It isn't that dissimilar to a police officer shooting a fleeing suspect in the back."

Spare me days!:facepalm:

Yes, the officer should have driven past the criminal idiot, executed a smooth U-turn (hopefully without cleaning up any motorbikes) then rammed the idiot face on - Queensberry rules and all that old chap!

Must spread more rep...

[TheDemonLord]

Seriously man, please don't ever consider moving into investigative police work.

Stick to being their Lost and Found Monitor.

Okay Katman - I have a question for you:

At what point(s) are the Police justified to use Deadly force (in your opinion)?

and

based on your answer to the above, what is it in this incident that in your opinion means that Deadly force wasn't justified?

[Big Dog]

Can't be bothered reading entire three pages (busy last day of school holidays.... that should wind up a few).

I am not a gun owner and have never fired a gun in my life (oh, tell a lie - air gun once when I was about 9 in a friends basement before OSH and all that).
But...surely police, at the very least, are trained in firearms use and how to bring down a suspect without always having to kill them?? Ok I realise that not everyone with a gun license, or trained policeman, or even soldier, is a finely honed sharpshooting sniper but if you're going to fire a weapon without intending to kill someone then surely there are ways you are taught to do that non-lethally?

Yeah yeah moving target'n'all but do these people get their gun license from a weetbix packet (must be a weetbix box 'cos that's where so many kiwi driver seem to find their...)
Whatever your intent, you never pull the trigger if you aren't prepared to kill what's at the end of the barrel.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[unstuck]

From another source......Former US Secret Service agent Dan Bongino told CNN that the suspect had to be stopped but not with a vehicle running into him.

"I have to question this tactic a bit," he said. "I think setting up a secure perimeter and at least making some attempt to negotiate may have been far more efficient."


:shifty::shifty:

[Katman]

Okay Katman - I have a question for you:

At what point(s) are the Police justified to use Deadly force (in your opinion)?

and

based on your answer to the above, what is it in this incident that in your opinion means that Deadly force wasn't justified?

It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted.

[TheDemonLord]

It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted.

So, Immediate risk is not a factor - only that all other options have been exhausted?

The Reducto ad absurdium of this would be that you would be happy to let own family be killed, so that all other methods could be exhausted first.

You will forgive my skepticism if I think that your answer is not your complete opinion and were you presented with a scenario above, you would prefer that the Police acted in such a manner that your family lives, at the expense of trying other methods.

[jasonu]

It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted.

Like what? Reasoning with him. Promising him a helicopter ride to the Bahamas?
They told him to put down the gun and submit.
What more is there when dealing with a deranged individual with a loaded gun?????

[Katman]

You will forgive my skepticism if I think that your answer is not your complete opinion and were you presented with a scenario above, you would prefer that the Police acted in such a manner that your family lives, at the expense of trying other methods.

Clearly you haven't got a fucking clue what I think.

[Katman]

What more is there when dealing with a deranged individual with a loaded gun?????

Negotiation.

Not "put down the gun or I'll....BANG....shoot".

[Katman]

I'm sure the likes of Scumdog literally salivate over the idea of being allowed to shoot every mentally ill person they come across.

Trouble is, that does not make for a civilised society.

[scumdog]

I'm sure the likes of Scumdog literally salivate over the idea of being allowed to shoot every mentally ill person they come across.

Trouble is, that does not make for a civilised society.

I detect a tone of nervousness here - but it's your lucky day punk - I'm not up the North Island THIS weekend...

[TheDemonLord]

Clearly you haven't got a fucking clue what I think.

So, You'd let your own family die in the scenario I mentioned, whilst all alternatives were tried?

[Katman]

So, You'd let your own family die in the scenario I mentioned, whilst all alternatives were tried?

Fuck off moron.

[bogan]

From another source......Former US Secret Service agent Dan Bongino told CNN that the suspect had to be stopped but not with a vehicle running into him.

"I have to question this tactic a bit," he said. "I think setting up a secure perimeter and at least making some attempt to negotiate may have been far more efficient."


:shifty::shifty:

Clearly, he hasn't heard the full story either :whistle:

[TheDemonLord]

Fuck off moron.

Hostile response, Defensive and ad-hominems.

Yep.

I'm right.

[unstuck]

but it's your lucky day punk

Keep me out of your little argument.:devil2:

[bogan]

Hostile response, Defensive and ad-hominems.

Yep.

I'm right.

I think your reducto ad-absurdium was a bit absurd. Trying all options clearly means trying all options to prevent the suspect from seriously harming anyone.

In that video, there were still options available.

