Tiptoeing around

[red675]

Fed up arriving precariously at the lights or destination on tiptoes and over trying to out-think the designer by changing linkage geometry, I made an air-powered seat so I could drop a couple of inches when desired. Maiden voyage went beautifully until some Wally left his side road without permission, then I discovered brain overload put dropping the seat down the priority list. Obviously I needed to automate this bit.

So I added circuitry that instigates the process every time I slow down below walking speed while retaining manual control over rise and fall using a left hand operated switch (discounting a foot operated switch after I found my feet left the pegs for numerous reasons I hadn’t previously envisaged). My insurers must already be as Happy as Larry (given the risk of a stationary fall is already way down on before) but to improve things further I’m planning a ride to Wellington to see what that throws up in terms of scenarios I haven’t envisaged. Filtering is currently my biggest concern, so if anyone’s been there and done that I’d welcome the benefit of their greater wisdom before setting off....

[jellywrestler]

Fed up arriving precariously at the lights or destination on tiptoes and over trying to out-think the designer by changing linkage geometry, I made an air-powered seat so I could drop a couple of inches when desired. Maiden voyage went beautifully until some Wally left his side road without permission, then I discovered brain overload put dropping the seat down the priority list. Obviously I needed to automate this bit.

So I added circuitry that instigates the process every time I slow down below walking speed while retaining manual control over rise and fall using a left hand operated switch (discounting a foot operated switch after I found my feet left the pegs for numerous reasons I hadn’t previously envisaged). My insurers must already be as Happy as Larry (given the risk of a stationary fall is already way down on before) but to improve things further I’m planning a ride to Wellington to see what that throws up in terms of scenarios I haven’t envisaged. Filtering is currently my biggest concern, so if anyone’s been there and done that I’d welcome the benefit of their greater wisdom before setting off....

wicked idea man, how do you refill it, by farting?

[Maha]

....or more simply, just add 25mm to the sole of your shoes.

[50Shades]

Brilliant for the vertical challanged

[Paul in NZ]

You should patent that...

[Laava]

Clever, well done!

[5ive]

Cool idea, I would have just let some air out of the tyres.

[TheDemonLord]

Good shit - I had this problem with some bikes - I have short legs and some of the seat heights are too high for me

[baffa]

I always pictured Demon lords being tall and imposing.

The seat must be uber cumfy when full inflated

[5ive]

I always pictured Demon lords being tall and imposing.

The seat must be uber cumfy when full inflated

Having short legs doesn't make you short, you should see him when he spikes his hair!

[AllanB]

Innovative idea. In the world of electronically controlled steering dampers, suspension, traction control etc etc how the F did the big factories not thing of this for their adventure bikes?

[TheDemonLord]

I always pictured Demon lords being tall and imposing.

The seat must be uber cumfy when full inflated

One does not necessarily obtain lordship by physical attributes alone ;)

[Erelyes]

The seat must be uber cumfy when full inflated

I'll say, air suspension for the ass when trucking along, to drop down to a firm base at the lights.

Fantastic work, patent it like someone else said.

Is it by way of an air insert in the squab, or some sort of bladder stuck on the top? Or an air/hyro actuated bracket that lifts the mount?

[liljegren]

....or more simply, just add 25mm to the sole of your shoes.

no piont adding 25mm to your heels, need it at your toes!

[T.W.R]

Nice idea for the vertically challenged, similar to the comfort control on some Goldwings

[pritch]

no piont adding 25mm to your heels, need it at your toes!

The people I know who added height by starting at the bottom had it done to both sole and heel. They'd be forever walking up hill otherwise. :whistle:

[red675]

Nice idea for the vertically challenged, similar to the comfort control on some Goldwings

now that's something I missed when doing my Google research (which didn't throw up anything similar) - what exactly is Comfort Control a la Mr Honda ?

[red675]

....or more simply, just add 25mm to the sole of your shoes.

I tried thicker soles (and heels as I didn't want to walk downhill all the time)
and dropping the pre-load (front and rear)
and a lighter rear spring
and longer drop links (dog bones in the rear suspension)
and raising the front forks
and less foam in the seat
most of the above made the bike handle worse or lost ground clearance

the only one that worked was the thicker soles but they're out of fashion and hard to find

[T.W.R]

now that's something I missed when doing my Google research (which didn't throw up anything similar) - what exactly is Comfort Control a la Mr Honda ?

Some of the earlier Goldwing models (mid 80s) had comfort control built into the seats (think the Aspencade model etc) that was a series of air bladders controlled by the on board air compressor (also used for the suspension too) :yes: . It'd be fairly standard item these days.
There are aftermarket items like AirHawk cushions for them too :oi-grr:

Just did a quick google (http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwingstuff.com%2Fproducts%2F27286-air-hawk-seat-cushions&ei=R2dSVaCBKqa0mwXYo4CgDA&usg=AFQjCNHyH-arWGa0iWc5I0t_sg0PSEi6oA&bvm=bv.92885102,d.dGY)

[Devil]

I think you need to mentally get over the perceived need to have both feet on the ground. One solid foot is worth at least 3 tip toes :P

Seriously, get used to one foot down and you can ride anything. You have complete control over which foot goes down just by giving the bars a gentle tweak as you stop. It really is that simple.

[roogazza]

311836

xxx

[MarkH]

You just need the right technique!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRFyw57o_Ic

[Big Dog]

I tried thicker soles (and heels as I didn't want to walk downhill all the time)
and dropping the pre-load (front and rear)
and a lighter rear spring
and longer drop links (dog bones in the rear suspension)
and raising the front forks
and less foam in the seat
most of the above made the bike handle worse or lost ground clearance

the only one that worked was the thicker soles but they're out of fashion and hard to find

Any good boot repairer could add half an inch to your existing soles without any drama.
I have had some trimmed down for opposite reasons, but I had 1/2 an inch added to an ex's boots. Boot maker (the guy under the escalators in the mall in New Plymouth 20 years ago) said it was cheapest / easiest to do when replacing a sole but any sole can be lifted off and a layer of cushioning grade sole in 1/4 1/2 or whole inch thicknesses to any combination to reach the height that is required.
Most common in someone wanting one leg longer but why not two legs longer?

Ex had to adjust foot controls to suit but no different to walk in. Just Half an inch taller.
Was the equivalent to taking about 2 inches out of the ride height at less than 10% the cost of a seat.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[nzspokes]

Fed up arriving precariously at the lights or destination on tiptoes and over trying to out-think the designer by changing linkage geometry, I made an air-powered seat so I could drop a couple of inches when desired. Maiden voyage went beautifully until some Wally left his side road without permission, then I discovered brain overload put dropping the seat down the priority list. Obviously I needed to automate this bit.

So I added circuitry that instigates the process every time I slow down below walking speed while retaining manual control over rise and fall using a left hand operated switch (discounting a foot operated switch after I found my feet left the pegs for numerous reasons I hadn’t previously envisaged). My insurers must already be as Happy as Larry (given the risk of a stationary fall is already way down on before) but to improve things further I’m planning a ride to Wellington to see what that throws up in terms of scenarios I haven’t envisaged. Filtering is currently my biggest concern, so if anyone’s been there and done that I’d welcome the benefit of their greater wisdom before setting off....

Where and how do I pay for one?

[PrincessBandit]

You just need the right technique!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRFyw57o_Ic

Hahaha, now that's something else! I would never have dreamt of doing my bicycle mount and dismount for my motorbike! (I ended up going for the platform buildup on my boots...)

As a vertically challenged person (at least my leg length is in proportion to the rest of me, height-wise anyway) I've always been happy as long as one foot is able to be flat on the ground, even if the other ends up being a bit tippy toe. The problem for me is that if my bike starts to tip while stationary it takes a great deal of will power and focus to stop it getting to the point of no return whether my feet are both on the ground or not! The worst was hurricane like winds in Wellywood on one of our SI jaunts and we had to keep stopping due to not being able to find the entrance to our motel (didn't match the GPS). I was almost crapping myself over every horrendous blast of wind as hubby, who was in the lead on his fat-ass burgman, kept stopping in such a way that I was always broadside to it :angry2: On the other hand maybe I just need more muscles rather than longer legs??

