Akaroa GP rant

[rastuscat]

Just putting it out there.

I took a Ride Forever course out yesterday on SH75, the Akaroa Hiway.

Before the ride we talked all the theory, and part of that was the cornering line that is appropriate on the roads of NZ. Not the track, the roads. Apexing isn't a good idea on the roads, as there are people coming the other way.

Out we went, and I couldn't keep track of the number of people apexing on the open road. I had my guys using their lane as they should, and that allowed for numpties hanging over the centre line, so no real risk was taken by my guys. (and girls, actually). We would be coming into a left hand corner, using a line 2/3 of the way out from the left, giving us width without being too close to the centre line.

This pic is just an example, it wasn't taken by me, it's from a Facebook page I use. Just for illustration.

What is it with people apexing on the hiways? Hanging their heads and other items across the centre line?

320186

Interested in peoples views on this. Frankly I ended up being pretty grumpy about it yesterday, people using the roads as a race track.

[rastuscat]

320187

Really? Surely a track day yes, but on a road we share with other people?

[Scubbo]

crazy eh, I do it from time to time when i'm not conciously trying not too... which is dangerous and have had a few scares tbh... getting better at not doing it though / breaking those old habbits of playing computer games if i'm honest :eek:

[pritch]

OK on left handers and OK on right handers - if you have good visibility. Otherwise no.

A decade or so back while riding around East Cape I had a near miss with a local builder in his ute. There is not a lot of room on that road and he was apparently full of the joys of spring and his driving was umm ebullient(?).

Thereafter I used an imaginary line a couple of feet to the left of where the real one would be, if there was one.

SH43 is another road where it doesn't pay to take liberties, same for the Coromandel loop, and as you suggest, the road to Akaroa.

A Kawasaki rider once told me that Akaroa is a nice place to have fish and chips by the sea. He was right.

[george formby]

I see it so often I can only conclude that the riders and drivers are oblivious to their road position and possible consequences. It also makes me think that if it's so common and people are getting away with it for so long that our roads are not as dangerous as is sometimes made out. Yeah, I know, a lot of room for improvement...
Still, seeing it constantly reinforces my efforts to stay out of the way.

[trufflebutter]

The saying 'Own your piece of road' is at times, misinterpreted.

Technically, that picture is not showing apexing. To apex, is to be at the highest point.

[pritch]

To apex, is to be at the highest point.

Eh?


10 chars

[trufflebutter]

Eh?


10 chars

To be at the highest point of the corner, not the lowest.

[awa355]

I never realized just how much I used to get my right shoulder / handlebar over the centre line on right handers, until I stated filming my rides with the GoPro. That gave me a wake up call, and now I try to be more conscious of bike placement.

[Tazz]

http://www.onedgetv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/SHhorseman900x506.jpg

[rastuscat]

I never realized just how much I used to get my right shoulder / handlebar over the centre line on right handers, until I stated filming my rides with the GoPro. That gave me a wake up call, and now I try to be more conscious of bike placement.

Funny. That's one of the things that going on a course gives you.......another set of eyes to see what you are doing. I guess the GoPro gives you that same advantage.

[carbonhed]

A picture

:lol: :clap:

[rastuscat]

The saying 'Own your piece of road' is at times, misinterpreted.

Technically, that picture is not showing apexing. To apex, is to be at the highest point.

I'm with you on that. The riding wasn't really proper apexing. It was more "Riding On The Stupid Line"

[Katman]

Frankly I ended up being pretty grumpy about it yesterday, people using the roads as a race track.

<img src="https://tgc-cache.s3.amazonaws.com/images/uploads/articles/batonhandoff.jpg"/>

[The End]

Is it such an issue when you can clearly see what is in front of you/see completely through the corner?

I won't lie, I do it sometimes when I am on a road I know and see there is no traffic coming.

Would a coppa pull me over for failing to indicate when moving out of my lane, or something else?

[Tazz]

Is it such an issue when you can clearly see what is in front of you/see completely through the corner?

I won't lie, I do it sometimes when I am on a road I know and see there is no traffic coming.

Would a coppa pull me over for failing to indicate when moving out of my lane, or something else?

Yes. It is a really bad habit. Part of the challenge in hammering down should be to do it while keeping within your own lane. It's a good feeling when you do it and are still passing corner cutting try hard 'can't actually ride for shit because I'm too busy thinking unnecessary leaning makes me fast' morons on the road to Akaroa, on a bike or otherwise.

I'll give you a pass on S bends on straights though, sometimes ;)

[pritch]

To be at the highest point of the corner, not the lowest.

The term as used in motorcycling is different to what you might see in the dictionary. The guy in Rastus's pic was close to the apex and the guy in my avatar is approaching it at a rate of knots.

[Berries]

Interested in peoples views on this.
If you can see round the corner and there is nothing coming then I don't see a problem with it. To be honest, if you can see that nothing is coming I don't have a problem with crossing the centreline and cutting the corner but then your former colleagues look down on that. Rules are rules yadeyadeyah.

On a right hand bend if you cannot see around it then you would be stupid to ride hanging over the centreline waiting to get your head twatted by an oncoming vehicle. I am happy to leave that for Darwin to sort out.

[rastuscat]

Is it such an issue when you can clearly see what is in front of you/see completely through the corner?

I won't lie, I do it sometimes when I am on a road I know and see there is no traffic coming.

Would a coppa pull me over for failing to indicate when moving out of my lane, or something else?

The issue was when we were coming into left hand corners and we were using the wide approach (2/3 of the way from the left of the road to the centre line) we ended up bloody close to the numpties coming around the right hand corner the other way with their wheels on the centre line. Their lean put them well over into our ride of the road.

Just wait until some spotty faced irk in a Skyline with double-overhead grease nipples comes into a left hander too hot and drifts wide. He'll make a hood ornament of anything on his side of the road.

And the other point here is that riding is done from habit. I bet any of those idiots I saw yesterday would have said they had plenty of room, and they had seen that the way was clear. Yes, it was clear. Apart from us coming the other way.

[WNJ]

Just wait until some spotty faced irk in a Skyline with double-overhead grease nipples comes into a left hander too hot and drifts wide. He'll make a hood ornament of anything on his side of the road.


Or a Rossi wanna be as has happened more often than you would think,

[AllanB]

Interesting post as I went up that hill yesterday and discovered one of those huge tour buses straddling the centre line while I was mid corner technically on my side but just .....

And gave the very subject quite a lot of thought after and since including this mornings short spin.

Blind corners - not a good idea period.

Open with good visibility, not too worried at the practice in that case as what it does allow is run off room to your left IF you find yourself overcooking it or a unknown corner tightens up (in which case there may not be that much visibility ....)

The PC response to my last statement above is of course, less speed then little need for such run-off.

The Akaroa road used to be one of NZ's best. But now it is constantly busy, in poor repair (gives one thought towards a long suspended mortard ....) and as a result becoming at times quite dangerous. I think of areas way back on much lesser machines where I used to pass and I'd not ever consider it now. Maybe getting old!

Back to the original subject. From a technical point of view of law - has a vehicle 'crossed' the centre line if it's wheels are still on the correct side? Aye?

Side note - talking to a chap yesterday who got ticketed a while back for crossing the marked lines on the inside of his corner lane - you know the corners - very wide with a centre line and inner curve line too generally with some hatching lines or similar carrying to the inner grass or similar. A few of these on the Akaroa road. He contested it but lost as apparently it is a thing!

[trufflebutter]

I'm with you on that. The riding wasn't really proper apexing. It was more "Riding On The Stupid Line"

Yes, it absolutely illustrates how not to corner, there was a similar photo on FB a few days ago with a Bus superimposed, a good proportion of the front left hand corner (American photo) of the Bus was smothering the motorcyclist.

[rastuscat]

Yes, it absolutely illustrates how not to corner, there was a similar photo on FB a few days ago with a Bus superimposed, a good proportion of the front left hand corner (American photo) of the Bus was smothering the motorcyclist.

Can you send me that pic with the bus imposed? It'll be great to use as a training example.

[george formby]

And the other point here is that riding is done from habit..

Yup. Better off with good ones. I've been pilloried on a UK forum for disagreeing with crossing the centre line to better see through a sweeping corner. It's commonly taught now, apparently. That's a pursuit technique IMHO. And a bad habit to make habitual on the roads you habitually ride on. Particularly if your heading home and your brain is discussing with your stomach whether to have Indian or Chinese. And you end up riding to fast for your appetite.

Readers may have a greater choice of cuisines than myself but you get my drift.

[AllanB]

On that road more looking forward to a Bacon Buttie at Little River or a Samon frittata? Mmmmmmmm

[rastuscat]

On that road more looking forward to a Bacon Buttie at Little River or a Samon frittata? Mmmmmmmm
Or a locha wocha mocha choca, per the liberal tendencies of today's hipsters.

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[Ocean1]

Yup. Better off with good ones. I've been pilloried on a UK forum for disagreeing with crossing the centre line to better see through a sweeping corner. It's commonly taught now, apparently. That's a pursuit technique IMHO. And a bad habit to make habitual on the roads you habitually ride on. Particularly if your heading home and your brain is discussing with your stomach whether to have Indian or Chinese. And you end up riding to fast for your appetite.

Readers may have a greater choice of cuisines than myself but you get my drift.

Habit has more to do with body inputs/reactions, rather than situational criteria. So I'd not be batting your corner.