[Maha]

So, Immediate risk is not a factor - only that all other options have been exhausted?



On this occasion, the word 'all' changes the very meaning of what Steve said ''It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted''.

The way he puts it does not include ALL means/options. ''Other means'' clearly instills that he believes that if ie: shouting (other means) fails then shooting is permissible.

[unstuck]

In an alternative universe there is another possibility...........The guy robs a gun off walmart intending to top himself, goes for a tootle down the street, cops tell him to put the gun down and he is thinking, fuck that, I want to find a nice quiet place to shoot myself, gun goes off accidentally while strolling along, when from out of nowhere comes rambo cop and runs his ass over.
Everyone is shocked and worried about actions of rambo cop, so the powers that be, wether local or national, decide there has been too much bad publicity from cops getting a little out of hand lately so come to the conclusion that they better make this one look justified and decide to pin all these other crimes on the would be mass murderer. Investigate rambo cop, internally of course. And cook up this story to feed to the biggest lying media outlet in the world CNN, and hope it all goes away.:whistle:

[TheDemonLord]

I think your reducto ad-absurdium was a bit absurd.

Which is entirely the point of the arguement

[Latte]

Quote me saying that I had the full story.


A bit hard to find sympathy for the "poor man". Especially when you get to read the full story, not just the media sensationalism.

So where's the full story.

[jasonu]

Fuck off moron.

Excellent well thought out comeback...:laugh::third:

[bogan]

Which is entirely the point of the arguement

Not if it were based on an absurd premise; ie, the goal being to stop him instead of stop him from doing harm.

[jasonu]

I think your reducto ad-absurdium was a bit absurd. Trying all options clearly means trying all options to prevent the suspect from seriously harming anyone.

In that video, there were still options available.

Yes they could gave shot him.

[unstuck]

So where's the full story.

He must have meant the CNN one, because they do not do sensationalist media.:shifty:
That seems to be the only source who have been fed any information.


Maybe Jasonu can find some more local court news that shows that he has been found guilty of these other crimes?

[TheDemonLord]

On this occasion, the word 'all' changes the very meaning of what Steve said ''It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted''.

The way he puts it does not include ALL means/options. ''Other means'' clearly instills that he believes that if ie: shouting (other means) fails then shooting is permissible.

From this perspective then, how do we determine at what point the other means criteria has been satisfied?

Since it is the only metric Katman uses, it has no relation to immediate threat to people/property or any other factor.

The point that I am labelling here is that sometimes a situation develops in such a way that the police do not have an option to try other means first and so the answer given is both simplistic and unrealistic.

I will grant that trying other means should always be preferred whilst acknowledging that there are times where the situation is such that they cannot be tried first.

If we for the sake of argument adopt this position - then the question becomes what factors do we use to determine if other means can and should be tried first.

Given from the video we see:

An armed offender, Acting erratically, ignoring police, in the vicinity of the general public, showing complete disregard for all firearm safety rules.

I put forward that the above is grounds enough to forgo other means.

[jasonu]

Maybe Jasonu can find some more local court news that shows that he has been found guilty of these other crimes?

Couldn't find any local court news. Chances are it is too soon to expect a result from the courts plus I am not sure how much of that stuff is released in AZ.
http://tbo.com/ap/experts-say-ariz-officer-justified-using-car-to-hit-suspect-20150415/

[Latte]

What the fuck are you talking about? Get your facts straight.
The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution is part of the Bill of Rights and protects a person against being compelled to be a witness against himself or herself in a criminal case.

I plead the fifth ... with my Shotgun.

[Paul in NZ]

What is wrong with you people?

[unstuck]

Couldn't find any local court news. Chances are it is too soon to expect a result from the courts plus I am not sure how much of that stuff is released in AZ.


Pretty much the same as I could find too, cheers for the effort though.:niceone:
With Americas track record for lies and truth manipulation, I will keep my mind open . Something just does not sit right with me about this one, and I like to follow my instincts. Maybe he did commit all those other crimes, but maybe he didn't. The FULL story would reveal all that I am sure.:shifty:

[Edbear]

So where's the full story.

I see what you mean. Obviously unstuck has an agenda. The initial story was based on the brief video which didn't, of course, show the "full story". I had seen the full clip plus the interviews with senior officers and the guy involved in dealing with this issue.

[Edbear]

What is wrong with you people?

Lol! Give me a few pages to make a list...:shutup:

[Erelyes]

times fucking ten char

arguing-with-idoits.jpg

*snicker*

[Maha]

Lol! Give me a few pages to make a list...:shutup:

I've started a list, I am up to the letter K and it's proving time consuming.

