Technique for tight rutty downhills with corner at the bottom

[nigelp]

I took the DRZ400 on the Danseys Pass trail ride on Saturday and did all but the extreme trail (jumping fences/power poles not my thing). It handled everything well except I managed to go over the bars and cartwheel into the broom in spectacular form. No significant damage other than cuts and bruises but got my thinking about the best way to tackle it. I think I saw 1 other road registered bike doing the ride and I left mine in road form also.

It was a sandy/silty/loose base, one main rut down the middle and very steep (struggle to walk down with bike and it lay down a few times during the walking process) and a tight turn the bottom.

Use speed and end up in the bush or cross rutted and over the bars like I did
Go slow and you can weave and over the bars potential also

Any hints from the wise ones out there?

[puddytat]

Check this fella out....
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/dirt-riding-enduro-cross-training-skills.972472/
A whole heap of helpfulness....
Keep calm & carry on.

[Transalper]

Following puddytats link gives some good videos.
I'm a go slow down the hill guy. I start at the top 1st or 2nd gear with the clutch pulled in so coasting and applying both brakes so I can feel them working each end and feel the feedback from the wheels. I find if I leave the clutch out and rely on engine braking for the rear then I loose back end feel and often end up with the rear unintentionally locked and/or bouncing.
Arse is back and low but not sitting, feet on pegs, I actually like to practice stopping half way down slopes from time to time too but it is quite hard to tell from text or even video on a computer screen how bad the slope actually was.

I ride the main loops with all road gear still on the WR but stay the heck away from Enduro deviations, I have survived some but more often they burn too much energy and sometimes hurt things. If I was on a lighter dedicated dirt bike I might look at doing the harder stuff more often but I have enough fun taking the road kitted, big tanked WR on the main courses.
Always run low tyre pressures and good condition hardly worn trail worthy tyres for trail rides.

[george formby]

Following puddytats link gives some good videos.
I'm a go slow down the hill guy. I start at the top 1st or 2nd gear with the clutch pulled in so coasting and applying both brakes so I can feel them working each end and feel the feedback from the wheels. I find if I leave the clutch out and rely on engine braking for the rear then I loose back end feel and often end up with the rear unintentionally locked and/or bouncing.
Arse is back and low, feet on pegs, I actually like to practice stopping half way down slopes from time to time too but it is quite hard to tell from text or even video on a computer screen how bad the slope actually was.

I ride the main loops with all road gear still on the WR but stay the heck away from Enduro deviations, I have survived some but more often they burn too much energy and sometimes hurt things. If I was on a lighter dedicated dirt bike I might look at doing the harder stuff more often but I have enough fun taking the road kitted, big tanked WR on the main courses.
Always run low tyre pressures and good condition hardly worn trail worthy tyres for trail rides.

I've been practising downhills on me trials bike... Yeah, I'm a cheat. As you say I try to stop the bike on the hill to get a feel for how much grip I have and use bumps, steps etc for extra front grip. What I'm learning translates straight to my bigger bikes and has increased my control a lot. I'm much better at looking further ahead and planning my descent rather than staring a foot ahead of the front wheel. Going down a rutted "cliff" on the bigger bikes I've had to stall and get the bike sideways in gear, controlling the bike with the clutch and front brake as I let it slide down the hill. It ain't pretty but..

[Tazz]

What tyres are you running?

Wouldn't say I do anything too 'hardcore', but there are a few decent hills around here with loose stone and a rock (eek!) or clay base.
I find them easier to ride down than up funnily enough :laugh:

Standing over sitting every time, bum low and over rear, lower your pressures, namely the front (hugely important) Don't just sit down and lock the rear brake the whole way down like so many people seem to do, it makes it harder not easier. Tyre choice would play a big part as well. You really have to trust the front, but if you're leaning back you should just fall to the side rather than go tits over if it slips.

The speed thing is hard as a little momentum defiantly makes it easier but I find if I try and modulate too much (faster then slower) on steep shit I'll either wash out or start going faster than I'd planned to.

It all really depends on the hill too.

I would go practice on a knarly short steep hill with a few wee ledges but a friendly run off (not a hairpin and a cliff ;) ) and go from there.
Don't stop and start either if you don't have to. Keep looking and planning ahead. Sometimes it's easier to just hit a tricker bit (still under control mind) in the long run than stop and think about it or zig zag around it.

[Padmei]

In my eyes it is pretty black & white. There are people that will be able to climb & descend hills effortlessly, stylishly & smiling - they will be the same ones that could do the loop off the money bars at school & there's people that will just fuck it up, break their bike, break the peoples bikes who have stopped to watch them break their bike, & wonder why they took up fricking motorbikes in the first place.

I am not going to say which kind of people I am.:baby:

[nigelp]

Check this fella out....
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/dirt-riding-enduro-cross-training-skills.972472/
A whole heap of helpfulness....
Keep calm & carry on.

Thanks some great vids there!

I may not be riding for a bit - found out I have injured my rotator cuff in the crash so off riding for a but!

[nigelp]

What tyres are you running?

Wouldn't say I do anything too 'hardcore', but there are a few decent hills around here with loose stone and a rock (eek!) or clay base.
I find them easier to ride down than up funnily enough :laugh:

Standing over sitting every time, bum low and over rear, lower your pressures, namely the front (hugely important) Don't just sit down and lock the rear brake the whole way down like so many people seem to do, it makes it harder not easier. Tyre choice would play a big part as well. You really have to trust the front, but if you're leaning back you should just fall to the side rather than go tits over if it slips.

