Volkswagen running for cover

[Stylo]

A decade old family feud, boardroom coups, takeover battles and now the realisation of the manipulated diesel emissions tests in the U.S. ( and Europe too it's been suggested ) that could run into the tens of billions in costs.

Not a good week for Volkswagen, and it ain't gonna get any better. This is just the start .

[EJK]

I suspect American automobile companies conspiracy in the works. Ford and GMs are pumping out 4,000cc V8s (except for the new Mustang EcoBoost bullshit) out of the production line hourly and they are pointing fingers at VW for cheating emission tests for their 1.6/2.0 diesel engines.

Like what happened to Toyota just after GM/Ford crisis in 2008-2010. "American cars don't sell well? Then let's cover a media about a lady who put her foot down pedal to the metal on the freeway then blame Toyota for poor quality of floor carpets"

[Maha]

I don't think it's that bigger deal, there is no vehicle life threatening fault here, just more crap being exhausted than usual.

[EJK]

I don't think it's that bigger deal, there is no vehicle life threatening fault here, just more crap being exhausted than usual.

And only American rules/ regulations.

[Maha]

And only American rules/ regulations.

I'd still buy a VW if that's what I really wanted, their SUV's are quite a looker.

[Laava]

What I wanna know is how come Axehole hasn't jumped in here and blamed the jews yet?

Oh, it might be his PD day.

[Laava]

I'd still buy a VW if that's what I really wanted, their SUV's are quite a looker.

Exactly, they are still a class act. Also one of the few cars accurately described as a vag car, along with anything with Chery written on it. Time will tell regarding the resale though.

[neels]

Time will tell regarding the resale though.
Depends what they do to them from here. If they are left as they are, they will lose appeal with the small amount of the market who are people buying for environmental reasons. If they have to reprogram to meet the emission standards and lose engine power and economy, they will probably lose appeal with most of their market who were buying for those reasons.

Either way the lawyers will make a small fortune sorting it out.

[sidecar bob]

Id be prepared to bet that another couple of prominent European brands will be in the same shit shortly.
They're all using similar technology & if one brand cant meet the standards, chances are that some of the others are fudging the results too.
They announced this morning that other brands will be tested.
As it is, the air coming out the tailpipe of most of that stuff is cleaner than what's going in the at the front.

[pritch]

Funny how this was discovered. VW apparently use two different testing regimes and some tiny outfit with a minute budget was interested to compare the results obtained by each. They got an unexpected result.

Ducati executives have been asked for comment but have been apparently told not to. Then again Ducati is but a small corner of the VW empire.

Nothing in this would put me off buying a VW, but in the USA lawyers will no doubt be looking to start a class action.

[sidecar bob]

What I wanna know is how come Axehole hasn't jumped in here and blamed the jews yet?

Oh, it might be his PD day.
It's not their fault, they were just the last poor bastards the Germans lied to about gas emissions.

[FROSTY]

mehh--VW cheated ,VW got caught.VW have stated that they cheted. It was a definite case of cheating not miscalculation of figures.
Global fallout--well for VW its already happening.You can bet your boots theres a bunch of other manufacturers with billions of lost sales all around the world as a result who will be baying for blood.
Long term--the entire vehicle testing regime has to be called into question.
Methodology needs to be reviewed.
This is the tip of a VERY ugly iceberg.

[EJK]

It's not their fault, they were just the last poor bastards the Germans lied to about gas emissions.

Hitler and the chamber of secrets?

[sidecar bob]

mehh--VW cheated ,VW got caught.VW have stated that they cheted. It was a definite case of cheating not miscalculation of figures.
Global fallout--well for VW its already happening.You can bet your boots theres a bunch of other manufacturers with billions of lost sales all around the world as a result who will be baying for blood.
Long term--the entire vehicle testing regime has to be called into question.
Methodology needs to be reviewed.
This is the tip of a VERY ugly iceberg.

What I can't understand is that for every VW model, there is an equivalent Audi, Skoda & Seat, it's just a degree of luxury thing. How did they not fail the emissions tests? or are they next? And they are not the brands I predict will be getting busted for the same thing shortly, although it's probably inevitable.

[Grumph]

What I can't understand is that for every VW model, there is an equivalent Audi, Skoda & Seat, it's just a degree of luxury thing. How did they not fail the emissions tests? or are they next? And they are not the brands I predict will be getting busted for the same thing shortly, although it's probably inevitable.

I understood that pretty well all the Euro manufacturers examine the competition very closely - and regularly buy examples and test them.
I'd bet more than one has found the trick for meeting emissions testing and thought, "shit that's a good idea, lets see how long we can get away with this"
As you say Bob, more to come....

[R650R]

This is no different to bike manufacturers retarding ignition maps to pass noise regs.
The VW engines and others are very good and very clean. However for a Cat converter to work properly and efficiently it has to be hot. So an extra map is included when under test to burn fuel in the exhaust to get the CAT hot enough to pass emmisions. During driving once engine is hot it doesn't need this so its switched off.
Cummins IGX engines do the same by injecting diesel into the exhaust to make it hot enough for the emmisons control processes to work.
The general public is so dumbed down they haven't a hope in hell of understanding this so have been hoodwinked by media and the Elite. VW was just about to go mainstream with Electric car infrastructure in China to tune of 22 Billion dollars, coincidentally the same as their emmisions cheat fine.... make of that what you will.....

[Stylo]

Hitler and the chamber of secrets?

Interestingly, the supplier of uniforms to the Nazi's was none other than Hugo Boss. And they're still going and doing very well by the sound of it. Time heals all wounds, sad but true.

I have no sympathy for VW, I do feel for the 270,00 employees ( just under the population of Christchurch) it will be interesting to see how it unfolds and flows on to other manufacturers as, evidently it already has.

[pzkpfw]

...

Nothing in this would put me off buying a VW, but in the USA lawyers will no doubt be looking to start a class action.

On another forum I'm a member of, some of the American members (who happen to own VW's) report already being contacted by such lawyers.


This stuff isn't just for cars. I recall reading of refrigerators (Samsung?) that detected when electricity efficiency tests were being performed and adjusted themselves accordingly.

(... a quick Google finds this on LG fridges ... http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/lg-under-the-gun-for-cheating-on-energy-efficiency-testing.html )

[Laava]

. I recall reading of refrigerators (Samsung?) that detected when electricity efficiency tests were being performed and adjusted themselves accordingly.)

They have a politician gene? Now, that, is fucking clever!

[Woodman]

Its all happened before, and by Americans too.

http://jalopnik.com/how-the-epa-won-1-billion-from-diesel-cheaters-long-be-1732109485

[Stylo]

On another forum I'm a member of, some of the American members (who happen to own VW's) report already being contacted by such lawyers.


This stuff isn't just for cars. I recall reading of refrigerators (Samsung?) that detected when electricity efficiency tests were being performed and adjusted themselves accordingly.

(... a quick Google finds this on LG fridges ... http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/lg-under-the-gun-for-cheating-on-energy-efficiency-testing.html )

Message to VW -Once bitten-twice shy.

Exposing other manufacturers flaws is a cheap trick. VW planned, approved and then orchestrated a deception to pass emissions approval to gain sales in the US and, Europe by the sound of it as it unravels. VW sat round the table and planned this, it doesn't just happen like 'whoops!'

Enjoy your VW's, I won't be going near one for a while.

Raises the question, what else have VW tricked us with ( and BMW, Audi etc ) ?

I drive a 10 year old Jap car, it has it's flaws but at least they haven't lied about it while charging extra for their 'premium' product.

[FROSTY]

What I can't understand is that for every VW model, there is an equivalent Audi, Skoda & Seat, it's just a degree of luxury thing. How did they not fail the emissions tests? or are they next? And they are not the brands I predict will be getting busted for the same thing shortly, although it's probably inevitable.
Bob-Audi, Seat, Skoda product --all based on the same mechanical platform.All as I understand it built by VAG group.
So any vehicles running that specific diesel engine you can be sure has the same cheat program.
-Incidently its a very clever sub program that is set off by turning the vehicle to emission test mode--which is soposed to only turn of the TC etc
The way I see it there are FOUR test parameters that could be being cheated.
1)Emissions
2)fuel efficiency
3)crash testing.
4)performance

we already have proof of cheating in one area. Im betting fuel efficiency is the next one

[sidecar bob]

Message to VW -Once bitten-twice shy.

Exposing other manufacturers flaws is a cheap trick. VW planned, approved and then orchestrated a deception to pass emissions approval to gain sales in the US and, Europe by the sound of it as it unravels. VW sat round the table and planned this, it doesn't just happen like 'whoops!'

Enjoy your VW's, I won't be going near one for a while.

Raises the question, what else have VW tricked us with ( and BMW, Audi etc ) ?

I drive a 10 year old Jap car, it has it's flaws but at least they haven't lied about it while charging extra for their 'premium' product.

If that makes you feel good about the mundane task of running a ten year old jap car then you go with it.:niceone:

[sidecar bob]

Bob-Audi, Seat, Skoda product --all based on the same mechanical platform.All as I understand it built by VAG group.
So any vehicles running that specific diesel engine you can be sure has the same cheat program.
-Incidently its a very clever sub program that is set off by turning the vehicle to emission test mode--which is soposed to only turn of the TC etc

Exactly my point.

[FROSTY]

If that makes you feel good about the mundane task of running a ten year old jap car then you go with it.:niceone:
OYYY--I LOVE my 12 year old Jappa. --Toyota Brevis.

[pete376403]

I'd rather take something with a VW diesel engine over something with a GM ignition lock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_General_Motors_recall

[FJRider]

...I drive a 10 year old Jap car, it has it's flaws but at least they haven't lied about it while charging extra for their 'premium' product.

They have not admitted to doing so ... but that does NOT say they have not lied about it either ... ;)

[Moi]

A wee bit of background reading... from the Wall Street Journal (http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-emissions-problem-exposed-by-routine-university-research-1443023854)

These are the guys who first noticed something amiss.

[Stylo]

A wee bit of background reading... from the Wall Street Journal (http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-emissions-problem-exposed-by-routine-university-research-1443023854)

These are the guys who first noticed something amiss.

Nice read, VW might be in damage control mode stage 2

[Motu]

It's just American emissions crap - a lot of manufacturers can't be bothered, and so America doesn't get a wide variety of models as other countries. But you can buy a huge gas guzzling truck to do those important chores easily done with less emissions in a VW TDI.

[Moi]

Nice read, VW might be in damage control mode stage 2

Did wonder what Gary Larson's mad scientists would make of this? Found this (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Tg_KfLwiSM8/THqT-ipKX_I/AAAAAAAAAkA/kzSD16qnCs4/s1600/FarSideCownCar.gif) and thought it summed it up nicely...

[Voltaire]

This is no different to bike manufacturers retarding ignition maps to pass noise regs.
The VW engines and others are very good and very clean. However for a Cat converter to work properly and efficiently it has to be hot. So an extra map is included when under test to burn fuel in the exhaust to get the CAT hot enough to pass emmisions. During driving once engine is hot it doesn't need this so its switched off.
Cummins IGX engines do the same by injecting diesel into the exhaust to make it hot enough for the emmisons control processes to work.
The general public is so dumbed down they haven't a hope in hell of understanding this so have been hoodwinked by media and the Elite. VW was just about to go mainstream with Electric car infrastructure in China to tune of 22 Billion dollars, coincidentally the same as their emmisions cheat fine.... make of that what you will.....

I wondered why a couple of Ducatis I have bought over the years were so high geared, was told it was to pass noise emissions, who knows.
Funny America being the second largest user of coal power making a big deal about it...

Usual supporting link :innocent:
http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map113_ver5.pdf

[AllanB]

Mrs B has a late model VW Golf GT (petrol) bloody great car. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Emission shit be dammed.

[nerrrd]

It's just American emissions crap - a lot of manufacturers can't be bothered, and so America doesn't get a wide variety of models as other countries.

Motorcycles too - Honda are still selling the NC700 in the States for this very reason, apparently, while everyone else has had the upgraded 750 version for a year or so now.

[sidecar bob]

Mrs B has a late model VW Golf GT (petrol) bloody great car. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Emission shit be dammed.

My mrs has a Current model Audi (same platform as an equivalent VW), I am extremely impressed with it, & that from a BMW tech of 25 years.
They are certainly building great products & a bit of political bullshit doesn't change my opinion on that.

[vifferman]

The VW engines and others are very good and very clean. However for a Cat converter to work properly and efficiently it has to be hot. So an extra map is included when under test to burn fuel in the exhaust to get the CAT hot enough to pass emmisions. During driving once engine is hot it doesn't need this so its switched off.
Cummins IGX engines do the same by injecting diesel into the exhaust to make it hot enough for the emmisons control processes to work.
VW TDi does that periodically too, apparently to help stop the cat from coking up. It's not a test feature, but based on feedback from the sensor in the cat. Reeeoww!
As for this scandal, as a Passat TDi owner, I'm not too concerned about it. The car is pretty economical (about the same as my VFR), has loads of torque (350 mutant-eaters from 1500 rpm to 4000, IIRC), and is lovely to drive. Yeah, the R36 might have been better, but I couldn't find a low-mileage clean one when I was looking around. The one thing that does REALLY piss me off is the ever-increasing RUCs; it makes no sense lumping it in with 3.5 tonne trucks, and so (apart from the torque for towing etc) I might as well have bought a petroleum powered PissRat. The overall running cost is similar, but the exceptional economy is negated by the tax, instead of being a bonus. :(

As for Seat, Audi, Skoda - yes, they use the same donks, but as a premium product, Audi have some that aren't used by the others, to retain some exclusivity.

[Stylo]

VW TDi does that periodically too, apparently to help stop the cat from coking up. It's not a test feature, but based on feedback from the sensor in the cat. Reeeoww!
As for this scandal, as a Passat TDi owner, I'm not too concerned about it. The car is pretty economical (about the same as my VFR), has loads of torque (350 mutant-eaters from 1500 rpm to 4000, IIRC), and is lovely to drive. Yeah, the R36 might have been better, but I couldn't find a low-mileage clean one when I was looking around. The one thing that does REALLY piss me off is the ever-increasing RUCs; it makes no sense lumping it in with 3.5 tonne trucks, and so (apart from the torque for towing etc) I might as well have bought a petroleum powered PissRat. The overall running cost is similar, but the exceptional economy is negated by the tax, instead of being a bonus. :(

As for Seat, Audi, Skoda - yes, they use the same donks, but as a premium product, Audi have some that aren't used by the others, to retain some exclusivity.

Your tax problems aside, you might have missed the point mate.

[Voltaire]

Mrs B has a late model VW Golf GT (petrol) bloody great car. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. Emission shit be dammed.

My T4 van has 300 000kms, I'd have bought another but they are too expensive...ah well make do with a 230 HP Subaru turbo with a towbar...:(

T4 is for sale soon.

[buggerit]

A decade old family feud, boardroom coups, takeover battles and now the realisation of the manipulated diesel emissions tests in the U.S. ( and Europe too it's been suggested ) that could run into the tens of billions in costs.

