You pricks are costing us taxpayers too much money

[HenryDorsetCase]

Fuck y'all. Time to ban MURDERCYCLES.


http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/middle-aged-men-top-acc-motorcycle-claims-2016042316#axzz46dcRciDu

[Scuba_Steve]

Fuck y'all. Time to ban MURDERCYCLES.



Don't worry it's coming...

[AllanB]

They will probably decide to make us mature riders have to ride LAMS bikes .....

It's typical low level news really - whooo-do-doooo, So how much does it cost to cover some of the car crash victims?

[Spearfish]

They will probably decide to make us mature riders have to ride LAMS bikes .....

It's typical low level news really - whooo-do-doooo, So how much does it cost to cover some of the car crash victims?

Must be quite a bit considering diesel work trucks/utes etc are ACC heavy.

[Berries]

Hardly news is it, someone has to be at the top of the list.

[rebyl]

I guess I had better hang up my boots to stop the country going broke....Yeah right

[Oakie]

Statistics like this are only useful alongside other data ... specifically in this case, how many people ride in each age group. In my unscientific opinion based on the percentage of people with grey hair at bike race meetings, I would expect that middle aged men make up the majority of motorcyclists so it make sense that middle aged men have the most accidents.

For perspective ... what breed of dog is implicated in most dog bite incidents?

The answer is .... labradors. Not because they are dangerous ... but because there's so damned many of the fuckers! Just like us middle aged men of the two wheeled brigade.

[Jeff Sichoe]

Fuck it, I give enough of my money back in taxes that I'd enjoy a free helicopter ride if I crash

[Madness]

Hardly news is it, someone has to be at the top of the list.

Cassina? .

[george formby]

Statistics like this are only useful alongside other data ... specifically in this case, how many people ride in each age group. In my unscientific opinion based on the percentage of people with grey hair at bike race meetings, I would expect that middle aged men make up the majority of motorcyclists so it make sense that middle aged men have the most accidents.

For perspective ... what breed of dog is implicated in most dog bite incidents?

The answer is .... labradors. Not because they are dangerous ... but because there's so damned many of the fuckers! Just like us middle aged men of the two wheeled brigade.

Concur. It's not particularly enlightening in such a narrow context.

[Ocean1]

In my unscientific opinion based on the percentage of people with grey hair at bike race meetings, I would expect that middle aged men make up the majority of motorcyclists so it make sense that middle aged men have the most accidents.

Don't have the numbers in front of me but you're right, there's a huge hump in the riding age demographic graph. More than I'd thought, and I'd noticed the same things you had out on the road.

What is interesting though is the inference that because we cost more in terms of remuneration payout we're less entitled to either ride bikes or expect ACC cover.

[rocketman1]

Statistics like this are only useful alongside other data ... specifically in this case, how many people ride in each age group. In my unscientific opinion based on the percentage of people with grey hair at bike race meetings, I would expect that middle aged men make up the majority of motorcyclists so it make sense that middle aged men have the most accidents.

For perspective ... what breed of dog is implicated in most dog bite incidents?

The answer is .... labradors. Not because they are dangerous ... but because there's so damned many of the fuckers! Just like us middle aged men of the two wheeled brigade.

Agree with you . It is an unbalanced arguement.

[Duncan74]

What is interesting though is the inference that because we cost more in terms of remuneration payout we're less entitled to either ride bikes or expect ACC cover.

In other taxation systems then the income related tax would offset the increased payouts, but as ACC is on vehicles, then the only way you could attempt to proxy that would be to charge ACC levy based on value of bike, and even that would be way off.

I guess you could take the interpretation you have from the article, but I thought it provided clear justification for continued funding of Ride Forever.

Someone above made a comment (in jest) about restricting us mid life crisis riders to LAMS machines. Now clearly that's not going to happen as a blanket, but you can see some merit in considering restricting people that have not ridden for 15 years from when they sold the bike aged 25 to LAMs and for 6 months. Note the 'some merit'. Note saying this would prevent all deaths or would be necessary to all.

There's some interesting stuff on http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/statistics/ in relation to where the money is spent. I'm not convinced by the data in some of the cycling tables, but the sporting spreadsheet was interesting. Motorcycling much higher than rugby which I didn't expect, I had wrongly thought the volume of claims would offset the severity of motorcycling claims. And I'm not sure I've seen an equivalent to ride forever for netball despite being right up there in $ per annum.

Looking forward to seeing 2015 and the cost of my ankle injury / treatment / rehab from a running injury. By far the biggest drain I've ever been on the state since leaving university 20 years back. Ironically, the inability to drive (right foot) and the desire to prevent being a bludger off ACC for taxis to get to work is what made me get my bike license....

[Ocean1]

In other taxation systems then the income related tax would offset the increased payouts, but as ACC is on vehicles, then the only way you could attempt to proxy that would be to charge ACC levy based on value of bike, and even that would be way off.

I guess you could take the interpretation you have from the article, but I thought it provided clear justification for continued funding of Ride Forever.

Is the ACC component of bike registration used to cover renumeration loss?

I rather thought that it would be the employer and employee levies, which are relative to earnings. Not, I hasten to add that I think rich pricks should automatically be expected to pay more, they do so almost across the board wrt value received in return.

And let's not forget that ACC was set up to cover everyone, regardless of the ability to pay. Or does that feature only cover those that can't pay?


Someone above made a comment (in jest) about restricting us mid life crisis riders to LAMS machines. Now clearly that's not going to happen as a blanket, but you can see some merit in considering restricting people that have not ridden for 15 years from when they sold the bike aged 25 to LAMs and for 6 months. Note the 'some merit'. Note saying this would prevent all deaths or would be necessary to all.

Some merit for ACC.

None whatsoever for those who simply want to make their own decisions without interference.

[HenryDorsetCase]

What is interesting though is the inference that because we cost more in terms of remuneration payout we're less entitled to either ride bikes or expect ACC cover.

In my view it is an exercise in victim blaming. The next step is pogroms, book burnings and lynchings.

My questions also revolve around why: why is this in the news now? whose agenda does it promote?


I will nail my colours to the mast here and declare a bias: I loathe this current government. But the point is: the idea of ACC is that it is a "no fault"s system and we as a country have spent a large amount of time and effort and money to develop it and nurture it. Singling out groups (as this does) is to undermine the principles of that system.

The interesting thing to me is that rugby (followed by netball) costs the country the most in sports injuries every year by a long way: but is it singled out in that way? of course not.

Fuckers. All of them.

[Old Steve]

"But the most costly claims are for the older riders because they're on the open road, they're going faster, they earn more so their compensation claims are higher."

But aren't those higher earning riders paying more tax? So the money is going into the Govt coffers by some means, even if its not direct to ACC through the vehicle and fuel levies.

On the Prorider Silver course I did, we were told that younger sports bike riders had the higher incidence of crashes on a % basis, followed by scooter riders.

Its only the earning power of older riders which distorts the ACC payments, small proportion of crashes but compensation for large earnings.

And this older rider did do six months on a LAMS bike, 20 months even, and a 250 cc cruiser as well.

[Ocean1]

In my view it is an exercise in victim blaming. The next step is pogroms, book burnings and lynchings.

My questions also revolve around why: why is this in the news now? whose agenda does it promote?


I will nail my colours to the mast here and declare a bias: I loathe this current government. But the point is: the idea of ACC is that it is a "no fault"s system and we as a country have spent a large amount of time and effort and money to develop it and nurture it. Singling out groups (as this does) is to undermine the principles of that system.

The interesting thing to me is that rugby (followed by netball) costs the country the most in sports injuries every year by a long way: but is it singled out in that way? of course not.

Fuckers. All of them.

Does anyone who rides a bike on the road and who gets injured have much of a claim to victimhood?

And I think the motivation for past and probably this latest pogrom is cost related, not "class" related.

Policy by accountant. The sort mash-up not acceptable by left or right.

[Chancebmx25]

Fuck y'all. Time to ban MURDERCYCLES.


http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/middle-aged-men-top-acc-motorcycle-claims-2016042316#axzz46dcRciDu


did you leave your Vagina at home?

[Duncan74]

Is the ACC component of bike registration used to cover renumeration loss?

I rather thought that it would be the employer and employee levies, which are relative to earnings. Not, I hasten to add that I think rich pricks should automatically be expected to pay more, they do so almost across the board wrt value received in return.

And let's not forget that ACC was set up to cover everyone, regardless of the ability to pay. Or does that feature only cover those that can't pay?




I thought that too (would be from the earnings component), but it's not. For motor vehicle accidents then it's all from the ACC part of the rego. The opposite to the concept of the rich being expected to pay more is that those on lower salaries are actually subsidising the cover for those on higher salary. As the cover we get as individuals is limited to 80% of wages, then someone on, let's say $130k who pays their motorcycle ACC levy is getting a lot better 'value' than someone earning $60k. Most insurance is charged as a function of risk and benefit.


Earners’ Account

Levies are paid to the Earners’ Account by everyone in the paid workforce. If you’re an employee, your earner’s levy is deducted from your gross pay along with your PAYE tax. If you’re self-employed, we send you an invoice.

This account covers claims for people in paid employment who are injured outside of work, eg on the sports field or at home, unless the injury is related to a motor vehicle accident on a public road (these injuries are covered by the Motor Vehicle Account).

[Voltaire]

In my view it is an exercise in victim blaming. The next step is pogroms, book burnings and lynchings.

My questions also revolve around why: why is this in the news now? whose agenda does it promote?


I will nail my colours to the mast here and declare a bias: I loathe this current government. But the point is: the idea of ACC is that it is a "no fault"s system and we as a country have spent a large amount of time and effort and money to develop it and nurture it. Singling out groups (as this does) is to undermine the principles of that system.

The interesting thing to me is that rugby (followed by netball) costs the country the most in sports injuries every year by a long way: but is it singled out in that way? of course not.

Fuckers. All of them.

I'm for a bit of book burning get rid of all those books about cars and motorcycles that I drag from house to house.

I'm not a big fan of the current Govt, but given the choice of what else is on offer.

The current system of National and Labour date back to the 1930's, its about time they got the same treatment everything else has got in modern times.

Why the fuck do we pay the opposition to sit there and bleat for 3 years.... just have MP's, we vote for them on line and the top 50 become the Govt, much like the X Factor but

without the talent.

Rugby will cost a lot long term with alzheimer's.

[Duncan74]

Some more 'facts'. Not sure if they do add context, or simply more points on which to hang any particular narrative you wish...

http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-15.pdf


From Figure 10, those aged 45 years and older travel furthest per rider per year, with the largest amount of travel on the open road. For this age group, 81 percent of their travel is on the open road.

So travel more - and risk is generally a function of distance travelled (time exposed to danger). The problem noted in the report is that much of the data comes from the household travel survey that is only a record of two days activity, and with 'leisure' a key reason for motorcycling then the chances are that many regular motorcyclists responding didn't happen to ride on either of those two days.

So a lot of the data ends up skewed towards the kids going to school - short trips, local, lower speed urban environments.

From :- http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Motorcycles-15.pdf

Then look at figure 2. I'm sure there must be something else, but aside from "Long way round" being aired at the start of that rise, then it's pretty dramatic.

Final thought. Based on the license class of rider in crash data, then I'm tempted not to get my full and stay on restricted. Seems safer....:crazy:

[slofox]

Doesn't apply to me 'cause I'm not middle-aged. I'm old. And earn fuck all.

[swbarnett]

In other taxation systems then the income related tax would offset the increased payouts, but as ACC is on vehicles, then the only way you could attempt to proxy that would be to charge ACC levy based on value of bike

There's a much simpler way. Take all ACC funding from income tax.

[Ocean1]

I thought that too (would be from the earnings component), but it's not. For motor vehicle accidents then it's all from the ACC part of the rego. The opposite to the concept of the rich being expected to pay more is that those on lower salaries are actually subsidising the cover for those on higher salary.

