View Full Version : Increasing oil capacity?
Looking to increase oil capacity for the sole purpose of stretching out service intervals a little.
What have you guys done?
I see most people fit oil coolers, but have also seen mention of catch cans. They are cheaper and probably an easier fit, but is there a reason why they are not as popular as the cooler in the adv world other than the fact the cooler does two functions?
Would something like this work?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-parts-accessories/performance/other/auction-879933835.htm
That's just an example, might be a bit cheap to risk using that particular one.
I've never looked at anything like this so am completely green to it.
The alternative is something like this, but maybe a little bigger (gunning for 500ml to 1l increase)
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=880216568
I guess a third option would be to add another/external filter.
FJRider
3rd May 2015, 18:04
Looking to increase oil capacity for the sole purpose of stretching out service intervals a little.
Is your intention to save time / money spent on oil changes ... or extend the life span of the engine .. ???
I see most people fit oil coolers, but have also seen mention of catch cans. They are cheaper and probably an easier fit, but is there a reason why they are not as popular as the cooler in the adv world other than the fact the cooler does two functions?
The increase in oil capacity would be minimal by fitting an oil cooler. And I cannot recall any manufacturer of such ... saying an extension of oil change times is advisable.
A simple policy of removing all engine contaminents (metal shavings/condensation etc) at the earliest possible time ... must be to the owners advantage of ensuring a longer engine life.
Regardless of expense and time involved.
tigertim20
3rd May 2015, 18:30
just change the fucking oil
Muzz67
3rd May 2015, 18:45
how-ever, plumbing one in could be difficult. Even if your Raleigh20 has an external oil line to plug into,, will that result in oil starvation at start-up, untill pressure is built up?
Some engine dont have enough capacity (XR500, higher stressed than XR250, same oil capacity) and can be overfilled deliberatly.
Have allways run extra 250ml in my 500's at advice from expert, never had an issue.
I didn't realise a Raleigh 20 needed oil??
Oh, except for the chain...
husaberg
3rd May 2015, 18:53
If you are running an oil cooler and additional oil consider you will not have a thermostat oil can be too cold as well.
Not sure what bike it is, guessing its a trailie see if there is version of the bike that has one std. likely has a different cover oil pump etc possibly crankcase.
There are plenty of cheap cooler kits for Pitbikes. These are likely to be more appropriate in size.
http://img.atomik.com.au/DirtBike/Nitrous140M/Nitrous140M-Part2.jpg
or
http://www.dhz.com.au/buy/hd-radioator-oil-cooler-kit/ENP-22
The XR600 never had a oil cooler like the 250's did as they were dry sumped oil in frame.
The XR250's from about 87 on had nice little oil coolers that were hard to damage.
http://moto.zombiedrive.com/images600_/honda-xr250r-1.jpg
Can't see it
Try here it is under the light bolted to the steering head.
311344
Still can't see it
311345
Just use good oil, it goes longer between changes than cheap oil.
Assuming it's for the 350... I wouldn't worry about it. Just change the oil at regular intervals, I used to do mine at about 3-4k intervals. it was never a problem.
But, if you reeeealy have to bling it out a bit, you could try one of these http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25963157&postcount=5
caspernz
3rd May 2015, 19:33
Personally I'd go for better oil rather than more oil. Changing from a mineral to a synthetic works for some, well that's what I do anyway. Anything involving extra plumbing such as adding an oil cooler just sounds wrong to me.
Fuck, typical BS on here. Somewhere out there, a little toolbox waits for its spanners to return...:motu:
Not reinventing the wheel. You can buy bike $pecific kit$, or better yet smart arses can come change my oil on the side of the road for me, if so make sure you get the pie order right too and wear something purdy :bleh:
Better quality oil is valid, however going from manufactures recommendations and service intervals it should already be in there ;)
how-ever, plumbing one in could be difficult. Even if your Raleigh20 has an external oil line to plug into,, will that result in oil starvation at start-up, untill pressure is built up?
Some engine dont have enough capacity (XR500, higher stressed than XR250, same oil capacity) and can be overfilled deliberatly.
Have allways run extra 250ml in my 500's at advice from expert, never had an issue.
Yeah starvation is an expensive stuff up, that's why I'd rather keep it simple with a catch can or cooler. From my very limited knowledge I know you have to be reallll careful with filter setups when it comes to flow rates and back pressure. Very much above my pay grade :laugh:
One of the coolers on tardme even mentions running their motor dry due to fitting it incorrectly :eek5:
Unless it is plumbed as to cause a bit of an airlock that needs pressure to get oil flowing past the extra oil itself shouldn't cause starting problems.
1L capacity so even a 500ml increase is a big deal.
I was told similar advice on filling the DR too regarding the overfilling a little. Don't do it every change but there must be something to it.
Not sure what bike it is, guessing its a trailie see if there is version of the bike that has one std.
Yeah WR450. Most recommend DRz250 coolers, but that is pretty much the answer for everyone that asks no matter the bike from what my searches have thrown up.
Maybe it's that good, but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask locally.
And that is the smallest oil cooler I've seen, ever. Would it even really make a difference?
Assuming it's for the 350... I wouldn't worry about it. Just change the oil at regular intervals, I used to do mine at about 3-4k intervals. it was never a problem.
But, if you reeeealy have to bling it out a bit, you could try one of these http://advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=25963157&postcount=5
That wee tractor beast is fine :D I got all sorts of toys for it but really it is perfect the way it is for what it is mechanically, although it could use a cooler for the middle of summer to do 100 on the road, but offroad shes fine and it's surprising what dropping 10kph off your pace makes stress wise when the weather is stinking hot.
I didn't realise a Raleigh 20 needed oil??
Oh, except for the chain...
Not much, usually pilfer it from your puddle :D
Gadget1
3rd May 2015, 19:51
Personally I'd go for better oil rather than more oil. Changing from a mineral to a synthetic works for some, well that's what I do anyway. Anything involving extra plumbing such as adding an oil cooler just sounds wrong to me.
Yep and add a long life filter and it's even better.
husaberg
3rd May 2015, 19:52
Yeah WR450. Most recommend DRz250 coolers, but that is pretty much the answer for everyone that asks no matter the bike from what my searches have thrown up.
Maybe it's that good, but figured it wouldn't hurt to ask locally.
And that is the smallest oil cooler I've seen, ever. Would it even really make a difference?
Yes it worked well on the Xr250
The XR400 has one twice as deep.But only half as cute.
Does the WR share the oil with the gearbox.
311350311349
The additional cooling remember comes from the external oil lines and the fact the oil is not always in a hot crankcase.
Put you hand on a crankcase after a ride.
AllanB
3rd May 2015, 20:17
Pretty sure the catch can is not designed to recirculate the oil, just 'catch' the oil that is usually recirculated into the airbox and reburnt.
A mod on some of the old Guzzis was a deeper sump so the engine held more oil.
That wee tractor beast is fine :D I got all sorts of toys for it but really it is perfect the way it is for what it is mechanically, although it could use a cooler for the middle of summer to do 100 on the road, but offroad shes fine and it's surprising what dropping 10kph off your pace makes stress wise when the weather is stinking hot.
Ha, Yeah I thought it was a little weird when you said 1l oil capacity :scratch: You traded up the raleigh 20 on something else then ?
I had to keep a close eye on the oil in the 350 and it was a bastard to check accurately. Could tell by sound when it needed a wee top up though :blink:
kiwibul
3rd May 2015, 21:43
if you are going to fit a cooler plumb it in on the oil return side that way there is no problem with start up,
having extra oil capacity will not increase your service interval, oil will get contaminated or break down at the same rate no matter
the quantity, its the quality of the oil that helps with extending the service interval, my new car has a service every 15000 km
and that's to do with the type of oil its runs.......
hope that helps clear things up
Firstly what are your current service intervals and what do you want to stretch them out to??? Is it a cost factor or time spent doing oil change factor?
I find the old chook chasers one of the most easiest bikes ever to oil change on.
Although I can see benefits of extra oil and cooling in some cases like Martys KTM 530 I think in yours it overkill and best dealt to by using full synthetic and changing less often.
