Replacing bottom end of FZR 3tj. I need Yamaha advice and parts sources

[lazaah]

Hey guys,

Anyone know of someone whom has done bottom end repairs on FZR400's? Have a friend doing such job on mine, but we are a bit stuck.

Basically, the engine has been opened up to look at replacing the bottom end bearings, and we have found that the crank is slightly worn at two of the pins/journals and out of spec.

The workshop manual says if the crank is out of spec, to replace it with a new factory item. Not that easy...

Soo, my mate has tasked me to find out what we can do in the way of bearings. I'll admit, this isn't my field.

If there are over-sized bearings available, then he suggests an option may be to have the crank reground and fit over-sized bearings. Would it be best just to call around yamaha dealerships for this? (Kinda reluctant to taking their advice as this is how I ended up in this position in the first place). Similarly, is it ok to fit different sized bearings, say if the bearings corresponding to journals that aren't worn are reused, and bearings of reground journals replaced with oversized ones?

I do have a spare 1WG engine, but we haven't pulled that apart to check its condition yet. If the crank from the original engine is completely buggered, then the crank from this one may be an option. Still need to find bearings though...

Cheers ahead

[Grumph]

Is this the one Kai was helping with ?
Short answer is that there are no undersize shells available. How bad is the crank ? Measurements please...More than half a thou out of round and it's throwaway. Rods can be resized and reused if a shell has spun but forget grinding the cranks.
Shells should be available through, you guessed it, a Yamaha dealer...In ChCh, personal preference says Bob McCleary in Rangiora rather than anyone in town.
Clayton is probably the best Yamaha parts guy left in the SI.

[lazaah]

Is this the one Kai was helping with ?
Short answer is that there are no undersize shells available. How bad is the crank ? Measurements please...More than half a thou out of round and it's throwaway. Rods can be resized and reused if a shell has spun but forget grinding the cranks.
Shells should be available through, you guessed it, a Yamaha dealer...In ChCh, personal preference says Bob McCleary in Rangiora rather than anyone in town.
Clayton is probably the best Yamaha parts guy left in the SI.


Cheers Grumph. Sure is, his words are:
"Your crank mains (measurement of crankshaft journal) are around 29.987mm.
A highest of 29.990 and lowest of 29.984.
Bit of scuffing. Your big ends have a problem, 3rd big-end has significant wear and came in at 29.945mm the other 3 were basically 29.987 + - .002
So ill check specs tmoro, possibly can still machine or polish crank and re-use if groves arent too bad on num 3"

The service manual doesn't say what the size of the journals should be, but state a Runout limit of 0.03mm. Putting the crank out of spec and needing to be replaced based on #3's measurement. However, by your measurements we might be safe.

[rustys]

Hi Lazaah.
I will be pulling a FZR 3TJ-1 engine apart in the next two weeks for Parts. It droped a valve so has damaged head and cylinder liner, bottom end and cranks should be ok. PM me if you need help.

[Grumph]

Cheers Grumph. Sure is, his words are:
"Your crank mains (measurement of crankshaft journal) are around 29.987mm.
A highest of 29.990 and lowest of 29.984.
Bit of scuffing. Your big ends have a problem, 3rd big-end has significant wear and came in at 29.945mm the other 3 were basically 29.987 + - .002
So ill check specs tmoro, possibly can still machine or polish crank and re-use if groves arent too bad on num 3"

The service manual doesn't say what the size of the journals should be, but state a Runout limit of 0.03mm. Putting the crank out of spec and needing to be replaced based on #3's measurement. However, by your measurements we might be safe.

Those figures would suggest #3 is out .0015in - sorry, I still think imperial when it comes to bearing sizes. This is usually beyond the range of selective bearing fitting.
Your other bottom end or rusty's offer would both be worth looking into.

[lazaah]

Cheers Grumph.

Rusty, I will be in touch.

Gee, there must be a mass grave of FZR's out there with no bottom ends. What do people do when they damage cranks racing them?

[mossy1200]

Do the best option

400/600 fzr.

[Paul in NZ]

It have had a major hammering at some point ;-(

The FZR400 was sold new in the USA and is still raced there and as far as I could see it was the best place to buy stuff. If you look there are dedicated FZR400 forums and the folks are usually friendly and very very helpful. I purchased everything from Eds Honda in Boston at around the 1/3 of the price from Yamaha here... Yeah I know... weird...

[Grumph]

It have had a major hammering at some point ;-(

The FZR400 was sold new in the USA and is still raced there and as far as I could see it was the best place to buy stuff. If you look there are dedicated FZR400 forums and the folks are usually friendly and very very helpful. I purchased everything from Eds Honda in Boston at around the 1/3 of the price from Yamaha here... Yeah I know... weird...

Most have by now had a major hammering...

Yamaha prices - not so silly when you know the global pricing zones they work to. NZ of course is in one of the expensive ones...And post internet they should be irrelevant anyway.