That makes some sort of bazar sense, not only is the one tax which can easily be reconciled to the benefits accrued to the tax payer... not.

But it reverses the normal trend and taxes those earning less the same as rich pricks. :facepalm:

[Spearfish]

That makes some sort of bazar sense, not only is the one tax which can easily be reconciled to the benefits accrued to the tax payer... not.

But it reverses the normal trend and taxes those earning less the same as rich pricks. :facepalm:


Is it going to be hard to get upset paying the same ACC as a "rich prick" for the same cover to do the same thing if you want to pay as little as a car rego in a level no fault playing field?

[neels]

So what it's really saying is that people who are successful and have high incomes, and have therefore been making a significant tax contribution and paying considerable ACC levies in addition to the specific one also attached to their choice of recreation, cost ACC the most money when they are legitimately entitled to have their income covered after an accident.

The point being?

Let's go after the rich horsey riding people next, they're well up the list of ACC costs, and don't even pay a specific levy for their choice of recreation......

[Duncan74]

Is it going to be hard to get upset paying the same ACC as a "rich prick" for the same cover to do the same thing if you want to pay as little as a car rego in a level no fault playing field?

Thing is, and I say this as someone on the receiving side of this equation, the higher earners get MORE from the ACC than the lower income. From memory it's capped about 130k, but you get 80% of income on ACC. So for the same $250 per year ACC contribution, people with bigger incomes get more benefit.

However. Having lived in the UK where with no ACC and compulsory insurance, then the cost of insurance was prohibitive for many people in relation to choice of vehicles. As a student I was quoted UKP2500 per year 3rd party for a ford sierra worth about that. :no:

[scumdog]

Luckily I'm past middle-age.


Just!:pinch:

[JimO]

i suspect motorcyclists numbers will dwindle as the old born agains off themselves on their bikes there wont be a influx of young fellers to take their place because the young fellers can buy a cheap turbo subaru to hoon in where as back in my day we couldnt afford a car and first transport was a road legal trail bike, followed by a string of bigger and faster road bikes until children/work/poverty forced us to stop riding until they bugger off leaving us $$$ to spend on 2 wheels

[Swoop]

In my view it is an exercise in victim blaming. The next step is pogroms, book burnings and lynchings.

My questions also revolve around why: why is this in the news now?
Simple. No pointy-ball games currently being played to amuse the moronic masses.

did you leave your Vagina at home?
Since you are new here, your sarcasm detection ability has still to leave its vagina.

[Chancebmx25]

Simple. No pointy-ball games currently being played to amuse the moronic masses.

Since you are new here, your sarcasm detection ability has still to leave its vagina.

[emoji106]

[Oakie]

i suspect motorcyclists numbers will dwindle as the old born agains off themselves on their bikes there wont be a influx of young fellers to take their place because the young fellers can buy a cheap turbo subaru to hoon in I'm pretty sure you are correct.


where as back in my day we couldnt afford a car and first transport was a road legal trail bike, followed by a string of bigger and faster road bikes until children/work/poverty forced us to stop riding until they bugger off leaving us $$$ to spend on 2 wheels Yep, you nailed my last 38 years exactly right.

[Voltaire]

i suspect motorcyclists numbers will dwindle as the old born agains off themselves on their bikes there wont be a influx of young fellers to take their place because the young fellers can buy a cheap turbo subaru to hoon in where as back in my day we couldnt afford a car and first transport was a road legal trail bike, followed by a string of bigger and faster road bikes until children/work/poverty forced us to stop riding until they bugger off leaving us $$$ to spend on 2 wheels

I used to ride my bike to work, or my old Electrician Van that I still had....then sadly I got promoted when the Manager left....had to buy a cage....

.....now I drive a Subaru 2.5 Manual Turbo :woohoo:. 230 HP, if I want the bike experience I turn off the stereo and wind all the windows down :2thumbsup, wearing a suit does not

have to be boring.

I do however have the hots for the new Triumph Thruxton, they have heated grips.

[AllanB]

Some years back a government tried privatising ACC - failed miserably.

Alternative is you must carry some form of medical insurance that will cover you if you have a self cause accident (I have two insurances - it's a Friday rant thing - work pays for one I'll never use but the arses won't drop that and contribute to the private one I've had for decades).

Or we get to sue the shit of other road users if they are proved to cause the accident.

Side note. Some years back a guy I know purchased a new Harley - last time he had ridden a bike was his XR250 ...... back in 1985 or something.

Still, absolutely entitled to. Same as a 17 year old kid with a licence can drive a Porsche 911.

Government. Don't care too much about the party name, more the performance. I'm glad the current one was and is in charge during the Global Financial Crisis. All Auntie Helen did for me during 9 years is continue to increase my taxes. I hardly feel well off :motu:

[Spearfish]

Thing is, and I say this as someone on the receiving side of this equation, the higher earners get MORE from the ACC than the lower income. From memory it's capped about 130k, but you get 80% of income on ACC. So for the same $250 per year ACC contribution, people with bigger incomes get more benefit.



Not really, they just get to be in around about the same place they were before they needed ACC support like anyone else, that was supposed to be part of the no fault bit of ACC, its only recently we have become socially engineered to be used to feeling like one group is taking from another. It was also why (like it or not) a criminal was also covered to a point.

If its capped at 130k then its the same for anyone based on need, if you need more than that then you have to make it up yourself.

[Duncan74]

Not really, they just get to be in around about the same place they were before they needed ACC support like anyone else, that was supposed to be part of the no fault bit of ACC, its only recently we have become socially engineered to be used to feeling like one group is taking from another. It was also why (like it or not) a criminal was also covered to a point.

If its capped at 130k then its the same for anyone based on need, if you need more than that then you have to make it up yourself.

We may be saying the same, in terms of providing for need, but of course one person only gets $40k if they are unable to work for the year, someone else 130k, both having paid the same 'premium'.

[skippa1]

We may be saying the same, in terms of providing for need, but of course one person only gets $40k if they are unable to work for the year, someone else 130k, both having paid the same 'premium'.
And what.....?

[Spearfish]

We may be saying the same, in terms of providing for need, but of course one person only gets $40k if they are unable to work for the year, someone else 130k, both having paid the same 'premium'.

Your right.
Same across the risk groupings in ACC, a bike can carry one or two rich people a people mover can carry 7 what has the cheaper ACC component in the rego?


The best way around it is to get plenty of riding in with a few good long runs and think to yourself while rolling along- the ACC per km is getting cheaper and cheaper:yes:

[Voltaire]

Once us Baby Boomers move on the large capacity bikes that replaced the 50HP British bikes and get all the finances moved into trusts the burden will move onto a different

department of the Govt and ACC will be all sorted ;)

[neels]

We may be saying the same, in terms of providing for need, but of course one person only gets $40k if they are unable to work for the year, someone else 130k, both having paid the same 'premium'.
Not quite the same premium....

The ACC levy for the motorcycle might be the same, the ACC levy based on income of 1.4% up to 120k or thereabouts is not, so if someone has been paying more from their income surely they deserve more compensation for loss of income?

http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/different-income-taxed/salaries-wages/acc/iit-salaries-acc.html

Which then brings us to the question of how much are these wealthy motorcyclists subsidising everyone else's ACC costs for non motorcycle related claims, if the cost of their motorcycle related claims is being fully funded by the motorcycle levy. Where is the rest of their money being spent?

[Duncan74]

Not quite the same premium....

The ACC levy for the motorcycle might be the same, the ACC levy based on income of 1.4% up to 120k or thereabouts is not, so if someone has been paying more from their income surely they deserve more compensation for loss of income?

http://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax-individual/different-income-taxed/salaries-wages/acc/iit-salaries-acc.html

Which then brings us to the question of how much are these wealthy motorcyclists subsidising everyone else's ACC costs for non motorcycle related claims, if the cost of their motorcycle related claims is being fully funded by the motorcycle levy. Where is the rest of their money being spent?

Yup, but loss of income for a motorcycle accident doesn't come from the income based ACC levy, it's entirely from the motor vehicle levy. ACC operates completely separate accounts. There was a link earlier to the ACC page. The income related levy pays for all accident related wage compensation except those caused by a motor vehicle accident.

Pedantic point I know, but seems to have piqued my OCD all the same...

[jonnyk5614]

We all need to stop winging and get a quote for UK third party insurance on a bike half the size we ride. That will be at least triple your ACC cover and not even cover your own single vehicle "honey I fucked up" crash.

Then you have ask if the 2 coffees a week we drop on ACC is worth:
Full crash medical insurance,
80% income cover,
compensation,
home and vehicle adaptions,
Two free riding training sessions a year.

So bear all this in mind and whether, for all its faults, is it worth it?

Hell yeah it is....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[skippa1]

Yup, but loss of income for a motorcycle accident doesn't come from the income based ACC levy, it's entirely from the motor vehicle levy. ACC operates completely separate accounts. There was a link earlier to the ACC page. The income related levy pays for all accident related wage compensation except those caused by a motor vehicle accident.

Pedantic point I know, but seems to have piqued my OCD all the same...
Why dont you apply your OCD to neels last sentance as well, give ya something to do

[skippa1]

We all need to stop winging and get a quote for UK third party insurance on a bike half the size we ride. That will be at least triple your ACC cover and not even cover your own single vehicle "honey I fucked up" crash.

Then you have ask if the 2 coffees a week we drop on ACC is worth:
Full crash medical insurance,
80% income cover,
compensation,
home and vehicle adaptions,
Two free riding training sessions a year.

So bear all this in mind and whether, for all its faults, is it worth it?

Hell yeah it is....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hell yes...some dont seem to appreciate this fact

[Moi]

We all need to stop winging and get a quote for UK third party insurance on a bike half the size we ride. That will be at least triple your ACC cover and not even cover your own single vehicle "honey I fucked up" crash.

Then you have ask if the 2 coffees a week we drop on ACC is worth:
Full crash medical insurance,
80% income cover,
compensation,
home and vehicle adaptions,
Two free riding training sessions a year.

So bear all this in mind and whether, for all its faults, is it worth it?

Hell yeah it is....


Thank you for another perspective, we need to remember that the ACC system may not be perfect but it is certainly a hell of a lot better than anything else on offer anywhere else...

[Duncan74]

Why dont you apply your OCD to neels last sentance as well, give ya something to do

Well that's simple. Assuming that people are as likely to be injured doing non work 'stuff' regardless to income, then it all nets out - those that pay more get more, those that pay less get less. That's all fair.

[skippa1]

Well that's simple. Assuming that people are as likely to be injured doing non work 'stuff' regardless to income, then it all nets out - those that pay more get more, those that pay less get less. That's all fair.
Jesus fuck boy.....you need to get a new hobby

[actungbaby]

They will probably decide to make us mature riders have to ride LAMS bikes .....

It's typical low level news really - whooo-do-doooo, So how much does it cost to cover some of the car crash victims?

mature you mean old fozzils or old prick bikers we should join grey power . i call out elder abuse

get winston on are side have gold card for OPB card 10 % of at super cheap

[actungbaby]

Doesn't apply to me 'cause I'm not middle-aged. I'm old. And earn fuck all.

ya old git yeah keep of the side walk too ;-) and leave old ladys alone while your at it .

i earn f@# all too so we have to take up moto cross to keep up with rich old f@#$$ traveeling on open road how dare them.

we go on the train tracks much safer ;-)

[swbarnett]

We all need to stop winging and get a quote for UK third party insurance on a bike half the size we ride. That will be at least triple your ACC cover and not even cover your own single vehicle "honey I fucked up" crash.

Then you have ask if the 2 coffees a week we drop on ACC is worth:
Full crash medical insurance,
80% income cover,
compensation,
home and vehicle adaptions,
Two free riding training sessions a year.

So bear all this in mind and whether, for all its faults, is it worth it?

Hell yeah it is....
And I would have to agree. However, this is not the salient point.

The salient point is that ACC is supposed to be a "NO FAULT" system. I won't be happy until ALL ACC funding is taken directly from income tax. This is the ONLY way to bring equity back into the system.

