Downsizing - interesting read.

[AllanB]

A link to a link and I found this wee gem.

I know of some happy 675 Street Triumph owners with no interest in the bigbore Speed.

http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/why-smaller-is-better?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Image+-+Why+smaller+is+better+-+Downsizing+from+a+KTM+990+SMT+to+390+Duke&utm_content=12/19+-+CT+Digest+103&utm_campaign=12/19/2015

[Blackbird]

Good find!

It probably depends on the type of riding you do too, but I downsized from a Blackbird to a Street Triple and loved it. There was a slightly uncomfortable feeling of dropping down in capacity (testosterone?) but it didn't last for long :rolleyes: . Power to weight ratio wasn't massively different and the handling of the Triple was so much better. When it recently came up for replacement, the intention was to replace it with another one.

For reasons which aren't relevant here, I recently ended up with a GSX-S 1000. Enormously grunty, but heavier and not quite so nimble. There aren't many occasions when you can use all of the power and to be honest, the Gixxer doesn't offer me anything more than a Street Triple would. I fully understand the sentiments of the article!

Incidentally, a friend in the US has a Duke 390 and he loves it to bits. The only drawback in his view is a somewhat limited tank range.

[Tazz]

Different buzz for different folks.
Unless I have money to burn and live close-ish to a decent track, or the autobahn (which would probably get boring pretty quick anyway) I don't think I'll ever be getting a 1L+ power ranger mobile.
Slow vehicle fast vs fast vehicle slow and all that.

[caspernz]

Downsizing might be the wrong term in this context, I view it more as right sizing. In 30 or so years of riding, I've owned various sizes of bikes, going up and down in cubes to suit the intended purpose.

Bikes are a lot like the women we choose, whatever rings your bell :innocent:

[WNJ]

Personally loved my TLS for power ( love the torque from low ) but loving the 636 for speed (faster then TL) plus it's cheaper for a commuter, doin approx 500 k+p/w :banana:

[Blackbird]

Downsizing might be the wrong term in this context, I view it more as right sizing. In 30 or so years of riding, I've owned various sizes of bikes, going up and down in cubes to suit the intended purpose.

Bikes are a lot like the women we choose, whatever rings your bell :innocent:

Spot on! My choice was largely driven by wanting something lighter as I got older and not having to carry a pillion. Future-proofing I suppose. Even so, a light bike with a bit of grunt really refreshed my riding enjoyment.

[pritch]

Funny timing. I've been banging on about this for a couple of years now. As it happens I have an appointment with a dealer in just under an hour to discuss this very thing.

Nothing may come of it but the intent is there. Two models currently under consideration one of which is a KTM, although a 690 not a 390.

Gotta go.

[jasonu]

Fair comments.
Me though, I like to twist the throttle in top gear at 50ks and have something happen. Lazy???

[george formby]

Funny timing. I've been banging on about this for a couple of years now. As it happens I have an appointment with a dealer in just under an hour to discuss this very thing.

Nothing may come of it but the intent is there. Two models currently under consideration one of which is a KTM, although a 690 not a 390.

Gotta go.

Good call. My dad bought a 390 but exchanged it for a 690 after a few months. It did not take long for him to run out of woo hoo on the 390.

I'm a great fan of light (small) bikes with a bit of attitude. Up here, all the roads are very twisty so handling trumps power every time. My fav bike for getting the adrenalin going is my DT 230. I can absolutely cane it without getting into trouble and a really good ride leaves me gibbering like an idiot. Also low maintenance, low running costs (excluding 2t oil) and very easy to push around when I'm shuffling me bikes.

[Tazz]

Fair comments.
Me though, I like to twist the throttle in top gear at 50ks and have something happen. Lazy???

Ever ridden a motard? If not, you should.

[Asher]

I brought an RC390 after crashing my 636. I don't have the KTM anymore but while it was fun they do have big draw backs. I was actually surprisingly quicker than most of my mates in the hills, being small and light weight meant I could brake incredibly late and carry huge corner speeds. That might sound good and fun (which it kinda is) but it means to keep up with bigger bikes and get the same speed rush you are used to you have to ride the pants off them 24/7 and late braking/high corner speeds on Canterburys terrible roads isn't always a good combination.
Another draw back of smaller capacity bikes is that are cheaper which is initially great until you realise where they have saved costs. It's typically suspension and brakes where the money is saved, I'm sure a lot of people aren't fussed about it but riding a bike with mediocre brakes and non adjustable suspension designed for someone 40kgs lighter than you sucks.

[GrayWolf]

Maybe it's more about 'useable' power? Reality is, apart from the ego driven who will argue, there are bugger all roads in NZ where you can 'safely' use anything like the full performance of the 1L+ rocketships. I still own the ZZR1100, and that is still a formidable weapon. Yet the CB1300 is a much 'better' ride for outright usable power in everyday riding. I'm with JasonU on that one, twist the grip at 50kph in top, and something happens.

[jasonu]

Ever ridden a motard? If not, you should.

I also like the 120 to 180kph roll on a big bore offers.

[Big Dog]

Downsizing might be the wrong term in this context, I view it more as right sizing. In 30 or so years of riding, I've owned various sizes of bikes, going up and down in cubes to suit the intended purpose.

Bikes are a lot like the women we choose, whatever rings your bell :innocent:
Do you mean how most of us pine over slim chassis and big headlights but in the real world we end up with hayabusas, bandits, cb1300s etc?

Sent via tapatalk.

[Jin]

Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more. For commuting that might be okay but for longer trips will get old very fast.

[TheDemonLord]

Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more. For commuting that might be okay but for longer trips will get old very fast.

Depends - if your Missus is on the back or not....

[Autech]

"My bike loan was cut in half, but so was my ego. Right? I can’t be a man with a small bike, can I?"

Not ego in my experience of smaller bikes, as nothing inflates the head more than caning a guy on a big bike on a shitty 250. Especially and exceptionally shitty 250 like a Hobag.

I agree with the above though, better off on a smaller bike around town. I remember racing my mate on our 250s from every set of lights all the way up Queen street without breaking too many laws. A round a bout on a 250 is a new adventure every time. So much fun, once I bought my 600 I think I started having a lot less fun riding. One of the reasons why when I chucked it down the road I didn't replace it with another 600 and instead went for a piddly old 400 for a laugh.

Surprised to see an American making this choice though, you don't see too many smaller cc bikes over there as they are allowed to jump on anything straight away. Guy lent that lent me a Diavel in Canada was a new rider and it was his first bike, lunacy considering in Sport mode that bike would easily chuck off an unwary rider in spectacular fashion, it had a few barely controlled slides with me riding it.

[GrayWolf]

Do you mean how most of us pine over slim chassis and big headlights but in the real world we end up with hayabusas, bandits, cb1300s etc?

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yeh but the CB1300s type woman will give you one of the sweetest rides you've ever had :bleh::bleh:

[caspernz]

Do you mean how most of us pine over slim chassis and big headlights but in the real world we end up with hayabusas, bandits, cb1300s etc?

Sent via tapatalk.


Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more. For commuting that might be okay but for longer trips will get old very fast.


yeh but the CB1300s type woman will give you one of the sweetest rides you've ever had :bleh::bleh:

Careful fellas, the PC brigade might be on high alert...

[Tazz]

Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more. For commuting that might be okay but for longer trips will get old very fast.

Going by that generalised and somewhat flawed logic big pig bikes will always make you more tired because they require more effort to throw around the corners at a decent pace :bleh:

What you're not taking into account is engine type.

And what is a small engine anyway? Bike engines go up to 2.5/2.6L or so?
With that in mind is anything under 2000cc small? Do you measure it from production where maybe due to the sheer volume produced anything over 100-150cc would be considered big?

In some countries that 390 would be considered a bigger bike.

[jasonu]

Going by that generalised and somewhat flawed logic big pig bikes will always make you more tired because they require more effort to throw around the corners at a decent pace :bleh:

What you're not taking into account is engine type.

And what is a small engine anyway? Bike engines go up to 2.5/2.6L or so?
With that in mind is anything under 2000cc small? Do you measure it from production where maybe due to the sheer volume produced anything over 100-150cc would be considered big?

In some countries that 390 would be considered a bigger bike.

I never considered the engine in my RZ500 small.

[Gremlin]

I've owned 5 bikes... and never dropped capacity (250, 748, 998, 999, 1170). HP wise, going from 998 (ZX10R) I dropped on the 999 (990SM) and then about the same on the 1170 (GSA). Right tool for job, definitely. Downsizing is more fun? I don't think so.

I don't really enjoy the small amount of city riding I do on the GSA. A continent crusher on the Auckland motorway... no, it's too large, bars are wide, and if I have luggage on (only on a trip) I can pretty much forget trying to lane split. However, I enjoy the CB919 commuting, which is technically quite large. It is bigger than others for splitting, but also has plenty of grunt off the lights and tootles on the motorway no problem. I could go with a smaller bike, say, around 600, but the Hornet is so damn reliable. However, the regular road suspension is a chore on the open road and the BMW much better.

A mate has a Duke 390 and I took it for a spin from Waipu to Mangawhai while he rode the GSA. I was up and down the gearbox like a rowing boat, too much change in speed meant I had to change 1, or often 2, gears otherwise there was nothing there. Light and flickable sure, but constantly going up and down the gearbox was a chore. My mate reckoned gears were unnecessary on the GSA with oodles of torque whenever he wanted it. I'd never really considered it had lots, but then realised just how much torque I was used to.

Getting rid of the ZX10R I tried the 690SM and found the single cylinder too ring ding (but bear in mind the HP I was used to), so settled on a 990SM, which was indeed mental fun (as another mate with a 690SM commented when he tried the 990). I rode a single cylinder G650GS as a loan bike when the GSA was in this month... yup, still don't like single cylinder bikes. I'd avoid BMW if that was the only one I'd ridden :mellow: Nup, much preferred getting back on mine...

For a personal bike I doubt I'd consider anything under say, 800cc any time soon. After all, there is no upper rego limit after 599... so go for your life :laugh:

[Askor]

Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more.

100% bullshit.

Depends on the engine configuration/if it has a counter balance shaft/what engine it is.

Like saying a 125cc bike is slow. Well, a shitty old 125cc farm bike is slow, but those 125GP bikes aren't too shabby..

[boman]

I have gone from a 675 Daytona, to a 1L BMW. I do not regret the move.

The bigger bike is easier to ride in all aspects than the 675, and is a blast to have a splurge on.

The bigger bike is also easier to tour on, and getting through the traffic is effortless.

[98tls]

Horses for courses blah blah blah...go back ahh :facepalm:ok go way back and think dirtbikes,most with average ability wanted bigger ie CRs/YZs etc but when they got the things fact was they actually went quicker on 125s and in fact got hosed when racing guys with real ability onboard 125s.

[AllanB]

In cc I have been technically downsizing over the last few bikes, GS1200ss, CB919 Hornet, not the 848 Ducati. Prior to the 1200 was a 750.

However,


The smaller cc Ducati is the lightest, most powerful of the above rides.

And vibration? Ducati has zilch that I'd describe as vibration compared to the IL4's - engine configuration more than capacity.


Back in the early 80's when looking for a new Kawasaki I was tossing up between a 750 or 1000 - I remember the shop guy describing the 1000 as a lazy mans 750 in that outright power did not differ much but torque did.

That was back when the smaller the capacity the cheaper the bike - there was a reasonable dollar difference between the two I remember.

[pritch]

but those 125GP bikes aren't too shabby..

Ummm wot 125 GP bikes? :whistle:

[Askor]

Ummm wot 125 GP bikes? :whistle:

You know what I mean :bleh:

[neels]

The best solution is still to own more than one bike, after all he who dies with the most toys wins, right?

Smaller and lighter wins around town, my duc is a bit of a pig commuting, much more fun on the drz

[Voltaire]

I've got a BMW R80ST, its a blast on twisty roads and commuting, but on the motorway its low gearing means its a bit busy.
Its 1983 so have to wait another 7 years for the reg to drop to under a $100 a year like the R90s which is an ok commuter but happier on the open road.
I had a Z1000 back in the day, and then went to twins after that, not really interested in fat pig bikes, even the Ducati St4S was a fat lump....friggen water cooling.
Slow down and take in the scenery.

[cheshirecat]

I went from a CBX1000 to as Goldwing once, mainly London riding with weekend tours to Euro. Surprisingly the Wing was pretty good cross country with all that easy torque making for high averages in comfort (for eighties bikes). Made me think torque was king. Few years later ended up with a VF500 spending a few years London DRing. Brilliant bike and far safer at speed than the CBX now I have a 21 year old VFR750 and it does everything - shopping, commuting, touring, dog carrying - so well there is no desire to change up or down or even ride another bike, well perhaps the new Africa Twin.

[ruaphu]

The two up perspective as wifey and i ride two up all the time and our bikes have typically been set up for it.

Started off the large HP sportbikes (in hindsight poor choice really) the bigger the better. Pillioning, er nah, just horrid.

Had the medium size dual use types, yep cool at the time but ya got sick of not having any decent grunt on hand when ya need/want it. Pillioning, yep but the lack of grunt just makes it a hand full more often than not.

Back to sports tourer types, again the bigger the cubes the better life was and the bonus of better torque. And best still, Had the ability eat my licence with ease like sports bikes haha. Pillioning was fine with the extra cubes and grunt on tap. The more grunt the easier/safer it was to manage road life and the usual tasks we chuck at our machines.

Hated cruisers till i actually got onto mates large cubed bike. Err, what a handful in the corners, braking was a negotiation to say the least! Those issues aside, the up side was the comfort, the relaxed ride and most of all.............that oh so easy to use bucket loads of torque on tap at any time.

Yep thats what does it for us, large cubes and a tonne of torque with low engine revs, make for brilliant two up riding.

We've finally ended up with a large cubed, 171Nm torque monster cruiser that handles everything we throw at it two up.

Day trips are a breeze, touring is great, cafe trips via the back roads still fun.

My usual 85km round trip work commute is done with ease no stress and 40mpg

In our view for two up riding ya just can't beat cubic capacity for ease of use, comfort, touring and playing silly buggers it just makes sense. We'll pass on the smaller capacity machines.


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[Autech]

To sum up this whole thread "Horses for courses"


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[McWild]

"My bike loan was cut in half, but so was my ego. Right? I can’t be a man with a small bike, can I?"

Not ego in my experience of smaller bikes, as nothing inflates the head more than caning a guy on a big bike on a shitty 250. Especially and exceptionally shitty 250 like a Hobag.


Completely agree with this. I never had more of an ego on bikes than on my RGV250 when I was busy buying into all the "A good rider on a small bike will always", pinning it everywhere, you don't need more than xxx CCs for the road type of stuff. Little bikes have a way of making you feel like you have to thrash it everywhere and, moreover, that it's ok to thrash it everywhere because it's a little bike.

Awesome getting a bike with a nicer torque curve and taking a fucking chill pill.

[sidecar bob]

The bloke talks like you can only have one or the other. (He also talks about a loan as if that's normally part of having a bike too)
I have a two stroke 125 sports type bike parked next to a 1200 adventure bike, with a 675 Daytona nearby & a few classics. All are great, but I wouldn't like to have to choose one.

[AllanB]

The bloke talks like you can only have one or the other. (He also talks about a loan as if that's normally part of having a bike too)
I have a two stroke 125 sports type bike parked next to a 1200 adventure bike, with a 675 Daytona nearby & a few classics. All are great, but I wouldn't like to have to choose one.


Most of us mortals can only have one.


So if circumstances dictated that you could only park one bike in your garage - what would you pick?

[Mike.Gayner]

Out of my 1050 and my 350, I'm riding my 1050 95% of the time.

[Zamiam]

Well you could go 1690cc with the performance of a 250cc and have the best of both worlds like me - just get a Harley lol

[Autech]

Well you could go 1690cc with the performance of a 250cc and have the best of both worlds like me - just get a Harley lol

So true! I remember many an occasion on the road where a Harley was only fractionally quicker than my Hyosung out of a corner (just enough to make overtaking them difficult) yet miles slower on the corner. Basically I would get held up for ages as every time we hit a small straight the guy would accelerate enough to stop me getting past. Fucking awful! Trick was a plan ahead, sit back hammer a corner hard enough n slingshot past IF there was no car coming


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[AllanB]

Well you could go 1690cc with the performance of a 250cc and have the best of both worlds like me - just get a Harley lol

Haha.

Is that why the HD's ride in packs?

[jasonu]

The bloke talks like you can only have one or the other. (He also talks about a loan as if that's normally part of having a bike too)
I have a two stroke 125 sports type bike parked next to a 1200 adventure bike, with a 675 Daytona nearby & a few classics. All are great, but I wouldn't like to have to choose one.

You must be really rich just to afford the rego government gouge.

[nzspokes]

I guess that one reason I like my VTR so much. I can run it hard through the gears without ending up going way to fast. And it has personality. I had a Hornet 900 which was boredom on wheels. Its not the fastest but with some Ohlins and Racetech it handles well.

Doesnt sound half bad either.

I quite like our Bandit 1200 as well, with a few carb mods it has a great top end and sounds good. Again few suspension mods and it keeps up on the twistys.

And both are worth less than the yearly depreciation of "New Good" bikes.

[sidecar bob]

You must be really rich just to afford the rego government gouge.

It's cheaper to take the fine.
To answer previous question, if I really had to choose only one, it would be the R1200gs. It's so useful compared to the rest, which are just toys by comparison.

[Voltaire]

It's cheaper to take the fine.
To answer previous question, if I really had to choose only one, it would be the R1200gs. It's so useful compared to the rest, which are just toys by comparison.

1976 bikes are now under a hundy a year now :niceone: ( wonder how long the roll over date will go for, the Poms stopped in for 1973)

Hmmm if I could only have one bike I'd build up a mono BMW 1000 ADV bike using a mid 70's donor bike.

[James Deuce]

Smaller engine is going to vibrate a lot more. For commuting that might be okay but for longer trips will get old very fast.
You should probably stop riding right now and just play computer games.

[James Deuce]

I want to replace my 2007 Versys 650.

With a new one.

But can't. Fuck you Kawasaki NZ.

It's perfect. Handles, carries a lot of stuff, wheelies, is comfortable but doesn't scare me to death.

[nerrrd]

I want to replace my 2007 Versys 650.

With a new one.

But can't. Fuck you Kawasaki NZ.

It's perfect. Handles, carries a lot of stuff, wheelies, is comfortable but doesn't scare me to death.

FYI check this thread post #17:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174411-2015-Kawasaki-Versys-650-in-NZ?p=1130928415#post1130928415


Got this back from an dealer a few weeks ago "hot off the press Kawasaki is bringing in 1 shipment in Feb 16, estimated price of $14995 and only 6 coming for NZ"

I tried to find a 650 Versys to test ride at a dealer's when I was looking for a new bike a couple of years ago but couldn't; not the most popular here it would seem.

[James Deuce]

FYI check this thread post #17:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174411-2015-Kawasaki-Versys-650-in-NZ?p=1130928415#post1130928415



I tried to find a 650 Versys to test ride at a dealer's when I was looking for a new bike a couple of years ago but couldn't; not the most popular here it would seem.
Specifically after an LT, so they can get double fucked. Will probably buy a MV Stradale 800 instead.

[AllanB]

YEah - at $15 the MV is not a lot more if you haggle

[nerrrd]

Specifically after an LT, so they can get double fucked. Will probably buy a MV Stradale 800 instead.

Looks amazing, wonder how comfortable it would be though.

Or you could upsize!

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-1003265518.htm

[James Deuce]

Looks amazing, wonder how comfortable it would be though.

Or you could upsize!

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-1003265518.htm

The thou is a big fat whale with no redeeming features except a mid range rush. It is terrible on gravel. It's like trying to steer a 300kg balloon.

The riding position of the Stradale is practically the same as the Versys 650.

[Ocean1]

Specifically after an LT, so they can get double fucked. Will probably buy a MV Stradale 800 instead.

Thought about one of these? http://www.benelli.com.au/bikes/tnt899/

[Ender EnZed]

How about the Tracer?

[AllanB]

I was talking to a Tracer owner a couple weeks back. He was very happy with his purchase. Not a bad looking ride for that style either. And that engine sounds sweet with a pipe ....

[James Deuce]

Thought about one of these? http://www.benelli.com.au/bikes/tnt899/
Haven't seen anyone selling them here. The Clean Motorcycles guy doesn't return phone calls. Any retailer worth their salt should be at work on Christmas day.

The LT Versys comes with bags. I have Givi V35s on my current one and they're brilliant. The couple of grand necessary to add them to a standard new Versys makes it cost about the same as the Stradale that Motorad have with expandable semi-hard bags standard.

I might just go "sod it" and buy the Stelvio in Scooterazzi.

[James Deuce]

I was talking to a Tracer owner a couple weeks back. He was very happy with his purchase. Not a bad looking ride for that style either. And that engine sounds sweet with a pipe ....

The Carterton dude won't do roadbikes and the Upper Hutt dude never has demos. Which leaves Filco in Nelson and Freedom in Palmy as the next closest dealers. Again, buying a luggage system for the bloody thing makes it really expensive. May as well buy an MV. :msn-wink:

[Ocean1]

Haven't seen anyone selling them here. The Clean Motorcycles guy doesn't return phone calls. Any retailer worth their salt should be at work on Christmas day.

The LT Versys comes with bags. I have Givi V35s on my current one and they're brilliant. The couple of grand necessary to add them to a standard new Versys makes it cost about the same as the Stradale that Motorad have with expandable semi-hard bags standard.

I might just go "sod it" and buy the Stelvio in Scooterazzi.

Fair enough. Do they have the wherewithal to service it?

Seems a common thing in NZ to remove luggage from touriers landed here and flogging it separately. BMW and KTM have both done it, even with top end with models that sell off shore complete and unadulterated.

[James Deuce]

Fair enough. Do they have the wherewithal to service it?


Yes. Guzzi specialists.

[vifferman]

I'd like to get another bike, but... each time I think about it, it just doesn't make senes, as the VFR does everything I want it to, and I don't think I'd find something else that is such an all-round great bike. I've had it over 11 years now, and it's clocked up over 100,000km (two-thirds of those under my bum). The only thing I am tempted to buy is an electric scroter or bike, as most of my riding the last few years has been commuting to work, 15 to 20 minutes each way, and although I've had no problems with the VFR (and the commute is always interesting if not great fun), it is expensive in terms of overall costs.

[mossy1200]

Finding the 1200 one of the easiest bikes to ride in town I have ever owned. Light clutch and tips into corners at low speeds very easily.

[pritch]

Thought about one of these?

They look cool but though they were originally Italian they are now Chinese and there have reportedly been quality problems in the UK. BIKE say that model's the pick of their range "but it's no Triumph".

[Ocean1]

They look cool but though they were originally Italian they are now Chinese and there have reportedly been quality problems in the UK. BIKE say that model's the pick of their range "but it's no Triumph".

Almost all marques are at least partially made in China. Safe to say most of the lower price range are all made and assembled there.

I looked at that TNT and it's big brother a year or so ago, with no real interest in buying but although they've obviously been "designed" largely via the application of a "styling exercise" the basic engineering is good and a close look at the finish impressed me.

Speaking of design theory and eastern manufacture, didn't you recently look at a KTM 690?

[pritch]

Speaking of design theory and eastern manufacture, didn't you recently look at a KTM 690?

The 690 is still under consideration but I was unaware that it came from India. The smaller ones do I know, and there have reportedly been some minor quality quibbles with those.

On the other hand the Triumph twins were also under consideration to a lesser extent, and they all come from Thailand and have done for years. And so do many of the Hondas sold here these days. And the scooters are from India.

There was somebody here who had worked in China said the piece of information you needed when buying anything made in China was whether the customer company had somebody checking what came off the production line. That particular piece of information, of course, is not available. Chinese get the idea of getting the stuff out the door, the concept of quality control has not reached the same level. Benelli is Chinese owned so there is no Italian at the end of the line. (History might suggest that an Italian QC dude might not be the perfect answer anyway?)

Meanwhile I'll be checking KTM690 parentage.

Update: Only reference I can find quickly refers to "European built"?

[Ocean1]

The 690 is still under consideration but I was unaware that it came from India. The smaller ones do I know, and there have reportedly been some minor quality quibbles with those.

On the other hand the Triumph twins were also under consideration to a lesser extent, and they all come from Thailand and have done for years. And so do many of the Hondas sold here these days. And the scooters are from India.

There was somebody here who had worked in China said the piece of information you needed when buying anything made in China was whether the customer company had somebody checking what came off the production line. That particular piece of information, of course, is not available. Chinese get the idea of getting the stuff out the door, the concept of quality control has not reached the same level. Benelli is Chinese owned so there is no Italian at the end of the line. (History might suggest that an Italian QC dude might not be the perfect answer anyway?)

Meanwhile I'll be checking KTM690 parentage.

Update: Only reference I can find quickly refers to "European built"?

Yes, I believe the 690 is made in Europe, Austria even, as you say further down the model range definitely India.

There's a definite xenophobic tint to Chinese business behaviour, and I'm not sure I see that changing through application of normal international QA compliance protocols. You still need the other "partner" in any joint venture China based manufacturing for that reason alone.

I've been told it's impolitic to attribute behavioural traites to specific ethnic groups, but seeing as how you've obviously not been told yet I'll observe that if there's a bunch of dudes one might consider attention to detail in quite the same fanatical light as your average Austrian engineer I've yet to meet one.

What else is under consideration?

[AllanB]

In a previous employment I dealt with several Hong Kong printing companies that during our association moved their plants to China (HK was too expensive - massive multi colour printers are typically horizontally arranged in series (each colour has it's own unit), the real estate is so expensive in HK they run these machines vertically between floors! ).

Anyway - the parent company (HK) had very good quality control in China and after the first few runs when we went to China to check on each print we dropped the trips. The proofing system was first rate and forwarded for approval prior to a full print.

Quality control of MC's have often been a issue with one specific part from a specific supplier letting the side down. Aprilias first set of V4 pistons spring to mind. I can't think of a real disaster of a ride from a name brand manufacture for a long time. Hmm there was a run of Suzuki Bandits with smokey pistons (oil holes too large), Honda had a cam eater V4 in the 80's ...

[cheshirecat]

I remember when Jap bikes were considered low quality and laughed at. Bought a little CB160 as a first bike and was astounded at the quality, engineering nous and just about everything. Was years ahead of the Bantam, I traveled all over the place on it, even commuting 70 miles 3 days a week once..

[pritch]

What else is under consideration?

I'll go ahead and make your day - a made in Thailand Honda?

Then again on the China thing, nothing to do with bikes though. In the past I have bought Columbia brand shirts and jackets from Farmers. Last time I went to do so I was told that the entire nationwide shipment had been returned to China because of poor quality. I haven't seen any Columbia branded items since but I may check again soon.

I was not happy with Air NZ planning on farming out engine maintenance to China because if the job had to be signed off it very likely would be -whether the job had been done or not. Such things happen in "highly regulated countries". (To quote a person from China.)

To be fair though in the past I have extolled the virtues of the Government of China which has been a leader in reforming criminals into useful members of society. They turn them into organ donors. :whistle:

China will probably be a motorcycle manufacturing powerhouse in future. Maybe not for a while yet though.

[Ocean1]

I'll go ahead and make your day - a made in Thailand Honda?

Then again on the China thing, nothing to do with bikes though. In the past I have bought Columbia brand shirts and jackets from Farmers. Last time I went to do so I was told that the entire nationwide shipment had been returned to China because of poor quality. I haven't seen any Columbia branded items since but I may check again soon.

I was not happy with Air NZ planning on farming out engine maintenance to China because if the job had to be signed off it very likely would be -whether the job had been done or not. Such things happen in "highly regulated countries". (To quote a person from China.)

To be fair though in the past I have extolled the virtues of the Government of China which has been a leader in reforming criminals into useful members of society. They turn them into organ donors. :whistle:

China will probably be a motorcycle manufacturing powerhouse in future. Maybe not for a while yet though.

Well, I've had about equal no's of Honda and KTM, and I haven't had a go on a 690 but I very much like the idea of a big tractable lightweight road thumper for... well everything but touring.

I think that if you went through any bike part by part asking where it came from you'd find that China is already the largest manufacturer of motercycles. Assembly is the another matter, and as you've observed, any fault found is much less likely to be reported in a Chinese factory, culturally you don't bring your boss bad news, just doesn't happen. And yet the boss requires this box to be ticked. So ticked it is.

Nor was I happy with Air NZ, for the above reason but also because it's the death of a complete industry in NZ. Other countries, without the human capital we have in any given industry will subsidise the fuck out of any service contract tender just to help build that capacity. Whether they've currently got the ability to service the contract or not. And here we've just chucked away not just the couple of hundred jobs the contract represents but any chance of ever reacquiring them. It's not as if Air NZ was on the bones of it's arse, having been rescued by the govt not so many years ago they were doing very well.

Never mind. We've got minimum wage. And The Dole. And they don't.......

[nerrrd]

China will probably be a motorcycle manufacturing powerhouse in future. Maybe not for a while yet though.

I gather these Chinese made bikes haven't gone down all that well in NZ looking at the price now ($6490 - they were $9995 originally.) I believe the engine is based on the same twin as in the Versys/er650.

http://trademe.tmcdn.co.nz/photoserver/full/436624401.jpg

http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-1007031830.htm

[Duncan74]

I gather these Chinese made bikes haven't gone down all that well in NZ looking at the price now ($6490 - they were $9995 originally.) I believe the engine is based on the same twin as in the Versys/er650.



Part of the reason may be thaat when they have an interested customer (me) then they didn't respond to an email. Trying to find a stockist was almost impossible, not helped by the circa 1993 website that bounces between the AU and NZ.

Led me to conclude that servicing and ackup were going to be a challenge, even if I bought two for the price of the wee-strom, one as a spare....

[pritch]

I gather these Chinese made bikes haven't gone down all that well in NZ looking at the price now ($6490 - they were $9995 originally.) I believe the engine is based on the same twin as in the Versys/er650.



I used to be a fan of the Honda Deauville - until I heard the exhaust note. Yeah, shallow I know.

The Deauville was a small tourer very similar to that Chinese one but powered by the same engine as the Transalp. In Britain Deauville owners were older than average and did way higher miles than average. The bike wasn't what you'd call quick but it could be ridden for long distances in relative comfort. Like right across Europe or whatever. It being such a useful bike Bluewing in their wisdom didn't import them. They were latterly made in Spain too so they shouldn't have been too expensive.

My needs have changed though, shorter rides will be a bigger percentage of my riding.

[release_the_bees]

I'm also considering selling my two existing bikes and getting a Ninja 300 or rc390. Over the Christmas break I took the CBR250 down to Masterton to see if I could live without the SV1000. Initially, I thought I'd find the trip boring, but it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable trips in years being on the ligher, more flickable bike.

What also surprised me was that the trip was actually quicker on the CBR compared to the SV due to the better tank range meaning I didn't have to stop as often.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[mossy1200]

I gather these Chinese made bikes haven't gone down all that well in NZ looking at the price now ($6490 - they were $9995 originally.) I believe the engine is based on the same twin as in the Versys/er650.



http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/motorbikes/tourers/auction-1007031830.htm

2year warranty even if you sold it for half 2 years later its only 16hundy a year. Wish my bikes only lost that much per year.
Wouldn't be a bad second bike for a sports bike owner to take the other half for a ride every so often.

Im smelling bad raps now though.

[Moi]

I used to be a fan of the Honda Deauville - until I heard the exhaust note. Yeah, shallow I know.

Yes, very shallow...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j8yGwK9AsU

You can't hear the exhaust over the whine of the shaft drive and the noise of the very reliable gearbox... :whistle:


The Deauville was a small tourer very similar to that Chinese one but powered by the same engine as the Transalp. In Britain Deauville owners were older than average and did way higher miles than average. The bike wasn't what you'd call quick but it could be ridden for long distances in relative comfort. Like right across Europe or whatever. It being such a useful bike Bluewing in their wisdom didn't import them. They were latterly made in Spain too so they shouldn't have been too expensive...

What would we riders know about what we would like to ride? Well, what would we know?

[Moi]

2year warranty even if you sold it for half 2 years later its only 16hundy a year. Wish my bikes only lost that much per year.
Wouldn't be a bad second bike for a sports bike owner to take the other half for a ride every so often.

I'm smelling bad raps now though.

I'm sure the same was said by British bike riders when the first Jappas arrived...

[AllanB]

My lawn mower sounds better than that Honda!

[rocketman1]

The only reason I would downsize, is if I got too old for my spindly shanks too hold a big bike up.
Nothin, Nothin compares to the raw torque that big motors excude. End of story.

Yes you can get some satisfaction out of little "gay" puddle jumpers, screaming their heads off.

Its like comparing a V8 mustang to a 2L turbo Mitsubishi
Both go well aye.

But only one has soul. it aint the Jappa

[jasonu]

Quality control of MC's have often been a issue with one specific part from a specific supplier letting the side down. Aprilias first set of V4 pistons spring to mind. I can't think of a real disaster of a ride from a name brand manufacture for a long time. Hmm there was a run of Suzuki Bandits with smokey pistons (oil holes too large), Honda had a cam eater V4 in the 80's ...

MVX250 rear cylinder issues.

[grbaker]

Interesting thread...

I gone CB250RS -> GPZ250 -> GSX750F -> RF900R -> SV650S -> GS1200SS over 20+ years and had a few others as a second bike (ZX6R, MZ800, MG 940).. it really depends what you want to the bike to do for you. I commute and tour.

I really enjoyed dropping form the RF900 to the SV650, used most for a 30k commute and weekend fun, but then going up to the GS1200SS and enjoying big bore grunt way down not really caring about the slower cornering but loving the mile eating ride.

Been looking at a new ride for a while and think I could be happy with anything 600cc+ that isn't too cramped and puts a smile on my face... so maybe something new, never owned a Yammie, KTM or Triumph.

[Navy Boy]

Tried a Street Triple? If not then I can recommend one! :eek:

As for downsizing - I've done this a few times and always enjoyed the outcome. But then I just enjoy riding full stop... :2thumbsup

[release_the_bees]

I'm also considering selling my two existing bikes and getting a Ninja 300 or rc390. Over the Christmas break I took the CBR250 down to Masterton to see if I could live without the SV1000. Initially, I thought I'd find the trip boring, but it turned out to be one of the most enjoyable trips in years being on the ligher, more flickable bike.

What also surprised me was that the trip was actually quicker on the CBR compared to the SV due to the better tank range meaning I didn't have to stop as often.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
Phase one completed: The Sv1000s has been sold.

Time to go and test ride some potential replacements.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[Bass]

As suggested, it all depends what you want the bike to do.
I got back into bikes seriously on an RF 900 which I really enjoyed, but then the wife discovered the back seat. We started covering some big miles 2 up but couldn't carry the necessaries for days away.

So I came to the conclusion that I wanted: -
1. Something that was reasonably light and nimble so that the twisties were still fun and the occasional track day not entirely out of the question.
2. Comfortable 2 up over significant distances,
3. Factory luggage because the aftermarket stuff is generally wide and ugly.

Those 3 narrowed the choices heaps and meant that a small bike wasn't an option.
It came down to:-
1. Aprilia Futura
2. Sprint ST
3. VFR 800

The Aprilia was a bit of an orphan with some vulnerable design features (e,g, flashers in the mirrors).
I never found a VFR with the factory luggage.
So I wound up with a 955 Sprint ST that we put 130,000 km on.

In the meantime I did a bit of adventure riding and discovered that all the best bits of NZ are down a gravel road somewhere and so, wanting to show the wife some of these places, I added some gravel capability to the list of desired features.
Net result was a new R1200GS and I think it's the best bike I've ever owned. Bloody should be too, given the price of the thing.
It's already done about 12,000 km in the western USA and according to wifie, is easily the most comfortable ride we have owned.

Bottom end torque is huge and the top end is still impressive. The handling is closer to neutral than anything else I have ridden. Haven't had the balls/stupidity to try it but I suspect that releasing the bars in a corner would result in it holding the line that had been established. I think it will be the last bike I own (arthritis in the wrists) but having said that, my DR isn't going anywhere either.

Small bike just doesn't do it for me.

[release_the_bees]

This is a bit of a thread dredge, but I thought it might be interesting to give a bit of an update since my previous post on this topic. Since that time (last April) I sold my other bikes and have been exclusively using a Yamaha R3.

Prior to this, my ownership history probably resembles a lot of other riders — I started out in the mid-nineties on a 50cc scooter, and gradually worked my way up to an SV1000S, over several bikes of ever increasing weights and engine capacities. Motorcycles have always been my primary transport, so over time I ended up at a crossroads where the bike that I was riding was great for touring, but not so good for the daily commute, so I ended up with two bikes, one (a CBR250) for commuting and the other (a SV1000S) for touring.

Having two very different bikes was great initially, but over time things changed: due to ever increasing home and work responsibilities I found myself having less and less time to ride the SV1000S, to the point that having two bikes no longer made sense. I still commuted daily, so I needed a good commuter, but I also needed a bike that I could take on the odd weekend blast, plus longer trips, two to three times a year.

I’d been considering downsizing for a while prior to actually following through with it. However, for a long time, there weren’t a lot of options available in that capacity range. In an ideal world, I would have got a VFR400 or similar if they still made them — I seriously considered several older 4 cylinder 400cc bikes, but I didn’t want to deal with the hassles of an older bike being my primary transport. Finally, with the release of the RC390, R3, Ninja 300, and so on, there were at a few newer options available, so I started looking at them.

Prior to taking the plunge, I took my CBR250 down from Auckland to Masterton. I wanted to see whether I could live without the power, torque and general touring prowess of a bigger bike. What I didn’t expect was one of the most enjoyable trips that I’d had in a very long time — there is something intensely satisfying about riding a small bike hard through the twisties that I just don’t get with a bigger bike. Vinegar Hill, and the back roads outside of Turangi were an absolute blast. That said, I did need a bit more poke for overtaking things than the 250cc bike offered.

My mind made up, I started trying out some smaller bikes, and after trying a few of them (Ninja 300, Ninja 400, RC390, CBR500, R3) I finally settled on the Yamaha R3, which I bought last April. I’ve now clocked up 15,000 Kilometres (mostly commuting, with a few longer trips).

As expected, the R3 ticks all the commuter boxes — it is light, flickable, cheap to run and doesn’t chew through consumables. As a tourer, the R3 is surprisingly capable, although a slightly larger fuel tank would be beneficial (it gets around 300km per 14 litre tank). If you’re in the sweet spot in the rev range is also surprisingly quick for a small bike and it handles better than any bike I’ve ever ridden (perhaps with the exception of my brother’s old RS250).

So what is it like to live with a smaller bike and do I miss having a bigger bike? Sure, sometimes it would be nice to have a bit more power, but I don’t need a lot more to satisfy my needs. If my R3 put out another ten to twenty horsepower, whilst keeping everything else unchanged, it would without a shadow of doubt be my perfect bike.

Would I recommend owning a smaller bike to others? Well, obviously, that depends on what it is that you enjoy about motorcycling. But in a perfect world, I’d recommend having both a smaller and a larger capacity bike if the opportunity exists. From my own perspective, as I went through the progression of getting bigger and more capable machines, I lost something that I didn’t realise that I had lost — the thrill of riding a bike hard and relatively close to its limits is intensely satisfying. You just can’t ride a bigger bike that way on the road for sustained periods without seriously risking life or licence.

[husaberg]

MVX250 rear cylinder issues.

VF750 chocolate cams
XR250 RE and RF head cracking
VT250F cam chain tensioners and many many other issues
CX honda camchains
RC30 crankshafts (first model)
Suzuki GSX electrics and stators.
YZF450 frame cracking.
Bimota V due leaky crankcase, poor injection set up, QC issues

[Voltaire]

I bought a PX 200 Vespa before Christmas for a bit of fun, slowly heading towards mobility scooter.

[Berries]

Prior to this, my ownership history probably resembles a lot of other riders — I started out in the mid-nineties on a 50cc scooter, and gradually worked my way up to an SV1000S, over several bikes of ever increasing weights and engine capacities. Motorcycles have always been my primary transport, so over time I ended up at a crossroads where the bike that I was riding was great for touring, but not so good for the daily commute, so I ended up with two bikes, one (a CBR250) for commuting and the other (a SV1000S) for touring.
I commuted on an SV1000S for ten years and never had a problem. Changing lanes in stationary traffic by weaving between cars would be the only issue due to its size but you only have to do that down here when the Santa Parade is on.

I downsized last year due to boredom and have stumbled on to the perfect commuter bike, a GSXR750. It ticks every box apart from not being able to store my helmet under the seat, and to be fair that is not high on my list of required features.

[babysteps]

I bought a PX 200 Vespa before Christmas for a bit of fun, slowly heading towards mobility scooter.

I had my PX200 up the Mt Cook ski field road and through the Hakataramea, they'll go anywhere :2thumbsup

I'd have another one in a heartbeat

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj250/moanaman/DSCF0020.jpg

[Ocean1]

I bought a PX 200 Vespa before Christmas for a bit of fun, slowly heading towards mobility scooter.

Nawt wrong with a mobility scooter...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/tSzamjjumEk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Voltaire]

Nawt wrong with a mobility scooter...



Send the link to Casandra, as long as keeps away from Bingo group rides would be fine for Akaroa GP on Pension Day.:scooter:

[Ocean1]

Send the link to Casandra, as long as keeps away from Bingo group rides would be fine for Akaroa GP on Pension Day.:scooter:

I've been collecting bits for a while. So far I've got a ZZR600 complete engine/systems, cart slicks and wheels and the beginnings of a chassis. Dead mobility scooters look to be a dime a dozen.

But I'm thinking the ZZR is too big to hide under any realistic bodywork. And let's face it you'd struggle to actually more torque than a 450 dirt bike motor makes.

I've been looking for something low profile, horizontal-ish cyl maybe?

[AllanB]

I would have fitted wheelie bars to that scoot before riding it!

[Hads]

I downsized too, a lot more fun, went from a KLX250 to a KDX200, the KDX is a lot more fun on the Akaroa Highway.

[husaberg]

I've been collecting bits for a while. So far I've got a ZZR600 complete engine/systems, cart slicks and wheels and the beginnings of a chassis. Dead mobility scooters look to be a dime a dozen.

But I'm thinking the ZZR is too big to hide under any realistic bodywork. And let's face it you'd struggle to actually more torque than a 450 dirt bike motor makes.

I've been looking for something low profile, horizontal-ish cyl maybe?
Suzuki Burgman 600
328224328225328226

[Ocean1]

Suzuki Burgman 600
328224328225328226

Different. But too long.

I'm keen on the idea of a sleeper. Something that wouldn't look too out of place in the supermarket, creeping around on an electric secondary. So it's got to fit, (without too many sticky-out bits) inside something like this: http://www.trademe.co.nz/health-beauty/mobility-aids/scooters/auction-1250911261.htm

I could chop and channel the body to gain 100mm extra in any direction, but that's about it.

One of the more serious design constraints is the need for a differential. Probably wouldn't need one for the business of hooning around town at speeds likely to be seen as inappropriate, and possibly slightly illegal, but for creeping around I reckon you'd need one.

Unless, (and I've just thought of this), you just direct drive the main engine to a solid rear, (go-cart style) and save the main engine for hooning and then fit an electric drive via sprag clutches to each rear axle. No reverse but.

[husaberg]

Different. But too long.

I'm keen on the idea of a sleeper. Something that wouldn't look too out of place in the supermarket, creeping around on an electric secondary. So it's got to fit, (without too many sticky-out bits) inside something like this: http://www.trademe.co.nz/health-beauty/mobility-aids/scooters/auction-1250911261.htm

I could chop and channel the body to gain 100mm extra in any direction, but that's about it.

One of the more serious design constraints is the need for a differential. Probably wouldn't need one for the business of hooning around town at speeds likely to be seen as inappropriate, and possibly slightly illegal, but for creeping around I reckon you'd need one.

Unless, (and I've just thought of this), you just direct drive the main engine to a solid rear, (go-cart style) and save the main engine for hooning and then fit an electric drive via sprag clutches to each rear axle. No reverse but.

Shit there is not much room their is there
Maybe lift the goal posts
http://www.trademe.co.nz/health-beauty/mobility-aids/scooters/auction-1248303289.htm

[Grumph]

Shit there is not much room their is there
Maybe lift the goal posts

that's just asking to be turned into a SMART car.

Mr Ocean's first choice could IMO have a small block Guzzi stuck up front with a little cosmetic modification. You'd still keep the 'lectric for stealth mode - and reverse. No diff needed IMO, just a right angle drive - but if you did want one, one wheel could freewheel on a one way clutch hub.

[husaberg]

that's just asking to be turned into a SMART car.

Mr Ocean's first choice could IMO have a small block Guzzi stuck up front with a little cosmetic modification. You'd still keep the 'lectric for stealth mode - and reverse. No diff needed IMO, just a right angle drive - but if you did want one, one wheel could freewheel on a one way clutch hub.

Likely amnywhere a guzzi would fit so would a CX Honda
Maybe a Goldwing 1000 as well if the cowl was lifted up

[Ocean1]

Mr Ocean's first choice could IMO have a small block Guzzi stuck up front with a little cosmetic modification. You'd still keep the 'lectric for stealth mode - and reverse. No diff needed IMO, just a right angle drive - but if you did want one, one wheel could freewheel on a one way clutch hub.

Guzzi is still too long. The one way hub is a reasonable default design, same as my lawn mower. One thing my mower does if you gas it in a corner though, is to completely ignore any steering input and go straight into the hedge.

Engine is probably just a big dirt bike single with a lectric start. Or something like an ER6 twin. Think you could stuff all that inside the body, plus a decent battery and a 24v secondary drive. Be a bit rowdy though...

[husaberg]

Guzzi is still too long. The one way hub is a reasonable default design, same as my lawn mower. One thing my mower does if you gas it in a corner though, is to completely ignore any steering input and go straight into the hedge.

Engine is probably just a big dirt bike single with a lectric start. Or something like an ER6 twin. Think you could stuff all that inside the body, plus a decent battery and a 24v secondary drive. Be a bit rowdy though...

If its compact you are after why not a gas turbine now that would be a most excellent noise.
328233
http://jetandturbineowners.proboards.com/thread/528/turboshaft-outboard-jetboating-gentlemen