NZTA response to question about wire rope barriers. [Archive]

Moi

27th January 2016, 10:31

The following appeared in the NZ Herald on Tuesday 26 January 2016 in response to a question sent to 'Ask Phoebe'.

This is being posted for your information...

I would like to know how the NZTA can justify installing wire rope barriers on our main roads. Have you seen what happens to a motorcyclist should they come off their bike and hit one of these?

If you're not decapitated and killed outright, the injuries are horrific and usually limbs are lost.

This type of barrier should be banned, so I would appreciate a response from NZTA as to why it has zero consideration for the safety of motorcyclists. Greg Ewen, Auckland.

The Transport Agency was happy to provide the following:

"The main purpose of wire rope safety barriers is to stop traffic leaving the road and colliding with solid objects such as other vehicles, trees and poles.

Studies show the fear that the steel ropes have a cheese-cutter effect is unfounded, and that wire rope barriers are more forgiving than traditional steel barriers with a 70-80 per cent reduction in road deaths.

A study of New Zealand motorcycle barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows that of the 20 motorcycle fatalities that followed a collision with a barrier, 13 were from W-beam and three from wire rope. (A W-beam is a semi-rigid steel guard rail with a cross-section in the shape of a rounded W.)

In this same period there were 97 deaths from collisions with posts, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from hitting unprotected trees.

Of the barrier collisions, wire rope safety barriers have around half the fatality rate of W-beam ones and concrete barriers are the most dangerous of all to motorcyclists.

Wire rope barriers 'catch' vehicles that leave the road. When a vehicle hits the wire rope barrier the cables flex, slowing the vehicle and pushing it back into its lane. The system absorbs impact energy, reducing the force on the passengers which means fewer and less severe injuries.

They are also designed so no part of them can penetrate the passenger compartment of cars."

This is a link to the piece in the NZ Herald (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/phoebe-falconer/news/article.cfm?a_id=127&objectid=11579420)

OddDuck

27th January 2016, 11:00

Fuck me. Studies show... who gives a shit what some fucking study shows. Go be a pillion on a bike, ride close to one of these, and see what you start thinking about them, safety guru.

What a bunch of condescending dickheads!!

Banditbandit

27th January 2016, 11:17

nzspokes

27th January 2016, 11:51

Wouldn't that be because wire barriers are a recent thing?

To be fair I wouldn't want to be sliding into either.

Akzle

27th January 2016, 11:54

i think all barriers should be removed.

...and replaced with landmines.

Tazz

27th January 2016, 12:16

Wouldn't that be because wire barriers are a recent thing?

To be fair I wouldn't want to be sliding into either.

yeah I'd say! How many meters are there of the older style vs the wires should be noted. Fucking typical half arsed govt stats.

There is a bit more too it though than just slicing and dicing though so I guess they have a bit of weight with that comment?

http://www.righttoride.eu/2013/09/30/ban-on-cable-barriers/

caspernz

27th January 2016, 12:20

Compared to some road side furniture, the WRBs vs oncoming vehicles crossing into my path...the WRBs will do fine thanks. A 4 inch high concrete kerb will cause all manner of damage to a sliding body, yet I don't see anyone getting all up in arms over kerbs...:brick:

FJRider

27th January 2016, 12:23

If you ride a bike you fall off - if you fall off you can hit things .. there are plenty of things alongside a road to hit ... why are you worried about just one of them? Do you want large run-off areas besudes all our roads like race tracks have?

Don't fall off ...

FFS .. get over your cotton wool selves ..

One thing that I often think of while riding ... is the extremely large number of places that ... if you ever left the road ... you would be dam lucky to survive. Let alone be found ... ever. ;)

But I guess nobody lives forever ... :yawn:

Big Dog

27th January 2016, 12:23

...In this same period there were 97 deaths from collisions with posts, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from hitting unprotected trees...

Wouldn't that be because wire barriers are a recent thing?

To be fair I wouldn't want to be sliding into either.
Statistically - Worldwide it is unlikely you will be harmed or maimed by a wire rope any more than you would be by another sort of barrier.
The supporting structures on the other hand are somewhat intolerant of flesh and often inopportune for a motorcyclist in placement.

Personally - rightly or wrongly I probably take more care around these vicious things that sacrifice the risk to the few over the benefit to the many and in wonder if this is the reason for the anomaly that leaves the stats the way they are.
Do you really think ACC or nzta care which is true?

Sent via tapatalk.

Doppleganger

27th January 2016, 14:14

So they ae safer aye.....
Wonder why we dont see them around the race tracks of this world

RDJ

27th January 2016, 14:50

Do you really think ACC or nzta care which is true? Sent via tapatalk.

I am thereby reminded of the classic quote allegedly by a US college athlete:

Coach: "Son, what is it with you, ignorance or apathy?"

Athlete: "Coach, I don't know and I don't care."

I believe this describes the senior (laughably named) management of NZTA and ACC precisely.

Hitcher

27th January 2016, 16:23

NZTA's response show what happens when facts meet emotion. Bikers need to learn from this, particularly if they want to become effective lobbyists.

swbarnett

27th January 2016, 16:34

If you ride a bike you fall off - if you fall off you can hit things .. there are plenty of things alongside a road to hit ... why are you worried about just one of them? Do you want large run-off areas besudes all our roads like race tracks have?

Don't fall off ...

FFS .. get over your cotton wool selves ..
My objection is not so much about the barriers themselves. It's the complete lack of consideration given to a legal sub-group of the motoring public. Replace "Motorcyclist" with "Maori" in this context and just watch the size of the outcry.

merv

27th January 2016, 16:52

AllanB

27th January 2016, 17:30

i think all barriers should be removed.

Talking roads here not sexual preferences .....

Big Dog

27th January 2016, 17:31

nodrog

27th January 2016, 18:33

So they ae safer aye.....
Wonder why we dont see them around the race tracks of this world

probably due to the lack of oncoming traffic or hard objects to hit, Einstein.

gjm

27th January 2016, 18:45

I see you haven't been to the Waikato lately then.

Aye. Massive lengths of SH1 north of Te Kauwhata, many areas south, and (iirc) much of the new Waikato Expressway.

Thios suggests new road builds will get wire barriers.

Nowt t'do wit budget, of course.

Ocean1

27th January 2016, 18:47

A study of New Zealand motorcycle barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows that of the 20 motorcycle fatalities that followed a collision with a barrier, 13 were from W-beam and three from wire rope. (A W-beam is a semi-rigid steel guard rail with a cross-section in the shape of a rounded W.)

Of the barrier collisions, wire rope safety barriers have around half the fatality rate of W-beam ones and concrete barriers are the most dangerous of all to motorcyclists.

All of which might be pertinent to a discussion about how dangerous wire rope barriers are, if any attempt had been made to address the exposure half of the risk equation. Namely, how many kilometers of each barrier has to be negotiated.

Wire rope barriers 'catch' vehicles that leave the road. When a vehicle hits the wire rope barrier the cables flex, slowing the vehicle and pushing it back into its lane. The system absorbs impact energy, reducing the force on the passengers which means fewer and less severe injuries.

They are also designed so no part of them can penetrate the passenger compartment of cars."

Aye, energy dissipation, a traffic engineer's wet dream. Except wire rope barriers aren't significantly better in that regard than a concrete median barrier, even if the recommended 7 meters between lanes is provided. And completely irrelevant in discussing bike risk.

And I can't believe nobody has mentioned the elephant in the room:

In this same period there were 97 deaths from collisions with posts, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from hitting unprotected trees.

Which not only begs the question "Why is there a dramatic growth in the installation of posts and signs?" But also: "What the fuck does the corespondent think holds all them wire ropes up, wishful thinking?"

Overall a poor effort at spinning numbers to fit a preconceived agenda.

Scuba_Steve

27th January 2016, 19:18

i think all barriers should be removed.

...and replaced with landmines.
While I see where you're going I can't say I like that idea; I use the extra space created by the cheese graters to overtake

So they ae safer aye.....
Wonder why we dont see them around the race tracks of this world
Same reason we don't use slicks for everyday travel... Just cause something works in 1 environment doesn't mean it works in another

swbarnett

27th January 2016, 20:45

Given that it is typical to be blaming cagers for hitting bikers and bikers on here are all good riders why would said bikers want to hit a cheesecutter anyway, but sure as hell they will help stop the cager from hitting the biker in a head on. Cheesecutters are normally fitted on fairly easy curves or straights and a bike has a lot of room in the lane so yeah just don't bother hitting the cheesecutter and you'll be fine.
Situation 1: Rangiriri straight, night, wet, following a sloooow car, one lane, no way to pass, watching a large truck in my mirror that doesn't look like it's slowing down in time.

Situation 2: (My wife this time) Tight blind corner, find a car overtaking directly in front of her, thankfully no left barrier, accident avoided by going bush on the grass verge.

ANYTHING that stops us getting ourselves out of a potential fatal situation is not to be tolerated.

Doppleganger

28th January 2016, 06:17

probably due to the lack of oncoming traffic or hard objects to hit, Einstein.

Try and read a little more of the reply given to the op dumb ass.
They claim an up to 80% improvement in the death rate. If thats the case shouldnt all the crcuits be changing to this 'rider friendly' style of crash barrier.

Scuba Steve

Same answer to you numb nuts because the claim it is sooo much safer, god you guys are hard work....

Come on cups cake keep up....

You guys are part of the problem if your happy to sit around buying into this spin.

Mike.Gayner

28th January 2016, 06:37

Wire rope barriers don't bother me that much. They're generally on easy bits of motorway where you're never going to hit them. Their primary purpose is keeping other vehicles out of oncoming traffic, and I'm all in favour of that in such circumstances. I've never seen an actual case of dismemberment from these things, and the research seems to indicate they are no less safe then any other barriers, unless someone has some data to the contrary.

FJRider

28th January 2016, 07:07

I've never seen an actual case of dismemberment from these things, and the research seems to indicate they are no less safe then any other barriers, unless someone has some data to the contrary.

In the statistics listed of the "No other vehicle involved" motorcycle accidents ... I have not seen mention of any case of a collision with a WRB.

If they were as dangerous as some claim ... a few should have hit one by now (with no outside help) ...

OddDuck

28th January 2016, 07:25

A quick search turned this up, from across the ditch:

http://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/216884/atsb201.pdf

There's a lot to go through. I've only had time for a glance, but two things stand out:

1) the authors understand that crash barriers designed for motorcyclists need to have smooth, continuous surfaces running parallel to the road, top mid and base with no exposed posts, and

2) there's very little data available for wire rope barriers and bikers.

The NZTA themselves say the same thing about the data.

I can see the pros and cons of the things. The wire rope barrier on the Kapiti coast means that I won't have to worry about cagers trying a dodgy overtake and going head-on with me - but take a look at the barrier posts pictured here:

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-engineering/road-safety-hardware/wire-rope-safety-barriers/

Slide into those at speed (if you've come off and you're at ground level) and you're guaranteed to get seriously messed up. Without them you might be going into oncoming traffic, true, but at least that has gaps / can dodge.

As BanditBandit said, get over it, ride, and don't come off. Yes. I accept that the wire rope barriers are here and they're not going away.

The bit that I have a problem with is authority shamelessly covering its own backside on this issue. It's the spin. If they just stopped playing games with the truth, I wouldn't get so angry about it.

Moi

28th January 2016, 10:34

A couple more that are available to read. Neither come out and say that wire barriers are deadly but they have the potential to be so, same as any other piece of road side furniture.

These are the two: Motorcycle Safety and Roadside Barriers (http://trafinz.org.nz/workspace/downloads/raphael-grzebieta-2-524dfcb668f97.pdf)

and Review-Motorcycle Crashes into Roadside Barriers: Stage 4:
Protecting motorcyclists in collisions with roadside barriers-University of New South Wales 2015 (https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/pdf/Motorcycle-Crashes-into-Roadside-Barriers-Intro.pdf)

If you read this - Safe System (https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-engineering/safety/safe-system/) from NZTA you will see how roadside barriers and centre barriers are all part of their wider vision for road safety.

Big Dog

28th January 2016, 11:54

In the statistics listed of the "No other vehicle involved" motorcycle accidents ... I have not seen mention of any case of a collision with a WRB.

If they were as dangerous as some claim ... a few should have hit one by now (with no outside help) ...
Then they have "selected out" 2007 and 2008.
Auckland single vehicle wire rope barrier dismembered fatally 2007.
Wellington fatal 2008. Details a bit sketchier because it didn't get as much publicity.
I'm not sure does partial decapitation count as dismemberment?

Oh wait. None of the 3 deaths count in the dismemberment stats because they weren't treated for that.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

28th January 2016, 12:05

It doesn't help that the coroner's reports on such things are always "closed". Doesn't stop some people publishing them.
Adding "coroner's report" to searches gives your result set a different point of view than a set of results based on hospital admissions.

Sent via tapatalk.

FJRider

28th January 2016, 12:41

Oh wait. None of the 3 deaths count in the dismemberment stats because they weren't treated for that.

This might put a different spin on the WRB arguments ...

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-engineering/road-safety-hardware/wire-rope-safety-barriers/

A study of NZ motorcycle-barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows of the 20 motorcycle fatalities following hitting a barrier, 13 were from W-beam and 3 from wire rope. It is worth noting that in this time period there were 97 fatalities from collision with posts or poles, 70 from hitting a traffic sign and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

Of the barrier collisions, the results show that wire rope safety barriers have around half the fatality rate of W-beam barriers and that concrete barriers are the most dangerous of all to motorcyclists.

Big Dog

28th January 2016, 13:15

I wouldn't argue that the number of deaths compared to other barriers was higher over the timescale.
Stats are stats.
I would be interested to know how many collisions with these resulted in low or no injury.
Of the high injury how many survived.

I do question why the stats deliberately omit groups of data that don't support the arguments of the supporters.
If it is not sugnificant that 3 people died in altercations with these barriers surely it is not significant that those same 3 people suffered some degree of dismemberment?

I think they have used some loaded terms. Half the rate implies half as many who struck the barrier died but the data set does not actually support that and suggests they mean 2x as many people who died were in contact with a w beam.

If the data is that 100 riders struck each and 2x as many survived that would support their argument. I suspect we don't see that ratio is because it doesn't support their position.

How come such specific detail can be provided around deaths but not around strikes?

Does anyone know of any rider striking these barriers at greater than running pace and not recieving a significant injury?

I can't find any mention of survivors.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

28th January 2016, 13:19

PS. I am not in favour or against the barriers. They have their pros and cons, I am annoyed that if tptb think these are the best fit that they obfuscate anything that doesn't agree with them.

There seems to be a real mentality of a decision was made lets justify it and bury or heads in the sand about new points of view.

Sent via tapatalk.

nodrog

30th January 2016, 08:27

Try and read a little more of the reply given to the op dumb ass.
They claim an up to 80% improvement in the death rate. If thats the case shouldnt all the crcuits be changing to this 'rider friendly' style of crash barrier.

Scuba Steve

Same answer to you numb nuts because the claim it is sooo much safer, god you guys are hard work....

Come on cups cake keep up....

You guys are part of the problem if your happy to sit around buying into this spin.

you thick cunt, circuits aren't primarily designed with crash barriers in high risk spots, they have things called runoff and gravel traps.

eldog

30th January 2016, 09:10

you thick cunt, circuits aren't primarily designed with crash barriers in high risk spots, they have things called runoff and gravel traps.

like Wanganui's Cemetry Circuit aye.

I doubt WRB's were designed for head on crashes.

I would like to see a WRB with a panel approx 400-600 high affixed to the wire rope, so us mere mortals on/off bikes can slide along it.

A combination of wire rope forgiveness and panel (something like the plastic you see on those roadside barriers) without parts to catch ourselves on.

Pretty hard to compare concrete barriers to wire rope ones - they always seem to be in different areas

sidecar bob

30th January 2016, 09:15

like Wanganui's Cemetry Circuit aye.

No, they have unprotected shipping containers at the end of the straights.

eldog

30th January 2016, 09:20

No, they have unprotected shipping containers at the end of the straights.

I was there, at least the shipping containers provided limited shade.<_<

I saw a couple of oooooooooh, yep I made it corners (once past those dip)

A couple of riders went way wider and found they didn't get the same grip as when they hugged the corner like all the others:Punk:

jellywrestler

30th January 2016, 09:38

No, they have unprotected shipping containers at the end of the straights.

i honestly think that if there was protection in front of that and you guys had used that option it may well have flung Srivy into the container straight on and he'd be lot more hurt than he was.....

sidecar bob

30th January 2016, 09:39

nodrog

30th January 2016, 09:41

like Wanganui's Cemetry Circuit aye.

.....

sorry, I forgot that that is a single use, purpose made circuit for racing.

eldog

30th January 2016, 09:45

i honestly think that if there was protection in front of that and you guys had used that option it may well have flung Srivy into the container straight on and he'd be lot more hurt than he was.....

would have to agree, cant just have knee jerk solutions, have to think through what could happen next, like what you have put forward could happen.

It sure was hold my breath a few times as a few riders seemed to balance on the edge of the curbs, exiting the corners. Must admit It was good to watch.

eldog

30th January 2016, 09:52

sorry, I forgot that that is a single use, purpose made circuit for racing.

and what would be the best circuit in the Nth Is in your opinion?

I want to see a race there. Only been to Pukekohe, Wanganui & Taupo

nodrog

30th January 2016, 09:54

and what would be the best circuit in the Nth Is in your opinion?

I want to see a race there. Only been to Pukekohe, Wanganui & Taupo

Wanganui Isn't a race track, its a public Road.

eldog

30th January 2016, 10:00

Wanganui Isn't a race track, its a public Road.

I did figure that out.... a race on a public road, has even more obstacles....

You didn't recommend a RACE TRACK where I could see a decent race.

didn't mean to derail thread....

prefer those WRB when they are placed a wee way off the road with grass run off in between in case of SNARFU

Moi

30th January 2016, 10:21

If you're interested these are reports from Europe:EuroRap – Barriers to Change: designing safe roads for motorcyclists (http://www.righttoride.co.uk/virtuallibrary/barriers/eurorapbarriers20081202_Bikers.pdf) - 2008

and FEMA – New Standards For Road Restraint Systems for Motorcyclists (http://www.righttoride.eu/virtuallibrary/barriers/femaGuidelinesbarriers2012.pdf) - 2012

I guess if the road is safer for motorcyclists then it is safer for other road users...

eldog

30th January 2016, 10:28

But riders with a brain would ride according to the possible danger they create in the same way as riding along roads with a high drop off if you loose it. Plastic waterfilled barriers would definitly be safer though but I guess are more expensive.

Accidents are not necessarily caused by dumb riders or other road users. To me ROAD DESIGN incorporating what the road surface and drainage are all equally important causes of accidents.
Even sun strike(whiteout) can cause accidents.

I wasn't referring to using plastic water filled barriers, just using similar material to make a skin attached to the WRB, that would lessen damage to some poor unfortunate.

Thanks for the info MOI

nodrog

30th January 2016, 10:48

You didn't recommend a RACE TRACK where I could see a decent race.

sorry, I forgot my last name was google.

try Bruno or sepang.

eldog

30th January 2016, 11:26

sorry, I forgot my last name was google.

try Bruno or sepang.

I wasn't trying to be smart, I asked about Nth Is so I could ride there and see what you meant about run off etc versus hard barriers and it would give me an excuse to ride :Punk:

No Worries - I will choose Manfield and have a look for myself and compare against Taupo (its been too long since I was on Puke).

Keen on what people say about barriers so the race track is a perfect place to see them in action

pritch

30th January 2016, 11:46

try Bruno or sepang.

Who is this Bruno of whom you speak? :whistle:

eldog

30th January 2016, 11:57

The trade off being we will be paying even higher registration or fuel tax with any safety improvements

do you mean we 'the motorcyclist' or we the taxpayers

I have often wondered how much a death costs versus a person who is unable to return to society due to accident
how much is safety worth? and are we prepared to pay for it?

surely if 'safety' for motorcyclist benefits other road users then we should all pay.
the reduction in deaths and harm would offset the cost of the safety improvements
maybe I should look in the ACC thread

Moi

30th January 2016, 11:58

Who is this Bruno of whom you speak? :whistle:

The Piedmontese cousin of the Czech branch of the family??

eldog

30th January 2016, 11:59

Who is this Bruno of whom you speak? :whistle:

Yeah I couldn't find that track either :wings:

Big Dog

30th January 2016, 12:04

Brno perhaps.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

30th January 2016, 12:05

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjFpfm_ntDKAhWjOKYKHTcKDOwQFghBMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.racingcircuits.info%2Feurope% 2Fczech-republic%2Fbrno.html&usg=AFQjCNH1pHrKkgxqlSafSlbJmtNnExi3cQ&bvm=bv.113034660,d.dGY

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

30th January 2016, 12:40

I think we motorists as opposed to taxpayers in general are the ones lumped with paying for roading improvements which is only fair as not everyone drives or rides. As an example I think petrol tax went up some years back to pay for improved Auckland roads.

I doubt just Akl roads, there have been improvements all over, according to the NZTA media propaganda

Akl didn't need just improvements to existing roads it needed to implement roads which have long been on the back burner....

Some parts of Akl are still a major pain to get around - they were never design to have such heavy traffic use.

Akl is a special case, it appears that no one really planned to have a major public transport system like some Aussie/Euro cities because no one wanted to pay for it.

and we have some WRB to boot.

Glad to see you included car users in your definition of who would pay rather than just motorcyclists :yes:

Grumph

30th January 2016, 13:08

I wasn't trying to be smart, I asked about Nth Is so I could ride there and see what you meant about run off etc versus hard barriers and it would give me an excuse to ride :Punk:

No Worries - I will choose Manfield and have a look for myself and compare against Taupo (its been too long since I was on Puke).

Keen on what people say about barriers so the race track is a perfect place to see them in action

The trouble with this idea is that too many tracks are now catering for the worst case scenario - trucks and V8's...Compared to only a few years back, barriers have moved closer to the edge of the tracks - and got bigger/heavier. I'd never consider manfield's front straight safe for bikes either. No where to get out of the way as several fatalities have shown.

On the other hand heard something on the radio today to the effect that NZTA are going to put up something to pad the posts on the cheesecutter barriers...Amazing.

eldog

30th January 2016, 13:17

The trouble with this idea is that too many tracks are now catering for the worst case scenario - trucks and V8's...Compared to only a few years back, barriers have moved closer to the edge of the tracks - and got bigger/heavier. I'd never consider manfield's front straight safe for bikes either. No where to get out of the way as several fatalities have shown.

On the other hand heard something on the radio today to the effect that NZTA are going to put up something to pad the posts on the cheesecutter barriers...Amazing.

I understand this, catering for such a huge range of different vehicles would be difficult, almost want to be able to move barriers etc for each race type. POP UP/FOLD DOWN depending on race type

I only suggested Manfield because I have never been there. Fatalities indicate that something needs to be done.

I went to a Taupo meeting a few years back, motorbikes, trucks, cars, drifting one after the other.
It was OK, the trucks were a disappointment. I could see the track while it suited the mbikes and smaller cars didn't really suit the larger vehicles.

Interesting you heard about padding wire barriers posts - then there must be something in it.
They wouldn't be doing anything if they didn't NEED to.
my suggestion about spanning between each post with a thinish panel - so people wouldn't be caught/mangled not such a bad idea.
I would think a panel would stop entanglement better than a pad

Moi

30th January 2016, 15:15

... Interesting you heard about padding wire barriers posts - then there must be something in it.
They wouldn't be doing anything if they didn't NEED to. My suggestion about spanning between each post with a thin-ish panel - so people wouldn't be caught/mangled not such a bad idea.
I would think a panel would stop entanglement better than a pad

Have a read of FEMA's report: FEMA - New Standards For Road Restraint Systems for Motorcyclists - 2012

pritch

31st January 2016, 07:34

I doubt just Akl roads,

There was an extra tax (10c per litre?) added to the price of gas soley for Auckland roading. People in Auckland may have forgotten, or may not have been paying attention, but everybody else took note. The introduction of an extra tax just for Auckland's benefit was just as popular as you would expect.:sick:

pritch

31st January 2016, 07:43

my suggestion about spanning between each post with a thinish panel - so people wouldn't be caught/mangled not such a bad idea.
I would think a panel would stop entanglement better than a pad

Nah. Some countries use padding on the posts. These must be countries who are concerned for the welfare of their citizens, unlike NZ. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the existing best practice.

eldog

31st January 2016, 08:49

Nah. Some countries use padding on the posts. These must be countries who are concerned for the welfare of their citizens, unlike NZ. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, we just need to adopt the existing best practice.

I didn't think of the petrol tax at the time. I thought petrol used to be the same price all across the country and then it changed to reflect actual cost of transport etc (I thought this was good at first but on reflection prefer one cost across NZ) Maybe I am wrong I haven't really looked into it.

I was just thinking that a lot of 'current transport solutions' have been on the books for ages. Like Transmission gully in Welly. In AKL you will see the Western mway being raised - a good example of how things are done here - cheap as original (to get job done) then 10 years later do major 'improvements'. Wait for a few years and see what the plans are for the Victoria flyover.

Would agree, we need to at least adopt best practise.:niceone:

but we are Kiwis - an inventive lot - why can't WE be world leaders..... Instead of just sheep following someone else. For transport it seems Victoria Australia.

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 11:16

There was an extra tax (10c per litre?) added to the price of gas soley for Auckland roading. People in Auckland may have forgotten, or may not have been paying attention, but everybody else took note. The introduction of an extra tax just for Auckland's benefit was just as popular as you would expect.:sick:
I'd love to see the Auckland turned into it's own economic entity i.e. ALL tax from Auckland stays in Auckland. Then we'd know for sure who support who.

And just for the record, I may still work in Auckland but I don't reside within it's boundaries.

eldog

31st January 2016, 12:56

I'd love to see the Auckland turned into it's own economic entity i.e. ALL tax from Auckland stays in Auckland. Then we'd know for sure who support who.

And just for the record, I may still work in Auckland but I don't reside within the it's boundaries.

It would be an interesting exercise.
Further would be dividing it into smaller units like North, South, West and East
we could have a tax on the road/rail/planes or anything that moved through the region on entry and exit
lucky bugger living outside AKL :yes::rockon:

MarkH

31st January 2016, 13:18

I wouldn't say that I like WRBs, but they probably save motorcyclists lives more often than they take lives, better to NOT have a car cross the centre of the road when you are riding the other way.

It is rare to read about a motorcyclist killed by hitting a WRB, not nearly as rare as it should be to read about a motorcyclist dying after hitting something else like the one in Wellington that hit a traffic light pole.
So why does everyone get so worried about the WRBs but not seem to have a problem with trees, power poles, fence posts, etc.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 13:23

eldog

31st January 2016, 13:28

Better to NOT have a car cross the centre of the road when you are riding the other way.

So why does everyone get so worried about the WRBs but not seem to have a problem with trees, power poles, fence posts, etc.

Far, far too much of a vehicle crossing the centre line and colliding with oncoming vehicle, recently.

Its this that causes barriers to be raised. Cheapest one is WRB.
What I am proposing is to make the WRB safer for motorbike riders, not just for cars and trucks etc.

Yes trees, power poles, fence posts are hazards too, something else to consider.
Have a read of the European link regarding barriers - MOI posted earlier.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 13:29

eldog

31st January 2016, 13:34

How would that be taxed? I too earn in as akl.
I too live in the Waikato.
About half of my income gets spent outside akl.
Nearly a third goes to a wellington based mortgage via an akl based branch.
I could see taxing business based on geography. Individuals are a lot more complicated.

Sent via tapatalk.

Via toll tax on a person. Each time they pass a toll bridge - one for each area.
It isn't something that will happen.
It is just an exercise to see how AKL affects NZ's economy -
Does the rest of NZ really need AKL? Probably not
Does AKL need the rest of NZ? YES

we could always put a WRB around the AKL boundary and tax those who cross it and freight as well.

NZders cherish their ability to move about freely.

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 13:45

How would that be taxed? I too earn in as akl.
I too live in the Waikato.
About half of my income gets spent outside akl.
Nearly a third goes to a wellington based mortgage via an akl based branch.
I could see taxing business based on geography. Individuals are a lot more complicated.
In Switzerland you are taxed where you live and the money goes to your local council (only a nominal piece goes to central Government). We could have a similar system but the tax go to the council you work in (as in France, I am led to believe).

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 13:48

It is rare to read about a motorcyclist killed by hitting a WRB, not nearly as rare as it should be to read about a motorcyclist dying after hitting something else like the one in Wellington that hit a traffic light pole.
So why does everyone get so worried about the WRBs but not seem to have a problem with trees, power poles, fence posts, etc.
Wait until the same length of road is covered by WRBs as is covered by poles, trees etc. Then the rate will go up. At least with poles and trees here is a chance that you will go between them. Not possible with a continuous barrier.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 13:49

Via toll tax on a person. Each time they pass a toll bridge - one for each area.
It isn't something that will happen.
It is just an exercise to see how AKL affects NZ's economy -
Does the rest of NZ really need AKL? Probably not
Does AKL need the rest of NZ? YES

we could always put a WRB around the AKL boundary and tax those who cross it and freight as well.

NZders cherish their ability to move about freely.
Yet you want to tax something exclusively because you say it is something we all hold dearly?

The irony is I live in the Waikato because I couldn't afford to live in akl.
I work in akl because that is where the work i do is.
In all reality I could work better from home with less costs for everyone.

That last bit is true for about 1/3 of office jobs. Yet we still clog the arteries of the concrete jungles because bosses who don't understand what we do like to see a person for the money they pay.

Sent via tapatalk.

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 13:51

Does the rest of NZ really need AKL? Probably not
Does AKL need the rest of NZ? YES
Last I heard a couple of decades ago 80% of NZs income tax came from Auckland*. Without this I shudder to think what the roads would be like in Southland.

*May not be true anymore, of course.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:06

Yet you want to tax something exclusively because you say it is something we all hold dearly?

The irony is I live in the Waikato because I couldn't afford to live in akl.
I work in akl because that is where the work i do is.
In all reality I could work better from home with less costs for everyone.

I was putting out ideas about how we would decide if AKL needs the rest of NZ.

I am able to live in AKL where I do because I have sacrificed other things in order for that to happen. I am very fortunate in both the job I have and the home I live in. In doing a couple of 1000k trips last year made me well aware of my fortune.

My sister is doing the same for her kids - her hubby was made redundant at Xmas and is still trying to get a job, things will get tough this year for sure.

If you worked from home, you would miss the riding.
I have worked from home, it can get you down but occasionally it has it moments too.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:14

In Switzerland you are taxed where you live and the money goes to your local council (only a nominal piece goes to central Government). We could have a similar system but the tax go to the council you work in (as in France, I am led to believe).

Interesting that overseas countries use this.
wonder how the locals feel about that

do they have the same geographical problems like AKL.
ie the majority of the population living in one area while the rest is mainly rural?

and do they use WRB?

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:20

MarkH

31st January 2016, 14:22

It is just an exercise to see how AKL affects NZ's economy -
Does the rest of NZ really need AKL? Probably not
Does AKL need the rest of NZ? YES

"Does the rest of NZ really need AKL?"

What kind of idiotic question is this?
AKL is about 1/4 of our population, AKL is the economic & business capital of NZ, of course the rest of us need them!

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:34

"Does the rest of NZ really need AKL?"

What kind of idiotic question is this?
AKL is about 1/4 of our population, AKL is the economic & business capital of NZ, of course the rest of us need them!
Not really. We need the businesses that reside there.
But the gdp would be a lot higher for the rest of nz than for akl.
Akl uses more than it produces most years.

Sent via tapatalk.

bogan

31st January 2016, 14:36

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:40

If you worked from home, you would miss the riding.
I have worked from home, it can get you down but occasionally it has it moments too.

Not really. Riding up and down the southern becomes a bit of a drag when you have to.
The biggest thing I miss about living in provincial nz was being able to walk to work or at least cycle.
But then you come to why I moved to Auckland in the first place. All of that is a moot point without a job to go to.

if I were to change job now it would be to a job I can get to without a motor and or that I worked from home 1/2 the week.

Such is the privilege of already having a good job.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:41

"Does the rest of NZ really need AKL?"

What kind of idiotic question is this?
AKL is about 1/4 of our population, AKL is the economic & business capital of NZ, of course the rest of us need them!

Really, do you need AKL?

Almost all rural exports come from outside Akl
Almost all power comes from outside Akl
It would be just as easy to get TV from any local station
Petrol comes from Northland essentially but is imported in other centres
Forestry and logging is outside Akl
Education is carried out outside of AKL and I would argue it is of a higher and more hands on type of education that AKL needs.

Not a lot of value added items done in AKL from items that could be shipped from other ports.

It's only the number of people-housing & jobs etc that keeps AKL alive.

I could do my job outside of AKL but the amount of work opportunities for me are very small.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:44

Sure they give themselves fancy titles, but does Auckland do anything the rest of NZ doesn't?
Turn the countries wealth into consumables.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:46

A job I can get to without a motor and or that I worked from home 1/2 the week.

Such is the privilege of already having a good job.

I find I need the break from work, travelling no matter what the mode enables me to relax before I get home and try and put a mental barrier with the issues I have there.

Its good to have that break between work and home. Occasionally they overlap sometimes good sometimes bad. A good job no matter how stressful - will have it moments when you want to chuck it away then others I realised how lucky I am.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:46

Really, do you need AKL?

Almost all rural exports come from outside Akl
Almost all power comes from outside Akl
It would be just as easy to get TV from any local station
Petrol comes from Northland essentially but is imported in other centres
Forestry and logging is outside Akl
Education is carried out outside of AKL and I would argue it is of a higher and more hands on type of education that AKL needs.

Not a lot of value added items done in AKL from items that could be shipped from other ports.

It's only the number of people-housing & jobs etc that keeps AKL alive.

I could do my job outside of AKL but the amount of work opportunities for me are very small.
Ironically your job would cost your employer less almost anywhere else if they were not already capitalised here.

Sent via tapatalk.

bogan

31st January 2016, 14:46

Turn the countries wealth into consumables.

Sent via tapatalk.

Rest of NZ does that too mate.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:48

Rest of NZ does that too mate.
Aye, but nowhere near the same efficiency...

Sent via tapatalk.

bogan

31st January 2016, 14:49

Aye, but nowhere near the same efficiency...

Sent via tapatalk.

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:49

Ironically your job would cost your employer less almost anywhere else if they were not already capitalised here.

Absolutely true.
Its the transport cost that kills it.

having said that more and more of what I do is coming from China-less than the price we can buy materials for. We are becoming more of a service industry.:(

The people who are my customers only think about making their job easier not about how to improve it which might actually involve them in WORKING. So often I have suggested improvements and just got the FO answer.
Funny now some of those ideas are being talked about as If they were new ideas and those who said FO didn't know anything about them........

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:55

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that.

That would be interesting to compare.

For me to compete, we have to go more automated and work smarter.
Its the fixed costs such as insurance, labour, rates etc that sets us off against the rural sector, where costs are lower but the amount of work is less (transport and power costs higher)

pity this discussion is in the WRB thread

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 14:56

I find I need the break from work, travelling no matter what the mode enables me to relax before I get home and try and put a mental barrier with the issues I have there.

Its good to have that break between work and home. Occasionally they overlap sometimes good sometimes bad. A good job no matter how stressful - will have it moments when you want to chuck it away then others I realised how lucky I am.
Exactly why my ideal would be either a 20 minute cycle or walk or to work from home half the week.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

31st January 2016, 14:59

Exactly why my ideal would be either a 20 minute cycle or walk or to work from home half the week.

Ten minutes seems to suit me, five was just a bit short (almost had to carry a shotgun both ways), living at work was interesting(surrounded by gang members and police-LOL)

Currently contemplating moving or fixing the place up. All good.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 15:08

I'm going to have to call bullshit on that.
Higher average incomes don't translate to higher disposable income.
It does seem to translate to more toys and more bribes for the kids.

Sent via tapatalk.

MarkH

31st January 2016, 15:32

We need the businesses that reside there.

So that is a yes, we do need them?

eldog

31st January 2016, 15:39

Higher average incomes don't translate to higher disposable income.
It does seem to translate to more toys and more bribes for the kids.

I would agree that the majority of people working in AKL get paid more than the rest of the country.

It doesn't translate to higher disposable incomes, as there are higher living costs etc (distance to work and school costs etc)

More toys if you can afford them (I have to save) yeah the kids demand more.

its not like when I was growing a tennis ball, and a foot ball would do.
a bike was magic. I don't buy crap unless it's a once only item. So I buy the kiddies useful gifts if and when I think they deserve it.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 15:48

So that is a yes, we do need them?
In this modern age they would be just as successful elsewhere.

A bit like my trumpet case only has value because it houses my trumpet.
But my trumpet would hold the same value in another case.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 15:56

eldog

31st January 2016, 16:46

The whole point of cities is to improve communication and reduce transport costs.
Modern era neither is a real concern.
Shipping goods 10,000kms another 150 is neither here nor there.
Phoning and emailing your neighbour is now no more cost effective than someone from say matamata.

One of the larger employers in Matamata is moving to India (so I have been told)

One of my competitors is in the UK, that 10,000 ks is a long way when you are competing on $ and delivery time to the UK.

Modern communication has improved dramatically the speed of events, but has also reduced the ability for people to be loyal. People are far less loyal, they will buy crap and then complain to a local manufacturer about quality when it arrives.

NZTA is hiding its head in the sand regarding WRB and mbike accidents.
It is also using statistics to hide other stuff like road surface conditions when it suits.
Do they still disregard those who have been in accidents on holidays weekends and die AFTER the cut off time?

eldog

31st January 2016, 16:49

In this modern age they would be just as successful elsewhere.

A bit like my trumpet case only has value because it houses my trumpet.
But my trumpet would hold the same value in another case.

do you mean - we need the businesses in AKL, but they don't necessarily need to be located in AKL.

Will admit more rural people are able to apply themselves better to any problems.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 16:55

do you mean - we need the businesses in AKL, but they don't necessarily need to be located in AKL.

Will admit more rural people are able to apply themselves better to any problems.
Bingo

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 17:05

One of the larger employers in Matamata is moving to India (so I have been told)

One of my competitors is in the UK, that 10,000 ks is a long way when you are competing on $ and delivery time to the UK.

Modern communication has improved dramatically the speed of events, but has also reduced the ability for people to be loyal. People are far less loyal, they will buy crap and then complain to a local manufacturer about quality when it arrives.

NZTA is hiding its head in the sand regarding WRB and mbike accidents.
It is also using statistics to hide other stuff like road surface conditions when it suits.
Do they still disregard those who have been in accidents on holidays weekends and die AFTER the cut off time?
Nzta know the wrbs represent an increased risk to motorcycles but argued that the reduced speed and increased care exhibited in their presence effectively negated this risk when I asked them if they agreed motorcyclists were marginalised in favour of other motorists.

They also went on to further justify by stating that the reduced number of head ons is directly proportional to the amount of wrbs.

They also stated a barriers primary measure of effectiveness is in the injury or less of life to collateral parties and the art fault party is secondary. Hence the prevalence of wrb. Not cost.

They know.
The try to make the numbers stack up enough to keep us quiet. They evade official comment. But they know and have no intention of changing.

Think less ostrich and more dog with a bone.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

31st January 2016, 17:12

Nzta know the wrbs represent an increased risk to motorcycles but argued that the reduced speed and increased care exhibited in their presence effectively negated this risk when I asked them if they agreed motorcyclists were marginalised in favour of other motorists.

They know.
The try to make the numbers stack up enough to keep us quiet. They evade official comment. But they know and have no intention of changing.

Think less ostrich and more dog with a bone.

So the cost of death/injury to motorcyclist is irrelevant. Surely the cost to ACC would be reduced if we made them even add a lower rail to the existing system - do we all pay Regos.

I know they have no intent - just wait till one of their loved ones becomes a cropper and the public outcry....

Seemed to remember a number of head ons on the southern motorway resulted in the WRB being installed Manurewa-Bombay a few years back.

Come on it's not that expensive to add and the cost/benefit ratio would be great

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 17:15

The answer I got was that they would not be addressing that issue until all the planned works were done and then would address concerns where statistics supported a change.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

31st January 2016, 17:19

The answer I got was that they would not be addressing that issue until all the planned works were done and then would address concerns where statistics supported a change.

Write your own rules aye. Hide it under the carpet. They have been dodging the bullet, in case someone says hey lots of crashes here, it's gotta be speed, it's gotta be alcohol, it's gotta be drivers, never the road is crap design/surface or how can we make it safer for all users. We just do the minimum to suit our budget. Bend the statistics when we want to.

We need to get more information and bend it our way.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 17:24

So the cost of death/injury to motorcyclist is irrelevant. Surely the cost to ACC would be reduced if we made them even add a lower rail to the existing system - do we all pay Regos.

I know they have no intent - just wait till one of their loved ones becomes a cropper and the public outcry....

Seemed to remember a number of head ons on the southern motorway resulted in the WRB being installed Manurewa-Bombay a few years back.

Come on it's not that expensive to add and the cost/benefit ratio would be great
PS the evidence of a 2 wheel track vehicle hitting the wire ropes in a significant way is present somewhere along the system almost every day. Takes an average of three weeks from new hole to repaired based on my travels not actual maths.
By my estimate those wrbs on that stretch alone keep the someone from opposing traffic at least once a month.
Also only my observation but I am surprised it is not more given how often people appear to be dozing along there.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 17:33

This is why I don't support either side.
They do a remarkable for 98 percent of the population. I just wish they were more transparent about their knowledge of the risk to the other 2 percent who own a motorcycle.
Be honest and say they have no record of injuries because no one has survived. I hope I am wrong on that front but I have never heard of anyone in nz surviving.
I have heard of survivors in Europe. But they were ones that did not actually fall off only struck a glancing blow.

Walking beside one I tore a boot open on one of the posts... I am pretty sure you could use those "soft posts" as a machete.

Sent via tapatalk.

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 22:48

Interesting that overseas countries use this.
wonder how the locals feel about that
It's just the way it works. And it seems to work well. The Swiss have a lot more say in how the council is run as well (they even get to vote on whether or not to approve the annual budget).

do they have the same geographical problems like AKL.
ie the majority of the population living in one area while the rest is mainly rural?
Switzerland is certainly more evenly spread than NZ but they do have the large population centers (around Zurich, Basel and Gevena). There are poor and rich councils. Where I lived was one of the "poorer" ones and they greatly appreciated my tax (it was above average for that region).

and do they use WRB?
I was there 20 years ago and they didn't have any then, don't know what it's like now. The Swiss know how to drive (and the public transport is so good that those that don't want to don't have to) so I would imagine the need is less than it is perceived to be here (they don't signpost tight bends like they do here, they just expect you to be able to judge the corner).

swbarnett

31st January 2016, 23:02

By my estimate those wrbs on that stretch alone keep the someone from opposing traffic at least once a month.
Crossing the center line, yes but what's to say that there was opposing traffic at the time?

Big Dog

31st January 2016, 23:36

Nought.

Sent via tapatalk.

Moise

1st February 2016, 08:11

eldog

1st February 2016, 08:24

Slightly off the original topic, but has anyone noticed the very nasty barriers that have gone up on the causeway section of the NW motorway in Auckland?

They have a thin W section with thin, steel poles supporting this. You'd have no chance if you hit it on a bike.

This is exactly what NZTA plan, you to recognise the hazard, slow down and take more care.
What happens when something else goes wrong and you get pushed into the barrier. The results are what this thread is about.

the lack of a concerned response about public safety. It's all about money.......

good on you for noticing another hazard:headbang:

flashg

1st February 2016, 13:31

Moise

1st February 2016, 15:02

Not if you have Ape hangers!

Mike.Gayner

1st February 2016, 15:06

In parts of the country we get bloody strong winds and also wind gusts. If even for the briefest moment you came close to the centre line, (because of wind) you're fucked because your bars will touch the wire, then it's all over. Hard to be sure what the weather is going to be like all the time. Nice when you leave home and turns to shit before you return.
I remember it being on the news about bikers getting blown off the road returning from the Burt Munroe rally down south. Those WRB's would have chopped up some I'm sure (if present on those roads)

If you're really being blown around that much, you should be thankful the wire is there to stop you being blown into an oncoming truck. Personally I've never been blown around that much by wind, so I get the feeling you're just making shit up.

Moi

1st February 2016, 15:16

... Personally I've never been blown around that much by wind, so I get the feeling you're just making shit up.

Try the Rimutakas when there's a strong southerly blowing... wind hit the bluff above the road, blew down the bluff and across the road... 300+kg of bike and rider and gear was moved sideways, going slowly as was on the hairpin bend at the summit... enough to blow cars about... road was closed soon after...

really glad the centre of the road was marked with only yellow paint...

However, can see value of barriers - just means we need to ride / drive to the conditions...

Big Dog

1st February 2016, 15:49

eldog

1st February 2016, 16:25

Try the Rimutakas when there's a strong southerly blowing... wind hit the bluff above the road, blew down the bluff and across the road... 300+kg of bike and rider and gear was moved sideways, going slowly as was on the hairpin bend at the summit... enough to blow cars about... road was closed soon after...

However, can see value of barriers - just means we need to ride / drive to the conditions.

Them Rimutakas can be exciting when travelling Welly to the Wairarapa in windy conditions

your story reminded me about my first wind storm encounter - blustery conditions picked me and the bike up and moved us 1 whole lane over at 100 kph that was interesting. I had been dealing with high winds and wasn't too worried, it was a sudden wind gust that just picked up the bike and dumped it in less time than I could blink.

I learnt to ride to the conditions that day and look out for places wind gusts could occur.

russd7

1st February 2016, 17:20

I remember it being on the news about bikers getting blown off the road returning from the Burt Munroe rally down south. Those WRB's would have chopped up some I'm sure (if present on those roads)

might find that was the brass three yr ago i think, and the cops did a fine job of feeding us bacon butties and eventually closed the road to all traffic once the wind died down and escorted us through so we could utilize the whole road,
at the end of the day if you haven't got the skills to stay in your own lane and anticipate what other traffic is likely to do then get off the fucken road and wait for the wind to die down.
and yes i have ridden and do still ride in strong winds from time to time.

Big Dog

1st February 2016, 18:24

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/media-releases/new-motorcycle-friendly-safety-rails-a-game-changer/

Sent via tapatalk.

flashg

1st February 2016, 18:32

might find that was the brass three yr ago i think, and the cops did a fine job of feeding us bacon butties and eventually closed the road to all traffic once the wind died down and escorted us through so we could utilize the whole road,

at the end of the day if you haven't got the skills to stay in your own lane and anticipate what other traffic is likely to do then get off the fucken road and wait for the wind to die down.

and yes i have ridden and do still ride in strong winds from time to time.

Cheers russd7, I knew it was something like that. Mike Gayner will be along shortly to tell you you're that shit up., true.

Moi

1st February 2016, 19:12

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/media-releases/new-motorcycle-friendly-safety-rails-a-game-changer/

Sent via tapatalk.

A positive start...

Ocean1

1st February 2016, 20:04

A positive start...

It is.

So let's, for now ignore the fact that it's a minuscule part of barriers nationwide and that it's taken a decade longer than the rest of the world, (during which time every official response to the issue has been "there's no problem") and focus on the good news.

Thanks to whichever of the various official entities share responsibility for the project.

eldog

1st February 2016, 20:11

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/media-releases/new-motorcycle-friendly-safety-rails-a-game-changer/

And strangely we have a media release about WRB?

didnt need them before...... Have we become less skilled?

I would think the cost of deaths would influence it if pressed enough.

eldog

1st February 2016, 20:13

A positive start...

Wait till it's installed then decide. If it's like a lot of things it will be lip service, to be finished in the next ten year budget

eldog

1st February 2016, 20:16

It is.

So let's, for now ignore the fact that it's a minuscule part of barriers nationwide and that it's taken a decade longer than the rest of the world, (during which time every official response to the issue has been "there's no problem") and focus on the good news.

Thanks to whichever of the various official entities share responsibility for the project.

Maybe it's due to the fact motorbikes are no longer hidden in the ACC rego cost and ACC has woken up and has started to pressurise the NZTA and councils about road conditions and design.

like you said it's a start - at last.... May it proceed and be implemented as we think it should.

swbarnett

1st February 2016, 20:34

If you're really being blown around that much, you should be thankful the wire is there to stop you being blown into an oncoming truck.
I'd rather hit the truck than the barrier. Besides, there may not be any traffic. The barrier is always there.

Personally I've never been blown around that much by wind, so I get the feeling you're just making shit up.
Depends on the bike to a large extent. Was blown across two lanes of the AK motorway on the CBX. Not so much of a problem on my current bike.

Ocean1

1st February 2016, 20:42

Maybe it's due to the fact motorbikes are no longer hidden in the ACC rego cost and ACC has woken up and has started to pressurise the NZTA and councils about road conditions and design.

like you said it's a start - at last.... May it proceed and be implemented as we think it should.

Aye. But in the meantime they're still installing WRB and Armco with the posts fully exposed.

And planting more and more posts with no regard to this:

In this same period there were 97 deaths from collisions with posts, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from hitting unprotected trees.

So again:

Which begs the question "Why is there a dramatic growth in the installation of posts and signs?"

Particularly those around the outside of curvs, (usually telling us there's a curve there) which, (given their own stat's above) rather than plain ignorance almost has to be something a bit more sinister, dunnit?

Or can it really be explained by incompetence, inter-departmental in-fighting and willful ignorance?

Moi

1st February 2016, 20:57

... Particularly those around the outside of curves, (usually telling us there's a curve there) which, (given their own stats above) rather than plain ignorance almost has to be something a bit more sinister, dunnit?

Or can it really be explained by incompetence, inter-departmental in-fighting and willful ignorance?

I do wonder if they are just not prepared to read and accept the evidence of best practice from Europe?

If someone from NZTA is reading this, and I hope they are sensible enough to keep an eye on what is being said here along with other interested parties, then they should be aware that European reports are easily accessible to anyone and they need to be discussing what they are doing in an intelligent manner... hoodwinking doesn't work.

nzspokes

1st February 2016, 20:57

If you're really being blown around that much, you should be thankful the wire is there to stop you being blown into an oncoming truck. Personally I've never been blown around that much by wind, so I get the feeling you're just making shit up.

Try the Mangere bridge on a rough day, I try to hide beside a car or truck to break the blast. Ive been moved quite a way.

Big Dog

2nd February 2016, 00:05

It is.

So let's, for now ignore the fact that it's a minuscule part of barriers nationwide and that it's taken a decade longer than the rest of the world, (during which time every official response to the issue has been "there's no problem") and focus on the good news.

Thanks to whichever of the various official entities share responsibility for the project.
Like all things nzta it will be try it somewhere. Extend it where justified. There is talk in the article about coro loop getting it first due to the disproportionate death toll there.

Sent via tapatalk.

Doppleganger

2nd February 2016, 08:06

you thick cunt, circuits aren't primarily designed with crash barriers in high risk spots, they have things called runoff and gravel traps.

FFS catch up ya dopy prick....

And where there isnt run off and gravel traps derrrr...

Jeesus how do you manage each day :finger:

nodrog

2nd February 2016, 08:34

FFS catch up ya dopy prick....

And where there isnt run off and gravel traps derrrr...

Jeesus how do you manage each day :finger:

You are a fuckin retard.

Doppleganger

2nd February 2016, 09:44

You are a fuckin retard.

A stunning comeback.

nodrog

2nd February 2016, 11:45

A stunning comeback.

I think it's all you are qualified to understand.

TheDemonLord

2nd February 2016, 12:07

just something about Regional contributions to NZ Economy:

http://transportblog.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/City-share-of-NZ-GDP-table-v1.jpg

it is certainly interesting that Auckland produces the highest percentage of GDP, I couldn't find anything about 80% of income tax is paid from AKL, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially since most of NZs wealthiest citizens are in AKL.

Doppleganger

2nd February 2016, 12:36

I think it's all you are qualified to understand.

Here you go dumb cunt try reading this http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/76482445/safety-initiatives-to-keep-motorcyclists-safe-on-coromandel-loop

nodrog

2nd February 2016, 14:07

Here you go dumb cunt try reading this http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/76482445/safety-initiatives-to-keep-motorcyclists-safe-on-coromandel-loop

Why? Does it say something about track design?

Moi

2nd February 2016, 14:21

Slightly off the original topic, but has anyone noticed the very nasty barriers that have gone up on the causeway section of the NW motorway in Auckland?

They have a thin W section with thin, steel poles supporting this. You'd have no chance if you hit it on a bike.

Saw them today... both west bound and east bound... is it possible that some of them are temporary?

However, considering the state of the road surface if you go fast enough you'd bounce right over the barriers... :shit:

Moise

2nd February 2016, 14:28

That was my first thought, as the beam looks too high even for cars.

Maybe they will look better once the work is finished, but I'm keeping out of the left lane in the meantime.

Doppleganger

2nd February 2016, 14:34

Why? Does it say something about track design?

It says they have installed a proven barrier that prevents serious injury to motorcyclists but strangely it isn't one of those wire barriers you sem to think are ok.
The same type of barrier they have around circuits funnily enough (if they dont have the concreat block type).

Go figure einstein

sidecar bob

2nd February 2016, 17:54

just something about Regional contributions to NZ Economy:

it is certainly interesting that Auckland produces the highest percentage of GDP, I couldn't find anything about 80% of income tax is paid from AKL, but it wouldn't surprise me, especially since most of NZs wealthiest citizens are in AKL.

Did you miss the word "estimated" which is code for "this is based on fuck all research, just what I think might probably be the case"

swbarnett

2nd February 2016, 17:58

Did you miss the word "estimated" which is code for "this is based on fuck all research, just what I think might probably be the case"
Not "fuck all research" as you put it, just figures claim to have been true in a census. Probably a good estimation of the truth.

sidecar bob

2nd February 2016, 18:03

Not "fuck all research" as you put it, just figures claim to have been true in a census. Probably a good estimation of the truth.

An estimation is a flash word for a guess, however you want to package it.

nodrog

2nd February 2016, 18:24

It says they have installed a proven barrier that prevents serious injury to motorcyclists but strangely it isn't one of those wire barriers you sem to think are ok.
The same type of barrier they have around circuits funnily enough (if they dont have the concreat block type).

Go figure einstein

please refer to post #131.

TheDemonLord

2nd February 2016, 18:52

An estimation is a flash word for a guess, however you want to package it.

Well, GDP is always estimated - For example things such as Cash Jobs, Illegal goods (Drugs, contraband etc.) which all contributes to GDP but isn't recorded due to it being illegal.

But of course, you would know that.....

swbarnett

2nd February 2016, 21:28

An estimation is a flash word for a guess, however you want to package it.
A guess is a figure drawn out of thin air based on NO data. An estimate is an approximate answer based either on some limited but indicative data.

granstar

2nd February 2016, 22:19

might find that was the brass three yr ago i think, and the cops did a fine job of feeding us bacon butties and eventually closed the road to all traffic once the wind died down and escorted us through so we could utilize the whole road,
at the end of the day if you haven't got the skills to stay in your own lane and anticipate what other traffic is likely to do then get off the fucken road and wait for the wind to die down.
and yes i have ridden and do still ride in strong winds from time to time.

Can attest to that, no fun riding near Russd7 after a feed of kina patties washed down with Lion Red :(

WristTwister

2nd February 2016, 22:33

Berries

2nd February 2016, 23:22

They say "of all fatalities, more were on W type..." this is stupid statistics. It's the odds of survival that matter, not how many people got killed by each barrier type. For each type of barrier, how many people die compared with how many people walk away?
New Zealand crash data does not define the type of barrier involved, it is simply a 'barrier'. If a serious/fatal then the various actual reports will detail it if it is involved in the crash, but you have no chance of finding that info for crashes where the rider walked away. Some years ago I started going through the actual crash reports to see whether I could tell from the drawing or from what was said whether it was possible to identify the type of barrier but they are rarely that detailed so I gave up.

It's a hard one. I have attended several fatal crashes where a rider impacted with your normal W section armco type barrier. It is impossible to say whether the rider would have been killed if it was a wire rope barrier, or indeed if there was no barrier at all. I am yet to see a fatal involving WRB personally but then when you compare installation lengths that is not surprising. Have seen several hits where the rider survived without being turned into some kind of vintage cheddar though.

All I know is that if you come off your bike and hit any kind of guardrail at any kind of decent speed it is going to hurt like a fucking bastard. I ride in to Dunedin every day on SH1 and see how frequently the median WRB gets hit and to be honest I am thankful it is there. You aren't going to hit it on a bike unless you are a complete tool, but it might just save you from some inattentive dickhead in a car from taking you out in a high speed and almost inevitably fatal head on.

Doppleganger

3rd February 2016, 06:00

please refer to post #131.

Argument fail ya twat.

Must be hard to think with that big cock in your mouth.

6,000 odd post on a motorcycle forum and you cant figure out the simple things about safety. Best you stay infront tof your keyboard ya hero

nodrog

3rd February 2016, 06:24

Argument fail ya twat.

Must be hard to think with that big cock in your mouth.

6,000 odd post on a motorcycle forum and you cant figure out the simple things about safety. Best you stay infront tof your keyboard ya hero

There seems to be only one person arguing here, I'm simply pointing out the facts.

P.s. your mums cock tastes funny.

swbarnett

3rd February 2016, 09:42

I am yet to see a fatal involving WRB personally
Do you mean "haven't heard of one"? In which case there was one a few years back in the Papakura area. I also heard of one in Sydney a few years earlier (the rider was hit by a ladder that fell off the vehicle ahead).

All I know is that if you come off your bike and hit any kind of guardrail at any kind of decent speed it is going to hurt like a fucking bastard. I ride in to Dunedin every day on SH1 and see how frequently the median WRB gets hit and to be honest I am thankful it is there. You aren't going to hit it on a bike unless you are a complete tool,
Or someone else is. Or your tyre blows. Or your frame breaks. Or ... There are any number of ways you can come off without being a complete tool.

Moi

3rd February 2016, 09:56

Do you mean "haven't heard of one"? In which case there was one a few years back in the Papakura area. I also heard of one in Sydney a few years earlier (the rider was hit by a ladder that fell off the vehicle ahead). Or someone else is. Or your tyre blows. Or your frame breaks. Or ... There are any number of ways you can come off without being a complete tool.

There was a rider who came off on the Waikato Expressway a few years back - can't find any report about it yet [still looking], IIRC, he had a blow-out and went into the WRB, can't remember whether he slid into the barrier supports or he rode into wire ropes still on the bike...

BTW - as for guess vs estimate - I used to explain to maths classes as "guess was an assumption" whereas an "estimate was a presumption" - the latter was based on evidence or data or experience, the former was "pulled out of the blue"...

I spoke too soon... http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/motorcyclist-killed-on-sh1-2012072009#axzz3z3BTsNjB

sidecar bob

3rd February 2016, 17:38

I ride my bikes as if binning them will kill me, regardless of wether I'm riding next to w W.R.B, a drain, a building, a shelter belt, a kerb, a lake, a fence, they are all hazards that could fuck me up, why such angst about a device that prevents one colliding with an oncoming truck? The retardation is palpable.

Berries

3rd February 2016, 18:06

Do you mean "haven't heard of one"?
I mean I have not been involved in the investigation of one. I have read the reports of several.

bogan

3rd February 2016, 18:39

The retardation is palpable.

Given that reductio ad absurdum, it sure is :facepalm:

sidecar bob

3rd February 2016, 18:45

Given that reductio ad absurdum, it sure is :facepalm:

Cool, it must be if you say it is champ. I guess you're one of the retards that rides differently around W.R.B's than other hazards because it's all a conspiracy man, they're out to get us with them.
Get over yourselves & start living rather than getting all wound up over stuff that's essentially fuck all that you can't change because in the scheme of things you rate as tiny wee men with a chip.
If you can't handle riding past a piece of street furniture without panicking about its design flaws maybe it's time to reconsider your mode of transport.

swbarnett

3rd February 2016, 18:46

I ride my bikes as if binning them will kill me,
This is a good argument against WRB. Why would you want to improve the odds of dieing (or at least being maimed) if you do come off?

bogan

3rd February 2016, 18:51

Cool, it must be if you say it is champ. I guess you're one of the retards that rides differently around W.R.B's than other hazards because it's all a conspiracy man, they're out to get us with them. Fuckin idiot.

I'm just clever enough to know the WRB issue is that a safety measure is more of a safety hazard for a subset of road users if they made their own error; and unnecessarily so as well. The retardation in your post is to completely overlook this point.

eldog

3rd February 2016, 19:37

I ride to my skill level and what I consider safe. I am not paranoid about WRBs etc only the muppets who tailgate me and change lanes into me while I am riding along side WRBs and other street furniture.

ok barriers and WRB are maybe a necessary evil but that doesn't mean that they can't have extras safety features that may improve the chances of the minority of users.

how often am I hearing in the media about minority's and their rights, often they don't have to pay anything toward what they are given/use. Bikers pay to use the highways and byways of our beautiful country, why can't we have something that affects us too.

Big Dog

3rd February 2016, 20:12

eldog

3rd February 2016, 20:18

Because tptb say it is not a cost effective use of the available funds.

So we afford to bring in refugees? And not protect our current citizens?

rearrange the budget priorities, increase the petrol tax
theres no excuse really.

sidecar bob

3rd February 2016, 20:28

So we afford to bring in migrants? And not protect our current citizens?

rearrange the budget priorities, increase the petrol tax
theres no excuse really.

Who pays the migrants?:facepalm:
How much protection do you want & where exactly do you want it?
You could possibly get a bulk discount deal on cotton wool.

Big Dog

3rd February 2016, 20:35

So we afford to bring in migrants? And not protect our current citizens?

rearrange the budget priorities, increase the petrol tax
theres no excuse really.
I hate to burst anyone's bubble but 30 years ago barriers were fairly rare. We are not even close to catching up with a lot of the nation's we compare ourselves to.

When you are deciding how to spend your budget at home do you spend it on the smallest changes first?
You have 100 blue ray discs and 100 dvds.
Do you spend $200 on a new DVD Player because you have one dvd that won't play in your current player or do buy a new $200 blue ray because you don't have one at all?

As to the extra tax I can't afford more tax.
I can barely afford to feed my family as it is.

Sent via tapatalk.

Big Dog

3rd February 2016, 20:44

eldog

3rd February 2016, 21:26

I hate to burst anyone's bubble but 30 years ago barriers were fairly rare. We are not even close to catching up with a lot of the nation's we compare ourselves to.

When you are deciding how to spend your budget at home do you spend it on the smallest changes first?
You have 100 blue ray discs and 100 dvds.
Do you spend $200 on a new DVD Player because you have one dvd that won't play in your current player or do buy a new $200 blue ray because you don't have one at all?

As to the extra tax I can't afford more tax.
I can barely afford to feed my family as it is.

Sent via tapatalk.
I have about 5 DVDs in total.
i have a DVDs player but don't use it
i spend my budget on mortgage first and foremost.
i am current fortunate to have to worry on far less than you obviously.

i would buy the blurry because I know in the long run its better for the community.

we don't have to catchup, we need to think ahead and smarter.

I would blu Ray existing sites then plan extensions as when I can afford it.

eldog

3rd February 2016, 21:29

The migrant issue is one of social responsibility. Nothing to do with road policies.

Let's say John Key decided he liked being pm so much that he declared nz a Republic and himself president for life, started massacring royalists, Christians, civil libertarians, labour voters and other dissenters.
Let say you fell into several of those groups and someone close to you nominated you for the others to save their skin.
Now how important is the refugee programs of other countries?

Sent via tapatalk.

i don't fall into any of these groups
not important for me other countries problems

social responsibility-when we become perfect then we can help others
I pay taxes too.... Some of which goes to pay for education, social welfare, benefits, police, garbage collections etc how much more social responsibility do I need to do.
I also help out in community groups for free and make donations
would prefer dealing with our own ones like Wairoa employment - ever been there?

sorry I can't help you out Big Dog
I found out last year to my cost it isn't what I am good at.

eldog

3rd February 2016, 21:32

Who pays the migrants?:facepalm:
How much protection do you want & where exactly do you want it?
You could possibly get a bulk discount deal on cotton wool.

How much starting off kit did you get when you started your working life?
just wait and see.

Drop us a line when you need a hand when/if your entangled in a WRB or similar

Big Dog

3rd February 2016, 23:15

Me thinks you worry too much.

Then only thing we can all be certain of is none of us are going to live forever so we need to do all the living we can.

Sent via tapatalk.

eldog

4th February 2016, 06:23

birth taxes death - some don't make birth

I don't worry too much anymore

meant refugees rather than migrants in previous posts

its always cheaper to plan and do things at the beginning the way you want to go forward, then to go back and add or change completely

Watch the Victoria viaduct in 5-10 years see what happens and the moaning about what we could have done....

going out for a ride

sidecar bob

4th February 2016, 06:26

How much starting off kit did you get when you started your working life?

Umm, WTF? Do they do that?
None, I took the money I'd saved by delivering the morning herald & cleaning school buses in the afternoon & bought a 1973 CB125 so I could commute, got a job at the local Ford dealer & have been self sufficient since.

eldog

4th February 2016, 06:29

Umm, WTF? Do they do that?
None, I took the money I'd saved by delivering the morning herald & cleaning school buses in the afternoon & bought a 1973 CB125 so I could commute, got a job at the local Ford dealer & have been self sufficient since.

You are what hard working people are about - good on you for going out there and doing it for yourself :Punk:

nzspokes

4th February 2016, 06:45

got a job at the local Ford dealer & have been self sufficient since.

Being Ford at least there was plenty to do. :laugh:

sidecar bob

4th February 2016, 11:54

Being Ford at least there was plenty to do. :laugh:

I've been BMW for the last 25 years, the work isn't running out there yet either.

Moise

18th February 2016, 23:38

From the latest Ride Forever newsletter:

Coromandel motorcyclists treated to a NZ first in safety
Roadside safety barriers along a scenic Coromandel route popular with motorcyclists, are being made even safer this month as motorcyclist safety rails are added onto existing barriers in high-risk areas.

Motorcyclist collisions with roadside barriers that are mainly designed to improve the safety of drivers in four-wheeled vehicles, can result in serious injuries and make up around 4% of all motorcycle fatalities in New Zealand.

Motorcyclist safety rails are especially designed to prevent motorcyclists from hitting the guardrail posts should they collide with the barriers in an accident. It is the first time these motorcyclist-friendly under-run rails have been used on New Zealand roads, thanks to Motorcycle Safety Levy (MSL) investment.

Mark Gilbert, Chair of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council (MSAC), which advises ACC on where the MSL should be invested, says "Making our roads as motorcyclist-friendly as possible is a top priority for us. Quite simply, the more forgiving the roads and roadsides, the more survivable the accidents and the more lives saved."

The innovative system works in reducing serious injuries by redirecting the rider along the barrier and away from hitting the unforgiving barrier posts.

The steel underrun barriers are the latest safety improvements made to this 130km stretch of Coromandel highway under the Safer Rides project.

"It's about creating a more forgiving roadside environment so that motorcyclists who have an accident will sustain less serious injuries".

Motorcyclist safety rails will be fitted onto 19 existing barrier installations and will be in place by the end of January 2016.

So, if you're going to hit a "safety" barrier, then make sure you do it on the Coro southern loop, in particular between Hikuai and Whanga.

Daffyd

19th February 2016, 01:10

Any chance of someone doing this ride could snap a pic so we know what they look like?

caspernz

19th February 2016, 06:28

Any chance of someone doing this ride could snap a pic so we know what they look like?

http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/118822-coromandel-loop-safety-overhaul.html

It's a simple "flattened out guttering" rail below the W rail.

Moise

19th February 2016, 08:47

http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/118822-coromandel-loop-safety-overhaul.html

It's a simple "flattened out guttering" rail below the W rail.
Innovative? First time in NZ? Makes it sound like a world first!

It's obviously no drama to retrofit, and I'd expect that the additional cost would be minimal if they were installed during construction.

Daffyd

19th February 2016, 12:46

http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/118822-coromandel-loop-safety-overhaul.html

It's a simple "flattened out guttering" rail below the W rail.

Thanks for that.

Daffyd

19th February 2016, 12:47

It's obviously no drama to retrofit, and I'd expect that the additional cost would be minimal if they were installed during construction.

True. (10 Chars)

russd7

19th February 2016, 21:47

http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/118822-coromandel-loop-safety-overhaul.html

It's a simple "flattened out guttering" rail below the W rail.

more like a racetrack now then :2thumbsup

fxxk

24th February 2016, 06:47

i think all barriers should be removed.

...and replaced with landmines.

Exactly, I would rather hit a land mine and die instantly than to hit either a solid barrier and break most, if not all my bones and die a slow painful death, or worse become crippled.. The idea of losing an arm or leg doesn't sound very nice either.

jellywrestler

24th February 2016, 07:23

The idea of losing an arm or leg doesn't sound very nice either.

just remember how much money you got from the tooth fairy, the amputee fairy pays a fortune if you wrap up the part and leave it under your pillow....

scumdog

24th February 2016, 07:50

NZTA's response show what happens when facts meet emotion. Bikers need to learn from this, particularly if they want to become effective lobbyists.

Having said that Hitch, my take on the NZTA letter at the start of this thread was that it was still refering to vehicles other than motorbikes in parts of it, i.e.

"Wire rope barriers 'catch' vehicles that leave the road. When a vehicle hits the wire rope barrier the cables flex, slowing the vehicle and pushing it back into its lane. The system absorbs impact energy, reducing the force on the passengers which means fewer and less severe injuries.

They are also designed so no part of them can penetrate the passenger compartment of cars."

Big Dog

24th February 2016, 08:20

Exactly, I would rather hit a land mine and die instantly than to hit either a solid barrier and break most, if not all my bones and die a slow painful death, or worse become crippled.. The idea of losing an arm or leg doesn't sound very nice either.
You may not understand land mines. For most types out in the field their key premise is not to kill.
But to maim.
An evaporated soldier can be left where he was sprayed. A dead but whole one takes 4 men to evac.
A dismembered but living one takes 4 men to carry, a medic to treat, an evac unit, medical treatment etc. Far more costly to a campaign, plus in all probability halts the current unit while they try to save their buddy exposing them to further attack unless they are keen test if this was the attack or just the redirection.

Not to mention the psychological harm to all who hear about it and now live in fear of being similarly maimed.
Most men fear losing limbs more than death even though one is easier to come back from.
There is not currently a prosthetic for death.

Sent via tapatalk.

pritch

24th February 2016, 08:48

awa355

24th February 2016, 11:57

Umm, WTF? Do they do that?
None, I took the money I'd saved by delivering the morning herald

I had a morning herald run as a kid. I started the paper round on a Tuesday, chucked it on the Saturday when I saw the size of the bundles I had to deliver. :doh:

James Deuce

24th February 2016, 12:15

You may not understand land mines. For most types out in the field their key premise is not to kill.
But to maim.
An evaporated soldier can be left where he was sprayed. A dead but whole one takes 4 men to evac.
A dismembered but living one takes 4 men to carry, a medic to treat, an evac unit, medical treatment etc. Far more costly to a campaign, plus in all probability halts the current unit while they try to save their buddy exposing them to further attack unless they are keen test if this was the attack or just the redirection.

Not to mention the psychological harm to all who hear about it and now live in fear of being similarly maimed.
Most men fear losing limbs more than death even though one is easier to come back from.
There is not currently a prosthetic for death.

Sent via tapatalk.

Yeah, nah, not quite. Anti-personnel mines are deployed to protect anti-AFV mines from clearance. What you've described is their secondary purpose and how they are deployed by guerilla/terrorist fighters. It's also fair to say that it is not doctrine to help the wounded during an engagement. You're technically supposed to leave them until it is relatively safe to evacuate, though this practice seems to be fading the further we get from WW1. Military planners are forgetting the comparative loss ratios of shooting a screaming wounded man in no-mans land to trying to evacuate him. Plenty of units reduced below fighting strength trying to save one comrade. The movies have a lot to answer for.

Big Dog

24th February 2016, 18:56

The comments about wounded being more resource hungry than a body are correct, although this theory tends to find more favour with generals than with soldiers on the ground. A wounded enemy could still be dangerous.

Your information on mines though might be half a century or so out of date and relates more to WW2 era mines than the more powerful versions found since - in Vietnam f'instance. These latter were considerably more lethal than their earlier counterparts.

Probably not far wrong about the out of date. Most of my knowledge of mines is related to talking to survivors who in the 80's were old men (50+ isn't that old but these guys were in a retirement home already the youngest in his fourties the eldest in his 80s, and you never know who is having on the young buck doing his school project ).
They talked about how their training had been aimed at bringing a man down and leaving him alive enough to get information if his comrades left him behind.
They talked about how some treaty was doing away with the practice and leading to the condemnation of the practice but that would never clear up the existing stuff.