[WNJ]

While in the same age group it has been said its the mid life crisis (returning after 20 or more years) riders thinking they can relive their youth that come to grief the most. Maybe its those riders as well as those at fault who should be paying higher ACC premiums.

Are there specifics for returning riders ?

[swbarnett]

It is not a no fault system
I agree that the way it is (mis)managed is based on fault. However, this is completely against the principle on which it was founded.

[WristTwister]

According to the article, it's because you middle-aged mid-life crisis-suffers all get paid so much that ACC wage compensation costs are higher. Younger riders cost less in compensation because they earn less.

[swbarnett]

The founding principle was obviously not written into law otherwise the current imbalance in ACC fees would have been challenged in court by now.
I didn't mean to imply that there's a legal requirement for it to be so. Just that this is how it was supposed to be. If the founders had been a little more paranoid then maybe there would be.

[swbarnett]

According to the article, it's because you middle-aged mid-life crisis-suffers all get paid so much that ACC wage compensation costs are higher. Younger riders cost less in compensation because they earn less.
Exactly. And if ACC was funded from income tax the payouts would indeed be proportional to contribution.

[neels]

While in the same age group it has been said its the mid life crisis (returning after 20 or more years) riders thinking they can relive their youth that come to grief the most. Maybe its those riders as well as those at fault who should be paying higher ACC premiums.Fuck off, i pay plenty already for my own and others choice of recreational activities, as well as being singled out and paying an extra levy for one of them, without dickheads like you suggesting I should pay even more because of other peoples fuckups, generalisations like that are what the powers that be love as an excuse to gather revenue

[AllanB]

Exactly. And if ACC was funded from income tax the payouts would indeed be proportional to contribution.

What so the more you earn the more you pay in ACC ? A specific ACC levy?

Bugger that. Fuckers take too much tax off me now as it is - every pay rise is a laugh by the time it's taxed. A bonus looks great until it is culled.

They could do that without to much complaining if ACC was just funded out of the big income tax coffers - everyone pays for the privilege of the system. More you earn the more you'll contribute by default.


Off note - some years back Helen Clark ran an election with a promise of not tax increases - then added levies during the term claiming they were not new taxes. Look up the definition of 'Levy'. Bloody politicians.

[neels]

It would be interesting to know how many riders come to grief as a result of being under pressure to keep up on group rides and group rides can include far more than just middle aged riders.Are you ever going to give up flogging the skeletal remains of that particular horse? Dragging it into every thread is getting very boring

[nzspokes]

But if you have never stopped riding into the midlife crisis age group you are likely to be a safer rider than someone who starts out again at that age.

What a load of crap.

[SVboy]

I am guessing Cassandra keeps banging on about group rides because no one will ride with him. No surprises there then! Perhaps ACC should levy stupid riders, in which case Katrina will be picking up most of NZs motorcycle levies!

[Akzle]

It would be interesting to know how many riders come to grief as a result of being under pressure to keep up on group rides and group rides can include far more than just middle aged riders.

just as an exercise in futility:
try not to apply your ineptitude, wilfull ignorance, persistent victimhood and untelligence to everyone else with a motorcycle.

[Maha]

Are you ever going to give up flogging the skeletal remains of that particular horse? Dragging it into every thread is getting very boring

To be fair neels, I would suggest that a large percentage of the 53 accidents last year resulting in a death, involved two or more riders riding together.
The cause of the accidents will vary.

One particular group ride we attended had two accidents, one was the ride organiser and the other was a young chap 'trying to keep up'. Both survived.
Same geographical area a year or two later, a returning rider (Father of two)on his first group ride lost his life 'trying to keep up'.

It's a strange phenomenon and it does happen.

[Voltaire]

Out of interest what happens when a Professional Rugby player is off with injuries ? ACC at 80% of his contract rate?

I'd say statistically Mid life Crisis people probably have the least Rugby related claims :rolleyes:, and most likely least car related injuries

[SVboy]

[QUOTE=cassina;1130966222]The only people who attack my view of group riders are group riders themselves who have just so far got lucky.

Do you read your own posts before submitting them or is the pressure to keep up too much?

[nzspokes]

What has been said in articles I have read, a big killer of midlife crisis riders comes from the much higher power from modern bikes of the same cc as they rode 20 years or more ago. You are far more likely to cope with high powered bikes if you had never stopped riding in the first place. If you dont believe my claim about what I have read google Mid Life Crisis Motorcycle Rider Crashes.

Returning riders are far more open to rider training than those that have been riding the whole time thinking they are good at it. But they keep crashing. Like you.

[Maha]

The only people who attack my view of group riders are group riders themselves who have just so far got lucky. There was a public group ride yesterday and despite the best effort of the organizer to give a message about safety at the start there were lots of multivehicle overtakes and one guy almost got taken out during an attempt at a multivehice overtake when the car in front decided to overtake and did not notice him trying to overtake. There have been posts by otheres on KB about the dangers of group riding too. You and I are not lone voices on here at all. If there are accicdent statistics that are group ride specific they need to be published perhaps. The only thing is that any rider in such a crash will never admit they were riding under pressure to keep up.

Though this thread is not strictly about group ride ethics, they certainly have an impact on the biker death rate. A group ride is not always 20-30 bikes, at times the number is much less. In general, the smaller the number (in a group situation) the better. When we used to run our group rides, I would split the number into three groups and each group would leave in 5 min intervals.

[neels]

one guy almost got taken out during an attempt at a multivehice overtake when the car in front decided to overtake and did not notice him trying to overtake.
You do realise this could happen to someone riding by themselves as well, right? Behavior of idiot motorists isn't determined by the number of bikes on the road at any given time.


When we used to run our group rides, I would split the number into three groups and each group would leave in 5 min intervals.
There is some sanity in this approach, as well as not having bollocks rules like not overtaking the person in front, ride leader determines the speed etc etc.

A group of people can ride to the same destination without being within touching distance of each other the whole way, and therein lies the problem with applying the term 'group ride' to any group of people riding to the same place at the same time, and labeling it as dangerous.

[george formby]

following too close can be just as dangerous.

Two bikes went down, very nastily, here at the weekend. I live across from the hospital and every I time I hear the rescue helicopter come in I get the shits. Only reason i can think of for both bikes going down is lack of following distance. I'm still not sure why the accident happened in the first place.
From what I have read one of the riders fits this threads profile.

[Maha]

A group of people can ride to the same destination without being within touching distance of each other the whole way, and therein lies the problem with applying the term 'group ride' to any group of people riding to the same place at the same time, and labeling it as dangerous.

They start out as group ride (I use that term loosely) because they quickly fragment into a free for all, slower riders being carved up etc, why don't those who want to ride in that manner set out first?. I know of one guy who loved nothing more than to sit back, carve through the pack and then park up until everyone went passed, then do it all again..On one ride, a Ulysses member/mentor suggested that SH22 is good to place for who want to race...I learned early on not to associate myself with any large group rides after the first two or three because of the points I have mentioned previously and in this post.

[skippa1]

It would be interesting and somebody here may be able to tell me....
how many serious accidents or fatalities involving motorcycles are initiated by the actions of a motorcyclist as opposed to the actions of another vehicle, truck, car bus whatever......

[pritch]

From what I have read one of the riders fits this threads profile.

This thread was about born-again riders and their impact on ACC payments. Well, it was until Cassina came long and confused the issue - again.
Next change: pet food?

Note: I have Cassina on ignore but when you guys quote her I get to see that there is no need to change that setting.

[Maha]

Even if statistics were to prove that riding in a group was more dangerous than being a returning rider ACC premiums will not be coming down due to any finding.

It's one size fits all. It is up to the 'all' to contribute to the lowering of ACC levy's imposed on the 'all' because of the actions of a relativity small percentage. Sad but true.

[swbarnett]

What so the more you earn the more you pay in ACC ? A specific ACC levy?
Not at all. No levies is what I'm advocating.


Bugger that. Fuckers take too much tax off me now as it is - every pay rise is a laugh by the time it's taxed. A bonus looks great until it is culled.
Agreed


They could do that without to much complaining if ACC was just funded out of the big income tax coffers - everyone pays for the privilege of the system. More you earn the more you'll contribute by default.
Sorry if I wasn't clear but this is exactly what I'm advocating. NO levies whatsoever (I would remove all flat taxes like rates etc.).

[bogan]

What so the more you earn the more you pay in ACC ? A specific ACC levy?

Bugger that. Fuckers take too much tax off me now as it is - every pay rise is a laugh by the time it's taxed. A bonus looks great until it is culled.

They could do that without to much complaining if ACC was just funded out of the big income tax coffers - everyone pays for the privilege of the system. More you earn the more you'll contribute by default.


Off note - some years back Helen Clark ran an election with a promise of not tax increases - then added levies during the term claiming they were not new taxes. Look up the definition of 'Levy'. Bloody politicians.

I could have sworn I just paid an acc levy that calculated based on my income... Earner levy I believe it is called (companies pay into it directly, 'on behalf' of their employees). It almost makes sense for all lost income due to being injured, to come from the fund you pay into with income; then just leave activity specific levies like the motor vehicle account to par the cost of treatment.

[Bass]

It would be interesting and somebody here may be able to tell me....
how many serious accidents or fatalities involving motorcycles are initiated by the actions of a motorcyclist as opposed to the actions of another vehicle, truck, car bus whatever......

The way that the stats are recorded makes it impossible to be absolutely accurate, but in round figures between 30% and 45% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle events. Of the remainder, most of which involve bike vs car, about 70% have the primary fault attributed to the car driver. I say primary fault because in very many of these cases, the rider was doing something which contributed toward the prang.

[skippa1]

The way that the stats are recorded makes it impossible to be absolutely accurate, but in round figures between 30% and 45% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle events. Of the remainder, most of which involve bike vs car, about 70% have the primary fault attributed to the car driver. I say primary fault because in very many of these cases, the rider was doing something which contributed toward the prang.
Hmmmm interesting.
i guess when it all boils down, no matter who is at fault, on a bike you are less likely to to come out unscathed. You take the precautions, wear the gear, try to learn from any training etc but the outcomes of an impact, regardless of fault, can be very serious.
The rider type targeted as the at risk group must be based on statistics, i wonder if similar profiling is done on the 70% of the 55% that have the primary fault in initiating accidents?

[Duncan74]

I could have sworn I just paid an acc levy that calculated based on my income... Earner levy I believe it is called (companies pay into it directly, 'on behalf' of their employees). It almost makes sense for all lost income due to being injured, to come from the fund you pay into with income; then just leave activity specific levies like the motor vehicle account to par the cost of treatment.

As linked earlier, you do pay earners levy. That is a fund that ACC uses for paying any non work accident, except those as a result of a motor vehicle crash. Work related injuries are funded from the employer levy. And anything as a result of motorvehicle crash is from the fee that is part of the rego payment (or paid at the same time).

Regarding the 'returning rider' phenomenon and lack of data, then I wonder if there's a way of having an annual 'license' charge for acc. Advantage of this is that then you pay to use, and if you've 2,3, N+1 bikes, you still only pay for the one contribution. Equally, if people are taking 20 years off riding then they can put their bike license on hold, and then on return do 6 months of LAMS and a silver course to reactivate. Biggest issue is the likely abuse with the police needing to stop bikes to check licenses whereas ANPR can currently confirm the vehicle (bike) is registered. As opposed to the bike next to me yesterday with a rego that expired September last year with the rider with no protective gear other than a motorcross helmet. Sigh.

But as said, ACC is a bloody cheap insurance. My private income insurance which has ACC offset (ie excludes anything that is covered by ACC, so really just natural illness) is over $100 a month.

[AllanB]

What he said re earners levy. Office job like mine is cheap (but ignores the mental impact of my stressful job!!!) - tree feller guy pays a fortune.

