Community DIY Workshop

[bugn8r]

Hey guys,

For a uni paper I'm doing we have to plan a business. Anyway I'm pretty much copying the idea of the Kustom Kommune over in Melbourne which is Community DIY Workshop.


It's a communal space where all tools are provided. Also quite a social area with fridges/bbq's etc, perfect for meets.


Anyway for any of you that live in the city I was hoping you could help me out and give me an idea of how many people would be interested in this idea and at what cost you would pay for a monthly/yearly membership?

The more information I collect the better so even if you don't need the space just imagine having to live in the centre of town without a garage, think how shit it could be haha.

Cheers guys

[haydes55]

$10/ week annual membership would be good. Short term use could be like $50 for 1 week. Extra $20/week storage fees if I was to be leaving a project in a storage garage as well.

I'd think you'd get bigger membership if you kept rates low, and made your bread charging extras like having an onsite mechanic available to offer a hand for a fee, charge for storage, have a licensed bar, courtesy ute/truck (charge to tow/haul broken cars/bikes too and from the workshop, then drop off drunken patrons).

[Big Dog]

Not something i would typically indulge in but if I lived in one of the battery housing units in town I guess I'd be keen.
Annual membership plus storage fees would be the best model.
$10 a week would be pretty reasonable if you did all your servicing there. Even if you added a $10 booking fee to guarantee an available berth on the day of your choice.

Oh it's really broken need to leave the bike there for 12 weeks for a part from Japan? Most wouldn't complain at $10 a day or $25 for the week. Our double it for secure storage. ie locked door to your bay so you can leave the bike / car partially disassembled.


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[nodrog]

What if there's a line 20 tards deep waiting to use the sellotape?

Sounds far easier to move house.

[Tazz]

Price completely depends on how well it is kitted out.

Is the drill a hand drill from 1864 that spits swarf into your eye, even when you're not drilling, or are there 10 high powered cordless electrics on hand. Do I have to spoon fight 3 other people for the one screw driver only to find it's a flat head, that's been sharpened into a shiv, or are there screw drivers as far as the eye can see, with little children throwing them at each other as a manly version of ball tag.

[iYRe]

there is something like this set up for bicycles in Auckland:

http://www.tumekecyclespace.org.nz/

[rambaldi]

there is something like this set up for bicycles in Auckland:

http://www.tumekecyclespace.org.nz/

Ah, thats the place I was thinking about when I first read this. Tumkeke Cycle Space is co-located within Tangleball. Tangleball I think oversee/share/what ever it is they want to call it, the shared space although I am not sure how much support they would be able to give for projects as envisioned by this suggestion.

[Motu]

There used to be car workshops like that in Auckland - it was a long time ago so they didn't have hoists, but all the other gear was there, you rented the space and gear, did your work and drove out. Long gone, so that's the success rate.

[Tazz]

there is something like this set up for bicycles in Auckland:

http://www.tumekecyclespace.org.nz/

menzshed is a similar, but less specific concept. There's one in Picton but admittedly I've never taken a peek.

[baffa]

I like the idea, but the set up costs would be prohibitive, especially if you ramped up the fees to compensate. I'd want good hand tools and power tools, and stands for all manner of bikes including single sided swing arm bikes. A place to collect waste oil and secure storage for bikes/parts also.


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[jellywrestler]

What if there's a line 20 tards deep waiting to use the sellotape?

Sounds far easier to move house.

scissor paper rock , thought you'd suss that out!

[sidecar bob]

The concept has been done to death. Tauranga had a UFix workshop 20 years ago or more. They go bust in short order.
Another thing I can tell you for a fact, & this is from someone that has repaired vehicles for the best part of 30 years. Fixing cars & drinking piss don't mix. I like to do both very much, but never at the same time.

[jim.cox]

It's a communal space where all tools are provided.

The tools will have vanished before the end of week one...

[Akzle]

There used to be car workshops like that in Auckland - it was a long time ago so they didn't have hoists, but all the other gear was there, you rented the space and gear, did your work and drove out. Long gone, so that's the success rate.
this is the closest as i'd see it.

not so much a communal "hangout" space, morelike one of those self-store places, but with garages lined up nekk to each other. maybe a smoko room.

a set of tools (we're looking at 40k a go here. for the basics) per garage/ rfid tag em so the get noticed if they go out of the garage/ compound, people can rent per day/ week/ month/ year for everything in a garage.

plus manned stores for specialty tools and someone to tickoff all the tools when people leave.


