Death by Cheesecutter, again?

[5150]

RIP and condolences to his family :(

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78762552/motorcyclist-dead-in-crash-in-north-waikato

[jellywrestler]

RIP and condolences to his family :(

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78762552/motorcyclist-dead-in-crash-in-north-waikato

better than going under an oncoming car.

[5150]

better than going under an oncoming car.

On one hand yes, but on the other which one gives you better chances of survival?

[TheDemonLord]

On one hand yes, but on the other which one gives you better chances of survival?

Not crashing in the first place.

[Banditbandit]

We don't know that the cheese cutters are what killed him ...

[jellywrestler]

We don't know that the cheese cutters are what killed him ...

yes we do, it's trial by kiwibiker

[Banditbandit]

And he was a very naughty deviant ..

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/top-stories/a/31316091/motorcyclist-killed-north-of-huntly/

[Scubbo]

possible suislide then?

[sidecar bob]

possible suislide then?

Yeah, he would have read the cheesecutter thread on here & thought, that will guarantee certain death, ill do it that way.

[Scubbo]

heh I rode down there and back on friday, IIRC that stretch is all 70K zoned with cones everywhere so probably tried to pass on the tinyest of "do no pass on median" strips which cars are forced onto with the cones... and shoddy roading all through there as its temporary until the new bypass is finished. anyway. GG... RIP

[Moi]

Police say:

Police initially believed the man had struck the median barrier but it was later confirmed he had hit the back of a logging truck.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78762552/motorcyclist-dead-in-crash-in-north-waikato

[Crasherfromwayback]

Police say:

Police initially believed the man had struck the median barrier but it was later confirmed he had hit the back of a logging truck.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78762552/motorcyclist-dead-in-crash-in-north-waikato

So getting wood was indeed the end of him.

[TheDemonLord]

Is it me or is that bike an Ex-Busa?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Is it me or is that bike an Ex-Busa?

Yeah Gen II

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah Gen II

Its the same colour as my Gen II :eek5:

Good job I worked from home

[Katman]

Its the same colour as my Gen II

That's incredible.

[Madness]

Its the same colour as my Gen II :eek5:

Such a coincidence (http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/78779449/Waikato-Expressway-bike-crash-kills-child-rape-accused) is uncanny.

[pritch]

better than going under an oncoming car.

Interesting logic - or lack thereof.

Does fatally hitting a wire barrier make you less dead than going under an oncoming car?

[TheDemonLord]

Interesting logic - or lack thereof.

Does fatally hitting a wire barrier make you less dead than going under an oncoming car?

I guess the only comment would be it might make you a more attractive Corpse or a more instantaneous Death

[TheDemonLord]

That's incredible.

It must be a Conspiracy - have you checked your blog sites? I worked from home today. I must have been tipped off by the Jewish/Illuminati/NWO/Alien/Vrill/Satanic Overlords.

Have you checked for Millions gone Missing?

[FLUB]

He was a paedophile on his way to court. Fucking good riddance.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[Crasherfromwayback]

He was a paedophile on his way to court. Fucking good riddance.



Cept that hadn't actually been proven yet... :msn-wink:

[Motu]

A guy at work came across this practically seconds after it happened - he saw a truck stop and start directing traffic, and a woman run across the road to the rider. from what he could see he couldn't work out what happened. I thought maybe a lane change by the truck... But a court case with 49 convictions could alter thought processes a bit.

[Crasherfromwayback]

. But a court case with 49 convictions could alter thought processes a bit.

Ummmmm...49 charges is a huge difference to 49 convictions.

[rastuscat]

Ummmmm...49 charges is a huge difference to 49 convictions.

So he'll be forever innocent, not having been proven guilty.

Ample proof that a court decision is unrelated to the fact of whether someone did it, or not.

[Kickaha]

He was a paedophile on his way to court. Fucking good riddance.

So he'd already been convicted and found guilty?

[Crasherfromwayback]

So he'll be forever innocent, not having been proven guilty.

.

Not at all. He may well be forever guilty. We simply don't know. But coming on here and deciding that he's guilty is a bit rich. Don't get me wrong, I think kiddy fiddlers should be shot...but...innocent until proven guilty and all...

[Motu]

Ummmmm...49 charges is a huge difference to 49 convictions.

I thought we'd already convicted him here?

[Madness]

I thought we'd already convicted him here?

It was case closed with the stuff.co.nz link I thought. Done like David.

[caseye]

RIP and condolences to his family :(

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78762552/motorcyclist-dead-in-crash-in-north-waikato

Not a dig at you , but did you know this rider?

You couldn't have read the whole stuff article, as posted above, because it clearly states, "at first!, it was thought he'd hit the median barrier ( wire rope) but it was established that he had collided with the rear end of a logging truck".
Neither way is a good way to go.

Please if you do know a rider who has died in a crash, once their name has been officially reported, check on site to see if there has been anything said. Often KB members have particular wishes about how they'd like KB to remember them, or not.
Site admins have in the past had to edit and or delete posts that named riders ahead of officials doing so and notifying family and loved ones of the rider's death.

[sidecar bob]

Ummmmm...49 charges is a huge difference to 49 convictions.
49 charges didn't just find him by accident. Fuck, one is pretty bad, so even if worst case the police got it wrong 48 times, it's still pretty convincing that he was up to mischief.

[Crasherfromwayback]

49 charges didn't just find him by accident. Fuck, one is pretty bad, so even if worst case the police got it wrong 48 times, it's still pretty convincing that he was up to mischief.

And I didn't say I think the guy is 100% innocent. But you know what they say mate...

[Cheesy]

Not a dig at you , but did you know this rider?

You couldn't have read the whole stuff article, as posted above, because it clearly states, "at first!, it was thought he'd hit the median barrier ( wire rope) but it was established that he had collided with the rear end of a logging truck".
Neither way is a good way to go.


Stuff is pretty good at changing the content of their story's as they go, so it may have originally stated that it was the cheese cutter

[nzspokes]

And I didn't say I think the guy is 100% innocent. But you know what they say mate...

Not 100% on it but believe he had been convicted on other cases and was awaiting sentencing. These were different cases.

If it is a suicide then the gutless prick just made a truck driver feel bad and his victims miss out on justice.

[jellywrestler]

If it is a suicide then the gutless prick just made a truck driver feel bad and his victims miss out on justice.

why would someone go up tha arse of a trailer when a head-on would be a little more effective?

[Big Dog]

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11412916

Based on this he was already a convicted paedophile.


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[Laava]

So he was sentenced to 11yrs jail in march last year? How was he even out?

[awayatc]

The truckdriver backed up into and over kiddie fiddler...?

[jasonu]

It must be a Conspiracy - have you checked your blog sites? I worked from home today. I must have been tipped off by the Jewish/Illuminati/NWO/Alien/Vrill/Satanic Overlords.

Have you checked for Millions gone Missing?

It's Americas fault.<_<

[Bass]

So he was sentenced to 11yrs jail in march last year? How was he even out?

That's what I was wondering - an appeal perhaps.

[nzspokes]

why would someone go up tha arse of a trailer when a head-on would be a little more effective?

Why would somebody going to court for such charges when there is a good chance he will go on remand , go on a motorcycle?

[5150]

Not a dig at you , but did you know this rider?

You couldn't have read the whole stuff article, as posted above, because it clearly states, "at first!, it was thought he'd hit the median barrier ( wire rope) but it was established that he had collided with the rear end of a logging truck".
Neither way is a good way to go.

Please if you do know a rider who has died in a crash, once their name has been officially reported, check on site to see if there has been anything said. Often KB members have particular wishes about how they'd like KB to remember them, or not.
Site admins have in the past had to edit and or delete posts that named riders ahead of officials doing so and notifying family and loved ones of the rider's death.

When I written this post very early yesterday morning, the stuff article did not mention the truck. All it said that the rider died after hitting median strip. Also, no names were mentioned in the morning edition of the article either. As the day progressed, Stuff editedd their article to include more details, which was way after I written this post.

[Madness]

Why would somebody going to court for such charges when there is a good chance he will go on remand , go on a motorcycle?

You're not overly familiar with the judicial process, huh? He'd already been on remand, probably with strict bail conditions and minus one passport. It's very unlikely he'd be remanded in custody at the second week of a trial without reasons such as outbursts in the court or threats made to witnesses.

[Big Dog]

When I written this post very early yesterday morning, the stuff article did not mention the truck. All it said that the rider died after hitting median strip. Also, no names were mentioned in the morning edition of the article either. As the day progressed, Stuff editedd their article to include more details, which was way after I written this post.
Yeah. SEO.
If they were first to post they rank higher in Google.
Most other outlets add a tag saying updated. But they will get moved down the ranks.

Eod it had little to do with delivering the news, lots to do with delivering ads.


Everyone who posts after them is not paying unique content.

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[Indoo]

When I written this post very early yesterday morning, the stuff article did not mention the truck. All it said that the rider died after hitting median strip.

So the lesson here is?

[5150]

So the lesson here is?

KB community will slaughter you no matter what you post here..... :lol:

[Crasherfromwayback]

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11412916

Based on this he was already a convicted paedophile.


Sent via tapatalk.

Good job then I say!

[Katman]

I'm still trying to figure out how he could be sentenced to 11 years in March last year but still be out riding his bike. :scratch:

[Erelyes]

better than going under an oncoming car.

Except there's not always oncoming cars.

Wait, this happened in the north of the north island, nevermind.

[Big Dog]

Except there's not always oncoming cars.

Wait, this happened in the north of the north island, nevermind.
So even less likely to have opposing traffic what with all the barriers.

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[TheDemonLord]

I'm still trying to figure out how he could be sentenced to 11 years in March last year but still be out riding his bike. :scratch:

I'm with you on that one - NZ 'Justice' at its finest.

[Indoo]

I'm still trying to figure out how he could be sentenced to 11 years in March last year but still be out riding his bike. :scratch:

Looks like he got a retrial and was in the middle of a high court trial. Sometimes happens that if they win an appeal they will be released on bail pending the retrial, i.e treated as innocent until proven guilty (again)....