The speed thing is hard as a little momentum defiantly makes it easier but I find if I try and modulate too much (faster then slower) on steep shit I'll either wash out or start going faster than I'd planned to.

It all really depends on the hill too.

I would go practice on a knarly short steep hill with a few wee ledges but a friendly run off (not a hairpin and a cliff ;) ) and go from there.
Don't stop and start either if you don't have to. Keep looking and planning ahead. Sometimes it's easier to just hit a tricker bit (still under control mind) in the long run than stop and think about it or zig zag around it.

I was running Michelin S12's with 2/3 tread left. I had he pressure at 15psi - admittedly sitting down.....

It really ruined my flow (confidence) during the ride - will have to find some steep hills to practice on around here - the rest of the ride felt ok on the bike just that sketchy part.

[Waipukbiker]

One thing that really does work is called " Poor mans ABS" If ever you feel the bike is starting to get away on you, Rapid hard pulses on the front brake as long as the wheel is straight. I was raised on a farm and going down grassy or muddy slopes was everyday stuff and this method saved me from a 'runaway' many times. Works bloody well on shingle too. Just be carefull if there are riders behind you as you will stop a lot quicker than they will.

[Woodman]

Start slow, keep engine running and clutch slightly pulled in so it has a bit of drag. Use mostly front brake and a bit of rear. If the bike gets away on you then gently use front and try to avoid the rear wheel locking up. Keep an eye out for something to slow your descent if the bike runs away e.g. large rut, bush, bank or ditch. My preference is to keep the engine running. Hate losing the engine. Stand up, but if it is really steep and gnarly then sit down and paddle. Be prepared to jump off.

[XF650]

I was running Michelin S12's with 2/3 tread left. I had he pressure at 15psi - admittedly sitting down.....

It really ruined my flow (confidence) during the ride - will have to find some steep hills to practice on around here - the rest of the ride felt ok on the bike just that sketchy part.

You have a bloody big hill right in front of your house Nigel (I wont tell anyone).
Know what you are going through - steep descents always freak me out.

[nigelp]

You have a bloody big hill right in front of your house Nigel (I wont tell anyone).
Know what you are going through - steep descents always freak me out.

Mt Iron isnt a bloody big hill is it? Last time I checked they didnt like motorbikes in there...:bleh:

[Transalper]

I was running Michelin S12's with 2/3 tread left. I had he pressure at 15psi - admittedly sitting down.....

It really ruined my flow (confidence) during the ride - will have to find some steep hills to practice on around here - the rest of the ride felt ok on the bike just that sketchy part.

S12 supposed to be pretty good tyres, I don't know how good they still are with 2/3 tread left, the best bit might be gone now. I'd likely have stopped doing trail rides with them like that and just keep river bashing until I felt I'd had my money's worth out of them.
I've never run 15 psi on a trail ride, always been about 10psi both ends, sometimes 8 at the rear, that's from the advise of the guys whose advice I respect, except one who likes less again.
I had a single conventional rim lock on each wheel but now with the Tubliss installed I go down nearer 6psi rear, 8 front with a soft walled Goldentyre brand tyre I'm trying out.

[bart]

Start slow, keep engine running and clutch slightly pulled in so it has a bit of drag. Use mostly front brake and a bit of rear. If the bike gets away on you then gently use front and try to avoid the rear wheel locking up. Keep an eye out for something to slow your descent if the bike runs away e.g. large rut, bush, bank or ditch. My preference is to keep the engine running. Hate losing the engine. Stand up, but if it is really steep and gnarly then sit down and paddle. Be prepared to jump off.

I'm with Woodman on this. Aim for a rut of flat spot where you can haul the brakes on momentarily. Rounded ruts can be a pain in the arse to balance your bike through, but give a larger contact area for the tyre so allow you to brake harder. Stick to the uphill bank side so you can jam the front wheel into the bank (beats going over the downhill side).

Feather the brakes and you can usually find the point where the wheels are about to lock (a bit like Waipukbiker says, but not so agressive). Let a bit of air out of the tyres helps lots.

[Night Falcon]

my 2cents.....all the above but the trick for me is to start the decent as slow as you can feathering front and rear brakes, weight far back as you can. Most important tip is line selection. If its real steep I'm always looking for lines that have the best eject areas. Ruts are good as you can get better grip and lock the front in them. Real loose stuff I'm never afraid to hop off and slide the bike down.

I've ridden with guys who ride down stuff I will only slide down and they make it look easy, Invariably gravity will get you to the bottom one way or another. A healthy dose of fear and cowardice has always helped me to avoid the ambulance at the bottom of cliff descents - still working on the top of the cliff ones :facepalm:

[Tazz]

I was running Michelin S12's with 2/3 tread left. I had he pressure at 15psi - admittedly sitting down.....

It really ruined my flow (confidence) during the ride - will have to find some steep hills to practice on around here - the rest of the ride felt ok on the bike just that sketchy part.

Knobblies. Awesome :D Unless it's wet I haven't found tread to matter much on descents, but knobblies are (as a rule) a softer compound and more 'flexy' construction than those A/T style bike tyres, which does help.

10-15 is all good. Depends if you're loaded up or not too. I'm rarely loaded to the teeth so I go as low as 8, but it's usually on accident (I just open the valve and do the scientific as 1 PSI a second count).

I reckon if you stand up next time you'll instantly find it much easier and natural reflexes will kick in regarding where your body should be.
You'll probably go a little faster as you won't be doing the start stop shuffle that usually happens when sitting, but you will have more control and enjoy it a lot more for sure.