[bogan]

I see what you mean. Obviously unstuck has an agenda. The initial story was based on the brief video which didn't, of course, show the "full story". I had seen the full clip plus the interviews with senior officers and the guy involved in dealing with this issue.

That 'full story' sounds like it is only told from one side... :innocent:

[scumdog]

What is wrong with you people?

C'mon Paul, jump onto The 20-20 Hindsight Wagon and tell us all what YOU would do.

Common sense need not apply...

[Edbear]

Lol. Ed's taking his time with that one strangely enough.

Sorry, some of us work as well. :innocent:

[Latte]

I see what you mean. Obviously unstuck has an agenda. The initial story was based on the brief video which didn't, of course, show the "full story". I had seen the full clip plus the interviews with senior officers and the guy involved in dealing with this issue.

Can you link to the full story (clips plus interviews you've mentioned)?

[Edbear]

That 'full story' sounds like it is only told from one side... :innocent:

Naturally you show again that you can't read. One of the interviews was from a black man who had been working with his group to change the mindset of the Police. He's been directly involved for several years dealing with this sort of issue.

[Edbear]

Can you link to the full story (clips plus interviews you've mentioned)?

Probably easier to go to TVNZ News archives.

[jasonu]

Pretty much the same as I could find too, cheers for the effort though.:niceone:
With Americas track record for lies and truth manipulation, I will keep my mind open . Something just does not sit right with me about this one, and I like to follow my instincts. Maybe he did commit all those other crimes, but maybe he didn't. The FULL story would reveal all that I am sure.:shifty:

Maybe some of you read too much into what is said. Maybe this guy is simply a scumbag who did everything they say he did and he got properly served Arizona style. The conspiracy theorists among us quite often cannot see through the low brim of their tinfoil hats.

[bogan]

Naturally you show again that you can't read. One of the interviews was from a black man who had been working with his group to change the mindset of the Police. He's been directly involved for several years dealing with this sort of issue.

Jesus ed, now you're playing the race card :facepalm:

What full story have you put up for us to read anyway?

[unstuck]

Maybe some of you read too much into what is said. Maybe this guy is simply a scumbag who did everything they say he did and he got properly served Arizona style. The conspiracy theorists among us quite often cannot see through the low brim of their tinfoil hats.

Yep, maybe so. And we will not know until everything has been aired (the full story if you will).:innocent:

[Banditbandit]

What is wrong with you people?

There's trees out there making oxygen for every one of us ...

Some of us need to find our tree and apologize to it ...

[Banditbandit]

Fuck me .. crazy steals a gun from a shop, points it at cops, points it at himself .. fires into the air ...

Cop takes him down ...

What the fuck is your problem ??? Cop did a GREAT job .. bad guy only does two days in hospital ... if they'd shot him (which would have been an acceptable option) dopey dude would be dead ...

Better to take him out with a car than to have him shoot someone ...

[Crasherfromwayback]

What is wrong with you people?

Me? Absolutely nothing. I'm perfect.

[jasonu]

Can you link to the full story (clips plus interviews you've mentioned)?

They are all out there and not that hard to find. Start with the links I have posted.

[jasonu]

Jesus ed, now you're playing the race card :facepalm:


But that is what the press do...

[scumdog]

Me? Absolutely nothing. I'm perfect.

Ohh,,yeah..me too!:D

[mashman]

What is wrong with you people?

Fluoridated water :shifty:

[bogan]

But that is what the press do...

And what sort of muppet goes to them for the full story either? :blink:

[scumdog]

And what sort of muppet goes to them for the full story either? :blink:


Most on KB - and in NZ?

[unstuck]

Most on KB - and in NZ?

And that folks is what is wrong with the world today, people blindly believing what is handed out by mass media.:bleh:

[scumdog]

And that folks is what is wrong with the world today, people blindly believing what is handed out by mass media.:bleh:

Ain't that the truth!

(I'm actually an 80 year old black monk living in Mangaweka with Helen Clarkes twin sister...)

[unstuck]

Ain't that the truth!

(I'm actually an 80 year old black monk living in Mangaweka with Helen Clarkes twin sister...)

Hey, if you want to sleep with he-shes, then keep on truckin fella.:sick:

[98tls]

Ain't that the truth!

(I'm actually an 80 year old black monk living in Mangaweka with Helen Clarkes twin sister...)

If so pray tell which one is Helen?

[Madness]

What is wrong with you people?

The cunt just needs a proper haircut and a good stab in the eye with a fork.

You did ask.