[FlangMasterJ]

If it is a suicide then the gutless prick just made a truck driver feel bad and his victims miss out on justice.

Rather a truck driver who "feels bad" than hitting an oncoming vehicle killing a driver/passenger or both.

May he knew that if he did hit an oncoming vehicle and he survived he'd be charged with more offenses.

[Big Dog]

Based on the damage to the forks one would have to assume a significant speed differential.

I doubt it was an accident.

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[5150]

Based on the damage to the forks one would have to assume a significant speed differential.

I doubt it was an accident.

Sent via tapatalk.

Accidental suicide?

[sidecar bob]

Accidental suicide?

No life insurance payout for suicide.
Better to make it an "accident"

[Swoop]

So he was sentenced to 11yrs jail in march last year? How was he even out?
According to "the media" the original conviction/s were quashed and a re-trial ordered.
Once again, back to "innocent" until proven, etc, etc.


When I written this post very early yesterday morning, the stuff article did not mention the truck. All it said that the rider died after hitting median strip. Also, no names were mentioned in the morning edition of the article either. As the day progressed, Stuff editedd their article to include more details, which was way after I written this post.
Normal standards of <STRIKE>gossip-ism</STRIKE> "journalism" from stuff, then...:(

I'm still trying to figure out how he could be sentenced to 11 years in March last year but still be out riding his bike. :scratch:
Refer to comment #1.
Or, it was a government cover-up.

[pzkpfw]

No life insurance payout for suicide.
...

I asked (just morbidly, not planning anything) when I took out my upgraded "I just bought a motorcycle and the Wife is worried" policy.

My life insurance does pay out for suicide.

As long as it occurred after a year.

[sidecar bob]

I asked (just morbidly, not planning anything) when I took out my upgraded "I just bought a motorcycle and the Wife is worried" policy.

My life insurance does pay out for suicide.

As long as it occurred after a year.
You must have gold cover;)

[Crasherfromwayback]

My life insurance does pay out for suicide.

As long as it occurred after a year.


You must have gold cover;)

No, I think that's quite normal.

[Berries]

I have seen a shit load of crashes that involved wire rope barriers being hit but I have never seen one that magically lifted all the wires out and left the posts standing up straight like in the linked article.



I blame the Jews.

[oldrider]

If all the reports are correct that guy was dead long before he and his bike hit the truck then took out the cheese-cutter fence! :sick:

[nzspokes]

I have seen a shit load of crashes that involved wire rope barriers being hit but I have never seen one that magically lifted all the wires out and left the posts standing up straight like in the linked article.



I blame the Jews.

Council removed the wires to help the cops and allow traffic to move. HTH

[Berries]

Council removed the wires to help the cops and allow traffic to move. HTH
Yeah, that was pretty clear from the photo and the video. I was being slightly sarcastic in response to the OP jumping on the hysterical bandwagon without actually thinking.

[Motu]

Saw the dashcam footage today, looks like he got there a couple of minutes after it happened. You could see someone giving CPR to the rider, and the bike in the wire fence. About 2km down the road was the logging truck, the right rear bumper/tail lamp bracket of the trailer was bent and the mudflap missing. Looks like what we all fear, a lane change into the bike. Dunno what the speed differencial was. There is a merge into the right lane where the Expressway roadworks are, I guess the truckdriver was thinking ahead for the lane change....or maybe passing a slower truck. The dashcam driver didn't see emergency vehicles until the 70kph limit in Huntly.

[trufflebutter]

A lot of second guessing in this thread, is that normal for the select few that choose to apply their worldly knowledge on matters of this nature?

[Akzle]

My life insurance does pay out for suicide.

As long as it occurred after a year.

a year and a day. Statute of limitations in the crimes act.

[Crasherfromwayback]

A lot of second guessing in this thread, is that normal for the select few that choose to apply their worldly knowledge on matters of this nature?

Fuck yeah! This is Kiwibiker.

[Madness]

My life insurance does pay out for suicide.

As long as it occurred after a year.

I heard that youi charge different premiums according to your preferred method.

[RGVforme]

They have just installed some of these on Napier's Marine Parade after a truckie fell asleep and slammed into one of the trees a while ago which sit some distance apart...This 100kmh section of road has a mean camber change to one side half way along it that along with the sea view target fixation and wind on some days sees most drifting off to one side or into head on traffic.The results should be interesting....At least before an off biker had a chance of missing the trees.:facepalm:.

[nadroj]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/80001036/Motorcyclist-dead-following-crash-in-Taranaki

[Maha]

Unable to comment as investigations into the cause of the crash are continuing.

[Erelyes]

I saw fit to contact the Powers That Be (the minister of transport) about this and received the following reply.

'The perceived risks posed to motorcyclists by wire rope barriers have been considered carefully by the NZTA. The University of New South Wales, with funding assistance from the NZTA and the ACC, undertook an in-depth analysis of motorcycle impacts into roadside barriers in both NZ and Australia. The available data shows that barriers of any kind were a factor in only a very small percentage of motorcycle fatalities.

NZ motorcycle crash data from Jan 2001 to July 2013 shows that of the 20 motorcycle fatalities that followed hitting a barrier, 13 involved 'W-beam guardrails' and three involved wire rope safety barriers. In the same period there were 97 fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs, and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

Of the barrier collisions recorded, the results show that wire rope safety barriers have around half the fatality rate of W-beam barrier installations, and that concrete barrier installations are the most dangerous of all to motorcyclists.

Further information is availaable on the NZTA website - www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-engineering/road-safety-hardware/wire-rope-safety-barriers'

Hard to argue with that. Given that barriers are a small factor in collisions, and wire rope barriers are an even smaller subset of those, I think I'll stop focussing on them and worry about other stuff on my rides.

[Ocean1]

I saw fit to contact the Powers That Be (the minister of transport) about this and received the following reply.

'The perceived risks posed to motorcyclists by wire rope barriers have been considered carefully by the NZTA. The University of New South Wales, with funding assistance from the NZTA and the ACC, undertook an in-depth analysis of motorcycle impacts into roadside barriers in both NZ and Australia. The available data shows that barriers of any kind were a factor in only a very small percentage of motorcycle fatalities.

NZ motorcycle crash data from Jan 2001 to July 2013 shows that of the 20 motorcycle fatalities that followed hitting a barrier, 13 involved 'W-beam guardrails' and three involved wire rope safety barriers. In the same period there were 97 fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs, and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

Of the barrier collisions recorded, the results show that wire rope safety barriers have around half the fatality rate of W-beam barrier installations, and that concrete barrier installations are the most dangerous of all to motorcyclists.

Further information is availaable on the NZTA website - www.nzta.govt.nz/roads-and-rail/road-engineering/road-safety-hardware/wire-rope-safety-barriers'

Hard to argue with that. Given that barriers are a small factor in collisions, and wire rope barriers are an even smaller subset of those, I think I'll stop focussing on them and worry about other stuff on my rides.

It reeks of spin.

Roadside barriers?

What percentage of barriers are WRB / Concrete / Armco? In other words what's the fatality per kilometer traveled beside each?

Why are they quoting an Australasian study but filtering out Aussie data?

Why does the WRB data from Europe indicate a poor enough safety performance that they're removing it wholesale?

And, yet again: if roadside obstructions are responsible for 260 motorcycle deaths in 12 years then why the fuck are they continuing to install more of it?

Meh. If you want straight answers don't ask a fucking politician.

[Moi]

I saw fit to contact the Powers That Be (the minister of transport) about this and received the following reply...

This may be of interest: http://www.reaaa.co.nz/publication/cheesecutters-eggslicers-and-motorcycles-by-nicholas-rodger-transit-nz/wppa_open/

and so may this: https://www.towardszero.vic.gov.au/making-progress/articles/flexible-barriers-how-they-work-and-the-cheese-cutter-myth

I wonder if this is the report to which the Minister referred? https://msac.org.nz/assets/Uploads/pdf/Motorcycle-Crashes-into-Roadside-Barriers-Stage-4-web.pdf

[Duncan74]

Why are they quoting an Australasian study but filtering out Aussie data?

Why does the WRB data from Europe indicate a poor enough safety performance that they're removing it wholesale?

And, yet again: if roadside obstructions are responsible for 260 motorcycle deaths in 12 years then why the fuck are they continuing to install more of it?

Meh. If you want straight answers don't ask a fucking politician.

1) Because then it's answering the question asked (regarding NZ accidents) where if they had replied with 'across Australasia...' as a response then they would have been accused of using irrelevant data and not answering the question? In regard to the fatatlity per KM then you'd need to adjust for the conditions as different types of barrier are used in different circumstances, and so there would be bias-wire ropes are generally on roads with less width, and potentially more curvature than some other types of barriers. Also
2) They aren't. In some countries with very different road conditions (remember, NZ is unique which is why we can rant about tourists, but sadly means we can't then claim to apply selective decisions as being directly applicable.
3) Because having barriers saves more. The point of that response was to highlight that 200+ riders hit roadside 'features' (trees, signs, etc) where if there had been wire ropes by the side of the road they wouldn't have hit. Sure, a proportion would still have been killed as they hit the wire rope, but not all. What you can't have data on is how many motorcyclists didn't get hit head on by a car / truck / other biker when travelling on a road with a central wire rope.

And finally, whilst clearly going to get me some not great rep here, the barriers aren't just installed to save motorcyclists. In pretty much every location where the barriers are there are more cars, and often more trucks than motorcyclists. So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved. And even for the majority of people on here, a biased sample of transport users, how many KM per year do people travel on two wheels vs 4 wheels? So overall, the safety benefits for the average motorcyclists from wire ropes exceeds any disbenefit. And I speak as someone that's done 12,000km on 2 wheels in the last 5 months.

[swbarnett]

So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved.

Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).

[Duncan74]

Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).

If you replaced the word motorcyclist in my post, as you suggest, then I'd be a rambling lunatic making bizarre links between completely irrelevant things to add further emotional fuel in the absence of a logical or reasoned argument.