Not a good week for Volkswagen, and it ain't gonna get any better. This is just the start .

Not like the Germans to gas people:confused:

[Voltaire]

BMW said it did not manipulate or rig any emissions tests. “There is no function to recognise emissions testing cycles at BMW. All emissions systems remain active outside the testing cycles,” a statement said.


11 times


- the amount by which BMW's X3 model exceeded EU emissions limits

Juergen Pieper, a Frankfurt-based motor industry analyst, said: “There is no suggestion BMW has done anything illegal. There are concerns for the long-term damage for every manufacturer that builds cars with these engines.”


its turning into Krautgate

[vifferman]

Your tax problems aside, you might have missed the point mate.
Nope. Just didn't have much to say about it that hasn't already been said on the webs or here. I did think VW NZ's response was a bit muted, but then I guess they're waiting for head office to tell them what the official line is.
Now that I've had some time to digest what's alleged(?) to have happened, I'm a bit disappointed. Yes, the supposedly clean-running of the TDi engine did have some influence on my buying decision. But.... on the other hand, if a compliant version of the engine maps was rolled out to NZ (assuming NZ models are affected), I'd be reluctant to accept it if it resulted in a significant performance hit. Selfish? Yup, I guess so. But it would be a case of the car I bought not being quite what I thought it was. So... I can see how Mrkns might be feeling and reacting.

VW America has always been a bit different to the rest of the world. Their cars are made in America, and not always up to the Euro standards and features, which causes them to get a bit pissy, when they miss out on new releases such as the Golf R Variant (wagon), because it's deemed to be a model that wouldn't sell in Mrka. I'm not sure either that (outside of Californicatia) they really give a rat's about emissions, and if they do, it's less important than HP or cupholders.

[pritch]

Interestingly, the supplier of uniforms to the Nazi's was none other than Hugo Boss.

Well, one of their suppliers. Also the supplier of the frames of my newest reading glasses. Every time I look at the case I think, "As supplied to the Gestapo".
As you say, time heals.

[Lightbulb]

And here I was hoping that the price of a new VW would drop to affordable levels.
Some top people have already resigned, no doubt more to follow. Some have been really bright and very clever people.
Neil

[Voltaire]

Well, The Shareholder want profits, the upper levels of the Corporation set the targets and the middle managers put the pressure on and the minions do what is required to meet the

requirements.

Unlikely they will find a document from a designer stating they found a way thru software to sense the vehicle was being tested and run leaner ( or whatever diesels do).

Probably say, software that reduces emmissions under certain conditions where said emissions may be detrimental.

That would be an easier box to tick off.

[FROSTY]

Theres a chicken and egg issue in all this.
IF VW hadn't cheated the tests would they have sold so many cars?
So then would they be as profitable?
Therefore would they have the money to invest in new technology?
They got where they are with the features they have because of profitability partially funded by the US market share.
What will be interesting to see is how they recover now they have to play on a relatively level playing field.
My prediction is the R ad D currently in the pipeline will continue but theres going to be a 5-10year slump in development similar to the slump after japan got hit by the last major tidal wave

[BMWST?]

the emmisions profile of diesels is well known.That vw somehow had diesels in America that were outside these limits must have been a question mark,esp as seeing a lot of other euro diesels are not sold there.Meanwhile you have these 6 or 7 litre diesel "utes" spewing kilo grams of soot from their overfueled engines.Hypocrisy much?

[J.A.W.]

Diesel cars really are stupid, stinky toys for boring people, & pump out filthy toxic-carcinogenic particulates..

Diesels are best suited for large, steady-running industrial applications.

Ask yourself if you'd want a diesel bike..

VW group sporty car maker Porsche used to claim..
.. that the exhaust from their petrol car - driving in in Los Angeles - was cleaner than the air entering the engine..

[sidecar bob]

v
Diesel cars really are stupid, stinky toys for boring people, & pump out filthy toxic-carcinogenic particulates..

Diesels are best suited for large, steady-running industrial applications.

Ask yourself if you'd want a diesel bike..

VW group sporty car maker Porsche used to claim..
.. that the exhaust from their petrol car - driving in in Los Angeles - was cleaner than the air entering the engine..

Said the chap that's never driven a common rail turbo diesel ever.

[R650R]

Diesels can be much cleaner than petrol and are less carconigenic. The Nazi's actually tried gassing jews during WWII with diesel truck engines and it just didn't work.
Diesel is heavily taxed to make it an unatrractive option as its tooe asy to make your own'diesel' fuel with vegetable oil and leftover cooking fat....
I drove a diesel 2.5L BMW in UK and its engine was amazing and very grunty.

[Laava]

Diesel cars really are stupid, stinky toys for boring people, & pump out filthy toxic-carcinogenic particulates..

Diesels are best suited for large, steady-running industrial applications.

Ask yourself if you'd want a diesel bike..

VW group sporty car maker Porsche used to claim..
.. that the exhaust from their petrol car - driving in in Los Angeles - was cleaner than the air entering the engine..

Another two weeks coming up for you? Shall I say goodbye now? Bye fucknuckle!

[J.A.W.]

Sure, turbo diesels can offer a short, punchy powerband, but this wears a bit thin..
( & the non-linear accelerator response can catch you out too, creeping imperceptably up over the speed limit - if not using cruise-control.)


The issue VW is having - is due to the filthy diesel needing urea solution injection for emission control, ( ammonia/NOx catalyst values)
& while do-able for steady state industrial use, this is problematic for regular car-type use - frequently driven with a wide variation in power setting applications/exhaust temperature variations..
so, hence the 'cheat mode' test over-rides VW employed ( & are now busted for doing).

Diesel mills for ordinary car use are a false-economy folly..

[sidecar bob]

Sure, turbo diesels can offer a short, punchy powerband, but this wears a bit thin..
( & the non-linear accelerator response can catch you out too, creeping imperceptably up over the speed limit - if not using cruise-control.)

.

You really wouldn't have a fuckin clue would you. The short punchy powerband? What the fuck are you on about? Aincent Japanese two strokes?
Once again, you have never driven a Golf turbo diesel, you make that perfectly clear by your ignorance on the topic.
I know I am correct because you could not be more wrong if your life depended on it.
These things pull like a fuckin train from an absolute standstill right through to the redline & have more torque than a 911 thread.
Go & test drive one today so you can stop making a fool of yourself & speak from expierence, rather than dragging shit out of your arse.

[J.A.W.]

You really wouldn't have a fuckin clue would you. The short punchy powerband? What the fuck are you on about? Aincent Japanese two strokes?
Once again, you have never driven a Golf turbo diesel, you make that perfectly clear by your ignorance on the topic.
I know I am correct because you could not be more wrong if your life depended on it.


Now, Renault are working on a 2-stroke diesel to overcome some of these issues, as it happens..

But, I have driven various current Euro-diesels ( inc M-B) & they are, by comparison to decent petrol power, just stinky short-shift shit..

[nodrog]

Now, Renault are working on a 2-stroke diesel to overcome some of these issues, as it happens..

But, I have driven various current Euro-diesels ( inc M-B) & they are, by comparison to decent petrol power, just stinky short-shift shit..

I loved you in that Alicia Silverstone movie.

[J.A.W.]

I loved you in that Alicia Silverstone movie.

Batmobile wasn't a diesel..

& does Ferrari sell such a stinker?

[sidecar bob]

Now, Renault are working on a 2-stroke diesel to overcome some of these issues, as it happens..

But, I have driven various current Euro-diesels ( inc M-B) & they are, by comparison to decent petrol power, just stinky short-shift shit..