I'd be very happy with a global ACC funding out of income tax. I have no idea really but I suspect it would be no more than my current earner levy and combined vehicle ACC levy. I may be wrong. Government plays it right they could earn more and blame less.

[Oakie]

. I won't be happy until ALL ACC funding is taken directly from income tax. This is the ONLY way to bring equity back into the system.

But then only people who earn would pay for it. That's not equitable...

[bogan]

As linked earlier, you do pay earners levy. That is a fund that ACC uses for paying any non work accident, except those as a result of a motor vehicle crash. Work related injuries are funded from the employer levy. And anything as a result of motorvehicle crash is from the fee that is part of the rego payment (or paid at the same time).

Perhaps I was being overly subtle, I know how things 'work' currently, but cannot fathom why payouts for lost earnings, don't come from the earning pay-ins.

[swbarnett]

But then only people who earn would pay for it. That's not equitable...
Roughly speaking, earn $x, pay y% of $x in tax. This is equitable.

Just make x = 0. Still equitable.

[Banditbandit]

Perhaps I was being overly subtle, I know how things 'work' currently, but cannot fathom why payouts for lost earnings, don't come from the earning pay-ins.

ACC actually invest the money - and then pay out from what that money earns ...

At the end of 2014 ACC had $27BILLION (yes billion) invested ..

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/prd_ctrb110932

They state they set the levy fee based on what they think they will have to pay out - and how much money they can earn from investing the fees ...

[bogan]

ACC actually invest the money - and then pay out from what that money earns ...

At the end of 2014 ACC had $27BILLION (yes billion) invested ..

http://www.acc.co.nz/about-acc/overview-of-acc/prd_ctrb110932

They state they set the levy fee based on what they think they will have to pay out - and how much money they can earn from investing the fees ...

Irregardlessly, it still would make sense for earnings payouts, to come from earnings pay-ins, not from the MVA

[Banditbandit]

Irregardlessly, it still would make sense for earnings payouts, to come from earnings pay-ins, not from the MVA

That would be too obvious for the bureaucrats in Wellingtown ..

[ozjohnno]

I live in victoria australia and we have had 28 riders die since jan 1. No sign of them banning bikes here

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

[AD345]

I live in victoria australia and we have had 28 riders die since jan 1. No sign of them banning bikes here

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk

Maybe...

THAT is the sign

[Berries]

It would be interesting and somebody here may be able to tell me....
how many serious accidents or fatalities involving motorcycles are initiated by the actions of a motorcyclist as opposed to the actions of another vehicle, truck, car bus whatever......

The way that the stats are recorded makes it impossible to be absolutely accurate, but in round figures between 30% and 45% of motorcycle fatalities are single vehicle events. Of the remainder, most of which involve bike vs car, about 70% have the primary fault attributed to the car driver. I say primary fault because in very many of these cases, the rider was doing something which contributed toward the prang.
Well here are some sobering figures. Last year there were 52 fatal crashes and 384 serious injury crashes involving motorcyclists. 204 of the total 436 crashes only involved the bike, that’s 47%.

I have always followed the third/third/third philosophy in that one third of crashes are the rider on his own, a third are the riders fault in a multi vehicle crash and a third were caused by the other party. Might have to change my mind after looking at this small sample. Out of interest I have had a closer look at the 28 fatal crashes where another party was involved and fuck me no wonder ACC have it in for us.

In seven of the 28 fatal crashes involving a second vehicle the rider was not at fault. In a couple you could say that the rider might have been able to do something about it but unless you were there you don’t know. Wrong time, wrong place etc etc. I am familiar with one of these crashes and the guy had no chance.

In three crashes the other party was at fault for pulling out on the rider at an intersection but if you are doing 50km/h over the speed limit at the time you haven’t really left them much chance, or if you are riding at night with no lights.

What surprised me was that in 17 of the 28 crashes the other party was minding their own business. The most common crash type was crossing the centreline on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic (all on dry roads) followed by overtaking on crests or left hand curves straight in to the path of an oncoming vehicle. There were also a few rear end crashes in the mix where the other vehicle looked to be doing everything by the book before being slammed in to.

I was tempted to have a look at the serious injury crashes as well to see if the same pattern emerged but you quickly lose any enthusiasm when you see how easily people are willing to throw their lives away doing dumb shit.

Anyroad, don’t shoot the messenger, just putting it here for discussion. Data comes from the national crash database.

[skippa1]

Well here are some sobering figures. Last year there were 52 fatal crashes and 384 serious injury crashes involving motorcyclists. 204 of the total 436 crashes only involved the bike, that’s 47%.

I have always followed the third/third/third philosophy in that one third of crashes are the rider on his own, a third are the riders fault in a multi vehicle crash and a third were caused by the other party. Might have to change my mind after looking at this small sample. Out of interest I have had a closer look at the 28 fatal crashes where another party was involved and fuck me no wonder ACC have it in for us.

In seven of the 28 fatal crashes involving a second vehicle the rider was not at fault. In a couple you could say that the rider might have been able to do something about it but unless you were there you don’t know. Wrong time, wrong place etc etc. I am familiar with one of these crashes and the guy had no chance.

In three crashes the other party was at fault for pulling out on the rider at an intersection but if you are doing 50km/h over the speed limit at the time you haven’t really left them much chance, or if you are riding at night with no lights.

What surprised me was that in 17 of the 28 crashes the other party was minding their own business. The most common crash type was crossing the centreline on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic (all on dry roads) followed by overtaking on crests or left hand curves straight in to the path of an oncoming vehicle. There were also a few rear end crashes in the mix where the other vehicle looked to be doing everything by the book before being slammed in to.

I was tempted to have a look at the serious injury crashes as well to see if the same pattern emerged but you quickly lose any enthusiasm when you see how easily people are willing to throw their lives away doing dumb shit.

Anyroad, don’t shoot the messenger, just putting it here for discussion. Data comes from the national crash database.
It is interesting. I Am now part of the serious injury stats for this year and unfortunatly will be significatly affected for the balance of my life. The whole ACC, at fault or not, cost to provide ACC help vs private insurance, 80% of wages vs levy paid via rego vs a bigger tax......and on it goes, directly impacts me (and those that pay their regos..).......
right about now I am pretty pleased I paid my levys, also grateful for The levies paid by others. Incidentally, breathing is pretty awesome too right now.

[AllanB]

It is interesting. I Am now part of the serious injury stats for this year and unfortunatly will be significatly affected for the balance of my life. The whole ACC, at fault or not, cost to provide ACC help vs private insurance, 80% of wages vs levy paid via rego vs a bigger tax......and on it goes, directly impacts me (and those that pay their regos..).......
right about now I am pretty pleased I paid my levys, also grateful for The levies paid by others. Incidentally, breathing is pretty awesome too right now.

Bloody Skippa coming on KB talking sense and proving the worth of the system ........ good on ya.

[Bass]

Well here are some sobering figures.

Thought you'd be along with some more accurate data eventually.

Sobering indeed - alarming even - indicates we are getting worse and by a big margin. However, small sample as you say.

Thanks for that

Would be really interested in that similar analysis of the serious injury stats.

[nzspokes]

when you see how easily people are willing to throw their lives away doing dumb shit.

Anyroad, don’t shoot the messenger, just putting it here for discussion. Data comes from the national crash database.

Which is why Im very cautious who I ride with these days. Nice data.

[mr bucketracer]

most bike riders are nutters on the road , trade the 1000 for a 50 guys (-;

[Maha]

Which is why Im very cautious who I ride with these days. Nice data.

So you'd be very familiar with the most common crash type, crossing the center line on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic all on dry roads.

[AllanB]

The most common crash type was crossing the centreline on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic (all on dry roads) followed by overtaking on crests or left hand curves straight in to the path of an oncoming vehicle.


All stuff you see frequently on the road. :facepalm: Left handers - over cooking it? Overtaking ......... mental stuff out there, I am frequently amazed how lucky some riders are.

[SVboy]

Which is why Im very cautious who I ride with these days. Nice data.

Can I suggest Cassina as your ideal riding buddy then? As long as you can resist the pressure to keep up.

[nzspokes]

So you'd be very familiar with the most common crash type, crossing the center line on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic all on dry roads.

Ive never had that crash. Neither will you now you cant ride any more.

[Maha]

Ive never had that crash. Neither will you now you cant ride any more.

I said you'd be familiar with, not had....not real smart are you?

...and why can't I ride anymore exactly?

[Madness]

...and why can't I ride anymore exactly?

Dodgy side-stand spring?

[nzspokes]

I said you'd be familiar with, not had....not real smart are you?

...and why can't I ride anymore exactly?

How many Ks have you done on your new bike? In how long?

[Maha]

How many Ks have you done on your new bike? In how long?

But why can't I ride? I haven't lost my license I have no broken bits, the bike is in perfect working order. A more intelligent answer is maybe that I don't ride as often as I use to. Saying I can't ride anymore ridiculous, even for someone like you.

[Maha]

Dodgy side-stand spring?

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh yes the probable cause of the most common crash type, crossing the center line on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic all on dry roads.

[nzspokes]

But why can't I ride? I haven't lost my license I have no broken bits, the bike is in perfect working order. A more intelligent answer is maybe that I don't ride as often as I use to. Saying I can't ride anymore ridiculous, even for someone like you.

Oh you forgot, again.

This may help. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/177872-Triumph-Tiger-SE

[Maha]

Oh you forgot, again.

This may help. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/177872-Triumph-Tiger-SE

Correct I am selling my bike, so fucking what? go to the head of the class but don't get comfortable.. I will be buying another.

[Katman]

Correct I am selling my bike, so fucking what? go to the head of the class but don't get comfortable.. I will be buying another.

Haven't you got any motel toilets to clean?

[Maha]

Haven't you got any motel toilets to clean?

Have staff to do that, actually we're in your town for the next week...bit chipper this morning but going to be a stunning day.

[Katman]

Have staff to do that, actually we're in your town for the next week...bit chipper this morning but going to be a stunning day.

You should call in. My 'mates' would love to meet you.

[Maha]

You should call in. My 'mates' would love to meet you.

Is that the Men in Leather Night at WOT Motors? not my thing you understand Steve.

[mr bucketracer]

Some certainly are when they go on a group ride. It does not appear there is any data of what percentage of deaths and serious injury are linked to group rides. All those on here that go on them will say riding in a group has nothing to do with it though.i have always left the race track for racing , and the road for just a speed limit ride , i did go once in a group ride , never again !!! lol

[pritch]

There are group rides and group rides. The big public ones such as the Christmas toy run (if that still exists since second-hand toys were banned on health and safety grounds) and the Easter Egg runs are best avoided. Sadly too many people put their brain in neutral when they get in a big crowd and I don't want them anywhere near me.

[Katman]

not my thing you understand Steve.

Yeah, didn't think so.

Mouthing off on the internet's more your thing, innit?

[bogan]

Yeah, didn't think so.

Mouthing off on the internet's more your thing, innit?

Perhaps, were it just you, and at a more neutral location (service station forecourt perhaps?) there'd be less of an implication...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ox-jguIP-B4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Katman]

Perhaps, were it just you, and at a more neutral location (service station forecourt perhaps?) there'd be less of an implication...

What implication?

Mark loves to mouth off about some of my customers from the comfort of a keyboard. I'm just offering him the opportunity to do it to their faces.

[Maha]

What implication?

Mark loves to mouth off about some of my customers from the comfort of a keyboard. I'm just offering him the opportunity to do it to their faces.

One day about a year ago (ANZAC day or soon after) you twated on about a bunch of idiots disrupting an ANZAC ceremony and then went on to refer to them as your mates. Sad for you granted but time to move on Steve.

[nzspokes]

Can I suggest Cassina as your ideal riding buddy then? As long as you can resist the pressure to keep up.

Nah Im good bro.

[Katman]

One day about a year ago (ANZAC day or soon after) you twated on about a bunch of idiots disrupting an ANZAC ceremony and then went on to refer to them as your mates. Sad for you granted but time to move on Steve.