[swbarnett]

If you replaced the word motorcyclist in my post, as you suggest, then I'd be a rambling lunatic making bizarre links between completely irrelevant things to add further emotional fuel in the absence of a logical or reasoned argument.
Let me spell out my point. Why is it OK to discriminate against a group of individuals based on their chosen form of transport when it is so obviously not OK to do it based on race?

I really don't give a flying fuck if WRBs (or any barrier), on balance, saves lives if they can be shown to endanger motorcyclists. I can guarantee you that if they were shown to be perfectly safe for us "whites" but killed Maori they'd all be ripped out before you could say race relations conciliator.

[Madness]

chosen

That, right there, fucks your race analogy.

[merv]

I see the new Transmission Gully highway looks like it is going to have plenty of WRB on it.

<iframe width="487" height="274" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3Hj0WeuvQws" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Big Dog]

That, right there, fucks your race analogy.
I may not agree with the race analogy, but I take umbrage at your insinuation there is a choice.
I tried to quit riding. All that really happened was I spent every spare moment and a few that weren't spare warring with myself over had I made the right decision or should I get another bike.
It was a hell like no other.
It is a passion, a religion and a way of life. It is not a choice.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[swbarnett]

That, right there, fucks your race analogy.
Chosen or night. It's still discrimination against a minority.

[Madness]

I may not agree with the race analogy, but I take umbrage at your insinuation there is a choice.
I tried to quit riding. All that really happened was I spent every spare moment and a few that weren't spare warring with myself over had I made the right decision or should I get another bike.
It was a hell like no other.
It is a passion, a religion and a way of life. It is not a choice.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

You're just too fucking big to fit in a car :facepalm:

Although your post was very cute, I disagree. I wake up on a sunny weekend morning. I could jump on the bike, in the car or in my brand spanking new work van, entirely my choice. Some days I feel like being a Mexican but it's yet to happen for some reason.

[Maha]

Aren't WRB's installed where motorcyclist would rather not ride? Y'all probably would have a legitimate beef if they were all over your favorite twisty bits. If you're unfortuante enough to come into contact with one on a straight bit of road, it's possibly something more to do with your riding habit.

[Akzle]

You're just too fucking big to fit in a car :facepalm:

Although your post was very cute, I disagree. I wake up on a sunny weekend morning. I could jump on the bike, in the car or in my brand spanking new work van, entirely my choice. Some days I feel like being a Mexican but it's yet to happen for some reason.

drink tequila. You can borrow my sombrero.

[Ocean1]

1) Because then it's answering the question asked (regarding NZ accidents) where if they had replied with 'across Australasia...' as a response then they would have been accused of using irrelevant data and not answering the question? In regard to the fatatlity per KM then you'd need to adjust for the conditions as different types of barrier are used in different circumstances, and so there would be bias-wire ropes are generally on roads with less width, and potentially more curvature than some other types of barriers. Also
2) They aren't. In some countries with very different road conditions (remember, NZ is unique which is why we can rant about tourists, but sadly means we can't then claim to apply selective decisions as being directly applicable.
3) Because having barriers saves more. The point of that response was to highlight that 200+ riders hit roadside 'features' (trees, signs, etc) where if there had been wire ropes by the side of the road they wouldn't have hit. Sure, a proportion would still have been killed as they hit the wire rope, but not all. What you can't have data on is how many motorcyclists didn't get hit head on by a car / truck / other biker when travelling on a road with a central wire rope.

And finally, whilst clearly going to get me some not great rep here, the barriers aren't just installed to save motorcyclists. In pretty much every location where the barriers are there are more cars, and often more trucks than motorcyclists. So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved. And even for the majority of people on here, a biased sample of transport users, how many KM per year do people travel on two wheels vs 4 wheels? So overall, the safety benefits for the average motorcyclists from wire ropes exceeds any disbenefit. And I speak as someone that's done 12,000km on 2 wheels in the last 5 months.

Are you a politician?
1) Irrelevant, when presenting data you supply the full set, anything less is politics.

2) They are removing them. And / or spending far more than the original savings the choice of WRB represented in the first place to cover them in plastic panels. And not just in Azerbekstan. In fact the main difference in installation is that here they’re installed on roads without the recommended minimum 3 meter offset distance from the lane. So yes, in that regard NZ is unique, we’re installing them incorrectly in the interest of cost. And not very much cost at that.

3) I’ve never said we shouldn’t have barriers. Simply that WRB isn’t as safe for riders as the similarly priced and performing concrete barriers. And not even NZTA are stupid enough to suggest that riders benefit from WRB, (including the posts that support them) on the roadside because they then don’t hit other posts further away.

That being the case why aren’t we using bike friendly barriers AND ripping out all of the spurious roadside posts, barriers and trees?

You could use the budget for WRB to pay for the concrete barriers and the savings from not killing "200+", (and in fact 260) bike riders to pay for removing dangerous roadside posts and trees.

And before another fuckwit suggests we all just ride better I'll point out that there's two aspects to risk: frequency and consequence. Given enough miles the best rider in the world will eventually make a mistake. And when he does the WRB won't give a fuck how good he was.

[scumdog]

Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).


Motorcyclists CHOOSE to be motorcyclists...;)

[Old Steve]

I asked the Roads Board or something why WRBs had been placed between the straight through Maunganui Rd lane and the lane coming down from the Hewletts Rd flyover if you're heading south - just south of the BP. They said they needed to install a barrier there because SUV drivers of a certain gender were suddenly changing lanes once they came off the flyover or came level with the outside lane, this endangering traffic in the other lane. I suggested they use those bendy wands, they said they had and the SUV drivers of a certain gender were just driving through them and the problem of sudden incursion into the other lane still existed when those bendy wands were used. Because different lane barriers need a specified separation from traffic they had to use the physical WRBs which have the lowest specified clearance.

So, despite being aware of the shortcomings of the WRB, it was the best solution to a problem which included motorbike riders being sideswiped by cars changing lanes without looking. Haven't heard of any motorbike injuries or deaths there at that site, but I bet there have been some motorists and bike riders saved from a side on because thee barriers are there.

Now I think WRBs are used in some senseless places, but that's one where WRBs were used with bike rider's protection in mind.

[oldrider]

Motorcyclists CHOOSE to be motorcyclists...;)

True! - and motorcyclists generally choose to avoid tangling with WRB's. :ride:

[swbarnett]

Aren't WRB's installed where motorcyclist would rather not ride?
True. The problem is that it takes a lot longer to get to work if I don't take the motorway.


Y'all probably would have a legitimate beef if they were all over your favorite twisty bits. If you're unfortuante enough to come into contact with one on a straight bit of road, it's possibly something more to do with your riding habit.
Definitely. On a day to day basis they don't worry me too much. It's the hypocrisy of them I don't like.

[swbarnett]

Motorcyclists CHOOSE to be motorcyclists...;)
It's still discrimination if it impinges on my freedom to choose.

[swbarnett]

Let me change the analogy slightly and ask what would happen if median barriers were harmful to those of a certain faith? After all, religion is also a choice.

[scumdog]

It's still discrimination if it impinges on my freedom to choose.

Yep.

Life's like that...there's always SOMEBODY waving the Discrimination Card(tm).

[Drew]

Are you a politician?
1) Irrelevant, when presenting data you supply the full set, anything less is politics.

2) They are removing them. And / or spending far more than the original savings the choice of WRB represented in the first place to cover them in plastic panels. And not just in Azerbekstan. In fact the main difference in installation is that here they’re installed on roads without the recommended minimum 3 meter offset distance from the lane. So yes, in that regard NZ is unique, we’re installing them incorrectly in the interest of cost. And not very much cost at that.

3) I’ve never said we shouldn’t have barriers. Simply that WRB isn’t as safe for riders as the similarly priced and performing concrete barriers. And not even NZTA are stupid enough to suggest that riders benefit from WRB, (including the posts that support them) on the roadside because they then don’t hit other posts further away.

That being the case why aren’t we using bike friendly barriers AND ripping out all of the spurious roadside posts, barriers and trees?

You could use the budget for WRB to pay for the concrete barriers and the savings from not killing "200+", (and in fact 260) bike riders to pay for removing dangerous roadside posts and trees.

And before another fuckwit suggests we all just ride better I'll point out that there's two aspects to risk: frequency and consequence. Given enough miles the best rider in the world will eventually make a mistake. And when he does the WRB won't give a fuck how good he was.
260 deaths won't be prevented, because the barrier itself is very infrequently a major contributing factor in the deaths.

Cunts woulda died most of the time they did anyway.

[swbarnett]

Yep.

Life's like that...there's always SOMEBODY waving the Discrimination Card(tm).
Agreed. Says more about those doing the discriminating than those doing the waving.

[scumdog]

Agreed. Says more about those doing the discriminating than those doing the waving.

Minorities calling the shots? Smacks of PC-ness,of the weak wanting to rule the strong, the tail wagging the dog.

Nature doesn't work that way.

[Akzle]

Minorities calling the shots? Smacks of PC-ness,of the weak wanting to rule the strong, the tail wagging the dog.

Nature doesn't work that way.

fucken ayye.

The weak join together in gangs, and roam the streets enforcing whatever their top dog/paymaster says.

[scumdog]

fucken ayye.

The weak join together in gangs, and roam the streets enforcing whatever their top dog/paymaster says.

True.

But then they're no longer the weak.

And have limited power.

[Akzle]

True.

But then they're no longer the weak.

And have limited power.

oh they're still weak. Try getting one to scrap you one on one without a belt full of weapons on.

Pussies, all.

[scumdog]

oh they're still weak. Try getting one to scrap you one on one without a belt full of weapons on.

Pussies, all.

Pfft, generalisation - and contradiction to your original claim.

Oh and pick the wrong one and it would be your last fight, not all as weak as you would like to think...:shifty:

[Ocean1]

260 deaths won't be prevented, because the barrier itself is very infrequently a major contributing factor in the deaths.

Cunts woulda died most of the time they did anyway.

In the case of these particular 260 fatalities the barriers didn't contribute anything.


there were 97 fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs, and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

So, take away the posts, poles, traffic signs and trees from beside the road then what's going to kill 'em? Lack of a dayglow skivvy?