Because you were trying to drive it like a petrol & rev the fuck out of it.

[J.A.W.]

Because you were trying to drive it like a petrol & rev the fuck out of it.

Sure, why not, its not a bloody truck, is it? - Ah.. wait on.. yeah, it is.. fairly bloody truck like..

& of course, this is the root cause of the VW diesel emissions cheat problem.. trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear..

[Tazz]

I'd still buy one. I have an old Merc diesel at the moment. Coming up 400,000ks. Bit asthmatic without the turbo but shits all over any petrol vehicles I've owned economy wise. Something like $40 to Chch from Picton including RUC.

Turbo diesels are the tits!



1)Emissions
2)fuel efficiency
3)crash testing.
4)performance

we already have proof of cheating in one area. Im betting fuel efficiency is the next one

Already doing the fuel really by driving around like a slug, and claimed HP figures have been questionable for years for a lot of brands, particularly shithouse American petrol V8 ones afaik :facepalm:

Don't know about the crash testing though. Most countries seem pretty on the ball with that.


I'd rather take something with a VW diesel engine over something with a GM ignition lock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_General_Motors_recall

:laugh: Fuckin a! Was it Jeep's that can be hacked as well?
Never mind that though, the armchair environmentalist approach makes money so we can't let people get away with anything in that arena.


It's just American emissions crap - a lot of manufacturers can't be bothered, and so America doesn't get a wide variety of models as other countries. But you can buy a huge gas guzzling truck to do those important chores easily done with less emissions in a VW TDI.

They're pretty quick little things too. Paid a mate out in Aus for driving a Polo (while not being a hair dresser). Took me for a blat and with minor tweaks that little diesel was still lighting up in 3rd.


http://dearbrookblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/ali-g-respect.jpg

[Tazz]

Also, America is pretty concerned about emissions aye so maybe they're right to keep out foreign imports.....


http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/037dc70c90c6ffaa7b311aff9e833747.jpg

[Woodman]

You really wouldn't have a fuckin clue would you. The short punchy powerband? What the fuck are you on about? Aincent Japanese two strokes?
Once again, you have never driven a Golf turbo diesel, you make that perfectly clear by your ignorance on the topic.
I know I am correct because you could not be more wrong if your life depended on it.
These things pull like a fuckin train from an absolute standstill right through to the redline & have more torque than a 911 thread.
Go & test drive one today so you can stop making a fool of yourself & speak from expierence, rather than dragging shit out of your arse.

I don't think the poor wee tyke is old enough to drive, well at least not mentally anyway.

[ellipsis]

...my son just bought a VW turbo diesel in the UK...got it for a song as the fairly newish, vehicle was, in the owners opinion, the worst piece of sluggish, shit he'd ever owned and was happy to pass it on cheaply, to a new mug...after removing a kink in the throttle linkage and a little lubrication, my son reckons he has one very cool and punchy little runabout and that all the previous owners mates, probably hate VW turbo diesels now...

[caspernz]

Sure, turbo diesels can offer a short, punchy powerband, but this wears a bit thin..
( & the non-linear accelerator response can catch you out too, creeping imperceptably up over the speed limit - if not using cruise-control.)


The issue VW is having - is due to the filthy diesel needing urea solution injection for emission control, ( ammonia/NOx catalyst values)
& while do-able for steady state industrial use, this is problematic for regular car-type use - frequently driven with a wide variation in power setting applications/exhaust temperature variations..
so, hence the 'cheat mode' test over-rides VW employed ( & are now busted for doing).

Diesel mills for ordinary car use are a false-economy folly..

Take a spin in a 2.0 TDi with a 6 or 7 speed DSG box and you'd be amazed :laugh:

[J.A.W.]

Take a spin in a 2.0 TDi with a 6 or 7 speed DSG box and you'd be amazed :laugh:


Amazed? By that awful short-shift rapid thump-thump-thump upshift sequence, followed by an equally annoying clunk-clunk-clunk back down again.. nah..

Even the smooth ( real auto) M-B diesel, while punchy, lacks the creamy, satisfying long-legged, rev-out driveability - of its proper petrol sister machine.

[Stylo]

Amazed? By that awful short-shift rapid thump-thump-thump upshift sequence, followed by an equally annoying clunk-clunk-clunk back down again.. nah..

Even the smooth ( real auto) M-B diesel, while punchy, lacks the creamy, satisfying long-legged, rev-out driveability - of its proper petrol sister machine.

Take a drive in the CX5 Diesel Mazda, alloy block and twin turbo - 420 NM of twist, more than my piece of shit BA2 Falcon XR6 had. It always squeaked or had a rattle somewhere. No fond memories.

Back to the subject ,I bet it was a little quiet at the VW dealers in NZ today too. Evidently VW vehicles in this country have been tarred by the same brush as in the US, and now the UK. The plot thickens .

I noticed in the Christchurch Press today there were no VW advertisements from the dealers hmmm. Feel sorry for them, the shit's going to be kicked around for a little while yet.

[Tazz]

Take a drive in the CX5 Diesel Mazda, alloy block and twin turbo - 420 NM of twist, more than my piece of shit BA2 Falcon XR6 had. It always squeaked or had a rattle somewhere. No fond memories.

That's an impressive amount of torque from factory for a 2.2l. The old yota 1HD-FTE's only produce a smidge more than that, and they are 4.2l.

Can't beat the coal burners for towing that's for sure.

[Swoop]

And here I was hoping that the price of a new VW would drop to affordable levels.
It will. Probably by Monday next week!

I see the head of the Beetle Empire has been appointed to sort the mess out. Presumably he will ban VW's and insist that Porsche 911's be given production precedence...

[J.A.W.]

I don't think the poor wee tyke is old enough to drive, well at least not mentally anyway.

How curious.. I replied in idiom to this off topic post yesterday..
My post was excised, & an infringement applied by Gremlin for "taking the thread off topic"!
Yet the original 'off topic' post remains in instu & apparently unsanctioned..

Anyhow, the CARB (California Air Resources Board) regulations are unlikely to be directly relevant to local VW functional characteristics.

There have been instances reported however, of diesel cars shutting down & not starting again when run out of the injected emissions control urea solution.
The VW software then requires an official code reboot by an authorised tech, which may (likely) be an expensive call out.

This event is of course flagged by dash alert warnings, which are ignored at the owner/operators risk/cost.

[Tazz]

http://i.imgur.com/my0XLCS.jpg

[Banditbandit]

http://www.financelol.com/c/635787268457450000.jpeg

[TheDemonLord]

On this subject - does anyone remember when Audi won Le Mans with a Diesel powered car?

[sidecar bob]

On this subject - does anyone remember when Audi won Le Mans with a Diesel powered car?

Which time?

[vifferman]

Amazed? By that awful short-shift rapid thump-thump-thump upshift sequence, followed by an equally annoying clunk-clunk-clunk back down again.. nah..
I dunno what DSG box you've experienced, but neither of our Dubbies are like that. The shifts are almost imperceptible (understandable, given that they occur in 0.2 seconds), even when changing manually. No thumping, and in "D" the shifting's quite leisurely. Admittedly, the Golf (1.4 Turboed petrol engine) is a bit frenetic in "S", whereas the Passat TDi is the opposite: a bit sluggish in "D" and quite normal in "S". There are two (only 2) drawbacks I've found in the Passat with the DSG box: the 50,000km service costs a wee bit, because the 5litres of BabyLesbianAfghaniFurSealPenguinWhale oil is summat like $60/litre. The second I've experienced only once: backing a heavy trailer up a steep driveway. Because I'm not a hugely experienced trailer backer (and visibility was shit), the clutches slipped too much. Ended up driving up forwards and turning around at the top. However (but!) the new Passat has a feature of the AutoPark that autobacks a trailer. The AutoPark's a cracker too: the Vifferbabe can now parallel park like a pro, with or without her wand. We didn't realise till recentlyish that it also has a "Unpark" feature, but she's never needed to use that (nor the one for parking on the right-hand side of the road (like on one-way streets).
One thing that sorta bemused me was the Passat has too many gear-changing choices: "D", "S", Tiptronic, and 'flappy paddles'. I like the latter, but the tiptronic gets only occasional use and I could manage perfectly happily without it.

[J.A.W.]

I dunno what DSG box you've experienced, but neither of our Dubbies are like that. The shifts are almost imperceptible (understandable, given that they occur in 0.2 seconds), even when changing manually. No thumping, and in "D" the shifting's quite leisurely. Admittedly, the Golf (1.4 Turboed petrol engine) is a bit frenetic in "S", whereas the Passat TDi is the opposite: a bit sluggish in "D" and quite normal in "S"


It was a couple of different Audi machines including a TT & a Q-type diesel.. but both presented in the same abrupt way..

The racing Audi diesels were able to exploit the significant capacity & turbo-boost advantages allowed over the petrol opposition too..

[vifferman]

That's an impressive amount of torque from factory for a 2.2l. The old yota 1HD-FTE's only produce a smidge more than that, and they are 4.2l.

Can't beat the coal burners for towing that's for sure.
The 2015 TDi Passat has various models with various states of tune, with the most powerful of the (most common) 1968cc models turning out 176kW and 500Nm. "Chip tunes" and the like can boost the output an impressive amount, if you don't care about your warranty. It makes them a relaxed driver, with (in the model I've got) a flat torque curve (is that a misnomer?) from 1750 to 3500 RPM. Despite owning it for over three years, I still haven't got used to letting it tootle along at not much more than idle; it just seems wrong! So, I usually use "S" so it feels more like a 'normal' car, and tend to use 'D' on the highway, as in 'S' it won't shift into 6th unless it's Autobahning or over about 107km/h or so.

[Tazz]

^^ that is more torque than an LS2 :cool: (which is a 6L V8)


On this subject - does anyone remember when Audi won Le Mans with a Diesel powered car?

They've done it a bunch of times in 3 different 'models'.

Keeping in line with the extra cost of diesel maintenance compared to petrol for us in the pleb diesels, the first one was costing (well, funded) well in excess of 10 million a season. Ouch.

Anyone unsure of diesel performance could learn a bit from looking up the specs, reason for use and actual race results.


I dunno what DSG box you've experienced,

None. They either think all diesels are geared like trucks or think a 'small' rev range means more gear changes, never mind ratios.

Simply put, not worth the effort man ;)

[TheDemonLord]

Which time?

2006 is the one I remember

[sidecar bob]

^^ that is more torque than an LS2 :cool: (which is a 6L V8)



Oh. . . I heard they were peaky & had a short powerband. :msn-wink:

[Tazz]

Oh. . . I heard they were peaky & had a short powerband. :msn-wink:

:laugh:

I have to eat part of my hat on that though sadly, they're actually 50 N.m shy.
At least I can remember the important stuff like how long you need to microwave 2 minute noodles for.

Still wayyyy more torque than an LS1 though!

[J.A.W.]

:laugh:

I have to eat part of my hat on that though sadly, they're actually 50 N.m shy.
At least I can remember the important stuff like how long you need to microwave 2 minute noodles for.

Still wayyyy more torque than an LS1 though!


"Wayyyy more torque..."

Not really.. that torque is a function of large cubes pumped up to very high pressures, & it is only available over a very short rpm range..
& that means both a weighty mill, & heavy, complex transmission to do anything useful with it.. again, fine for trucks, but who'd want a diesel bike?

[sidecar bob]

I dunno what DSG box you've experienced, but neither of our Dubbies are like that.

None, He googled what someone thought they might drive like, nobody that's actually driven one would describe them as he did.

[Laava]

None, He googled what someone thought they might drive like, nobody that's actually driven one would describe them as he did.

That is what I would expect from someone who is aspiring to wear undies!

[imdying]

I dunno what DSG box you've experienced, but neither of our Dubbies are like that. The shifts are almost imperceptible (understandable, given that they occur in 0.2 seconds), even when changing manually. No thumping, and in "D" the shifting's quite leisurely.Agreed, no shifting complaints here. In fact, the complete opposite. Most of the time you've shifted into 6th without noticing it, but if you give it grief in manual mode it's actually really fun.

I did worry initally that it seemed it would be expensive to break, but recently the arse dropped out of the price VW charge for clutch packs, and a mechanic friend has one which he absolutely rapes the ever loving shite out of. Everywhere. I'm surprised he still has a license. Shitty eurotrash VW or not, I actually feel bad for the poor car. If can't make a DSG explode, then I'm pretty sure it'll out live me.

As much as I fucking hate the GTi (poorest example of a drivers car I've driven yet... a 1.5litre SOHC Corolla wagon from the 80s has better throttle response), I have to begrudgingly have to admit the DSG itself is fucking awesome, and I wish my any (all) of motorbikes had one. The launch control is perhaps a little too fun too :shifty:

/edit: I bet a DSG diesel would be fuckin' awesome to drive... you could ride peak torque right up to some obscene sort of speed :D

[sidecar bob]

I think Honda tried what could be described as a DSG some time back in a bike application. I cant remember the details but I saw a schematic in a magazine.
Porsche call it a PDK just because they're special.

[SPman]

I thought the VFR1200 had a form of DSG - it's got a dual clutch set up in one option.

[AllanB]

The 'auto' Honda 1200 has a double clutch jobbie. Did they come to NZ? Prob not, we'd slag them off as not 'real bikes'

[Laava]

The new africa twin has a dct option on it's top spec model

[Ender EnZed]

The NC700 can come with it as well.

[BMWST?]

stick yer dsg.My manual(6 spd) bmw diesel 120d was awesome.Overgeared for NZ, wasnt really worth changing into 6th till over 100 ks,and driving round welly suburbs it could fall off the turbo,even in first.Was bloody economical too

[Robbo]

About Gas Emissions.....

[Voltaire]

As my Manager in Cork said they day I got a new VW Passat Diesel in 2003 " Diesel is for Fecking tractors"

Hasn't its popularity only come around in Europe due to the tax set up? I remember in France they were in the majority once due to tax.

Had a Citroen 1900 BX sumthing or rather as a company car in London once...about a memorable as BMW K bike :laugh:

My 2001 VW Transporter 2.5TDI is coming up for sale soon as I have bought a car <_<

[swarfie]

My 2001 VW Transporter 2.5TDI is coming up for sale soon as I have bought a car <_<

Diesel? :lol:

How ya going to transport the Bavarian Tractor?

[Voltaire]

Diesel? :lol:

How ya going to transport the Bavarian Tractor?

Don't make fun of my sidecar project :innocent:
http://www.lilligren.com/Redneck/images/redneck_tractor_balancer.jpg

[swarfie]

That Ford probably wasn't made in Bavaria:clap:

[Stylo]

Guess every dog has it's day , Holden Captiva got a good review here, as an aside.

Pronounced 'Craptiva' in Ozzie evidently,





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWA2Ls1-AaI

[neels]

Guess every dog has it's day , Holden Captiva got a good review here, as an aside.

Pronounced 'Craptiva' in Ozzie evidently,





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWA2Ls1-AaI

No great surprises there. The holden trax gets a mention too, I drove the opel equivalent overseas, what a god awful heap of shit. I suspect their fuel economy figure is partly assisted by the fact that it switches itself off when waiting at the lights, found the button to stop that crap straight away.