Don't make shit up Mark.

Your mrs twated on about "a bunch of idiots" and I referred to them as my customers.

Since then you've repeatedly mouthed off about them.

Now suddenly you want to move on?

You should probably ask Anne for your balls back.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174280-Harley-riding-fuckwits-being-their-usual-selves

[Maha]

Don't make shit up Mark.

You twated on about "a bunch of idiots" and I referred to them as my customers.

Since then you've repeatedly mouthed off about them.

Now suddenly you want to move on?

You should probably ask Anne for your balls back.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/174280-Harley-riding-fuckwits-being-their-usual-selves

:killingme...quite day? how about you pick up a broom and sweep all of your issues into the corner :baby:

I was implying for you to move on... the dog and bone does suit your personality but in this instance, it's laughable the lengths you are going too to prove your anemic point...and then supply a thread link where most who posted had the same thought :corn:

[jasonu]

You should call in. My 'mates' would love to meet you.

You mean those rude cunts that shat all over the ANZAC dawn parade?321218

[Maha]

There are group rides and group rides. The big public ones such as the Christmas toy run (if that still exists since second-hand toys were banned on health and safety grounds) and the Easter Egg runs are best avoided. Sadly too many people put their brain in neutral when they get in a big crowd and I don't want them anywhere near me.

The annual Westpac ride in Auckland has that reputation, speeds reaching well in excess of 100 kph at times. When it used to go through downtown Auckland the cops would be standing there waving their arms about encouraging speed just to get everyone through quick as possible.

[Akzle]

You should call in. My 'mates' would love to meet you.

can we start crowd funding for this?

[Akzle]

There was a video of a public ride to raise funds for St John Ambulance last weekend and while there was a safety briefing by the organizers, from looking at a video of it there seemed to be more guys keen to go home by ambulance than by bike.

i wonder how many dogs they hit... repeatedly.

[scumdog]

You mean those rude cunts that shat all over the ANZAC dawn parade?

Well that bunch dang well struck fear into MY heart fer sure!:crazy:

[Akzle]

Well that bunch dang well struck fear into MY heart fer sure!:crazy:

they'll strike something into your something else too, i'd say

[Ocean1]

There are group rides and group rides. The big public ones such as the Christmas toy run (if that still exists since second-hand toys were banned on health and safety grounds) and the Easter Egg runs are best avoided. Sadly too many people put their brain in neutral when they get in a big crowd and I don't want them anywhere near me.

There's an effect involved in group riding not unlike that involved in target fixation. And you're right, it's nothing to do with "trying to keep up", it's a sort of abdication of decision making to that guy up ahead there, and some of the critical reactions just sort of slide.

I ride with others more often than not, but I've found that staying a bit further back, far enough that I'm not tempted to use them as some sort of point of reference, (essentially riding alone anyway) effectively removes that semi-subconscious temptation.

[WristTwister]

There was a video of a public ride to raise funds for St John Ambulance last weekend and while there was a safety briefing by the organizers, from looking at a video of it there seemed to be more guys keen to go home by ambulance than by bike.

Was that the one in Thorndon on the 25th?:crazy:

[AllanB]

I suspect the direction this has taken is also indicative of how we as a community often apply somewhat suspect riding on public roads.


Shit happens. Society continues to dumb down masculine natural tendencies. In a thousand years we may all have vaginas.


Open the throttle wide by all means - just think about where you do it.

[WristTwister]

I suspect the direction this has taken is also indicative of how we as a community often apply somewhat suspect riding on public roads.


Shit happens. Society continues to dumb down masculine natural tendencies. In a thousand years we may all have vaginas.


Open the throttle wide by all means - just think about where you do it.

Is being an idiot a masculine tendency? Idiots drive cars and idiots ride bikes, the only difference is they're more likely to kill themselves on a bike.

[AllanB]

Is being an idiot a masculine tendency?

Ah .......... yes :innocent: if honest. I blame testosterone. Long may it live.

[pritch]

There's an effect involved in group riding not unlike that involved in target fixation. And you're right, it's nothing to do with "trying to keep up", it's a sort of abdication of decision making to that guy up ahead there, and some of the critical reactions just sort of slide.


Well, it's definitely nothing to do with trying to keep up. The first Easter egg run I did every body was standing around yacking before the start, and that's fine, it's one of those times you see people you only catch up with occasionally.

When the organiser announced that it was time to go and where the ride was headed there's a chorus of "I need gas", and "I need a pee."
I'm like, "WTF? You've had since last Easter to get ready for this."

Then some fuckwit fell off on the first corner 'cause his tyre was flat. A few miles out of town people start passing on double yellows and blind bends, blind hill crests etc. I just decided that these lemmings can please themselves, but they can do it without me.

[Spearfish]

Group riding is a whole different dynamic, it is an activity that can expose a harsh reality meeting a head full of fantasy.

It seems that the little internal "just because I can doesn't mean I should" filter sometimes gets a little clogged. Why?


Are there any numbers on how many "groups" there are, the whole summer in the South Island seemed to be full of groups having a great time exploring but very few singles.

[Maha]

Well, it's definitely nothing to do with trying to keep up. The first Easter egg run I did every body was standing around yacking before the start, and that's fine, it's one of those times you see people you only catch up with occasionally.

When the organiser announced that it was time to go and where the ride was headed there's a chorus of "I need gas", and "I need a pee."
I'm like, "WTF? You've had since last Easter to get ready for this."

Then some fuckwit fell off on the first corner 'cause his tyre was flat. A few miles out of town people start passing on double yellows and blind bends, blind hill crests etc. I just decided that these lemmings can please themselves, but they can do it without me.

I would have to make a point of saying 're group does not mean get off your bike and light up a smoke'..on our rides. One smaller group decided it was time to go, geared up and left leaving behind a two up couple that took soooooooooooooo fucking long to get ready for some reason, when they finally got going they turned left at the first T intersection and subsequently spent the next few hours trying to figure out where their group actually went.

The destination and direction was announced but some rely on others knowing the details.

I would always make a fuel station the starting point so that when the bikes turn up they'd fuel up.

[bogan]

The ones you speak about passing on double yellow lines and blind bends would very likely be the ones riding under pressure to keep up.

I think you'll find passing is classed as 'getting ahead', not 'keeping up' :rolleyes:

[bogan]

In that case all group rides to you are a considered a race then? Most other commentators that agree with me do support my claim though that the dangerous overtaking to keep up is just that and not to win any race.

Reach a bit more. People pass when riding solo too, so really, all road use is a race, all the time, every time. Even the dogs are involved...

Most other commentators (and even posters) agree you're a moron.

[jonnyk5614]

I've ridden in groups probably less than 5 times and hated it every time. Never a big big ride, just me and some mates.

In my early days, on a 1000cc bike, I hit some crazy speeds for sure. I felt safe and comfortable with them (I shouldn't have but oh well).

In a group the other week, with three LAMS bikes and me on a 'Busa, I felt a LOT of pressure. I wasn't comfortable with the speed yet realised that I'm usually even faster up highway 16 on my own.

The problem was simple. On my own, I look at least 500m ahead on the open road. I plan ahead. All is good.

With a mate what, 20m ahead, I just follow him. 20m isn't a lot of reaction time at 100kph.

I'm not saying my brain switches off - far from it. It was doing quite the opposite.

I just get tunnel vision, and can't avoid but concentrating on the other bikes.

On the way back, I passed the lead rider, rode back and arrived a couple of mins ahead of the others with not a care in the world. I was the fastest rider in the group by miles, but only when I wasn't following anyone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pritch]

I would always make a fuel station the starting point so that when the bikes turn up they'd fuel up.

For between 50 and 100 bikes that's not a realistic option. A largely unoccupied carpark is required but it'd still take a special kind of dimwit to arrive without a full tank.

And it may come as news to some, but overtaking is not restricted to other members of the group. The manouvers I referred to involved other road users, cars. vans, whatever.
"Keeping up" had SFA to do with anything.

[russd7]

I ride with others more often than not, but I've found that staying a bit further back, far enough that I'm not tempted to use them as some sort of point of reference, (essentially riding alone anyway) effectively removes that semi-subconscious temptation.

i find being lead rider stops that target fixation as well and people seem to like to follow me anyway, effed if i know why, must be the sexy ass of the zzr, mind you, they also like to follow when im on the wing as well

[russd7]

Group riding is a whole different dynamic, it is an activity that can expose a harsh reality meeting a head full of fantasy.

It seems that the little internal "just because I can doesn't mean I should" filter sometimes gets a little clogged. Why?


Are there any numbers on how many "groups" there are, the whole summer in the South Island seemed to be full of groups having a great time exploring but very few singles.

i think a lot of people ride as a social thing, we often ride in small groups when travelling to rallies and such, not often time for solo rides tho have had a few good short ones of late playing the southland tag game.

[fxxk]

Fuck it, I give enough of my money back in taxes that I'd enjoy a free helicopter ride if I crash


Might cost you an arm and a leg... Whoops that was a pun

[Berries]

Would be really interested in that similar analysis of the serious injury stats.
Seeing as you asked..........

In 2015 there were 226 crashes resulting in fatal or serious injury that involved a motorbike and another vehicle, or fucking cagers as they are commonly known in these parts. I say motorbike but a handful of mopeds are included in the data as they were incorrectly coded and there are a number of unregistered bike that crashed on the road, either farm bikes or off road bikes.

Whenever you hear of 'fault' relating to crash data it is based on a simple analysis of the codes that have been given to a crash. One, two or three codes cannot really do justice to an event that could have quite few more contributing factors. Rather than rely on an automated summation of a bored analysts coding I have looked at all the crash reports and give you my own hopefully not too biased view. Of the 226 crashes this is how I interpret things -

Bike rider at fault 91 - 40%
Other rider/driver at fault 105 – 46%
Shared fault 27 – 12%
Medical and unknown 3

What is interesting, but probably not surprising, is how completely different the crashes are depending on who was at fault.

Rider at fault
Overtaking – 25 (These were either on the open road with limited or no visibility or on flush medians in heavy or stationary traffic)
Swung wide on left hand curve and caused head on crash - 12
Twats – 10 (A catch all group for crashes that made no sense. Riding at night with no helmet and no lights. Riding pissed at twice the speed limit with no lights at night in the rain etc etc etc.)
Following too close – 9
SMIDSY – 8 (Yep. Payback time)
Lane change without checking - 5
Too fast to stop - 5
Loss of control under braking – 3
Loss of control on a curve - 3
Splitting - 2

Other vehicle at fault
Right turn in to intersection across path of motorbike – 26
Right turn out of intersection across path of motorbike – 24
U-turns – 16
Fail to give way at a crossroads - 8
Fail to give way at a roundabout - 5
Cutting corner at intersection – 4 (Particularly nasty for the poor sod sitting at the limit line and not really avoidable)
Rear end – 4
Both turning - 3
Lane change - 3
Wrong side of road -3 (Two of them locals before anyone starts)
Reversing vehicle -2
Twat - 2
Loss of control and head on - 1

Where fault was shared this was because while one party did something that was clearly wrong the other party contributed by also doing something unexpected. Or stupid.
Right turn out – 9 (Example, car turns right and gets hit by rider who comes around corner at warp factor 9, or gets hit by rider with no lights at night)
Right turn in – 5
Overtaking - 5
Reversing - 2
Racing -1

Quick summary, if it is a multi vehicle crash and the other vehicle was at fault then it probably happened at an intersection and was probably because the other rider/driver did not take enough time to make sure the way was clear. In a lot of cases the crashes were avoidable if the rider had been a bit more defensive.

If it was a multi vehicle crash and the rider was at fault then generally speaking the rider was probably bending a few road rules at the time, whether he/she was going too fast when the shit hit the fan or whether they were just being a complete twat. Being a twat is not restricted to bike riders but from what I have seen and what should be obvious to all of us is that if it bites it bites you much harder if you are on two wheels.