It ain't fucking rocket surgery, they've lost sight of what they're supposed to be doing, their "preventative" measures are killing people.

[Swoop]

Some days I feel like being a Mexican but it's yet to happen for some reason.
Yup. Van doors aren't made for entering whilst wearing a sombrero...

Minorities calling the shots? Smacks of PC-ness,of the weak wanting to rule the strong, the tail wagging the dog.
Aaaah! Green Party manifesto 101.
:msn-wink:

[swbarnett]

Minorities calling the shots? Smacks of PC-ness,of the weak wanting to rule the strong, the tail wagging the dog.

Nature doesn't work that way.
Modern human progress relies on those that go against the grain and defy tradition. Minorities are the backbone of social and technological advancement.

A balance must be struck. The tail can't wag the dog but at the same time the dog must respect the tail if it expects to function properly.

First and foremost you don't put in a "safety" measure that completely ignores a perfectly legal section of the community. As I've said before WRBs don't worry me that much when I'm riding. They're just another hazard. And there's the rub - a "safety" device that in practice is a hazard.

[Madness]

Let me change the analogy slightly and ask what would happen if median barriers were harmful to those of a certain faith? After all, religion is also a choice.

Then it would be a simple case of the more the better, obviously.

[Duncan74]

Let me change the analogy slightly and ask what would happen if median barriers were harmful to those of a certain faith? After all, religion is also a choice.

In that case then 'motorcyclists' would be campaigning for oiled roads and spiked bollards in the middle of blind corners. As to my understanding the one uniting feature of religions is that you're better off dead. Rather surprisingly I've not heard of a religion that says that once you're finished in this world, life isn't going to suddenly become a life of leisure surrounded by lovely ladies.

However, I suspect I'm not quite following the line of discussion that you were intending.

[Berries]

And there's the rub - a "safety" device that in practice is a hazard.
Like any barrier then?

I sure as fuck do not want to slide in to an armco barrier or the posts that support it. I particularly don't want to hit it a glancing blow and come off my bike and then rag doll along the top of it losing chunks of my body on the top of the wooden posts. I don't want to hit a wire rope barrier and I don't want to hit concrete.

I don't want to hit a tree or an oncoming vehicle either. I don't want to drift off the road at 100km/h and hit a culvert, or go cross country and lose the front end and bounce in to a strainer post. All barriers can kill you if you try hard enough, armco, wire rope and concrete. They can also stop you being killed. There are no stats but I would have thought that barriers, of all types, have saved more riders lives than killed them.


All this talk about cheese has made me hungry now............

[Big Dog]

Like any barrier then?

I sure as fuck do not want to slide in to an armco barrier or the posts that support it. I particularly don't want to hit it a glancing blow and come off my bike and then rag doll along the top of it losing chunks of my body on the top of the wooden posts. I don't want to hit a wire rope barrier and I don't want to hit concrete.

I don't want to hit a tree or an oncoming vehicle either. I don't want to drift off the road at 100km/h and hit a culvert, or go cross country and lose the front end and bounce in to a strainer post. All barriers can kill you if you try hard enough, armco, wire rope and concrete. They can also stop you being killed. There are no stats but I would have thought that barriers, of all types, have saved more riders lives than killed them.


All this talk about cheese has made me hungry now............
I agree.... mmmm grilled cheese... yep all this talk about cheese.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[caspernz]

I agree.... mmmm grilled cheese... yep all this talk about cheese.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

I'd say judging by the hot air this topic generates, there have been cheese and onion toasted sandwiches consumed aplenty...:innocent::blink::shutup::woohoo:

[Drew]

In that case then 'motorcyclists' would be campaigning for oiled roads and spiked bollards in the middle of blind corners. As to my understanding the one uniting feature of religions is that you're better off dead. Rather surprisingly I've not heard of a religion that says that once you're finished in this world, life isn't going to suddenly become a life of leisure surrounded by lovely ladies.

However, I suspect I'm not quite following the line of discussion that you were intending.
The Jewish are not convinced there is a heaven. Essentially they are all about the here and now.

[Maha]

Motorcycling wouldn't be what it is if there was nothing grizzle about. You will find that a large percentage just get on with it knowing that there are more things out there that can kill you more readily.

[Moi]

Motorcycling wouldn't be what it is if there was nothing grizzle about. You will find that a large percentage just get on with it knowing that there are more things out there that can kill you more readily.

http://leisurelearningcafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/God-at-his-computer.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1c/45/8c/1c458c30758d7191defb163c445833a3.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f9/33/dc/f933dcdb69c584f6e0bfebef03503042.jpg

[skippa1]

Its not guns that kill people, its people that kill people......

complete the following

its not motorcycles that kill people, its............

its not WRBs that kill people, its.........

[Akzle]

Its not guns that kill people, its people that kill people......

complete the following

its not motorcycles that kill people, its............

its not WRBs that kill people, its.........

ALIENS!! I fucken knew it.

[Maha]

Its not guns that kill people, its people that kill people......

complete the following

its not motorcycles that kill people, its............

its not WRBs that kill people, its.........

Stating the obvious is frowned upon and at times just floats straight over some coned shaped heads.

[Erelyes]

Why does the WRB data from Europe indicate a poor enough safety performance that they're removing it wholesale?

I think Moi's post following yours answers a lot of those questions, but the key point from his second link (https://www.towardszero.vic.gov.au/making-progress/articles/flexible-barriers-how-they-work-and-the-cheese-cutter-myth)I took away is that some "... governments have either ceased installation or banned the barriers due to political pressure from lobby groups. But, there is no scientific research to show flexible barriers cause more deaths and serious injuries for motorcyclists. Swedish studies have shown there is actually a 40 – 50% reduction in risk of being killed for motorcyclists with wire rope safety barriers."


And, yet again: if roadside obstructions are responsible for 260 motorcycle deaths in 12 years then why the fuck are they continuing to install more of it?

Because those 260 motorcyclists would have otherwise hit something else (or oncoming traffic) and died anyhoo?
Because other motorcyclists hit a barrier, were OK, got up and rode away, with noone really being the wiser?
Because they saved hundreds, or thousands, of cager's lives?


Meh. If you want straight answers don't ask a fucking politician.

And apparently if you want an appeal to emotion with the ignorance of facts, ask a whinging biker.


It ain't fucking rocket surgery, they've lost sight of what they're supposed to be doing, their "preventative" measures are killing people.

No, they're killing themselves. Would Dee McMahon and Natalia Austin (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/69803161/Friends-baffled-by-fatal-Wellington-motorbike-crash) have fared better hitting oncoming traffic? Would the people they'd have hit, been better off?

Should we remove all the Rimutaka hill barriers too and let people just fly into the ravine? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2999168/Driver-survives-plunge) Maybe we should pass an amendment to the Road User Rule that they must shout 'Geronimo' upon doing so.

[James Deuce]

Should we remove all the Rimutaka hill barriers too and let people just fly into the ravine? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2999168/Driver-survives-plunge) Maybe we should pass an amendment to the Road User Rule that they must shout 'Geronimo' upon doing so.

The barriers are there to stop cars. Motorcyclists and trucks just whistle into the ravine. This is why when I crash on the Remutaka Pass road, I hurl myself and my bike into the cliff face for later retrieval.

[swbarnett]

Like any barrier then?

I sure as fuck do not want to slide in to an armco barrier or the posts that support it. I particularly don't want to hit it a glancing blow and come off my bike and then rag doll along the top of it losing chunks of my body on the top of the wooden posts. I don't want to hit a wire rope barrier and I don't want to hit concrete.
Totally agree. It's really a matter of degree. A safety measure that decreases safety pretty much defeats the purpose.


I don't want to hit a tree or an oncoming vehicle either. I don't want to drift off the road at 100km/h and hit a culvert, or go cross country and lose the front end and bounce in to a strainer post.
At least these haven't been put in for the express purpose of making the road safer.


All barriers can kill you if you try hard enough, armco, wire rope and concrete. They can also stop you being killed.
Agree on both points. The issue is whether we are safer with them than without. My own feeling (only opinion, no facts to back it up) is that we aren't.


There are no stats but I would have thought that barriers, of all types, have saved more riders lives than killed them.
This may well be true but it's no comfort passing Rangiriri on a dark, rainy night with a crawler in front and an massive truck approaching from behind trying hard to slow down and you have nowhere to go.

[skippa1]

At least these haven't been put in for the express purpose of making the road safer.

.
What about traffic light poles, speed restriction signs, lamp posts, stop signs, give way signs, concrete bridge abutments, general road signs, traffic islands etc.....all put in with the express purpose of making the road safer......the impact with any one of these items has resulted in a motorcyclist dying

[trufflebutter]

Leave acting like a fuckwit out of the equation for now, what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier?

[James Deuce]

Leave acting like a fuckwit out of the equation for now, what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier?

That simply doesn't matter. Everything is speculation until it happens. The outcome of a simple collision can be negligible to fatal for any motorcyclist, at any time, irrespective of cause, effect or intent. The list is infinite.

[trufflebutter]

That simply doesn't matter. Everything is speculation until it happens. The outcome of a simple collision can be negligible to fatal for any motorcyclist, at any time, irrespective of cause, effect or intent. The list is infinite.

Sounds like a response from page one of a Wire Rope Barrier installers handbook.

[skippa1]

Sounds a response from page one of a Wire Rope Barrier installers handbook.
It actually just sounds like common sense......there are so many influencing factors that control the outcome of a motorcycle collision that no two are the same, likewise the outcomes for the rider

[trufflebutter]

It actually just sounds like common sense......there are so many influencing factors that control the outcome of a motorcycle collision that no two are the same, likewise the outcomes for the rider

''So many influencing factors'' yet you wont even name one? Typical stance of this forum, we are talking about Wire Rope Barriers here in particular, not collisions with anything else specifically.

[swbarnett]

No, they're killing themselves. Would Dee McMahon and Natalia Austin (http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/69803161/Friends-baffled-by-fatal-Wellington-motorbike-crash) have fared better hitting oncoming traffic? Would the people they'd have hit, been better off?
There is no guarantee that any given down biker that hit a barrier would've hit anything.

[swbarnett]

Leave acting like a fuckwit out of the equation for now, what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier?
Weather, traffic and mechanical failure come to mind.

[Erelyes]

''So many influencing factors'' yet you wont even name one? Typical stance of this forum, we are talking about Wire Rope Barriers here in particular, not collisions with anything else specifically.

Don't be obtuse.

Here's one, are you on the bike or off? If on, are you in the middle of lowsiding, highsiding or endo'ing? If off, are you flying, sliding, tumbling? Are you in front of, beside, behind, or under the bike?

et-fucking-cetera.

Could you honestly not extrapolate that from your imagination?

[trufflebutter]

Refreshing to see that not all males on here answer a simple question without first trying to divert.

[Berries]

Anyone posted this yet?

http://www.csppacific.co.nz/Products.php?id=60&Cat=Road_Barriers&MenuBut=RBarriers&MenuItem=1

[James Deuce]

Sounds a response from page one of a Wire Rope Barrier installers handbook.

At the risk of stating the obvious have you ever participated in a non-injury, minor injury, moderate injury, severe injury, near-death, or fatal motorcycle accident?

I've managed 5.5 of those 6 in multiple different environments. Hitting things wasn't usually the #1 cause of big problems. It was things hitting me.

I don't subscribe to the comment you posted further on about "males" answering with "evasion". I think you probably have a rosier view of motorcycling than me. I'm not evading anything. The more I know about riding bikes, the more I know that there is no point trying to address single points of failure in the accident/injury/death cycle. The number 1 contributor to motorcycle accidents is the mental attitude of all the participants of a particular accident. Number 2 is a lack of skills to address a particular situation on the part of the all the participants of a particular accident.

If I'm going to crash I prefer a race track. Having said that I've had 3 good mates succumb to their injuries either instantly or over a few days after racing incidents. I've crashed there a bit. You slide and slide and then stand up provided no one hits you or you don't hit something. If you highside, all bets are off. On the road,once you're sliding, you're just a vaguely out of control meat-missile that is subject to luck and other people's reaction times, decisions, and skill.

On the road you easily fall victim to a list of potential events and situations that would boggle the mind if you would just engage your imagination. Barriers and road side furniture just something you have to live with. The list of things you can't control is endless. The only things you CAN control are your mental attitude, your skills, and the protective clothing you CHOOSE to wear, while understanding that the protective clothing may do nothing to ameliorate injuries or may make a life saving difference, or may let you live when it may have been better to die.

I have no idea why people get so upset by WRBs when there is no proof to support them being any better or worse than single rail armco for instance, which is very common in NZ, when there are people in NZ who are happy to open their car door on you in traffic. That's attempted murder in my book. The biggest barrier to addressing the road toll in NZ is in people's heads. Fix that and you're left with unavoidable things like rock falls, mechanical failure and natural disaster.

[Moi]

Anyone posted this yet?

http://www.csppacific.co.nz/Products.php?id=60&Cat=Road_Barriers&MenuBut=RBarriers&MenuItem=1

Something which would improve the safety of the WRB and armco barrier uprights is available in NZ and conforms with NZ safety standards. Yet on the Coromandel they used a lower barrier on the armco road-side barriers - does suggest that the lower barrier may be considered safer, though probably more expensive.

[skippa1]

''So many influencing factors'' yet you wont even name one? Typical stance of this forum, we are talking about Wire Rope Barriers here in particular, not collisions with anything else specifically.
Fuck me....are you really that stupid?

[eldog]

At the risk of stating the obvious have you ever participated in a non-injury, minor injury, moderate injury, severe injury, near-death, or fatal motorcycle accident?

The more I know about riding bikes, the more I know that there is no point trying to address single points of failure in the accident/injury/death cycle. The number 1 contributor to motorcycle accidents is the mental attitude of all the participants of a particular accident. Number 2 is a lack of skills to address a particular situation on the part of the all the participants of a particular accident.

If I'm going to crash I prefer a race track. Having said that I've had 3 good mates succumb to their injuries either instantly or over a few days after racing incidents. I've crashed there a bit. You slide and slide and then stand up provided no one hits you or you don't hit something. If you highside, all bets are off. On the road,once you're sliding, you're just a vaguely out of control meat-missile that is subject to luck and other people's reaction times, decisions, and skill.

On the road you easily fall victim to a list of potential events and situations that would boggle the mind if you would just engage your imagination. Barriers and road side furniture just something you have to live with. The list of things you can't control is endless. The only things you CAN control are your mental attitude, your skills, and the protective clothing you CHOOSE to wear, while understanding that the protective clothing may do nothing to ameliorate injuries or may make a life saving difference, or may let you live when it may have been better to die.

I have no idea why people get so upset by WRBs when there is no proof to support them being any better or worse than single rail armco for instance, which is very common in NZ, when there are people in NZ who are happy to open their car door on you in traffic. That's attempted murder in my book. The biggest barrier to addressing the road toll in NZ is in people's heads. Fix that and you're left with unavoidable things like rock falls, mechanical failure and natural disaster.

I have suffered the first 3 types of injury
Agree about #1 and especially about #2 - lack of skills of what to do in a situation :)

Bike setup such as tyres and being able to react to situations will help reduce/avoid incidents

Riders choice and making informed decision, certainly will improve outcome.

WRB's are highly visible targets in the eyes of the public.
To me it's obvious they can relatively easy to improve.
The posts are already there just like ARMCO or W barriers so installation cost is greatly reduced compared to original installation etc no matter what the type

[Swoop]

Weather, traffic and mechanical failure come to mind.

Let's not forget the ever popular (with council repair people) "re-seal the road surface, coat liberally with pea gravel, fail to erect signposts, fail to sweep road surface of pea-gravel" option. Especially important to do this on, or near, a corner.
Stick a WRB on that corner and you have an entirely different scenario.

[trufflebutter]

Fuck me....are you really that stupid?

Going out on a limb here but I would suggest that stupidity is rampant both on and off the road as you have others have recently demonstrated throughout this forum.

[skippa1]

Going out on a limb here but I would suggest that stupidity is rampant both on and off the road as you have others have recently demonstrated throughout this forum.
A little ironic choice of words, i lost my right leg and fractured my back 10 weeks ago when i got bowled off my bike by a careless driver.....

you cant seriously ask anyone to believe that you cant think of any number of influencing factors when it comes to causes or outcomes of collisions?

[Drew]

Going out on a limb here but I would suggest that stupidity is rampant both on and off the road as you have others have recently demonstrated throughout this forum.

Yet, here you are. Still typing away.

[Drew]

A little ironic choice of words, i lost my right leg and fractured my back 10 weeks ago when i got bowled off my bike by a careless driver.....

you cant seriously ask anyone to believe that you cant think of any number of influencing factors when it comes to causes or outcomes of collisions?

Are you're mates calling ya 'Lefty' yet?

[eldog]

Going out on a limb here but I would suggest that stupidity is rampant both on and off the road as you have others have recently demonstrated throughout this forum.

Are you calling me stupid?:crybaby:

[skippa1]

Are you're mates calling ya 'Lefty' yet?
Got em all now, lefty, popeye, hoppy, pegleg......

[eldog]

Let's not forget the ever popular (with council repair people) "re-seal the road surface, coat liberally with pea gravel, fail to erect signposts, fail to sweep road surface of pea-gravel" option. Especially important to do this on, or near, a corner.
Stick a WRB on that corner and you have an entirely different scenario.

The old loose stone chip and tar bleed best friends with WRB or any other type of vehicle restraint

[Drew]

Got em all now, lefty, popeye, hoppy, pegleg......

Time to organise an arse kicking contest.

[skippa1]

Time to organise an arse kicking contest.
Yep, just tried on my new kick arse leg yesterday, pick it up next week.......I have a hydraulic knee....all the better to kick your arse with

[eldog]

Something which would improve the safety of the WRB and armco barrier uprights is available in NZ and conforms with NZ safety standards. Yet on the Coromandel they used a lower barrier on the armco road-side barriers - does suggest that the lower barrier may be considered safer, though probably more expensive.

Well it's a start. Let's see some installed on hi motorcycle accident rate areas.
I was thinking about linking the posts so you slide along them.

[Drew]

The old loose stone chip and tar bleed best friends with WRB or any other type of vehicle restraint

Tar bleed sucks, but it's not unexpected most of the time.

I don't remember ever having encountered loose chip without warning.

I'm beginning to wonder how many bikers actually enjoy riding as much as I do. Half you cunts seem to just whinge and moan about how bad you've got it.

Harden the fuck up, pussies.

[eldog]

Yep, just tried on my new kick arse leg yesterday, pick it up next week.......I have a hydraulic knee....all the better to kick your arse with
What about the back, what happens there, is it just wait for it to heel or what?

[Drew]

Well it's a start. Let's see some installed on hi motorcycle accident rate areas.
I was thinking about linking the posts so you slide along them.

How about just teaching riders to fucken ride. That'd sort out the high motorcycle accident areas.

[eldog]

Tar bleed sucks, but it's not unexpected most of the time.

I don't remember ever having encountered loose chip without warning.

I'm beginning to wonder how many bikers actually enjoy riding as much as I do. Half you cunts seem to just whinge and moan about how bad you've got it.

Harden the fuck up, pussies.

I would not moan and whinge if the job was done right.

I sincerely hope the pussies don't hard up

[eldog]

How about just teaching riders to fucken ride. That'd sort out the high motorcycle accident areas.

That would sort out a lot of those areas yes.

still wouldn't fix the other ones, but it would help.

Showing people that they should be more vigilant and aware of their surroundings and their own skills/choice of equipment - Improvement being the main goal.

[skippa1]

What about the back, what happens there, is it just wait for it to heel or what?
Stable fracture that will heal with time.....just makes some sitting or lying positions uncomfortable

[eldog]

Stable fracture that will heal with time.....just makes some sitting or lying positions uncomfortable
Friend of mine spend 6 months on his back (broken back-is what he called it)
Said it was the worst time, made sure I didn't do the same thing. Miss that bastard....

you have a great outlook, thanks for sharing:niceone::rockon:

[skippa1]

Friend of mine spend 6 months on his back (broken back-is what he called it)
Said it was the worst time, made sure I didn't do the same thing. Miss that bastard....
Yeah its not fun but a fucken sight better than being in a pine box 6' under

[Ocean1]

I think Moi's post following yours answers a lot of those questions, but the key point from his second link (https://www.towardszero.vic.gov.au/making-progress/articles/flexible-barriers-how-they-work-and-the-cheese-cutter-myth)I took away is that some "... governments have either ceased installation or banned the barriers due to political pressure from lobby groups. But, there is no scientific research to show flexible barriers cause more deaths and serious injuries for motorcyclists. Swedish studies have shown there is actually a 40 – 50% reduction in risk of being killed for motorcyclists with wire rope safety barriers.".

Oh I’m prepared to believe that the relative safety of different stuff around our roads is really really counter-intuitive, and not for the layman to believably comment on.

But when you see someone supplying partial data sets to demonstrate that sharp, solid steel posts mounted perpendicular to traffic flow are safer for motorcyclists than pretty much anything at all running parallel to traffic flow then you’re seeing someone being economical with the truth. Seriously.


Because those 260 motorcyclists would have otherwise hit something else (or oncoming traffic) and died anyhoo?

When was the last time you saw oncoming traffic arriving from behind roadside obstructions?

If I’ve overshot my line on a right hander due to fuckwittedness, or a dodgy patch of road surface then the one thing that will give me the very best chance of recovering from that is more room. Ideally more room of a bituminous nature, but if it has to be gravel or grass I’ll take it, and chances are I’ll make that work.

The one thing that’ll fuck that second chance right up is a fucking 4”x4” post holding up a sign saying: >


Because other motorcyclists hit a barrier, were OK, got up and rode away, with noone really being the wiser?.

Well I’m prepared to believe that whoever believes that really isn’t any the wiser.



Because they saved hundreds, or thousands, of cager's lives?

Entirely aside from the fact an awful lot of roadside barriers seem to be protecting motorists from nice green flat fields it’s also true that other types of barriers would have saved pretty much exactly the same number of cagers without representing a serious risk to motorcyclists.

[trufflebutter]

Leave acting like a fuckwit out of the equation for now, what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier?


A little ironic choice of words, i lost my right leg and fractured my back 10 weeks ago when i got bowled off my bike by a careless driver.....

you cant seriously ask anyone to believe that you cant think of any number of influencing factors when it comes to causes or outcomes of collisions?

Correct, I was not implying what you suggest....
I was asking for anyone what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier. Not a car/truck/tree/pole etc. You were not the only one that failed to pick up on that. I did not think it was a difficult question.

[skippa1]

Correct, I was not implying what you suggest....
I was asking for anyone what probable causes will see a motorcyclist collide with a Wire Rope Barrier. Not a car/truck/tree/pole etc. You were not the only one that failed to pick up on that. I did not think it was a difficult question.
Are you on drugs?

[swbarnett]

Tar bleed sucks, but it's not unexpected most of the time.
Good tyres can virtually eliminate the need to worry about it. Gotta love those PR4s.


I don't remember ever having encountered loose chip without warning.
Where you been hiding? I've come across that in about half a dozen spots in the past few months. Maybe it's just the upper north island that suffers from this?


I'm beginning to wonder how many bikers actually enjoy riding as much as I do. Half you cunts seem to just whinge and moan about how bad you've got it.

Harden the fuck up, pussies.
Riding keeps me sane. Quick jaunt down to Gisborne over the weekend and all the stress just melted away.

[swbarnett]

How about just teaching riders to fucken ride. That'd sort out the high motorcycle accident areas.
If it were that simple they'd just teach drivers to drive as well and we'd all stay on our own side of the fucken road.

[Big Dog]

Got em all now, lefty, popeye, hoppy, pegleg......
At least there is a chance we will find out just how busy a one legged man is during an arse kicking contest.


Edit: dammit, turn one more page and Drew beat me to it.
Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[James Deuce]

Tar bleed sucks, but it's not unexpected most of the time.

I don't remember ever having encountered loose chip without warning.

I'm beginning to wonder how many bikers actually enjoy riding as much as I do. Half you cunts seem to just whinge and moan about how bad you've got it.

Harden the fuck up, pussies.

Pretty bad over my way at the moment. They've rooted a couple of my favourite corners properly and can't seem to fix one of them. Subsequent repairs have actually made the problem worse, so a sign posted 35kph corner that was an easy 70 kph is now tiptoe in/skate out. The good thing is I'm relearning how to hold a slide I guess. The side road that I use a bit that intersects with that corner, is about 50m of loose gravel through a couple of corners that is dragged off that corner by loose gravel. The bottom of the water tower road was shit for about three weeks after resealing until normal use swept it. The road that links Ngamu road and the Gladstone road has been resealed, but it's usgae is so low that they've basically turned it into a gravel road. The Bicycle club that is based down that road is having a right old whinge and I don't blame them.

[James Deuce]

Stable fracture that will heal with time.....just makes some sitting or lying positions uncomfortable
Broke 4 vertebrae like that. Have to say that the uncomfortable bit didn't really go away for me, but your inspirational attitude is spot on. No point crying into your warm milk :).

[James Deuce]

Going out on a limb here but I would suggest that stupidity is rampant both on and off the road as you have others have recently demonstrated throughout this forum.
I wonder if cassina has changed her login ID.

Didn't get the answer you wanted; kept making ad hominem attacks.

WRBs are not the biggest issue on the road. Whinging about them makes the motorcycling "collective" (which doesn't exist) look stupid and entitled.

[Drew]

If it were that simple they'd just teach drivers to drive as well and we'd all stay on our own side of the fucken road.

It is that simple. Yes, drivers should be formally trained as well.

The masses will likely bitch about cost...fuck 'em. Driving/riding is not a God given right.

[trufflebutter]

I wonder if cassina has changed her login ID.

Didn't get the answer you wanted; kept making ad hominem attacks.

WRBs are not the biggest issue on the road. Whinging about them makes the motorcycling "collective" (which doesn't exist) look stupid and entitled.

Where have I whinged about them? I firmly believe that though they have the potential to maim/kill, so do many other factors of riding a motorbike on the road.

[Drew]

Where have I whinged about them? I firmly believe that, though they have the potential to maim/kill, so do many other factors of riding a motorbike on the road.

But you think someone has to cite specific examples in order to make a very obvious point?

You're an idiot.

[swbarnett]

It is that simple. Yes, drivers should be formally trained as well.
"You can lead a horse to water..."

It would certainly be a good start though.

[James Deuce]

Where have I whinged about them? I firmly believe that, though they have the potential to maim/kill, so do many other factors of riding a motorbike on the road.
Didn't say that you did. There has been a sustained whinge from disconnected organisations and individuals who claim to represent the nonexistent collective noun of "motorcycling" for some time now.

WRBs have no more potential to kill or maim than any other roadside furniture, and that is supported by peer reviewed data that may or may not be biased.

I believe that any stationary object is a problem, but, as I've said, the biggest problem I've faced on the road is other stuff hitting me, not me hitting it. Singling out one kind of roadside furniture isn't addressing the core issues that can be fixed to a point, of mental attitude and skills training/practice.

[Ocean1]

Didn't say that you did. There has been a sustained whinge from disconnected organisations and individuals who claim to represent the nonexistent collective noun of "motorcycling" for some time now.

WRBs have no more potential to kill or maim than any other roadside furniture, and that is supported by peer reviewed data that may or may not be biased.

I believe that any stationary object is a problem, but, as I've said, the biggest problem I've faced on the road is other stuff hitting me, not me hitting it. Singling out one kind of roadside furniture isn't addressing the core issues that can be fixed to a point, of mental attitude and skills training/practice.

I resemble the inference that I was ever connected, or organized.

And I'm not personally singling out WRB. I simply find it less than equitable that any consideration of bikers has been omitted from whatever process may or, (as I suspect) may not be responsible for decisions to install all sorts of hard lumpy shit on our roads.

That, and I've observed that every other fucking minority in NZ manages to get pretty much what they want by the simple expediency of bitching and moaning about shit with a maximum application of righteous indignation as loudly as possible.

At least I've got not only personal interest on my side but actual basic physics.

Also, I don't agree that you're more likely to modify other's driving / riding performance than the environment in which they fail to perform. Physical manipulation of our environment to our advantage is what we do, becoming something other than human isn't.

[James Deuce]

Also, I don't agree that you're more likely to modify other's driving / riding performance than the environment in which they fail to perform. Physical manipulation of our environment to our advantage is what we do, becoming something other than human isn't.

I'm not asking for much. Just an uplift from appallingly shitty to faintly aware.

[Maha]

Didn't say that you did. There has been a sustained whinge from disconnected organisations and individuals who claim to represent the nonexistent collective noun of "motorcycling" for some time now.

WRBs have no more potential to kill or maim than any other roadside furniture, and that is supported by peer reviewed data that may or may not be biased.

I believe that any stationary object is a problem, but, as I've said, the biggest problem I've faced on the road is other stuff hitting me, not me hitting it. Singling out one kind of roadside furniture isn't addressing the core issues that can be fixed to a point, of mental attitude and skills training/practice.

Back in 2007 Jim when the 'Riders against Wire Rope Barrier' campaign got under way, there where around 8,000 signatures collected by way of a petition. Quasi/Zapf and Draco were the prime movers of this. A shit load of bikers turned up to the first 'protest ride'. Under two years later the petition starters lost interest in what they had started and handed the petition onto another group (AAG) which morphed into MAG. Mag did absolutely nothing (Anne and I were apart of MAG the from 2010 until 2011) the papers sat in a closet until 2013 where they were eventually placed into a skip and dumped due to repeated disinterest from the new MAG to take them back.
My point is, there is apathy around such issues and even though some seem dedicated to theses issues, they ultimately fade away only to be spewed up every few years or so, where the same arguments get tossed about for a week or two until the argument hits the wall...so to speak.

[James Deuce]

Back in 2007 Jim when the 'Riders against Wire Rope Barrier' campaign got under way, there where around 8,000 signatures collected by way of a petition. Quasi/Zapf and Draco were the prime movers of this. A shit load of bikers turned up to the first 'protest ride'. Under two years later the petition starters lost interest in what they had started and handed the petition onto another group (AAG) which morphed into MAG. Mag did absolutely nothing (Anne and I were apart of MAG the from 09' until 2010) the papers sat in a closet until 2013 where they were eventually placed into a skip and dumped due to repeated disinterest from the new MAG to take them back.
My point is, there is apathy around such issues and even though some seem dedicated to theses issues, they ultimately fade away only to be spewed up every few years or so, where the same arguments get tossed about for a week or two until the argument hits the wall...so to speak.
Yeah I know and I went on the rides. I've read stuff since then which has changed my mind.

[scumdog]

So, after all this 'discussion' has anybody got figures of those bikers killed due to impact with wrb vs those whose life was saved by an oncoming vehicle hitting the wrb and deing stopped/deflected out of the path of a motorcyclist?:confused:

[Maha]

So, after all this 'discussion' has anybody got figures of those bikers killed due to impact with wrb vs those whose life was saved by an oncoming vehicle hitting the wrb and deing stopped/deflected out of the path of a motorcyclist?:confused:

From the NZTA website.

A study of NZ motorcycle-barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows of 20 motorcycle fatalities sustained as a result of riders hitting a roadside or median barrier, just 3 involved wire rope barriers, while 13 involved traditional steel ‘W’ beam barriers and 4 other barrier types. Over the same time period there were 97 motorcyclist fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

[swbarnett]

From the NZTA website.

A study of NZ motorcycle-barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows of 20 motorcycle fatalities sustained as a result of riders hitting a roadside or median barrier, just 3 involved wire rope barriers, while 13 involved traditional steel ‘W’ beam barriers and 4 other barrier types. Over the same time period there were 97 motorcyclist fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.
If all roads had barriers presumably the "70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees" would instead die from hitting a barrier. I wonder how many riders went down and managed to avoid both trees and traffic? They would likely also become barrier victims.

[scumdog]

How many have been hit by an oncoming vehicle crossing the centre-line?

[James Deuce]

How many have been hit by an oncoming vehicle crossing the centre-line?
Hello! :)

But it was only a mirror to the elbow because I ducked. Most of the time I don't let them get that close.

[skippa1]

How many have been hit by an oncoming vehicle crossing the centre-line?
Me.....no pine box though

[Moi]

Didn't say that you did. There has been a sustained whinge from disconnected organisations and individuals who claim to represent the nonexistent collective noun of "motorcycling" for some time now.

WRBs have no more potential to kill or maim than any other roadside furniture, and that is supported by peer reviewed data that may or may not be biased.

I believe that any stationary object is a problem, but, as I've said, the biggest problem I've faced on the road is other stuff hitting me, not me hitting it. Singling out one kind of roadside furniture isn't addressing the core issues that can be fixed to a point, of mental attitude and skills training/practice.

+1... especially the second and third paragraphs.

[Moi]

So, after all this 'discussion' has anybody got figures of those bikers killed due to impact with wrb vs those whose life was saved by an oncoming vehicle hitting the wrb and being stopped/deflected out of the path of a motorcyclist?:confused:


From the NZTA website.

A study of NZ motorcycle-barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows of 20 motorcycle fatalities sustained as a result of riders hitting a roadside or median barrier, just 3 involved wire rope barriers, while 13 involved traditional steel ‘W’ beam barriers and 4 other barrier types. Over the same time period there were 97 motorcyclist fatalities from collisions with posts or poles, 70 from hitting traffic signs and 93 from crashing into unprotected trees.

I would suggest that we will never know how many were saved by the barriers, as the figures quoted above are for motorcyclists who died as a result of hitting "something"...

but looking at the scrapes on median barriers I would hazard a guess that there are many road users alive today because the barrier did its job.

[Maha]

I would suggest that we will never know how many were saved by the barriers, as the figures quoted above are for motorcyclists who died as a result of hitting "something"...

but looking at the scrapes on median barriers I would hazard a guess that there are many road users alive today because the barrier did its job.

100% agree. either way, the annual road toll would be astronomical with a barrier of sorts on the Motorway system's and high crash rate areas.... unfortunately people may die by hitting them from time to time but at least they don't kill an innocent road user in the process.

[eldog]

Should change the name of this thread to "Death by barrier - how can we reduce injury and death caused by them"

[eldog]

How many have been hit by an oncoming vehicle crossing the centre-line?

You should move to the Franklin area - far too many idiots crossing the centreline on blind corners, they just don't do it as much with a barrier installed.

[eldog]

100% agree. either way, the annual road toll would be astronomical withOUT a barrier of sorts on the Motorway system's and high crash rate areas.... unfortunately people may die by hitting them from time to time but at least they don't kill an innocent road user in the process.

Was this what you meant?

I think having barriers helps, its just that they could be improved for us riders

[trustme]

Should change the name of this thread to "Death by barrier - how can we reduce injury and death caused by them"

By not falling off & hitting them !!!!

[eldog]

By not falling off & hitting them !!!!

you don't have to fall off, you can be pushed into them :weird:

[Ocean1]

I'm not asking for much. Just an uplift from appallingly shitty to faintly aware.

Then stop treating them like appallingly shitty motorists. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/world/europe/a-path-to-road-safety-with-no-signposts.html

"Mr. Monderman drove him to a small country road with cows in every direction. Their presence was unnecessarily reinforced by a large, standard-issue European traffic sign with a picture of a cow on it.

"He said: 'What do you expect to find here? Wallabies?"' Mr. Hamilton-Baillie recalled. "'They're treating you like you're a complete idiot, and if people treat you like a complete idiot, you'll act like one.'

"Here was someone who had rethought a lot of issues from complete scratch. Essentially, what it means is a transfer of power and responsibility from the state to the individual and the community."

[trustme]

Tell me how many times riders have been pushed into barriers as opposed to those who have fallen off . I'm somewhat sceptical.

[eldog]

several times I have come close to being pushed into the WRBs at Rangariri

how would I know how many actually were pushed - there may have been a few

Each death is a cost
Each injury is a cost

Each life saved by having a barrier is a saving

I remember before Manurewa to Papakura/Drury had barriers, at one stage there seemed to be a death by head on once a week.
Then the WRBs were added, a few more deaths, since then its either become a non event or people aren't dying there.

[buggerit]

WRB are great revenue generating structures for the repair crew and 4 traffic management trucks every time someone hits it.
Why do all the toll roads have concrete barriers, more cost effective for private investors?
Why do people that are for WRB , make the comparison between WRB and no barrier, rather than an alternative like concrete.
Most of the time you are travelling parallel to the barrier if it is a central barrier, so hitting it is a glancing blow rather
than a frontal impact .
Why with all the new OSH regulations, are they allowed to erect something that is more dangerous for some customers
when there is and alternative?

[Swoop]

I don't remember ever having encountered loose* chip without warning.

Come further north, we have shitloads.
After a ride I've rung the council over it, especially as being on one of the nicest roads close to town.



* Bonus points for using the correct amount of the letter "o" in that word.
The amount of KB'ers who can't work out the correct word for their sentence...:bash:

[Ocean1]

Tell me how many times riders have been pushed into barriers as opposed to those who have fallen off . I'm somewhat sceptical.

For me it's been attempted three times. Once deliberately, by a rental van full of corrections' clients.

The logging truck would have succeeded if I'd had just a couple of HP less.

[Maha]

Tell me how many times riders have been pushed into barriers as opposed to those who have fallen off . I'm somewhat sceptical.

I will say none, with just three deaths involving wire rope barriers in 13 years (I know how one of those happened) that leaves two, out of those two remaining, the chances of either begin as a result of being pushed by another vehicle wont even enter the equation. I am happy for anyone to prove me wrong.

'Attempts' and 'come close to' is not actual... in relation to the question asked.

'A study of NZ motorcycle-barrier crash data from January 2001 to July 2013 shows of 20 motorcycle fatalities just 3 involved wire rope barriers'

[russd7]

been avoiding getting in on this debate because everything i have seen so far to do with people being against WRB has been totally based on emotion.

so i have a question for those that are so against these things, what is it about these WRB that you believe are actually designed to kill motorcyclists that are not going to kill you if it is a concrete barrier you hit instead.

[James Deuce]

been avoiding getting in on this debate because everything i have seen so far to do with people being against WRB has been totally based on emotion.

so i have a question for those that are so against these things, what is it about these WRB that you believe are actually designed to kill motorcyclists that are not going to kill you if it is a concrete barrier you hit instead.
Actually I got knocked off by a truck veering across three lanes and hit a concrete barrier and slid along it. I broke my wrist because I had my arm out as I went down but the barrier saved me from ending up on the wrong side of the motorway and caused no injury at all due to me hitting it at an oblique angle and skating along it. I do prefer that to getting tangled up in posts or going between them and emerging into oncoming traffic. But like I said before you can't guarantee that you'll fall and slide the same way in the same scenario.

[eldog]

Actually I got knocked off by a truck veering across three lanes and hit a concrete barrier and slid along it. I broke my wrist because I had my arm out as I went down but the barrier saved me from ending up on the wrong side of the motorway and caused no injury at all due to me hitting it at an oblique angle and skating along it. I do prefer that to getting tangled up in posts or going between them and emerging into oncoming traffic. But like I said before you can't guarantee that you'll fall and slide the same way in the same scenario.

This is what I think concrete barrier or any barrier with a continuous surface would be better than the current WRB/W barrier systems. Adding another section to the lower side of the barrier would be an improvement IMHO.

[Ocean1]

been avoiding getting in on this debate because everything i have seen so far to do with people being against WRB has been totally based on emotion.

so i have a question for those that are so against these things, what is it about these WRB that you believe are actually designed to kill motorcyclists that are not going to kill you if it is a concrete barrier you hit instead.