[Edbear]

I think I'll stick to my Outlander PHEV.

If towing, I'd go for a turbo Diesel, but for my use, it's got the power of a 3lt V6 and the running costs of a Honda Jazz.

Very comfortable, eerily quiet, roomy, all the bells and whistles you could want and I like it.

[TheDemonLord]

The question is - how is this going to effect HD?

Afterall - they are the biggest diesel vehicle maker in the US

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:: laugh:

[J.A.W.]

That Ford probably wasn't made in Bavaria:clap:

Why would it be? Ford Germany is HQ'd in Cologne, not Munich.. & VW HQ is in Wolfsburg, which is not in Bavaria, either..

& weren't BMW bikes - built in Berlin, anyhow?

[Voltaire]

Why would it be? Ford Germany is HQ'd in Cologne, not Munich.. & VW HQ is in Wolfsburg, which is not in Bavaria, either..

& weren't BMW bikes - built in Berlin, anyhow?

East Berlin I think, here is an early model, I believe they copied them off the Russians.
http://www.autogallery.org.ru/k/ma/56m72mio.jpg

VW...they used to make them in Berlin.
http://www.dday-overlord.com/img/vehi/kubelwagen.jpg

[Swoop]

.......................
316325

[J.A.W.]

.......................
316325

Yeah, well - at least those ex-Nazi Commies knew how to build a thing 1/2 well, unlike the Commies screwing together Guzzis, Leylands & Ladas..

[pzkpfw]

East Berlin I think, here is an early model, I believe they copied them off the Russians.
...

It was the Soviets who copied German bikes. (And they on sold the designs to the Chinese).

[Stylo]

The flow on effects will be far reaching, this is going to be a doozy.

7/10/15 UK time


The new boss of Volkswagen has warned staff in Wolfsburg that 'painful' cuts are on the way, as the car-making giant tightens it belts to ride out the storm of the diesel emissions scandal. CEO Matthias Mueller told 20,000 staff gathered in production hall 11 at the German HQ: 'It is not possible to quantify the commercial and financial implications at present. That is why we have initiated a further critical review of all planned investments. Anything that is not absolutely necessary will be cancelled or postponed... To be perfectly frank: this will not be a painless process.

Casualties will include all non-core spending, and it is likely that nice-to-haves such as sponsorships, motorsport and even niche new model programmes (Bugatti Chiron hypercar, anyone?) could be cut or put on hold. Mueller stressed that the company was doing all it could to fix the emissions crisis and said that production remained in full swing, as current-generation EU6 diesels are unaffected.

VW has also appointed a new boss of the supervisory board; former finance chief Hans Dieter Poetsch was voted in as the new chairman at an emergency board meeting on Wednesday 7 October.


UK sales figures published on Tuesday 6 October suggest that Volkswagen escaped any downturn in sales in September, traditionally the busiest month for new-car registrations. VW sales were up nearly 4% and overall British sales of diesels also rose by a similar amount. It will be interesting to see if those gains continue in October, as the full scale of VW's problems becomes apparent.



VW emissions scandal: the UK owners' perspective

The Government has confirmed that UK tax rates won't change on Volkswagen, Audi, Skoda and Seat models affected by the emissions scandal - even if the remedial software fix due in October 2015 adversely affects the cars' CO2 ratings. The news comes as comfort to owners worried their VED and company car tax would rise if tweaked ECUs raised carbon dioxide emissions.

The VW group has announced 1.2 million British cars are affected by the #dieselgate scandal and it is rapidly working on a fix for the EA189 diesel engine family; the company is sourcing ownership details from the DVLA and will write to all affected owners. The UK is more exposed than any other country apart from Germany, which has 2.8m cars needing remedial action.

Volkswagen has already suspended the sale of 4000 cars in the UK, all using the EU5 emissions-standard motor. It continues to sell models with the later EU6 compliant engine, which does not use the so-called 'defeat device' cheat software uncovered in the US.

The full list of affected cars is now public

Audi admitted 2.1 million of its cars ran the 'defeat device' in engines' ECUs, Skoda has 1.2m cars, Seat 700,000, there are 1.8m VW vans - plus the 5m VW cars originally identified. Glass's Guide pricing experts reveal a drop in used VW residual values of up to 3% here, as buyers worry over the iffy software used to bypass diesel emissions tests in the US.

Poll: will scandal affect VW loyalty?

What will happen to my Volkswagen?

Officials are keen to stress this is a service action to 'refit' cars, not a full recall. It's a technicality, but full-blown recalls are reserved in the UK for safety-related issues. VW will write to affected owners and offer a retro-fit upgrade to their diesel car. Owners will take their car to a main dealer and VW will upgrade the ECU to eliminate the problem software free of charge, it claims. But the CEO has now confirmed that some cars will need additional physical engineering changes as well as a software reflash.

Models affected include all Golf Mk6, Passat Mk7, Tiguan Mk1 diesels, which are 'equipped exclusively with type EA189 diesel engines.' Audis affected are some A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5 models, it has been confirmed. Skoda and Seat have yet to reveal a full model breakdown, but it is likely to be similar models based on the group MQB architecture.

From Porsche to top VW group job: Matthias Mueller




The new group boss of Volkswagen certainly has his hands full. Wolfsburg announced sweeping boardroom changes on Friday 25 September: Porsche leader Matthias Mueller (above) is the new CEO of Volkswagen AG and has pledged that his first priority is to clean up the company with a major restructure, new personnel and emergency actions to restore faith among the 80 million Volkswagen owners worldwide.

Dr Herbert Diess, CEO of the VW car division, said: 'We are working at full speed on a technical solution that we will present to partners, to our customers and to the public as swiftly as possible. Our aim is to inform our customers as quickly as possible, so that their vehicles comply fully with regulations. I assure you that Volkswagen will do everything humanly possible to win back the trust of our customers, the dealerships and the public.'


The story so far

VW has been embroiled in a storm after US emissions bodies discovered 2.0-litre diesel engines used a hidden special 'cheat cycle' when placed on a laboratory testbed (the cars can tell because the front wheels are spinning on a dynometer while the rears are stationary).

A simple recall story in the US has rapidly escalated into a full-blown global scandal, with American authorities threatening a robust $18 billion fine, VW shares plummeting by a third, Switzerland banning sales of affected diesels (and Italian VW Group dealers following suit, with an eye on potential recall costs) and Wolfsburg hastily committing to the recall of nearly half a million vehicles in the US, and probably more elsewhere in the world. This is a fast-moving story and the latest developments are:
•Former finance boss Hans Dieter Poetsch voted as new VW chairman

•VW confirms all non-essential spending will be cut or suspended
•Government confirms no change to UK car tax if CO2 rises in fix
•Interbrand says VW has dropped 9% in its Best Global Brands report 2015
•UK has 1.2 million affected cars
•Glass's Guide reveals 3% drop in residual value on VW diesels
•Scandal continues to batter VW's share price - down 35% in one week
•Audi admits 2.1 million of its cars used the 'cheat-mode' software
•700,000 Seats included, 1.2m Skodas, 1.8m VW vans
•VW says 5 million of its cars worldwide use the EA189 diesel engine
•EU5 engines only affected; EU6 diesels do not use 'defeat mode'
•'Some employees suspended', unclear which roles have been affected
•Porsche chief Matthias Mueller appointed new CEO of Volkswagen AG
•Reuters reports German prosecutors are investigating ex-CEO Martin Winterkorn
•Group restructured into four divisions: volume, premium, sports, CVs
•'Deluge' of UK Volkswagen owners complaining - newspaper reports
•BMW shares weaken, despite claims its diesel engines are compliant
•CEO Martin Winterkorn resigns on Wednesday 23 September
•See the earlier video statement by Winterkorn here
•Criminal probe by US Department of Justice likely
•More than €13 billion wiped from VW's market value
•VW sets aside €6.5 billion to fix the #dieselgate scandal
•Porsche SE, which owns 32% of VW, says it'll impact its results too
•Engine affected is 2.0-litre TDI Type EA189 in 11m cars worldwide
•US boss Michael Horn: 'We totally screwed up'
•The FT: 'Car industry faces Libor moment'

[Stylo]

This guy doesn't mince his words, he starts firing up at around the 6.05 mark.