There's a strategic difference between keeping to your "own" bit of road and avoiding oncoming traffic, and I'm an avid, nay devout adherent of the latter. To the point of completely ignoring any road marking whatsoever should it make me feel even slightly less exposed.

Also, let's not forget that while avoiding sharing space with heavy objects at significantly differing velocities is pretty high on the list of shit to worry about, it's not the only item there. Spotting a deeply suspicious shiny dark patch up ahead can easily alter my preferred line.

[rastuscat]

Habit has more to do with body inputs/reactions, rather than situational criteria. So I'd not be batting your corner.

There's a strategic difference between keeping to your "own" bit of road and avoiding oncoming traffic, and I'm an avid, nay devout adherent of the latter. To the point of completely ignoring any road marking whatsoever should it make me feel even slightly less exposed.

Also, let's not forget that while avoiding sharing space with heavy objects at significantly differing velocities is pretty high on the list of shit to worry about, it's not the only item there. Spotting a deeply suspicious shiny dark patch up ahead can easily alter my preferred line.
Yes indeedy.

I coach a conservative line on the road due to wanting to have a safety margin in the event that my preferred line isn't available at the last minute.

We stopped and had lunch at Little River with a guy who had an off by hitting a pine cone on a recent outing. A line with a safety margin might have saved him.

Still, I can't always disagree with those whose awesomeness allows them to ride a Rossi or Corser line coz they are some stunningly amazing pilot.

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[george formby]

Habit has more to do with body inputs/reactions, rather than situational criteria. So I'd not be batting your corner.
.

Anything done repetitively and thoughtlessly is a habit. My point with crossing the centre line in the UK is just my opinion that it is a condoned technique which could easily put a rider who is not paying attention in the face of oncoming traffic at high speed. I fail to see the benefit of being in the oncoming lane when I can achieve the same thing in my lane by slowing down slightly. IMHO

But yeah, na. Have a decent safety margin and keep refining it with experience, don't be habitual!

More info on being skittled by a pine cone would be nice.

[rastuscat]

Anything done repetitively and thoughtlessly is a habit. My point with crossing the centre line in the UK is just my opinion that it is a condoned technique which could easily put a rider who is not paying attention in the face of oncoming traffic at high speed. I fail to see the benefit of being in the oncoming lane when I can achieve the same thing in my lane by slowing down slightly. IMHO

But yeah, na. Have a decent safety margin and keep refining it with experience, don't be habitual!

More info on being skittled by a pine cone would be nice.

The UK Popos use the full width of the road to get a better approach view to left handers.

I think it's a bad idea myself. If everyone always stayed on their own side of the road there'd be bugger all head ons.

[Berries]

I've been pilloried on a UK forum for disagreeing with crossing the centre line to better see through a sweeping corner. It's commonly taught now, apparently. That's a pursuit technique IMHO. And a bad habit to make habitual on the roads you habitually ride on.
When is a habit a habit? I grew up with the old "I paid for it so I will bloody use it" UK approach to lane use and even now see no problem whatsoever with crossing the centreline on a RH bend. I don't do it so much here because I know of a few places with absolutely perfect through visibility where the Police like to hide to catch people doing it, not because it is dangerous on that particular corner but because it is supposedly indicative of a habit. Complete and utter shit. The habit is to cut corners if is safe to do so.

Unfortunately everything is done by the book these days with no leeway for whether an action was safe or not.

I did find a solution this afternoon though, overtaking on RH bends. If I had cut the corner with no car in front of me I would have been breaking the law however as I was overtaking someone (with 100m clear visibility blah blah blah) I was legal.

Which just goes to show what a complete crock of shit the rule is.

[SVboy]

I think it's important to try and give yourself options. I ride a sports bike on the GP and tend to late apex, early on the throttle, which can square off the corner. However one size does not fit all, because of the variety of corner types and hazards on that road. Some corners are definitely best approached with a conservative line and all corners have to be given the consideration for the hazards you can't see. Last weekend, coming up the long straight from Barry's bay, as I entered the tight right hander, a Mazda Bongo coming down the hill COMPLETELY entered my lane! I was able to delay my turn in and take a wide arc around the corner. Closest call I have had for a while. A good reminder.

[Voltaire]

Maybe instead of showing a sales bloke not taking his foot off the throttle and the other guy jumping the give way or stop sign they should show 5 minutes of the carnage and the

Police knocking at the relatives front door.

I was passing Police Station in Hanoi a couple of years back and they had a wall off carnage showing decapitated scooter riders and body parts scattered all over the road, was

fairly sobering...considering we were riding from Saigon to Hanoi and apparently lots of riders and drivers are.....well...pissed.

like this one. WARNING CONTAINS PICTURE OF DEATH.
http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/342756/80716298.jpg

[HenryDorsetCase]

The issue was when we were coming into left hand corners and we were using the wide approach (2/3 of the way from the left of the road to the centre line) we ended up bloody close to the numpties coming around the right hand corner the other way with their wheels on the centre line. Their lean put them well over into our ride of the road.

Just wait until some spotty faced irk in a Skyline with double-overhead grease nipples comes into a left hander too hot and drifts wide. He'll make a hood ornament of anything on his side of the road.

And the other point here is that riding is done from habit. I bet any of those idiots I saw yesterday would have said they had plenty of room, and they had seen that the way was clear. Yes, it was clear. Apart from us coming the other way.

Well, sure. I get what you're saying. And I agree. But fucktard grease nipple guy running wide will likely take out anybody on his side of the road. The closest I have ever come to death on that road was coming round one of those corners (near the top on the town side) and HELLO there is a fucking BOAT in my lane. Shitforbrains with his 4WD had taken it real wide coming in to the point that the fucking boat trailer was still in my lane. I managed to fit between the end of the trailer and the left side seal edge but it was close. And quick.

Life is risk. You mitigate as much as you can and then get stuck in.

If you can see, go for it. I think its important to get both knees down at least once on any trip over.

[Blackbird]

I think it's a bad idea myself. If everyone always stayed on their own side of the road there'd be bugger all head ons.

Absolutely, and George Formby's comment about bad habits becoming ingrained are quite interesting from the opposite perspective. When we're mentoring IAM trainee Observers in Roadcraft, part of the process is building errors into our ride for them to detect. It's actually bloody hard to make deliberate errors. Goes to show if you try and do things right for long enough, it sticks <_<

[rastuscat]

Absolutely, and George Formby's comment about bad habits becoming ingrained are quite interesting from the opposite perspective. When we're mentoring IAM trainee Observers in Roadcraft, part of the process is building errors into our ride for them to detect. It's actually bloody hard to make deliberate errors. Goes to show if you try and do things right for long enough, it sticks <_<
Hearing ya. When I was being audited for the Basic Handling Skills Test qualification I had to build deli erase errors into my demo rides. Damn hard work.

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[george formby]

The UK Popos use the full width of the road to get a better approach view to left handers.

I think it's a bad idea myself. If everyone always stayed on their own side of the road there'd be bugger all head ons.

I appreciate your agreement, Our Popo instructor up here thinks the same way.

I think it stems from the Popo Tv series' in the UK. About pursuit training and exciting stuff with helicopters and fast cars.

[OddDuck]

I've got a mate who does the cutting corners / leaning over the line thing... a lot. Drives me mental.

Every damn time I go over the Rimutakas and catch myself projecting over the centerline, there's some massive cliff wall of a truck coming straight at me, right around the next bend. Anything (helmet, shoulder etc) projecting even six inches over is going to get smashed big time.

It's an interesting road to try to GP-ride (and a lot of people do) but a rider is really taking serious chances with leaning over the line. Correction time on some of those corners is less than half a second.

[george formby]

Absolutely, and George Formby's comment about bad habits becoming ingrained are quite interesting from the opposite perspective. When we're mentoring IAM trainee Observers in Roadcraft, part of the process is building errors into our ride for them to detect. It's actually bloody hard to make deliberate errors. Goes to show if you try and do things right for long enough, it sticks <_<

Cheers. I was feeling unique. We're only human and I've learned that to be good at something you need to practice not just participate. And keep practicing.

[Gremlin]

Yup. Better off with good ones. I've been pilloried on a UK forum for disagreeing with crossing the centre line to better see through a sweeping corner. It's commonly taught now, apparently.
The term is offsiding and I believe is now being actively discouraged by IAM UK. In NZ crossing the centre line is illegal unless you're overtaking, turning etc. so it's never been accepted.

Rastus, you likely know my take, but for the others, I'm an IAM NZ Observer, so I'm taking associates for observed rides, giving them feedback and working with them to achieve advanced test standard so they can pass the test and become full members. Positioning alone can't be covered and nailed in one ride (plus needs practise to overcome any bad habits). There is the basic positioning of left of lane for right hander, right of lane for left hander, changing that based on information then move onto linking corners and so on.

So hopefully my own riding standard is pretty high :confused: Subject to safety, the right positioning gives you a better and further view forward, allowing you to see things sooner and more time to react (and for oncoming traffic to see you sooner as well... seen many vehicles decide that perhaps they should go back to using their own lane for the corner). Rastus, I also wouldn't expect riders to maintain any sort of position close to centre line on left hander with oncoming vehicles, instead sacrificing position for safety.

For me, I corner with reserves, able to change line should the situation require it.

[Ocean1]

Anything done repetitively and thoughtlessly is a habit. My point with crossing the centre line in the UK is just my opinion that it is a condoned technique which could easily put a rider who is not paying attention in the face of oncoming traffic at high speed. I fail to see the benefit of being in the oncoming lane when I can achieve the same thing in my lane by slowing down slightly. IMHO

But yeah, na. Have a decent safety margin and keep refining it with experience, don't be habitual!

More info on being skittled by a pine cone would be nice.

Re habit. I was using it in the sense of a learned reaction to outside stimuli rather than any formal policy. But you're quite right, I know one particular gentleman who has a tendency to cut corners and has on one occasion done it when he shouldn't.

I guess my point was that conscious decisions about where you are on the road shouldn't be unduly constrained by legal considerations. Lump that together with RC's general rule of thumb re approach positioning and call that a good default strategy.

Speed. I like to tour with enough margin to be able to deal with three unknowable problems on any given corner. Each problem can result in substituting speed for line and still give me a good chance at making it work.

I've been known to ride at a speed allowing for just two problems. Occasionally. Never just one.

[rastuscat]

The term is offsiding and I believe is now being actively discouraged by IAM UK. In NZ crossing the centre line is illegal unless you're overtaking, turning etc. so it's never been accepted.

Rastus, you likely know my take, but for the others, I'm an IAM NZ Observer, so I'm taking associates for observed rides, giving them feedback and working with them to achieve advanced test standard so they can pass the test and become full members. Positioning alone can't be covered and nailed in one ride (plus needs practise to overcome any bad habits). There is the basic positioning of left of lane for right hander, right of lane for left hander, changing that based on information then move onto linking corners and so on.

So hopefully my own riding standard is pretty high :confused: Subject to safety, the right positioning gives you a better and further view forward, allowing you to see things sooner and more time to react (and for oncoming traffic to see you sooner as well... seen many vehicles decide that perhaps they should go back to using their own lane for the corner). Rastus, I also wouldn't expect riders to maintain any sort of position close to centre line on left hander with oncoming vehicles, instead sacrificing position for safety.

For me, I corner with reserves, able to change line should the situation require it.

It's one reason why I haven't progressed my IAM application. The chap I was working with insisted on extreme-width lines.

I prefer and coach safety margins.

[Virago]

It's the one thing I've never figured out with bikers.

Let's find the nicest twisty road, and do everything possible to straight-line it. :confused:

[Blackbird]

It's one reason why I haven't progressed my IAM application. The chap I was working with insisted on extreme-width lines.

I prefer and coach safety margins.

Extreme positioning is always tempered by safety, stability and view in that order. In my view, there is no conflict as position is always dictated by the circumstance encountered; it is not an unwavering rule.

[EJK]

Can you send me that pic with the bus imposed? It'll be great to use as a training example.

https://www.facebook.com/248330508672335/photos/a.248340555337997.1073741828.248330508672335/517690838402966/?type=3&theater

:)

[Daffyd]

I remember some years ago two highly respected KB riders were leading a group ride, when for some reason one rode ahead. When he was returning to the group he was doing just this, Unfortunately his mate was doing the same and their heads hit. Not sure about the outcome... I think both died instantly, but at least one of them. Those who were members 8-9 years ago will remember this. Since then I NEVER allow any part of my bike or body o cross the line. (Except in an emergency).

[WNJ]

I remember some years ago two highly respected KB riders were leading a group ride, when for some reason one rode ahead. When he was returning to the group he was doing just this, Unfortunately his mate was doing the same and their heads hit. Not sure about the outcome... I think both died instantly, but at least one of them. Those who were members 8-9 years ago will remember this. Since then I NEVER allow any part of my bike or body o cross the line. (Except in an emergency).

Sad day on the CORO GP

[rastuscat]

https://www.facebook.com/248330508672335/photos/a.248340555337997.1073741828.248330508672335/517690838402966/?type=3&theater

:)

Cheers EJ

You are my photo hero.

[trufflebutter]

Yes thank you EJ.. I searched for about an hour yesterday using all combinations of words to help, to no avail. :rolleyes:

[willytheekid]

...able to change line should the situation require it.

Sums the whole problem and solution up nicely :msn-wink: (Cos if ya don't have time to react to change's on the road...ya done fucked up!)

[rastuscat]

I have seen a few UK bike police videos on the net and a lot of them like to hug the centre line on bends with the theory being they can see around them better so they can corner faster. Maybe many guys here from the UK and Europe follow this sort of riding as I have seen a few local vidoes of guys from Europe hugging the centre line on bends. I guess riding in preparation of someone coming around the bend a bit over the centre line would take all the fun out cornering for them maybe.
I completely understand.

One day someone will die doing it. Some already have.

The best way to make sure it isn't you is to avoid the centre line. Keep a safety buffer between yourself and the oncoming traffic, whether you can see it in not.

Amazing the number of people who hit things they didn't see.

I for one still manage to enjoy cornering without taking those risks. I've had fun flogging my Cherman behemoth around a track too, but that line stays on the track.

[swbarnett]

One day someone will die doing it wrong.
You missed a word.


The best way to make sure it isn't you is to avoid the centre line.
There's an easier way - don't be there at all.


Keep a safety buffer between yourself and the oncoming traffic, whether you can see it in not.
But being able to see the traffic is a safety buffer (as long as your brain is also engaged).


Like many things, on the road or not, done properly it's not a problem.

[AllanB]

It's the one thing I've never figured out with bikers.

Let's find the nicest twisty road, and do everything possible to straight-line it. :confused:

Hahah that made me laugh - fair point too.

Why? Basic really - can go faster while more upright ............

[300weatherby]

Annoying how many of the Akaroa GP mob have no line structure of their own, no ability to decide exactly where they are going to put the bike and where they are going to turn it and exit - the main reason for some of the riding lines you see, are a direct result of a complete lack of ability to decide and execute to a plan, they simply follow the white line, if on the blind side of the corner, you scrubbed out the line and painted a new one that went straight over the edge, most will follow it straight over, and the next one in the road train (one of their scary pastimes) will follow.

You can see the lack of control over their own destiny in corners when you have a look at the parked bike and assess (read) their tyres, which generally show that: typically they do not ( remember these guys are trying to go as fast as possible ) stop the bike, bang it on it's side, stand it up and fire it out on the gas (not suggesting that is ideal in an environment that tight either), more usually, the bike is slowed down enough to turn in from a long way out so that silly lean angles get generated, they become stuck with that lean angle as their only tool to turn the corner, and the control is no longer theirs, they wait on the bike while it turns on a suspended throttle and are at the mercy of geometry, eventually exiting the corner on the line decided by the bike, and gently ( I'll bet most of them think they are hard as on it) apply throttle as the bike stands itself back up.
For the Akaroa sport bike GP mob:
Lean angle does not mean you are Rossi.
Time spent at lean is time spent going too fucking slow!

My little spit does focus on a specific rider type and platform, but does apply to many other also, the only answer is to tie education/training to licencing, but spending nearly 30 mil on a bullshit flag debate is more important than spending on education.

[rastuscat]

That kind of covers the subject from an efficiency point of view.

Which is part of the beef.

But it's not just the Power Rangers who hug the centerline. I've seen Cruisers, dual sports, cafe racers, bobbers, all sorts.

Shit riding is shit riding, regardless of the riders demographic.

[mulletman]

Ive briefly followed a track rider on the hill who rode like they were on their racebike climbing all over it and constantly running wide
so what training/skills had they had that was transferable to the road ?

[pritch]

We stopped and had lunch at Little River with a guy who had an off by hitting a pine cone on a recent outing. A line with a safety margin might have saved him.



Knowing about target fixation might have helped him more.

[rastuscat]

Knowing about target fixation might have helped him more.
Almost hit him with that but didn't want to burst his bubble.

He was busy blaming the pine cone. I don't think he wanted to hear that his riding caused him to hit it.

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[EJK]

There is a guy on FB who takes candid shots of riders on the Akaroa road and maybe some are hoping to look cool if they get snapped.

Blaming the photographer for each and individual rider's "cool" riding habit is poor sportmanship :innocent:

[Moi]

Almost hit him with that but didn't want to burst his bubble.

He was busy blaming the pine cone. I don't think he wanted to hear that his riding caused him to hit it.


The SPCPC* takes a very dim view of that sort of behaviour...



* Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Pine Cones

[Maha]

Have you never heard of the saying "Showing off For the Camera"? I never said it was the photographers fault if guys want to show off for him.

There was an avid photographer that would come on our group rides...he would go on ahead (unbeknown to most on the ride) and would get excellent candid shots. To be fair, we never had any posers on our rides, and without question, the photo's taken (cornering shots) showed good road/head position.

[EJK]

Have you never heard of the saying "Showing off For the Camera"? I never said it was the photographers fault if guys want to show off for him.

I think I know a thing or two about showing off for the camera...

The year was 2007, story goes there was a rider on a Yamaha Scorpio... :innocent:

[Maha]

So their heads were not over the centre line when you say "good" then?

The so called 'racing line' has no place on the road, there's other shit coming the other way, as the photo EJ supplied on the 6th post #45.

[BrendonF]

Blaming the photographer for each and individual rider's "cool" riding habit is poor sportmanship :innocent:

Exactly mate, the pics I've had by the great photographer have been awesome pics:niceone: I can assure you I was not show boating, just riding normally as most do over the hill. It is only a small number of riders who think there Rossi, compared to the large number of normal riders who frequent Akaroa. If you want to avoid the racers, I suggest you go over in the afternoon as most of them have gone home by then.

[Laava]

I think I know a thing or two about showing off for the camera...

The year was 2007, story goes there was a rider on a Yamaha Scorpio... :innocent:

Please tell us more Grandpapa? *sits on floor crosslegged*

[trufflebutter]

Exactly mate, the pics I've had by the great photographer have been awesome pics:niceone: I can assure you I was not show boating, just riding normally as most do over the hill. It is only a small number of riders who think there Rossi, compared to the large number of normal riders who frequent Akaroa. If you want to avoid the racers, I suggest you go over in the afternoon as most of them have gone home by then.

Well that's it in a nutshell isn't it? a handful of photos is no real proof of common practice, but it certainly always seems to invokes a generalisation debate about the many.

[BrendonF]

While they are possibly the same riders as the Rossi wannabes I think those group riders doing multivehicle overtakes approaching bends are the most dangerous. They are all under pressure to keep up so they dont get rubbished by their mates at the Little River Cafe maybe.

yeah that happens and see it a few times. I personally just ignore them and ride they way I want to, not to fast and not to slow. Not sure if you have been there recently but some of the tight bends are getting extremely rutted and you cant go that quick around them without your wheels lifting up or going very wide.

[Tazz]

I have found the only way to handle ruts and pot holes on the road is to get an adventure bike and bought one in 2011 after the earthquakes as I knew the roads would be stuffed for many years and most likely for the rest of my lifetime. The road surface plays an important part in how safe your ride is and it would be gravel patches that would be my biggest worry and there are always contractors doing something on that road. I went over in the car about 8.30 mid week 2 weeks ago and once past Halswel I almost had the entire road to myself making it a good time to go over.

I have to say that is one of my favourite things about my WR, you see a hump in the road and you pin the throttle to try and get some air rather than hitting the brakes and bracing :laugh:

[Katman]

Please tell us more Grandpapa? *sits on floor crosslegged*

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/62350-EJ-quot-Bin-Ladens-quot-it!

[rastuscat]

There is a guy on FB who takes candid shots of riders on the Akaroa road and maybe some are hoping to look cool if they get snapped.

I think that's actually one of the problems.

If someone thinks they are going to have their photo taken, they pose. Simple.

I actually love the pics that I see though, and the guys who take them. They are motorcycle enthusiasts.

It's the guys who think they'll make the cover of "Get Your Elbow Down Weekly" that cheese me off.

[Tazz]

I think that's actually one of the problems.

But that's 'their' problem, not the photographers. It's the same vein as the stories of guys trying to impress a bunch of girls or pub goers and having things go horribly wrong, or even that peer pressure shit.

[HenryDorsetCase]

But that's 'their' problem, not the photographers. It's the same vein as the stories of guys trying to impress a bunch of girls or pub goers and having things go horribly wrong, or even that peer pressure shit.



Pull up a chair and let me tell you about me and the DT400

[merv]

Lol, remember this story http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/144252-Diavel-crash-on-the-Akaroa-Hill-Info-wanted

[T.W.R]

The days of riding the akers quickly have been gone for decades, most of the old school punters that know how to ride it fast & properly rarely venture there any more, and if so they're usually home before the johnny come latelys & wanna heros have even thought about heading out.
And its mainly due to the exact reasons this rant started....numpties riding beyond their capabilities putting themselves & their machines in positions that not only risk their own but others saftey....the road has a reputation and wannabes try to emulate stories they've heard or create new...not always with the results they expect. The akers bites fools with ease

[300weatherby]

There would be many who rode it fast who are now in the cemetery too.

According to the Akaroa cop, the average is one a year, which just happens to match the Isle of Man average, want to do the TT, but the wife is dead set against it. But the Akaroa GP is ok. Maybe we should rename it the Akaroa TT and have timing, Darwin would be proud of us.

[T.W.R]

There would be many who rode it fast who are now in the cemetery too.

No shit Einstein....but think about it, you could say that about any piece of road anywhere in NZ so you aren't making any profound statement :weird:

[SVboy]

The days of riding the akers quickly have been gone for decades, most of the old school punters that know how to ride it fast & properly rarely venture there any more, and if so they're usually home before the johnny come latelys & wanna heros have even thought about heading out.
And its mainly due to the exact reasons this rant started....numpties riding beyond their capabilities putting themselves & their machines in positions that not only risk their own but others saftey....the road has a reputation and wannabes try to emulate stories they've heard or create new...not always with the results they expect. The akers bites fools with ease

I disagree with much of this post. The machine and tyre technology is so much more advanced that riding quickly and consistently is much easier than decades ago. Timing is important given the traffic, sun, cruise boats etc but there are plenty of opportunities for a clean run. Plenty of new riders, which is a good thing, but still a big group of regulars who have done the GP for years and years.
No doubt that the road can bite, but as a way of upskilling your riding, it is great. Hard to account for the wild cards such as the sheep, diesel, tourists parked in the middle of the road etc etc etc but only a very naive rider considers motorcycling a low risk passion.

[pritch]

[QUOTE=300weatherby;1130953913]According to the Akaroa cop, the average is one a year, which just happens to match the Isle of Man average,

TT week usually accounts for a few more than that. My reading suggests Mad Sunday usually takes a few but they don't make the news.

[awayatc]

Followed wee newish car on road to kaikoura the other day...
Young female driver cut every right hand corner by huge margins..
Every corner...wasn't even going fast.
Was her way of driving... scary

[AllanB]

TT is one week a year at extreme speeds. ATT is all year on a public road.

Shit condition road too - fucking CCC.

Don't get me started on post EQ CCC.

[RGVforme]

TT is one week a year at extreme speeds. ATT is all year on a public road.

Shit condition road too - fucking CCC.

Don't get me started on post EQ CCC.

Yes keeping in mind that the Isle of man itself has no open road speed limit and is visited by many motorcyclists year round because it is the home of the TT making the stats quoted an interesting read.

[rastuscat]

I disagree with much of this post. The machine and tyre technology is so much more advanced that riding quickly and consistently is much easier than decades ago. Timing is important given the traffic, sun, cruise boats etc but there are plenty of opportunities for a clean run. Plenty of new riders, which is a good thing, but still a big group of regulars who have done the GP for years and years.
No doubt that the road can bite, but as a way of upskilling your riding, it is great. Hard to account for the wild cards such as the sheep, diesel, tourists parked in the middle of the road etc etc etc but only a very naive rider considers motorcycling a low risk passion.

Your post kind of makes me uncomfortable.

Are you saying that SH75 is a training track?

If so, those involved need to learn to ride before venturing out onto public roads. And sharpen their skills on a track, not the roads we share.

Harrumph.

[Gremlin]

It's one reason why I haven't progressed my IAM application. The chap I was working with insisted on extreme-width lines.

I prefer and coach safety margins.
Had an interesting thought on this today. Playing devils advocate, you could easily argue:

The riders in question likely feel their riding is acceptable. According to your standards (ex Police, NZTA I endorsed etc) they aren't acceptable.
I'm sure you would say your riding is acceptable. Against the IAM standard... it sounds like it wouldn't be acceptable.

Herein lies the human element. Anyone slower than you is some stupid nana, everyone faster than you is a crazy loon. The same way I think ?you've? mentioned that surveys always show that more than 50% of the population feels their driving ability is above standard... which isn't statistically possible :confused:

So ultimately, what standard should be upheld? If most deem their riding acceptable where do you draw the line, and tell those on the wrong side that they're on the wrong side because someone said so...

Interesting conundrum and my head hurts from all the deep thinking. I think I've used up my allocation of deep thoughts for at least a few months...

[Bass]

Had an interesting thought on this today. I think I've used up my allocation of deep thoughts for at least a few months...

You have come quite a long way since the ZX10, IMHO.

[SVboy]

Your post kind of makes me uncomfortable.

Are you saying that SH75 is a training track?

If so, those involved need to learn to ride before venturing out onto public roads. And sharpen their skills on a track, not the roads we share.

Harrumph.

Not at all. It is a challenging stretch of road offering a wide range of fixed as well as changing hazards. For a rider wishing to develop aspects of the riding such as cornering, trail braking, planning and hazard recognition, it is rewarding. I am not advocating it as a place for newbies to learn their basic craft. That's your job! It's not a race track, it's a hazardous public hi way and While track skills are valuable, they certainly don't translate directly to road riding, in most instances.

[rastuscat]

Had an interesting thought on this today. Playing devils advocate, you could easily argue:

The riders in question likely feel their riding is acceptable. According to your standards (ex Police, NZTA I endorsed etc) they aren't acceptable.
I'm sure you would say your riding is acceptable. Against the IAM standard... it sounds like it wouldn't be acceptable.

Herein lies the human element. Anyone slower than you is some stupid nana, everyone faster than you is a crazy loon. The same way I think ?you've? mentioned that surveys always show that more than 50% of the population feels their driving ability is above standard... which isn't statistically possible :confused:

So ultimately, what standard should be upheld? If most deem their riding acceptable where do you draw the line, and tell those on the wrong side that they're on the wrong side because someone said so...

Interesting conundrum and my head hurts from all the deep thinking. I think I've used up my allocation of deep thoughts for at least a few months...

Certainly things like this are subjective. And I sure don't want to cause angst.

We are each entitled to our own view of what constitutes competent riding. Mine tends to err on the side of caution. Others are risk takers.

What I regard as risky, some regard as good riding. I'm conservative.

That said, I have fun throwing my 300 kg Tectonic car-with-2-wheels around corners. I just do it with safety margins.

Others appear to do it without such margin, and they can suit themselves really. Except when it's me or my whanau coming the other way, then I get prissy.

The challenge is those who corner without thinking, they just corner. I even had a guy on basic handling skills tell me he shifts his weight around on the bike coz he saw the Moto GP guys doing it. Thing is, it was during practice for his BHST. At 20 kmh.

Lots of folk are just riding. No plan, just riding. Those are either ones taking risks they don't even know they are taking. Or maybe they do, and just don't care, as they are having fun.

[rastuscat]

Not at all. It is a challenging stretch of road offering a wide range of fixed as well as changing hazards. For a rider wishing to develop aspects of the riding such as cornering, trail braking, planning and hazard recognition, it is rewarding. I am not advocating it as a place for newbies to learn their basic craft. That's your job! It's not a race track, it's a hazardous public hi way and While track skills are valuable, they certainly don't translate directly to road riding, in most instances.

Entirely agree. I'm a big proponent of trail braking, it's my go-to technique.

Nice to agree. I originally thought I'd be starting my day with a frowin.

Now I've turned that frown upside down.

Awwwww shucks

[nzspokes]

Entirely agree. I'm a big proponent of trail braking, it's my go-to technique.

Nice to agree. I originally thought I'd be starting my day with a frowin.

Now I've turned that frown upside down.

Awwwww shucks

Trail braking is a term with more than one meaning. I would suggest its one that shouldn't be used from a trainers perspective as it can cause confusion.

[rastuscat]

Trail braking is a term with more than one meaning. I would suggest its one that shouldn't be used from a trainers perspective as it can cause confusion.
Definitely. There's a few techniques I use that don't get taught on courses. We teach standards on courses, and trail braking isn't one of them.

Worry not, citizen.[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

Definitely. There's a few techniques I use that don't get taught on courses. We teach standards on courses, and trail braking isn't one of them.

Worry not, citizen.[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Which trail braking don't you teach?:laugh:

[Gremlin]

Lots of folk are just riding. No plan, just riding. Those are either ones taking risks they don't even know they are taking. Or maybe they do, and just don't care, as they are having fun.
That's where an element of bad habits slip in. You do it a little and get away with it, then keep doing it. If they take up some regular training (because it should be viewed as ongoing) hopefully those risks are identified and eliminated.

Of course, then we get back to the ol chestnut... usually those most in need of training aren't the ones seeking it... ;)

[rastuscat]

Of course, then we get back to the ol chestnut... usually those most in need of training aren't the ones seeking it... ;)

Zackery. All it takes to be a fantastic rider is a road legal race bike, and a set of leathers, boots, helmets and gloves just like Valentino's.

Hearing ya Grem.

[rastuscat]

So what is trail braking? Its possible I do it already but have never heard of the term. .

Trail braking used to be quite common.

There used to be a category of bikes called trail bikes. The brakes were used for trail braking.

Now we call them endures, dual sports, moto cross bikes, and Shazam, trail braking has faded away.

:msn-wink:

[rastuscat]

It's my thread and I'll be frivolous if I want to.

[rastuscat]

So then is it the difference between offroad braking and braking on tar seal?
Google it. You'll find lots of different answers.

I am not a racer. Never have been. When I Googled it I found lots of racing references and front brake advice.

My own version of trail braking is to use the rear for increased slow speed control. I trail the brake to gain greater control and maneuverability.

I was taking the mick with the trail bike reference. Couldn't help myself.



Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[trufflebutter]

Google it. You'll find lots of different answers.

I am not a racer. Never have been. When I Googled it I found lots of racing references and front brake advice.

My own version of trail braking is to use the rear for increased slow speed control. I trail the brake to gain greater control and maneuverability.

I was taking the mick with the trail bike reference. Couldn't help myself.



Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

I slightly load/cover the rear brake, primarily in any down hill situation. Personally, I find that it helps seat the bike better when used in conjunction with the front brake.

[rastuscat]

I slightly load/cover the rear brake, primarily in any down hill situation. Personally, I find that it helps seat the bike better when used in conjunction with the front brake.

My personal rules for braking in corners look like this. Especially when coming downhill.

Rule 1 for braking in corners: Don't do it.

Rule 1A : If Rule 1 for braking in corners is inappropriate, gentle application of the rear brake is the key.

Rule 1B for braking in corners is use a gear lower than usual, employ the higher revs to generate back pressure, and use steady throttle control to deploy the pressure. Using good control of the revs and engine braking means I get to comply with Rule 1.

Most folk don't use the full rev range of their bike. Mine is happily normally running (at Corporal Jones pace, my standard) at up to 4000 revs, but the red line is at 9000. When using engine braking a choose a gear that takes me up to around 7, 7 tops.

Basically, weight transfer in corners is not our friend. Weight transfer can come from the brakes (front brake, massive weight transfer), acceleration or deceleration. Pre the sight line opening up I don't accelerate, decelerate or brake much at all. My speed is adjusted pre corner.

Acceleration happens once my corner opens out.

Just my musings.

[george formby]

My own version of trail braking is to use the rear for increased slow speed control. I trail the brake to gain greater control and maneuverability.

I was taking the mick with the trail bike reference. Couldn't help myself.



Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Learning to keep a steady throttle and use the rear brake to control attitude and speed when crushing cones in a car park was a revelation for me. Hello full lock turns. Handy on the road, too, when you come across one of those never ending downhill hairpin bends. Using a touch of rear brake continues to slow the bike but it still tips in smoothly.

Their is a KB'er who has posted pics of a chainsaw on his bike when he goes bush bashing. The ultimate trail breaker?

[rastuscat]

Learning to keep a steady throttle and use the rear brake to control attitude and speed when crushing cones in a car park was a revelation for me. Hello full lock turns. Handy on the road, too, when you come across one of those never ending downhill hairpin bends. Using a touch of rear brake continues to slow the bike but it still tips in smoothly.

It was the Popo training that taught me to be a Slow Pro.

Anyone can point a bike down a striaght bit of road and open the throttle. Turning a 300 kg bike on a dime takes real skill.

[george formby]

It was the Popo training that taught me to be a Slow Pro.

Anyone can point a bike down a striaght bit of road and open the throttle. Turning a 300 kg bike on a dime takes real skill.

LOL. Yup. Spent the last 3 years doing gymkhana stuff. Cannot recommend it highly enough for learning bike control. Oh, you forgot balls. Even if it's not your bike.

[rastuscat]

LOL. Yup. Spent the last 3 years doing gymkhana stuff. Cannot recommend it highly enough for learning bike control. Oh, you forgot balls. Even if it's not your bike.

I qualified in 2006.

We were terribly hard on clutches and brakes back then, making up for lack of ability by thrashing the bike.

It takes a while, but eventually your skill increases, and the grey area filling the clutch/throttle/rear brake triangle becomes your friend.

You get far better, and the bike benefits by being your friend, not your thrash-toy.

That gymkhana stuff is gold.

[Moi]

My personal rules for braking in corners look like this. Especially when coming downhill...

This is worth downloading: from the Norwegian Motorcycle Union "FullControl (http://nmcu.org/files/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)"

Explains the science as well as...

[Moi]

It was the Popo training that taught me to be a Slow Pro.

Anyone can point a bike down a striaght bit of road and open the throttle. Turning a 300 kg bike on a dime takes real skill.

Might be more use in Wellywood... but certainly impresive


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVMTaAoO7OM

[rastuscat]

Might be more use in Wellywood... but certainly impresive

When I was an ACC motorcycle popo we were on R80RTs.

Liverpool Street in Auckland was where we did that stuff. Fierce.

[rastuscat]

This is worth downloading: from the Norwegian Motorcycle Union "FullControl (http://nmcu.org/files/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)"

Explains the science as well as...

Downloaded, looks cool. Must take the time to read it.

[Moi]

When I was an ACC motorcycle popo we were on R80RTs.

Liverpool Street in Auckland was where we did that stuff. Fierce.

Did the bike have crampons rather than tyres? :laugh:

[Ocean1]

Rule 1B for braking in corners is use a gear lower than usual, employ the higher revs to generate back pressure, and use steady throttle control to deploy the pressure. Using good control of the revs and engine braking means I get to comply with Rule 1.

Most folk don't use the full rev range of their bike. Mine is happily normally running (at Corporal Jones pace, my standard) at up to 4000 revs, but the red line is at 9000. When using engine braking a choose a gear that takes me up to around 7, 7 tops.

Starting to get a little bike-specific. Do that on my old XB Buells and you'd better have the clutch covered, the back will step out, potentially lots.

It comes back though, as the bike slows towards the apex. In fact apart from the likely initial nudge on the "manual slipper clutch" it's somewhat self-correcting, quite predictable and reasonably safe.

Do the same on some high-strung smaller bikes without the rotational mass of the bigger beasties and you'll push the engine up into potential damage rev territory.

[swbarnett]

When I was an ACC motorcycle popo we were on R80RTs.

Liverpool Street in Auckland was where we did that stuff. Fierce.
Back in the '80s I had to stop half way up Liverpool Street a couple of times. I had no choice but to do a backwards U-turn. My CB250 simply didn't have the guts to get moving again uphill.

[willytheekid]

My own version of trail braking is to use the rear for increased slow speed control. I trail the brake to gain greater control and maneuverability.

I was taking the mick with the trail bike reference. Couldn't help myself.



Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Trail braking, or draggin the rear brake pre-corner for entry setup.

This makes the bike "squat" down lower, thus lengthening the distance between the two axles and lowering the center of gravity.
This means More stability entering the corner, more grip on the rear end due to less front end dive when ya hit the front picks :niceone: (its not the fastest way to corner, but this is what I was taught many many yrs ago at advanced rider training...seems to work?:confused: )


...but what would I know....I drive a friggin car now :cry: (work is not bike friendly:no:(Im too "scruffy" in my gear:scratch:...its been nearly 9 months now with only the odd sneaky "rego's on hold" run on the weekends...and its doin ma head in!!:weird:)

[rastuscat]

Trail braking, or draggin the rear brake pre-corner for entry setup.

This makes the bike "squat" down lower, thus lengthening the distance between the two axles and lowering the center of gravity.
This means More stability entering the corner, more grip on the rear end due to less front end dive when ya hit the front picks :niceone: (its not the fastest way to corner, but this is what I was taught many many yrs ago at advanced rider training...seems to work?:confused: )


...but what would I know....I drive a friggin car now :cry: (work is not bike friendly:no:(Im too "scruffy" in my gear:scratch:...its been nearly 9 months now with only the odd sneaky "non rego'd" run on the weekends...and its doin ma head in!!:weird:)

Hey Wheelie, if you are missing a ride, I have a moped you can borrow......

[george formby]

If'n any of y'all want to see white line love head up my way this weekend. The Iron Run is in town.
Followed home by 3 bikes, 2 cruisers and 1 dunno, twin headlight jobbie, this arvo. Lost count of the times they crossed the centre line or leaned over it on an 8km stretch of twisty road. That's just what I spotted in my mirrors.

The leader was sat in my blind spot when an opportunity came up for me to let them past and have a crack at the 3 cars ahead of me. Sure as shit stinks off they went, one got past before the blind crest and corner at the top of Lemons hill, the other two continued to squeeze through on the white line with oncoming vehicles. But no trucks...

Why ride into shit you can't see on the wrong side of the road? The first rider must have had the EFTPOS card.

Anyhoo. No surprises. I hope it's a great weekend for the participants and they keep their heads pulled in IYKWIM.


Aaaaah, sharings caring.

[willytheekid]

Hey Wheelie, if you are missing a ride, I have a moped you can borrow......

LOL...just need an entire new kit mate*, but thanks! <_<:laugh:




*(You name it!, Helmet, boots, pants, jacket..sob!, love that jacket!, gloves and wet weather gear...all just worn out and looking like shit!...and I keep whats left of my brain in whats left of that 3.5yr old smelly helmet:eek5:...hence its time to save up and update the safety gear before riding full time again:yes:...especially with the new baby and all that :msn-wink:)

[Black Knight]

The HD Iron Run at Pahia has Kerikeri in its sights on Saturday for a run to Keri and back-anyone can join in but not me fellas-if what George saw with 3 of them imagine what the expected 1000 riders will produce,the T intersection at Puketona will be interesting,as will some of the bars in Paihia on Sat night.

[george formby]

The HD Iron Run at Pahia has Kerikeri in its sights on Saturday for a run to Keri and back-anyone can join in but not me fellas-if what George saw with 3 of them imagine what the expected 1000 riders will produce,the T intersection at Puketona will be interesting,as will some of the bars in Paihia on Sat night.

Don't be like that BK. Nothing happened, I'm just a tad over focused on this safety thing since I put the GF on two wheels. No doubt I was a bit lairy until I decided to up my game.

I don't like group rides full stop. I always feel that I have to think for the other riders, too, and it wears me out mentally. I start to think of snooker or ten pin bowling.
I will be in Paihia after 2pm to have a gawp at the heavy metal and the Mack breakdown truck. Sorry, hard to resist stereotype jokes.
PM me if your coming over and I will put a red rose in my button hole.

Ok, back to negotiating corners. As you were.

[ellipsis]

The HD Iron Run at Pahia has Kerikeri in its sights on Saturday for a run to Keri and back-anyone can join in but not me fellas-if what George saw with 3 of them imagine what the expected 1000 riders will produce,the T intersection at Puketona will be interesting,as will some of the bars in Paihia on Sat night.


...you'd probably not fit in too well with one of your , 'bunch of Hondas' anyway...

[RGVforme]

Don't be like that BK. Nothing happened, I'm just a tad over focused on this safety thing since I put the GF on two wheels. No doubt I was a bit lairy until I decided to up my game.

I don't like group rides full stop. I always feel that I have to think for the other riders, too, and it wears me out mentally. I start to think of snooker or ten pin bowling.
I will be in Paihia after 2pm to have a gawp at the heavy metal and the Mack breakdown truck. Sorry, hard to resist stereotype jokes.
PM me if your coming over and I will put a red rose in my button hole.

Ok, back to negotiating corners. As you were.

Speaking of corners and group rides.

Yep same here tried it twice and Nah...Large group riders esp club HD runs tend to bunch up for that 'We are a Gang' look and feel that make most HD riders moist thus had me thinking ten pin bowls also.Then I heard a local story where some HD guys had a rideout with no set brief and some out of town riders mixed in.... Went around a sweeping RH with a side road running straight off to the left which a rider towards the front of the group thought was the route then had some behind try to follow so hello confusion and strike.:facepalm:.

I would never follow behind a car this close while riding at these speeds so seeing this displayed often makes my buttonhole pucker to rose stem diameters besides isn't tailgating the vehicle in front illegal even if bikes do or should stagger pattern?:Police:It would only take a slight move sideways of the bike in front for it to become too close...Ive never heard of anyone stopped on a group ride by Mr plod for this but have re tin tops.:confused:

[george formby]

Yeah, group rides. I'm sure that a bunch of mates, or a club, regularly riding together in staggered formation trust each other and have event free rides but I always feel hemmed in. I like as much space as I can get and sticking to a position on the road is anathema for me.

I came around a corner t'other day to find a boat lying in the road, no dramas, but it highlights why I like my space.

[SPman]

Group rides.....I like to be ahead of the slowbies/casual group and well behind the Rossi wannabees and genuine fast guys group. Normally meant I rode by myself, which suited me fine. Now I just ride by myself - or with the missus - much less carnage.

I learnt first hand about sticking too close/over the white line back in '76 - 4 o'clock in the morning heading down to Maketu from the North Shore...the long sweeping RH downhill bend on the top end of SH2 - before the timber mill.....logging truck coming the other way about 2 ft over the white line :eek:,... so I had to rather rapidly change where I was on the road - a bit too much as it turned out as I ran off the edge of the seal (the road was tighter and narrower then), and hilarity ensued! Luckily it was dark, so I didn't see where I was going and what poles, posts, etc I was missing by a gnats testicle, but, GT750 Ducatis', while passable, are not recommended as Motorcross bikes !

Needless to say, late turn in and nowt hanging over the line became more the flavour of the century from there on in.........

[eldog]

Trail braking used to be quite common.

There used to be a category of bikes called trail bikes. The brakes were used for trail braking.

Now we call them endures, dual sports, moto cross bikes, and Shazam, trail braking has faded away.:msn-wink:


:niceone: so funny :laugh:, now Cassina will ask about Trail Nut bars

[Black Knight]

...you'd probably not fit in too well with one of your , 'bunch of Hondas' anyway...

I didn't tell ya how big the biggest one is eh?

[BrendonF]

It was the Popo training that taught me to be a Slow Pro.

Anyone can point a bike down a striaght bit of road and open the throttle. Turning a 300 kg bike on a dime takes real skill.

YEP, it does. Try doing a U turn on a single lane on a 350KG FJR1300, not easy. My current 250+KG BMW1200S is actually longer than FJR and is more difficult at low speed. High speed the BMW kicks the FJRs arse and is still comfy.

[Gremlin]

My current 250+KG BMW1200S is actually longer than FJR and is more difficult at low speed. High speed the BMW kicks the FJRs arse and is still comfy.
The K12/13 have horrible steering locks :no:

[BrendonF]

The K12/13 have horrible steering locks :no:

Yes they are shocking. to turn around in double garage is about a 4-5 point turn and theres nothing else in there. The duolever front end does not help, but I reckon that's one of the best front ends on a bike. :yes:

[rastuscat]

YEP, it does. Try doing a U turn on a single lane on a 350KG FJR1300, not easy. My current 250+KG BMW1200S is actually longer than FJR and is more difficult at low speed. High speed the BMW kicks the FJRs arse and is still comfy.

I suggest Jenny Craig for your FJR.

I just delivered a Bronze course. One guy had a GN 125. I said " Gizzago" and he foolishly let me.

I found out how tightly a 125 can turn. I can turn my RT on a dime. Well, I can turn the GN on a penny using the exact same techniques.

The GN was actually a lot of fun.

I've not tried a K bike but they look less suited to gymkhanas than the R series.

[george formby]

I suggest Jenny Craig for your FJR.

I just delivered a Bronze course. One guy had a GN 125. I said " Gizzago" and he foolishly let me.

I found out how tightly a 125 can turn. I can turn my RT on a dime. Well, I can turn the GN on a penny using the exact same techniques.

The GN was actually a lot of fun.

I've not tried a K bike but they look less suited to gymkhanas than the R series.

You would love my Randonee. Nearly 90o of lock..

My best (smallest) turns are on my G/F's 2t chook chaser. Amazin how far you can lean it at full lock before you fall the last foot.

[Gremlin]

I've not tried a K bike but they look less suited to gymkhanas than the R series.
I've almost fallen off several K bikes when I turned the bars into a tight turn and they hit the stops way too soon.

The RT is easily better, the GS/GSA is even better again ;) 2up u-turns in about 2 lanes is somewhere near my limit... when you have crowds all looking on and you're hemmed in by barriers you REALLY don't want to mess it up :whistle:

[rastuscat]

I've almost fallen off several K bikes when I turned the bars into a tight turn and they hit the stops way too soon.

The RT is easily better, the GS/GSA is even better again ;) 2up u-turns in about 2 lanes is somewhere near my limit... when you have crowds all looking on and you're hemmed in by barriers you REALLY don't want to mess it up :whistle:

I considered the GS LC. Until I realised it had no stereo.

[Maha]

I considered the GS LC. Until I realised it had no stereo.

I once heard a bikes music before the bike itself, the song was Coward of the County, pretty sure the guy was wearing chaps as well.

[rastuscat]

I once heard a bikes music before the bike itself, the song was Coward of the County, pretty sure the guy was wearing chaps as well.
I like listening to Paul Henry on the way to work each day.

Hilary is just soooo hot.[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[rastuscat]

I once heard a bikes music before the bike itself, the song was Coward of the County, pretty sure the guy was wearing chaps as well.
My first thought was Harley Ferguson.

Then I realised that they make a lot of noise.

With or without a stereo.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[Maha]

My first thought was Harley Ferguson.

Then I realised that they make a lot of noise.

With or without a stereo.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

It was a Goldwing.

[rastuscat]

It was a Goldwing.
Most days I get people asking me if I can hear the stereo over the road noise and wind flow.

Clearly asked by folk who have never ridden a fully faired bike. The ranch slider on the RT is gold.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

[george formby]

It was a Goldwing.

Had exacary the same experience in Scotland many years ago. Following a winding Lochside road we kept hearing bursts of C & W music. Sure enough we eventually caught up with a beard on a Goldwing having a lovely morning.

[Maha]

Had exacary the same experience in Scotland many years ago. Following a winding Lochside road we kept hearing bursts of C & W music. Sure enough we eventually caught up with a beard on a Goldwing having a lovely morning.

Achy Breaky all the way baby...!

[george formby]

Achy Breaky all the way baby...!

Probably before his time. T'was "Stand by your man" we first heard and if memory serves "Loose wheel" when we caught up.

[Maha]

Probably before his time. T'was "Stand by your man" we first heard and if memory serves "Loose wheel" when we caught up.

Tammy/Kenny etc before Billy, class before arse, like the 70's GL ...before they fully dressed them.

[PistonBlown]

Worked for a haulage company called C&H Hauliers Ltd in the 90's. One driver hit a guy on a motorbike who'd been taking a 'racing' line on a corner . The helmet saved the guys head from injury but unfortunately it was about 20 metres from his body.

[Maha]

The irony of that is, it's the head as a whole that dictates your every aspect and decision on the road...without it, you're fucked.

[eldog]

Worked for a haulage company called C&H Hauliers Ltd in the 90's. One driver hit a guy on a motorbike who'd been taking a 'racing' line on a corner . The helmet saved the guys head from injury but unfortunately it was about 20 metres from his body.

With that in mind, I always try to ride on my side of the road.
I get pissed off with myself when I find I am on the other side.

However, I am trying to improve my skills.... I want to be able to avoid another vehicle when it arrives on my side - as best I can.

[swbarnett]

I've been watching my own riding since this thread started. There are two right-handers on my daily commute where I'm regularly on the center line with most of me and bike over. I say regularly because, of course, any hint of oncoming traffic and I keep well to the left of the line. Visibility in these corners is as good as it's ever going to get (low fence, no trees, sight line across the paddock for at least 100m on either side).

Like any "technique". Done properly it's not a problem.

[pritch]

Was her way of driving... scary

There was a diagram on Twitter this morning, an intersection with three cars. The task was to indicate the order in which the cars should proceed.
Only a small minority had the right idea.

I once did an exercise at work with one of the diagrams from the licence test, at first nobody got it right, and it should have been about 50/50 if they'd been guessing. It wasn't until I got to some of the more senior women, including the manager, that any answered correctly, which I found surprising. When I mentioned this to the manager she laughed and told me that at that stage I was questioning people who were teaching their kids to drive and who therefore were studying the road code.

Be careful, most of the people you are sharing the road with haven't got a bloody clue.

[EJK]

There was a diagram on Twitter this morning, an intersection with three cars. The task was to indicate the order in which the cars should proceed.
Only a small minority had the right idea.

I once did an exercise at work with one of the diagrams from the licence test, at first nobody got it right, and it should have been about 50/50 if they'd been guessing. It wasn't until I got to some of the more senior women, including the manager, that any answered correctly, which I found surprising. When I mentioned this to the manager she laughed and told me that at that stage I was questioning people who were teaching their kids to drive and who therefore were studying the road code.

Be careful, most of the people you are sharing the road with haven't got a bloody clue.

But.... but... it's the tourists killing us Kiwi drivers! Ban them! :mad:

[Maha]

With that in mind, I always try to ride on my side of the road.
I get pissed off with myself when I find I am on the other side.

However, I am trying to improve my skills.... I want to be able to avoid another vehicle when it arrives on my side - as best I can.

It's where you place yourself on the road (particularly through a corner as per the thread topic) that counts. I followed a mate for a day's riding about eight years ago, his lines were outstanding and noticeably different than the track I was using at that time. I started using his lines early on that day and noticed almost instantly that a faster/smoother corner speed was achievable. Riding a bike seemed different/better with way less 'oh bugger' moments. Thank you John Baine.

There is only so much an instructor can teach to a group at any one time, nothing can compare to one on one tuition for the ultimate outcome.

The Photo below, though posted earlier, clearly demonstrates the way NOT to corner on a motorcycle.


https://www.facebook.com/248330508672335/photos/a.248340555337997.1073741828.248330508672335/517690838402966/?type=3&theater

[nzspokes]

Sounds to me like you were riding under pressure to keeep up. There was a story in the media last year that 3 riders all crashed off the road on Gebbies Pass and that would happen due to either pressure to keep up or following the same line. You are putting you life in the hands of the lead rider and if he screws up and dies you will too most likely.

Keep.

Learn to spell.

[OddDuck]

Went (late) to the Polished Rockers show, took the Paekakariki Hill road over. The number of bikes coming the other way leaning over into my lane was just ridiculous... seriously at least a third of the riders didn't seem to know how to take a tight corner without projecting.

[Maha]

Sounds to me like you were riding under pressure to keeep up. There was a story in the media last year that 3 riders all crashed off the road on Gebbies Pass and that would happen due to either pressure to keep up or following the same line. You are putting you life in the hands of the lead rider and if he screws up and dies you will too most likely.

Point 1: I have NEVER ridden under pressure.
Point 2: I have NEVER felt the need to keep.
Point 3: My point was, that I learnt something that day, it improved a part of my riding that obviously needed improving on.

I do however, know of a situation where a returning rider, tried to keep up with some quicker riders, and lost a leg a few kms later, he also lost his life that day.

You seem to fail with the concept that people can learn from others, good or bad.

[Moi]

I've been watching my own riding since this thread started. There are two right-handers on my daily commute where I'm regularly on the center line with most of me and bike over. I say regularly because, of course, any hint of oncoming traffic and I keep well to the left of the line. Visibility in these corners is as good as it's ever going to get (low fence, no trees, sight line across the paddock for at least 100m on either side).

Like any "technique". Done properly it's not a problem.

You'd be one of those "thinking riders"...


shame a few more on the roads, whether riders or drivers, didn't try this "thinking" stuff...

[Moi]

There was a diagram on Twitter this morning, an intersection with three cars. The task was to indicate the order in which the cars should proceed.
Only a small minority had the right idea...

Any change to copy and paste that diagram on here?

[5ive]

Remember kids, no more than two motorcycles on the same road at the same time, or we'll all die...

[Maha]

3 riders that went off the road on Gebbies Pass which could have resulted in just following the same line and not necessarily riding under pressure to keep up.

The smarter rider would recognising fault before following.

[swbarnett]

The safest way to ride in my opinion is to ride your own line and keep an eye out on all hazards and the lead rider could end up being one of them too.
While true there is a strong caveat to this. How the H.E.Double Toothpicks is a learner* supposed to learn good lines if not from another rider? All that is required is to keep enough of a gap so that if the lead rider gets into trouble it's obvious to even the absolute novice that this time taking the same line (or any line at all) is not a good idea.





*That's all of us in one way or another.

[Gremlin]

While true there is a strong caveat to this. How the H.E.Double Toothpicks is a learner* supposed to learn good lines if not from another rider?
Ideally a learner is getting professional instruction / attending some courses and gaining this information...

[swbarnett]

Ideally a learner is getting professional instruction / attending some courses and gaining this information...
Ideally yes. But professional tuition can only go so far. Hopefully though, this will teach a rider to not just blindly follow the lines of the rider in front.

[rastuscat]

While true there is a strong caveat to this. How the H.E.Double Toothpicks is a learner* supposed to learn good lines if not from another rider?

The problems are compression and target fixation.

When you are following someone, instead of looking through corners, theres a tendency to get fixated on the rider ahead. It's easy to creep up on them too, as your fixation draws you in.

We coach people to look through corners, and make sure you have the rider ahead of you in your peripheral vision, not your central vision. That way you can stay focussed on the limit point, yet still see the rider ahead.

It's worthy of proper coaching to mention these things before you start leading a newbie out to show them the way to ride.

[Drew]

While the term "good line" may be something that applies to the track the only "good line" that "generally" applies to the road is not going off the road or crossing the centre line. I did not have to be taught that, however I would need a lesson if I wished to race on the track.

That's not the case. Turn in point and line are important for maximum control and safety margin are still important on the road. It's not the same as the fastest line of course, but it matters.

[swbarnett]

The problems are compression and target fixation.

When you are following someone, instead of looking through corners, theres a tendency to get fixated on the rider ahead. It's easy to creep up on them too, as your fixation draws you in.

We coach people to look through corners, and make sure you have the rider ahead of you in your peripheral vision, not your central vision. That way you can stay focussed on the limit point, yet still see the rider ahead.

It's worthy of proper coaching to mention these things before you start leading a newbie out to show them the way to ride.
Agreed. Still, as long as you keep your distance and concentrate primarily on getting around the corner I don't see a problem with observing from behind how someone else does it.

[Maha]

Agreed. Still, as long as you keep your distance and concentrate primarily on getting around the corner I don't see a problem with observing from behind how someone else does it.

Worked for me, and has worked for others since, a number of newer riders brushed up on their cornering technique on those those Northland rides doing exactly that.

[trufflebutter]

Also maybe new riders should be allowed to develop confidence riding on their own before tackling group rides.

Because there is a lot more to think about (following distance/sight/road position/other riders overtaking you to name a few) when riding in group right? In saying that, there also can be a lot gained from riding in a group situation for newer riders, such as the bracketed points above.

If a group ride is done well and everyone in the group taken into consideration then I don't see why not.
Trouble is though, some newer riders can to be all to keen to become advance riders and not looking like twats in their own mind and, that's when things can come unstuck.

[trufflebutter]

One issue that has not been touched on is that most group riders visit pubs on their rides and once alcohol has been consumed the ride can end up being more dangerous irrespective of riding ability.

True enough but ...Pubs and Taverns are a better suited to feed and accommodate a group of 20+ riders comfortably, rather than a four tabled cafe.

[AllanB]

Shit I'd not want to be learning following most of the riders on the GP. Vast amount follow cars way to closely (also guilty at times).

[Drew]

One issue that has not been touched on is that most group riders visit pubs on their rides and once alcohol has been consumed the ride can end up being more dangerous irrespective of riding ability.

Mu'fuckers are meant to be adults. Someone can't handle their shit, it's their problem.

[eldog]

It's where you place yourself on the road (particularly through a corner as per the thread topic) that counts. I followed a mate for a day's riding about eight years ago, his lines were outstanding and noticeably different than the track I was using at that time. I started using his lines early on that day and noticed almost instantly that a faster/smoother corner speed was achievable. Riding a bike seemed different/better with way less 'oh bugger' moments. Thank you John Baine.

There is only so much an instructor can teach to a group at any one time, nothing can compare to one on one tuition for the ultimate outcome.

The Photo below, though posted earlier, clearly demonstrates the way NOT to corner on a motorcycle.


https://www.facebook.com/248330508672335/photos/a.248340555337997.1073741828.248330508672335/517690838402966/?type=3&theater

Yep, I find myself doing that on the odd occasion(pissed off), just trying to correct that myself.

Recently I tried to ride wide close 0.5m to the centre line on a left hand blind tight turn. There was a bus coming the other way cutting across the centreline. Exact opposite to FB pic.

Being able to change lines quickly mid corner is a skill I have yet to learn.

Slowly getting confidence in my riding so I can ride wider and move in once I can see around the corner proper.

[eldog]

Worked for me, and has worked for others since, a number of newer riders brushed up on their cornering technique on those those Northland rides doing exactly that.

Its something I have been trying, but practise time is limited.

[eldog]

That's not the case. Turn in point and line are important for maximum control and safety margin are still important on the road. It's not the same as the fastest line of course, but it matters.


Turn in point and line are important for maximum control and safety margin.
I don't seem to have a turn in point, just seem to 'me' long arcs.

I will ask someone (experienced) who follows me next time if I do have a turn in point and what they think of my riding position etc

I don't need race speed, want better control=better position on road=confidence

[eldog]

I've been watching my own riding.
Like any "technique". Done properly it's not a problem.

I have seen you go passed me a few times while I was parked up on the SW motorway.
Your technique looks good.
Just watch out for those idiot car drivers in front-they can change lanes any moment...

[AllanB]

Mu'fuckers are meant to be adults. Someone can't handle their shit, it's their problem.

What Drew said. Cotton wool society.

If the hipsters are riding just to look cool then .........

[Drew]

Turn in point and line are important for maximum control and safety margin.
I don't seem to have a turn in point, just seem to 'me' long arcs.

I will ask someone (experienced) who follows me next time if I do have a turn in point and what they think of my riding position etc

I don't need race speed, want better control=better position on road=confidence

At some point the arc has to start. At that point the brakes get let go, the throttle picked up, and the bike leaned over.

[PistonBlown]

One issue that has not been touched on is that most group riders visit pubs on their rides and once alcohol has been consumed the ride can end up being more dangerous irrespective of riding ability.

That's the problem around here. The Old Leithfield Hotel is a popular destination for group rides and drives on a Sunday and unfortunately some of the riding/driving I've seen when they leave hasn't been that flash. Few months ago there were a some boy racer cars down there including a metallic blue saloon with a bucket for an exhaust. When they left they were wheel spinning, etc. On Monday when I went to work in Christchurch the blue one was trashed on the grass central reservation of SH1 just before the Waimak Bridge. I hope the driver was ok but I was also surprised they had made it that far after the driving I'd seen on the Sunday.

[Katman]

Mu'fuckers are meant to be adults. Someone can't handle their shit, it's their problem.

Trouble starts when them not handling their shit becomes someone else's shit.

[scumdog]

One issue that has not been touched on is that most group riders visit pubs on their rides and once alcohol has been consumed the ride can end up being more dangerous irrespective of riding ability.

You speak the truth grasshopper!:niceone:

Too often I've seen/heard at the pub: "Right, when we've finished this jug we'll head onto the rally, no racing mind, just cruise there eh" -"Yep" "OK" "Sure" "Sweet" go the others.

Five minutes later and it's like the Isle of Mann TT, zoom-zoom-zoom.

'Cruising' my arse!:crazy:

[Drew]

I bet just like being under pressure to keep up some group riders would feel under pressure to drink up too.

So tell them not to be a hero, and go about your business.

Fuck sakes. We're all responsible for our own actions.

[eldog]

I bet just like being under pressure to keep up some group riders would feel under pressure to drink up too.


Time to front up to one of those group rides you know so much about. And tell them were its at.

Scumdog there's no way we would cruise yr arse

[AllanB]

So tell them not to be a hero, and go about your business.

Fuck sakes. We're all responsible for our own actions.

Parenting 101. Takes a few times to learn it though for some. Being a adult and responsible for your own actions and how they affect others is a shit.

[scumdog]

So tell them not to be a hero, and go about your business.

Fuck sakes. We're all responsible for our own actions.

Not in NZ squire - it seems here it's always 'somebody elses' fault.

[AllanB]

Not in NZ squire - it seems here it's always 'somebody elses' fault.

Blame the government ........ standard answer then ask for money.

[nzspokes]

So tell them not to be a hero, and go about your business.

Fuck sakes. We're all responsible for our own actions.

Yerp, guys I ride with would give me a smack if I tried to hop on the bike pissed as i would give them one if they tried.

[swbarnett]

I have seen you go passed me a few times while I was parked up on the SW motorway.
Your technique looks good.
Thanks.


Just watch out for those idiot car drivers in front-they can change lanes any moment...
Indeed. It's one of the things at the forefront of my mind on the motorway (splitting or not).

[Maha]

I agree (damn it) with Drew with his ''We're all responsible for our own actions'' comment. It's been known for me to have a alcoholic drink or two when at a pub on the bike, more often than not it's an RTD because beer makes me piss far too often.

[awayatc]

Trick to surviving on roads is to avoid fuckwiths....

All road using fuckwiths

Fuckwith fellow riders

Your inner self fuckwith......

simple

[pritch]

Trick to surviving on roads is to avoid fuckwiths....

All road using fuckwiths

Fuckwith fellow riders

Your inner self fuckwith......

simple

Perhaps you have an over active auto-complete? Or have possibly developed a lithp? :innocent:

[BrendonF]

I've almost fallen off several K bikes when I turned the bars into a tight turn and they hit the stops way too soon.

The RT is easily better, the GS/GSA is even better again ;) 2up u-turns in about 2 lanes is somewhere near my limit... when you have crowds all looking on and you're hemmed in by barriers you REALLY don't want to mess it up :whistle:

Sorry for the late response. The K bikes are long and have short stops. Takes a few turns in the garage to get it out. You have to remember that the big Ks are for high speed long distance riding. Not potting around town. I've ridden the new water cooled R1200R and that turned on a dime. I started on a old GN 250 which was very light and manoeuvrable, but it's tiny in comparison to a 1200cc 4 cyl bike. The FJR I used to had was way heavy with panniers and a top box all loaded up for long distance trips.