Basic physics. Very basic.

If you hit a concrete wall head on, at 90 degrees fast enough to generate about 40g then you're dead.
Hit it at 45 degrees at the same speed and you're going to experience 24g. Likely broken stuff, trip to ED. A bit sore.
Hit it at 15 degrees, (the max angle most likely in a barrier accident) and you're going to experience 6.8g. Likely to be some grazing. A bit miffed.

Hit a WRB post at the same speed at 90 degrees, (ignoring, for the moment the fact that the impact's spread over nowhere near as much of your body, so about half the above sped is all that's required) and you're dead. There isn't another option, you can't hit them at any other angle.

So yeah, very emotive.

[sidecar bob]

My 14 year old son quizzed me where I stood on the Wrb debate while driving home the other night, apparently it's a topic in social studies in his class at the moment.
I told him that I thought the protestors were a bunch of fuckin muppets, as is well documented on here, & we proceeded to identify all the hazards that could kill a motorcyclist for the rest of the journey home, none of them being wrb's, as there were none.
When we arrived home, It was decided that the best way to stay alive on a motorbike, was to hit nothing, wrb's included.

[nzspokes]

Basic physics. Very basic.

If you hit a concrete wall head on, at 90 degrees fast enough to generate about 40g then you're dead.
Hit it at 45 degrees at the same speed and you're going to experience 24g. Likely broken stuff, trip to ED. A bit sore.
Hit it at 15 degrees, (the max angle most likely in a barrier accident) and you're going to experience 6.8g. Likely to be some grazing. A bit miffed.

Hit a WRB post at the same speed at 90 degrees, (ignoring, for the moment the fact that the impact's spread over nowhere near as much of your body, so about half the above sped is all that's required) and you're dead. There isn't another option, you can't hit them at any other angle.

So yeah, very emotive.

Yerp. But the assumption there is you hit the wire. I reckon its the posts that bother me more if you are sliding. Same with the W barriers.

More wires would spread the energy and have a better outcome?

But dont plan on finding out.

[Ocean1]

Yerp. But the assumption there is you hit the wire. I reckon its the posts that bother me more if you are sliding. Same with the W barriers.

More wires would spread the energy and have a better outcome?

But dont plan on finding out.

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

[nzspokes]

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

Fair call, read it wrong. Thats what took a mates leg off.

[russd7]

Basic physics. Very basic.

If you hit a concrete wall head on, at 90 degrees fast enough to generate about 40g then you're dead.
Hit it at 45 degrees at the same speed and you're going to experience 24g. Likely broken stuff, trip to ED. A bit sore.
Hit it at 15 degrees, (the max angle most likely in a barrier accident) and you're going to experience 6.8g. Likely to be some grazing. A bit miffed.

Hit a WRB post at the same speed at 90 degrees, (ignoring, for the moment the fact that the impact's spread over nowhere near as much of your body, so about half the above sped is all that's required) and you're dead. There isn't another option, you can't hit them at any other angle.

So yeah, very emotive.

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

[nzspokes]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

Is Cassina at your place tonight?

[russd7]

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

so are you going to start bitching about all the road signs, trees, the miles and miles of farmers fences etc as well.
and actually it is possible to glance off a post depending on how you hit them
ride to stay on

[russd7]

Is Cassina at your place tonight?

yeah naaa, i dont fall off like she does

[swbarnett]

how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees.
He's talking about the posts. Even at 15degrees to the barrier you'll hit them at 90degrees (roughly)

[Ocean1]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees

And I'm emotive. :laugh:

I gave you facts. You don't have to believe them, but publicly saying so sorta makes you look uneducated.

Think about it real hard, how the fuck are you going to hit a vertical post while traveling in a horizontal plane at anything other than head on?

Actually, don't bother, the strain will just get you all hormonal again.

[skippa1]

And I'm emotive. :laugh:

I gave you facts. You don't have to believe them, but publicly saying so sorta makes you look uneducated.

Think about it real hard, how the fuck are you going to hit a vertical post while traveling in a horizontal plane at anything other than head on?

Actually, don't bother, the strain will just get you all hormonal again.
The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists.....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?

[James Deuce]

The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists.....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?
I argued many years ago that the posts were the issue and the threat is exacerbated by their frequency when compared to single row Armco. I was shot in the face for going against the flow. Their main application is supposed to be in tandem with a central reservation. The WRB are designed to absorb energy by stretching. When used with central reservations, even large trucks can be arrested before they make it to the opposing lanes. My opposition is based on their largely incorrect installation in NZ and lack of desire to clad the posts, something being done around the world, not the potential for the wires to do anything to a motorcyclist.

[eldog]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

Ever thought about the reasoning about where different types of barriers are used? its not related to $ alone.
If you replaced the concrete barriers with say WRBs or removed them would the outcomes be any different?
Your chance of surviving is far greater than if there was no barrier and you had a headon (or a vehicle crossed the median into your path)
Pushing you back into your lane gives you a better chance, you are already travelling in the same direction as the other vehicles. hopefully they will be stopping to.
Far better than being flung into the path of opposing traffic IMHO

Accidents are the result of something going wrong or a mistake being made.

You don't blame anyone else for these events - did you cause them? "have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me"
so now we have someone to blame? not the driver that was in control?
Sure you "stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed" - that's what should happen, ride to the conditions

I am not bitching about WRBs alone, its about barriers including ARMCO, W which have exposed posts.
Upskilling is a great way of avoiding these but shit does happen.

[nzspokes]

I argued many years ago that the posts were the issue and the threat is exacerbated by their frequency when compared to single row Armco. I was shot in the face for going against the flow. Their main application is supposed to be in tandem with a central reservation. The WRB are designed to absorb energy by stretching. When used with central reservations, even large trucks can be arrested before they make it to the opposing lanes. My opposition is based on their largely incorrect installation in NZ and lack of desire to clad the posts, something being done around the world, not the potential for the wires to do anything to a motorcyclist.

Yerp, you got it.

[Ocean1]

The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?

Don't make me quote my last half dozen "posts". :laugh:

The minute I heard the term "cheese cutter" I knew any chance we had of mitigating or limiting their use was well fucked. It's a fucking stupid term, just asking to be shot down by the army of conformists safety Nazis that don't actually bother to read or listen any further than that label.

[eldog]

Don't make me quote my last half dozen "posts". :laugh:

The minute I heard the term "cheese cutter" I knew any chance we had of mitigating or limiting their use was well fucked. It's a fucking stupid term, just asking to be shot down by the army of conformists safety Nazis that don't actually bother to read or listen any further than that label.

Wot he said :niceone:

[eldog]

I argued many years ago that the posts were the issue and the threat is exacerbated by their frequency when compared to single row Armco. I was shot in the face for going against the flow. Their main application is supposed to be in tandem with a central reservation. The WRB are designed to absorb energy by stretching. When used with central reservations, even large trucks can be arrested before they make it to the opposing lanes. My opposition is based on their largely incorrect installation in NZ and lack of desire to clad the posts, something being done around the world, not the potential for the wires to do anything to a motorcyclist.

+1 and any other safety barrier of a similar type

[yokel]

But isn't the whole idea of riding a motorcycle all about trying to kill ones self??

I see new WRB going up around here, it's kinda disconcerting having them on both sides of the lane you're in I guess.

The wire rope is not main the issue as you're usually going the same direction, it's all the steel posts (100x40x3.2mm) that you're going to hit at 90 degrees no matter how you approach them that'll fuck you over.
Just like anything else on the road side.

Only ride stupidly were it's a but safer to do so.

[Swoop]

One, primary, consideration is that these barriers are not installed as the designers intended.

Minimum distances away from the flow of traffic are not adhered to. Some of our "advanced goat-track roads" do not permit the required distance and should have a solid concrete barrier (preferred option) or an armco barrier (option #2) in preference.

[James Deuce]

But isn't the whole idea of riding a motorcycle all about trying to kill ones self??


Oh hell yes, but despite my best efforts, it's just another thing I can add to the list of things that make me a loser.

#547 - Can't kill self on motorcycle.

[Akzle]

One, primary, consideration is that these barriers are not installed as the designers intended.

Minimum distances away from the flow of traffic are not adhered to. Some of our "advanced goat-track roads" do not permit the required distance and should have a solid concrete barrier (preferred option) or an armco barrier (option #2) in preference.

why fuck around? 50ft runoff and a tyre stack...

[Banditbandit]

But isn't the whole idea of riding a motorcycle all about trying to kill ones self??



AWESOME. I wish you every success with that - and I hope you achieve your goal this week !!! (tho' next week is also good ... )

[caspernz]

One, primary, consideration is that these barriers are not installed as the designers intended.

Minimum distances away from the flow of traffic are not adhered to. Some of our "advanced goat-track roads" do not permit the required distance and should have a solid concrete barrier (preferred option) or an armco barrier (option #2) in preference.

No argument about the install distances being less than optimal. On the other hand, when car drivers are so busy updating their Facebook status or texting that they lose control at 100 clicks on an easy stretch of road...makes naff all difference if the WRB is 0.5 or 2.5 m away from the lane edge.

The WRBs around the works sites for the Waikato Expressway around Rangiriri and Te Kauwhata get hit with monotonous regularity. This in 50 and 70 zones. Mind you, seems lots of folks only do this speed when I'm trucking along in front of them at these limits.

In my humble opinion the only time WRBs make me nervous is when I'm being tailgated thru areas with no opportunity to overtake, and my rear facing gattling is empty...

[swbarnett]

...makes naff all difference if the WRB is 0.5 or 2.5 m away from the lane edge.
Except that the WRB deforms up to 3m towards the opposing lane. Without that 3m buffer that's into the opposing lane.

[caspernz]

Except that the WRB deforms up to 3m towards the opposing lane. Without that 3m buffer that's into the opposing lane.

Life's full of compromises :mellow:

[swbarnett]

Life's full of compromises :mellow:
True. But in this case that 3m buffer means that WRBs require more room to be properly installed than concrete.