[lazaah]

Do the best option

400/600 fzr.

That would be ideal, but as a pg-student its taken me well over a year to save the measly thousand'ish dollars I have at hand to get the bike on the road as it is... Now that I am back living in the big city it is even harder to put money aside. Pretty depressing when you have a paperweight-could-be-running motorbike, but get round on a 30 year old 10 speed!


It have had a major hammering at some point ;-(

The FZR400 was sold new in the USA and is still raced there and as far as I could see it was the best place to buy stuff. If you look there are dedicated FZR400 forums and the folks are usually friendly and very very helpful. I purchased everything from Eds Honda in Boston at around the 1/3 of the price from Yamaha here... Yeah I know... weird...

Yeah, I have done a heck of a lot of reading on those forums, but given my lack of understanding when it comes to mechanics I've found it pretty tricky to understand what is going on, and what is relative to my bike.

[husaberg]

That would be ideal, but as a pg-student its taken me well over a year to save the measly thousand'ish dollars I have at hand to get the bike on the road as it is... Now that I am back living in the big city it is even harder to put money aside. Pretty depressing when you have a paperweight-could-be-running motorbike, but get round on a 30 year old 10 speed!



Yeah, I have done a heck of a lot of reading on those forums, but given my lack of understanding when it comes to mechanics I've found it pretty tricky to understand what is going on, and what is relative to my bike.

The FZR250 forum has the 400 shop manual.

[lazaah]

The FZR250 forum has the 400 shop manual.

Cheers, got a couple of copies of it now.

[GSF]

http://store.speedandsportinc.com/

I don't know what "year" a 3TJ Fizzer refers to but these guys seem to have some parts for 1988-1990.
They've been pretty useful for getting bits for my SR.

Also CMSNL might be worth a look in?

[sidecar bob]

Personally, I would haul the motor out to Grumph & not even touch it myself, speaking from having an extremely good expierence doing that myself, except I hauled my yzf600's from as far away as Tauranga.
I am a qualified mechanic, but this bloke is in a class of his own with this stuff.

[lazaah]

Personally, I would haul the motor out to Grumph & not even touch it myself, speaking from having an extremely good expierence doing that myself, except I hauled my yzf600's from as far away as Tauranga.
I am a qualified mechanic, but this bloke is in a class of his own with this stuff.

Would you mind explaining why you wouldn't touch it yourself Bob? I have confidence in my friend who is carrying out the work, he is knowledgeable about mechanics and meticulous in his work.

Would just like to say cheers to Rusty for supplying the crank etc. Sounds like work will be started next week. In the mean time I have been tasked with finding a gasket set. Can anyone recommend trusted suppliers?

[Grumph]

Try and avoid Athena sets....and despite the cost the head gsket MUST be OE in my experience. Never struck an aftermarket head gasket for the 400/600 which would last like OE. Clayton at Bob McCleary's for the head gasket.

[Kickaha]

Would you mind explaining why you wouldn't touch it yourself Bob?
It's because he's a lazy cunt :bleh:

[lazaah]

Anyone know how to select bearings based on journal size rather than part number? Seems Yamaha aren't interested in helping out.

[Crank part number is 2222232222] Main crank measurements are 30.482 - 30.490mm and piston/big end measurements are 30.482 - 30.486mm

[Grumph]

Anyone know how to select bearings based on journal size rather than part number? Seems Yamaha aren't interested in helping out.

[Crank part number is 2222232222] Main crank measurements are 30.482 - 30.490mm and piston/big end measurements are 30.482 - 30.486mm

If you've got a manual which gives bearing shell thicknesses for each colour, simply go to the THINNEST shell. Even if OE is right on the smallest shaft tolerance, all it'll do is give you about 4/10 of a thou extra clearance. Get yourself some green plastigauge - see Appco in Sydenham for that - and aim for somewhere around 1.6 thou clearance on the mains and 1.8 thou clearance on the big ends.
Those measurements look like a good crank - second hand ? Did it come with shells ? Have you had it linished yet ?

[lazaah]

If you've got a manual which gives bearing shell thicknesses for each colour, simply go to the THINNEST shell. Even if OE is right on the smallest shaft tolerance, all it'll do is give you about 4/10 of a thou extra clearance. Get yourself some green plastigauge - see Appco in Sydenham for that - and aim for somewhere around 1.6 thou clearance on the mains and 1.8 thou clearance on the big ends.
Those measurements look like a good crank - second hand ? Did it come with shells ? Have you had it linished yet ?

Excellent, means nearly absolutely nothing to me. I will pass the info on to Kai, it is still sitting in his garage, just waiting on me getting the new bearings/shells.

The manual does not have shell thickness indicated, just the colours and how to work out what bearings are needed based on the crank and connecting rod numbers. I only have the crank numbers on hand, so I'll have to get Kai to figure that one out. Are you suggesting ignoring the colour coded selection guide and just getting the thinnest shells, or to use the colour guide to select the correct shells and then purchasing the thinnest of those shells?