Meh. Hopefully this does not read like I am preaching. I ride for the buzz and I am pretty sure that if I was being monitored I would lose my licence every day. I have seen enough traumatic amputations and empty helmets at the side of the road however that I do my best to stay upright. In the end who is at fault is irrelevant if you want to get home in one piece and this whole "fucking cager" thing is a complete nonsense.

[Bass]

Seeing as you asked..........

In 2015 there were 226 crashes resulting in fatal or serious injury that involved a motorbike and another vehicle, or fucking cagers as they are commonly known in these parts. .


Many thanks, I really appreciate the effort.

Just to clarify, I read the sentence that I have quoted as meaning the information that you have provided relates only to multi-vehicle crashes i.e. single vehicle events are not included.

Right or wrong?

[Berries]

Many thanks, I really appreciate the effort.

Just to clarify, I read the sentence that I have quoted as meaning the information that you have provided relates only to multi-vehicle crashes i.e. single vehicle events are not included.

Right or wrong?
You are correct.

[Bass]

OK, a bit of guesswork then and given that your guess is going to be more accurate than mine, what's your estimate of the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes in 2015?

(or do you have hard data for this one?)

[Berries]

OK, a bit of guesswork then and given that your guess is going to be more accurate than mine, what's your estimate of the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes in 2015?

(or do you have hard data for this one?)
I knew that was coming. There were 24 fatal and 180 serious injury crashes reported last year where the bike was the only vehicle.

Just looking at the most simple analysis 70% were loss of control or off road on a bend, 16% loss of control or off road on a straight and 10% hitting an obstruction which includes parked cars and parked cows.

84% on a dry road
45% on weekends
8% hit a guardrail
18% alcohol related

There are actually a few more crashes than this. Some of the multis were actually two or three single bikes going down in the same place a few seconds apart but have been coded incorrectly.

Quickly looking at all injury crashes seeing as this is an ACC thread, there were 1,250 last year involving a motorbike or moped. 775 were multi-vehicle, 449 single vehicle, 18 bike vs ped and 7 motorbike vs push bike.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Jmg86CRBBtw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Bass]

I knew that was coming.

Of course you did.

IMHO, those numbers speak for themselves - I don't need to comment, but I will.
The numbers are far worse than I expected. The biggest danger to motorcyclists is us, by a considerable margin and still we persist in trying to shift the blame. But then , I have figured in the statistics before (in a minor way) and I still take some risks on the bike.
Therefore I am in no position to preach either.

Thank you again

[Katman]

Of course you did.The numbers are far worse than I expected. The biggest danger to motorcyclists is us, by a considerable margin and still we persist in trying to shift the blame.

Sing it brother.

[Voltaire]

Out of interest is there one from the same source for Car Crashes?

[Moi]

As has been said, many thanks for your analysis.

It makes for both enlightening and sobering reading.

[Katman]

In a lot of cases the crashes were avoidable if the rider had been a bit more defensive.

And therein lies the heart of the problem.

I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of the multi-vehicle accidents could have been avoided if the rider had been paying sufficient attention to what they're doing.

[Bass]

And therein lies the heart of the problem.

I would go so far as to say that the vast majority of the multi-vehicle accidents could have been avoided if the rider had been paying sufficient attention to what they're doing.

You have grounds for that claim given that in 2015, of all the fatal or serious injury biker accidents, 69% were either single vehicle events or had the rider solely at fault.

[Banditbandit]

You have grounds for that claim given that in 2015, of all the fatal or serious injury biker accidents, 69% were either single vehicle events or had the rider solely at fault.

Yes. And that is a significant change in recent years ... a change in stats and a change in rider attitudes ...

Now I'll admit that I can be pretty loose on the roads ... and not a good example to follow ...

But Katman has been singing this song for many years ... 'bout time people listened ..

[pritch]

Sing it brother.

I read the previous post and thought, "Enter Katman".
And there he was, right on queue. :innocent:

[rastuscat]

Damn it's nice to be vindicated.

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

Ah well, I can only dream.

[Katman]

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.

[rastuscat]

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.

Right. I'm leading a Ride Forever Bronze Course for 6 punters tomorrow.

I'll go with the OYFESYFBO route. Cheers Katman.

[caseye]

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.



Never been anything wrong with the message! 100% agree with it.
Keep singing KM.

[Bass]

Never been anything wrong with the message!

I'm not sure that I agree.
I have absolutely no evidence for it except for personal anecdotes but I have this strong feeling that the numbers we are talking about are driven more by riders deliberately pushing the envelope than carelessness. I think that their eyes are open and their brains are on, but because of the buzz they are taking it to the edge and sometimes beyond.

As I said, no evidence, so go ahead and prove me wrong.

I do however suggest that Berries' analysis supports this point of view

I also suggest that much of the problem is that " the edge" moves around a great deal, from place to place and from day to day. The other part of the problem is that many, if not most of us, are pretty incompetent at figuring out just where the edge is, especially in changing conditions and we tend to make no allowance for that.

Anyway, opinion only, so shoot me down but use some logic please.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Damn it's nice to be vindicated.

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

Ah well, I can only dream.

Lets all get kneedown on some roundabouts!!!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Right. I'm leading a Ride Forever Bronze Course for 6 punters tomorrow.

I'll go with the OYFESYFBO route. Cheers Katman.

kneedown on th curletts road roundabout!!!

[rastuscat]

kneedown on th curletts road roundabout!!!

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

[varminter]

So that's what the pegs are for, silly me, I thought they were to put your feet on.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

Oh dear. I presume he is OK - just with dented pride.

Need to tell him knee down is cool but "whole of body down" less so

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

[pritch]

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

Outside peg but otherwise yeah. After four weeks they'll be gagging for a track day. :whistle:

[5ive]

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

I don't think that many instructors do that at all (or in depth) unfortunately. Probably has a lot to do with numbers attending, time available, experience levels, and bike types. Plus once passed the beginner levels of riding, they don't want to discourage (hate me but it's true) older riders who are shit at riding, and need the training, because the few that turn up may eventually encourage other 'experienced' riders to return and get some training in the future if it catches on.

Most instructors only cover the bare basics of low speed handling, some basic road postitioning, and most of the road rules (but not in depth) depending on the route taken.

This is just my opinion based on multiple Bronze and Silver course experiences, across multiple instructors/testers in different locations in the last two years, as well as the basic handling test/training/restricted license/full license.

Nearly all of the instructors are now giving a lecture on the road ACC road accident/death statistics prior to riding out (lame but neccessary for their funding), and fully implicates those older riders as previously mentioned.

Best I've had is one instructor who has racing experience, and has proffesionally trained stunt rider/actors for film and television work overseas, who covers the basics for the beginners, but also gives advanced advice when able as well as road side demonstrations of 'proper' riding techniques. We got a lot of training in during the course that time, but probably only because the majoity of us were 'competent' so we could skip the basics.

I like the courses that are available as I do plenty of riding alone and with groups, and like to futher my knowledge and experience of riding as much as possible, but wish that the courses available were a little bit more tailor-made to suit experience/individuals rather than just one-size-fits-all.

[Swoop]

Other vehicle at fault
U-turns – 16

Well, that will blow the police budget for the year...

[rastuscat]

I don't think that many instructors do that at all (or in depth) unfortunately. Probably has a lot to do with numbers attending, time available, experience levels, and bike types. Plus once passed the beginner levels of riding, they don't want to discourage (hate me but it's true) older riders who are shit at riding, and need the training, because the few that turn up may eventually encourage other 'experienced' riders to return and get some training in the future if it catches on.

Most instructors only cover the bare basics of low speed handling, some basic road postitioning, and most of the road rules (but not in depth) depending on the route taken.

This is just my opinion based on multiple Bronze and Silver course experiences, across multiple instructors/testers in different locations in the last two years, as well as the basic handling test/training/restricted license/full license.

Nearly all of the instructors are now giving a lecture on the road ACC road accident/death statistics prior to riding out (lame but neccessary for their funding), and fully implicates those older riders as previously mentioned.

Best I've had is one instructor who has racing experience, and has proffesionally trained stunt rider/actors for film and television work overseas, who covers the basics for the beginners, but also gives advanced advice when able as well as road side demonstrations of 'proper' riding techniques. We got a lot of training in during the course that time, but probably only because the majoity of us were 'competent' so we could skip the basics.

I like the courses that are available as I do plenty of riding alone and with groups, and like to futher my knowledge and experience of riding as much as possible, but wish that the courses available were a little bit more tailor-made to suit experience/individuals rather than just one-size-fits-all.

The Bronze Course is aimed at relative beginners.

We don't cover intricate things, as there are a lot of basics to cover before we start addressing the advanced techniques.

Such things as not putting yourself in stupid blindspots and active position management take time to embed, but are so important.

The Bronze Course is also aimed at those wanting to pass their CBTA 6R test. Such things as trail braking and weighting the outside footpeg are normally not covered as the students are relatively inexperienced. As was the case today.

It's hard enough to get the basics into people's habits without trying to turn beginners into Valentino Rossi within 1 day.

The guy in question was solid enough, but his attempt at being Rossi ended in tears. Nil injuries (phew) but his crash bungs got a good workout.

On our Silver and Gold courses we cover more advanced skills, but it's tailored to the group and their skill levels.

[5ive]

Yeah, I appreciate what you do, and the scope of the Bronze course. I have still found some value in doing the Bronze and Silver courses multiple times with different instructors/attendees in different locations and during both winter/summer though. I've also encountered some more 'experienced' riders who may benefit from some training in lower speed zones, including low speed handling and emergency braking, so aiming the Bronze course soley at newer riders may not be the ideal situation if we want to improve the skills of all NZ riders.

The Gold course also doesn't seem like a raising of the benchmark (description wise) if the Bronze and Silver courses are to go by... the main points of difference to the Silver course (instructor wise) only seems to be things like carrying a pillion, and towing a load. Plus it will still probably still come down to the instructor and skill level of the attendees on the day...

I need/want to do a Gold course though, but have previously assumed I'm too new to riding to do one yet, as I've only just been riding for two years. Will do one soon though once I have some free time.

[rastuscat]

Yeah, I appreciate what you do, and the scope of the Bronze course. I have still found some value in doing the Bronze and Silver courses multiple times with different instructors/attendees in different locations and during both winter/summer though. I've also encountered some more 'experienced' riders who may benefit from some training in lower speed zones, including low speed handling and emergency braking, so aiming the Bronze course soley at newer riders may not be the ideal situation if we want to improve the skills of all NZ riders.

The Gold course also doesn't seem like a raising of the benchmark (description wise) if the Bronze and Silver courses are to go by... the main points of difference to the Silver course (instructor wise) only seems to be things like carrying a pillion, and towing a load. Plus it will still probably still come down to the instructor and skill level of the attendees on the day...

I need/want to do a Gold course though, but have previously assumed I'm too new to riding to do one yet, as I've only just been riding for two years. Will do one soon though once I have some free time.

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

[skippa1]

I do a wee session on each course
I thought you were talking about a motorcycle riding course you kinky mofo

[nzspokes]

slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

Because many die trying to U turn in the Countdown carpark.

Track is where its at.....;)

[HenryDorsetCase]

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.

outside peg. yes. lock the leg in.

I did a course with Karel Pavich's crew a while back and there was quite a lot of slow speed "control" stuff. Being one of those useless older riders with terrible habits and a bike too fast for the road, I though "Ah this is fucking stupid, we're at a racetrack, lets get stuck in" MOAR FASTERER.

Actually the cone slalom and fine control was really useful. Plus I felt like a tit applying front brake in a turn and stalling out. Had to very inelegantly put my foot out a few times. I used to practice figure 8s in the wee carpark at work when I was leaving after that.

I also really like the "squeeeeeze gently but then hard" drill for sex. I mean braking. Yeah, braking.

