Unbelieveable Courage.

[Lou Girardin]

The British crew of the Warrior AFV in Basra who refused to fire on or drive through a crowd of people even though they were bring drenched with Molotov cocktails.
The Poms can be a bit 'different' at times but their basic humanity can never be questioned.
These guys have a hell of a lot to be proud of.

[bugjuice]

I'm surprised they didn't panic and floor it.. would have been so easy to nail a few and drive the fuck out of there. But they choose to preserve human life, and bail out, to the hail of stones and bats.. fukin brave soldiers alright..
And those fucks who thru the cocktails and rocks probably never stopped to think how easy it would have been to have opened/returned fire

[Sniper]

I won't comment as the true story will never be heard.

[mikey]

if i were in the tank i would of ran the sand niggers over or used the machine gun on em, its what its there for,

but if i were in the mob id be biffing rocks an thehonkies cause they be invading my land.

lucky not everyones like me i guess.

[Marknz]

I won't comment as the true story will never be heard.

interesting statement given you probably know nothing about the situation

[Paul in NZ]

I won't comment as the true story will never be heard.

Well it won't if everyone takes that attitude... :killingme

Or perhaps you have the book / tv rights.... Hmmm.. Interesting...

[Biff]

Say what you like about the Brits - but you wont find a better trained more experienced fighting force anywhere in the world.

[Sniper]

Say what you like about the Brits - but you wont find a better trained more experienced fighting force anywhere in the world.

Exactly! And the reason I won't comment is because the Media always alters the story and the Army will never divulge why action was not taken so :nya:

[Lou Girardin]

Exactly! And the reason I won't comment is because the Media always alters the story and the Army will never divulge why action was not taken so :nya:

The video was quite convinvcing enough. Multiple firebombs landing all over the Warrior, but mainly on the turret. The driver tried to move forward, but stopped rather than go through the crowd. The turret remained trained ahead, no rounds were fired.
Eventually the crew bailed out.
if you do hear the true story, can you post it here.

[Sniper]

The video was quite convinvcing enough. Multiple firebombs landing all over the Warrior, but mainly on the turret. The driver tried to move forward, but stopped rather than go through the crowd. The turret remained trained ahead, no rounds were fired.
Eventually the crew bailed out.
if you do hear the true story, can you post it here.

I won't hear why they never fired and why they didn't run the skinnys over. And you know what, Im not too fazed either. :motu:

[mstriumph]

I'm proud of the soldiers
---- not proud of the stone-throwers ...

but as always one's viewpoint depends on where one stands

[jahrasti]

The British crew of the Warrior AFV in Basra who refused to fire on or drive through a crowd of people even though they were bring drenched with Molotov cocktails.
The Poms can be a bit 'different' at times but their basic humanity can never be questioned.
These guys have a hell of a lot to be proud of.

Those guys could have sat in the warrior untill the rest of the troops got there as the petrol bombs wouldn't get through the armour .
They aren't the professionals you think they are and lastly they can't arc up the locals as they are still under civil law even while over there.(Take some of the charges laid to brit soldiers in Ireland over the years)

[TwoSeven]

The British crew of the Warrior AFV in Basra who refused to fire on or drive through a crowd of people even though they were bring drenched with Molotov cocktails.
The Poms can be a bit 'different' at times but their basic humanity can never be questioned.
These guys have a hell of a lot to be proud of.

I suspect they will probably be up on charges shortly. From memory I think your not supposed to leave the vehicle in that particular situation.

Those things are fire proof, so I suspect the driver stalled the engine and the crew panicked. Still wait and see what happens I guess.

[Sniper]

My be fire proof but its still made out of fucken steel. Jesus, a bit of common sense would go a long way here!! Sure, stay in the vehicle and be cooked alive. Those things get fucken hot when theres a fire on top of them. Or one of the hatches may have been left open and a molotov got in so that why they had to evac.

The crew may be put on charges IF it was deemed stupid to leave the vehicle. But from what I saw, it was a case of self preservation so they wouldn't be CM'ed for that.

[bugjuice]

I suspect they will probably be up on charges shortly. From memory I think your not supposed to leave the vehicle in that particular situation.

Those things are fire proof, so I suspect the driver stalled the engine and the crew panicked. Still wait and see what happens I guess.
The news said they bailed for fear of the heat causing their rounds to explode. And it'd be like an oven in there on the best of days - remember what country they are in. Being on fire isn't really gonna help things, and I'm sure the last thing they really wanted was to jump out into the hail of stones and fire bombs being thrown, but they obviously calculated that they had a better chance bailing out than staying put

[jahrasti]

[QUOTE=Sniper]My be fire proof but its still made out of fucken steel. Jesus, a bit of common sense would go a long way here!! Sure, stay in the vehicle and be cooked alive. Those things get fucken hot when theres a fire on top of them. Or one of the hatches may have been left open and a molotov got in so that why they had to evac.

I dont want to sound like a cock but the hull and turret are steel yes but have spaced armour (kevlar,laminates)and internal fire fighting systems if flames got in.If the crew bail out then they have to disable the vehicle and take all sensitive items with them so the A-rabs cant get them,lastly armoured vehs should always work in at least pairs the same way one person cant be expected to see/do everthing samesame with armour.

[Sniper]

I dont want to sound like a cock but the hull and turret are steel yes but have spaced armour (kevlar,laminates)and internal fire fighting systems if flames got in.If the crew bail out then they have to disable the vehicle and take all sensitive items with them so the A-rabs cant get them,lastly armoured vehs should always work in at least pairs the same way one person cant be expected to see/do everthing samesame with armour.

True they do have laminates ect in them, but that does not stop the heat from a fire coming in. And if those did have a internal fire fighting system, it would have done fuck all to stop a molotov as most molotovs are petroleum based and therefore would just make matters worse.

I worked on our LAVs and M113's so I know how they are built and where their weaknesses are. I won't admit to being an expert on ALL armoured vehicles but they all relate to one another.

[scumdog]

I'm proud of the soldiers
---- not proud of the stone-throwers ...

but as always one's viewpoint depends on where one stands

Notice how many of the stone throwers were just kids, sub-teenage a lot of them,what kind of future do those sorry buggers have??

And notice the crew bailing out were on fire as they did so.

The actions of the crew in the circumstances was VERY restrained!!

[geoffm]

True they do have laminates ect in them, but that does not stop the heat from a fire coming in. And if those did have a internal fire fighting system, it would have done fuck all to stop a molotov as most molotovs are petroleum based and therefore would just make matters worse.
.

Depends on what fire suppression system they use. I suspect if one is fitted, it is a gaseous system like Inergen, which can put out the fire without suffocating the occupants.
Geoff

[Sniper]

Depends on what fire suppression system they use. I suspect if one is fitted, it is a gaseous system like Inergen, which can put out the fire without suffocating the occupants.
Geoff

You would be surprised at what systems they use. The M113 is quite out of date and only uses a water system with 14l of water.

[oldrider]

Pom's have got a Labour Govt too. They probably would have had to go back to the stores and fill in a request for ammunition and wait two weeks for it to arrive, before they could fire their weapons. Think of the paper work involved if they had. They would have to enlist for three more years to finish the job. Socialism, don't ya just love it?

I respect all those guy's over there British, Australians and Americans, the whole bloody lot. Personally, rather than politically. We should all show them more respect, they do the shit job for our long term benefit.
Don't think for one minute that the muslims will be nice to us if we be nice to them. They would still hate westerners even if we had never left our own shores. If you think anything else you are fucking dreaming. Rant over, John.

[SPman]

Don't think for one minute that the muslims will be nice to us if we be nice to them. They would still hate westerners even if we had never left our own shores. If you think anything else you are fucking dreaming. Rant over, John.
Well - the Forces over there have done a damn fine job of engendering the hate. Even the pro westerners just want EVERYBODY out of their country. And that includes the other shit stirring Arabs who are taking advantage of the situation. There is a faction who hate westerners - just as there is a faction of westerners who hate muslims. But, by staying there for 2 years as a force of occupation, the (predominantly) US forces have put Iraq almost back to the stone age! The country is now fucked, the general populace live from hand to mouth, day by day, in constant fear for their lives, corruption in high places is endemic and once again the general populace bear the major brunt of violence. hatred, starvation - you name it! If I was an Iraqui youth, I'd be throwing fucking molotov cocktails at ANY fuckin foreigner in the country - and that includes Saudis and Iranians!!!
Rant not over until they're all out and Iraq can recover - over the next 20 yrs!
And its great, that soldiers do have an ounce of humanity in this situation - good for them!

[oldrider]

I left a key word out of my last post. "Extremists" (Muslim) The rest I stand by.
Western troops are in a catch 22 situation. Can't stay. Can't leave. Most of the hate has been extended by the Muslim Clerics who will be some what disenfranchised by democracy. Myself I feel deeply for all the individual people involved. Have you ever experienced the wrath of a frenzied mob. I have and it is the only time I have ever been truly afraid for my life. Cheers John.

[SPman]

Have you ever experienced the wrath of a frenzied mob. I have and it is the only time I have ever been truly afraid for my life. Cheers John.
Yes I have! Truly scarey!
Cheers
Jon

[jimbo600]

Actually what happened (not seen by the tv crew but I have it on reliable authority) is that they were preparing for an exfil plan but the commander noticed that his K5 Gixxer thou was about to fall off its side stand and rushed out to save it.

[SPman]

Now, thats more like it, Boyo.!!
A REAL reason..........
Priorities - gotta have priorities,,,,,,,,

[boomer]

The British crew of the Warrior AFV in Basra who refused to fire on or drive through a crowd of people even though they were bring drenched with Molotov cocktails.
The Poms can be a bit 'different' at times but their basic humanity can never be questioned.
These guys have a hell of a lot to be proud of.

Agreed. I don't agree on the reason(s) for being there just like NI but i would have let rip and and seen how fast i could have put the baby into first, reverse, first, reverse and then done a few 360's to boot.

;)

[TwoSeven]

The news said they bailed for fear of the heat causing their rounds to explode. And it'd be like an oven in there on the best of days - remember what country they are in. Being on fire isn't really gonna help things, and I'm sure the last thing they really wanted was to jump out into the hail of stones and fire bombs being thrown, but they obviously calculated that they had a better chance bailing out than staying put

The problem with that, is that those machines are fully air conditioned and ventilated. Watching the reversing maneuver indicated that the driver was in a state of panic.

Judging by the way the commander left the vehicle, it was he who panic'd first - the driver would have probably had to later because the CO left his hatch open.

[Indiana_Jones]

I would of done whatever was needed to protect my vechicle and crew, sod what the world or media thinks. I would come before any dickwad chucking shit at me. I'd try to disperse them, but then I'd have to use force :bash:

-Indy

[Kickaha]

Actually what happened (not seen by the tv crew but I have it on reliable authority) is that they were preparing for an exfil plan but the commander noticed that his K5 Gixxer thou was about to fall off its side stand and rushed out to save it.


Thats as good a guess as any other on here, the only people who know what the real situation and reasoning for their actions are the crew and I doubt they'll be posting on here to tell us

[Sniper]

The problem with that, is that those machines are fully air conditioned and ventilated. Watching the reversing maneuver indicated that the driver was in a state of panic.

Judging by the way the commander left the vehicle, it was he who panic'd first - the driver would have probably had to later because the CO left his hatch open.

They may be so, but that still won't quench the heat of a few molotovs on top of you. Especially with vents that just allow MORE heat in unless they were ordered to close them for fear of fire getting in.


Thats as good a guess as any other on here, the only people who know what the real situation and reasoning for their actions are the crew and I doubt they'll be posting on here to tell us

Exactly what I was trying to say but I get ridiculed for it. Funny that????

[Lou Girardin]

It seems that the obvious has been missed. The options the crew did not choose were to drive through or fire on the crowd. By doing so, they would have been home free.
That indicates a lot of respect for life.
The rest is irrelevant.

[TwoSeven]

The commander of the vehicle has admitted to panicing on a BBC news interview. Although the interview is unclear on how he caught fire in the first place - seems he may have been standing in the hatch when he got caught by the first firebomb. Also, it indicates they returned to the vehicle later.



"My back was on fire, down the back of my arms and part of my face," Sergeant George Long, of the Staffordshire Regiment, told the BBC.

"It was basic panic, I needed to get out of (the armoured vehicle's) turret and get the flames put out.

"I checked my gunner was being dealt with, then got back into the turret, stayed there to carry on with the public disorder."

[Sniper]

The commander of the vehicle has admitted to panicing on a BBC news interview. Although the interview is unclear on how he caught fire in the first place - seems he may have been standing in the hatch when he got caught by the first firebomb. Also, it indicates they returned to the vehicle later.


Panic is just human nature. Good on them for admitting it.

[mstriumph]

......................... rant not over until they're all out and Iraq can recover ...........

Too right.
But Service personnel go where they are sent, do what they are told ... it's what they signed up to do.

And i really wonder how many of those in Iraq have serious problems with the politics that sent them there/keep them there .........

and i wonder if i could fight a war [sorry 'peacekeeping action'] that i didn't believe in for masters whose motives i despised...

and i feel so sorry for the front-liners caught up in this mess.