[red675]

I think you need to mentally get over the perceived need to have both feet on the ground. One solid foot is worth at least 3 tip toes :P

Seriously, get used to one foot down and you can ride anything. You have complete control over which foot goes down just by giving the bars a gentle tweak as you stop. It really is that simple.

my problem is BOTH feet are on TIPTOE and that's on the level, trying to get the thing vertical if I park on too steep a camber is Mission Impossible, there is no technique that's going to compensate for that (unless of course BMW have an approved way of leap-frogging the thing into the middle of the road)

So I made a solution that works. Apparently it has been done before (see other posts) though I'm struggling with how short you'd have to be to have the same problem with a Gold Wing or Suzuki Burgman that I have with an adventure bike

[red675]

Where and how do I pay for one?

it's cost me around $1k but that included a lot of prototypes and also a lot of learning how to do things well enough (plastic welding, leak free seeming, building logic circuits using electrical relays and using a really sharp knife free-hand)

[Ocean1]

There are aftermarket items like AirHawk cushions for them too :oi-grr:

A friend has one on his BMW1200S. In fact it's been on all of his last few bikes.

Fucking horrible things, feels like you've shat in your nappies and have to sit in it all day.

[nzspokes]

it's cost me around $1k but that included a lot of prototypes and also a lot of learning how to do things well enough (plastic welding, leak free seeming, building logic circuits using electrical relays and using a really sharp knife free-hand)

I think you missed my point. When can you make me one and how much?

Can you make it work on a bike with a mechanical speedo?

[T.W.R]

A friend has one on his BMW1200S. In fact it's been on all of his last few bikes.

He must think it's OK if he's had it only his last few bikes & current one :rolleyes:


Fucking horrible things, feels like you've shat in your nappies and have to sit in it all day.

Just another average day at the retirement home huh?

[nzspokes]

He must think it's OK if he's had it only his last few bikes & current one :rolleyes:



Just another average day at the retirement home huh?

We have one, good for the pillion. Sucks for the rider. If you are a rider that moves around on the bike a bit you will hate it.

[T.W.R]

We have one, good for the pillion. Sucks for the rider. If you are a rider that moves around on the bike a bit you will hate it.

:confused: lol I'm not promoting them and definitely not something I'd use myself :no:
Did too many kms on a bike with the proverbial church pew for a seat so anything with a bit of padding these days is a luxury & don't have any issues getting the shanks on the ground...actually more of the reverse folding the buggers up onto the pegs :yes:

[Ocean1]

He must think it's OK if he's had it only his last few bikes & current one :rolleyes:



Just another average day at the retirement home huh?

Oh he does. I wouldn't be surprised if the deviant bastard paid someone else to shit in his nappies.

[varminter]

Do you ride in them carpet slippers?

[red675]

I think you missed my point. When can you make me one and how much?

Can you make it work on a bike with a mechanical speedo?

The bike I made it for is a Tiger 800 - I used the signal from the road speed sensor mounted on the top of the transmission and had a backup plan to use the ABS sensor on the rear wheel (the bike has one or other of these but not both, so I retrofitted the road speed sensor so I could have the choice. I'm guessing yours is something older so a magnetic front wheel speedo sensor could be retrofitted but it's pointless guessing : what kind of bike are you talking about ?

To be honest with a bit of practice I could probably do without the auto actuation, but I'm thinking that making a system without that protection would be completing only half the job. Be nice to talk to you about it as there haven't been any constructive suggestions thus far.

[nzspokes]

The bike I made it for is a Tiger 800 - I used the signal from the road speed sensor mounted on the top of the transmission and had a backup plan to use the ABS sensor on the rear wheel (the bike has one or other of these but not both, so I retrofitted the road speed sensor so I could have the choice. I'm guessing yours is something older so a magnetic front wheel speedo sensor could be retrofitted but it's pointless guessing : what kind of bike are you talking about ?

To be honest with a bit of practice I could probably do without the auto actuation, but I'm thinking that making a system without that protection would be completing only half the job. Be nice to talk to you about it as there haven't been any constructive suggestions thus far.

Here is a thought. If we were to fit a full quickshifter could it say work or inflate when the bike went to second?

I have a specific application in mind here.

[Big Dog]

I would have thought you would want to activate it off of the clutch (with a pause to ignore shifts) or off a neutral?

It seems like a thousand dollar solution to a $50 problem so I was was keen to not seem disrespectful.

If you are dead set on this as an answer or are looking to develop these for sale it might pay to look at what the wheel chair guys in the states do with activating training wheels under various conditions and apply that to your seat?
There are as many setups a there are people with problems. From the thumb activated ( rules out any logic issues as long as the rider is switched on ) to the fancy pants run by a rasberry pi compares throttle use, speed, clutch and brake to actuate according to rules. E.g applying rear brake only, only activate if speed drops below 5 km. handy for trail braking to not have a change in seat tension. If clutch and brakes are both pulled for 2 or more gear changes compress to allow either foot to go down quickly etc.

I guess you need to decide what level of user input do I want vs what am I happy to hand over to my rig? Now how do I make that happen inside my budget?
I am not a fan of these kind of mods but like the fact you are giving it a go.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[T.W.R]

Just adapt the principles of Citroen's Hydropneumatic suspension system

Link to the basic overview (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citroenet.org.uk%2Fmiscellane ous%2Fhydraulics%2Fhydraulics-1.html&ei=fTpTVYb5CJfh8AXM0oHgCw&usg=AFQjCNGUc_Dp-CqGGBDle0-z-JY_KvEWFg&bvm=bv.93112503,d.dGc)

[red675]

I would have thought you would want to activate it off of the clutch (with a pause to ignore shifts) or off a neutral?

It seems like a thousand dollar solution to a $50 problem so I was was keen to not seem disrespectful.

If you are dead set on this as an answer or are looking to develop these for sale it might pay to look at what the wheel chair guys in the states do with activating training wheels under various conditions and apply that to your seat?
There are as many setups a there are people with problems. From the thumb activated ( rules out any logic issues as long as the rider is switched on ) to the fancy pants run by a rasberry pi compares throttle use, speed, clutch and brake to actuate according to rules. E.g applying rear brake only, only activate if speed drops below 5 km. handy for trail braking to not have a change in seat tension. If clutch and brakes are both pulled for 2 or more gear changes compress to allow either foot to go down quickly etc.

I guess you need to decide what level of user input do I want vs what am I happy to hand over to my rig? Now how do I make that happen inside my budget?
I am not a fan of these kind of mods but like the fact you are giving it a go.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.
thanks, that's just the kind of response I was looking for - some things to ponder on. At this point I still figure forward speed is the determinator for actuation as I can't see anyone wanting to put load through their boots unless the bike is at rest or close to it. Just one point on the money side of things, the $1000 spent was never the intended cost of a single item, but then $50 wouldn't come close either.

[red675]

Just adapt the principles of Citroen's Hydropneumatic suspension system

Link to the basic overview (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEEQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.citroenet.org.uk%2Fmiscellane ous%2Fhydraulics%2Fhydraulics-1.html&ei=fTpTVYb5CJfh8AXM0oHgCw&usg=AFQjCNGUc_Dp-CqGGBDle0-z-JY_KvEWFg&bvm=bv.93112503,d.dGc)

what is it about Citroen's Hydropneumatic suspension system ??? It wasn't that good or it would have been copied by now by everyone and all over the place, but you keep coming across people who swear it beats sliced bread

[red675]

Here is a thought. If we were to fit a full quickshifter could it say work or inflate when the bike went to second?

I have a specific application in mind here.

so a DB5 inspired ejector seat or a vertical launch mechanism for a Jetpack which would save the cost of being dropped from a plane ???

[Maha]

what is it about Citroen's Hydropneumatic suspension system ??? It wasn't that good or it would have been copied by now by everyone and all over the place, but you keep coming across people who swear it beats sliced bread

Gimmick, they pop up (pun intended) from time to time in the mechanical world. If there is no real advantage/merit in an idea, it basically stays a gimmick.

[nzspokes]

so a DB5 inspired ejector seat or a vertical launch mechanism for a Jetpack which would save the cost of being dropped from a plane ???

No. But good idea.

My partner is a bit disabled after a crash. We are building a bike to suit her needs. One problem we will have is getting the seat low enough for her to hold the bike. But if we do that we run out of lean angle. Your seat idea could help with this.

[Big Dog]

thanks, that's just the kind of response I was looking for - some things to ponder on. At this point I still figure forward speed is the determinator for actuation as I can't see anyone wanting to put load through their boots unless the bike is at rest or close to it. Just one point on the money side of things, the $1000 spent was never the intended cost of a single item, but then $50 wouldn't come close either.

The concern linking it purely to speed is that things that are unsettling can really put you off your game when emergency braking.
What I mean is: a seat suddenly deflating could change several characteristics while you are already braking hard. 2 inches seat height might not amount to much or it could have a dramatic effect on your perception of the event.

Before I embarked on any sort of lengthy test ride I would want to compare my braking distances with the seat enabled and disabled. An extra foot or two might be still be acceptable knowing the characteristics such as carrying a pillion means an extra 5-10% braking distance but I might chose to take one anyway and ride accordingly.
Is that better or worse on gravel?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[red675]

No. But good idea.

My partner is a bit disabled after a crash. We are building a bike to suit her needs. One problem we will have is getting the seat low enough for her to hold the bike. But if we do that we run out of lean angle. Your seat idea could help with this.

I'm truly sorry to hear that.
I lowered the seat base relative to the top of the frame as far as it would go (stole another 15mm that way) and then to be fair the maximum lowering I could achieve was limited to the thickness of the original seat which in my case was 60mm - so what's achievable is strongly linked to the geometry of the bike you start with. If you prefer you can PM me with the details and maybe send me some pictures but at some point it'll need measuring it or something like it to see what scope there is for improvement.

[red675]

The concern linking it purely to speed is that things that are unsettling can really put you off your game when emergency braking.
What I mean is: a seat suddenly deflating could change several characteristics while you are already braking hard. 2 inches seat height might not amount to much or it could have a dramatic effect on your perception of the event.

Before I embarked on any sort of lengthy test ride I would want to compare my braking distances with the seat enabled and disabled. An extra foot or two might be still be acceptable knowing the characteristics such as carrying a pillion means an extra 5-10% braking distance but I might chose to take one anyway and ride accordingly.
Is that better or worse on gravel?


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I'm setting it up to actuate as I pass down through 4mph (walking speed) - by that point most of the serious braking will be over unless someone's coming the other way .... in which case the ejector seat idea has some appeal
you've got me thinking though that the rate of fall needs to be slowed down a bit as it currently takes about one second

[T.W.R]

what is it about Citroen's Hydropneumatic suspension system ??? It wasn't that good or it would have been copied by now by everyone and all over the place, but you keep coming across people who swear it beats sliced bread

:facepalm: helps pygmys get in & out of the cars so could be applied to what you're looking for :yawn:

"the Citroën system relies on an engine-driven pump to pressurise the hydraulic system and it is this power source which enables self-levelling, variable ride height, assisted jacking and zero roll (in the Activa Xantia) and also allows for fully powered braking systems and power steering too."

http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars/psa/xm/images/xmupdown.gif

sure there's plenty of custom cars out there that have copied the principle :shit:

[nzspokes]

I'm truly sorry to hear that.
I lowered the seat base relative to the top of the frame as far as it would go (stole another 15mm that way) and then to be fair the maximum lowering I could achieve was limited to the thickness of the original seat which in my case was 60mm - so what's achievable is strongly linked to the geometry of the bike you start with. If you prefer you can PM me with the details and maybe send me some pictures but at some point it'll need measuring it or something like it to see what scope there is for improvement.

At some stage I would like to see your setup. Bike is at bare frame stage and I have to complete the one before it first. That wont take long, month or two.

There is plenty of room in the frame to play with, and being steel any mods to the frame are also easy. Will need to mount some quickshift gear but I doubt that will take much room. Also going to move the battery from under the seat to under the carbs to get the weight lower so that makes more room as well. Any extra things I need to add I would want low in the bike to keep the top weight down.

[red675]

https://youtu.be/isIYwP7d8QA