[Katman]

I've started a list, I am up to the letter K and it's proving time consuming.

L comes next.

[BuzzardNZ]

I've started a list, I am up to the letter K and it's proving time consuming.

So you got through the B's fairly quickly then? :scratch: ;)

[bogan]

So you got through the B's fairly quickly then? :scratch: ;)

They got me baffled, bamboozled, and bemused.

[Mo NZ]

Fuck me .. crazy steals a gun from a shop, points it at cops, points it at himself .. fires into the air ...

Cop takes him down ...

What the fuck is your problem ??? Cop did a GREAT job .. bad guy only does two days in hospital ... if they'd shot him (which would have been an acceptable option) dopey dude would be dead ...

Better to take him out with a car than to have him shoot someone ...


Yup.
Best outcome all round for all concerned.

But I must comment on when he pointed the weapon at the police.
I think, possibly he was not shot because they had only pistols at hand and was " out of range" ,
a bushmaster or similar would have had a very different result.

[Big Dog]

I'm sure the likes of Scumdog literally salivate over the idea of being allowed to shoot every mentally ill person they come across.

Trouble is, that does not make for a civilised society.

Nah, here in NZ they prefer to play laser tag and invoice you for playing the game...

[Big Dog]

From this perspective then, how do we determine at what point the other means criteria has been satisfied?

Since it is the only metric Katman uses, it has no relation to immediate threat to people/property or any other factor.

The point that I am labelling here is that sometimes a situation develops in such a way that the police do not have an option to try other means first and so the answer given is both simplistic and unrealistic.

I will grant that trying other means should always be preferred whilst acknowledging that there are times where the situation is such that they cannot be tried first.

If we for the sake of argument adopt this position - then the question becomes what factors do we use to determine if other means can and should be tried first.

Given from the video we see:

An armed offender, Acting erratically, ignoring police, in the vicinity of the general public, showing complete disregard for all firearm safety rules.

I put forward that the above is grounds enough to forgo other means.
In the light of this thread, you signature is hilarious.

[Big Dog]

What is wrong with you people?
They cancelled state provided mental health... so we are all here.

[Crasherfromwayback]

They got me baffled, bamboozled, and bemused.

Least you weren't buggered as well.

[Katman]

Least you weren't buggered as well.

He might be bummed out about that.

[FJRider]

He might be bummed out about that.

quit with the honda jokes ....

[bogan]

He might be bummed out about that.

Yeh, it could have been a bit of a bone-arse...

[Madness]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Hk44_bIhmGY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

. :corn:

[PrincessBandit]

....Shooting to wound is for the movies, most people who carry firearms as part of their job will not have the skill set to do that in the heat of the moment and probably not on the target range either.
The problem with the recent killing in the US was that the officer claimed he fired because his life was at risk and the video evidence shows that clearly was not the case.


Oh, ok I didn't realise shoot to wound was a Hollywood thing. And the real problem is that this is not an isolated incident, regardless of the circumstances it's yet another in a long string of police-killing-people in the US.


Once you are at the point of using Deadly force, its just that - Deadly

They reach that point so frequently don't they.


There's trees out there making oxygen for every one of us ...

Some of us need to find our tree and apologize to it ...

Hohohoho, must spread more love before sending more your way.

[Big Dog]

[CENTER[/CENTER]

. :corn:

I agree with the female officer in this clip... cop car or not how is she to know it is not stolen if it is traveling at that speed without authorisation, flashing lights etc.

[Katman]

I agree with the female officer in this clip... cop car or not how is she to know it is not stolen if it is traveling at that speed without authorisation, flashing lights etc.

She probably should have rammed his car though.

[unstuck]

She probably should have rammed his car though.

Nah, wait until he gets out and ram him seems to be the way to go.:whistle:

[Katman]

Nah, wait until he gets out and ram him seems to be the way to go.:whistle:

Imagine the thread that would start.

[Big Dog]

Be a pretty fair bet the perp was armed...

[unstuck]

Be a pretty fair bet the perp was armed...

Exactly, and was endangering the public.:msn-wink:

[Ocean1]

On this occasion, the word 'all' changes the very meaning of what Steve said ''It's justified when other means of resolution have been exhausted''.

The way he puts it does not include ALL means/options. ''Other means'' clearly instills that he believes that if ie: shouting (other means) fails then shooting is permissible.

Perhaps the officer could have demanded the perp sucked his dick...

[unstuck]

Perhaps the officer could have demanded the perp sucked his dick...

