Different/unusual chassis

[Mental Trousers]

There's a thread on different/unusual engines so I thought I'd start one on different chassis.

Ray Van Steenwyk has come up with a different take on hub centre steering.

All of the suspension is moved behind the wheel (in the attachment it's the red bits) while the triangle that holds the front wheel is rigid front to rear but the top part twists to steer (blue bit).

It has more steering lock than other hub centre steer designs because the swing arm is mounted high on the frame leaving more clearance for the wheel.

Looks like the biggest problem with it, other than complexity and space it takes up, is that they're eliminating the weight transfer involved with braking but weight transfer means grip. That's one of the fundamental differences between cars and bikes, the weight transference. Not understanding that is why many before, such as the Elf GP bikes, have failed.

313150

https://www.motoinno.com.au/home.html

[T.W.R]

Looks like a modern re-vamp on the V H Concept CHS from the early 90s

Hans Gunter Helms & Klaus Vosteen called it 'Thigh Axle' concept
minimised constructural complexity compared to existing designs at the time and fully adjustable

[husaberg]

There's a thread on different/unusual engines so I thought I'd start one on different chassis.

Ray Van Steenwyk has come up with a different take on hub centre steering.

All of the suspension is moved behind the wheel (in the attachment it's the red bits) while the triangle that holds the front wheel is rigid front to rear but the top part twists to steer (blue bit).

It has more steering lock than other hub centre steer designs because the swing arm is mounted high on the frame leaving more clearance for the wheel.

Looks like the biggest problem with it, other than complexity and space it takes up, is that they're eliminating the weight transfer involved with braking but weight transfer means grip. That's one of the fundamental differences between cars and bikes, the weight transference. Not understanding that is why many before, such as the Elf GP bikes, have failed.


https://www.motoinno.com.au/home.html

funny front ends generally don't work commercially because they are different.

I like this one best. Pretty sure it was based on an Aprilia bike.

I am sure the older readers can remember this i don't know his last name but at the time it was super trick.
I am not sure how the the rear suspension works because it looks sideways in the pic but not mentioned in the blurb.

Some will know who Sean is I bet?:rolleyes:

[Mental Trousers]

funny front ends generally don't work commercially because they are different.

Conservative attitudes are one of the problems for the funnies. But those can be overcome if one were to start winning at the highest level, as long as the rules weren't changed to ban them of course.

One of the biggest problems though is trying to treat bike chassis dynamics like a cars, eliminating weight transfer being the worst mistake. Controlling weight transfer is good, but eliminating it means less grip on the limits no matter how well the design improves grip. In the end improving grip and behaviour + weight transferring forward = even more grip.

Old school hub centre steering, the 1921 Ner-A-Car

http://www.bikeexif.com/1921-ner-a-car

[husaberg]

Conservative attitudes are one of the problems for the funnies. But those can be overcome if one were to start winning at the highest level, as long as the rules weren't changed to ban them of course.

One of the biggest problems though is trying to treat bike chassis dynamics like a cars, eliminating weight transfer being the worst mistake. Controlling weight transfer is good, but eliminating it means less grip on the limits no matter how well the design improves grip. In the end improving grip and behaviour + weight transferring forward = even more grip.

Old school hub centre steering, the 1921 Ner-A-Car

http://www.bikeexif.com/1921-ner-a-car

Yes I am familiar with it.
I have ridden bikes with leading links and other front ends such as earles etc. They used to rise under braking lol
I think what they missed in the 90's was it also still had to feel like a telescopic front end did.
There was another one from an aussie that looked pretty cool in the 90's

[Mental Trousers]

Tony Foale (everybody should read his book Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design) has some software for evaluating different front ends

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Main.htm#FFEsoft

[Mental Trousers]

I have ridden bikes with leading links and other front ends such as earles etc. They used to rise under braking lol

Big design whoops that.


I think what they missed in the 90's was it also still had to feel like a telescopic front end did.

Exactly. Until one of them is winning racers are going to always go back to what they know because it works.

[husaberg]

Big design whoops that.