[Biff]

Pom's have got a Labour Govt too.

Not to be confused with anything resempling the Labour party here though OR. The Labour party in the UK (renamed New Labour just before gaining power all those years ago) are far more right wing than our Labour party.

[Motohaus]

You go were you are sent and u will never know the situation unless you are there brave or not you are there to do your job that is what you are trained for and preservation of your team and to achecve your abjective
Too right.
But Service personnel go where they are sent, do what they are told ... it's what they signed up to do.

And i really wonder how many of those in Iraq have serious problems with the politics that sent them there/keep them there .........

and i wonder if i could fight a war [sorry 'peacekeeping action'] that i didn't believe in for masters whose motives i despised...

and i feel so sorry for the front-liners caught up in this mess.

[Sniper]

Those quoting rules and regs from the army have been watching too much TV.

Sure, you go where you are sent and do what you are told......... Within reason! In the occasions that I was away on exercise (And one time that I wasn't) we all had the option of bailing out if things got too hot. If you did, there was no court martial, no fines imposed. You just had to live with the fact that your fellow peers judge you on your desision and the day the shit hits the fan, you need to know if they are going to count on you, or frag you for someone else.

[mstriumph]

dunno about the NZ Army ---- but it wasn't encouraged in the RAF?

[Lou Girardin]

Too right.
But Service personnel go where they are sent, do what they are told ... it's what they signed up to do.

And i really wonder how many of those in Iraq have serious problems with the politics that sent them there/keep them there .........

and i wonder if i could fight a war [sorry 'peacekeeping action'] that i didn't believe in for masters whose motives i despised...

and i feel so sorry for the front-liners caught up in this mess.

Read "The Soldiers Story" by Terry Burstall for a true perspective of what it's like to realise you've been lied to and seen your mates die for nothing.

[Sniper]

Read "The Soldiers Story" by Terry Burstall for a true perspective of what it's like to realise you've been lied to and seen your mates die for nothing.

That book was proven to have outside influences. :doh:

[Lou Girardin]

That book was proven to have outside influences. :doh:


All books have outside influences. Kennedy's "Profile in Courage" didn't have any Soviet heroes in it.
McNamara never said that the Vietnam war was wrong either.
I enjoy books from different perspectives, any propaganda soon becomes obvious.

[TwoSeven]

Panic is just human nature. Good on them for admitting it.

Not in the british army its not - its a matter of pride. Personally, if someone bailed, I suspect the rest of their squad might give them a good kicking.

Still, the pommie army hasnt released a press statement on it yet (only on the related incident with the specops).

[Sniper]

Not in the british army its not - its a matter of pride. Personally, if someone bailed, I suspect the rest of their squad might give them a good kicking.

Still, the pommie army hasnt released a press statement on it yet (only on the related incident with the specops).

You know that most the pommy army are poofta's now? (No offence Biff). They would proberbly get a telling off and a kiss.

[mstriumph]

no-one's taking the bait, Sniper :blah:

but being alternative, sexually speaking, need be no bar to a taste for mayhem ----- as i understand it the ancient greeks used to send pairs of homosexual lovers into battle side by side [figuring that each would fight more bravely etc etc ]

personally i'm dubious if the pair in the flat below me when i first arrived in Wellington were anything to go by ---- they were far too busy trying to kill each other [the whole 6 months i was there!] to have anything left over for anyone else .....

[El Dopa]

Well, according to this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1575439,00.html

The hatches were open becuase the periscopes had already been smashed, and the petrol bomb got in past the guy standing in the top hatch.

[Sniper]

Well, according to this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1575439,00.html

The hatches were open becuase the periscopes had already been smashed, and the petrol bomb got in past the guy standing in the top hatch.

And thats what I said might have happened........... :eek5:

[TwoSeven]

That sounds like a more plausible story, but I still have the problem with armoured glass in the scopes being busted. Sods law says that the hatch was left open when it shouldnt have been, a fire bomb got lobbed in, it filled up with smoke and they panic'd because its a tankers worst nightmare being burned alive in a tin can.

[Biff]

You know that most the pommy army are poofta's now? (No offence Biff).

Farcough! That's the worlds finest fighting force you're talking about there.

Trust me mate, you wouldn't even consider approaching your senior officer in the Brit army telling him you don't want to go where you're being told that you are going. Instant prison & court martial in most cases. Far too risky having a jelly fish being sent on a mission. Those sorts are weeded out during the initial 13 week 'square bashing'.

Alledgedly.

[Sniper]

Farcough! That's the worlds finest fighting force you're talking about there.

Trust me mate, you wouldn't even consider approaching your senior officer in the Brit army telling him you don't want to go where you're being told that you are going. Instant prison & court martial in most cases. Far too risky having a jelly fish being sent on a mission. Those sorts are weeded out during the initial 13 week 'square bashing'.

Alledgedly.

Don't worry, I was just fishing. I admire the way event the welsh rigorously protect the british army. They are by far one of the best and most experienced fighting forces in the world. Not as good as NZ, but close!

[Pixie]

True they do have laminates ect in them, but that does not stop the heat from a fire coming in. And if those did have a internal fire fighting system, it would have done fuck all to stop a molotov as most molotovs are petroleum based and therefore would just make matters worse.

I worked on our LAVs and M113's so I know how they are built and where their weaknesses are. I won't admit to being an expert on ALL armoured vehicles but they all relate to one another.
If all you need to disable a military vehicle is to set fire to it ,I think there are a lot of sucker governments paying millions of bucks for junk

[Sniper]

If all you need to disable a military vehicle is to set fire to it ,I think there are a lot of sucker governments paying millions of bucks for junk

You underestimate the power of a mob AND a scout vehicle.

[jrandom]

If all you need to disable a military vehicle is to set fire to it ,I think there are a lot of sucker governments paying millions of bucks for junk

true, covering many light armored vehicles in flaming gasoline would most likely reduce their effectiveness. you have to get it on there first, though.

and its therefore a truism that armor is worth much less in urban environments than it is in open terrain. every tankers worst nightmare is a bunch of guys on foot popping out from around a corner without warning toting explosives and incendiaries.

in the desert there are no corners.

I refer you to the progress of the allies in normandy in 1944. ability of german infantry to dig in around the bocage made painfully slow progress with foot infantry in the lead a necessity and somewhat stymied the initial strategic advance plan.

hence the doctrine of mutual support between armor and infantry. Rommel had it all figured out 70 years ago.

tanks are at their best with room to move.

hasnt changed too much from the old horse calvalry days, really. choose a tool that fits the job.

[MisterD]

If all you need to disable a military vehicle is to set fire to it ,I think there are a lot of sucker governments paying millions of bucks for junk

Did you see the interview with the crew how cool and understated? The Warrior was retrieved and was pretty much ok but "A bit hot to the touch"....

[Lou Girardin]

I refer you to the progress of the allies in normandy in 1944. ability of german infantry to dig in around the bocage made painfully slow progress with foot infantry in the lead a necessity and somewhat stymied the initial strategic advance plan.


Until they fitted the Shermans with glorified hayrakes made from railway iron to the front and ploughed through the hedgerows.
Still had to face the 88's though.

[Ixion]

true, covering many light armored vehicles in flaming gasoline would most likely reduce their effectiveness. you have to get it on there first, though.

and its therefore a truism that armor is worth much less in urban environments than it is in open terrain. every tankers worst nightmare is a bunch of guys on foot popping out from around a corner without warning toting explosives and incendiaries.

in the desert there are no corners.

I refer you to the progress of the allies in normandy in 1944. ability of german infantry to dig in around the bocage made painfully slow progress with foot infantry in the lead a necessity and somewhat stymied the initial strategic advance plan.

hence the doctrine of mutual support between armor and infantry. Rommel had it all figured out 70 years ago.

tanks are at their best with room to move.

hasnt changed too much from the old horse calvalry days, really. choose a tool that fits the job.


Gee, respect. Not many chicks are that clued up on matters military :love: You must be exceptional :innocent:

[Ixion]

Don't worry, I was just fishing. I admire the way event the welsh rigorously protect the british army. They are by far one of the best and most experienced fighting forces in the world. Not as good as NZ, but close!

They always have , since Longshanks brought 'em to heel. Remember Agincourt ?

[Biff]

Remember Agincourt ?

Where the Welsh archers invented the V (f off) sign, because the French would attempt to catch the Welsh archers, recognised to be the largest threat that faced their forces, and when they did catch a Welsh archer they'd chop his two fingers off in order to ensure he couldn't use a bow again.

[jrandom]

:love: You must be exceptional

yup, I'm a special bloody specimen all right.

[Sniper]

yup, I'm a special bloody specimen all right.

Got the coat to prove it? :lol: