Kb'ers lend me your keyboards

[mada]

Some of you may have heard about 7EFTS and medical students in the media over the last few days. This thread is to give some background and insight into the issue and hopefully convince some of you to share and sign this petition:

https://www.change.org/p/minister-of-tertiary-education-skills-and-employment-remove-the-7-year-student-loan-cap-for-medical-students

Background:

The Minister of Education Steven Joyce has implemented a policy on student loans which sets a cap of 7 years as the maximum amount of years one can borrow for (7EFTS). This policy was intended to prevent students who were changing between degrees, often failing, and often not completing one in a field that would result in them getting a job at the end - people considered to be "career students".

The policy certainly has it's merits, and seems fair given the government is operating on a tight ship and student debt is significantly high running into the billions. But this policy will impact negatively on the medical field which is why medical students are seeking an exemption for their qualification from the cap (rather than getting rid of the policy entirely).

Studying Medicine

Medicine is the longest degree and arguably one of the hardest degrees to complete in NZ. It requires six years of full time study, it is not possible to complete it in a shorter amount of time, unlike other programmes study cannot be undertaken part time or over summer school.

Entry into medicine is via two pathways - first year Biomedicine or Health Science, or as a Postgraduate. For the first year option, the majority of these students are straight out of highschool and they need to score a GPA of 8.0+ (so on average A to A+ in 8 papers) approximately 1300 students aim for this alone at Auckland University.

Postgraduates however can get entry with a slightly lower GPA but need to have completed certain Science core papers with very good grades. They still need to have a very high GPA (B+ to A+)

Every student needs to meet the high academic requirements to apply for selection. Selection is then based on a review of ones academic performance in conjunction with panel interviews of applicants. Out of 600 - 700 selected Auckland Uni takes about 260 students each year. Of which one third are postgraduates.

The University likes to take a lot of these students as they are more mature, have more life experience and social skills than their younger "first year peers" but are also more likely to come from diverse backgrounds, lower socio-economic areas, and more likely to work in high needs areas, as GP's, and in rural areas - where we have significant shortages. Many of these students have already contributed to the medical and scientific fields through medical related research.

In many other countries (for example US) postgraduate entry is the only way to get into medicine.

So why the issue?

Most postgraduates have already completed 3 years of study minimum (for example someone who has completed a Bachelor in Health Sciences, Biomedicine, Physiology etc). Some have completed more (if they have done honours/masters etc).

As stated previously one third of medical students are post-graduates - so with the 7EFTS they can only borrow up until that cap. Many students are now faced with the prospect of trying to some how find money to fund their last or other years of study (fees = $15,000 per year).

If they could take a gap year off they would, but that is not possible as the government funds medicine based on "places" per year of intake, so the Universities are strict on how many students are studying at a particular year.

Steve Joyces view:

The Minister says that students should be able to borrow from other sources to pay for the study for example: bank loan, family, or from their 6th year internship, and says "they'll be fine as they earn the most of any graduates anyway". However these suggestions are unrealistic and OIA's show the minister knows for a fact that no bank will loan to students to complete a degree. The majority of students families do not have a spare $15,000 lying around to pay for each year, and to qualify for the 6th year internship one has to actually pay their $15,000 per year fee's first! And the last point about getting paid heaps when they graduate - if they don't pay fees, they cant study, then cant graduate, then cant be doctors to pay back the loan!!!

Left vs. Right?

This is not really an issue of left vs right politics. Yes politicians from opposition parties are making a fuss (Labour, Greens, NZFirst), and yes many of you will point me out as a rabid lefty - however the Young Nats have also put their voices behind the call for a reconsideration by the Minister. Our cohort and many postgraduate students themselves are involved in political groups of both sides.

Why care?

From my point of view, I care about my colleagues obviously. But also from a patients perspective - having people from a diverse background results in better outcomes for diverse communities and like I said these students are more likely to be more mature, work in harder/more high needs areas etc. If the cap remains in place, then it is likely to go back to the days of only rich kids getting into med school (because they can afford to go to the good schools, and get the $50 per hour private tutoring which is required to get a GPA of 8-9 in first year).

But even for you as a taxpayer, you are getting ripped off. Each year millions of your taxes are invested into our training, with a significant subsidy of our fees. If hundreds of these students don't graduate as doctors - your money is going down the gurglar and its more likely that in the not too distant future you will be faced with staff shortages and in turn a poorer quality of care. By giving them an exemption, it is not likely they are going to abuse it, medical school has one of the lowest failure rates and once they graduate they will pay off the loan within a couple of years.



To give you some perspective - a lot of you older ones would have heard of Fred Hollows - the kiwi legend who helped restore sight for thousands of people all over the world.

http://www.hollows.org.au/sites/default/files/images/Indigenous/4x3/FH70-79_005_4x3_0.jpg

Hollows actually completed a BA before studying medicine at Otago. So if he was having to study medicine today, he would be affected by the 7EFTS and most likely wouldn't have been able to afford to graduate and become a doctor and go onto make such an impact like he did.

Cheers for your time.

Ride hard.:scooter:

[Akzle]

you need to one paragraph tldr.

[mada]

you need to one paragraph tldr.

For those who prefer audiovisual

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/medical-students-law-change-leave-us-in-limbo-video-6320985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pN8_-L3qRc&index=1&list=PLjkJUO3mhB0e13_pwK1n3ZFl6ekvyCYh2

[Akzle]

For those who prefer audiovisual

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/medical-students-law-change-leave-us-in-limbo-video-6320985

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pN8_-L3qRc&index=1&list=PLjkJUO3mhB0e13_pwK1n3ZFl6ekvyCYh2

no.
A one paragraph summary.
To decide whether i cbf reading the rest.

[mashman]

no.
A one paragraph summary.
To decide whether i cbf reading the rest.

FFS bogan, leave Akzle's account alone eh.

[nodrog]

What the fuck?

[DR Girl]

Thanks for that Mada. Have just signed the petition and added a comment.
Appreciate your explanation :yes:

[Autech]

A friend of mine was forced to study in China as a result of this policy (which I support in principle) as he was no longer able to borrow any more. Becoming a Doctor sure is hard!

[Katman]

Medicine is the longest degree and arguably one of the hardest degrees to complete in NZ.

I believe Veterinary Science is longer.

(Although I suppose it could be claimed that it's still to do with medicine).

[mashman]

Signed.


no.
A one paragraph summary.
To decide whether i cbf reading the rest.

Govt's bringing in legislation to cap the number of years a student will be allowed to be a student and have access to student loans. In other words, if you've done 2 years as a teacher but have found your calling in medicine, you won't be able to get a student loan to finish off your medical degree... meaning that many simply won't be able to afford to become what they wish.

Should be close enough :)

[bogan]

Signed. Good cause.


you need to one paragraph tldr.

That'd be the background bit at the top.

[Reckless]

you need to one paragraph tldr.


What the fuck?

Well that post sorts out the men from the boys :nono: Guess who failed the test :killingme




I have a Med student at home here, my son. Doing a double psychology degree this year and a Sat job.
I already told him no amount of studying will let him understand his mother or women in general, but hey??? LOL.
Jokes aside: No board, home and food are free :) He works hard, has lots of dead lines they are not negotiable about.

But I don't disagree with the cap, stops the professional student ripping off the system (and his parents).
If they lighten up on the special grant at the end of it to get you through the last year or so this would work.
Special grant to be based on results and dedication to the coarse.

All they need to do is loosen the reigns at the end for the ones who have put the effort in and it will work.

[Erelyes]

Govt's bringing in legislation to cap the number of years a student will be allowed to be a student and have access to student loans. In other words, if you've done 2 years as a teacher but have found your calling in medicine, you won't be able to get a student loan to finish off your medical degree... meaning that many simply won't be able to afford to become what they wish.

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

[bogan]

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

There's some good points there. But with a 7ETS cap you can swap between 2 or three lesser degrees as you find your calling, but if your calling is a longer one it's tough shit? that doesn't seem right. I'm all for performance based loan eligibilty btw, but perhaps that is another can of worms...

[Swoop]

I believe Veterinary Science is longer.

(Although I suppose it could be claimed that it's still to do with medicine).
Yes, 7yrs Vs 5yrs.
But... then the doctors claim they then have to "specialize" after the 5yrs.



... stops the professional student ripping off the system.
I wonder where the labour party will get its future ministers from?:scratch:

[caspernz]

I wonder where the labour party will get its future ministers from?:scratch:

Fighting with the Green party for the dropouts at the end of the funded learning curve?

[mada]

I believe Veterinary Science is longer.

(Although I suppose it could be claimed that it's still to do with medicine).

Yeh it used to be the same length of time (5 years) in the old days. Vet's are still 5 years at Massey.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learning/programme-course-paper/programme.cfm?prog_id=92611

Medicine now though is 6 years minimum.The first year is not really a "year of medicine". It involves a foundation of Chemistry, Biomedicine etc, but is used to academically filter people wanting to get into medicine - because Auckland Uni alone has 1,300 people each year trying to get a place. If you do well enough and pass interviews you are given a spot on the medical programme and officially start your medical degree in your second year.

Postgrad's who get entry into second year only have to do "5 years" if they have completed the first year core papers in biomedicine, chemistry, etc in their undergraduate degree. If they haven't completed these they will need to complete them (takes 1 year) so end up doing 6 years.

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/study-options/programmes/undergraduate/6469/bachelor-of-medicine-and-bachelor-of-surgery-mbchb

While we are making a big stink about medicine, it's because we are the larger group affected but we do hope that other fields such as Dentistry, Veterinary Science, Pharmacy can be subject to an exemption too as they also receive high numbers of skilled postgraduates.

And to clarify all these degrees are subject to the cap because they are "Undergraduate".

If a student was to complete a Bachelor of Science majoring in Physiology, they could spend a further 7 years undertaking Postgraduate, Masters, and PhD study - they would not be affected by the cap as studying Postgraduate upwards allows a cap at 10 years.

[mada]

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

Yeh like I said there is merit to a cap. And Students are well aware of the costs, to get into medicine you cant be someone who is mucking around at Uni.

You can't actually get into medicine if you have partially completed a degree in something else (so the teacher example is flawed). In that case the person would need to graduate as a teacher, and have high enough grades to get selected for an interview. If they were good in the interview they would get a "provisional place" subject to completing some chem, bio, papers etc.

The majority of students we are talking about are ones who have completed qualifications that are highly relevant to medicine practically - Bachelor in Science Physiology & Anatomy, Microbiology, etc. These degrees take 3 years, 4 years if one is really switched on and does Honours.

They can study and get student loans for another 7 years! - but only if they do postgraduate, masters, or PhD.

30% of all students are postgrad. So you are looking at 100s potentially up to 1000 students by 2017/2018 affected. Multiple that 1000 by the $50,000 that the taxpayer invests in each one of us per year of study = how much taxpayers money will be wasted if these students cant afford to pay the fees and then graduate.

The problem with paying us for our work experience in 5th year and 6th years is that it is weekly over the year, whereas fees need to be paid upfront at the start of the year.

[Banditbandit]

Multiple that 1000 by the $50,000 that the taxpayer invests in each one of us per year of study = how much taxpayers money will be wasted if these students cant afford to pay the fees and then graduate.


It's not that much for all degrees. Many are around the $11,000 to $12,000 per year ... Science and medicine are funded at higher rates ...

You can see this year's Government funding rates by discipline area here.

http://www.tec.govt.nz/Resource-Centre/Rates-categories-and-classifications/SAC-Rates/2015-SAC-funding-rates/

Add to that Student Fees (which are initially funded by the taxpayer) and you get the amount that each institute gets. Fees vary from institute to institute ..

[mada]

Yes, 7yrs Vs 5yrs.
But... then the doctors claim they then have to "specialize" after the 5yrs.



I wonder where the labour party will get its future ministers from?:scratch:

Close, vets = 5 years (but 7 years in some circumstances if they are international students).

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learning/programme-course-paper/programme.cfm?prog_id=92611&tab=plan#entrant-type

Med students = 6 years minimum (refer to other post). One does not even begin to think of "specialising" until they have graduated and have worked for a number of years in hospitals. Each speciality requires you to undertake different on the job training ("runs") in different fields while in the hospital.