Makes some good points ..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VZFP3lW4gU

[AllanB]

So after some weeks of this now has anybody pointed a finger at the emission standards that have to be met? They still pump out shit - they are just using precious metals to absorb it, run very lean engines and come up with annoying electronic shit like cutting the engine when at lights. Do we sleep better at night knowing this?

I'm internet surfing for some cans for the Ducati - do I care if they don't have a cat converter in them? Nah. I was talking to a NZ supplier of one brand - he can get cat ones - but stated all he sells in NZ are non cats........

[Stylo]

So after some weeks of this now has anybody pointed a finger at the emission standards that have to be met? They still pump out shit - they are just using precious metals to absorb it, run very lean engines and come up with annoying electronic shit like cutting the engine when at lights. Do we sleep better at night knowing this?

I'm internet surfing for some cans for the Ducati - do I care if they don't have a cat converter in them? Nah. I was talking to a NZ supplier of one brand - he can get cat ones - but stated all he sells in NZ are non cats........

Think they've always pumped out shit. This issue is about intentional deception.

And they've admitted it.

This is the gift that keeps on giving, be interesting to see the concessions they make in terms of brand deletion. SEAT might me having some sleepless nights. Ducati might be too.

Have sympathy for all the workers involved

[merv]

I've just got back from 2 weeks in England and Wales and this scandal was in the news just about very day. What's being spoken about is not just what Volkswagen did but how Europe as a whole has followed a bad strategy in pinning its hopes on clean diesels to lower emissions in the cities. The manufacturers said they were clean but in England they've been doing real world roadside tests and all the brands, BMW and Merc included, exceed the emissions standards by 5 times or more and what they are seeing is the cities getting more and more dirty smog filled air. Paris was said to be one of the worst now and all English cities were said to be getting worse. The diesels just pump soot. Follow any Audi diesel on the motorways as an example and when the driver hits the throttle to accelerate, out comes the huge cloud of black stuff. The worst car I followed was a Ford diesel. They said the cars are nowhere near as clean as trucks and buses which are big enough to have the gear fitted (whatever it is) to keep the emissions down.

So while compared to say an old petrol engine the diesels may be generating less CO and CO2 (the CO2 they blame for greenhouse effect) they do produce more NOx and plenty of soot, which is harder on humans immediately than the greenhouse effect is.

The Yanks had bad pollution issues in the 70's with petrol engines that they fixed it with emission rules, so along come catalytic converters and the like and Toyota making the Prius as examples. I first went to Los Angeles in 1980 and you couldn't see as far as the second set of traffic lights, whereas now the skies are quite clear most of the time. The CARB rules have been getting more stringent and hence the diesel cars just aren't as popular there.

Now until this scandal blew up I quite liked the diesels because they are grunty and economical. The rental car we just had was a Volvo V40 D4 Crosscountry 2 litre diesel with 8 speed auto. Now peak power on that is 140kw, but because of the torque it goes like a petrol engine with way more power, and it would do more than 1,100km on a tank of fuel of only 62 litres.

The question is can they clean the diesel up, or are petrol hybrids, fuel cells or electrics the future. I saw many Mercs over there that were Bluetec Hybrids - they are diesel with hybrid aren't they? So can they be as clean as the standards require?

All food for thought. I think the real issues is they caught Volkswagen lying, but the problem is are any of the manufacturers of diesels being honest because if I believe the Poms in the news they said the roadside testing says no, none of them meet the standard.

[Stylo]

Some of the older Jap diesels I see are poking out plenty of soot too.

Be interesting to see how this evolves, lot of politics involved too, guess that's how it started.

VW dealerships must be finding it a bit tough, no sympathy from me.

[Stylo]

Seems that Audi is in the mix too now. Petrol included.

Hope you haven't bought one recently ...

This is a blinder

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34712435

[AllanB]

It's all arse.

Line up every new car in a test and see how they really go.

Fucking Americans who pump out too much global shit telling the world how to run their cars.

Arses.

[sidecar bob]

Seems that Audi is in the mix too now. Petrol included.

Hope you haven't bought one recently ...

Sure have. And I couldn't give a shit, it's a very fine wee car.

[Stylo]

11 million cars and forecast 7.3 billion reparation costs,

Could now be as much as 87 billion, I think Volkswagen has a wee problem on it's hands


http://money.cnn.com/2015/11/10/autos/volkswagen-owners-buyback/

[Bass]

The worst car I followed was a Ford diesel. They said the cars are nowhere near as clean as trucks and buses which are big enough to have the gear fitted (whatever it is) to keep the emissions down.
.

Someone may already have explained this. If so, tell me and I'll delete this post.

The VW's CAN meet the standards. However, it requires a high rate of exhaust gas recycle to do so and this cuts the power output significantly.
They can't meet the standards AND generate claimed power simultaneously, so the car is set up to use its normal on-board sensors to detect when it's on a rolling road test rig and to turn on the full exhaust gas recycle when this is detected.

[Stylo]

Someone may already have explained this. If so, tell me and I'll delete this post.

The VW's CAN meet the standards. However, it requires a high rate of exhaust gas recycle to do so and this cuts the power output significantly.
They can't meet the standards AND generate claimed power simultaneously, so the car is set up to use its normal on-board sensors to detect when it's on a rolling road test rig and to turn on the full exhaust gas recycle when this is detected.

Deep breath, glass of water and an early night for you mate !

You'll feel much better in the morning, put your 'leccy blanket on first aye ?

Those super-sized caps instantly revealed your integrity status

[AllanB]

I may purchase shares in VW. Be a rich bastard when they bounce back.

[Tazz]

Someone may already have explained this. If so, tell me and I'll delete this post.

The VW's CAN meet the standards. However, it requires a high rate of exhaust gas recycle to do so and this cuts the power output significantly.
They can't meet the standards AND generate claimed power simultaneously, so the car is set up to use its normal on-board sensors to detect when it's on a rolling road test rig and to turn on the full exhaust gas recycle when this is detected.

I see where you're coming from in a way. Manufacturers have lied/embellished about safety features, HP and economy figures etc for years. It is just a bit more than putting optimistic numbers on paper and less socially accepted this time around I guess?

At the end of the day though, if it cannot meet it's advertised/stated emissions figures in real world conditions then those figures are simply incorrect.

Yota and Hyundai making diesel fuel pumps that shit themselves from the quality of fuel actually available, rather than the pristine shit they use in their test labs, is near as bad as this kurfuffle imo.

[AllanB]

Add motorcycle weights - dry, wet? added up from a computer working with a cad predicted weight? WTF really knows.

HP figures taken from the crank?

The last thing I really want though is some wanky organisation as a overseer dictating to all.

[AllanB]

Ford had a vehicle some years back running new on defective tyres that blew out ......

The difference is they recalled them. No cheating.


Suzuki denied denied and denied that the pistons in one of the Bandit years were not as per spec and smoked like a coal train. Turned out the oil ring holes were too large in the pistons. When pushed about oil consumption Suzuki reverted back to some stupid old well out of date 1950 acceptable industry standard for oil consumption. I understand Triumph have been guilty of hiding behind the same crap as well.

[neels]

I may purchase shares in VW. Be a rich bastard when they bounce back.
Thinking the same thing myself....

Anyway, it's all bollocks.

Manufacturers have been coming up with bullshit ways to create the right stats for vehicles for ages, the worst one I experienced was an Opel piece of shit that turned itself off at the traffic lights, I can only assume in a desperate attempt to meet the quoted mpg figure in the sales brochure.

All the VW people did was not put in a stupid additive tank to meet the requirements of protectionist bullshit anti diesel regulation in the good old USA, stick a 5 litre petrol v8 with a catalytic converter in there and you're all good. It's not about saving the enviroment, it's about saving jobs for americans in dinosaur industries.

[Bass]

Those super-sized caps instantly revealed your integrity status

Chuckle.

It reveals more about my lack of skill in running the site options as I don't care much about this one way or the other.

Was just trying to give some detail as to what VW had actually done, somewhat clumsily as it turns out.

Intriguing what can be read into a bit of punctuation - thanks for that.

[sidecar bob]

Thinking the same thing myself....

Anyway, it's all bollocks.

Manufacturers have been coming up with bullshit ways to create the right stats for vehicles for ages, the worst one I experienced was an Opel piece of shit that turned itself off at the traffic lights

Our virtually brand new Audi does that too. We start the car & hit the de activation switch every time & get on with driving it like a normal car.
Im wondering if the dealer can program it to be off all the time.

[Stylo]

Chuckle.

It reveals more about my lack of skill in running the site options as I don't care much about this one way or the other.

Was just trying to give some detail as to what VW had actually done, somewhat clumsily as it turns out.

Intriguing what can be read into a bit of punctuation - thanks for that.

No worries Bass, everything with a grain of salt, I'm not good on the technicalities either :-)

[JimO]

Our virtually brand new Audi does that too. We start the car & hit the de activation switch every time & get on with driving it like a normal car.
Im wondering if the dealer can program it to be off all the time.
does it start when you hit the gas or do you have to start it

[caspernz]

Our virtually brand new Audi does that too. We start the car & hit the de activation switch every time & get on with driving it like a normal car.
Im wondering if the dealer can program it to be off all the time.

Last time in Europe we had a rental Audi A4 that had the stop/start feature. Only thing that annoyed me was exactly what you mentioned above, every time you start it up defaults to stop/start...


does it start when you hit the gas or do you have to start it

It starts again when you release the brake pedal. But, it's still annoying if you wanna giddy up go onto a roundabout for example (bear in mind I've got a current XR6 Falcon which does this bit quite nicely) so it's best to switch this stop/start nonsense off at select times.

[pzkpfw]

Studies have shown the stop/start systems do wear out batteries quicker.

Batteries are not that nice on the environment, either.


(The auto wipers on my car already drive me nuts. Stop/start systems would be a definite reason for me to not buy a car.)

[caspernz]

Studies have shown the stop/start systems do wear out batteries quicker.

Batteries are not that nice on the environment, either.

Yes I'd venture cars thus equipped and driven extensively in urban stop/start mode will need batteries and starter motors much sooner compared to normal cars. But some greenie minded nitwit will no doubt love the stop/start thingeemeebob :tugger:

[Swoop]

I'm suspecting nissan are doing the same.
Following a late model ute today and the smokescreen being belched out the back would have made an 1800's era, coal-fired train's exhaust, look clean.
Luckily on the bike so quickly gtfo of there.

[caspernz]

I'm suspecting nissan are doing the same.
Following a late model ute today and the smokescreen being belched out the back would have made an 1800's era, coal-fired train's exhaust, look clean.
Luckily on the bike so quickly gtfo of there.

So I'm thinking, the truck I drive (MAN) is made by the VW group. The fuel economy on this unit is pretty sharp, maybe the Euro 5 claim only stacks up under certain conditions? In fairness though, the soot output seems minimal compared to older units. Current one is almost a year old with about 250,000 clicks.

[merv]

The Volvo I mentioned on the previous page we had in UK had the stop/start function and I couldn't turn it off soon enough but it also always defaulted to that mode each time you ran the car - what a ridiculous feature - imagine creeping along the waterfront at Blackpool for example where traffic was held up by pedestrians crossing at every corner and you are trying to creep say just a few metres at a time. Also you're just about to stop and the engine just cuts out as the car in front moves forward - it is totally ridiculous - at least a Prius moves on a decent flywheel sized electric motor not some poor little starter motor.

A starter motor normally say starts a car say two or three times a day not a flippin hundred or two :lol: . I presume they run on a standard ring gear too sheesh :mad:

[wildman]

Well i do have a disliking for German vehicles with their over complicated electronics and brittle plastic fittings and finish so HAHA to VW, but here's a short list of other vehicles on New Zealand roads with issues Nissan Navara utes break camshafts at 120ks, Ford Mondeo's that cut through the main dash loom as it runs across a razor sharp metal rail, Ford Ranger transmissions that start playing up at 30k's, mitsubishi cars that have to have a special solution sprayed into the intake system to reduce carbon build up, Toyota denso alternators that blow rectifiers at 40k's. Yep i love modern vehicles and check if you own or are thinking of buying a commercial vehicle out of Australia. There's a loop hole that allows their write offs to be repaired and put on the roads here, most of them have had some form of water damage.

[Stylo]

Well i do have a disliking for German vehicles with their over complicated electronics and brittle plastic fittings and finish so HAHA to VW, but here's a short list of other vehicles on New Zealand roads with issues Nissan Navara utes break camshafts at 120ks, Ford Mondeo's that cut through the main dash loom as it runs across a razor sharp metal rail, Ford Ranger transmissions that start playing up at 30k's, mitsubishi cars that have to have a special solution sprayed into the intake system to reduce carbon build up, Toyota denso alternators that blow rectifiers at 40k's. Yep i love modern vehicles and check if you own or are thinking of buying a commercial vehicle out of Australia. There's a loop hole that allows their write offs to be repaired and put on the roads here, most of them have had some form of water damage.

The difference is and, the reason for this thread is the intentional fraud from a major automobile manufacturer.

Every car maker has it's problems with various models as you've stated and we all know that.

You might be on the wrong page my friend.

[Daffyd]

I think it's naive to think that most or all manufacturers have, at one stage, done the same thing. It's just that VW got caught.

[jonbuoy]

Yes I'd venture cars thus equipped and driven extensively in urban stop/start mode will need batteries and starter motors much sooner compared to normal cars. But some greenie minded nitwit will no doubt love the stop/start thingeemeebob :tugger:

Not t o mention engine wear. Even hot stop starting can't be good for an engine, unless they come with an oil accumulator built in somewhere?

Manufacturers have been exaggerating and playing with performance and weight figures since forever. Emmisions are just taken a bit more seriously as everyone loves Polar Bears. Hard to believe that an instruction like that didn't come from the top.

[Moi]

Just when you thought it may be safe to wander into the forests of Wolfsburg to examine their automotive products...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8_gWN7iIag

Yeah, I know... bit of a thread dredge, but John is entertaining.

[Voltaire]

VW's as far as the eye can see, never to be driven again.
https://thehustle.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/xxx-40.jpg

I :love:my 2.5 TDI T4

[AllanB]

I really struggle with the Aussie accent.

[oldrider]

I really struggle with the Aussie accent.

So does he by the sound of it. :mellow: