Iam nz

[tamarillo]

If you have done your local ACC sponsored courses etc, and wonder what next for road riding skills, check out IAM. Check online at UK videos of police pursuit riders and their riding systems. This is the basis of IAM.

NZ site http://iam.org.nz/motorcycles/

[GrayWolf]

If you have done your local ACC sponsored courses etc, and wonder what next for road riding skills, check out IAM. Check online at UK videos of police pursuit riders and their riding systems. This is the basis of IAM.

NZ site http://iam.org.nz/motorcycles/

I've said this exact thing many times. Sadly, most here are far more interested in learning from 'track day' riding skills so they can 'go faster', rather than actual 'roadcraft'. They refuse to 'see' that track riding skills are not always the best thing on the highway.

[nzspokes]

I've said this exact thing many times. Sadly, most here are far more interested in learning from 'track day' riding skills so they can 'go faster', rather than actual 'roadcraft'. They refuse to 'see' that track riding skills are not always the best thing on the highway.

Roadcraft is no good to you if you cant get the motorcycle round the corner.

To the OP, you might want to say what IAM is so that dont can understand what you are on about.

[Katman]

Roadcraft is no good to you if you cant get the motorcycle round the corner.


With a few basic skills any bozo can get a bike around a corner.

Track time does very little to teach a person good observational skills and situational awareness - or for that matter, good old fashioned restraint.

[Gremlin]

Roadcraft is no good to you if you cant get the motorcycle round the corner.
However, reading a corner (forward observation, vanishing point, and position) is certainly part of getting a motorcycle around a corner, and that is indeed roadcraft.

[nzspokes]

However, reading a corner (forward observation, vanishing point, and position) is certainly part of getting a motorcycle around a corner, and that is indeed roadcraft.

Dont disagree of course. In fact all of which is part of Trackcraft if you want to call it that.

[FJRider]

I've said this exact thing many times. Sadly, most here are far more interested in learning from 'track day' riding skills so they can 'go faster', rather than actual 'roadcraft'. They refuse to 'see' that track riding skills are not always the best thing on the highway.

Perhaps if they painted a centerline on the track (and you were restricted to the left lane) ... and had random vehicles coming the other way ... it might seem more real ... :innocent:

[Blackbird]

Isn't it about time Cassina made an appearance? :whistle:

[T.W.R]

Isn't it about time Cassina made an appearance? :whistle:

Probably saw the thread name and thought it was someone being self-absorbed :rolleyes:

[tamarillo]

Roadcraft is no good to you if you cant get the motorcycle round the corner.

To the OP, you might want to say what IAM is so that dont can understand what you are on about.
Well, I figure if any rider has any motivation to improve there road riding, they could follow the link. There are some very good videos on YouTube and uk IAM site too.

As for getting around the corner, well I'll agree that the place to learn about your hikes capabilities and safe cornering ability is the track, and have enjoyed days there in training myself.
But the road is very different place, and once you know you can use the ability of your bike, next you need to learn where to be on road, how to identify and react to hazards etc etc.

Many a good experienced rider, one who is thought of as one to learn from, has found huge improvement from road craft training.

An ex UK police pursuit rider on his ST1300 makes a mockery of some of these so called experienced riders on smaller agile bikes over the takaka hill.

A friend commented that I take my riding seriously (I was in midst of the IAM work at time) and asked if its still fun. I thought about that and replied : hell yes I have huge fun, but riding a motorcycle on a public road is a bloody stupid thing to do when you think about how vulnerable we are, and how often we crash when it's all our own fault. So if I'm going to do something that stupid I better take it seriously.
I now enjoy my riding more than ever, and am still learning.

Each to their own, but truly believing you've got nothing to learn is the single biggest factor in likely hood of crashing, IMO.

[nzspokes]

100% agree with this, I would assess that perhaps 80% of those who attend track days do so for the fun factor.

Better rider training places than a track ie: the road, where the real shit happens. Thousands of road cones there, but you are not supposed to slalom through them.

What was the last training you did?

[BuzzardNZ]

To the OP, you might want to say what IAM is so that dont can understand what you are on about.

You're obviously very well trained in the butchery of written english :facepalm:

[Maha]

What was the last training you did?

Rotorua Marathon.

[nodrog]

Iam Weasel

[swbarnett]

.. riding a motorcycle on a public road is a bloody stupid thing to do when you think about how vulnerable we are,
Bullshit. By this reasoning living is a bloody stupid thing to do.

[nzspokes]

Rotorua Marathon.

Now that I dont believe.

[nzspokes]

Well, I figure if any rider has any motivation to improve there road riding, they could follow the link. There are some very good videos on YouTube and uk IAM site too.

As for getting around the corner, well I'll agree that the place to learn about your hikes capabilities and safe cornering ability is the track, and have enjoyed days there in training myself.
But the road is very different place, and once you know you can use the ability of your bike, next you need to learn where to be on road, how to identify and react to hazards etc etc.

Many a good experienced rider, one who is thought of as one to learn from, has found huge improvement from road craft training.

An ex UK police pursuit rider on his ST1300 makes a mockery of some of these so called experienced riders on smaller agile bikes over the takaka hill.

A friend commented that I take my riding seriously (I was in midst of the IAM work at time) and asked if its still fun. I thought about that and replied : hell yes I have huge fun, but riding a motorcycle on a public road is a bloody stupid thing to do when you think about how vulnerable we are, and how often we crash when it's all our own fault. So if I'm going to do something that stupid I better take it seriously.
I now enjoy my riding more than ever, and am still learning.

Each to their own, but truly believing you've got nothing to learn is the single biggest factor in likely hood of crashing, IMO.

Well to be fair those that want to be better riders will find a way to do so. I have sat on the edge of IAM for sometime and would like to do some proper work on it one day when time allows. I did by chance end up getting a basic evaluation ride with an observer and have taken what he has said on board.

As the saying goes, "Experience is a cruel teacher, you get the test before the lesson" . Track days like the ART days give you an environment to try different lines without trees, power poles and opposing traffic.

[GrayWolf]

Dont disagree of course. In fact all of which is part of Trackcraft if you want to call it that.

Actually the UK Police/IAM 'system' covers bike handling skills. I can assure you what another poster has said about an ex UK Police rider making a mockery over the 'taka's will be 100% correct. The UK drivers are a specific division {traffic} They 'in old UK films' were the ones driving the 'jam sandwich' {white car, red stripe} and had the 'twin tit's' on the roof, not the blue 'patrol car with a single 'tit'.
I months ago, posted a link showing a UK Police driver and a race driver going round a race track in a 'touring car', the rozzer was only 3 seconds slower, and they use a completely different driving technique.
Police do not heel/toe, they do not 'cross arms', but feed the wheel, maintaining two hand contact at all times {10 to and 10 past position}.
Race bike riding is about the best line etc, the police system operates from a safety first aspect. Going round a bend, for example, {basics} you stay out wide UNTIL the apex starts to open up, maximum vision round the bend, not 'best line'.
You can argue this until the cows come home, that trackcraft teaches better bike control, I doubt it, it teaches a different set of skills. If you read the quote below it sums up the difference, observe, anticipate and plan.

" The United Kingdom is leading the World in Law Enforcement Driver Training. Following the introduction of British Police Driving Schools in 1935, the next twenty years brought a dramatic decrease in collisions by Metropolitan Police drivers. The U.K. Government reported that police collisions dropped to a mere one-sixth of their previous amount. The United Kingdom utilizes a system of car control referred to as Roadcraft. The system was created specifically for the U.K. Police and was put together at the Metropolitan Police Driving School. The early success of the system led to the expansion on the civilian market in the 1950's. Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook has been available to the public since that time and numerous advanced driving schools have been available to the general public for decades. According to Eddie Wren, the executive director of Drive & Stay Alive, "The key factor is that this is no Johnny-come-lately scheme, dreamt up by a few individuals on the basis that it seems like a good method. It has been refined and improved for more than seventy years by collective thousands of the world's top public road driving experts. The fundamental aim of advanced driving is to utilize observations, anticipation and planning, to allow a driver to have adequate time to deal with any situation that might arise. This is applicable not only to genuinely good drivers, travelling within the relevant legal speed limits, but also to emergency personnel driving at very high speeds."

[nzspokes]

You can argue this until the cows come home, that trackcraft teaches better bike control, I doubt it, it teaches a different set of skills. If you read the quote below it sums up the difference, observe, anticipate and plan.
\

You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.

[GrayWolf]

You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.


So in that case one could extrapolate that, as the 'system' has been formulated, improved since 1935, racing schools have 'borrowed' from it.... just re-inforces what I am saying really, roadcraft, not 'trackcraft'. :bleh::bleh::bleh:

[Gremlin]

You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.
When you take all the courses, off road, track, road, you also need to look at who is writing them. CBTA for example has been heavily based on roadcraft. Roadcraft in one form or another (or elements of it) underpins almost any course (again, who is writing the course - often they have the same people behind them all...)

Roadcraft has pretty much been around since the 1930s. IAM UK was formed in the '50s by serving police officers after it worked for their drivers, and NZ was formed a year later (by one of the UK founders emigrating).

All methods have their place for training, and all have pros and cons and you have to look at what you're trying to learn. However, to learn roadcraft (as a whole), you need to be on the road. Track lessons might help with machine control in isolation in lieu of corners, but how do they demonstrate action around traffic, intersections, and other hazard awareness? Nope... it isn't possible, but all tuition has a purpose and a place.

[caspernz]

The Roadcraft approach works on all forms of motorised vehicle. In my industry one of the long serving driver trainers made the comment that the guys who ride bikes, most of 'em make good truck drivers. Based on the anticipation and keeping a bit of space around them for safety.

I've done a variety of courses over the years, the biggest variable ends up being the riders' ego, as in can I deal with someone else being a "better rider" than me? Often this better rider thinks he/she is so on the basis of being more risk tolerant, or flouting the law in order to get ahead...

From where I sit, the IAM approach offers a road rider the best set of skills. Nothing wrong with spending some time on a track to perfect/practice machine control, but doing just track work won't produce a safe rider.

[nzspokes]

Nothing wrong with spending some time on a track to perfect/practice machine control, but doing just track work won't produce a safe rider.

Agree. Track will help you have the skills to get around a turn at open road speeds with control and not bouncing off road side furniture. Quality road training helps with the rest, and Iam provides this. Sadly I dont believe some commercial trainers do.

My understanding is one of the better trainers also trains truck drivers.

[Moise]

What are the ACC courses like?

[Gremlin]

Sadly I dont believe some commercial trainers do.
The bar for instructors has been lifted. When you sit I endorsement it's for every class (even if you just want to instruct motorcycles), hence you have to get 100% on motorcycle, car and heavy vehicle questions.

Now, you also have to demonstrate further training ie, for motorcycles, we've had a few instructors coming through seeking an IAM Advanced Test pass to demonstrate this.

[Maha]

Now that I dont believe.

It was known as the Fletcher Marathon when I did it, a tad over 4 hours due to a knee injury three weeks prior. Damn pot holes/road works.. you don't get those on a track.

[haydes55]

Iam Weasel
I R Baboon

?

[ellipsis]

............

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Kih6rFXZpHc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>





.......

[nzspokes]

The bar for instructors has been lifted. When you sit I endorsement it's for every class (even if you just want to instruct motorcycles), hence you have to get 100% on motorcycle, car and heavy vehicle questions.

Now, you also have to demonstrate further training ie, for motorcycles, we've had a few instructors coming through seeking an IAM Advanced Test pass to demonstrate this.

Now thats good to hear. I could never understand how little some seemed to know. It surprises me that you could just go get your I endorsement then get into it. I would have thought a Advanced test pass would have been a basic requirement.

I wont be bothering with I as all I wanted it for was helping guide some new riders. I dont have the spare 5k or so for doing a bit of voluntary work.

[nodrog]

I R Baboon

?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Yt3EQfsNQ

[BuzzardNZ]

Now thats good to hear. I could never understand how little some seemed to know. It surprises me that you could just go get your I endorsement then get into it. I would have thought a Advanced test pass would have been a basic requirement.

I wont be bothering with I as all I wanted it for was helping guide some new riders. I dont have the spare 5k or so for doing a bit of voluntary work.

mate, you sound like the best trained rider in NZ! But then again you've said in a previous post that your fat arse has landed on someones bonnet.

Maybe i'm old school, but I learnt to ride on my uncles farm, never did any courses, crashed once in 27 years ( oil on the road ) yet have lived to tell the tale.

Each to their own I guess, but you and your courses are sounding like Ed and his religion!

[bogan]

Well to be fair those that want to be better riders will find a way to do so. I have sat on the edge of IAM for sometime and would like to do some proper work on it one day when time allows. I did by chance end up getting a basic evaluation ride with an observer and have taken what he has said on board.

As the saying goes, "Experience is a cruel teacher, you get the test before the lesson" . Track days like the ART days give you an environment to try different lines without trees, power poles and opposing traffic.

If that's you in your avatar, why do you lean the bike under your own CoG so much? It's a bad habit to get into is it not?

[nzspokes]

mate, you sound like the best trained rider in NZ! But then again you've said in a previous post that your fat arse has landed on someones bonnet.

Maybe i'm old school, but I learnt to ride on my uncles farm, never did any courses, crashed once in 27 years ( oil on the road ) yet have lived to tell the tale.

Each to their own I guess, but you and your courses are sounding like Ed and his religion!

Nope, not the best trained by any means. And Im smart enough to know I need more training.

If you crashed on oil then maybe you need to work on your observation skills.

[nzspokes]

If that's you in your avatar, why do you lean the bike under your own CoG so much? It's a bad habit to get into is it not?

It was on the warm down lap. I liked the pic because its a bit of a different perspective from a mates gopoo.

[BuzzardNZ]

It was on the warm down lap. I liked the pic because its a bit of a different perspective from a mates gopoo.

that's unique, but I hear Honda riders do it like that in Auckland

[bogan]

It was on the warm down lap. I liked the pic because its a bit of a different perspective from a mates gopoo.

That'd be what makes it a bad habit, init.

[FJRider]

Nope, not the best trained by any means. And Im smart enough to know I need more training.

More learning needed ... not more training.


If you crashed on oil then maybe you need to work on your observation skills.

People crash by hitting cars ... does their observational skills need work too .. ??? :scratch:

[BuzzardNZ]

Nope, not the best trained by any means. And Im smart enough to know I need more training.

If you crashed on oil then maybe you need to work on your observation skills.


Oil is hard to see at night going round a corner with zero extra road lights.

As for you being smart enough!!!, that's worthy of a new thread :yes:

[bogan]

As for you being smart enough!!!, that's worthy of a new thread :yes:

Get in line cunt, apparently he's the guy with the most mod'd VTR in NZ, and 3rd most mod'd one in Australasia; which sounds most thread-worthy.

[BuzzardNZ]

Get in line cunt, apparently he's the guy with the most mod'd VTR in NZ, and 3rd most mod'd one in Australasia; which sounds most thread-worthy.

But it's not a VTR, nor a FireStorm... wait for it... it's a Hawk ( soon to be powered with a Shorai ) with a special seat that allows for a wide ( fucking fat ) load :eek: . I guess we'd all need extra training to ride something as AWESOME as that!

[Madness]

I know I'm not worthy.

[FJRider]

..As for you being smart enough!!!, that's worthy of a new thread :yes:

Start a Poll to that effect .. I dare ya ... :devil2:

[bogan]

But it's not a VTR, nor a FireStorm... wait for it... it's a Hawk ( soon to be powered with a Shorai ) with a special seat that allows for a wide ( fucking fat ) load :eek: . I guess we'd all need extra training to ride something as AWESOME as that!

Until it proves itself worthy of the Hawk (GT) name, it's a VTR or Firestorm; none of this riding coat-tails stuck-up credit-card modder bullshit.

Iam not amused at transgressions of the mod-god :bleh:

[5ive]

I'll probably have a look at IAM for some further training in the future, more skills/advice/training won't hurt. I'm all for upskilling.

I don't think that it's all black and white when it comes to road vs track though. Having done a few courses and training already elsewhere while I was waitng to sit my motorcycle licences up to full, I'm not convinced that the 'Road Craft' instructors/testers were all that 'clued up' or experienced as much as they should be.

The trainer for my ACC Ride Forever Bronze course was average at best, and turned up on a cruiser to train 4 sports bike riders in the rain (after knowing beforehand the bikes we had, and the weather forecast), and ended up cutting short the open road component because he couldn't keep up in the rain (and was taking the wrong lines).

My CBTA 1 training and test almost ended prematurely, because the trainer/tester almost washed out the front wheel of their bike following me during the testing phase, due to them taking the wrong line around a corner over tar bleed in the rain in a 50km speed zone (I was riding to the speed limit for the test obviously).

My ACC Ride Forever Silver course however, was totally different, the instructor has and does race at the track, and I wouldn't rule out any UK poice rider training as well considering that is where they were from. It was a MASSIVE difference in rider skill displayed, and the riding lessons provided. It was on and off rain during the day, but that didn't make it harder, it just meant we were able to learn more from someone who had experience and skill. We were shown the perfect blend of safe and fast, just right for the open public roads.

I felt safer, and more comfortable with the track experienced trainer/instructor than the 'Road Craft' ones, in my experience, and I went back to him to sit my CBTA2 of course, got to be carefull of who you ride with...

[Maha]

People crash by hitting cars ... does their observational skills need work too .. ??? :scratch:

Running wide during cornering has little to do with observation :eek:


Get in line cunt, apparently he's the guy with the most mod'd VTR in NZ, and 3rd most mod'd one in Australasia; which sounds most thread-worthy.

Hawk! it's a Hawk.

[swbarnett]

People crash by hitting cars ... does their observational skills need work too .. ??? :scratch:
Depends. If seeing the car earlier would've helped then yes. Also, you can often tell what a car is likely to do if you're more observant.

[swbarnett]

You cant tell if they dont indicate though but some on this forum do have anticipation or mind reading skills that help them.
You are the perfect case in point. Your obervational skills are among the worst based on what you've posted.

There have been a number of occasions when I've known well in advance what a car was going to do because I simply kept my eyes open for every detail.

[GrayWolf]

I'll probably have a look at IAM for some further training in the future, more skills/advice/training won't hurt. I'm all for upskilling.

I don't think that it's all black and white when it comes to road vs track though. Having done a few courses and training already elsewhere while I was waitng to sit my motorcycle licences up to full, I'm not convinced that the 'Road Craft' instructors/testers were all that 'clued up' or experienced as much as they should be.

The trainer for my ACC Ride Forever Bronze course was average at best, and turned up on a cruiser to train 4 sports bike riders in the rain (after knowing beforehand the bikes we had, and the weather forecast), and ended up cutting short the open road component because he couldn't keep up in the rain (and was taking the wrong lines).

My CBTA 1 training and test almost ended prematurely, because the trainer/tester almost washed out the front wheel of their bike following me during the testing phase, due to them taking the wrong line around a corner over tar bleed in the rain in a 50km speed zone (I was riding to the speed limit for the test obviously).

My ACC Ride Forever Silver course however, was totally different, the instructor has and does race at the track, and I wouldn't rule out any UK poice rider training as well considering that is where they were from. It was a MASSIVE difference in rider skill displayed, and the riding lessons provided. It was on and off rain during the day, but that didn't make it harder, it just meant we were able to learn more from someone who had experience and skill. We were shown the perfect blend of safe and fast, just right for the open public roads.

I felt safer, and more comfortable with the track experienced trainer/instructor than the 'Road Craft' ones, in my experience, and I went back to him to sit my CBTA2 of course, got to be carefull of who you ride with...


I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...
there are some IAM involved KB'rs who might chip in with luck, and are you really surprised a cruiser could not 'keep up' with sprotbikes on bends?? The guy might only own cruisers, we dont all subscribe to the head down, arse up style of riding. {my belly would get in the way for a start} :laugh::innocent:
The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......
Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.

[nzspokes]

I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...
there are some IAM involved KB'rs who might chip in with luck, and are you really surprised a cruiser could not 'keep up' with sprotbikes on bends?? The guy might only own cruisers, we dont all subscribe to the head down, arse up style of riding. {my belly would get in the way for a start} :laugh::innocent:
The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......
Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.

The Life saver is the one big thing I got called up about on my little observed ride. Something I got lazy on.

[bogan]

As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???

Fuck it'd be good if such a thing were trainable, instead of gifted only though :whistle:

[FJRider]

You cant tell if they dont indicate though but some on this forum do have anticipation or mind reading skills that help them.

Some just assume they will do the worst thing possible ... and expect no less.

Too often they will ... and you will be ready.

[bogan]

If it was trainable it would be a requirement for getting a license.

:blink: So why are police trained to a higher standard than our license requirements?

[swbarnett]

a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'.......
Because here it's known as a head check.

[Ender EnZed]

Because here it's known as a head check.

And some people on here will still tell you it's not necessary.

[swbarnett]

As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills
The thing is I'm not gifted with them either. The first thing I did was to get some formal training before I got my license. Since then it's taken a lot of road time, open mindedness and self criticism to develop my powers of observation.



because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???
There would certainly be fewer crashes if some riders would pull their head out of the sand and realise that observational skills can be developed. No matter your natural aptitude.

[Berries]

As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???
Here you go again. You have to concentrate all the time when you ride, not just when you feel like it. That way you would see all of the clues to tell you something is about to happen that you will not see if you ride with your eyes open and your brain turned off. Like cars that u-turn. It can't be done if there is no driver, or wheels pointing straight ahead. But you have to look to see that.

People who cannot demonstrate this and continue to crash should have their licence taken off them.

[Blackbird]

I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...

And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......

Not sure if that was ever the case but in the last 5 years that I've been involved, both serving and retired police have been heavily involved with IAM. This years' annual conference was held at National Police College at Porirua. Their top instructors worked with attending members on all manner of skills, including on-road and training ground skills. Outstanding!

Have to agree with you regarding lifesavers/head checks. When we carry out initial assessments for prospective members, lack of head checks at critical points are the most common area for improvement. This is part of an overall lack of situational awareness.

[FJRider]

Do you now ride a push bike which gives you more time to be ready due to your slower speed or to you drive a Hummer so you can be ready?

Time is only an issue if you do not LOOK for possible issues.

A slow speed will not always assure you of an accident free ride.

Neither push bikes or Hummers are no guarantee of survival or being free of injury.

[FJRider]

Running wide during cornering has little to do with observation

Not taking notice of the brake lights of the car ahead ... or cars parked on the left of the road with their (right) indicator on ... cars approaching with their right indicator on ... cars waiting to pull out into your intended path ... has a great deal to do with observation ...

[Gremlin]

The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
NZ Police don't do high speed training (I think it's something about not being able to legally practise at high speed?) while the UK are certified to levels of chase speed. The biggest factor for the officers, is that the higher the speed they are graded for, the greater the burden of responsibility on them, as they should be better, ie, even if a car pulls out in front of them, they should have anticipated. The police here do practise for situations where they are reversed into... (well, positioning, not the actual crunch :confused:)


Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.
Just bear in mind that it's a hell of a read for the uninitiated. Don't try to digest in one hit, read a chapter, practise a little, read a bit, etc.

Those joining IAM NZ are given an A5 Riding Standards booklet, which is a condensed version of the book and modified for NZ laws.

[bogan]

Are they necessarily? There was a story in the news some months back expressing concern about the number of police cars getting written off. Lets not forget the highly publicised crash where a police car did a U turn in front of 2 motorbikes.

Yes; necessarily so, in fact.

[T.W.R]

Not taking notice of the brake lights of the car ahead ... or cars parked on the left of the road with their (right) indicator on ... cars approaching with their right indicator on ... cars waiting to pull out into your intended path ... has a great deal to do with observation ...

:facepalm: god I hope that isn't all you're looking for in those scenarios, there's plenty out there that don't know what the funny stalks on their steering columns are for; and plenty of vehicles that haven't got lights & indicators that work period :no:
Preemptive anticipation calculates a hell of a lot more than basic signs for dummies.

[T.W.R]

The problem with taking notice of a car on the side of the road with their indicator on is you run the risk of being rear ended by stopping in the middle of the road to let them in. So observing one thing in the hope of not getting hit could leave you exposed to being hit by something else.

:eek: you are fucking unbelievable!

[bogan]

Often certain situations can appear unbelieveable to others unless they have to face them themselves

This goes both ways, you can't believe it is possible to ride safely because you lack the capability; if you realised that, took the time to learn safe riding practices, you would beleive in avoidable accidents would you not? :laugh:

[T.W.R]

Often certain situations can appear unbelieveable to others unless they have to face them themselves

:laugh: we've all seen plenty of your distorted perception of reality.....the lenses in your rose coloured glasses must be a pretty fucked up shade :facepalm:

[Berries]

The problem with taking notice of a car on the side of the road with their indicator on is you run the risk of being rear ended by stopping in the middle of the road to let them in.
Who in their right mind would stop to let them in? You need to be ready to stop (or slow, or move) in case they don't see you. And if they do pull out then what's behind you is irrelevant because you need to avoid the primary hazard in front of you. You're very hard work.

[bogan]

Perhaps it is time for a mod to move a few posts?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/166015-Awesome-riding-tips-from-Cassina

[Gremlin]

But isnt stopping to let them in the only way of guranteeing they wont hit you when they pull out? There is no black and white solution even if you think there is. In such a situation I try and ride the centre line of the road if possible so I have more time to hopefully get out of the way. I was hit once not riding the centre line during an overtake so maybe riding the centre line may be safer.
:facepalm: Yeesh... I'm not going to respond to much, but let's try one.

First, there is no definite position A on the road for situation 1. Your position on the road is dictated by the information available, and so therefore, your position is fluid. You take advantage of your motorcycle's manoeuvrability vs a car, to put yourself in the best possible position (note, this position changes - see ref to information above).

So, take the hypothetical situation of a vehicle pulling out. You have right of way, so are entitled to continue past. You have the choice to waive this right and slow to let the car in. Before you do any such action, you take stock of the situation. All vehicles in the vicinity (oncoming, your way, in front of you, behind you and so forth) and other hazards that may be applicable. If you have someone following close behind you, it is unlikely that the best course of action is to stop (and then get rammed from behind). Any slowing down should be accompanied by a mirror check to make sure it is safe to do so. You'd be better to slow up, and create a gap for them to pull into, than stop dead on the road (good forward observation can allow you to start creating the gap early and allow it to build as you approach the vehicle). If however, you completely stopped, you would maintain rear observation to observe any approaching vehicles and make sure they've realised you've stopped. In my experience, I've had so little success at allowing a vehicle into a space I've created, I don't do this as often as I could.

So as you approach the car you're asking yourself, what can you see, what can't you see, and what can you reasonably expect to happen. What options have you got? Is it a multi-lane road, and if so, is the lane next to you clear in case you need it? You're planning all this prior to reaching the car rather than trying to figure this all out as the worst happens. Next, are you following other vehicles (in which case it's less likely the vehicle will pull out). Have you been riding in such a position as to observe their mirrors, and thus them, to give yourself maximum opportunity to be seen? Are you hidden behind the vehicles and with nothing behind you, they may suddenly pull out (had this, and had to swerve around the front of the vehicle as it suddenly pulled out).

You're also assessing the vehicle. What angle are the wheels, are the reverse lights on? Have they just applied the brake, or released it?

You'll be completing all of the above in no more than 1-2 seconds and still be assessing all other hazards on the road.

Ultimately, during your riding/driving you are an active road user. Managing your safety bubble (the immediate area around you in including vehicles) and assessing hazards/risks and taking appropriate action. Simple things like not braking suddenly which risks the vehicle behind you having to brake suddenly. Good forward observation and planning allows you to ease up early and slow the vehicles behind you gently... a much safer approach.

[GrayWolf]

Not sure if that was ever the case but in the last 5 years that I've been involved, both serving and retired police have been heavily involved with IAM. This years' annual conference was held at National Police College at Porirua. Their top instructors worked with attending members on all manner of skills, including on-road and training ground skills. Outstanding!

Have to agree with you regarding lifesavers/head checks. When we carry out initial assessments for prospective members, lack of head checks at critical points are the most common area for improvement. This is part of an overall lack of situational awareness.

Understood, they are involved with the IAM, and that is good to read. I was going off the various discussions where 'rastus' used to gnash his teeth over this. I guess coming from the UK, I was used to seeing Police riders involved at 'grass roots' level. I did my initial riding training under the RCA/ACU scheme in the late 70's, and even then there was a Police rider involved with the 'full licence' holder 'higher' training.
The Popo were involved in the 'star rider' courses, I think the new ACC scheme is similar to what that was, {bronze, silver, gold}. Sadly it seems the Police here see little benefit to having a 'decently sized' M/cycle division..

[nzspokes]

The problem with taking notice of a car on the side of the road with their indicator on is you run the risk of being rear ended by stopping in the middle of the road to let them in. So observing one thing in the hope of not getting hit could leave you exposed to being hit by something else.

How have you made it to being an adult? :facepalm:

[nzspokes]

You are yet to find yourself in the situation where things can happen just too fast to do anything. For example there was an accident reported when a guy was coming around a bent on his bike and was hit by a turning truck or you come around a bend and there is a car on your side of the road. When the situation is the fault of likely someone else shit can still happen irrespective of how many hazards you think you have noticed and been able to take corrective action eg swerve around.

Re-read post #79.

[Maha]

You are yet to find yourself in the situation where things can happen just too fast to do anything. For example there was an accident reported when a guy was coming around a bent on his bike and was hit by a turning truck or you come around a bend and there is a car on your side of the road. When the situatio
is the fault of likely someone else shit can still happen irrespective of how many hazards you think you have noticed and been able to take corrective action eg swerve around.

Sometimes it's luck that plays a part in a sudden situation, how you manage that luck dictates the outcome. You'll have the click of a finger to decide and manage if you live or die.

[Blackbird]

The Popo were involved in the 'star rider' courses, I think the new ACC scheme is similar to what that was, {bronze, silver, gold}. Sadly it seems the Police here see little benefit to having a 'decently sized' M/cycle division..

The police are really supportive and I think you'll see direct involvement grow even more. We regularly have serving police joining in with month-end runs. As an amusing aside, I sat my Advanced Test in 2011 and the Examiner was a serving police officer who was ex class-1 bikes and cars from the UK. He was really enjoying his "social" day and my test lasted for 4 hours and covered 220 km of city, urban, motorway and country riding - that's still an IAM record :wacko: . I was buggered!

[Berries]

You are yet to find yourself in the situation where things can happen just too fast to do anything. For example there was an accident reported when a guy was coming around a bent on his bike and was hit by a turning truck or you come around a bend and there is a car on your side of the road. When the situation is the fault of likely someone else shit can still happen irrespective of how many hazards you think you have noticed and been able to take corrective action eg swerve around.
I like how you implied that the truck driver was at fault there but your failure to consider that the rider may have contributed in many cases is pretty much par for the course.

[Jin]

The problem with taking notice of a car on the side of the road with their indicator on is you run the risk of being rear ended by stopping in the middle of the road to let them in. So observing one thing in the hope of not getting hit could leave you exposed to being hit by something else.
In those situations the trick is to speed up and mount the pavement. No risk of collision on the road.

[GrayWolf]

The police are really supportive and I think you'll see direct involvement grow even more. We regularly have serving police joining in with month-end runs. As an amusing aside, I sat my Advanced Test in 2011 and the Examiner was a serving police officer who was ex class-1 bikes and cars from the UK. He was really enjoying his "social" day and my test lasted for 4 hours and covered 220 km of city, urban, motorway and country riding - that's still an IAM record :wacko: . I was buggered!

4hrs?? :eek5::eek5::pinch: sounds like he was enjoying himself, but poor you, a running commentary for 4hrs? :wacko: But I am guessing you learnt heaps on that ride, if he took the lead at times.

[Gremlin]

Understood, they are involved with the IAM, and that is good to read. I was going off the various discussions where 'rastus' used to gnash his teeth over this. I guess coming from the UK, I was used to seeing Police riders involved at 'grass roots' level. I did my initial riding training under the RCA/ACU scheme in the late 70's, and even then there was a Police rider involved with the 'full licence' holder 'higher' training.
The Popo were involved in the 'star rider' courses, I think the new ACC scheme is similar to what that was, {bronze, silver, gold}. Sadly it seems the Police here see little benefit to having a 'decently sized' M/cycle division..
The NZ Police don't see themselves as trainers. It is not their role, not in their job description, budget etc. Further, they have motorcycles in only 3 centres, and Christchurch has 4 officers and 1-2 motorcycles, so they're not even assigned, and hot swap instead. They simply don't have the capacity to run something like Bike Safe in the UK. I would suggest we're even somewhat lucky to have motorcycles. Accounting sees motorcycles as expensive. The officers have more training than for cars ($$$), need special expensive equipment (clothes, helmets, boots and so forth = $$$), special communication considerations (waterproof, off bike and on = $$$) not to mention the motorcycles themselves ($$$). All for a unit that carries a single person (a car carries 4, up to 5). A car is easily more cost effective.

The officers that carried out testing of motorcycles for supply favoured the BMW for their requirements, handling etc. I think the ST1300 came third... it won because it's cheaper (or, the BMW is just too expensive to swallow) both upfront and running costs. Money doesn't grow on trees... One of the main reasons they would have the bikes is motorcading (overseas dignitaries visiting). As aside, the ambo bikes are getting back on the roads in increasing numbers which is cool to see.

I'm not sure if it's just the officers I chat with, but there does seem to be a decent quotient of ex-UK motorcycle cops, and obviously they have a different outlook and used to UK. We've got increasing numbers of police joining IAM. Do they join for like minded riders or keep their skills up? Bit of both? Everyone has their reasons.

[Gremlin]

You are yet to find yourself in the situation where things can happen just too fast to do anything. For example there was an accident reported when a guy was coming around a bent on his bike and was hit by a turning truck or you come around a bend and there is a car on your side of the road. When the situation is the fault of likely someone else shit can still happen irrespective of how many hazards you think you have noticed and been able to take corrective action eg swerve around.
On the contrary, I have found myself in many situations. I've been riding 10 years (which is nothing compared to some) and covered 300k+ km of road, track, adventure etc. Haven't ridden dirt bikes or trikes, but pretty much everything else. I'm no angel nor perfect and prior to IAM I did all sorts of things like explore the outer limits of 1 litre sportbikes. Now I use those experiences to pass on knowledge.

In year 1-2 I failed to see a car pulling out across my lanes until too late. I braked hard, but failed to stop short. The car however did stop... I was right across it's bumper and couldn't put my left foot down. I don't think you can get closer?

Mid last year I headed to New Plymouth in my ute, with the GSA on the back for suspension work on SH3 (south of Mt Messenger). A ute is turning around on a hard section in front of a driveway on the left hand side. Being in the ute, I make the mistake of thinking I'm more visible. I'm doing 90kph when he then pulls out onto the road, turning right, across my lane. There is no way, with the weight of the bike on the back I can stop in the available distance (probably 30-40m available). I choose to brake hard initially, to increase my time, then aim for the left hand side hard shoulder and drove around the back of him then back onto the road...

Earlier this year I was going around East Cape on the GSA. I was in a rural area, 100kph zone and rounded a right hand corner with limited visibility (no suggested speed and taken at 90-100kph). There was a driveway on the left hand side of the road after the corner and a ute pulled out of it (across the road, to his right). He started pulling out right before I came into view (so unless he'd listened for a vehicle, he couldn't have seen me at his decision point). His front wheels were on the road and then he paused (obviously seeing me). At this point I was obviously heavily braking. He then continued pulling out, I aimed for the left side of the road and once he'd cleared the edge of the road I eased off the brakes, went around his rear and continued. Moral of the story? Stop in the distance you can see to be clear. If I'd been travelling quicker I may not have been able to stop in time (or control the motorcycle in the attempt). I wish I had a video of it, as it's a perfect learning opportunity.

Couple of weeks ago I'm close to home and approaching a downhill intersection (side road has a stop sign) at night and it's raining (CB919). There is a car crawling up the hill on the side road and initially I discount any danger due to the speed of the car. However, through training I recognise I'm going to be passing at the intersection at the same approx time as the car will, and don't like it. I ease off the gas to alter the timing and the car (without slowing) goes straight through the intersection. I flash my headlight at it (now it looks surprised) and brake (gently but progressively because it's wet) and then go around the back of them.

Ultimately, it's about recognising all hazards and without training, I doubt you'd recognise ALL (but you might think you have). These incidents stand out in my memory because they are close calls, and since IAM, they have become few and far between - namely situations where there was severe risk not the run-of-the-mill daily stuff which is easily handled (cars pulling through gaps in traffic, cars pulling out in urban situations etc). Yes, there are crazy random events but they are not as common as people think.

I was catching up with an Observer this evening. He was recently heading out on a casual ride with an Observer friend. On the motorway he witnesses a motorist absorbed in his mobile in the centre lane. He completes his pass, moves in front of the vehicle (still observes the driver using the mobile through mirrors) and a short time later sees a sea of brake lights in front. Well aware of his recent observation he moves into the fast lane instead and sees the motorist rear end the vehicle that had been in front of him... The point? All information has a use...

When we give a running commentary to someone for the first time (they always follow when we are talking as it's safer) they often struggle to keep up the previously attainable pace. This is because their mind is being flooded with information they weren't previously processing. With practise, you can improve your ability (just like physically riding a motorcycle for example). Riding has an enormous mental component which is often overlooked.

[Katman]

There have been posters on here who have said to me I should look up driveways as I ride along to avoid being hit by a dog again but if I did that I would face a far greater risk of hitting something in front of me. So for me its all about focussing on the greatest dangers rather than the less frequent eg dog running out.

Are your eyes glued into your head?

Have you not heard of 'scanning'?

[swbarnett]

Are your eyes glued into your head?

Have you not heard of 'scanning'?
I think the "almighty relaxed one" is a lost cause in this medium. My only hope is that they stumble on to someone in the flesh and blood world that can show them.

Cassina, how about you go through the IAM training? Then come back and tell us if your perspective has changed.

[Gremlin]

Reading your post implies you are paranoid about being hit thinking up so many potentail accident senarios as you ride along which for many would take away their enjoyment of motorcyling. There have been posters on here who have said to me I should look up driveways as I ride along to avoid being hit by a dog again but if I did that I would face a far greater risk of hitting something in front of me. So for me its all about focussing on the greatest dangers rather than the less frequent eg dog running out. If you have ever been in a plane I bet the experience has really freaked you out because if anything goes wrong in the air you are much more likely to die than on the road.
:wacko: Yeah well, that would be the anticipation/planning component of roadcraft... Actually, I enjoy completing a ride in a safe, smooth, well executed style with no close calls. Until 2013, I didn't hold more than a Class 1 learners (6F obviously), and rode everywhere. Once again, your guess is wrong. I don't fly frequently (cattle is too cramped) but occasionally for business I need to hop to the South Island etc. Last overseas flight was 2011. Means to an end.


No I would end up crashing because I would be too busy concerntrating on the IAM check list I had learnt and not enough on the road. Good luck if it works for you though.
Chapter 1 of roadcraft is mental attitude/approach. You're clearly not going to get past that chapter. I typically find those that have a closed mind to increasing their skills (regardless of which level their skills are at) or have an big ego about their riding need the most improvement. Obviously if you want to continue along as you are, there is no legal requirement to do otherwise, I'm certainly not going to force you to. I do have an issue with your closed mind postings, as any learner could see that and deem it acceptable, hence I respond.

There is a waiting list of riders that do want to improve, so I would simply be a fool to waste my time trying to convince the unwilling. Instead, I spend my time on those that do want to improve...

[Blackbird]

4hrs?? :eek5::eek5::pinch: sounds like he was enjoying himself, but poor you, a running commentary for 4hrs? :wacko: But I am guessing you learnt heaps on that ride, if he took the lead at times.

He was enjoying himself! He didn't take the lead as it was my Advanced Test, not a mentored ride. Didn't have to run a continuous commentary, we only require about 10 minutes or so in each of the riding environments encountered during the test to demonstrate situational awareness and consequential actions. I joined IAM in 2010 in the hope of safely extending my riding career as I aged. It was an incredible experience, best thing I've ever done on 2 wheels so decided to pay it forward by training to be an Observer. That was another huge learning experience and it took about 10 months to complete the training and pass the practical and theory tests. Have since gone on to pass my Senior Observer Test and still learning heaps. Don't think that at 68, I'll try for Examiner though :wacko:

The beauty for anyone who joins is that learning never stops and it's regularly reinforced so that personal standards don't slip. Not everyone's cup of tea though, just one option.

[Jin]

Plenty of accidents occur because people spend time scanning the side of the road eg looking at scenery and if you think you are less likely to crash by doing this good luck to you. I wonder how many head on collisions occur because people were scsanning the side of the road? It would be your fault if you hit something in front as a result of scanning.
this has to be a troll right? i know you're from south island but c'mon you cant be serious :weird:

[GrayWolf]

He was enjoying himself! He didn't take the lead as it was my Advanced Test, not a mentored ride. Didn't have to run a continuous commentary, we only require about 10 minutes or so in each of the riding environments encountered during the test to demonstrate situational awareness and consequential actions. I joined IAM in 2010 in the hope of safely extending my riding career as I aged. It was an incredible experience, best thing I've ever done on 2 wheels so decided to pay it forward by training to be an Observer. That was another huge learning experience and it took about 10 months to complete the training and pass the practical and theory tests. Have since gone on to pass my Senior Observer Test and still learning heaps. Don't think that at 68, I'll try for Examiner though :wacko:

The beauty for anyone who joins is that learning never stops and it's regularly reinforced so that personal standards don't slip. Not everyone's cup of tea though, just one option.

Yeh, I've been in NZ 25 yrs, so, errrr, I keep thinking about getting back under scrutiny, but work bloody shifts, which doesnt help, and Tim's {Instructor/Popo rider} somewhat blunt manner sticks in my mind, I can only guess how many bad habits i have let slip, and just what his kind delivery would be saying..... "wot the fookin 'ell do you think that was?" would be the start of it :confused::no::wait:

[Blackbird]

Yeh, I've been in NZ 25 yrs, so, errrr, I keep thinking about getting back under scrutiny, but work bloody shifts, which doesnt help, and Tim's {Instructor/Popo rider} somewhat blunt manner sticks in my mind, I can only guess how many bad habits i have let slip, and just what his kind delivery would be saying..... "wot the fookin 'ell do you think that was?" would be the start of it :confused::no::wait:

Hahaha! There's a strong ethos of no egos or grandstanding over here, so no blunt manner allowed! Shift work isn't a show stopper. One of my Associates works shift and about to take another on who is in the same boat. I'm a retired layabout so it's not a big deal.

[buggerit]

No I would end up crashing because I would be too busy concerntrating on the IAM check list I had learnt and not enough on the road. Good luck if it works for you though.

you already crash , so whats the harm?

[Berries]

Reading your post implies you are paranoid about being hit thinking up so many potentail accident senarios as you ride along which for many would take away their enjoyment of motorcyling.
Cleary part of your enjoyment is crashing if that is really your view.


There have been posters on here who have said to me I should look up driveways as I ride along to avoid being hit by a dog again but if I did that I would face a far greater risk of hitting something in front of me.
Yes, you probably would.


Plenty of accidents occur because people spend time scanning the side of the road eg looking at scenery and if you think you are less likely to crash by doing this good luck to you. I wonder how many head on collisions occur because people were scsanning the side of the road? It would be your fault if you hit something in front as a result of scanning.
Truly unbelievable.

[Moise]

Good luck out there Cassina, you might need it.

[Katman]

Plenty of accidents occur because people spend time scanning the side of the road eg looking at scenery and if you think you are less likely to crash by doing this good luck to you. I wonder how many head on collisions occur because people were scsanning the side of the road? It would be your fault if you hit something in front as a result of scanning.

You seem to have a strange understanding of the word 'scanning'.

[Madness]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/03/Dynatest_2/7e22138c2.jpg

[James Deuce]

Drop it, one can't communicate with cassina. She's right, we're all wrong, every choice is binary and definitive, judgement has been passed.

She's a legal expert, a biochemist, a physician, a neurologist, a riding instructor and a murderously effective dog whisperer.

We should cower before her, basking in the glory that is a black and white world view.

[caspernz]

There is a waiting list of riders that do want to improve, so I would simply be a fool to waste my time trying to convince the unwilling. Instead, I spend my time on those that do want to improve...

That's the positive aspect though, the fact quite a few riders wanna improve themselves. Myself included :eek:



The beauty for anyone who joins is that learning never stops and it's regularly reinforced so that personal standards don't slip. Not everyone's cup of tea though, just one option.

Jeez, that's what we go thru at work in a near non-stop fashion. Assess, focus on improvements, re-assess next time... Refresher training...


Tim's {Instructor/Popo rider} somewhat blunt manner sticks in my mind, I can only guess how many bad habits i have let slip, and just what his kind delivery would be saying..... "wot the fookin 'ell do you think that was?" would be the start of it :confused::no::wait:

Sounds a bit like that grumpy old training sergeant I had back in Holland when I went thru truck licences...nothing subtle back then :shit:


Hahaha! There's a strong ethos of no egos or grandstanding over here, so no blunt manner allowed! Shift work isn't a show stopper. One of my Associates works shift and about to take another on who is in the same boat. I'm a retired layabout so it's not a big deal.

Damn, I'm sure my ears have a burning sensation right about now...


You seem to have a strange understanding of the word 'scanning'.

In the Smiths driving system, the scanning parlance is substituted with something more like "make sure you get the big picture" which is a failing for many motorists, regardless of their chosen vehicle.

[Maha]

Can you scan without rotating your head because if not you are not scanning are you and I assume by scanning you mean 180 degrees?

Scanning is AHEAD, where it is very easy to do... using only your eyes.

[bogan]

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/03/Dynatest_2/7e22138c2.jpg

That looks like a very expensive way to find out our roads are fucking shit.

Reminded me of this...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/wYshHRVBPEE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[bogan]

which would require a degree of head rotation.

Just one? :scratch:

[Maha]

Some on here claim to be skilled at looking up driveways for dogs running out which would require a degree of head rotation.

Probably bullshit and that is not scanning. You scan what is in front of you, not to your left or right, that's just.... looking. Very little skilled required.

[nzspokes]

Chapter 1 of roadcraft is mental attitude/approach. You're clearly not going to get past that chapter. I typically find those that have a closed mind to increasing their skills (regardless of which level their skills are at) or have an big ego about their riding need the most improvement. Obviously if you want to continue along as you are, there is no legal requirement to do otherwise, I'm certainly not going to force you to. I do have an issue with your closed mind postings, as any learner could see that and deem it acceptable, hence I respond.

There is a waiting list of riders that do want to improve, so I would simply be a fool to waste my time trying to convince the unwilling. Instead, I spend my time on those that do want to improve...

Key point is those that want to learn generally will. The concept that having to take some time to learn something seems to be lost on some. An hour long course is not going to do it. I enjoy learning so grab what I can.

I would like to do some work with IAM but time does not allow for me to give it the effort it deserves. Ive done 3 hours training with the head honcho and it changed how I ride. Also had 1 basic observed ride for an hour or so. So I have just touched on the outer edges of IAM.

Some of it I know from reading and they use some of the track skills (or track use some of the roadcraft skills).

Now one point I will raise that maybe some are wondering. Dont think these guys are slow. One of the concepts I believe is the right gear for the corner. Another is using vanishing points. And another is about using lines for good vision. What you get with a rider that can do all that? Someone that is properly quick and smooth.

[nzspokes]

Maybe if IAMs had been around when I iearnt to ride I may have been interested but unlike you i have been riding since 1976 with NO mid life crisis gap. if you do some research its the mid life crisis guys who are most likely to come to grief. You have to respect that everyone learns differently and it is said you cant beat experience which I have more of than you.

If you knew shit about training then you would know that years doing a task does not mean you have been doing it correctly. I work in H&S and the hardest to train are the ones that have been doing a job incorrectly and have got lazy doing it.

Lets not forget how many times you have crashed.

[Katman]

Can you scan without rotating your head because if not you are not scanning are you and I assume by scanning you mean 180 degrees?

Do your eyes move at all while you're riding?

Or are they locked on one point somewhere ahead of you?

[caspernz]

a degree of head rotation.


Just one? :scratch:

Ouch, don't feed us slow pitches man! :crazy:


Key point is those that want to learn generally will. The concept that having to take some time to learn something seems to be lost on some.

Ah yep, it first and foremost requires an open mind :killingme:brick:


If you knew shit about training then you would know that years doing a task does not mean you have been doing it correctly. I work in H&S and the hardest to train are the ones that have been doing a job incorrectly and have got lazy doing it.

Lets not forget how many times you have crashed.

Yes, the multitude of times one has bent/broken a rule/policy without adverse consequence suggests it must all be kosher...until all the holes in the swiss cheese line up...comes up regularly in incident/accident investigations in my line of work.

The irony is that sometimes a new dog on the block learns the tricks faster and better than an old hand...

[bogan]

You forget the bad crashes I have had ... so I must be doing it right despite what you think.

Still with the slow pitches eh...

[nzspokes]

You should know that if you ride wrong you dont live long so I must be doing it right despite what you think. You forget the bad crashes I have had have been the fault of others and not due to incorrect riding ability.

How many concussions have you had in all these crashes?

[Gremlin]

You have to respect that everyone learns differently and it is said you cant beat experience which I have more of than you.
Are you sure? Years of doing the same thing over and over are not added together and don't automatically equal experience. If you've been doing the same thing for 40 years, you have 40 years of the same 1 year of experience (and if you've been doing it badly, then I've got some news for you). Most of the riders I've observed have been riding longer than myself. Some have been riding since youngsters and are now retired, while I'm 32 (and second youngest observer to boot). When the feedback starts flowing, all preconceived notions stop. Skills are improved and everyone is better off. We never stop learning.

[bogan]

You missed out my quote saying they were all the fault of others.

Well, I figured I'd just quote the relevant bits.

To spell it out for you, advanced rider training doesn't just prevent you causing an accident, it allows you to avoid other people's (and canine's) as well.

The sad bit is, that's about as simple as it can be said but I'm pretty sure you still won't get the point :facepalm:

[Madness]

canine's

They do dogs and cats now?

[Gremlin]

Now one point I will raise that maybe some are wondering. Dont think these guys are slow. One of the concepts I believe is the right gear for the corner. Another is using vanishing points. And another is about using lines for good vision. What you get with a rider that can do all that? Someone that is properly quick and smooth.
I - Information
P - Position
S - Speed
G - Gear
A - Acceleration

Information occurs throughout, new information means re-visiting your position (obviously these steps are fluid rather than rigid). Information dictates your position on the road (hazards, road surface, and in order of priority - Safety, Stability, View), your position dictates your speed (distance to vanishing point for example). Your speed dictates the gear you should be in - if, through information and position you've determined you need to slow down or speed up - then you may need to be in a different gear so you can maintain throttle sense (which is being able to control the speed of the motorcycle through the throttle without the need for brakes). Finally, the acceleration phase. You've negotiated the hazard or corner and now you're free to accelerate away.

[Berries]

You forget the bad crashes I have had have been the fault of others and not due to incorrect riding ability.
Does that include the ones where there were no other vehicles involved?

[swbarnett]

Can you scan without rotating your head because if not you are not scanning are you and I assume by scanning you mean 180 degrees?
If you have to turn 180 degrees to look up a driveway then it's already too late. What is required is to scan the triangle that you can see as you approach. Don't stare at it, just a quick glance that will highlight anything that is out of the ordinary.

This very technique saved me from an off a few weeks back when a dog ran out through a line of road-side trees. Because I was scanning I had time to move right and accelerate away. It also helped that I was not hugging the left of the road having identified the trees as a potential hazard.

[swbarnett]

Probably bullshit and that is not scanning.
Not bullshit. Just misinterpreted. The "look down the driveway" bit is probably accurate so I can see that it's not too big a leap for cassina to add the 180 degrees even though it's wrong.

[James Deuce]

Not bullshit. Just misinterpreted. The "look down the driveway" bit is probably accurate so I can see that it's not too big a leap for cassina to add the 180 degrees even though it's wrong.
Rubbish. She ALWAYS assumes that every other person on the planet is not only doing "it" wrong, they are so shit at "it" that doing anything she thinks is bullshit is automatically adding huge negative bias to your percentage chance of dying of motorcycling.

Don't feed the troll.

[GrayWolf]

Maybe if IAMs had been around when I iearnt to ride I may have been interested but unlike you i have been riding since 1976 with NO mid life crisis gap. if you do some research its the mid life crisis guys who are most likely to come to grief. You have to respect that everyone learns differently and it is said you cant beat experience which I have more of than you.

Well I out time you by 2yrs, 1974. Never stopped riding, always been my main transport, that includes living in London {traffic} and riding in UK winters for 9yrs before I took my driving test. Did semi regular thrashes across europe to Spain for 'long weekends'.
My 'learning' was buy the bike, slap Looney plates on it, and ride it out the bike shop door. I decided I needed to improve, and I could argue, as I went almost 25yrs without a spill, I obviously was 'doing it right'. WRONG, had so many bad vices, which I never realised....

oh and scanning ahead or down 'sideroads/driveways' is simply keeping a 'half eye' on as much of it as you can see, in case a car appears at the end, and may fail to stop and give way....
as you get 'level' and pass, the 'threat' lessens by degrees.

[nzspokes]

I saw the website for IAM and I note they say that what you will learn will make you handle "any" hazard safely which I think is false advertising. The people who run it have obviously never been in a situation where things have happened too fast to swerve or brake.

Well to be fair they cant fix stupid. How many times have you crashed again?:facepalm:

Guess you can always ask for your money back.....

[bogan]

I saw the website for IAM and I note they say that what you will learn will make you handle "any" hazard safely which I think is false advertising. The people who run it have obviously never been in a situation where things have happened too fast to swerve or brake.
Again, what you think is not relevant as you do not have the requisite experience (riding defensively).

Which is the whole point is it not?

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

[Ulsterkiwi]

Very interesting read this thread. Cassina mate, I feel sorry for you, it takes a very special kind of special to be you. A true advanced rider will always begin and end with the assertion that there is always more learning which can be done. You have closed the stable door on learning and that pony is loooooooonnnnng gone.

[caseye]

STOP Feeding the troll!
Anyone here know all about riding a motorcycle?
Anyone here ever come close and thought, Shit, I'll watch out for that next time?
whatever you are or are not cassina, it is apparent that if you ever introduced yourself to almost any other motorcyclists in NZ they'd run screaming in case you jinxed them the way you do yourself.
Open your eyes, stop talking to yourself and actually see what is out there in front of you, your spate of terrible, other people's/animals fault, accidents will stop overnight.

[nzspokes]

If it was so shit hot sport you would have to pass IAMs before getting a licence would you not ?

Have a look at the CBTA champ. You will discover it looks familiar. :msn-wink:

[bogan]

So you think I have never braked hard or swerved to avoid an accident? What I am trying to get through to you lot is it does not work all the time especially if another motorist/animal is the cause of the hazardous situation.
It's a scale init, shitters have more of both, in general defensive riders avoid situations where you would need to swerve etc, and only need to swerve or brake hard to avoid an accident you could not.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

[GrayWolf]

If it was so shit hot sport you would have to pass IAMs before getting a licence would you not ?

Institute of ADVANCED Motorists....... of course you wouldnt be expected to pass it as a learner....
look at it this way..... Passing your test? Bursary exam, The new ACC courses? silver a Degree, Gold Masters, AIM the Doctorate...... geddit??

[James Deuce]

Why do you guys even keep on trying? She contributes nothing but irritation.

[Maha]

Why do you guys even keep on trying? She contributes nothing but irritation.

Obsession Jim :baby:

[FJRider]

The people who run it have obviously never been in a situation where things have happened too fast to swerve or brake.

To the contrary .. The people that run it have been in such situations ... perhaps you should do the course.

[FJRider]

SWhat I am trying to get through to you lot is it does not work all the time especially if another motorist/animal is the cause of the hazardous situation.

Perhaps the real cause (and some blame) in such situations is you. Has it never occurred to you as you ride ... that such an event might happen ... and you may not be prepared for it .. ???

Other motorists (and dogs) do not appear out of thin air. Look for them and assume they will do what you really do not want them to do. And you can then plan to avoid them sooner.

[Blackbird]

Why do you guys even keep on trying? She contributes nothing but irritation.

I did warn the originator of this thread what was likely to happen :weird:

[bogan]

Why do you guys even keep on trying? She contributes nothing but irritation.

Why do you guys even keep on reading it? Or asking us to stop/or why we are replying? :whistle:

[James Deuce]

Why do you guys even keep on reading it? Or asking us to stop/or why we are replying? :whistle:
Because I genuinely want to know. Discussing anything with cassina is the most Quixotic thing on the Internet I have ever seen. Only my Mother-in-Law is a more concrete thinker but she commits nothing in writing so it's difficult to gauge the depth and make up of cassina's ferro-concrete certainty in relation to the Mother-in-laws roller-compacted, predefined, fixed-in-time attitudes.

Is it because most of us are blokes and want to fix the broken person's attitudes? Is it because cassina's attitude reflects horribly on the future of motorcycling? Is it because someone, somewhere isn't getting their eggs in the morning?

[Tricia1000]

As far as I know, you will only get an I endorsement for classes of licence that you already previously hold. So a person with car and motorcycle licences, will be allowed to teach both.. If they only have the car licence, then that is all they can teach.. You would need to have previously held heavy goods, in order to teach the classes 2, 3, 4,5. I didn't have to pass any truck questions to get my endorsement. Just car and Motorcyc questions.
The further training for motorcyclists is purely to be allowed to assess CBTA. Unfortunately you can still get an I endorsement through certain providers, with a 4 week course. During that time you don't sit beside a student or teach a student, but at the end of the course, you get your I endorsement. Within one of these providers, the person teaching the potential instructors isn't a driving instructor, so it does get watered down a bit..

Tricia1000
RoADA(Dip)
Consultant to NZTA
Quote=Gremlin;1130917256]The bar for instructors has been lifted. When you sit I endorsement it's for every class (even if you just want to instruct motorcycles), hence you have to get 100% on motorcycle, car and heavy vehicle questions.

Now, you also have to demonstrate further training ie, for motorcycles, we've had a few instructors coming through seeking an IAM Advanced Test pass to demonstrate this.[/QUOTE]

[bogan]

Because I genuinely want to know. Discussing anything with cassina is the most Quixotic thing on the Internet I have ever seen. Only my Mother-in-Law is a more concrete thinker but she commits nothing in writing so it's difficult to gauge the depth and make up of cassina's ferro-concrete certainty in relation to the Mother-in-laws roller-compacted, predefined, fixed-in-time attitudes.

Is it because most of us are blokes and want to fix the broken person's attitudes? Is it because cassina's attitude reflects horribly on the future of motorcycling? Is it because someone, somewhere isn't getting their eggs in the morning?

First reply or two is to just ensure readers know her attitudes/advice are not safe. Bulk of the rest is just plumbing the depths of her self-delusion.

And a bit of that too.

[Tricia1000]

Such an interesting debate! If you are planning to buy a copy of Roadcraft, make sure you get the newly (2013) rewritten version. It is by FAR, a more digestible book.
Tricia1000
NZ Police don't do high speed training (I think it's something about not being able to legally practise at high speed?) while the UK are certified to levels of chase speed. The biggest factor for the officers, is that the higher the speed they are graded for, the greater the burden of responsibility on them, as they should be better, ie, even if a car pulls out in front of them, they should have anticipated. The police here do practise for situations where they are reversed into... (well, positioning, not the actual crunch :confused:)


Just bear in mind that it's a hell of a read for the uninitiated. Don't try to digest in one hit, read a chapter, practise a little, read a bit, etc.

Those joining IAM NZ are given an A5 Riding Standards booklet, which is a condensed version of the book and modified for NZ laws.

[James Deuce]

Such an interesting debate! If you are planning to buy a copy of Roadcraft, make sure you get the newly (2013) rewritten version. It is by FAR, a more digestible book.
Tricia1000
Just don't but it through Amazon or Book Suppository. Shipping will change from $12 to $32 after you've submitted your payment authorisation.

[Tricia1000]

You need a certain amount of intelligence to realise just how stupid you are. :doh:
http://youtu.be/wvVPdyYeaQU

[Tricia1000]

That maybe so Cassina, but graveyards up and down the country will accept you whether you were at fault in the crash or not...
You need to take ownership in your part in these crashes. It is obvious that you were riding at a speed, that you were unable to stop, within the distance that you could see to be clear
You should know that if you ride wrong you dont live long so I must be doing it right despite what you think. You forget the bad crashes I have had have been the fault of others and not due to incorrect riding ability.

[swbarnett]

Is it because most of us are blokes and want to fix the broken person's attitudes? Is it because cassina's attitude reflects horribly on the future of motorcycling? Is it because someone, somewhere isn't getting their eggs in the morning?
No, it's because we don't some poor novice to read they're drivel and take it as unoppsed gospel.

[James Deuce]

No, it's because we don't some poor novice to read they're drivel and take it as unoppsed gospel.
Free advice is worth nothing.

[FJRider]

You missed out my quote saying they were all the fault of others.

Engraved on your headstone will be ... "It wasn't my fault" ... <_<

[husaberg]

317147317148317149317150317151317152

[swbarnett]

Free advice is worth nothing.
Or less than nothing if the wrong advise is taken on board by those that can't be expected to know any better.

[James Deuce]

Or less than nothing if the wrong advise is taken on board by those that can't be expected to know any better.
If you've come here looking for advice, you've most definitely come to the wrong place.

[bogan]

If you've come here looking for advice, you've most definitely come to the wrong place.

Which nevertheless doesn't prevent it from happening, so bad advice can nevertheless be taken on board, lest it be exposed as such.

[swbarnett]

If you've come here looking for advice, you've most definitely come to the wrong place.
The thing is that the novices that don't know this are the ones that are in danger of being sent down the wrong track by others that know not of what they speak.

Also, if you have a vague idea of what you're looking for sifting through the garbage can produce some real gems.

[Gremlin]

Is it because most of us are blokes and want to fix the broken person's attitudes? Is it because cassina's attitude reflects horribly on the future of motorcycling? Is it because someone, somewhere isn't getting their eggs in the morning?

No, it's because we don't some poor novice to read they're drivel and take it as unoppsed gospel.
Yup, what he said. As long as both sides are presented, a newb should be able to at least gain some balanced understanding...


As far as I know, you will only get an I endorsement for classes of licence that you already previously hold. So a person with car and motorcycle licences, will be allowed to teach both.. If they only have the car licence, then that is all they can teach.. You would need to have previously held heavy goods, in order to teach the classes 2, 3, 4,5. I didn't have to pass any truck questions to get my endorsement. Just car and Motorcyc questions.
Follow that then folks, Tricia holds an I endorsement (amongst many other factors)... I don't :D


Just don't but it through Amazon or Book Suppository. Shipping will change from $12 to $32 after you've submitted your payment authorisation.
I bought from Fishpond (NZ site), which at least charges in NZ dollars, although they do drop ship from supplier (usually overseas).


If you've come here looking for advice, you've most definitely come to the wrong place.
Actually, there is some excellent information within KB, just have to sort out the drivel. At lot of good reviews, technical knowledge etc. Doing complex searches (hell, even some van stuff, which made me laugh) often yields KB results...

[James Deuce]

Seldom are both "sides" presented rationally, and I long ceased laughing about anything on this site when it became apparent that "advice" and bravado were leading to deaths.

Motorcycling is turning into a Nana activity for fluoro fetishists. In that context cassina's advice to never ever completely ride all the way around a corner because you'll fall off starts to look like part of the norm.

[GrayWolf]

Engraved on your headstone will be ... "It wasn't my fault" ... <_<

first day on my course waaay back, Tim came in, introduced himself and the evenings discussion topic, and spouted a poem, something like...

here lies timothy wright,
a man who stood firm when he knew he was right,
he went round a corner and came into sight,
a car on the wrong side, that wasnt right,
Here lies Timothy Wright,
he still stood firm when he knew he was right,
even now he's still right, Dead Wright.....

[FJRider]

Or less than nothing if the wrong advise is taken on board by those that can't be expected to know any better.

Advice has no value if you cannot see any worth in it.


Hindsight can increase its value ... and can often lead to you giving the very advice you had ignored.



If I had a dollar for each time I had ... ;)

[Gremlin]

So why would you consider their teaching to result in it being impossible to crash (as they claim) irrespective of who is at fault after passing their course?
Uh... I'm not exactly certain what you're trying to say? One thing I'm going to guess... try and find any course that claims it's impossible to crash. You're clearly not looking at any, because I've never seen one claim that, and I doubt there ever will be. There is no magic bullet.


I bet if someone hit you though their fault I am sure you would lose any thought of OWNING the crash if you were injured.
Owning the crash and owning your part are two separate points. In any crash, you're not going to learn a thing if you spend your time blaming the other side. While legally it may be their fault, you assess objectively and ask yourself (with your increased knowledge through training) if there was anything you could have done differently (ok, I should qualify, I mean reasonably, not, I shouldn't have got on the bike for another 10min) that would have changed the outcome.

[caspernz]

Advanced drivers use a way of driving called “The System” which is derived from the Police “Roadcraft” system of car control. The System of Car Control is a way of driving that allows the driver to approach all situations and negotiate all hazards in a methodical and flexible way that leaves nothing to luck or chance, therefore it will be safe.
The above quote is from the IAM website which I interpret to mean their training will make safe any hazard you confront? What they are trying to claim is in effect even a head on collison could be made safe with their training?

The principle of advanced driving is to make a situation as safe as practicable, you're taking it to an absolute level, which is no longer practicable. In essence if you apply the system in earnest, the vast majority of near misses will allow you to take evasive action. Not fail safe, but in several million clicks on various modes of transport, I for one can attest it works.

But hey, the mind is like a parachute, it needs to open before it can work...:laugh::shit:

[rambaldi]

Advanced drivers use a way of driving called “The System” which is derived from the Police “Roadcraft” system of car control. The System of Car Control is a way of driving that allows the driver to approach all situations and negotiate all hazards in a methodical and flexible way that leaves nothing to luck or chance, therefore it will be safe.
The above quote is from the IAM website which I interpret to mean their training will make safe any hazard you confront? What they are trying to claim is in effect even a head on collison could be made safe with their training?

I can't believe I am about to do this but:

What they are saying is that if you approach all situations with their system in mind you will be as safe as possible. Not that you are guaranteed to survive or anything like that. If a truck drives over you there isn't much that can help you. But maybe you won't get driven over in the first place if you follow their system. If you are aware of your surroundings, and what is happening. If you are aware of what is happening, you could drive around the on coming truck or stop out of the path of the truck or a bunch of other situation appropriate things.

[willytheekid]

But they say doing and passing their training course "WILL" make any hazard situation safe not just "as safe as possible".

:facepalm:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/4b/d5/03/4bd503f5dda52fbd225036e88de0b8ba.jpg

...you can even borrow my coloring book if its gonna help in ANY fuckin way :niceone:

[bogan]

But they say doing and passing their training course "WILL" make any hazard situation safe not just "as safe as possible".

Do they? This is what I read...


Sustained energy. Healthy digestion. Shiny coat.
Switch your dog to an IAMS™ diet and look for
the visible differences yourself.

[nzspokes]

I bet if someone hit you though their fault I am sure you would lose any thought of OWNING the crash if you were injured.

Few years back I hit a car that had pulled into my path. It was dual lane and he was coming the other way and ducked through traffic to avoid going down to a roundabout and coming back up. I was in the lane closest to the footpath. I was watching a 4x4 that seemed to be slowing about 20m away. And bang he was in front of me pulling into his driveway. Yes I was hurt.

As he pulled into my lane my insurance covered it but it went to court as he was not covered and he didnt want to pay. I went to give evidence. We won. Legally it was his fault.

But I should have seen the signs he was about to duck through as there was a gap in the outside lane and he would have been slowing. So that part was my fault for not seeing what was about to happen.

If I was you I would be blaming everybody else. I own my part in the crash.

A dog running out would have to be going very fast for you not to be able to avoid, was it a Greyhound?

[Jin]

cassina is winning this argument

[Berries]

It could be said that those of us who still ride after being the victim of someone elses screwup have learnt nothing.
Yeah, probably. If I had crashed five times and was the only vehicle in four of them I would have taken the hint long before now.

[GrayWolf]

Advanced drivers use a way of driving called “The System” which is derived from the Police “Roadcraft” system of car control. The System of Car Control is a way of driving that allows the driver to approach all situations and negotiate all hazards in a methodical and flexible way that leaves nothing to luck or chance, therefore it will be safe.
The above quote is from the IAM website which I interpret to mean their training will make safe any hazard you confront? What they are trying to claim is in effect even a head on collison could be made safe with their training?

what you are blithely taking out of context and distorting is, the quote you are misrepresenting is for the POLICE trained drivers and riders, they are graded as to the 'speed' etc they are considered skilled enough for. The civilian AIM training is NOT expected to be at 'pursuit speed' levels.
I've relocated this you tube clip from 5th gear....
firstly watch how the Police driver at high speed is extremely relaxed, and as pointed out later the 'style' is extremely regimented, hands '10 to 2', feed the wheel, no crossed hands like a race driver, no heel/toe on brake/accelerator the reading of hazards and the road...then remembering she is a touring car race driver and is using race techniques for driving, and he is using the 'pure' police technique, on track he was only 4 seconds slower... again listen to his dialogue when she is in the car, thinking, not feeling his way through the bends....


http://tinyurl.com/ol4pq9c

then listen to the commentary and ho this police driver 'does it' when on a blue light run on public roads.....

http://tinyurl.com/plktszc

I think you are going to have to realise you are WRONG!

[swbarnett]

the Police should not be necessarily considered better drivers than anyone else as there was a media story some time back about the high number of police vehicles being written off and if IAM police training made them as safe they claim this would not happen now would it? Also there was a crash some years ago where a police officer did a U turn in front of 2 motorbikes and I think killed one or both of them. You are the WRONG one with your thinking and I invite you to look up the stories I have stated. I would be interested in your response if you still think the same way about IAM.
What you say here is relevant to the drivers, not the system. I think you will find that if the drivers stuck to the system religiously these crashes would never have happened. Don't blame the system for the fallibility of those who are supposed to be following it.

[GrayWolf]

The quote I got is not off a police website but the IAM NZ website. It says nothing about having to travel at police pursuit speeds in order pass the course but by passing you will be safe handing any hazard. I have said this before but I will repeat for your interest in that the Police should not be necessarily considered better drivers than anyone else as there was a media story some time back about the high number of police vehicles being written off and if IAM police training made them as safe they claim this would not happen now would it? Also there was a crash some years ago where a police officer did a U turn in front of 2 motorbikes and I think killed one or both of them. You are the WRONG one with your thinking and I invite you to look up the stories I have stated. I would be interested in your response if you still think the same way about IAM.

again you post things completely out of context,,,, as has been pointed out by a previous poster, which had you bothered to read, would not be posting this bullpaki....
DIFFERENCE!!! the UK Police are legally allowed to train under 'pursuit speed conditions' on the public highway, NZ Police receive training MOSTLY dealing with close quarter traffic work. They do not have the 'luxury' of the UK Police training regimen.
Put simply you are attempting to say you know better than a system of driving, developed over 70 years, with THOUSANDS of expert drivers improving, adding to this as times have changed?
The UK Police train the 'drivers' of Royalty and dignitaries, that includes evasion driving training.
The IAM states you will be 'safe handling a hazard', which for fucksake, if you bother to understand that second clip, you can see/hear road reading, threat assessment, anticipation in action on a public road at speed......


Sorry CASSINA, but are you REALLY this thick? :facepalm:

[Jin]

Sorry CASSINA, but are you REALLY this thick? :facepalm:
If she knew she was then she wouldnt be this thick. Catch 22 at work right here :brick:

[FJRider]

Owning the crash and owning your part are two separate points. In any crash, you're not going to learn a thing if you spend your time blaming the other side. While legally it may be their fault, you assess objectively and ask yourself (with your increased knowledge through training) if there was anything you could have done differently (ok, I should qualify, I mean reasonably, not, I shouldn't have got on the bike for another 10min) that would have changed the outcome.

It is my belief ...

Few (if any) riders (or motorists) travel with the belief they will crash. During any ride ... all their actions on the road are carried out with a believed acceptable ... little ... or no risk ... to their own personal safety. A safe outcome after many such actions ... may cause them to believe such actions will be as safe as they were in the past. :shifty:

Risk management is the subject we should be concerning ourselves with. If we believe an action / maneuver we make on the roads is safe ... and we are involved in an accident ... regardless of "Legal" fault ... we should put our hand up and take some responsibility for the end result. <_<

Perceived risk can differ from actual risk ... if some of the risk factors are unknown to you.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing ... it's just a pity we can't get it earlier ... :laugh:

[Gremlin]

I have said this before but I will repeat for your interest in that the Police should not be necessarily considered better drivers than anyone else as there was a media story some time back about the high number of police vehicles being written off and if IAM police training made them as safe they claim this would not happen now would it? Also there was a crash some years ago where a police officer did a U turn in front of 2 motorbikes and I think killed one or both of them. You are the WRONG one with your thinking and I invite you to look up the stories I have stated. I would be interested in your response if you still think the same way about IAM.
I know for a fact that the police motorcyclists undergo significant training and it's an area of speciality that you can only enter after being the cops 2 odd years (this I'm not exactly sure of the details). In contrast, I'm sure recruits are behind the wheel of cars far more easily. I'm unsure how much real training the general police receive for cars.


During any ride ... all their actions on the road are carried out with a believed acceptable ... little ... or no risk ... to their own personal safety. A safe outcome after many such actions ... may cause them to believe such actions will be as safe as they were in the past. :shifty:
Absolutely. This is why IAM is an ongoing process. Doing a day course I don't believe sets you up for the next 20 years. There would be an inevitable slide of skills, bad habits creeping in etc unless skills and techniques are regularly re-inforced. You do something, get away with it... you do it more regularly, you develop a bad habit.


There must be some flaw in the system then for the police to not want to stick with it? I am guessing most of their thinking would revolve around how they are going to deal with the job they have been despatched to go to rather than a lengthy IAMS check list which would result in them arriving later than would be ideal maybe.
There is actually a section of the book devoted to this. The noble cause (rushing to a scene) does not outweigh the risk. Getting there a few seconds earlier vs having/causing an incident isn't acceptable. Worrying about what could have occurred doesn't matter. The situation will likely have changed regardless during the response time.

[Gremlin]

So there are different IAMs teachings for different countries then which I did not know. In view of the fact the UK system is better than ours according to you it does mean, does it not that the police here should be treated as no better drivers than anyone else? I am guessing you must be a sales rep for IAM? Once again if it was so good everyone would be required to pass it before getting a license and it would have to be to the UK standard if the govt was serious about getting the road toll down maybe.
Roadcraft has to adapt to the laws of the country. Order of precedence for NZ is Road User Rules 2004 (legislation), Roadcode (intepretation of law <-), Roadcraft.

UK Police have different laws to NZ Police, so adjustments have to be made. Motoring public have different laws as well (legal to cross to oncoming for cornering is not legal here, here we must always indicate, UK you'd fail, you indicate if someone will benefit). Ultimately, we all follow the roadcraft book, but adjustments have to be made with respect to laws.

No, IAM shouldn't be prior to licence tests. It is not a training organisation, nor do we intend to be (plenty of commercial instructors). It is a charity focussed on road safety (and by extension, believe in upskilling drivers). Also, clearly not big enough to handle a sudden influx country wide. However, in time it grows, and you see the influence of roadcraft through things like Ride Forever and CBTA.

Further, IAM normally accepts applications from riders/drivers that hold full licences and have been riding for around a couple of years. It's not a replacement for licence test training, rather another step after gaining your full licence.

[swbarnett]

There must be some flaw in the system then for the police to not want to stick with it?
Name me a system where 100% of it's graduates adhere to it 100% of the time. The biggest, and possibly only, flaw in a system like this is the human implementing it.

[Blackbird]

So there are different IAMs teachings for different countries then which I did not know. In view of the fact the UK system is better than ours according to you it does mean, does it not that the police here should be treated as no better drivers than anyone else? I am guessing you must be a sales rep for IAM? Once again if it was so good everyone would be required to pass it before getting a license and it would have to be to the UK standard if the govt was serious about getting the road toll down maybe. Maybe instead of getting into a debate with me over it you would be better to put your energy into lobbying the Govt to make it compulsary. I bet you would label the Govt thick too if they turned you down?

In your inimitable style, you've chosen to take GrayWolf out of context. Roadcraft doesn't essentially vary wherever it's taught. However, as Gremlin says, making sure that local legislation is adhered to is paramount. The police both in the UK and NZ use Roadcraft as the basis for training but but also have significant additional training to meet specific needs of their profession which casual riders don't require. That is what GrayWolf was trying to say.

To be quite clear, the system is called Roadcraft and was developed by the UK Police. IAM and RoSPA use Roadcraft as the basis for coaching riders who might be described as riding for enjoyment.

I still can't work out whether you're the biggest troll ever to grace KB or the most ignorant person ever to subscribe to the site. :facepalm:

[Gremlin]

Why do you not think it should be a prerequisite for getting a licence if as they claim they can teach you to handle any hazard safely? You can find yourself in a hazardous situation on day 1 after getting your licence not just 2 years afterwards. Someone driving free of fines or crashes for 2 years would be far less likely to need it than someone on day 1 on the road in my opinion.
You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road. Roadcraft is not some learn-by-rote thing you pass by re-gurgitating it during your test.

As I explain to associates, you have a toolbox of skills and just like any job, you select the appropriate tool from the box for the job at hand. Through IAM you're gaining more skills and knowledge which helps you identify the risks/hazards (information gathering, positioning) and respond in an appropriate way (reduce speed, change position etc).

There are plenty of Instructors and training organisations to help newbies learn how to co-ordinate clutch, throttle and gears. IAM is at the other end of that path with advanced roadcraft. Remember we're all unpaid and contributing our time - and I don't want to be teaching newbies, otherwise I'd become an Instructor and charge for my time etc.

Also, just because someone has been riding for years doesn't mean they're less likely to need it. We've had riders from a number of backgrounds (ex IAM UK, former Instructors, NZ instructors etc) come through, none have yet passed the fast track that was established for some situations. The biggest thing we've found is that even though they've got good knowledge, if they haven't been actively practising the skills they need some work to get back up to standard.

[Gremlin]

So what sort of experience do you expect people to have before doing the course and what actaully is wrong with the driving test to not be able to assess for such experience? For your information the IAM course does teach vehicle operation (they quote correct gearing) from their website but you expect people to have been doing it possibly wrongly for 2 years before you can help them? From what you have said about cost could that possibly be the reason why it is not part of gaining a licence. Did you not know that learner drivers and the elderly are most at risk of having an accident but you are not interested in reducing their risk in the case of learners anyway. It does not make sense to me.
There is no specific experience, just like if they have 1 year and 11 months it's probably fine. It's called a rough guide.

I'm glad you can tell me (for my information) what I should be commenting on when riding with associates. For your information I don't expect to show someone how to balance clutch/throttle and gears to get away smoothly from a stop. I do expect to educate on gear selection for any given piece of road.

So look at the bigger picture. Roadcraft is promoted as part of the charity. Through this promotion (and I may have to explicitly state it's not only IAM doing this as there are consultants to NZTA etc) we have Ride Forever (via ACC), CBTA and Advanced Rider Training days (delivered on track), plus probably more all based on elements of roadcraft, but perhaps not all. There is also that regional program sponsored by AA/Caltex with Instructors. There are NZTA qualified Instructors, who commercially instruct, coming through IAM to seek the extra accreditation to teach CBTA. As such, far more people are being reached than IAM could directly contact, all upskilling and using roadcraft. Driving/Riding tests are getting harder and licences are easier to lose (1 year and 1 day means a re-sit which means examination under the new system).

Things take time, and I would say a lot of people are putting in a lot of work, to lift the average standard.

Well... except for those with closed minds who refuse to think they can be better. :rolleyes:

[caseye]

I've gota Headache!
People, please,no more.
IT will never get what we/you are trying to tell IT.
Because IT really is that thick, that IT can't see how it applies to them.
it is simply not worth the effort.
A brisk, robust discussion about the differences between IAM UK and here would be interesting.

[bogan]

Either there is specific experience or there isnt and you seem to not want to elaborate as to what you would like that to be for some reason. As I said before you debate really needs to be with the Govt if you want to lift the "Average Standard" as you put it and to me that simply means incorporating your teaching in the license test and if not why not?

Why? For your information, a specific experience is not required, as the specificty could well limit the number of the people that would turn up for the training of the motorists on the road; would they not?

For you additional perusal to inform, the govt is bound by popularity is it not, and also the notion of an acceptable loss to which the growth of the economy is pursuant to offset. And additionally informing you of this information for whom it may be directed; all of that is of course offset by the risk of noncompliance is it not.

[Gremlin]

Either there is specific experience or there isnt and you seem to not want to elaborate as to what you would like that to be for some reason.
Well I really can't be arsed, but would IAM have to specify so many km urban and so many rural? What about motorway? What if they don't have a motorway nearby? By mentioning experience it partly helps them. I don't want an associate learning everything I mention by rote. I want them to question and understand why things are done so the skills are better applied. You need experience to do that. They can draw on their own experiences and see if they had approached in a different fashion there would have been a different outcome.


As I said before you debate really needs to be with the Govt if you want to lift the "Average Standard" as you put it and to me that simply means incorporating your teaching in the license test and if not why not?
Thanks for the advice, but that's already well in motion (consultation with government - well, it's actually the agencies that do the hard yards). Did I not mention... no wait, I actually did... tests and assessment are becoming more roadcraft focussed (try passing a test without a headcheck). The thing is, you really seem to lack comprehension. Just because there is no IAM stamp on your licence doesn't mean it's had no input. The fact that roadcraft is being recognised and incorporated IS A WIN (I really don't want to start bolding things, but you needed to see that so I don't have to repeat... again).

[nzspokes]

I'm unsure how much real training the general police receive for cars.



My understanding is they get a day on a track and thats about it. Could be wrong but thats what I have been told. Obviously the M/C guys do heaps of training.

Now for the UK cops, and again I could be well wrong, but isnt it the certed high speed pursuit drivers that do the full roadcraft course?

[nzspokes]

cassina is winning this argument

No she isnt. She is just looking for excuses for crashing so much.

[FJRider]

According to what I have read the ACC have costed our "true responsibility" on the road at just over $2000 for a big bike

You can read ... ?????????????????????????????????????? :killingme


And ... is that $2000 per day .. per year ... or per ride ... ??? :scratch:

Link please ...

[bogan]

You are wrong according to Gremlin and I quote:

You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road. So you think the Govt would not incorporate IAMS training into the license test as it would be unpopular? I assume you mean as it would put the cost up? But on the other hand would such training if its as good as those on here say it is bring the road crash ACC bill down to virtually zero. That is of course you believe any screwup by another party is always avoidable from their teaching.

None of which is a specific experience is it not? That's just general experience; specifically, the general experience of basic roadcraft specificity.

Well it would be, would it not?

No, that would be not, because if all were IAMS roadcrafted (specifically so, for you information), the only crash could only be caused by some IAMS, could it not? The specific sparsity of motorists, would also help to reduce accidents; would it not?

[Gremlin]

A brisk, robust discussion about the differences between IAM UK and here would be interesting.
It would be more interesting than going in circles and it's an inevitable question when migrants from the UK come here and realise that IAM NZ does exist (albeit a tad smaller... like, the country as a whole is currently smaller than some regional groups in UK).

First, IAM structure/membership is mostly the same. Associate, Member, Trainee Observer, Observer, Senior Observer and Examiner are all common. With UK being much much bigger, there are certain things that the national committee decides that all regional groups follow, but then also some policy is left up to the regional groups. While we have regional groups (currently, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Top of the South forming with assistance from Wellington and Christchurch, and Waikato/CNI about to form with help from Auckland) there is effectively one policy for all, with standards cross checked (singing from the same song sheet is the aim but hard with a pile of humans in the midst) ;)

I think in the UK there are some courses where you can gain an IAM pass quite quickly (within weeks), which makes me wonder whether we're at a higher standard (coupled with experiences amongst Observers of oddities, like comfort braking into corners and that most UK riders have to go through the regular process to reach test standard). IAM NZ does have an accelerated process as an option for ex UK riders for example, but often find that either (or both) not being familiar with NZ road law or not practising recently causes them to fail the check, which means it's back to regular process. Otherwise, progress is up to each rider (and assigned Observer). Being 1 to 1, there is no set classes or anything, just pickup where required and go from there. We've had riders with minimal experience, (low km, 3-4 years riding) who've had professional instruction (and it shows) through to serving police officers (plus some being ex UK and IAM and instructors within Police). Naturally time to complete will vary and most of us say the advanced test is more like a benchmark and you continue from there. Some then continue through to the Observing which obviously helps future capacity.

Generally, most would probably progress in 6 months to 18 months, some take longer, some don't complete. Not ideal, but some do come along just for an ego stroke... it doesn't work out. Amongst the Observers we try really hard to have no egos (and expect Associates to be the same), no stupid questions... after all, we're giving up our time to help... laughing at someone doesn't achieve that. Other entities like RoSPA have bronze/silver/gold passes, IAM just has advanced test pass. Theory being, why separate achievement? You either make the grade like everyone else or you don't.

Second, road law. Obviously nothing in roadcraft can contradict the respective countries road laws, so there are variances. Ones I'm familiar with (from riding with ex UK riders) would be, NZ, we indicate basically all the time, legally required. UK, you only indicate when someone would benefit and indicating all the time would potentially see you fail. Lane selection (mostly motorway), undertaking in a separate lane in UK is illegal, they see the lanes in combination. Here, it is legal to undertake in a separate lane (still illegal if within the same lane unless car turning right, stopped etc etc). Lane discipline is far stronger in the UK, but space between interchanges is usually much greater than NZ, for example Khyber Pass and Gillies are really close together and even Ellerslie/Greenlane would be considered close. This means that travelling in the left lane often doesn't work well as you have cars constantly exiting and entering the motorway.

Crossing the centre line (like being on the RHS of the road - oncoming lane setting up for a left hander) is allowed in UK, illegal in NZ. Slight right kink on open corner, you use oncoming in UK, again, illegal in NZ. Argument from UK is that in wet etc, bike is safest upright, or minimising lean. No point arguing here, and personally, I don't see much priority in changing that as there is enough of an issue with drivers unable to stay on the correct side of the road when really required from a safety point of view, without confusing it.

Correct procedure when indicating at roundabouts is often a gotcha and I'm not certain how UK treats Stop signs but we normally have to remind ex UK riders to tidy it up a little, make sure they stop suitably etc.

I've had riders openly ask for a cheat sheet of the differences (and it's been raised amongst Observers) but from my point of view, part of being an advanced rider is knowing the road laws, not just grabbing a cheat sheet and learning what might make you fail the test.

[Gremlin]

My understanding is they get a day on a track and thats about it. Could be wrong but thats what I have been told. Obviously the M/C guys do heaps of training.

Now for the UK cops, and again I could be well wrong, but isnt it the certed high speed pursuit drivers that do the full roadcraft course?
UK cops are really established in that regard. There are classes of speed for pursuit driving. ie, seeing one of the UK shows, the police car had to stop and the two officers swap over because the speeds involved meant only one was certified high enough to continue. As I noted before, the higher their certification, the greater the burden of responsibility on those drivers.

Yes, drivers undergoing certification in the UK have intense courses, all akin to motorcycle, full roadcraft, and actually assess under lights on open roads and their laws allow that. I don't think NZ has anything special in that regard and certainly no pursuit training? Law doesn't allow them to train under lights on open road etc from my understanding.

I doubt there is room in their budget, but I'd personally like to see police drivers upskilled in general, with road based training (obviously not under lights or aspect like that). There has been the odd instances where, as a motorcyclist it was clear as day there was a danger, that did result in a crash. Could further training have made a difference? Can't answer that... Really, any company with a fleet (and drivers) should have an aspect... The bigger truck companies usually have in-house trainers I think and take it seriously, after all, the drivers are in control of seriously expensive rigs... plus good driving yields tangible results in efficiency.


You are wrong according to Gremlin and I quote:

You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road.
Nope, you're wrong. There is no specific requirements for experience, just general. Otherwise, as I said, you'd have to list urban v rural v motorway, what about time of day? Weather? Certain traffic volume (over or under). Hey look, you could write a book on requirements if you did that.

[caspernz]

cassina is winning this argument

If by winning you mean she ends up having the argument by herself, then yes :first::bleh::eek::laugh:

[bogan]

Per year dummy

Per year per dummy?

So what do the rest of us cost then? Is it not. For you information.

[caspernz]

Some of us have broken into song...:eek:

https://youtu.be/w4IinXN1Px0

[bogan]

I thought roadcraft was what IAMs taught which does leave the question about what is taught when sitting your license. I guess some of you would say very little compared to what IAMs teach, but if it was so far removed wouldnt the death toll be so much more than what it is?

It is, clearly, what is taught, being the craft of roading; by the AMs of I.

For your informatory imbuement, it is nothing at all, sitting one's license is a test, is it not?

No, for your information some of us would say less than that, not what it is.

No. People do this thing where they don't like dying.

[Gremlin]

I thought roadcraft was what IAMs taught which does leave the question about what is taught when sitting your license. I guess some of you would say very little compared to what IAMs teach, but if it was so far removed wouldnt the death toll be so much more than what it is?
Nothing is taught when sitting your licence. It's a test, not a teaching lesson.

Since you visited the IAM website, perhaps you noticed the byline on the main page?

IAM NZ is a charitable organisation dedicated to promoting better driving and riding and enhancing road safety, by taking the standard of driving and riding of existing drivers and riders to a level significantly higher than that required to pass the normal driving test.

[nzspokes]

People do this thing where they don't like dying.

Thats probably the most true thing on the thread.

And those that volunteer to run IAM dont like others dying.

[nzspokes]

No wonder then you need IAMS if you feel nothing was learnt when you sat your licence. Its all very well for them to say their course is more advanced than sitting your licence but without any detail listed I would percieve it as being no different to going for my license again as in both cases you are followed and judged are you not?

Do you not understand what happens in a rider licence test?

Do you have a class 6 licence?

[FJRider]

Nothing is taught when sitting your licence. It's a test, not a teaching lesson.



Nothing may be "taught" whilst sitting your (any) license ... but what is more important is what is learned during this process.

Even more important ... is what is retained in actual practice on the road ...

[nzspokes]

Even more important ... is what is retained in actual practice on the road ...

To have crashed 5+ times, doesnt sound like much stuck.

[Gremlin]

No wonder then you need IAMS if you feel nothing was learnt when you sat your licence. Its all very well for them to say their course is more advanced than sitting your licence but without any detail listed I would percieve it as being no different to going for my license again as in both cases you are followed and judged are you not?
Process is listed on the website: http://iam.org.nz/how-to-join/

After applying, you go for a no-obligation ride/drive with an Observer, who'll give you a high level assessment and mention a few key points. You'll also receive a run sheet outlining those key points. You're free to bring along any questions you might have. At this stage, (and for capacity reasons) it's mainly those that have a high level of interest/investment that actively seek out IAM. In time there will be more casual interest when IAM is more widely known.

After the run, you're free to go away and decide (ie, the no obligation part). If you want to join then you make payment etc. You're in Christchurch, there is an active branch. How about you experience it?

I did very little formal training when sitting my motorcycle licences, far more development after it. Passed both car and bike theory 100%. Sat my R and F car tests after they changed them (I sat in 2013) and was already involved with IAM and passed both, commenting to the tester it could be harder, at which point he exclaimed people were already complaining they were too hard (and told me one story about a girl who started crying when it started raining...)

[FJRider]

Its all very well for them to say their course is more advanced than sitting your licence but without any detail listed I would percieve it as being no different to going for my license again as in both cases you are followed and judged are you not?

You perceive wrong ... and if you have not read the details ... you are not qualified to comment on what the course content might entail ... nor it's value to any road user.

[FJRider]

To have crashed 5+ times, doesnt sound like much stuck.

Four of those times ... no other vehicle involved. (and two of them involving dogs ... whats with that .. ?? :killingme)

[caspernz]

Four of those times ... no other vehicle involved. (and two of them involving dogs ... whats with that .. ?? :killingme)

Smells fishy to me...or maybe I smell a rat :brick:

Or maybe Elvis came by in a UFO?

[bogan]

Yes I have a class 6 license and passed it first time too. I was followed and judged just as you would be in an IAM test although I am guessing the IAM test would cover roads beyond city limits. So do you think because my license test was not done on the open road you feel I need IAMs training?

The might, just maybe, for you informationality, test to a higher standard... do they not?

And, I think because you've had 5+ accidents you need IAMs training, did you not, so do you not?

[nzspokes]

Yes I have a class 6 license and passed it first time too. I was followed and judged just as you would be in an IAM test although I am guessing the IAM test would cover roads beyond city limits. So do you think because my license test was not done on the open road you feel I need IAMs training?

With your riding history I would say all the training you can get is a good idea.

[bogan]

I see no point in doing it because I do not believe it can make you bullet proof from the screwups of others on the road as you and your mates believe. If however I had a habit of crashing through my own fault and it happened as often as you lot think maybe then it would be worth doing it to see where I was going wrong.

I'm still struggling to see how you can justify tucking the front end as an accident that wasn't your fault... Is it not true that you personally, for your information, pulled the level that abruptly increased your horizontality?

In additionality for your information, it is possible, nay, advisable, to prevent accidents which are not your fault as well. Staying upright on a bike is simply preferably to having a wee lie down, is it not?

Or is it such an isolated incident that it is not habit forming :laugh:

[FJRider]

I see no point in doing it because I do not believe it can make you bullet proof from the screwups of others on the road as you and your mates believe. If however I had a habit of crashing through my own fault and it happened as often as you lot think maybe then it would be worth doing it to see where I was going wrong.

Your posts have enlightened me ... :yes:

I am now in the belief that common sense is not a gift ... rather a punishment ... <_<

Especially when you encounter some that do not posses any ... :blank:

[nzspokes]

For your information sport I do know how to swerve and break hard however the crashes I have had as a result of the actions of others have happened too fast to even do that which is something you IAMs believers think can not be true isnt it?

With training these things will not be a shock to you.

Maybe grab some training in English at the same time.

[bogan]

For your information sport I do know how to swerve and break hard however the crashes I have had as a result of the actions of others have happened too fast to even do that which is something you IAMs believers think can not be true isnt it?

Sportsfan information broadcast incoming! Cos that is completely at odds with the accident in which you tucked the front though, is it not? If you knew how to break (read brake, obviously you can break bikes) it wouldn't have happened, if you had no time to even do that, it wouldn't have been done. Yet, it was, was it not?

[Gremlin]

I see no point in doing it because I do not believe it can make you bullet proof from the screwups of others on the road as you and your mates believe. If however I had a habit of crashing through my own fault and it happened as often as you lot think maybe then it would be worth doing it to see where I was going wrong.
I've already said there is no magic bullet to stop incidents. Over-confidence after training is also covered in the Police Riders Handbook (Roadcraft). Don't bother doing it if you're not interested in seeing if you can improve, otherwise you're wasting your time, and theirs.

Let's leave the personal attacks out of this thread...

[Berries]

So do you think because my license test was not done on the open road you feel I need IAMs training?
Based purely on the content of most of your posts I would say you should go and have a go with an open mind. If it is shit and you honestly learn nothing then fair enough but at least then you can comment from a position of knowledge rather than an assumption based on a misunderstanding. From some of the things you have said on KB I am frankly amazed that you are still alive - I am quite tempted to start a collection so that it costs you nothing just so that you do have a go and have your blinkers taken off for a minute.

[Gremlin]

The only people who need to take these courses are those who cause accidents either to themselves or others and returning midlife crisis bikers who have become rusty in their riding ability. I am sorry to say but I fit neither catagory.
Sure... all the examples listed so far also include riders that have ridden the world, plenty could probably say they haven't crashed recently. Most have gained something. I try not to jump on a soap box, but generalising... those that say they have nothing to learn are usually the ones that stand to benefit the most.

Those that have no ego, seek to improve and accept feedback are those that improve the most and are usually the better riders. At least with the likes of IAM no-one can argue that improving your riding costs too much.

[GrayWolf]

No wonder then you need IAMS if you feel nothing was learnt when you sat your licence. Its all very well for them to say their course is more advanced than sitting your licence but without any detail listed I would percieve it as being no different to going for my license again as in both cases you are followed and judged are you not?

Cassina,
stop and think for a few minutes, go back and watch the second clip i posted and actually WATCH and LISTEN. Where, anywhere, when you learned to ride your bike, or, drive your car, were you taught how to read the road, position for hazards, anticipate and prepare in any way like that?? Surely as you saw when the 'silver truck' came out on the Police driver, {who was not hanging about} he was calm, confident, prepared and already had allowed for just that situation to occur.
When you take your test here you are taught, 'keep left' correct? Yet on a left hand bend the best position for maximum view round the bend is out by the centre line........ there is one of the most basic contributions that ROADCRAFT has made to most peoples driving, because that simple 'change' of driving/riding technique WAS originated from the Police Roadcraft system.

[Kickaha]

Good luck if you think riding the centre line on a bend is safer than not riding it as bends can vary in their tightness and complexity (trees vegitation etc blocking the view) and in case you were not aware there has been a lot of media stories about other vehicles crossing the cente line on bends and if you are riding the centre line at the same time a head on collision is very likely but if you keep left you could more likely avoid the other vehicle by swerving off the road. In an ideal world what you are saying would enable you to corner quicker and smoother through the bend but we are not living in an ideal world where everyone keeps to their side of the road. I can tell you now that IAMs ridng from what you have said is definitly not for me because you are placing too much trust in other motorists not to screw up.

You are stupider than I would believe possible, nowhere did he say anything about riding the centreline around the entire bend, it is about viewing position, something you seem totally unaware of

[Blackbird]

Cassina chooses to misinterpret everything which has been said by everyone rather than PROPERLY investigating the real facts like a rational human being does. There is a famous saying by a British philosopher which applies perfectly to this situation:

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Never more apt in Cassina's case. I suggest that we don't try and argue rationally any further for our own sanity :wacko:

[GrayWolf]

My critisisim of the practise was based on the fact that he placed a lot trust in other motorists staying on their side of the road which is something you have completely overlooked in your response to me so its you who are the stupid one as far as I am concerned. Not all bends can be seen around at the start and there are bends in the South island where it would be difficult for some vehicles to get around without going over the centre line and this IAMS practise would see you dead if you were to meet up with such a vehicle. The winding road into Kaiteriteri is one such road where riding the centre line would be very stupid especially at holiday time.

Firstly, I said OUT BY, not on........ and you actually shoot your own argument down in flames, in your reply to kikaha " Not all bends can be seen around at the start and there are bends in the South island where it would be difficult for some vehicles to get around without going over the centre "
CORRECT! So, in the case of a blind bend, what about the broken down car just past the apex? At 100km's keeping to the left, you have little to zero braking room, {see, interpret, react, brake} being out towards or out by the centreline you have just increased your vision round the apex by a factor of..... Earlier detection, earlier response. Also {and I am sure that if I went for a ride with Gremlin, he'd come back with a long list of sins} part of 'roadcraft' is ANTICIPATION, you are expecting a car to be over the line, and on such a tight bend as you describe, you would indeed MODIFY your road position, and, if a completely obscured view round the bend, SLOW DOWN to a speed you can stop at within the view available.
Also if you came up north {btw I lived in Invergumboot 14yrs, so know south island roads well} We locally have the rimutaka's which is full of tight twisty bends that we get bloody Artic's on our side of the road. Again on such a bend or series, IAM would teach to plan ahead, look for possible threats {tight blind bends} or if the apex is more open {vanishing point} and adjust your SPEED and position accordingly.
This seems to be your problem, you are so black/white you are incapable of thinking grey. And as I am a person who is on the Asperger's scale, that is NOT a compliment, as I know all about that kind of thinking.

[swbarnett]

I can tell you now that IAMs ridng from what you have said is definitly not for me because you are placing too much trust in other motorists not to screw up.
Quite the opposite in fact. A big part of roadcraft is the constant knowledge that other motorists WILL screw up. Proper roadcraft will give you the best chance of coming out alive and unharmed when they do.

[swbarnett]

...not a riding school as they werent around/promoted back in the 70s.
I don't know about the '70s but they were definitely around in the early '80s.

[Gremlin]

Good luck if you think riding the centre line on a bend is safer than not riding it as bends can vary in their tightness and complexity (trees vegitation etc blocking the view) and in case you were not aware there has been a lot of media stories about other vehicles crossing the cente line on bends and if you are riding the centre line at the same time a head on collision is very likely but if you keep left you could more likely avoid the other vehicle by swerving off the road. In an ideal world what you are saying would enable you to corner quicker and smoother through the bend but we are not living in an ideal world where everyone keeps to their side of the road. I can tell you now that IAMs ridng from what you have said is definitly not for me because you are placing too much trust in other motorists not to screw up.
2 parts to Positioning. First:
Safety
Stability
View

Your position on the road is based on above, in order of priority (so therefore View is last). If something is not safe, you do not do it. Yes, you maintain a right hand position on a left hand bend, but when you sight oncoming traffic (which you'll see sooner in this position, and they'll see you sooner) you sacrifice position for safety. Second, you should always be riding at a speed which you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear (half for a road with no centre line).

You're taking one small aspect of the entire system out of context... it's a lot more complex than that, and we haven't even started talking about linking corners...

[Ulsterkiwi]

All the accidents I have had that have been the fault of others as I have said many times have happened too fast to swerve or brake and I am the sort of person who would change bike if I felt a different model would be safer for me.
Just as an example what does the Roadcraft/IAMs manual say to do if you are coming to the end of a 1 way bridge and another car driver comes onto it thinking it is 2 lane. I would be very surprised if they would have an answer for such a question.

be able to brake in the distance you can see...next?

Of course your question is posed from a position of ignorance. You are passing judgement on a work you clearly have never read. No piece of writing will ever be able to provide a definitive set of instructions for every single possible permutation of the variables involved in using the road. To expect that is the thinking of a very limited mind. What the manual does is provide a reference or framework we can use, others have described it as the roadcraft system. A set of principles which applied to any situation will reduce the risk to you as much as possible. Of course the system is limited by its user, put Marquez on your bike and he will beat most recreational riders into the ground with respect to laptimes around a race track. The mentoring IAM provides is about how to implement the system.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Please dont waste your time going into all the complex technicalities as I remember a very lengthy debate on here about a year ago about cornering and some of us just like to go out and do it and if we get it wrong the corners let us know dont they? As I have said before if you believe IAMS training can save lives you and your mates should be lobbying the Govt/ACC for it to be put in the licensing syllibus.

Its called CBTA.

I wonder, if you were to take the CBTA full licence test how things would go. Surely all your experience would mean you have nothing to fear and could fly through the test?

At my workplace we often discuss a concept known as lifelong learning. Essentially there is always something we can learn or improve with respect to the skill-set we require to do the work we do. Riding is a skill-set. It is a shame for your part that you have gotten to this stage in life and still have not learned there is much to learn. Even beginners can teach an "expert" something.

[bogan]

All the accidents I have had that have been the fault of others as I have said many times have happened too fast to swerve or brake and I am the sort of person who would change bike if I felt a different model would be safer for me.
Just as an example what does the Roadcraft/IAMs manual say to do if you are coming to the end of a 1 way bridge and another car driver comes onto it thinking it is 2 lane. I would be very surprised if they would have an answer for such a question.

How about that one where you were following too close, then panicked and tucked the front end? For your information, is it not. That is entirely your fault. Or is it not what it is, anymore?

[WNJ]

Just as an example what does the Roadcraft/IAMs manual say to do if you are coming to the end of a 1 way bridge and another car driver comes onto it thinking it is 2 lane..

Bit difficult to get the manual out and read it if your riding :tugger:

[swbarnett]

Just as an example what does the Roadcraft/IAMs manual say to do if you are coming to the end of a 1 way bridge and another car driver comes onto it thinking it is 2 lane. I would be very surprised if they would have an answer for such a question.
I can't answer specifically for the "IAM manual" but I have an answer from personal experience. Half way across a one-way bridge where I had the right of way I saw a car approaching that I could not be sure was going to stop. I wound the throttle wide open and left the bridge before they became an issue.

[Gremlin]

Please dont waste your time going into all the complex technicalities as I remember a very lengthy debate on here about a year ago about cornering and some of us just like to go out and do it and if we get it wrong the corners let us know dont they? As I have said before if you believe IAMS training can save lives you and your mates should be lobbying the Govt/ACC for it to be put in the licensing syllibus.
Then why are you in this thread? You have no interest other than to run it down from your point of view and you've never tried it, so can't speak from experience?

[nzspokes]

Just as an example what does the Roadcraft/IAMs manual say to do if you are coming to the end of a 1 way bridge and another car driver comes onto it thinking it is 2 lane. I would be very surprised if they would have an answer for such a question.

They would tell you not to go on the bridge if you cannot be sure the car has or will stop.

But that is common sense<_<.

[caspernz]

Then why are you in this thread? You have no interest other than to run it down from your point of view and you've never tried it, so can't speak from experience?

There is one very positive aspect to the interaction with cassina...:innocent::facepalm:...in that mere mortals all of a sudden take on genius status :shutup:

[Berries]

All the accidents I have had that have been the fault of others as I have said many times have happened too fast to swerve or brake and I am the sort of person who would change bike if I felt a different model would be safer for me.
Well of course a 1982 CB750 is right up there in the braking and handling stakes isn't it?

[GrayWolf]

So now you are saying what I am saying about not riding the centre line does make sense but you did not say you limit the practise to only certain bends now did you? Also I dont know about you but I actually take notice of speed recommendations on bends and always slow for other bends too. I bet I am just as good at riding as you due to you pointing out things in this post that I actually do. The difference is my learning has come from experience and not a riding school as they werent around/promoted back in the 70s.

You have a conveniently short memory dont you?? Obviously this is why you STRUGGLE with a new concept.... I refer you back a few pages to where you harped on that you've been riding since 1976. I pointed out I have been riding since 1974... remember????
AND like you have NEVER stopped riding, I rode 9yrs in English winters, lived in London {traffic} and used to do semi regular weekend thrashes down to Spain through Europe.
So Cassina to use your own learned the 'hard way' ethos, I out experience you!!!!

[Madness]

So Cassina to use your own learned the 'hard way' ethos, I out experience you!!!!

But... which one of you has the bigger cock?

[SuperMac]

It would be more interesting than going in circles and it's an inevitable question when migrants from the UK come here and realise that IAM NZ does exist (albeit a tad smaller... like, the country as a whole is currently smaller than some regional groups in UK).

FYI

http://www.iam.org.uk/images/stories/Members/examiners/common%20confusions%20bike%20july14.pdf

C O M M O N C O N F U S I O N S
There has been a call for some central guidance in relation to ‘Common
Confusions’ on the subject of both Observing and Examining within the IAM. In
order to alleviate this, the following has been produced in consultation with Staff
Examiners across the country and will be added to as further ‘confusions’ are
identified.

[Gremlin]

FYI

http://www.iam.org.uk/images/stories/Members/examiners/common%20confusions%20bike%20july14.pdf
Interesting stuff thanks, particularly noting the "off-siding" on two way... less excuses for those poms coming here :clap:

One thing I did forget that the document mentions is straight-lining a multi-lane roundabout. With respect to conditions, legal in UK, not in NZ, you stay within your lane.

Otherwise, much the same as NZ (with a nod to laws obviously). A thinking approach coupled with common sense.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb236/_Gremlin/MOTCommonSense.jpg~original (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/_Gremlin/media/MOTCommonSense.jpg.html)

[SuperMac]

Interesting stuff thanks, particularly noting the "off-siding" on two way... less excuses for those poms coming here :clap:

One thing I did forget that the document mentions is straight-lining a multi-lane roundabout. With respect to conditions, legal in UK, not in NZ, you stay within your lane.

I would have failed an advanced instructor assessment (in the UK) on one of those points if they'd applied to that test :)

[pritch]

I'm unsure how much real training the general police receive for cars.


I was told a year or so back that the Police recruits do not receive any driver training- they are merely assessed. There may be driver training later in their career, but then they may have to wait twenty years for that.

In recent history a Police car was written off locally and the local commander told the press that the driver was trained to Police Gold standard. When I questioned how this "gold" standard was obtained I was advised that there was no high speed driving component, it was basically an extended version of a normal driving test.

The explanation was in the nature of a white wash, the car had been crashed at speed during a pursuit on a winding road for which the driver was not competent - whether or not he had received any relevant training.

You can't always assume that the cops can't drive though, one of the locals has raced bikes in the Isle of Man so can presumably punt a car along at pace.

[george formby]

I was told a year or so back that the Police recruits do not receive any driver training- they are merely assessed. There may be driver training later in their career, but then they may have to wait twenty years for that.

In recent history a Police car was written off locally and the local commander told the press that the driver was trained to Police Gold standard. When I questioned how this "gold" standard was obtained I was advised that there was no high speed driving component, it was basically an extended version of a normal driving test.

The explanation was in the nature of a white wash, the car had been crashed at speed during a pursuit on a winding road for which the driver was not competent - whether or not he had received any relevant training.

You can't always assume that the cops can't drive though, one of the locals has raced bikes in the Isle of Man so can presumably punt a car along at pace.

Much to my chagrin, quite a number of our local feds have exactly the same bad habits as our average drivers. Failing to stop at stop signs, crossing the centre line, failing to indicate etc. I kinda figured not all officers get advanced training.

[Tricia1000]

One of the areas that would definitely reduce the number of crashes on the road, both bikes and cars, is mandatory insurance.
For instance, a young guy 17-18, in the UK, has just passed his driving test.. In order for him to get insurance, he will need to buy a car, with a cc rating of 1.2 litres or less. The car may only be worth NZ$2300, but his insurance will cost NZ$11,650 PER YEAR.
If he crashes within the first year, then no one will insure him. It most certainly does encourage drivers in the UK to increase their skills, and to drive carefully. Plus if they have successfully passed a RoSPA or IAM test, then they would get a 10-20% reduction in their insurance. This again encourages safe driving. Whereas here, young teenagers are driving around in 2 or 3 litre turbo yadda yadda cars, without any incentive to improve their skills.
When I was working on revamping the BASIC HANDLING SKILLS TRAINING AND TEST, I tried to get NZTA interested in any number of mandatory driving/riding lessons, but they said that they can't introduce that, I think due to something in the legislation. I also tried to get the RESTRICTED LICENCE TEST for motorcyclists discontinued, but, because it was set up to follow the car model, it couldn't be removed..
Some form of mandatory training would also have a huge positive impact on our crash rates. However, instructors in NZ aren't re-assessed once they have qualified. Plus the method for becoming an instructor isn't really best practice, but that's another whole ball game.
It is hard enough to get class 1 and 6 to go on and take their full licence test. People don't see it as a priority when it comes to budgeting from their wages. So to expect these people to then fork out for hours of training....well, they just wouldn't do it.
Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

You are wrong according to Gremlin and I quote:

You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road. So you think the Govt would not incorporate IAMS training into the license test as it would be unpopular? I assume you mean as it would put the cost up? But on the other hand would such training if its as good as those on here say it is bring the road crash ACC bill down to virtually zero. That is of course you believe any screwup by another party is always avoidable from their teaching.

[Tricia1000]

Before the cops are allowed to drive a police car, they have to do the "very watery" AA defensive driving course, which in no way prepares them for driving with lights and two tones.
PLUS, when they first start driving a police car, they don't even have to have a full licence. Restricted will do.

Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

I was told a year or so back that the Police recruits do not receive any driver training- they are merely assessed. There may be driver training later in their career, but then they may have to wait twenty years for that.

In recent history a Police car was written off locally and the local commander told the press that the driver was trained to Police Gold standard. When I questioned how this "gold" standard was obtained I was advised that there was no high speed driving component, it was basically an extended version of a normal driving test.

The explanation was in the nature of a white wash, the car had been crashed at speed during a pursuit on a winding road for which the driver was not competent - whether or not he had received any relevant training.

You can't always assume that the cops can't drive though, one of the locals has raced bikes in the Isle of Man so can presumably punt a car along at pace.

[Ulsterkiwi]

One of the areas that would definitely reduce the number of crashes on the road, both bikes and cars, is mandatory insurance.
For instance, a young guy 17-18, in the UK, has just passed his driving test.. In order for him to get insurance, he will need to buy a car, with a cc rating of 1.2 litres or less. The car may only be worth NZ$2300, but his insurance will cost NZ$11,650 PER YEAR.
If he crashes within the first year, then no one will insure him. It most certainly does encourage drivers in the UK to increase their skills, and to drive carefully. Plus if they have successfully passed a RoSPA or IAM test, then they would get a 10-20% reduction in their insurance. This again encourages safe driving. Whereas here, young teenagers are driving around in 2 or 3 litre turbo yadda yadda cars, without any incentive to improve their skills.
When I was working on revamping the BASIC HANDLING SKILLS TRAINING AND TEST, I tried to get NZTA interested in any number of mandatory driving/riding lessons, but they said that they can't introduce that, I think due to something in the legislation. I also tried to get the RESTRICTED LICENCE TEST for motorcyclists discontinued, but, because it was set up to follow the car model, it couldn't be removed..
Some form of mandatory training would also have a huge positive impact on our crash rates. However, instructors in NZ aren't re-assessed once they have qualified. Plus the method for becoming an instructor isn't really best practice, but that's another whole ball game.
It is hard enough to get class 1 and 6 to go on and take their full licence test. People don't see it as a priority when it comes to budgeting from their wages. So to expect these people to then fork out for hours of training....well, they just wouldn't do it.
Tricia1000
RoADA (Dip)
Consultant to NZTA

I think your referral to the UK system has some merit but does not take the whole picture into account. In the UK model, insurance is there to cover potential personal injury claims as well. These will almost always far and away outweigh the cost of repairing or replacing a vehicle. In that sense the comparison is not a good one because as we all know New Zealand operates a no fault system with ACC, making is illegal to sue someone for personal injury. The cost of insurance in the UK is heavily influenced by the growth of the ambulance chasing legal system allowing claims of a ridiculous nature to result in huge payouts, made even more ridiculous by the fact all health care is free at point of use.
An example, I ran a Renault Espace, a 7 seater 2 litre petrol car. It was worth about 5000GBP. Insurance was costing me 1500GBP a year as an over 35 year old with no accidents and full "no claims" bonus. I asked how I could make premiums lower, three separate companies told me to get rid of a few seats. Engine size and the value of the vehicle and my licence status or training had nothing to do with it at that point.

I know its slightly off topic but I shudder when kiwis talk about compulsory insurance. For one it is tied into not seeing how good ACC actually is (with all its flaws) and for another, once something is compulsory then the insurance companies will have a licence to bump their premiums up overnight. So those already paying insurance will literally pay the consequences and those who drive without insurance will mostly continue to do so. There are plenty of drivers in the UK who do not have insurance even though it is compulsory.

No, the solution to upping standards is raising the level of what has to be done BEFORE anyone gets a licence. Your point about setting funds aside and the way priorities are determined is a good one, once that wee bit of plastic is in someones hot little hand, no further input will be thought of for many.
A driving licence should be a privilege not a right. Privileges are earned.

[GrayWolf]

I think your referral to the UK system has some merit but does not take the whole picture into account. In the UK model, insurance is there to cover potential personal injury claims as well. These will almost always far and away outweigh the cost of repairing or replacing a vehicle. In that sense the comparison is not a good one because as we all know New Zealand operates a no fault system with ACC, making is illegal to sue someone for personal injury. The cost of insurance in the UK is heavily influenced by the growth of the ambulance chasing legal system allowing claims of a ridiculous nature to result in huge payouts, made even more ridiculous by the fact all health care is free at point of use.
An example, I ran a Renault Espace, a 7 seater 2 litre petrol car. It was worth about 5000GBP. Insurance was costing me 1500GBP a year as an over 35 year old with no accidents and full "no claims" bonus. I asked how I could make premiums lower, three separate companies told me to get rid of a few seats. Engine size and the value of the vehicle and my licence status or training had nothing to do with it at that point.

I know its slightly off topic but I shudder when kiwis talk about compulsory insurance. For one it is tied into not seeing how good ACC actually is (with all its flaws) and for another, once something is compulsory then the insurance companies will have a licence to bump their premiums up overnight. So those already paying insurance will literally pay the consequences and those who drive without insurance will mostly continue to do so. There are plenty of drivers in the UK who do not have insurance even though it is compulsory.

No, the solution to upping standards is raising the level of what has to be done BEFORE anyone gets a licence. Your point about setting funds aside and the way priorities are determined is a good one, once that wee bit of plastic is in someones hot little hand, no further input will be thought of for many.
A driving licence should be a privilege not a right. Privileges are earned.

As an expat UK rider, the cost of insurance over there has always been 'high' even back in the 70's when I started, IF you wanted to get high performance vehicles. Way before 'ambulance chasing' occurred, the insurance premiums were geared to 'prevent' young/new/learner drivers from purchasing 'high performance' vehicles. EG A ford cortina mk2, 1600cc, not exactly the epitome of performance and a reasonable premium, UNTIL you went GT or E, immediate 'price hike' for the amazing power delivery that a twin choke webber added to the car.
As a learner rider 200cc or lower had a noticeable drop compared to a 250.
I actually agree with compulsory insurance {3rd party minimum}, as pointed out too many young drivers with what are HIGH PERFORMANCE vehicles without the experience/training/knowledge to use them competently.
The two things that greatly surprised me moving here from the UK is that, learner drivers there are minimum age of 17, and NOT ALLOWED to drive without a full licence holder sitting beside them, at any time or any reason, and that you do not have compulsory insurance here.
Regardless of 'ambulance chasing' the simple fact of being able to claim against in the event of a 'no fault' accident, is more preferable than having to use your own 'fully comp' insurance to repair your own vehicle, and for the insurance company to then take said person to court, and get $5 a week payments for the next 20yrs....

What is a shame, is there was at least one company in the UK that did a 'rider's policy' that actually insured the rider to ride ANY bike fully insured, up to an agreed CC limit on the rider's policy.... and they did do an 'unlimited' cover.

[GrayWolf]

I think your referral to the UK system has some merit but does not take the whole picture into account. In the UK model, insurance is there to cover potential personal injury claims as well. These will almost always far and away outweigh the cost of repairing or replacing a vehicle. In that sense the comparison is not a good one because as we all know New Zealand operates a no fault system with ACC, making is illegal to sue someone for personal injury. The cost of insurance in the UK is heavily influenced by the growth of the ambulance chasing legal system allowing claims of a ridiculous nature to result in huge payouts, made even more ridiculous by the fact all health care is free at point of use.
An example, I ran a Renault Espace, a 7 seater 2 litre petrol car. It was worth about 5000GBP. Insurance was costing me 1500GBP a year as an over 35 year old with no accidents and full "no claims" bonus. I asked how I could make premiums lower, three separate companies told me to get rid of a few seats. Engine size and the value of the vehicle and my licence status or training had nothing to do with it at that point.

I know its slightly off topic but I shudder when kiwis talk about compulsory insurance. For one it is tied into not seeing how good ACC actually is (with all its flaws) and for another, once something is compulsory then the insurance companies will have a licence to bump their premiums up overnight. So those already paying insurance will literally pay the consequences and those who drive without insurance will mostly continue to do so. There are plenty of drivers in the UK who do not have insurance even though it is compulsory.

No, the solution to upping standards is raising the level of what has to be done BEFORE anyone gets a licence. Your point about setting funds aside and the way priorities are determined is a good one, once that wee bit of plastic is in someones hot little hand, no further input will be thought of for many.
A driving licence should be a privilege not a right. Privileges are earned.

Just to add a separate point, insurance in the UK is a legal requirement, a CRIMINAL offence to not have it, and you run a MAJOR risk of your car being crushed if caught..... and they have a system now that automatically alerts for no rego/wof/insurance/licence from a number plate recognition system database. Spotted by a patrol car with a camera??? Your fooked.

[Ulsterkiwi]

Just to add a separate point, insurance in the UK is a legal requirement, a CRIMINAL offence to not have it, and you run a MAJOR risk of your car being crushed if caught..... and they have a system now that automatically alerts for no rego/wof/insurance/licence from a number plate recognition system database. Spotted by a patrol car with a camera??? Your fooked.

both points well made, it is still the case though that insurance in UK is higher in part because of the personal injury element.
And yes more investment is made in detecting those driving illegally, why is that? if there was not a problem why try to detect it?
Making something illegal is in some ways simpler but education is also a vital part of the story. Start off with a higher standard and its easier.

[GrayWolf]

both points well made, it is still the case though that insurance in UK is higher in part because of the personal injury element.
And yes more investment is made in detecting those driving illegally, why is that? if there was not a problem why try to detect it?
Making something illegal is in some ways simpler but education is also a vital part of the story. Start off with a higher standard and its easier.

No difference to NZ or anywhere else really, there are always those that drive/ride with no REGO, WOF, etc,,,,, just with the much larger population getting towards 70 million, it's a cost effective means of enforcement to buy in hi-tech equipment.
Unless it's changed in the last 25 yrs, to get you' 'rego' you had to produce a current insurance certificate and MOT {wof}.

[Ulsterkiwi]

That would be the purpose of maintaining an adequate following distance., thus allowing you time to scan for all hazards including dogs. How are you still alive???????


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[tamarillo]

Well this thread has been a journey. For those with an interest in roadcraft, IAM UK has rebranded and published a new simpler book directed at us riders. You should be able to see it online here. http://issuu.com/iam_roadsmart/docs/rider_associate_logbook_v16_combine

Issuu is free to join and they don't hassle you. There's lots of bike mags there too.




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[nzspokes]

Well this thread has been a journey. For those with an interest in roadcraft, IAM UK has rebranded and published a new simpler book directed at us riders. You should be able to see it online here. http://issuu.com/iam_roadsmart/docs/rider_associate_logbook_v16_combine

Issuu is free to join and they don't hassle you. There's lots of bike mags there too.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Sweet, thanks for that.

I have started my observed rides now. I must be bad, I get 2 observers to cope.

[tamarillo]

Sweet, thanks for that.

I have started my observed rides now. I must be bad, I get 2 observers to cope.

Sweet, good luck. Just had phil down here from up your way (he is chief examiner) and passed my observer test. Phew.


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[nzspokes]

Sweet, good luck. Just had phil down here from up your way (he is chief examiner) and passed my observer test. Phew.


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Yeah I know Philip, good sort.

Ive got some habits to break. Wouldnt mind getting to observer one day but need to make it to full member first.

[Tricia1000]

Sweet, thanks for that.

I have started my observed rides now. I must be bad, I get 2 observers to cope.

Does anyone know how to separate that booklet from the message, so that I can print it off?
I have several students who would benefit from it..
TIA


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[Moi]

Does anyone know how to separate that booklet from the message, so that I can print it off?
I have several students who would benefit from it..
TIA


You can't - "The publisher chose not to allow downloads for this publication"

[Tricia1000]

You can't - "The publisher chose not to allow downloads for this publication"

Bollox.......:no:

[nzspokes]

Sweet, thanks for that.

I have started my observed rides now. I must be bad, I get 2 observers to cope.

Well passed my Full test today. :cool:

My Observer can start therapy now. :lol:

Does that mean the learning stops? Not at all. It means i have meet a minimum standard. The learning keeps going until I stop riding.

Those that are interested in Advanced riding should give an assessment ride a go. Riding becomes a lot calmer and controlled. And that means more fun.

And you meet some good bastards along the way.

[Jeeper]

Congratulations.

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[rastuscat]

Riding becomes a lot calmer and controlled. And that means more fun..

When I read this I chortled. Some on here think fun must involve significant risk taking.

Road Craft promotes progressive riding. Making good use of opportunities. Without increasing risk.

One of the key issues with the IAM process is knowing what risk looks like. Understanding risk. Only then can you mitigate risk.

Some amongst us on KB are all about how shit hot they are, taking risks through marginal riding habits, often without even realising the risk taken.

For many, the end (not binning) justifies the means. Road Craft is about understanding risk and managing it.

And riding progressively and positively with reduced risk is the most fun.

[rastuscat]

Riding becomes a lot calmer and controlled. And that means more fun..

When I read this I chortled. Some on here think fun must involve significant risk taking.

Road Craft promotes progressive riding. Making good use of opportunities. Without increasing risk.

One of the key issues with the IAM process is knowing what risk looks like. Understanding risk. Only then can you mitigate risk.

Some amongst us on KB are all about how shit hot they are, taking risks through marginal riding habits, often without even realising the risk taken.

For many, the end (not binning) justifies the means. Road Craft is about understanding risk and managing it.

And riding progressively and positively with reduced risk is the most fun.

[Blackbird]

When I read this I chortled. Some on here think fun must involve significant risk taking.

Road Craft promotes progressive riding. Making good use of opportunities. Without increasing risk.

Road Craft is about understanding risk and managing it.

And riding progressively and positively with reduced risk is the most fun.

Absolutely Pete! I joined in 2011 and it it completely refreshed my riding enjoyment. For the first time, I had something to objectively measure my own performance and also importantly, those drivers and riders around me. That doesn't sound much in print but the impact has been massive.

[Ghost Lemur]

I don't get how there is an argument about rider training being anything other than a great resource for experienced as well as novice riders.

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[Moi]

A story... let's imagine that riding a bike is a jigsaw puzzle of many pieces - I won't say how many pieces as I hope "why" will be evident.

The more pieces of the puzzle you have the better - understanding of road rules, understanding of the physics of riding, understanding of the environment, understanding of roadcraft, understanding of self, understanding of how your bikes reacts and so on.

More of those pieces that you have at your fingertips the better the puzzle will look. If you have only 1 or 2 pieces and they are both "blue" you are guessing as to whether they are sky or water. A few more pieces and you get a much better picture of what is happening...

[trufflebutter]

A story... let's imagine that riding a bike is a jigsaw puzzle of many pieces - I won't say how many pieces as I hope "why" will be evident.

The more pieces of the puzzle you have the better - understanding of road rules, understanding of the physics of riding, understanding of the environment, understanding of roadcraft, understanding of self, understanding of how your bikes reacts and so on.

More of those pieces that you have at your fingertips the better the puzzle will look. If you have only 1 or 2 pieces and they are both "blue" you are guessing as to whether they are sky or water. A few more pieces and you get a much better picture of what is happening...

It has been my experience with Jig Saw puzzles that the sky and the sea are different colours making differentiating between the two very easy.

It wasn't until I had finished that my questioning as to why the boat was upside down, became clear..:shifty:

[caspernz]

It has been my experience with Jig Saw puzzles that the sky and the sea are different colours making differentiating between the two very easy.

It wasn't until I had finished that my questioning as to why the boat was upside down, became clear..:shifty:

Damn, so they made a puzzle of that photo of me capsizing the boat? :innocent::facepalm::shutup:

[rastuscat]

Bloke came on a course with me a couple of years back.

Wanted to learn how to emergency brake "really awesome" as he was having to emergency brake 2 or 3 times every week to avoid "Idiots" in cars.

That's not a braking issue. It's a lack of awareness issue. I reckon in the last 100000km on the bike i might have emergency braked 2 or 3 times.

Awareness can be taught.

It makes me laugh to think that we spend time teaching people to emergency brake, then spend even more time telling people how to avoid emergency braking.

Sheesh.

[george formby]

Awareness can be taught.

It makes me laugh to think that we spend time teaching people to emergency brake, then spend even more time telling people how to avoid emergency braking.



I think that pretty much covers it. Bikes, A to Z.

[Ulsterkiwi]

I think Cassina, whether or not he in intends to, provides a service to those who read threads like this one. I think its pretty safe to say the message about Roadcraft is a pretty straightforward one. Riding on the road carries risk, Roadcraft is a system to minimise that risk. (Minimise Cassina, not remove). What an obtuse, twisted, sociopathic, manuipulative line of thinking sometimes does, is it challenges otherwise disinterested passers-by to actually think about what was said and come away with an understanding that might not have been gained otherwise. Its a bit like reading on the news sites about Trump, the man is an idiot who cannot see his own shortcomings, what he can do though is get people fired up and thinking, actually considering what they believe in and why.

[nzspokes]

Well for an epic thread dredge, the IAM is still out there doing its thing if you want some more learning on you riding!

[husaberg]

Cassina and another member both left at the same time.....

[nzspokes]

Cassina and another member both left at the same time.....

They gave so much. :facepalm:

[husaberg]

They gave so much. :facepalm:
both on your sig as well
Butt pretty sure both were takers......:lol:

[nzspokes]

Just a reminder, the IAM is still doing its thing. :Punk:

They have a new smart website. https://iamroadsmart.org.nz/

Im taking a break from them at the moment to reno the house but will be back at it soon. :msn-wink: