ACC/Pro Rider Silver course

[Old Steve]

Saturday I did the Pro Rider silver course in East Auckland. Well worth the time and money (I paid $50, ACC pays the rest). In the absence of data to date, ACC will be tracking riders completing bronze, silver and gold courses and by year's end hope to have enough data to determine if riders who have completed these courses have a lower accident rate or not. There may be some problem with the size of the population field, there were only 5 riders on the course I did - great for the amount of one-on-one instruction but not conducive to building a large population of trained riders on which to draw conclusions.

But the instructor did show one statistic the ACC has generated that was interesting. We know that motorbike riders comprise approx 3% of the vehicles on the road yet we're 22 times more likely to be injured or killed. But riders wearing hi-viz jackets are 37% less likely to be in an accident, so hi-viz wearing riders are only 14 times more likely to have an accident. This justified to me my stance that if it reduced my likelihood of having an accident by 1/10th of a percent then I'd wear a pink ballet skirt when riding. Luckily for me and those who see me out riding, ACC has no data to support the rate at which wearing a pink tutu reduces accidents, so I'll just continue wearing the fluoro hi-viz.

Highest recommendations for the Pro Rider course. Great instructor, lots of one-on-one instruction, lots of riding, some good low speed instruction, instructor used radio to pass on instructions and advice. Great rides through some roads in the Hunuas that I haven't ridden on before.

[george formby]

+1 on the pro rider courses. I've done silver and gold and thoroughly enjoyed them. I think it's commonly agreed by participants and instructors that those most in need of training are the least likely to do it.

The same may apply to hi viz. Accepting that it may make you more visible and wearing it demonstrates a safety focused attitude. I'm not assuming that hi viz does make you safer as the stats imply. They don't allow for rider attitude.

Not knockin hi viz, like you say, every little helps and it's a small price to pay for potentially greater visibility. A pink tutu? That's a KTM thing.

320858

[nzspokes]

Saturday I did the Pro Rider silver course in East Auckland. Well worth the time and money (I paid $50, ACC pays the rest). In the absence of data to date, ACC will be tracking riders completing bronze, silver and gold courses and by year's end hope to have enough data to determine if riders who have completed these courses have a lower accident rate or not. There may be some problem with the size of the population field, there were only 5 riders on the course I did - great for the amount of one-on-one instruction but not conducive to building a large population of trained riders on which to draw conclusions.

But the instructor did show one statistic the ACC has generated that was interesting. We know that motorbike riders comprise approx 3% of the vehicles on the road yet we're 22 times more likely to be injured or killed. But riders wearing hi-viz jackets are 37% less likely to be in an accident, so hi-viz wearing riders are only 14 times more likely to have an accident. This justified to me my stance that if it reduced my likelihood of having an accident by 1/10th of a percent then I'd wear a pink ballet skirt when riding. Luckily for me and those who see me out riding, ACC has no data to support the rate at which wearing a pink tutu reduces accidents, so I'll just continue wearing the fluoro hi-viz.

Highest recommendations for the Pro Rider course. Great instructor, lots of one-on-one instruction, lots of riding, some good low speed instruction, instructor used radio to pass on instructions and advice. Great rides through some roads in the Hunuas that I haven't ridden on before.
Who was the instructor?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[Old Steve]

Paul Pavletich (spelling ?).

On the matter of lower accident rate with hi-viz, it may well be cause and effect - conservative riders are more likely to wear hi-viz, and as a group they may have lower accident rates.

But as I said about riding a KTM, oops, wearing a pink tutu, if it reduced my chances of having an accident I'd do it.

[Hobbyhorse]

I did the silver course late last year, out west, and found it to be a day well spent.

[george formby]

Paul Pavletich (spelling ?).

On the matter of lower accident rate with hi-viz, it may well be cause and effect - conservative riders are more likely to wear hi-viz, and as a group they may have lower accident rates.

But as I said about riding a KTM, oops, wearing a pink tutu, if it reduced my chances of having an accident I'd do it.

I think your $50 pro rider investment will make you safer than a pink tutu. Have you seen the price of them! My last one, plain white, was a lot more than $50......:facepalm:

[Maha]

Who was the instructor?

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

Is one better than the other?

Sent from a comfy seat at the dinning room table using a keyboard/Monitor combo.

[nzspokes]

Is one better than the other?

Sent from a comfy seat at the dinning room table using a keyboard/Monitor combo.

Obviously some instructors are better than others.

[george formby]

Is one better than the other?

Sent from a comfy seat at the dinning room table using a keyboard/Monitor combo.

They have different experience and teaching styles. This became apparent to me during the Gold course.
I hope your not sat in front of the computer eating your tea. How rude. Unless your home alone waiting for a vid to load up. That's ok.

[george formby]

Obviously some instructors are better than others.

Ditto pupils so it's moot.

[iwilson]

Done bronze and silver for the money it's a no-brainier. But like others have said those who should be on them won't be. Could be an idea to incorporate it into the CBTA to shave a bit more time off as an incentive.

[nzspokes]

Ditto pupils so it's moot.

With one on one you can engage far better with the pupils.

[nzspokes]

Done bronze and silver for the money it's a no-brainier. But like others have said those who should be on them won't be. Could be an idea to incorporate it into the CBTA to shave a bit more time off as an incentive.

You would have had Chris down your ways? He is a good sort.

Fully agree on the those that need it wont go. The "Ive been riding decades so are perfect" type.

[george formby]

Done bronze and silver for the money it's a no-brainier. But like others have said those who should be on them won't be. Could be an idea to incorporate it into the CBTA to shave a bit more time off as an incentive.

Definitely scope for newbies but what about die hard "I've been riding 40 years.........." riders? They're the challenge. I've tried to cajole a couple of mature riders into training and practice, not interested and they would really benefit from it.

[russd7]

have done the gold course and the same course before it was called gold course, well worth the coin but i still won't wear hi vis and don't believe it has any benefit at all.
as has already been said, these courses are only effective if people attend them and what i found and why i did them was because i had become lazy and entrenched some bad habits. even though i knew i had bad habits and knew what most of them were it was still hard being critiqued on my riding on the first course i did.

[Phleep]

I did the Silver one with instructor Andrew Templeton. It was the 8 hour weekend option. Some others at work took his 2 x 4 hour sessions.

I learned that they didn't do the emergency braking component which I thought was invaluable. I would recommend the weekend option over the split because of this.

There are very few opportunities on the road to find the limits of your stopping power.

The course was great and I'll definitely repeat the silver before considering Gold as there were many things I had either forgotten or wasn't aware of since returning to MCs.

[george formby]

have done the gold course and the same course before it was called gold course, well worth the coin but i still won't wear hi vis and don't believe it has any benefit at all.
as has already been said, these courses are only effective if people attend them and what i found and why i did them was because i had become lazy and entrenched some bad habits. even though i knew i had bad habits and knew what most of them were it was still hard being critiqued on my riding on the first course i did.

Has it made a difference to how you ride, for the better?

[DonaldH]

have done the gold course and the same course before it was called gold course, well worth the coin but i still won't wear hi vis and don't believe it has any benefit at all.
as has already been said, these courses are only effective if people attend them and what i found and why i did them was because i had become lazy and entrenched some bad habits. even though i knew i had bad habits and knew what most of them were it was still hard being critiqued on my riding on the first course i did.

There is some research gaining credence that an effect known as motion camouflage may also come into play in "sorry mate, I didn't see you" situations. Interesting article on the subject here http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/index52b6.html?fa=contentGeneric.twhhyjzpxapzkouq&pageId=146841.

Apologies if it is a repost.

[russd7]

There is some research gaining credence that an effect known as motion camouflage may also come into play in "sorry mate, I didn't see you" situations. Interesting article on the subject here http://www.motorcycleinfo.co.uk/index52b6.html?fa=contentGeneric.twhhyjzpxapzkouq&pageId=146841.

Apologies if it is a repost.

well aware of that and if you watch different vids on it those wearing the green/yellow hi vis actually blend in to the background more, best way to avoid this is to swerve in your lane to break away from the background.
another issue i also have with hi vis. every man and his dog is wearing hi vis now so becoming common and non distinguishable

[russd7]

Has it made a difference to how you ride, for the better?

yeah it has, it forced me to concentrate on my riding and road positioning again as i used to and to use my gears more, in the last gold course i did i actually had the instructor telling me to tap the brake pedal just to warn those following i was slowing. it brought me back to a way i used to ride and getting more enjoyment out of it as well.
very easy to drop in to bad habits

[george formby]

yeah it has, it forced me to concentrate on my riding and road positioning again as i used to and to use my gears more, in the last gold course i did i actually had the instructor telling me to tap the brake pedal just to warn those following i was slowing. it brought me back to a way i used to ride and getting more enjoyment out of it as well.
very easy to drop in to bad habits

Cool. Same with me. Observations from the instructor pointing out things I was unaware of.

[Corse1]

All sounds good as I have booked into a silver course in a weeks time. I have noticed hi vis wearing riders "appear" to be more noticeable around town.

[george formby]

All sounds good as I have booked into a silver course in a weeks time. I have noticed hi vis wearing riders "appear" to be more noticeable around town.

$50 a pop, it's the bargain of the century.

That hi viz / cross dressing thing works better on some bikes than others IMHO.

[rastuscat]

I'm running another Ride Forever Course in Christchurch tomorrow. Bronze this time.

It appears that all 4 parities enrolled are progressing their licences through CBTA, so it looks like the discounted time on CBTA is coercing people onto courses.

I don't care. The courses are great, regardless of your motivation for being on them.

[swbarnett]

I have noticed hi vis wearing riders "appear" to be more noticeable around town.
That's likely because you're looking for it. If someone doesn't look they won't see you, hi-vis or not.

[Corse1]

That's likely because you're looking for it. If someone doesn't look they won't see you, hi-vis or not.

Good Point and agreed but it may help the people who just offer a casual glance as they are brighter than some bikes pathetic headlights. Now we are into smaller and smaller percentages of perceived benefit.

[rastuscat]

Funny thing about hi viz, which I support in concept.

If you are following a rider in hi viz through corners it's easy to fixate on that person. Instead of looking through the corner.

Just something to guard from.

[george formby]

Funny thing about hi viz, which I support in concept.

If you are following a rider in hi viz through corners it's easy to fixate on that person. Instead of looking through the corner.

Just something to guard from.

Yup, I've noticed the same, keeps drawing the eye. Those fluoro wheel tapes do the same, bloody hypnotic.

As mentioned above, I think if you ride bikes you tend to look for them regardless and hi viz, obviously, stands out. But I would bet that you would spot them anyway. A riders head poking up above traffic gets my attention. Different mind set.

[WristTwister]

I've been thinking about going to one of these courses, I think they have them in Porirua. I know it's discounted but what is covered that you couldn't learn from normal riding tuition + some research?

[Lelitu]

I've been thinking about going to one of these courses, I think they have them in Porirua. I know it's discounted but what is covered that you couldn't learn from normal riding tuition + some research?

That you truly couldn't learn? nothing. That you probably won't learn without an expensive lesson, heaps.
It's just a fuckton easier to learn with someone watching and pointing out the areas you need to work on.
Also, much faster to learn. Well and truly worth the cash.

This thread reminds me I should really make a day and book the silver myself.
Did the bronze when it first came out.

[Phleep]

I've been thinking about going to one of these courses, I think they have them in Porirua. I know it's discounted but what is covered that you couldn't learn from normal riding tuition + some research?

You probably saw the j'ville one in the Porirua railway station carpark since that is where the emergency braking and maneuvering is taken. Surely the value beyond just doing self training is it stops you from subconciously avoiding the topics you struggle with. You also get to see others struggle as well which makes you assess youself again.

[MarkW]

I've long since retired as a motorcycle riding instructor - going on an approved training course is unlikely to do any harm. The main advantages are that an instructor (and yes, some are better than others) will be focusing on YOUR riding for at least part of the course and because of this can spot things (habits, traits or whatever) that a rider may not even be aware that they are doing. And can ask "why are you doing that?" or "have you thought about trying this instead of what you are currently doing?".

A good instructor will be trying to work on the skills level of every student - not necessarily by saying you MUST do this or that but by making suggestions that will assist the rider to improve.

I've been riding for quite a while, done a few more kilometres than many and instructed for a number of years. Last year I organised a Gold course for myself and three friends in Whangarei. Which was the first proper course that I had attended as a STUDENT since 1984.
I wanted an instructor to have a look at what I was doing on the motorcycle and to, if appropriate, ask "why on earth are you doing that?". My objective was achieved and a couple of small refinements added, a day of good riding on entertaining roads and a bargain with the ACC subsidy.

I certainly don't know it all and am happy to receive suggestions that make me think more about what I do on a motorcycle. And it was great to be a pupil rather than the one in charge of the course.

If training doesn't work then why do we have kindergartens, primary schools, secondary schools and tertiary institutions? Think how much money we could save if we shut all of these places down!

Good motorcycle riding training can make your riding much more pleasurable and may even save you from an accident. But no improvement or saving will ever be possible if the rider doesn't ever want to learn or improve.

[BuzzardNZ]

I've been thinking about going to one of these courses, I think they have them in Porirua. I know it's discounted but what is covered that you couldn't learn from normal riding tuition + some research?

how to apply for a payment card at WINZ perhaps?

[Jin]

Did the bronze and enjoyed it. Silver not so much. Instructor not so good.

[russd7]

I'm running another Ride Forever Course in Christchurch tomorrow. Bronze this time.

It appears that all 4 parities enrolled are progressing their licences through CBTA, so it looks like the discounted time on CBTA is coercing people onto courses.

I don't care. The courses are great, regardless of your motivation for being on them.
first course i did was with Dan, i left that course with a lot to think about and start working on.
i did both courses on the ZZR and on the last course i did there was a lady on a ZZR and after the course every thing she was saying about having trouble with is exactly what i was saying after the first one i did.
just gotta use the gears more and stop being lazy.
must say i no longer hug the centre line when apexing the corner.
made me think about the stuff i already knew but was ignoring.

keep it up

[WristTwister]

These courses are a bit of a mystery to be honest, what is the course outline, what is covered in each course that makes one bronze and one silver? Is there anything particularly special about what they cover?

If I wanted to work on a technique, how do I know it will be covered in a course? If this wasn't subsidised I wouldn't pay the full price if I don't know in advance exactly what I'm getting out of it. At least with a paid tuition session I can specify what I want to work on and get one on one attention.

[russd7]

These courses are a bit of a mystery to be honest, what is the course outline, what is covered in each course that makes one bronze and one silver? Is there anything particularly special about what they cover?

If I wanted to work on a technique, how do I know it will be covered in a course? If this wasn't subsidised I wouldn't pay the full price if I don't know in advance exactly what I'm getting out of it. At least with a paid tuition session I can specify what I want to work on and get one on one attention.

you can tell them what it is you feel you need help with on the gold course, unsure about the bronze and silver tho.
$50.00 for eight hours tuition is dirt cheap and if you don't get something out of it then you probably went in with the wrong attitude, if you believe you know everything there is to know about motorcycling on the road then you will get nothing out of it.
sometimes it is good to do these types of courses just to get you thinking about what you already know, and who knows, ya might even just learn something new

[rastuscat]

you can tell them what it is you feel you need help with on the gold course, unsure about the bronze and silver tho.
$50.00 for eight hours tuition is dirt cheap and if you don't get something out of it then you probably went in with the wrong attitude, if you believe you know everything there is to know about motorcycling on the road then you will get nothing out of it.
sometimes it is good to do these types of courses just to get you thinking about what you already know, and who knows, ya might even just learn something new

The Bronze Course is structured toward the things needed to pass the CBTA 6R practical test. It covers other stuff too, but it's structured that way.

The Silver Course is structured toward the things needed to pass the CBTA 6F practical test. It covers other stuff too, but it's structured that way.

The Gold course tends to be structured around the needs of those who turn up on the day. It has no direct link to the CBTA system.

In general, courses cover cornering, braking, protective gear, pre ride checks, awareness, anticipation, lots of the soft skills that make riding both safer and more enjoyable.

If you get a good instructor it makes all the difference. Some people are shit-hot riders but poor instructors. I'm personally a very good instructor, but an average rider. I'm not the guy to teach you about lean angle on off camber corners at 180 kmh. I'm more your Road Craft kind of guy. It's like that with instructors, each of us has different backgrounds, so different focuses.

Sorry to be so factual. It's dull. But factual.

Donuts.

[russd7]

Donuts.
yes please, with fresh cream and strawberry jam

[george formby]

yes please, with fresh cream and strawberry jam

Heh. I did my Gold course with a man of the cloth, blue. One of our party could not resist donut jokes. Didn't go down that well.

Can't be bothered scrolling back but the person asking for course details and comparisons, I suggest you get in touch with pro rider. Very helpful folk.
Non of the courses I have attended have had more than 4 riders so lots of scope to focus on each rider. IIRC we were asked to list 3 things we individually wanted to focus on when we planned the gold course. On the day our instructor addressed our requests in a class room environment, one on one, and continued to do so for the rest of the day on the road. The instructor is a full time popo, sacrificed his Sunday off to look after us numptys and had done his homework. Exceptional training IMHO.

Something else that cropped up during our riding was the odd stop to highlight information left on the road. I thought my road craft was pretty good but our instructor pointed out stuff like the shading of white lines on corners which indicated people frequently crossing the centre line and some other gems. Most impressed I was. And knackered, it was a big day.

[rastuscat]

Heh. I did my Gold course with a man of the cloth, blue. One of our party could not resist donut jokes. Didn't go down that well.

Can't be bothered scrolling back but the person asking for course details and comparisons, I suggest you get in touch with pro rider. Very helpful folk.
Non of the courses I have attended have had more than 4 riders so lots of scope to focus on each rider. IIRC we were asked to list 3 things we individually wanted to focus on when we planned the gold course. On the day our instructor addressed our requests in a class room environment, one on one, and continued to do so for the rest of the day on the road. The instructor is a full time popo, sacrificed his Sunday off to look after us numptys and had done his homework. Exceptional training IMHO.

Something else that cropped up during our riding was the odd stop to highlight information left on the road. I thought my road craft was pretty good but our instructor pointed out stuff like the shading of white lines on corners which indicated people frequently crossing the centre line and some other gems. Most impressed I was. And knackered, it was a big day.

Laugh. He sacrificed his Sunday. Nah, he got paid to do it.

Was it Greg Thomas? He was the best instructor Police ever had. Trials background, and an amazing ability to deliver information.

[george formby]

Laugh. He sacrificed his Sunday. Nah, he got paid to do it.

Was it Greg Thomas? He was the best instructor Police ever had. Trials background, and an amazing ability to deliver information.

Ha, yeah, I know he got paid but still, a sacrifice IMHO. He could have been out hooning with his mates. To be fair it turned into a brisk afternoon.

Chaps name is Lance and he totally reinforced my respect for professional riders and teachers. Surname escapes me, sorry.

[rastuscat]

Ha, yeah, I know he got paid but still, a sacrifice IMHO. He could have been out hooning with his mates. To be fair it turned into a brisk afternoon.

Chaps name is Lance and he totally reinforced my respect for professional riders and teachers. Surname escapes me, sorry.

Lance Goulsbro. He was my Sergeant on the North Shore Traffic Unit back in the day.

Good bugger.

[george formby]

Lance Goulsbro. He was my Sergeant on the North Shore Traffic Unit back in the day.

Good bugger.

That rings a bell. Spends a lot of time in a burnt orange hot rod nowadays, I believe

[Blackbird]

Lance Goulsbro. He was my Sergeant on the North Shore Traffic Unit back in the day.

Good bugger.

Sure is - great guy. He's also the IAM Northland Examiner.

[george formby]

Sure is - great guy. He's also the IAM Northland Examiner.

I never knew that. Hmmmmmmm. I may look a bit further into IAM up here.

[russd7]

Sure is - great guy. He's also the IAM Northland Examiner.

oohh crap, you mentioned that pet food again, cassina will be along in just a jiffy to extol the virtues of not being pet food trained:2thumbsup

[Blackbird]

Geez, what was I thinking?? A thousand apologies :rolleyes:
oohh crap, you mentioned that pet food again, cassina will be along in just a jiffy to extol the virtues of not being pet food trained:2thumbsup

[Maha]

oohh crap, you mentioned that pet food again, cassina will be along in just a jiffy to extol the virtues of not being pet food trained:2thumbsup

A jiffy is equal to the time it takes light to travel one centimeter in a vacuum, approximately 33.3564 picoseconds, seems his/her time has lapsed.

[george formby]

Geez, what was I thinking?? A thousand apologies :rolleyes:

Awwww C'mon. It's not like the thread lacks in obtuse posts so far. Your a Chief pet food dispenser, fearless of trolls.

[Blackbird]

Awwww C'mon. It's not like the thread lacks in obtuse posts so far. Your a Chief pet food dispenser, fearless of trolls.

Too kind :yes: Fearless of trolls yes, fearful of my sanity with plonkers, most definitely :facepalm:

[Moi]

... You're a Chief pet food dispenser, fearless of trolls.

I'm sure Annie would also agree... :woohoo:

[Blackbird]

I'm sure Annie would also agree... :woohoo:

Provider of kawhai and snapper (trimmings only) to the fur kids Mark :rolleyes:

[Old Steve]

A jiffy is equal to the time it takes light to travel one centimeter in a vacuum, approximately 33.3564 picoseconds, seems his/her time has lapsed.

And did you know that a "shake" is 10 nanoseconds.

This informal unit was developed by the Manhatten scientists during WWII from the expression "two shakes of a lambs tail" as 10 nano seconds was a very convenient unit of time when describing the workings of an atomic bomb explosion.

Back to the subject, one thing our instructor emphasised was to fade left coming up to the brow of a hill - he said you never knew when a 4WD towing a boat was coming unseen up the other side and some stupid motorist was trying to pass it. Being on the left hand side of your side of the road gave you just that little extra space and time to avoid an accident. Maybe you'd gain a couple of hundred shakes :laugh:

[rastuscat]

Back to the subject, one thing our instructor emphasised was to fade left coming up to the brow of a hill - he said you never knew when a 4WD towing a boat was coming unseen up the other side and some stupid motorist was trying to pass it. Being on the left hand side of your side of the road gave you just that little extra space and time to avoid an accident. Maybe you'd gain a couple of hundred shakes :laugh:

Sound advice that.

From time to time I get someone asking me where the best position on the roadway is. Right? Left? Centre?

There's no easy answer, as it entirely depends on what the riding environment dictates. Actively managing your lateral position in response to your cumulative risk assessment is the key.

Basically I simplify it and talk about the left hand wheel track and the right hand wheel track. That keeps me away from the risks of extremity ie the centre line, and the edge of the road.

And I manage my position to balance out the needs of visibility, conspicuity, buffering and the need to gain a better view of the scantily clad busty blonde on the footpath.

The crest of the hill is a great place to give yourself space.

[Ulsterkiwi]

....the need to gain a better view of the scantily clad busty blonde on the footpath......

the old environmental headcheck eh? "I wasnt perving officer, I was scanning for hazards...."

[Old Steve]

I ride 35 km to and from work every day, almost all on the m/way. When entering the m/way, I quickly move across into the right hand lane so I only have idiot cagers to worry about on one side (the left) of me. However I've been startled a couple of times by lane splitters (definition, sports bike, rider wearing jandals, shorts, no gloves, shooting between the 100 km/hr traffic at about 130 km/hr). So I now regularly fade to the left hand wheel track and take a glance in my left hand mirror so I can see back along the gap to the left of my lane, keeping an eye out for oncoming lane splitters.

[rambaldi]

Sound advice that.

From time to time I get someone asking me where the best position on the roadway is. Right? Left? Centre?

There's no easy answer, as it entirely depends on what the riding environment dictates. Actively managing your lateral position in response to your cumulative risk assessment is the key.

Basically I simplify it and talk about the left hand wheel track and the right hand wheel track. That keeps me away from the risks of extremity ie the centre line, and the edge of the road.

And I manage my position to balance out the needs of visibility, conspicuity, buffering and the need to gain a better view of the scantily clad busty blonde on the footpath.

The crest of the hill is a great place to give yourself space.

I have been meaning to ask you about that. Particularly what are your suggestions when it comes to multilane motorway positioning. What are the things you are considering? Usually corner visibility isn't a big issue so you don't need to keep out wide there but what are you thinking about?

Motorway riding was something I found missing from the Bronze course. Aside from a little chat about the legalities or grey area surrounding lane splitting, and to do it between the lanes furthest from the on-ramps. At least in Auckland you see so many riders commuting via the big roads and I felt part of the prescribed course should talk about them.

[Old Steve]

I have been meaning to ask you about that. Particularly what are your suggestions when it comes to multilane motorway positioning. What are the things you are considering? Usually corner visibility isn't a big issue so you don't need to keep out wide there but what are you thinking about?

Right hand wheel line in the right hand lane, I get out there as soon as I can. I move over in the lane to the right hand wheel line every now and then to look back down the inside of the lane.

Coming home over the Bridge from the south, because I get off at the first exit, I get into the left hand lane for the Westhaven and Bridge parts of the m/way as soon as I can coming through Spaghetti Junction. That way I've only got to worry anout idiots in cars on one side of me and any cars entering the m/way from Wellington St or Currin St are pretty visible.

I wear a white helmet and fluoro yellow hi-viz vest. So I'm doing my best to stay rubber down and away from contact with anything harder than my body.

[rastuscat]

I have been meaning to ask you about that. Particularly what are your suggestions when it comes to multilane motorway positioning.

We don't really have a real motorway down here.

I lived in Auckland for 20 some years, but I've managed to avoid the place since 2003. I consider that to be my greatest effort at hazard avoidance, right there.

In regard to positioning on multi lanes, we have a few multi lane arterials here. I suggest to people that they consider motorists blind spots, and ride to stay out of them. Even at 60 kmh on a 60 kmh road, it's worth considering if the car ahead and to your right can see you in their mirror, should they bother to look.

I also usually suggest motorcycling naked. People will almost always see you if you are naked. Wearing a helmet, of course, I don't want to suggest doing anything dangerous.

[Corse1]

Did a silver course yesterday. Learnt a few tips that were valuable but learning how to wave cars past you at 90kph was not one of them. That aside it was well worth the subsidised $50 fee. I will consider a golf course now.

I think as riders it is easy to become complacent as far as identifying and assessing obstacles as you ride. These courses can bring you back down to earth so you actually practice what you already new.


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[Corse1]

Of course that was supposed to be GOLD course even though I am partial to the odd afternoon of smacking the little white ball around.


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[swbarnett]

Right hand wheel line in the right hand lane, I get out there as soon as I can.
I always keep to the left wheel track in the right lane (debris and road surface not withstanding). That way I have an easier escape route if the car in front stops suddenly and the one behind can't stop in time. Also you're more visible to those in the lane to your left, less chance of someone assuming there's a gap that they can move in to.

In the left lane I'm in the right wheel track for the same reasons. In the center lane it depends on where the traffic around me is sitting.

lanes 1a and 2a are a different matter entirely...

[rambaldi]

We don't really have a real motorway down here.

I lived in Auckland for 20 some years, but I've managed to avoid the place since 2003. I consider that to be my greatest effort at hazard avoidance, right there.

In regard to positioning on multi lanes, we have a few multi lane arterials here. I suggest to people that they consider motorists blind spots, and ride to stay out of them. Even at 60 kmh on a 60 kmh road, it's worth considering if the car ahead and to your right can see you in their mirror, should they bother to look.

I also usually suggest motorcycling naked. People will almost always see you if you are naked. Wearing a helmet, of course, I don't want to suggest doing anything dangerous.

I ride a naked, does that count? Or do I need to go all the way and get my bits out?

[george formby]

I ride a naked, does that count? Or do I need to go all the way and get my bits out?

That gives me an idea. I think Pro rider should pull all their attendees together, no, wait. Get all their attendees together for a pink tutu rider safety and awareness campaign. I would be happy to boil my white tutu with beetroot, I'm eco, and you could wear Scottish underpants beneath your tutu. Win win.

[Old Steve]

That gives me an idea. I think Pro rider should pull all their attendees together, no, wait. Get all their attendees together for a pink tutu rider safety and awareness campaign. I would be happy to boil my white tutu with beetroot, I'm eco, and you could wear Scottish underpants beneath your tutu. Win win.

Which raises the question, what's worn beneath Old Steve'a tutu?

Nothings worn, it's as good as it ever was!

[george formby]

Which raises the question, what's worn beneath Old Steve'a tutu?

Nothings worn, it's as good as it ever was!

Regular fluid and filter changes. Very important.

[Bass]

Nothings worn, it's as good as it ever was!

That must be disappointing - commiserations.







:lol:

[Old Steve]

Something that the instructor told us on the silver course I did. From ACC stats, based on the number of motorbikes registered and the number of accidents they have, motor bike riders have 22 times the accident rate of other vehicles.

But, those wearing a hi-viz vest are 37% less likely to have an accident.

Do what you like, but the hi-viz will always be part of my motorcycling gear.

[swbarnett]

Something that the instructor told us on the silver course I did. From ACC stats, based on the number of motorbikes registered and the number of accidents they have, motor bike riders have 22 times the accident rate of other vehicles.

But, those wearing a hi-viz vest are 37% less likely to have an accident.

Do what you like, but the hi-viz will always be part of my motorcycling gear.
Correlation does not mean causation.

It is likely that, statistically, those that wear hi-vis are already safer riders than those that don't on a population basis. This will bias any study on hi-vis wearing to show an apparent causality where there likely is none.

[Bass]

Correlation does not mean causation.

It is likely that, statistically, those that wear hi-vis are already safer riders than those that don't on a population basis.

Agreed and if there is a 37% difference between the 2 groups, given the very high proportion ( and growing it seems) of motorcycle accidents that are single vehicle events, then it is almost certain that hi viz cannot be the sole reason for the difference.



This will bias any study on hi-vis wearing to show an apparent causality where there likely is none.

Maybe, but maybe not too. It's a big assumption to totally write off high viz. I haven't seen many studies but what I have read is split on this one.

[swbarnett]

It's a big assumption to totally write off high viz. I haven't seen many studies but what I have read is split on this one.
Agreed. I don't write off hi-viz because of the studies (or rather what I think of them). I write off hi-viz because of how often car drivers don't see fire engines and trains. Also, I don't want to wear something that has the potential to lull me into a false sense of security.

[Maha]

Agreed. I don't write off hi-viz because of the studies (or rather what I think of them). I write off hi-viz because of how often car drivers don't see fire engines and trains. Also, I don't want to wear something that has the potential to lull me into a false sense of security.

So that's the last we'll see of that Elmo Onesy?

[swbarnett]

So that's the last we'll see of that Elmo Onesy?
Say what?

I must be missing something.

[nzspokes]

Agreed and if there is a 37% difference between the 2 groups, given the very high proportion ( and growing it seems) of motorcycle accidents that are single vehicle events, then it is almost certain that hi viz cannot be the sole reason for the difference.




Maybe, but maybe not too. It's a big assumption to totally write off high viz. I haven't seen many studies but what I have read is split on this one.

Wonder how many wear hiviz because they are scared of their own shadows and only ride from time to time?

[Racing Dave]

Also, I don't want to wear something that has the potential to lull me into a false sense of security.

Or riding with your headlight on in daytime, for example...

[eldog]

Or riding with your headlight on in daytime, for example...

OR a helmet. Gloves. Boots combo

[eldog]

Wonder how many wear hiviz because they are scared of their own shadows and only ride from time to time?

That's me.:weep:
OK I try to ride once a month or two

I don't qualify for the course. Too slow

[Richard Mc F]

Yeah nah.............that correlation could be more to do with rider demographic, squids, harley wanna be and un skilled hipsters (to name but a few) won't be seen dead in it.

Commuters and the supposed more sensible/mature/scared of their own shadow (to name but a few) will wear it

Easy be your 37% right there.

I don't but that is because I am indecisive as to what riding tribe I should align with

Or maybe I don't give a fuck

Indecisive :devil2:

[swbarnett]

Or riding with your headlight on in daytime, for example...
Agreed. For most of my riding career I rode without my headlight on in daylight. I only started riding with it on when I bought a bike without a light switch. Can't say I noticed any difference.

At least you can ignore your headlight. You don't get a constant reminder of it every time you get on the bike.

[swbarnett]

OR a helmet. Gloves. Boots combo
At least with them there is some proven benefit that's more than statistical.

[eldog]

At least with them there is some proven benefit that's more than statistical.
No disagreement there.

I wear a Hi Vis, but I usually leave if undone as it causes a flutter when riding (Unless it's freezing)
More noticeable than a HiVis only

patched members don't wear HiVis - they are bullet proof

but its your safety, do as much as you want.

[rastuscat]

Guessing it's been said before.

Those likely to wear a hi viz vest are those with a "safer" mentality.

Which means they are likely to be safer even without the vest.

It's a bit like the ACC courses. Those who attend are all there because they want to be. Which means they have a safety mentality, and are less likely to actually need the course.

Self defeating, really.

[Bass]

Also, I don't want to wear something that has the potential to lull me into a false sense of security.
I really don't get this.
I have spoken to several people about it and the UNIVERSAL response is that it's just a bit of cloth, not a suit of armour. They use it accordingly, mostly with no idea whether it does any good or not.
I've never met anyone who was lulled into anything by it. I guess it's the "not knowing" that makes it so.

A couple of points:-

Some of these vests have really good reflectors on them. I have been told that the Missus on the back lights up like the airport when in the headlights - no missing us from behind at night. This is also true of some other riding gear of course.

If a person is of the mindset that a bit of brightly coloured cloth imparts a false sense of security, should they be on a bike? It seems to me that a healthy dose of skepticism is an essential motorcycling survival tool. IMHO, the moment you are sure that the car won't pull out on you is the moment you should update your funeral insurance.

This is a shot at the idea, not the person by the way.


Aw what the hell; it's not worth any further discussion. This is a debate that has been done to death many times. It's probably eligible for national super.

[nzspokes]

Self defeating, really.

Exactly, which is why the the ACC scheme is utterly pointless.

[Bass]

Exactly, which is why the the ACC scheme is utterly pointless.

Not at all. This group have less accidents, not none. They know they have room to improve.

[Old Steve]

Wonder how many wear hiviz because they are scared of their own shadows and only ride from time to time?

I ride about 200 + days a year, do a 70 km commute to and from work, plus take as many weekend rides as I can fit in. And I wear hi-viz from personal choice. I don't force anyone else to wear it as well, that's your choice. But I don't wear it because I'm scared to ride my bike or my shadow.

You choose what you wear, it's no concern of mine and I won't denigrate you for what you choose to wear. Just wish you had the same respect for those who choose to dress differently to you when they ride their bikes. Disappointed in you spokes.

[rastuscat]

Exactly, which is why the the ACC scheme is utterly pointless.

Entirely disagree.

Haters are going to hate.

Ask most folk who have attended.

But then, this is KB. Reality means little.

[rastuscat]

Basically here's my take on the hi viz thing.

I believe that being visible is more about positioning than the colour of your jacket or whether you ride with your headlight on.

People don't wake up in this country, look in their bathroom mirror and say "I'm gonna get me a motorcyclist today."

They nail us because they make fundamental human errors. From which we are not exempt, I might add.

As a rule, if people see us, they are less likely to kill us.

Headlights, positioning and how conspicuous we appear (e.g. hi viz) are key to not falling victim to those fundamental human errors.

Charlie Lambs research on conspicuity is gold.

Sometimes I wear hi viz, sometimes not. I did yesterday on the scooter, I will again today. Tomorrow? Maybe.

[rastuscat]

Not at all. They know they have room to improve.

And there is the crux of the issue.

Those who think they have nothing to improve on are the ones who are the greatest risk.

How's that for an inverse relationship?

[Maha]

I ride about 200 + days a year, do a 70 km commute to and from work, plus take as many weekend rides as I can fit in. And I wear hi-viz from personal choice. I don't force anyone else to wear it as well, that's your choice. But I don't wear it because I'm scared to ride my bike or my shadow.

You choose what you wear, it's no concern of mine and I won't denigrate you for what you choose to wear. Just wish you had the same respect for those who choose to dress differently to you when they ride their bikes. Disappointed in you spokes.

The whole issue on Hi Viz is when France made them mandatory to wear is that NZ could follow... that's when the argument for and against started.
A lot do wear them and good on them, it's their choice. They also ride the bike of their choice on the tyres of their choice wearing a helmet of their choice and any amount of protective gear of their choice while riding at a speed of their choice...I would suggest that spokes does all of the above excluding the hi viz bit.

[Black Knight]

I live on the infamous Back Road To Russell and used to wear nearly all black,had a few close calls with oncoming drivers playing SMIDSY-A mate gave me a leather jacket with red panels in it and I could not believe the difference it made.Any
oncoming drivers-cars,campervans trucks etc- moved onto their side of the road
while they were still 100 metres away instead of 10.Visibility works.

[swbarnett]

I really don't get this.
The whole point of a hi-viz vest is to make it more likely that other drivers will see you. I don't wear a vest and I have a feeling that if I did I might start assuming that I've been seen. I like riding knowing that most, if not all, drivers won't see me. That way I take responsibility for myself.


I have spoken to several people about it and the UNIVERSAL response is that it's just a bit of cloth, not a suit of armour. They use it accordingly, mostly with no idea whether it does any good or not.
I've never met anyone who was lulled into anything by it. I guess it's the "not knowing" that makes it so.
You're probably right. I've never worn one so I'm only surmising how I might react to it.


Some of these vests have really good reflectors on them. I have been told that the Missus on the back lights up like the airport when in the headlights - no missing us from behind at night. This is also true of some other riding gear of course.
This only works if you're looking. Otherwise drivers would not miss fire appliances and trains.


If a person is of the mindset that a bit of brightly coloured cloth imparts a false sense of security, should they be on a bike?
Probably not. With the notable exception of the novice rider.


It seems to me that a healthy dose of skepticism is an essential motorcycling survival tool. IMHO, the moment you are sure that the car won't pull out on you is the moment you should update your funeral insurance.
Definitely. I just wonder if the ubiquitous wearing of hi-viz is counter to this.


This is a shot at the idea, not the person by the way.
No worries, Always good to get a different perspective.

[swbarnett]

... And I wear hi-viz from personal choice. I don't force anyone else to wear it as well, that's your choice.

You choose what you wear, it's no concern of mine and I won't denigrate you for what you choose to wear. Just wish you had the same respect for those who choose to dress differently to you when they ride their bikes.
This is exactly the attitude I'd like to see more prevalent. My only real objection to hi-vis is the thought that one day it might become compulsory.

[eldog]

The whole point of a hi-viz vest is to make it more likely that other drivers will see you. I don't wear a vest and I have a feeling that if I did I might start assuming that I've been seen. I like riding knowing that most, if not all, drivers won't see me.

No worries, Always good to get a different perspective.
Absolutely don't assume people will see you headlight. Hi vis or whatever.

I am probably the most highly visible object on the road. Still have had people driver straight into me. Only my observations saved me several times.

After my off. The hi vis was the only way by passers saw me to help. Even though I was feeling 10 ft tall and bullet proof it was nice to get help.

[caspernz]

Guessing it's been said before.

Those likely to wear a hi viz vest are those with a "safer" mentality.

Which means they are likely to be safer even without the vest.

It's a bit like the ACC courses. Those who attend are all there because they want to be. Which means they have a safety mentality, and are less likely to actually need the course.

Self defeating, really.

Absolutely right.

All I can add to the hiviz debate is one simple line. I don't ride any different in hiviz stuff as opposed to a black leather one piece, yet it's the behaviour of other motorists that is noticeably different.

[swbarnett]

Absolutely don't assume people will see you headlight. Hi vis or whatever.
Exactly. I'd love to run an experiment with a nearly invisible bike (completely black, no light, at night) and see if I could reach the other side of Auckland unscaithed. Afterall, we should be riding as if this is the case.


After my off. The hi vis was the only way by passers saw me to help. Even though I was feeling 10 ft tall and bullet proof it was nice to get help.
I can certainly see that a hi-viz would be a distinct advantage in the circumstances.

[Moi]

Absolutely right.

All I can add to the hiviz debate is one simple line. I don't ride any different in hiviz stuff as opposed to a black leather one piece, yet it's the behaviour of other motorists that is noticeably different.


What behaviour have you noticed to be different?

[caspernz]

What behaviour have you noticed to be different?

Fewer folks seem to pull out in front. That was with a black bike, now I've got a bright yellow one and I'm guessing it's the colour of the bike that seems to achieve this same level of attention/caution in other road users.

[swbarnett]

Fewer folks seem to pull out in front. That was with a black bike,
My bike is all black (except for a silver/grey scoop) and my gear is all black. I can't remember a time when I've had anybody pull out on me. But then I've been doing SIAMs as long as I can remember.

[eldog]

Exactly. I'd love to run an experiment with a nearly invisible bike (completely black, no light, at night) and see if I could reach the other side of Auckland unscaithed.

you can run it. no one here will stop you. But you may see the disco lights in the distance:crazy:

theres another side to Auckland? :scratch:

[nzspokes]

Entirely disagree.



I would expect you to.

[WristTwister]

I think the boys in here against hi-vis are more concerned about not looking as bad-ass :stoogie: on their bikes if they had to wear hi-vis than any imagined drawbacks of wearing hi-vis. "But no one can see my patches":weep:

[nzspokes]

I think the boys in here against hi-vis are more concerned about not looking as bad-ass :stoogie: on their bikes if they had to wear hi-vis than any imagined drawbacks of wearing hi-vis. "But no one can see my patches":weep:

If I wore Hi Viz my patch would still be seen.

[rastuscat]

It's coz hi viz looks naff. If it looked cooler, more people would wear it.

My strategy is to ride a bike that looks like a patrol bike, and ride it like I'm patrolling. Doesn't matter the colour I wear, works for me.

It sure increases the paranoia too. People ditch thein cellphones when I stare at them. Just in case, I suppose.

[fxxk]

I'm wondering when the topic of using High beam instead of low beam gets brought up.

The trouble with motorbikes isn't just the lack of colour / contrast, it's the physical size. I ride and drive a car, covering a great distance in the car for work. The greatest risk I've observed is when a vehicle is stopped at an intersection waiting to turn (either way), you're approaching behind another car who then turns left in front of the waiting vehicle, instinctively you move to the right to go around the car, the car waiting to turn out thinks "great there's a gap, that cars turning off, away I go" meanwhile your hidden behind that turning car about to pop out the other side of it and into that car pulling out, no fucking vest or strobe light is going to make you be seen, you physically are not occupying any space that sticks out behind that turning car, now you could sit on the left behind that car, but obviously you know what trouble that brings

[nerrrd]

I think the boys in here against hi-vis are more concerned about not looking as bad-ass :stoogie: on their bikes if they had to wear hi-vis than any imagined drawbacks of wearing hi-vis. "But no one can see my patches":weep:

Some of us have patches on our hivis. And by some of us I mean me. AND I sewed them on myself.

[fxxk]

P.s, even driving a ute with the lights on, people will still drive straight ahead through a roundabout without looking, or once it's too late

[Moise]

How do ACC know who was wearing a high vis? When I was injured in an accident recently, no one checked whether or not I was wearing one.

Wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference in my case.

[swbarnett]

you can run it. no one here will stop you. But you may see the disco lights in the distance:crazy:
It's not the cops I'd be worried about.


theres another side to Auckland? :scratch:
Yep, some of the best roads in these parts are there if you can find your way through the labyrinth.

[swbarnett]

I think the boys in here against hi-vis are more concerned about not looking as bad-ass :stoogie: on their bikes if they had to wear hi-vis than any imagined drawbacks of wearing hi-vis. "But no one can see my patches":weep:
Last patch I wore was in the Scouts.

I'm not against hi-viz per se. It's just that there's more than one way to skin a cat and I want to be free to choose the way that suits me.

[swbarnett]

I'm wondering when the topic of using High beam instead of low beam gets brought up.
Wonder no more. You just did.

Quickest way to blind drivers.

[BuzzardNZ]

If I wore Hi Viz my ponch would still be seen.

Fixed it for you:blink:

[eldog]

The trouble with motorbikes isn't just the lack of colour / contrast, it's the physical size. I ride and drive a car, covering a great distance in the car for work. The greatest risk I've observed is when a vehicle is stopped at an intersection waiting to turn (either way), you're approaching behind another car who then turns left in front of the waiting vehicle, instinctively you move to the right to go around the car, the car waiting to turn out thinks "great there's a gap, that cars turning off, away I go" meanwhile your hidden behind that turning car about to pop out the other side of it and into that car pulling out, no fucking vest or strobe light is going to make you be seen, you physically are not occupying any space that sticks out behind that turning car, now you could sit on the left behind that car, but obviously you know what trouble that brings

its all about visibility and getting a better sense of how far away you are from another road user point of view.

smaller vehicles don't pose a threat so they get ignored till its too late.

[Old Steve]

My strategy is to ride a bike that looks like a patrol bike, and ride it like I'm patrolling. Doesn't matter the colour I wear, works for me.
It sure increases the paranoia too. People ditch thein cellphones when I stare at them. Just in case, I suppose.

I rode an white, ex-Police Honda ST1100 in Queensland. Marvellously visible! Cars coming down side roads would dip as the brakes were slammed on, cars would start to ease into my lane and dart quickly back from whence they'd come, "S*#T, that's a Police bike!" One mechanic at a local bike shop would abuse me every time he saw me when I stopped to kick tires, "Damn you, I know there're no Police bikes in town but I slow down every time I see you on the road."

Oh, I wore a white helmet and a hi-vis too, that also helped motorists confuse me with the Polis. Safest bike riding I ever had, though it didn't stop the boys in blue giving me 11 demerit points by the time I headed home (12 points and you're walking!) The last 3 points I earned, the cop talked for about half an hour about riding ST1100s in the Force before writing the ticket - thought I'd got out of that one, might have if it'd been only a single pointer.

My point right through this thread has been wear what you like, but don't denigrate those who do or don't wear hi-viz. It's a personal thing, lets leave it that way.

[rastuscat]

I rode an white, ex-Police Honda ST1100 in Queensland. Marvellously visible! Cars coming down side roads would dip as the brakes were slammed on, cars would start to ease into my lane and dart quickly back from whence they'd come, "S*#T, that's a Police bike!" One mechanic at a local bike shop would abuse me every time he saw me when I stopped to kick tires, "Damn you, I know there're no Police bikes in town but I slow down every time I see you on the road."

Oh, I wore a white helmet and a hi-vis too, that also helped motorists confuse me with the Polis. Safest bike riding I ever had, though it didn't stop the boys in blue giving me 11 demerit points by the time I headed home (12 points and you're walking!) The last 3 points I earned, the cop talked for about half an hour about riding ST1100s in the Force before writing the ticket - thought I'd got out of that one, might have if it'd been only a single pointer.

My point right through this thread has been wear what you like, but don't denigrate those who do or don't wear hi-viz. It's a personal thing, lets leave it that way.

The only time someone pulled out in front of me when I was on an actual patrol bike was when the driver in question was trying to get himself disqualified.

Fortunately I was able to help him.

Safer Communities Together. And always blow on your pie.