I like the idea, but the set up costs would be prohibitive, especially if you ramped up the fees to compensate. I'd want good hand tools and power tools, and stands for all manner of bikes including single sided swing arm bikes. A place to collect waste oil and secure storage for bikes/parts also.


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this too.


Another thing I can tell you for a fact, & this is from someone that has repaired vehicles for the best part of 30 years. Fixing cars & drinking piss don't mix.
pussy.

[sidecar bob]

Also, what happens when someone fucks themselves up big time & work safe come in & give the owner a serious rogering because someone did something stupid?

[nzspokes]

Also, what happens when someone fucks themselves up big time & work safe come in & give the owner a serious rogering because someone did something stupid?

That was going to be my point. New H&S laws will make this impossible.

[Scuba_Steve]

Another thing I can tell you for a fact, & this is from someone that has repaired vehicles for the best part of 30 years. Fixing cars & drinking piss don't mix. I like to do both very much, but never at the same time.

You haven't met these new things then I take it? You plug in a connection, load up some software, it tells you which part to replace, plug in the new part & bam you're done!
I suppose if you're shitfaced reading the error code on the screen becomes a bit harder but other than that I can't imagine why you would do it sober, it would be sooo boring like running through an ISP's "can you do this" checklist

[Oakie]

That was going to be my point. New H&S laws will make this impossible.

Nah. As long as you could be seen to have taken all reasonable steps for the size of the business you could do it. You would need to do some serious work thinking of all the ways people could hurt themselves that you could control though and take documented steps to manage all of those things. Big job but employers serious about HSE will cope.

[Akzle]

Nah. As long as you could be seen to have taken all reasonable steps for the size of the business you could do it. You would need to do some serious work thinking of all the ways people could hurt themselves that you could control though and take documented steps to manage all of those things. Big job but employers serious about HSE will cope.

he's not EMPLOYING these cunts to work on THEIR motorcycles...:weird:


non liability agreement signed on entry. big stupid signs. hi vis screw drivers.

[russd7]

Nah. As long as you could be seen to have taken all reasonable steps for the size of the business you could do it. You would need to do some serious work thinking of all the ways people could hurt themselves that you could control though and take documented steps to manage all of those things. Big job but employers serious about HSE will cope.

yup, except you don't have the same control over general public as you do over employees. one of the changes coming to the health and safety act is dropping the minimize part, it will be eliminate or isolate only and the fines are going to be phenominal and directors and ceo's are also not going to be able to hide from it anymore.

it means that for something like this it will have to be set up for the lowest common denominator, it would have to be muppet proof.

just because you believe you have taken all reasonable steps dose not mean that all reasonable steps have been taken and ignorance is not a defense.

[sidecar bob]

You haven't met these new things then I take it? You plug in a connection, load up some software, it tells you which part to replace, plug in the new part & bam you're done!
I suppose if you're shitfaced reading the error code on the screen becomes a bit harder but other than that I can't imagine why you would do it sober, it would be sooo boring like running through an ISP's "can you do this" checklist

I own a pair of fantastic up to date diagnostic machines & am very proficient at using them. However a diagnostic machine makes you a mechanic about as much as a pair of scissors make you a hairdresser.

[Scuba_Steve]

yup, except you don't have the same control over general public as you do over employees. one of the changes coming to the health and safety act is dropping the minimize part, it will be eliminate or isolate only and the fines are going to be phenominal and directors and ceo's are also not going to be able to hide from it anymore.

it means that for something like this it will have to be set up for the lowest common denominator, it would have to be muppet proof.

just because you believe you have taken all reasonable steps dose not mean that all reasonable steps have been taken and ignorance is not a defense.

so... plastic spanners, foam screwdrivers & playdough oil then?

[russd7]

he's not EMPLOYING these cunts to work on THEIR motorcycles...:weird:


non liability agreement signed on entry. big stupid signs. hi vis screw drivers.

makes no difference, he is providing a service so therefore is responsible, only way to negate that responsibility is if persons are there unlawfully.

[Oakie]

he's not EMPLOYING these cunts to work on THEIR motorcycles...:weird:

non liability agreement signed on entry. big stupid signs. hi vis screw drivers.

HSE legislation also relates to visitors on site which is what these people would be so no difference really.
'Non liability agreement' is not worth the paper it's written on. You can't 'agree' out of HSE law.
Big stupid signs can be a help for some things but won't be worth a pinch of shit if for example someone falls in a hole and all you have done is put a big sign beside it pointing out the hole rather than eliminating, isolating or minimising the hazard.
Hi vis screwdrivers? Well it would make it harder to lose them I suppose.

[Oakie]

yup, except you don't have the same control over general public as you do over employees. one of the changes coming to the health and safety act is dropping the minimize part, it will be eliminate or isolate only

Nah. Minimise is still there ... section 29 of the Reform Bill:

Managing risk to ensure health and safety

The duties to ensure health and safety require the duty holder to manage risk through eliminating or minimising the risk, so far as is reasonably practicable in the circumstances.

Some of the PCBU duties in the Bill require them to ensure something is without risk, or that health and safety is not put at risk.

These duties should be looked at together with the duty to manage risk.

This doesn’t mean that the duty of care requires that all risks must always be eliminated. In some cases it will be reasonably practicable to eliminate risk, but in others it will not. If that’s the case, then the risk must be minimised, so far as reasonably practicable.

Depending on the circumstances and the risk, minimisation may include isolating the risk, coming up with engineering solutions, adapting work methods and procedures, or providing personal protective equipment.

[bogan]

That was going to be my point. New H&S laws will make this impossible.

Didn't the old laws do that thoroughly enough?

There are 'makerspaces' popping up in US fairly often still though, but I guess they have more options to sign away their rights to get others in trouble for their own stupidity.

[caseye]

Used to be a drive in, put it there , work on it, drive it out again place in Station Road Ota hu shoes!.
It had hoists, pits even, paint booths and prep areas.
Worked very well for a number of years.
One guy sat in front office and took the cash, provided advice and expertise for a fee.
Tools were up to date and painted a hideous green, no one allowed in or out without being checked for gear ( Na Akz, tools type gear)
Seriously it was there for the best part of twenty years.

[nodrog]

scissor paper rock , thought you'd suss that out!

I'm just not that smart.

[Tazz]

Not general public guys. You're a paying member/subscriber.

If any of the crap being thrown around above was true gyms or sports clubs wouldn't exist and some dudes on horses would be running around killing us...

Did anyone else look up the example the op posted btw? Hipster as but so awesome for peeps stuck in apartments.

[Oakie]

Not general public guys. You're a paying member/subscriber. If any of the crap being thrown around above was true gyms or sports clubs wouldn't exist and some dudes on horses would be running around killing us... .

If this is the sort of thing you meant ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11352636

[Old Steve]

Something like that is being set up in Chicago, think it's called 'chicagomotorgarage'. I've seen it mentioned on motorcycleforum.com in General Motorcycle Discussion. If they think it could work in the USA's litigious environment then it might work anywhere.

[Akzle]

so awesome for peeps stuck in apartments.

silly fucks.
If you cant get the bike in, its not real estate.

[baffa]

Also getting business cover would be nigh on impossible due to lack of security and moral and morale risks, and difficulty in seeking compensation. If you had staff giving 1:1 or 1:2 attention to your customers with no unsupervised work then perhaps. But forget any hot works such as welding, soldering, or grinding.


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[trustme]

Lee Hurley [ Mr Rusty Nuts ] tried it in the early to mid 80's in Otahuhu. Did not go well.

[sidecar bob]

Lee Hurley [ Mr Rusty Nuts ] tried it in the early to mid 80's in Otahuhu. Did not go well.

I think you mentioned the problem in your post there as well.:lol:

[awayatc]

in Netherlands a local government funded similar set-up existed for a while....
qualified mechanic there to oversee and help the young and unemployed fix their own transport, and learn some new skills...
for a nominal fee..
even though it didn't have to make a profit, it fell over.....

The idea is great, but very hard to operate and fund in the real world....

[sidecar bob]

The biggest issue I believe is that this type of system will wither attract either shit kickers or posers, neither of which are ideal punters.

[R650R]

This was tried in Napier about 20 years ago, before the P epidemic and back when there was a lot less dishonesty and thieving.
I think it lasted several months before it closed due to constant thievery of tools etc as well as being burgled I think.

People are right about H&S aspects. You will either need one on one supervision by qualified person of have the hiree prove their competence via documentated qualification to use tools.
Only way for it too work would be to have an incorporated club or society constructed around it and entry controlled by membership only.

A good idea but in todays world with costs of compliance and cheap tools at supercheap/repco/online shopping the appropriate membership and hireage fees just make it unfeasible.

[sidecar bob]

I have a great idea that would make the whole thing work. No H&S issues, no thieving etc.
What everyone does that wants to fix their own stuff, is gets a shed of their own, either at home or somewhere else & buys all the tools & equipment to tackle the kind of work they are capable of & then they can fix their own stuff at that place & possibly even charge other people to fix their stuff as well.
I'm not sure it will catch on though.

[ellipsis]

I have a great idea that would make the whole thing work. No H&S issues, no thieving etc.
What everyone does wants to fix their own stuff, is gets a shed of their own, either at home or somewhere else & buys all the tools & equipment to tackle the kind of work they are capable of & then they can fix their own stuff at that place & possibly even charge other people to fix their stuff as well.
I'm not sure it will catch on though.


...my thoughts exactly...but while everyone these days needs a support group just to be able to breath without assistance , I cant see it happening either...whatever happened to learning and manuals and just fucken getting on with it...(will you hold my cock while I have a wank...)

[Motu]

Lee Hurley [ Mr Rusty Nuts ] tried it in the early to mid 80's in Otahuhu. Did not go well.

Salesyard Rd, I remember when he was there, he used to come and get his WoF's from me. I don't remember any free for all workshop, but there was always someone different working on a bike there. That car place was operating then on station Rd too.

[caspernz]

I have a great idea that would make the whole thing work. No H&S issues, no thieving etc.
What everyone does wants to fix their own stuff, is gets a shed of their own, either at home or somewhere else & buys all the tools & equipment to tackle the kind of work they are capable of & then they can fix their own stuff at that place & possibly even charge other people to fix their stuff as well.
I'm not sure it will catch on though.

Haha, yeah this approach works for me. The only downside was having to spend my own money and do my own learning how to do stuff, which involved that dreaded thing...a workshop manual :devil2:

I'm sure the shared workshop space thing could work, albeit as a philanthropic enterprise run by some bored rich fella :love:

[Tazz]

If this is the sort of thing you meant ... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11352636

Not sure.
It's not the 4 horsemen of the supposed apocalypse, and it's not an article about how all gyms and sports clubs in NZ are closing because of H&S BS, which would fully be applicable to them considering how dangerous some of that gear is in, well, dumb hands...

It's also from Nov 14, so I wonder if they are getting their ducks in a row or if it was thrown out?
Sucks either way, hard to fuck up making or landing in a foam pit, but people will find a way given the chance. :laugh:

[awayatc]

I have a great idea that would make the whole thing work. No H&S issues, no thieving etc.
What everyone does wants to fix their own stuff, is gets a shed of their own, either at home or somewhere else & buys all the tools & equipment to tackle the kind of work they are capable of & then they can fix their own stuff at that place & possibly even charge other people to fix their stuff as well.
I'm not sure it will catch on though.

Agreed......

And for those that are not thus inclined .....
they can try to find somebody who is....
has all the proper gear...
and professional knowledge...
And pays for all the legislative red tape bullshit...

Why the fuck would you want to pay somebody like that .?
how dare they try to make a living...?

[Tazz]

Agreed......

And for those that are not thus inclined .....
they can try to find somebody who is....
has all the proper gear...
and professional knowledge...
And pays for all the legislative red tape bullshit...

Why the fuck would you want to pay somebody like that .?
how dare they try to make a living...?

You make it sound like all mechanics are created equal :laugh:

Just because you've paid someone to do it doesn't mean it will be right, and it doesn't mean the charge is fair.
Luckily the local mechanic here is fuckin ace, but he's one of those backyard guys that KB would tell you not to trust and is ruining life for garages, so I shouldn't say too much.

[sidecar bob]

You make it sound like all mechanics are created equal :laugh:

Just because you've paid someone to do it doesn't mean it will be right, and it doesn't mean the charge is fair.
Luckily the local mechanic here is fuckin ace, but he's one of those backyard guys that KB would tell you not to trust and is ruining life for garages, so I shouldn't say too much.

I'd suggest guys like that make life better for garages. It's a socioeconomic thing.
People that use backyarders are not taking anything from garages that the garages actually want.
For example, my garage (owned for 23 years) specialises in BMW cars manufactured between '95 & 2010. Involvement with my company offers clean modern premises, decent four door automatic European courtesy cars with aircond & airbags, electronic invoicing with full in house retention of vehicle service history & factory & used vehicle warranty. A comfortable clean reception area. Membership of the country's longest established & most respected trade association.
Qualified technicians using up to date equipment.
If anyone wants to dip below that standard in order to save a few dimes I would strongly encourage them to do so.

[Tazz]

I'd suggest guys like that make life better for garages. It's a socioeconomic thing.
People that use backyarders are not taking anything from garages that the garages actually want.
For example, my garage (owned for 23 years) specialises in BMW cars manufactured between '95 & 2010. Involvement with my company offers clean modern premises, decent four door automatic European courtesy cars with aircond & airbags, electronic invoicing with full in house retention of vehicle service history & factory & used vehicle warranty. A comfortable clean reception area. Membership of the country's longest established & most respected trade association.
Qualified technicians using up to date equipment.
If anyone wants to dip below that standard in order to save a few dimes I would strongly encourage them to do so.

:laugh: It's the opposite reason that I use him. The standard of work, and possibly workshop if you judge one by its oil stains, is higher than that of most of the local establishments we have on offer for bikes. He's also well qualified. That's worth note.
I haven't used him as much as I could have because I do most things myself. Also price wise, not bottom dollar, but you know it is a fair price rather than a clip of the ticket.

Also uses 'electronic invoicing with full in house retention of vehicle service history', as most businesses have since the 90's. If that is used as a selling point where you work, I don't know if the standard is as high as you think, or you might just be old school.

You're right on the jobs garages don't want though. They want to stick to the shiny quick jobs, not get their hands dirty and clip the ticket for maximum profit, but ironically advertise their 'great service' in the meantime. Not all places are like that, I'm sure you guys do good work and not all backyard guys are good, but it's not black and white like you make out.

[sidecar bob]

I can think of half a dozen garages that are still handwriting invoices around my area, with all the additional office work that goes on behind the scenes as a result.
Two easy ways to know if a garage is profitable or not. If the mechanic answers the phone himself & if they hand write their invoices they are aprox about between half & two thirds as profitable as they possibly could be.

[Tazz]

Holy shit! Would not have picked that. It's so easy. Same guys probably have 4 tons of parts diagrams folders crammed into the place, although I guess not all older stuff will be digital yet.

The only hand written ones I get now are from very small suppliers, but even then most are switching to tablet software (they're on a road, so a little different).

[sidecar bob]

Holy shit! Would not have picked that. It's so easy. Same guys probably have 4 tons of parts diagrams folders crammed into the place, although I guess not all older stuff will be digital yet.

The only hand written ones I get now are from very small suppliers, but even then most are switching to tablet software (they're on a road, so a little different).

I try to help the poor dumb cunts. The key is to employ at front of house, not rear. So basically, as you get busier, put in a receptionist & keep fixing cars, rather than employ an apprentice & end up in the office yourself. Everyone will be happier, mainly your customers.

[old rig]

I try to help the poor dumb cunts. The key is to employ at front of house, not rear. So basically, as you get busier, put in a receptionist & keep fixing cars, rather than employ an apprentice & end up in the office yourself. Everyone will be happier, mainly your customers.

I know how you can help the poor dumb cunts you could buy Milo and provide that for your clients

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[Tazz]

I try to help the poor dumb cunts. The key is to employ at front of house, not rear. So basically, as you get busier, put in a receptionist & keep fixing cars, rather than employ an apprentice & end up in the office yourself. Everyone will be happier, mainly your customers.

For sure. Hard step for some people to take.
You've completely underlined the point of all mechanics not being created equal too.
Those dudes running their workshop could learn something from a guy working out of his garage at home :laugh:

[jonnyk5614]

Similar set-ups for cars were getting quite common in the UK when I left, albeit more on a "pay by the hour/day" model.

Some rented nothing but a ramp. Others ramp and tools. Some even had "experts" on hand that could give you a hand and stamp your service book!

[sidecar bob]

Those dudes running their workshop could learn something from a guy working out of his garage at home :laugh:

What? pocketing cash while claiming a benefit? :nono:

[TheDemonLord]

All the naysaying aside (not that it isn't relevant Critique)

I would be interested in signing up for something like that - I have quite a few tools at home, but I always manage to loose my 10 and 12 mm Sockets and spanners and will get half way through a job and not be able to find the bloody tool to finish the job.

[neels]

When I was a young fella I had access to a similar facility to this, hoist, pit, specialist tools etc, and storage available for longer term work in progress.

If I hadn't I wouldn't have been able to fix stuff myself, wasn't run for profit so was cheap but would have paid more for the same service if it was a business, if you're not paying for someone else's time swinging spanners it's the biggest saving on any job.

These days I do pretty much everything myself except specialist component rebuilds, or any work that requires a hoist in which case I pay the garage, at least until I get around to installing one in my garage at home.....

[ellipsis]

...It sounds good on paper, but impractical in more ways than one...there are not enough hippies about now and love is a recessive attribute, they have turned into greenies who drive small wanky cars and find it easy to dislike someone who flagrantly wastes more fuel than them...whats left is dumb. good intentioned folk, putting up with time wasting, got nowhere else to go people who turn well intentioned people into drunks and who get in the shit with their wives or girl friends...then they lose their 13mm open ender, then their long reach plug socket...ad infinitum, 'til you end up like some of us who more pragmatic about human nature, 'cos we have all been burned or learned before...I don't think i'm being negative, much...

[Tazz]

What? pocketing cash while claiming a benefit? :nono:

Remember when I mentioned the invoice? They have GST numbers on em.

There would be less cash pocketed than your dodgy garage mates around the road that haven't even discovered windows95 yet :laugh: Bugger their accounts, if they won't pay for that imagine their tool boxes. Probably taking axle nuts off with cold chisels.

Will stick to not prejudging everyone and finding people who are onto it regardless of the location work out of thanks.

[geoffm]

The tools will have vanished before the end of week one...

This.
It would cost $50k to tool up, and be buggered and stolen in no time.
There are "Mens Sheds" which are similar but volunteer

[sidecar bob]

Will stick to not prejudging everyone and finding people who are onto it regardless of the location work out of thanks.

But you have prejudged garages a bit. All good, I think we actually agree anyhow.:niceone:

[Smifffy]

I have a great idea that would make the whole thing work. No H&S issues, no thieving etc.
What everyone does that wants to fix their own stuff, is gets a shed of their own, either at home or somewhere else & buys all the tools & equipment to tackle the kind of work they are capable of & then they can fix their own stuff at that place & possibly even charge other people to fix their stuff as well.
I'm not sure it will catch on though.

Yeah, I would have gone in for this a few years ago. Would have been happy to pay for a rent-a-shed type place and used it as a base to do projects using my own tools etc. Except all the rent-a-shed places specifically prohibit that, so the other option was to lease a full size workshop, but on a hobby basis that was not economically feasible. Now I'm moving to a place with a decent size garage and a barn, so lack of room should no longer be an excuse. Lack of skill is likely to be the real problem.

[bugn8r]

Cheers guys, responses have been awesome.

I wanted/needed both sides of the argument too.

I do honestly think a lot of the problems raised could be overcome but I think the main hurdle would be start up costs. In aussy the kustom kommune raised $41k through crowdsourcing, that just wouldn't work here. So far the most viable option I've come up with (without introducing a restaurant/bar into the mix) would be to have a small bike shop (not a yamaha dealer or anything, one of the more so parts places) open up some extra space to run these work spaces. That way they're still selling basic parts plus bringing people in.

Problem is I can't really say this for the assignment :laugh:

[sidecar bob]

Crowdsourcing? is that a flash word for begging?

[bogan]

Crowdsourcing? is that a flash word for begging?

Begging and market testing.

[sidecar bob]

Begging and market testing.

Id like to test to see if I like the taste of beer. Does anybody want to crowdsource me?

[jellywrestler]

Id like to test to see if I like the taste of beer. Does anybody want to crowdsource me?

i'll give you some beer, no mate of mine should ever have to beg for beer, ever.

[Smifffy]

Id like to test to see if I like the taste of beer. Does anybody want to crowdsource me?

What a great idea:

http://bit.ly/1IAV2Qh

Basically, if you can sell it, and people think they can "get in on the ground floor of success" then you can crowdfund it. More successful in the USA however, since they have more dollars than sense.

[trustme]

Here's a link to one in Atlanta with a few headaches & one in Chicago that is trying to get going . https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCkQFjAAahUKEwjjl9_hr7PHAhWDJ5QKHVzOCQ4&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrothermoto.com%2F&ei=aYjTVaO_DoPP0ATcnKdw&usg=AFQjCNFIcp6JXSEAbS1-uAK8Xb1dQL8uAA. http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/brother-moto-needs-a-helping-hand.1087093/