[russd7]

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

hmmm is people falling off their bikes a common thing on your training rides, heard of a young (actually not so young but hey) lady falling off her bike on one of your gold courses back in march, it were her telling me about it, i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

[PrincessBandit]

...driven more by riders deliberately pushing the envelope than carelessness. I think that their eyes are open and their brains are on, but because of the buzz they are taking it to the edge and sometimes beyond...

....many, if not most of us, are pretty incompetent at figuring out just where the edge is, especially in changing conditions and we tend to make no allowance for that.

Buzz can get in the way if we get too buzzed and not enough zen.


... i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

Tongue in cheek, I'm sure, but also a serious issue for some.

[rastuscat]

hmmm is people falling off their bikes a common thing on your training rides, heard of a young (actually not so young but hey) lady falling off her bike on one of your gold courses back in march, it were her telling me about it, i told her she shouldna been trying to show off.

I've been at the coal face delivering R4E courses for a year now. In that time I've had maybe 200 clients.

Only 3 have ever come off during the course, and all because they did something silly. Out riding their ability.

Nobody has been the victim of a SMIDSY which is good, as that's what we are teaching people to avoid.

[KezzaCFC]

It's been one of the challenges I've faced in getting into the R4E world. Differentiating between the Bronze, Silver and Gold.

People do a Bronze and often then want to know what different stuff gets covered in the Silver. Some are really motivated to pile courses on top of each other.

There are so many factors. The themes are quite similar, but the choice of course to go on depends on many things.

DX Mail send their staff on a course each year on their work bikes. They get a Bronze Course, regardless of their age/experience/ability. That's because their bikes are not suited to a Gold or Silver course. E.g. a CT110 and a GN125 are not particularly suited to a day out on the open road. I've had DX Mail people who ride private Hayabusas get grumpy at being put on a Bronze Course until I explain to them that they might be suitable for a Gold but their work bike isn't.

Other people who turn up for a Gold course are struggling to do the stuff I'd expect of a beginner
Many wouldn't pass a CBTA test if they took the gamble. People on Gold are normally on capable bikes, full licences with some years of riding behind them. None of which is any guarantee of ability.

Interestingly, if you did a Bronze Course with me then one with one of my workmates, you would take similar themes from each, but learn many different things based on the experience of each instructor. I'm all about road craft, awareness and slow speed control. I coach these things. I suck at race stuff as I've never done any. My colleagues are racing gurus, so I feel that people get a better experience with them.

Actually no, I think I'm better at the slow speed control, a product of my Popo background. I do a wee session on each course, I'm not sure if my colleagues do.


Just done my CBTA 6R test last tuesday..passed with flying colours. Was a fun ride and a good way to spend the day off work.

Only hopped on a bike with gears 3 or so months ago, got my learners in March, and now restricted in June.
Most of the people on the course had ridden <1000km.

Funnily enough, what i took away from the course I find myself also using when I drive my fucking cage (I think i said that right didn't I?) aswell. From an awareness point of view anyway.

Moving back the mainland soon, might come across yourself on a silver or gold in the summer.

[george formby]

Just done my CBTA 6R test last tuesday..passed with flying colours. Was a fun ride and a good way to spend the day off work.

Only hopped on a bike with gears 3 or so months ago, got my learners in March, and now restricted in June.
Most of the people on the course had ridden <1000km.

Funnily enough, what i took away from the course I find myself also using when I drive my fucking cage (I think i said that right didn't I?) aswell. From an awareness point of view anyway.

Moving back the mainland soon, might come across yourself on a silver or gold in the summer.

Yeah, the basic tenants of road craft apply to cars, too. My Teutonic superior other was adamant she was a good driver having learned and driven in Germany but miraculously her attitude totally changed when she started learning to ride a bike and got some training, private initially. She has now done all 3 R4E courses. Her driving has changed dramatically, too.

Who made that comment about fatal u turns in car parks? :pinch: If it works at 20kmh, it works at 120kmh. Slow speed handling is the dog's danglies, particularly when you do it quickly.

[Ocean1]

outside peg. yes. lock the leg in.

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

[george formby]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

Funnily enough that is another way of asking the question I did on my gold course. Kind of. The answer given to me, which I endorse wholeheartedly, is to pivot around the tank rather than shift yer weight across the bike.

[rastuscat]

Funnily enough that is another way of asking the question I did on my gold course. Kind of. The answer given to me, which I endorse wholeheartedly, is to pivot around the tank rather than shift yer weight across the bike.

There are a couple of ways to do it, and they only vary depending on how you think about it. Pivoting on the tank is my way too.

It's akin to the two methods of counter steering. Instead of pushing the inside bar forward, I prefer to weight the outside bar backwards. Achieves the same effect, safely.

It's all a matter of achieving the same dynamic in a different way, sometimes the only difference being mindset.

Or where you most recently bought donuts.

[rastuscat]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

322077

There ya go. Glad to help.

[pritch]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

Funny, I was just reading what Mick Doohan had to say about weghting the pegs. GP riders need to do that and we can play with weighting the peg but not too many people would bother when cruising or touring. Oxley said the GP riders would wear holes in the soles of their boot from working the pegs, sometimes in a single race weekend. He wrote that in the two stroke era though and I'm not sure if the big four stokes are quite as fussy.

[george formby]

There are a couple of ways to do it, and they only vary depending on how you think about it. Pivoting on the tank is my way too.

It's akin to the two methods of counter steering. Instead of pushing the inside bar forward, I prefer to weight the outside bar backwards. Achieves the same effect, safely.

It's all a matter of achieving the same dynamic in a different way, sometimes the only difference being mindset.

Or where you most recently bought donuts.

Counter steering with one hand. :clap: Great for a laugh and a fine example of the dynamic.
The whole body position and weighting thing came about after a comment on the Silver course. I was introduced to "kiss the mirror". My riding turned to crap immediately afterwards. I got the head, shoulder and elbow part but body weight......? Yeah, na. Didn't happen. Gold course made everything gel and my riding changed yet again. Marvelous stuff.

[rastuscat]

Funny, I was just reading what Mick Doohan had to say about weghting the pegs. GP riders need to do that and we can play with weighting the peg but not too many people would bother when cruising or touring. .

And there is the crux of it.

Riding on the road, you're unlikely to need to shift your weight around like Mick Doohan.

Of course, if you are the type who loves to dress like a power ranger and ride like you want to be Mick, you'll do whatever it takes to be like him.

Mick himself had something to say about differentiating between the habits needed on the track which are not appropriate to the road.

https://youtu.be/VruWHHEnZGw

[Moi]

This might be of interest:

https://img.yumpu.com/6997291/1/358x254/full-control.jpg
(http://nmcu.org/files/Full%20Control_2013.pdf)

Downloadable pdf of the book.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?When i am doing it I kind of lock my top leg against the tank and footpeg and keep some pressure on it. I dunno. it seems to work because you are leaning the bike over a long way and effectively hanging from that top leg...

[HenryDorsetCase]

When i am doing it I kind of lock my top leg against the tank and footpeg and keep some pressure on it. I dunno. it seems to work because you are leaning the bike over a long way and effectively hanging from that top leg...

and I never do it on the road really because I am never that leaned over. Except when kneedown on the curletts road roundabout, obvs.

[george formby]

The reason I was introduced to body position, peg weighting etc, was to minimise lean on wet roads. Less angle for a given speed.
What I have learned from doing it is that I have more feed back and control of the bike when cornering. Braking is a lot more comfortable and I can change line to avoid possums, bags of Maccas and dirty nappy's easier.

But. It also works to increase confidence leaning further... Which always brings me back to being able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear.

[russd7]

I've been at the coal face delivering R4E courses for a year now. In that time I've had maybe 200 clients.

Only 3 have ever come off during the course, and all because they did something silly. Out riding their ability.

Nobody has been the victim of a SMIDSY which is good, as that's what we are teaching people to avoid.

tongue in cheek, and she did say it was her fault, you guys do an awesome job and i have done two gold courses and learnt from both. :yes:

[Ocean1]

Funnily enough that is another way of asking the question I did on my gold course. Kind of. The answer given to me, which I endorse wholeheartedly, is to pivot around the tank rather than shift yer weight across the bike.

Oh aye, depending on the bike and situation I do that too.

But doing that moves your weight onto the inside peg.


322077

There ya go. Glad to help.

I could show you pics of me doing pretty much the same thing. On a dirt bike.

And you can't really say that his weight is to the inside, can you?


Funny, I was just reading what Mick Doohan had to say about weghting the pegs. GP riders need to do that and we can play with weighting the peg but not too many people would bother when cruising or touring. Oxley said the GP riders would wear holes in the soles of their boot from working the pegs, sometimes in a single race weekend. He wrote that in the two stroke era though and I'm not sure if the big four stokes are quite as fussy.

Yeah, I was hard on trials boots for the same reason. And trials bike pegs are usually more aggressive, and you're moving a lot further than on a road bike.


I was introduced to "kiss the mirror".

That was one of my early revelations about how NOT to ride a sprotsbike like a dirt bike.

I had trouble explaining to myself why it worked. Or seemed to work. I think at least part of the reason is because it decouples your head from the bike's lean angle, which your subconscious is typically quite concerned about. That bit is all in your head.

But it also decouples a lot of your body mass from the bike's vertical, (suspension) movement, which means less peak load over mid corner bumps, which makes the bike less unsettled.


This might be of interest:

Downloadable pdf of the book.

Tah. Think I've read it but will have a look.


When i am doing it I kind of lock my top leg against the tank and footpeg and keep some pressure on it. I dunno. it seems to work because you are leaning the bike over a long way and effectively hanging from that top leg...

Aye, again I don't have a problem moving about on the bike, just understanding how you take more of your weight on the foot opposite to the way your'e moving.


The reason I was introduced to body position, peg weighting etc, was to minimise lean on wet roads. Less angle for a given speed.
What I have learned from doing it is that I have more feed back and control of the bike when cornering. Braking is a lot more comfortable and I can change line to avoid possums, bags of Maccas and dirty nappy's easier.

But. It also works to increase confidence leaning further... Which always brings me back to being able to stop in the distance I can see to be clear.

Which is why I do it, sometimes, on the road. It works.

But as you know the opposite also works on dirt bikes, and I've never changed much about how I manage a road bike from my dirt bike routine at low speed. Trail brake tight turns, bike down not the body, etc.

[russd7]

I've often wondered how you're supposed to weight your outside peg when you're also supposed to have your body mass over on the inside.

I've even gone looking for pictures that might illustrate an expert doing that, with no luck.

Any enlightenment, there, dude?

google riding off road trikes, or atv, only way to get them fuckers to spin round.

[Hubris]

Interesting thread. I did a bronze course last weekend...much of the theory was the same as back when I first did my rider training, but always good to go over the basics again. Good instructor too. Our only newbie had to drop out because of a bad valve/flat tire, so open road portion of the course was fun with some middle aged guys on full licenses.

[roy.nz]

Fuck y'all. Time to ban MURDERCYCLES.


http://www.newshub.co.nz/nznews/middle-aged-men-top-acc-motorcycle-claims-2016042316#axzz46dcRciDu

These are all the original guys and gals that stuffed everything up about 30 years ago. Look at the sats it is the same group of returning bikers.

Thanks fellas.

(yes you rode +/-30 years ago but those skills wear off. So don't go buy a sports bike. Get a learner bike and work your way up again!)

[Ocean1]

These are all the original guys and gals that stuffed everything up about 30 years ago. Look at the sats it is the same group of returning bikers.

Thanks fellas.

(yes you rode +/-30 years ago but those skills wear off. So don't go buy a sports bike. Get a learner bike and work your way up again!)

Got those stats to hand, dude?

Care to share?

[old slider]

The most common crash type was crossing the centreline on a left hand curve into oncoming traffic (all on dry roads) followed by overtaking on crests or left hand curves straight in to the path of an oncoming vehicle.


All stuff you see frequently on the road. :facepalm: Left handers - over cooking it? Overtaking ......... mental stuff out there, I am frequently amazed how lucky some riders are.


Reading through this thread is very sobering, as an older (family grown up, mortgage paid etc) type of returning rider I can easily see how after many years of non riding and going out buying motorcycles we come unstuck.

The Stats are showing just how bad we are, or maybe it is also because there are so many more of us riding on the roads these days?
just Like push bike use took a dive, did Motorcycles do similar after the 1974 helmet law, I often thought there were less bikes on the roads during late 70s-90s, but they seem to be making a return in the 2000s with more money and us baby boomers reaching a late mid life crisis as we realise the years are running out.

[Banditbandit]

These are all the original guys and gals that stuffed everything up about 30 years ago. Look at the sats it is the same group of returning bikers.

Thanks fellas.

(yes you rode +/-30 years ago but those skills wear off. So don't go buy a sports bike. Get a learner bike and work your way up again!)


Mate - I got involved with bikes in 1972 - and I have never been without a bike since ...

Not all of us oldies (who you claim were responsible for the mess 30 years ago) are returning riders ...

And almost all the returning riders I know ride Harleys .. hardly sports bikes ... but heavy slugs with poor brakes ... and worse handling ...

[neels]

Or many returning riders would be still be alive if they did not have a mid life crisis in the first place which it is said in the media is the reason why they return to riding.
Isn't it funny that returning to doing something you enjoy, now that you have the time and money again after having a wife and kids and mortgage bleeding you dry for a decade or two, is considered a mid life crisis.

[Big Dog]

Reading through this thread is very sobering, as an older (family grown up, mortgage paid etc) type of returning rider I can easily see how after many years of non riding and going out buying motorcycles we come unstuck.

The Stats are showing just how bad we are, or maybe it is also because there are so many more of us riding on the roads these days?
just Like push bike use took a dive, did Motorcycles do similar after the 1974 helmet law, I often thought there were less bikes on the roads during late 70s-90s, but they seem to be making a return in the 2000s with more money and us baby boomers reaching a late mid life crisis as we realise the years are running out.
I reckon Japanese imports had more to do with it.
They turned a motorcycle from a cheap mode of transport that was a right of passage for many into a luxury item owned only by those whose desire to ride exceeded their desire to have the cash and lower exposure to risk and elements.
In the early 80's people spoke of bikes as cheap transport. No one ever seemed to mention the risks or the weather.
By the time I bought my first in the early nineties it was a false economy. The total cost of running a bike including gear was about the same.
Then mid nineties the levies came off. Suddenly it cost nearly twice per year to own similar vintage / prestige bike vs car.
It is marginally cheaper to commute on the bike today, but only because I would still own the bike and all the gear even if I wasn't commuting, although I suspect I would do more weekend riding and then I'd need a second car for the wife to drive the kids around while I take the car to work.
If you try hard enough you can justify anything.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[pritch]

I reckon Japanese imports had more to do with it.


Yep. Why buy a learner bike and go through a complicated, graduated, licencing process when you can just plonk down $5,000 on a turbo rocket ship that doubles as a motel room on wheels? :innocent:

[Big Dog]

Yep. Why buy a learner bike and go through a complicated, graduated, licencing process when you can just plonk down $5,000 on a turbo rocket ship that doubles as a motel room on wheels? :innocent:
Pretty much. Having a motorcycle as ones only form of transport sure thins the available herd of talent.

Mind you in my experience If they can't cope with being picked up for their first date on a motorcycle they aren't my type and I'm not theirs anyway.

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[old slider]

No there are far fewer motorbikes on the road today. The boom years were between the early 70s to 80s which was due to the fact you could buy a brand new bike for the same price as a car that was at the stage of needing a lot of repairs plus bikes were actually cheaper to register back then. There are also fewer bike shops around today which is due to the now price of cars no longer being so much higher than the cost of bikes back in the 70's & 80's.


I agree there were a lot of bikes in the 70s, but I still think they declined in the 80s-90s, cars seemed to be much more affordable, possibly imports, the baby boomers from the 50s were having families paying off homes etc and bikes were mostly forgotten, those baby boomers are now in the 50-60s age bracket and now have the time and often the coin to try and enjoy the last years.

I have not looked at actual statistics, but it seems from reading the morning newspaper on reported motorcycle accidents, there is an awful lot in that age bracket.

[old slider]

I don't think there is one single reason why guys have mid life crisis's as another poster said it was due to them not having that many years left. Sounds like you made a mistake having a wife and kids to blame them for your mid life crisis. I test rode a Harley 10 years ago being in the MLC age group. It did nothing for me but I have never stopped riding either. Having said that though after seeing some of the latest Indian bikes I am curious but I may find just having a test ride of one satisfying enough like I did with the Harley.

if you get the chance, test ride the Fat Bob, they have changed a bit. The first Fat Bob was introduced into the Dyna range in 2008 so its a couple of years after your last test ride.

[old slider]

Yes I was keen to demo a Fat Bob and V Rod but after seeing the latest Indians will get a ride of one of them first. I noticed in the dealership in ChCh nearly all their trade ins were Harley so there must be something better about them than Harleys. I am keen to demo the latest Diavel too which now has a seating position like a Harley or Indian.



Maybe for many a change is as good as a holiday, The name Indian may have something to do with it? I looked at victory a while ago, didn't fit me which I think HD probably gives buyers with lots of options to get it right, the exhaust/engine sounds just didn't seem the same as HDs, funny how that could influence me.

Dukes, well what can you say, a whole different looking/performing motorcycle. Seeing your a Honda man, thought you might like these pics of my old sidecar from 1980322455322456

[RDJ]

I got my first bike in the early 70s. Got my bike licence when I turned 15, got a bike (Puch scooter) two days later. If you wanted to be independently mobile and your parents weren't the 70s equivalent of rich listers, back then there was no way we could afford cars. Six months later, an RV90. Two years after that, an RV125. Three years after that, GT380. Two years after that, GT750... Then through an assortment of road bikes and Honda and Suzi 'scramblers' (remember then?) before a Kwaka 900, then an 1100, then married, then overseas.

Came back to NZ in 2011 with two Harleys (an '02 and an '04) - so yes, I am literally a rider returning, but I'm not a returning rider. There is a significant (to me, if not to ACC) difference.

While overseas I rode all manner of available bikes, usually of a low cc rating and mostly Japanese * (*although in the Trashcanistans, always a Ural).

Most reliable bike to buy in hurry sight unseen - a Honda Super Cub, in Vietnam and Thailand. Best bang for the buck - a Royal Enfield in Kashmir. Safest bet in the former USSR - a Ural. In West Africa - any Honda with a 125 engine. In South Africa - a low-mileage BMW GS from a fleeing tourist cutting their trip short. Most expensive bang for the buck; a (used, mucho-chromed) '04 Vrod in Singapore. Best value bang for the buck - a low-mileage (43-only-kms!!) '02 Dyna in Singapore as no-one wanted it, they were all hanging out for an '03 Anniversary model. Got that Dyna literally for half new sticker price. Still got it.

When you can't blend in (due to size and skin color) in an insecure location, my advice is don't look too prosperous. One easy way I found to not look too prosperous and still have fun is in a country where both expatriates and the local elite drive around in cars; buy a local motorcycle and ride with the commuting pack. Generally, in my experience foreign ferals figure that if you can't afford a car or a Harley they're wasting their time extorting you.

[old slider]

I got my first bike in the early 70s. Got my bike licence when I turned 15, got a bike (Puch scooter) two days later. If you wanted to be independently mobile and your parents weren't the 70s equivalent of rich listers, back then there was no way we could afford cars. Six months later, an RV90. Two years after that, an RV125. Three years after that, GT380. Two years after that, GT750... Then through an assortment of road bikes and Honda and Suzi 'scramblers' (remember then?) before a Kwaka 900, then an 1100, then married, then overseas.

Came back to NZ in 2011 with two Harleys (an '02 and an '04) - so yes, I am literally a rider returning, but I'm not a returning rider. There is a significant (to me, if not to ACC) difference.

While overseas I rode all manner of available bikes, usually of a low cc rating and mostly Japanese * (*although in the Trashcanistans, always a Ural).

Most reliable bike to buy in hurry sight unseen - a Honda Super Cub, in Vietnam and Thailand. Best bang for the buck - a Royal Enfield in Kashmir. Safest bet in the former USSR - a Ural. In West Africa - any Honda with a 125 engine. In South Africa - a low-mileage BMW GS from a fleeing tourist cutting their trip short. Most expensive bang for the buck; a (used, mucho-chromed) '04 Vrod in Singapore. Best value bang for the buck - a low-mileage (43-only-kms!!) '02 Dyna in Singapore as no-one wanted it, they were all hanging out for an '03 Anniversary model. Got that Dyna literally for half new sticker price. Still got it.

When you can't blend in (due to size and skin color) in an insecure location, my advice is don't look too prosperous. One easy way I found to not look too prosperous and still have fun is in a country where both expatriates and the local elite drive around in cars; buy a local motorcycle and ride with the commuting pack. Generally, in my experience foreign ferals figure that if you can't afford a car or a Harley they're wasting their time extorting you.


very insightful post, some valuable information to lock away for future use.

Yes I remember when the trail bikes became popular as our day to day rides, 3 mates and I all went into Colemans (I had worked there after 2ndary school, my Mum still did) traded in our 250 hustlers etc and my 200 Suzuki :stupid: I purchased a new Suzuki TS 250 in 1973 had a heap of fun apart from taking the girlfriend I later married on a return trip from Wanganui to Wellington on it, wish I had kept the Suzuki, the Honda 400 four came later and sold to my Brother, memory getting tired with age.

[RDJ]

I so wish I had kept the TS185... I swear the power-to-weight on that was magic. But, maybe seemed that way 'cuz I was still thin then :-)

Anyone remember the Honda ad...

And if you don't know what it's like to take your Honda some place
In your own lane
With the wind in your face..."

The third line accompanied a slo-mo of a guy doing a major jump and in mid-air revving it up and putting out a 2-stroke smoke-trail.

I tried to imitate that often. Failed, epically (well, probably not epically, actually...)

[george formby]

When you can't blend in (due to size and skin color) in an insecure location, my advice is don't look too prosperous. One easy way I found to not look too prosperous and still have fun is in a country where both expatriates and the local elite drive around in cars; buy a local motorcycle and ride with the commuting pack. Generally, in my experience foreign ferals figure that if you can't afford a car or a Harley they're wasting their time extorting you.

An ex workmate told me similar. He rode a DR Big from the UK to South Africa back in the day. He was told in no uncertain terms that he was risking his life traveling through a number of African countries. He survived to tell the tale and reckoned most of the potential bandits, militia, crims, etc thought he was poor and probably crazy. They targeted tourists in 4wd's.

[old slider]

edit due to wrong thread.

[Big Dog]

Maybe there is something to the mlc. I have never wanted an HD or other imperial cruiser before.

For some reason since my last birthday I have been lusting after custom cruisers. Luckily I lack the bank to have a proper meltdown so I can only I'm not half way yet.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[old slider]

Maybe there is something to the mlc. I have never wanted an HD or other imperial cruiser before.

For some reason since my last birthday I have been lusting after custom cruisers. Luckily I lack the bank to have a proper meltdown so I can only I'm not half way yet.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

Must be that magic age? somewhere between 45 and 80, lol There are plenty of nice cruisers around for about a third of the cost of those wonderful monarchial machines.

[Big Dog]

Must be that magic age? somewhere between 45 and 80, lol There are plenty of nice cruisers around for about a third of the cost of those wonderful monarchial machines.
Not yet 45.
At 40 I still loved my Haysbusa but sold it to buy a more practical CB1300.
At 41 I suddenly wanted a big adventure bike.
At 42 I had a hankering for a litre plus café racer.
At 42 and a half I now also find myself curious about a large metric cruiser.

Not crossed over yet. But at 40 I'm not sure I would have bought a cruiser... even if it was a steal.
2.5 years later I want to try one.

I guess you could say I am becoming more and now bike curious.

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