The crank is second hand from Rusty, came from an engine which had done a piston (I believe). He gave me a very fair deal. Unfortunately it sounds as those shells/bearings were shagged.

Getting so much closer to having the bike running again. Only been 6 or 7 years. I have a lot of fieldwork based in the backcountry this summer, will be the perfect excuse to spend lots of time on the bike!

[Grumph]

I'm saying ignore the factory code matches and go for the thinnest shells. As i said, it'll gain you only around 4/10 of a thou extra clearance - which is nothing significant. But it does help...Get the crank linished while it's loose, any engine reconditioner can do that, it's just polishing the journals. Worth doing to a used crank to clean up the surfaces.
Kai may still have the colour code info on Yamaha shells - the colour steps thick to thin are the same across all yamaha motors. Can't remember which colour is the thinnest sorry. A good yamaha parts man should be able to tell you.

[Shaun Harris]

I'm saying ignore the factory code matches and go for the thinnest shells. As i said, it'll gain you only around 4/10 of a thou extra clearance - which is nothing significant. But it does help...Get the crank linished while it's loose, any engine reconditioner can do that, it's just polishing the journals. Worth doing to a used crank to clean up the surfaces.
Kai may still have the colour code info on Yamaha shells - the colour steps thick to thin are the same across all yamaha motors. Can't remember which colour is the thinnest sorry. A good yamaha parts man should be able to tell you.



Agreed, and also get the con rods shot peaned to relieve them.

[Grumph]

Agreed, and also get the con rods shot peaned to relieve them.

Not a race bike Shaun....poor student on a budget.

[lazaah]

Not a race bike Shaun....poor student on a budget.

Pretty much!

[Grumph]

If you're in ChCh this weekend - 9/10/11 October, there's a FZR400 powered chopper at the vintage club swap meet for $450. Motor alone is worth that.
I think it's Hughes Motors from the coast. Over the back middle bay at the swap meet site.

[lazaah]

If you're in ChCh this weekend - 9/10/11 October, there's a FZR400 powered chopper at the vintage club swap meet for $450. Motor alone is worth that.
I think it's Hughes Motors from the coast. Over the back middle bay at the swap meet site.

Ahh bummer, probably would of just snapped that up if I had known :(

Finally managed to get hold of Clayton (been trying for three weeks). He said he wouldn't recommend just ordering the thinnest shells and to order by the colour code :/

His reasoning was that because it is a motorcycle engine (i.e. not a morris minor and spins at > rpm), we can't just go putting oversized bearings in an grind down the crank.

Should I just insist he orders the thinnest shells and not take no for an answer?

Thanks in advance

[nodrog]

Yeah I wouldn't listen to Grumph either, I think he's new at this engine building lark.

[sidecar bob]

Would you mind explaining why you wouldn't touch it yourself Bob? I have confidence in my friend who is carrying out the work, he is knowledgeable about mechanics and meticulous in his work.


Because Grumph makes most every other skilled race mechanic I know look expensive & stupid.

[Grumph]

Ahh bummer, probably would of just snapped that up if I had known :(

Finally managed to get hold of Clayton (been trying for three weeks). He said he wouldn't recommend just ordering the thinnest shells and to order by the colour code :/

His reasoning was that because it is a motorcycle engine (i.e. not a morris minor and spins at > rpm), we can't just go putting oversized bearings in an grind down the crank.

Should I just insist he orders the thinnest shells and not take no for an answer?

Thanks in advance

That's the difference between you and me - Clayton doesn't argue with me....i'll ring him and tell him to pull his head in.
That motor was being sold by someone using Hughes Motors, greymouth, transport. Might be worth a ring to find out if it sold


Because Grumph makes most every other skilled race mechanic I know look expensive & stupid.
As well as making them look handsome and polite....

[sidecar bob]

As well as making them look handsome and polite....

That wasn't for me to say.;)

[lazaah]

That's the difference between you and me - Clayton doesn't argue with me....i'll ring him and tell him to pull his head in.
That motor was being sold by someone using Hughes Motors, greymouth, transport. Might be worth a ring to find out if it sold


Cheers Grumph, you help is much appreciated. Hopefully one day I will be able to return the favour!

[lazaah]

Well. It appears Yamaha dealers don't like providing parts you can't give part numbers for. Was advised by Grumph to purchase the thinnest shells available for my engine. Unfortunately, there is no way to actually order the thinnest shells, nor to determine what the thinnest shell is by part size. Shell size is determined by the combination of numbers on the case and pistons, which correlates to a colour code in the workshop manual. So, mechanic has ordered the shells as per the manual.

Fingers crossed they are the appropriate size...

[R1madness]

Gidday.
Does your frame number read 3TJ-14..... IF SO ITS AN SP.
I have a full parts manual for all fzr400 models so it's easy enough to help you find the exact part numbers for the items you need.