Remember the reason why we change oil? It gets contaminated by petrol and breaks down with exposure to excess heat and it holds dirt sucked past the air filter in suspension so its removed on the drain.
Some of the Aussie roadtrains have a system that siphons off a litre of engine oil every xxxxkm's and blends it with diesel to burn in engine and injects a fresh clean one litre from reserve into engine at same time. This extends service interval and improves fuel economy.
I use Belray Thumper Synthetic and it only stays in the engine for 3000-3500km depending on where the bikes been and filter at same time too.
husaberg
3rd May 2015, 21:59
As an aside there are clutch covers available that would increase the oil capacity try Rekluse.
Rekluse offers clutch covers for many models. Constructed of billet aluminum for increased strength and durability, the clutch cover is deeper than stock to allowing a greater volume of oil in the engine. The cover also allows you to use a stock gasket with the z-Start Pro Clutch instead of the provided thicker gasket.
http://rekluse.mybigcommerce.com/clutch-cover-rms-373-see-description-for-model-fitment/
$159 USD.
if the cover is 150mm dia and is only 5mm deeper that's 40ml if the oil is half way up it.
Thus depending on the set up not sure where the clutch pivot is etc you could make a spacer say 15 mm thicker with Gaskets either side longer bolts.
no worries.:2thumbsup
Yes it worked well on the Xr250
The XR400 has one twice as deep.But only half as cute.
Does the WR share the oil with the gearbox.
311350311349
The additional cooling remember comes from the external oil lines and the fact the oil is not always in a hot crankcase.
Put you hand on a crankcase after a ride.
Yeah shared oil, also has a clutch that produces more heat than standard.
The lines were in my mind when I asked that, as in 'I wonder if it would work the same with just the lines' haha.
Cool that it's effective despite the size though.
Pretty sure the catch can is not designed to recirculate the oil, just 'catch' the oil that is usually recirculated into the airbox and reburnt.
A mod on some of the old Guzzis was a deeper sump so the engine held more oil.
Not 100% sold on it, saw it here http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/915317-extra-oil-capacity-oil-cooler-wr450f/ and it just raised more questions than answering anything. As far as I am aware it's still fitted, and the bikes still running too :laugh:
Not afraid to try something different than the norm, so long as it's not too left field as guinea pigs lead an expensive lifestyle in more ways than one.
Ha, Yeah I thought it was a little weird when you said 1l oil capacity :scratch: You traded up the raleigh 20 on something else then ?
I had to keep a close eye on the oil in the 350 and it was a bastard to check accurately. Could tell by sound when it needed a wee top up though :blink:
You need a couple of minutes spare at the start of the day to do it properly. If it's raining I just check to make sure there is something on there at all and call it good haha
I think anything else is a sidestep from something that simple, but yeah on a trail basis. Bit of a step up in power :eek5:
Ironically I was quite keen on something better on the highway, but slow, while I'm ending up doing rougher and rougher tracks once I got off it at the same time. How the hell do you solve that one :laugh: 250R's look pretty ideal but $$$.
if you are going to fit a cooler plumb it in on the oil return side that way there is no problem with start up,
having extra oil capacity will not increase your service interval, oil will get contaminated or break down at the same rate no matter
the quantity, its the quality of the oil that helps with extending the service interval, my new car has a service every 15000 km
and that's to do with the type of oil its runs.......
hope that helps clear things up
Hmm, if I didn't know you I almost wouldn't believe that haha. Just seems to go against logic that increased capacity wouldn't slow down deterioration. I suppose at the end of the day it's still being circulated at the same rate which may be the key?
Do you guys do oil analysis?
I looked into the long life filters mentioned above (cheers Gadget) but can't find any applicable to the WR. I have a metal reusable one for another bike if that's what you mean, but I've been using paper filters instead of it for some reason I can't remember..
Gadget1
3rd May 2015, 22:37
I looked into the long life filters mentioned above (cheers Gadget) but can't find any applicable to the WR. I have a metal reusable one for another bike if that's what you mean, but I've been using paper filters instead of it for some reason I can't remember..
The metal filters (stainless) provide cooling as well:http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/yamaha-wr-450f-oil-filter-stainless-steel-moto-flow
The metal filters (stainless) provide cooling as well:http://www.motoxparts.co.nz/p/yamaha-wr-450f-oil-filter-stainless-steel-moto-flow
I looked up that filter and I'm curious as to where the heat goes in this alledged cooling process. Heat doesn't flow from one hot place to another hot place.
Add in the factor of there usually being a rubber o-ring at either end of the filter and it being submersed in oil internally inside the crankcase it just doesn't make sense...
jonbuoy
4th May 2015, 06:39
I donīt know if its the cost or the hassle of oil changing that's putting you off - but you can get some small hand pumps that would fit in your luggage to suck most of the oil out of the engine - still leaves all the crap at the bottom though. You could suck out the majority of the oil and do a full change every other time.
unstuck
4th May 2015, 07:53
Asking advice on KB............:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::weird:
Night Falcon
4th May 2015, 08:56
Firstly what are your current service intervals and what do you want to stretch them out to??? Is it a cost factor or time spent doing oil change factor?
I find the old chook chasers one of the most easiest bikes ever to oil change on.
Although I can see benefits of extra oil and cooling in some cases like Martys KTM 530 I think in yours it overkill and best dealt to by using full synthetic and changing less often.
Remember the reason why we change oil? It gets contaminated by petrol and breaks down with exposure to excess heat and it holds dirt sucked past the air filter in suspension so its removed on the drain.
Some of the Aussie roadtrains have a system that siphons off a litre of engine oil every xxxxkm's and blends it with diesel to burn in engine and injects a fresh clean one litre from reserve into engine at same time. This extends service interval and improves fuel economy.
I use Belray Thumper Synthetic and it only stays in the engine for 3000-3500km depending on where the bikes been and filter at same time too.
The only reason I forked out for one on the 530 (and they aint cheap) was its split oil system. The engine side only has 600mls of oil; absolutely fine for an EXC's intended use but I wanted a bit more oil life for longer adventure riding. The HTR oil cooler almost doubles the engine side oil capacity. The gearbox side holds 900mls so isn't a problem.
ducatijim
4th May 2015, 09:30
Dang.....
Can you believe the crap some folk want to waste their short lives worrying bout?:weird:
I donīt know if its the cost or the hassle of oil changing that's putting you off - but you can get some small hand pumps that would fit in your luggage to suck most of the oil out of the engine - still leaves all the crap at the bottom though. You could suck out the majority of the oil and do a full change every other time.
The hassle and time of doing it mid trip. Even if you doubled the service interval with double the oil....it would still cost you the same. On that token even with double the oil I'd be happier with 1.5x the interval, which would cost more.
A 1L oil change in itself isn't a pain. I used to do 9L every 5000km in my last vehicle. That was a pain, especially when I spilled it on a 2 day old concrete driveway, but it wasn't on the side of the road potentially every second day while I was fanging around.
Recommended interval is 1000km, some people do it every 5 hours or 500kms and valves at 1000kms. I wouldn't even make it to Dunedin. I don't know how some people manage to commute on these sorts of bikes.
It's an incredibly popular thing to do, I guess mainly overseas, but doing something different with a bike is not anything new.
I bet all of the negative/lazy comments are from people who have changed multiple things from how their bike came factory. Pack racks aren't factory, carrying luggage is not specifically designed for 90% of bikes. Bubble screens, race modifications, heated grips, different seats, changing the suspension. Get over it.
The only reason I forked out for one on the 530 (and they aint cheap) was its split oil system. The engine side only has 600mls of oil; absolutely fine for an EXC's intended use but I wanted a bit more oil life for longer adventure riding. The HTR oil cooler almost doubles the engine side oil capacity. The gearbox side holds 900mls so isn't a problem.
Yep same boat here. I don't feel like it's being pedantic as once it's done it's done and you have piece of mind. The HTR is still easily cheaper than a rebuild!
Split oil is better imo, then you can get two oils that are specifically good at their two different tasks rather than one all rounder.
I have seen some trick ones that are built into bash plates but the HTR is one of the coolest designs I reckon. Obviously the downside is they are very bike specific, and only KaTooMs?
That said I'm going to look into what kiwibul said regarding the quantity not really making a difference. If that is the case then there is no point in touching it, just live with it and tick it up as one of the cons of running engines that are strung a bit tight on the road as well as off.
Asking advice on KB............:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::weird:
I still have faith that it can improve. A lot of old 'tech' threads around that aren't full of people posting to see their own avatar that are still handy. This section is usually pretty good as a rule :niceone:
I probably don't help by being prickly and coming off as a bit of a long winded know all cunt, but I have enough friends :laugh:
Night Falcon
4th May 2015, 11:35
Dang.....
Can you believe the crap some folk want to waste their short lives worrying bout?:weird:
that's the point.....once its sorted you'll find you don't worry about it at all......but if you look, and not very hard, you can always find another worry or two to replace the oil one.......will adjusting the clickers really be enough or should I get heavier fork springs :brick:
Gadget1
4th May 2015, 11:52
that's the point.....once its sorted you'll find you don't worry about it at all......but if you look, and not very hard, you can always find another worry or two to replace the oil one.......will adjusting the clickers really be enough or should I get heavier fork springs :brick:
Playing around with set ups etc is all part of the fun.
Simple.
Just use one of these extended cast alloy finned sumps. They only cost $100 but you do have to fit an extension to the oil pump pick up pipe which is a bit of a pain but easily done with a little easyflow.
The other great thing is they are finned so help to keep the oil colder.
311357
Grumph
4th May 2015, 13:56
I went to the seminar when the first 425/450 came out - and was very surprised at the short change intervals recommended.
I raised the point of a customer riding to an event, as i knew of a couple who would do it. It was suggested they change oil at the lunch break....
FWIW my own suggestion is increase the capacity by inserting an additional tank between the existing oil in frame tank and the motor. If the add tank is below the frame one, it'll feed the pump just fine. finding room could be a problem though.
What we were told was that the steering head bearings MUST use high melting point grease - as it is attatched to the oil tank area which gets ferking hot....
jonbuoy
4th May 2015, 18:18
Strange with that short of an interval they donīt make it easier with a quick drain valve or something. Shame these donīt come in smaller sizes:
http://www.stahlbus-us.com/oil-drain-valve/oil-drain-valve/
I bet all of the negative/lazy comments are from people who have changed multiple things from how their bike came factory. Pack racks aren't factory, carrying luggage is not specifically designed for 90% of bikes. Bubble screens, race modifications, heated grips, different seats, changing the suspension. Get over it.
I bet we just think you're wasting good dino juice doing it that often.
CrazyFrog
4th May 2015, 20:26
The hassle and time of doing it mid trip. Even if you doubled the service interval with double the oil....it would still cost you the same. On that token even with double the oil I'd be happier with 1.5x the interval, which would cost more.
A 1L oil change in itself isn't a pain. I used to do 9L every 5000km in my last vehicle. That was a pain, especially when I spilled it on a 2 day old concrete driveway, but it wasn't on the side of the road potentially every second day while I was fanging around.
Recommended interval is 1000km, some people do it every 5 hours or 500kms and valves at 1000kms. I wouldn't even make it to Dunedin. I don't know how some people manage to commute on these sorts of bikes.
So from what I can gather, this oil dilemma is for a WR450? or 250? Or some other high performance 4 stroke enduro bike?
Speaking as a KTM RFS owner, you can easily stretch out oil changes from 1000km to 2000km IF you are dual sporting, ride frequently mid rev range on the highway, and generally taking it a bit easier on the motor. As far as the valve checks go, learn how to do them properly, and it's only a 15min job (on a cold bike).
Yes, the enduro/racing boys will change oil every 5 hrs, but try and remember, they are revving the fuck out their motors on a regular basis while either racing or trail riding the snotty stuff, so the oil quality breaks down faster. If you're dual sporting, use good synthetic oil and be happy knowing that highway cruising speed on tarmac offers better oil cooling, so less oil degradation.
Don't bother pissing around retro fitting an oil cooler your machine, if it hasn't been done by other dual sporters before. Google it and ask the specific question relevant to your bike. Just plan to change your oil to suit your longer trip itinerary, and factor it in as part of the experience.
Anyway, you won't want to ride a chook chaser non stop to Dunedin, unless your arse is made of steel :laugh:
I rode my EXC from TeAnau to Nelson, did it over 3 days and changed oil once. And my arse has never forgiven me for it.
I bet we just think you're wasting good dino juice doing it that often.
Wasn't meaning your oil comment, but fair call.
As an aside there are clutch covers available that would increase the oil capacity try Rekluse.
Thus depending on the set up not sure where the clutch pivot is etc you could make a spacer say 15 mm thicker with Gaskets either side longer bolts.
no worries.:2thumbsup
Yeah got that cover, there is room for a spacer though. Nice idea :niceone:
So from what I can gather, this oil dilemma is for a WR450? or 250? Or some other high performance 4 stroke enduro bike?
Speaking as a KTM RFS owner, you can easily stretch out oil changes from 1000km to 2000km IF you are dual sporting, ride frequently mid rev range on the highway, and generally taking it a bit easier on the motor. As far as the valve checks go, learn how to do them properly, and it's only a 15min job (on a cold bike).
Yes, the enduro/racing boys will change oil every 5 hrs, but try and remember, they are revving the fuck out their motors on a regular basis while either racing or trail riding the snotty stuff, so the oil quality breaks down faster. If you're dual sporting, use good synthetic oil and be happy knowing that highway cruising speed on tarmac offers better oil cooling, so less oil degradation.
Don't bother pissing around retro fitting an oil cooler your machine, if it hasn't been done by other dual sporters before. Google it and ask the specific question relevant to your bike. Just plan to change your oil to suit your longer trip itinerary, and factor it in as part of the experience.
Anyway, you won't want to ride a chook chaser non stop to Dunedin, unless your arse is made of steel :laugh:
I rode my EXC from TeAnau to Nelson, did it over 3 days and changed oil once. And my arse has never forgiven me for it.
450. The more I've read the more I've seen the comments regarding stretching them out. Out of interest I might push it out to 1500 first and get an oil analysis done (I'm assuming their near as cheap in NZ as the states) and see what they say. Just for interests sake rather than a KB Mk II eyeball test.
I've seen a few more tid bits around about how the increased capacity doesn't do anything for oil quality anyway as mentioned earlier so increasing it might be moot for that reason anyway. More would just be good for cooling it seems, but as you touched on unless I'm flogging it everywhere or bore it out it shouldn't be a worry.
It has been done before, there is a specific kit for it that costs a body part, but if I was going to spend that much I'd be putting a rear brake on the handle bar first.
Seat doesn't bother me once your arse is broken in haha. I did an 11 hour day on the DR the first week I got it, that hurt a bit but from then on it was fine. I switched to a gripper cover that was even better after that. Don't know about others but I find if you stretch out and sit right near the back of the seat when you're slabbing it things are much more comfortable.
This one has a seat concepts seat which is nice, probably a fair trade off compared to a bruised ass, but I don't like that it's wider for when you need to put your feet down.
Cheers for all the info peoples. Good to learn something new.
Well I'm 1000k deep from the weekend including a good few K's on an MX track and the oil is still looking pretty good :yes:
Strange with that short of an interval they donīt make it easier with a quick drain valve or something. Shame these donīt come in smaller sizes:
http://www.stahlbus-us.com/oil-drain-valve/oil-drain-valve/
There will be something out there that will do that in a smaller size I bet, but just not marketed for use on vehicles or something.
I donīt know if its the cost or the hassle of oil changing that's putting you off - but you can get some small hand pumps that would fit in your luggage to suck most of the oil out of the engine - still leaves all the crap at the bottom though. You could suck out the majority of the oil and do a full change every other time.
Yep, I use turkey baster syringe things (because the Vet things I'm a junkie and won't give me any of theirs) for that sort of thing. Only 250ml or so per hit but comes in handy for all sorts.
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