Happy endings all round.:woohoo::woohoo:

[Big Dog]

On the subject of cop videos. http://www.therock.net.nz/Cop-gets-hit-by-falling-tree-during-traffic-stop/tabid/1461/articleID/29569/Default.aspx

[unstuck]

On the subject of cop videos. http://www.therock.net.nz/Cop-gets-hit-by-falling-tree-during-traffic-stop/tabid/1461/articleID/29569/Default.aspx

Must have been with the special branch.:Police:

[Big Dog]

Must have been with the special branch.:Police:

Pretty fair bet his mates gave him stick for some time.

[unstuck]

Pretty fair bet his mates gave him stick for some time.

Looked like it wood of hurt though. Wonder if the car was rooted.

[Big Dog]

Looked like it wood of hurt though. Wonder if the car was rooted.

His gait was deifinitely a bit wooden on the walk back to the crusier.
Wooden want to bet against there being some grumpy notes in his log book.

[unstuck]

The dog was barking up the wrong tree too.

[Big Dog]

Went to fetch the drivers details... retrieved the stick in his arse?

[husaberg]

<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z_JOGmXpe5I" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Am I the only one who was thinking this.........

The bit when the cop goes "man down".......... "man down".
After the other squad car had rammed him.
I am not totally sure if he had actually landed by then.

The cop was innovative if he had not done that, The guy would have been shot.
Police shoot to kill it is the only way it should be. if you point a weapon at someone without the intent to shoot them it is irrelevant.
He presented a firearm in public, he then discharged the firearm. What should he have expected.
the thread title is correct.

[caspernz]

Having watched the video footage, the action of the cop driving the car seemed like overkill. My first thought was something like "are you all such bad shots you can't pop a couple of rounds in him?" so you run the guy down in a patrol car... But yeah I wasn't there, and am always dubious of which slant the media is taking with reporting such an event.

[98tls]

Having watched the video footage, the action of the cop driving the car seemed like overkill. My first thought was something like "are you all such bad shots you can't pop a couple of rounds in him?" so you run the guy down in a patrol car... But yeah I wasn't there, and am always dubious of which slant the media is taking with reporting such an event.
All things said n done though if your looking at bang for buck the car things the way to do it eh.

[Big Dog]

All things said n done though if your looking at bang for buck the car things the way to do it eh.

They say If you want to get away with murder here you use a car. Maybe he was a recent on holiday here?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[jasonu]

But wait, there's more...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/17/us/arizona-suspect-walmart-rifle/index.html

[unstuck]

Hmmmm, so did he in fact fire a shot.:shifty:

The plot thickens.:innocent:

[husaberg]

Hmmmm, so did he in fact fire a shot.:shifty:

The plot thickens.:innocent:
It was on Katmans Video about 1.23
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Pvspr2riMNM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Mo NZ]

Hmmmm, so did he in fact fire a shot.:shifty:

The plot thickens.:innocent:

If you watch the video he dose indeed fire a shot, and also turn and bring the rifle towards the officers briefly.
At that moment he proves the rifle is loaded and he knows how to fire it.
Also he is also prepared to use it in full view of the attending Police.

From that moment onwards he is very likely and justifiably risk of being shot.
Tazer - forget it. He has a 30cal rifle. No safe place within 500metres.
Risk to officers and any member of the public he may see - you bet, as high as it gets.

Correct Police action = TAKE HIM OUT - NOW

He is very lucky he was run by an officer who recognised an opportunity, not without risk to the officer,
who was able to use a low risk ( to the prick with the gun ) course of action to incapacitate him.

The cop following was clearly under stress and unable to answer a simple question of " Who fired the shot?"
His answer was not clear and immediate.
EG 1 Shot fired by the offender - he said negative or something and was not clear in his answer.

The other cop behind him took a very brave and correct course of action.
I say that as the offender could have turned and had a very easy shot at the officer in the car.

With a 30cal rifle, being shot usually is fatal.

[unstuck]

Yeah, nah.:innocent:

[Mo NZ]

Yeah, nah.:innocent:

Your brain must not be engaged and you ears and eyes must be glued on.

[unstuck]

Your brain must not be engaged and you ears and eyes must be glued on.

Because I do not hold the same opinion as you, you start getting all prissy.:laugh::laugh::laugh:

And people wonder why cunts want to go round shooting people.:msn-wink: Maybe Ed told you the FULL story, if so you have me at a disadvantage.
Some of you people on here are so serious about life, it is a wonder you can shit normally. :bleh::bleh:

[Mo NZ]

That video was actually posted earlier in the thread.

You must have missed it.

And despite ( possibly ) seeing it again later in the post your still being obtuse.