It usually takes about 9 - 15 years of working to become a specialist!

[Banditbandit]

Add to the issue the number of people who leave school early and then come back to tertiary education later in life. They frequently go into the bridging courses, that can take up to one year of study, then if they pass everything on a degree first time round they will have completed their degree in four years, using up four of their allocated seven EFTS. If they fail something and have to repeat, they could have used five EFTS or more.

That lets them only two or three years for any post grad or other study they might want to do.

[mada]

It's not that much for all degrees. Many are around the $11,000 to $12,000 per year ... Science and medicine are funded at higher rates ...

You can see this year's Government funding rates by discipline area here.

http://www.tec.govt.nz/Resource-Centre/Rates-categories-and-classifications/SAC-Rates/2015-SAC-funding-rates/

Add to that Student Fees (which are initially funded by the taxpayer) and you get the amount that each institute gets. Fees vary from institute to institute ..

Cheers for that link. :niceone:

Med 2 and 3 year = $36,139 per year

Med 4 year up to 6th year = $42,622 per year. - this is where most postgrad students will meet their cap.

So if I did a 4 year BSc (with honours) then began studying medicine (entered into 2 year). My 4th year would be the last year I could borrow. The government would have subsidised me by $100,000+ for medicine alone (2nd year + 3rd year + 4thyear), and my student loan from medicine alone would be $45,000 (each year we pay about $15,000 in fees).

Total cost to taxpayer = $145,000 if student doesn't graduate and excludes previous degree.

[Akzle]

I have a Med student at home here... psychology degree

lmfao.

med ≠ psy

[Swoop]

Close, vets = 5 years (but 7 years in some circumstances if they are international students).

Close. Kiwi born and bred, straight A student completing a vet degree (via Massey). 7 years.

[mada]

Close. Kiwi born and bred, straight A student completing a vet degree (via Massey). 7 years.

Good on ya,
You sure you not getting confused between undergraduate degree and then post graduate that may follow? - post grad study is not affected by 7EFTS and is capped at 10EFTS.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learning/programme-course-paper/programme.cfm?prog_id=92611&tab=plan#phases

As everything on the Massey website says 5 years undergrad (including semester 1 selection). (maybe their changing it?)

Would be keen to know as I have some friends (not studying) who are considering getting into it.

[mashman]

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

Sweet...

Shooting oneself in the foot/cutting nose off to spite face/not having anyone to diagnose herpes/insert medical punalogy of choice?

Fair enough. True in regards to not understanding the value of money and what it gits ya. See above though, from the perspective of students going to uni fully expecting that in order to really afford it and be of responsible benefit to the cuntry, they will stop enjoying themselves, booze/fags/hookers etc... whilst they study for 7 years? Yeuk. (then 5 years, then 2, then human robots heh heh heh).

It's a shit pressure to have. See above, from the perspective of, fucking your shit up shit can happen at any time and having $ troubles lumped on top of that's really fuckin brutal. That and it may prevent the learning that was gained from being added to when shit is unfucked again... see above?

It is a harsh reality that there will be negative effects on individuals and potentially on wider society when there are cutbacks going on. Trickle down. Question: Would you choose to risk losing the money or choose to risk losing the person (wider concept: hope, will, drive etc...) and knowledge?

[ruaphu]

Done the petition, nice one mada.

My two cents
It's just another block in the wall to separate the 'have everythings' from the 'have nots'

Basically this is how I interpret the BS the minister is actually saying here .........

"If ya got the cash, all cool. However if ya don't, then fuck off"

Knowledge economy my R'se.

It's discrimination in disguise at the end if the day as far as I'm concerned.

Have a nice day ya'll :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swoop]

Good on ya,
No, not me! I've turned down two degree courses.

A friends kid has done the Vet training.

[Drew]

Hmmm. Let them have longer loans, IF they can't work overseas for a minimum of ten years.

I hate student loans. Most don't get paid back. If I'm paying for everyone elses education now, fuck it I'd rather keep that and pay my kids fees personally.