Exactly. Until one of them is winning racers are going to always go back to what they know because it works.
But it could be tuned out though with the brake arms rejigged they were very popular in the 50'as they flexed less. Not Just MV also used by BMW.
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Saxon won a few races,
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Britten re harshed the Girder forks.
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From Memory White power had a single sided slider front end that showed promise in the early 90's.
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This ribi linked fork was used in a number of works MX bikes in the 80's including Honda
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[Mental Trousers]

This ribi linked fork was used n a number of works MX bikes in the 80's including Honda

313193313195

That ones pretty cool. A leading link with parallelogram linkages above it.

[husaberg]

That ones pretty cool. A leading link with parallelogram linkages above it.

I have some stuff here on it I could probably dig it out he did a few designs I think O'mara raced it and liked it.

[Mental Trousers]

I have some stuff here on it I could probably dig it out he did a few designs I think O'mara raced it and liked it.

Test riders always seem to like the various funny front ends on prototype bikes even though they're not pushing them to the absolute limits.

Why'd Honda stop using that one?

[husaberg]

Test riders always seem to like the various funny front ends on prototype bikes even though they're not pushing them to the absolute limits.

Why'd Honda stop using that one?

No he was racing it in US MX. edit it was Decoster
but this was pre USD other than Simonds forks FOX had funny front ends being trailed then too
As for Honda I don't know that bike was a Works prototype used in Japan had a rear disk valve. They had a twin as well not sure if that is what I posted.(looks like the twin)

[Mental Trousers]

but this was pre USD other than Simonds forks FOX had funny front ends being trailed then too

Probably ended up with forks being cheaper and riders saying the funnies felt different so they'd go back to forks.

[Mental Trousers]

I love what Magpul did with the Ronin series of bikes. Not so much for the girder fork front end, but the limited production with each one taking the name of a legendary Ronin.

http://www.the47.com/tech-specs/#about

http://www.the47.com/the47/

Bike #1 ran at Pikes Peak this year and scored an amazing second place

http://blog.motorcycle.com/2015/06/29/manufacturers/honda/2015-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-results/


313245

[husaberg]

Probably ended up with forks being cheaper and riders saying the funnies felt different so they'd go back to forks.

I think it was cost and looking different.
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Modern Mock up

313260
Original Suzuki 1979
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First Honda Version
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Later Honda Versions
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[husaberg]

and some more
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Early Honda Versions lower twin shock

313267313268313269

[husaberg]

and etc.....313270313271313272313273313274313275

[husaberg]

313277313279313280313281

If you wanted it to be accepted it would have to look normal, or work so much better.

313278313276

[Mental Trousers]

313276

I like the look of that girder front end. It could almost be mistaken for forks, especially if they were metal.

[husaberg]

I like the look of that girder front end. It could almost be mistaken for forks, especially if they were metal.

Yes and carbon tube is relatively cheap as well, just make sure all the alloy is anodised where it touches carbon.
http://www.carbon-tube.com/round.php
http://www.carbon-tube.com/elliptical.php

[husaberg]

Paging Mr Taylor.

!!!

How would one work out the linkages and suitable spring rates and damper set ups etc for something say RS125 Honda sized.
Just spit ball pack stuff.

313276
313376
313372
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313374

Fork legs from center top pivot to dropout center: 21.5"

Top link:
Front center pivot to rear center pivot: 4"
Top link front width: 5"
Top link rear width: 3.228"

Bottom link:
Front center pivot to rear center pivot: 4.5"
Front width: 4.316" (approx because of O-Rings)
Rear width: 3.233"

[husaberg]

I mentioned this one at the start.
http://motovue.net/tag/honda/page/2/
Aussie Uni Student did this in the 90's


The solid looking front “fork” is also made from chrome-moly steel, and is encased in carbon-fibre for added torsional stiffness. This is attached to the two alloy wishbones by a 14mm upper and 16mm lower ball joint that can be adjusted by thread and lock nut to vary the forks rake from a fairly standard 25 degrees to a very steep 18 degrees. The front suspension also makes use of car type polyurethane bushes, while the double wishbones move on plain bearings in order to keep costs down.

The clip-on style handlebars and top yoke pivot in what looks like a conventional steering head (the lower part of which doubles as the top mounting point for the front shock absorber) and uses two rods with eyeball joints at both ends to attach the steering yoke to the fork. The bottom of the front shock absorber is angled out onto a mount at the front of the lower wishbone.

The shock absorber itself is an American car racing A.V.O. unit, with infinitely adjustable rebound and compression damping. Duncan found the A.V.O. shock absorbers specification to be very good, and apart from being a lot cheaper than the “name” brand motorcycle type, it can also be purchased as a single unit with the added bonus of different rate springs being available for a mere $30.


313412313413313414313415313416

[Mental Trousers]

An RZ350 in a custom chassis

http://www.odd-bike.com/2013/03/yamaha-n-d-ffe-350-forkless-two-smoker.html


313422

[Mental Trousers]

I mentioned this one at the start.
http://motovue.net/tag/honda/page/2/
Aussie Uni Student did this in the 90's


That'd be a great fun thesis.

[sil3nt]

Read an article a few months ago about a French Moto2 bike that did a few rounds. Fairly sure it was hub steered and it had some promising results but no teams wanted to take the risk so it faded away. Cant remember the name and sadly my googling isn't returning anything. Will try and dig out the magazine tonight.

[Mental Trousers]

Read an article a few months ago about a French Moto2 bike that did a few rounds. Fairly sure it was hub steered and it had some promising results but no teams wanted to take the risk so it faded away. Cant remember the name and sadly my googling isn't returning anything. Will try and dig out the magazine tonight.

I'm guessing you mean this one


313468

The LaMoto2 http://www.lamoto2.es/

[Mental Trousers]

Actually, it was more likely this one


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313470

The Transfiormers bike http://technomoto.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/transfiormers.html

[sil3nt]

Actually, it was more likely this one


313469

313470

The Transfiormers bike http://technomoto.blogspot.co.nz/2013/09/transfiormers.htmlYep thats the one :2thumbsup

Will post the article if I can find it.

[Shaun Harris]

Google Tryphonas motorcycles. His bike handled like a 250 GP 2 stroke bike. Very cleaver eccentric guy.

[husaberg]

313566 313568

How is it different from the Yamaha GTS Shaun? I see a double sided arm.
313565313567

[manxkiwi]

The Brough ridden by J McWilliams last year in Moto2 had a funky front end. Probably very close to ones pictured in this thread already. Haven't heard if they're running this year or not? Maybe I'll do a search...

[manxkiwi]

Found this site. But can't find any mention of anything happening this year.

http://www.brough-superior.com/ws/frontend/seite/SeiteCms.php?coId=1114&coType=navigation1

[husaberg]

Found this site. But can't find any mention of anything happening this year.

http://www.brough-superior.com/ws/frontend/seite/SeiteCms.php?coId=1114&coType=navigation1

Am i the only one who thinks this Brough
313686313688
looks A bit like this, suspension and top of fairing aside.1997
313687313685
http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/07/hunwick-hallam-hunwick-harrop-aussie.html
To tell you the truth the 1997 Hallam looks more modern other than the seat.

[Mental Trousers]

The Brough ridden by J McWilliams last year in Moto2 had a funky front end. Probably very close to ones pictured in this thread already. Haven't heard if they're running this year or not? Maybe I'll do a search...

The Brough Superior Moto2 is a full carbon fibre monocoque, a proper one that incorporates the fuel tank, not like the Ducati Panigale. The front end is an A arm where the bottom triple clamp would be with cartridge type forks.

Biggest problem they had with it during the one Moto2 race it did was the fuel map.

I don't think they're back this year. Pretty sure they're developing and testing based on the feedback from the Moto2 race.

[Mental Trousers]

Am i the only one who thinks this Brough
313686313688
looks A bit like this, suspension and top of fairing aside.1997
313687313685
http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/07/hunwick-hallam-hunwick-harrop-aussie.html
To tell you the truth the 1997 Hallam looks more modern other than the seat.

Other than the huge, crazy looking carbon fibre upper the Hunwick Hallam was disappointingly conventional chassis-wise.

[husaberg]

Other than the huge, crazy looking carbon fibre upper the Hunwick Hallam was disappointingly conventional chassis-wise.

Ask Rob syphilis.
I only posted it for way it looked.
<iframe width="554" height="310" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZcW6-8-ZJwA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[husaberg]

An RZ350 in a custom chassis

http://www.odd-bike.com/2013/03/yamaha-n-d-ffe-350-forkless-two-smoker.html




I see your AND and Raise you some more.
314738314739314740314741314742314743

[husaberg]

AND sum oar
314744314745314746314747
All these and Moore From Michael Moores website

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics.htm#Tool Stuff

[Mental Trousers]

AND sum oar
...
All these and Moore From Michael Moores website

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics.htm#Tool Stuff

It'd probably work even better if the front swing arm was entirely one sided rather than crossing in front of the engine. The front wheel could be brought back a bit closer to the engine then. As it is it looks like the weight is biased towards the back end quite a bit more than it should be.

[Mental Trousers]

This guy is doing things differently. He's made a Hossack front end for his CBR1000RR that he races. However, as with most others, he's finding that the Hossack is too stiff laterally and the suspension and chassis aren't absorbing bumps while leant over. The solution all the factories are using is tuned flex of the entire chassis. This guy is using a front swing arm that allows the front end to deflect sideways and is controlling it with a coil over damper.

https://www.facebook.com/Suspension-Smith-622479384510016/

[Mental Trousers]

There's a thread on different/unusual engines so I thought I'd start one on different chassis.

Ray Van Steenwyk has come up with a different take on hub centre steering.

All of the suspension is moved behind the wheel (in the attachment it's the red bits) while the triangle that holds the front wheel is rigid front to rear but the top part twists to steer (blue bit).

It has more steering lock than other hub centre steer designs because the swing arm is mounted high on the frame leaving more clearance for the wheel.

Looks like the biggest problem with it, other than complexity and space it takes up, is that they're eliminating the weight transfer involved with braking but weight transfer means grip. That's one of the fundamental differences between cars and bikes, the weight transference. Not understanding that is why many before, such as the Elf GP bikes, have failed.

313150

https://www.motoinno.com.au/home.html

I know it's a prototype but all of the weight is on the rear wheel and that makes it look wrong.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pmc-utsPoQg

[Mental Trousers]

Seems Alan Cathcart likes that front end

https://nebula.wsimg.com/28022a65577f72cd0e7da2a7948a8b2a?AccessKeyId=2229E 12122400A5FEC56&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

[Mental Trousers]

Custom bike builders love doing different stuff with chassis

https://igcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t51.2885-15/e15/11282038_1430824443892212_1218009318_n.jpg

[husaberg]

Custom bike builders love doing different stuff with chassis

https://igcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t51.2885-15/e15/11282038_1430824443892212_1218009318_n.jpg

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu313/w7fc/transformers-megan-fox-on-bike2.jpg

[J.A.W.]

Seems Alan Cathcart likes that front end

https://nebula.wsimg.com/28022a65577f72cd0e7da2a7948a8b2a?AccessKeyId=2229E 12122400A5FEC56&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

Well, if Crashcart likes it.. that means it is dooomed..

As for Al's comment that Britten was the only Kiwi to build an ' unconventional' bike chassis..
.. the likes of Roberts, Mc Intosh et al, would, ah, Begg to differ..

[Mental Trousers]

James Parker designed a bunch of forkless bikes and his designs formed the basis of the Yamaha GTS1000. The last thing I've been able to find of his is the GSX-RADD, a much improved GSXR. He was going to offer conversion kits for popular litre bikes but there's been nothing heard from him since this write up.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/gsx-radd-p3-raddical-future-motor-cycling

[BrendonF]

I'm a big fan of the GTS1000 and the Tesi Series of bikes. I like my front end on my BNW. Brilliant front end and better than conventional forks

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/10/05e0f6cdf16577987f88feda680759a8.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/10/420b4dcaf7ac6305077be34591b251bd.jpg


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[Mental Trousers]

I'm a big fan of the GTS1000 and the Tesi Series of bikes. I like my front end on my BNW. Brilliant front end and better than conventional forks

There are a surprising number of people who would count the GTS1000 as one of the coolest bikes ever.

It's a shame the big bike companies haven't been producing a lot more bikes with forkless front ends. The ones that have been mass produced have had financial and legal considerations playing far too much of a role in their design and have ended up dumbed down and over engineered.

[sidecar bob]

I'm a big fan of the GTS1000 and the Tesi Series of bikes. I like my front end on my BNW. Brilliant front end and better than conventional forks


Does it dip in the front under brakes when pulling up to a stop?
The R1200gs doesn't unless you use rear brake only.
Using front/rear to stop, the bike pulls up very rigidly & can make you look like an amateur as you go to put your foot on the ground, the ground is further away than expected & the bike doesn't rise up after its stopped like telescopics, which you don't notice until you ride a bike that doesn't do it.

[BrendonF]

Very similar. Main difference is the rake changes under speed. Can feel a but vague when going really slow due to the disconnection between the bars and the solid forks


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[husaberg]

Does it dip in the front under brakes when pulling up to a stop?
The R1200gs doesn't unless you use rear brake only.
Using front/rear to stop, the bike pulls up very rigidly & can make you look like an amateur as you go to put your foot on the ground, the ground is further away than expected & the bike doesn't rise up after its stopped like telescopics, which you don't notice until you ride a bike that doesn't do it.

The Brittens girders had dive properties dialled into it, as it feels alien without it.
Dive is good as long as it doesn't use all the suspension travel.
A lot of leading links used raise under braking.

[Shaun Harris]

Does this count as unusual- LOL, I ran out of money to have the chassis re painted the way I wanted it to be

[husaberg]

Does this count as unusual- LOL, I ran out of money to have the chassis re painted the way I wanted it to be

Top right above the couch on the shelf, plus next to the stereo, get more go.................

[Shaun Harris]

Top right above the couch on the shelf, plus next to the stereo, get more go.................



LOL, and there is much more than that still of the Original Milo. I will have loads at the race track with me for sale

[jellywrestler]

Does this count as unusual- LOL, I ran out of money to have the chassis re painted the way I wanted it to be

mix milo with pva glue and spread it on with a knife, or even better; a cheese grater, that'll give it a textured look like no other bike.

[Shaun Harris]

mix milo with pva glue and spread it on with a knife, or even better; a cheese grater, that'll give it a textured look like no other bike.



LOL, I will bring you a bag for your work if you want one at Hampton mate?

[sil3nt]

http://www.gizmag.com/motoinno-ts3-motorcycle-suspension-steering-moto2/42378/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuBbgdLqSZw

[Mental Trousers]

Most likely a load of shit but wouldn't it be a wonderful thing?

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/hondas-hossack-forks-on-superbike

[Mental Trousers]

The race version of this is my Lotto bike. The 600cc Moto2 hub centre steer from Vyrus.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/vyrus-986-m2-street-bike-price/

[husaberg]

Most likely a load of shit but wouldn't it be a wonderful thing?

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/hondas-hossack-forks-on-superbike

Honda used Hub steer with the elf bikes and a Ribi front end in MX so anythings possible.
Hossacks patents if he had them sewn up must be due to expire soon.

[Mental Trousers]

Honda used Hub steer with the elf bikes and a Ribi front end in MX so anythings possible.

They did. But they were for competition. The superbike will be for road and competition. The road market is a whole different segment, especially if they launch them into the US market with their love of suing everyone and everything.

[husaberg]

They did. But they were for competition. The superbike will be for road and competition. The road market is a whole different segment, especially if they launch them into the US market with their love of suing everyone and everything.

Pretty sure neither the RC30 or the OW01 were initially road legal in the USA.
The US propensity to sue likely has a lot to do with Fords propensity to produce cars that roll over or catch fire or do both.:msn-wink:

[garyrees]

Weight is still transferred with a non diving front suspension. Weight transfer can only be reduced by lowering the centre of mass of the bike and rider.


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