Winter Layup - 1995 Ducati 900 Supersport [Archive]

OddDuck

1st May 2016, 09:07

Engine stands.

Had to think about this for a while... I want the engine on a waist-level stand, mounted so it can be rotated. I wasn't sure if I had to split the cases yet, but I know that both heads and barrels have to come off. I want access to side covers and accessories as well.

So, first the engine (which doesn't have a flat base) has to be supported while the frame is lifted off, then it has to be raised somehow (there are no lifting tabs), then it can be mounted in a standard car engine stand with some kind of adaptor bracket.

I took some measurements with a steel rule and calipers, working with the bike on a rear stand. Then it was DXF's to a mate - Kiwi perk time, amazing what you can do with connections and beers. Turned out that the side plates fit OK first time. The U-bracket got folded slightly tight, so I opened it up a little with a trolley jack.

The stand comes in two stages: the side plates, for supporting the engine at ground level or on a bench, and the U-channel, for holding the engine in the car engine stand. The side plates have rectangular holes so lifting slings can be run through. This might be a bit dodgy in practice, they'll be side loaded and the whole thing will be top heavy, but don't know 'till I try.

It'd be nice to finish these in something better than rust... I've made a start on primer, but does anyone have a recommendation for a powdercoater in the Lower Hutt area?

AllanB

1st May 2016, 09:19

Ducati's taste for undersized fastener heads. For whatever reason their engineers just love bolts with a hex the next size down from standard.

And loctite. They love loctite. Oh the positive side - you don't want your side stand falling off! (I watched that happen to a old Triumph years back) fell off in front of me. They bounce a fair bit .... I stopped picked it up and carried on catching the rider up. He stopped at the same destination I was heading to (Little River) looking very confused at the missing stand. Then laughed when I produced it.

OddDuck

1st May 2016, 20:10

Separating frame and motor, hoisting engine.

The frame lifts straight off the motor, after removing airbox, carburettors, coils, clutch slave and wiring. Undo two long 10mm bolts and that's it. These can be rusted in, CRC and a long drift may be needed. It helps a lot to get the frame lightly supported, I had to fiddle a bit with tipping the motor supports back and then propping up the front wheel.

The swingarm has a couple of snap rings (not circlips) on its pivot axle. I'd bought snap ring pliers for another job earlier so that wasn't a problem... the ghetto tool I guess would be a pair of flat blade screwdrivers used flat to flat. Wear safety glasses, sometimes these things come off at high speed. I used one of the frame bolts (carefully) as a drift to get the pivot axle out, after wedging a screwdriver into each swingarm clamp to open them up.

The motor hoist went better than it had any right to, the motor stand plates didn't need cross bracing or anything. A chain block and four 300kg tie-down straps were used. Using individual tiedowns meant I could get tension on each line set properly before the lift, to keep things straight. Base lift / topheavy load / tipping motor... not good.

Getting the motor into the stand's piece of channel: line up the lower bolt, put it through, release tension on the chainblock until the rear tie-downs relax. Remove these, wind up chainblock again to tip motor upward, line up upper bolt. Nuts on and done. I used the frame bolts off the bike, since they were long enough and would fit through the motor casings, but it might be smart to get some cheap M10's before too long. Don't want to bend the good ones, all too easy to do if I'm undoing tough fasteners on the engine.

OddDuck

5th May 2016, 22:49

And loctite. They love loctite. Oh the positive side - you don't want your side stand falling off!

Maybe that's a good thing - I'm finding a lot of non-loctited fasteners (my own running repairs) coming off with a lot less torque than they had going in...

OddDuck

5th May 2016, 22:54

Degrease / wash engine, before taking anything apart. Paintwork's looking pretty shabby unfortunately. I'll have to be careful about the bits of gravel still stuck to the engine, close to the barrels.

george formby

6th May 2016, 09:24

A mate of mine is sitting on two 900ss' at the mo. He is swapping motors and no doubt has a lot of spare parts, both bikes are in good nick apart from his motor issue, summit happened with the alternator which damaged the engine casing.

Let me know if you want to get in touch for some bits.

OddDuck

6th May 2016, 10:47

george formby

6th May 2016, 14:52

That'd be awesome, thanks mate. A bindup on the alternator?

Not exactly sure. IIRC their was a bit of play somewhere, which led to a bearing issue, which led to 2 bikes in the shed.
He was telling me about a guy locally who specialises in Ducati's and has a shed full of stuff. Who would have thought, in Northland?

Any hoo, he talked about parting out one of the bikes so I just thought I'd mention it.

Voltaire

6th May 2016, 16:46

Not exactly sure. IIRC their was a bit of play somewhere, which led to a bearing issue, which led to 2 bikes in the shed.
He was telling me about a guy locally who specialises in Ducati's and has a shed full of stuff. Who would have thought, in Northland?

Any hoo, he talked about parting out one of the bikes so I just thought I'd mention it.

Probably the bloke who built Mike Hailwoods 1978 TT winning bike.

http://sportsmotorcyclesducati.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Whatever-happened-to-Steve-Wynne-PDF.pdf

george formby

6th May 2016, 17:06

Corse1

6th May 2016, 20:35

Cool that you are getting stuck into it. Be there one day myself on the ST I guess as I will never sell it and have owned for 10 years so far. Following with interest.

nzspokes

6th May 2016, 20:53

Crikey. I've met him but had no idea of his background. Had I done so I would have offered to lick his feet clean, despite my only Italian possession being a bag of pasta. He's 20 minutes away.

Quite remarkable, some great knowledge and skill in my wee, back water region.

I have heard rumour of another expat round here who makes F1 exhausts, or used to, but keeps his hand in.

Cheers for that link.

Its funny who you meet.

I worked with an old guy and had interesting lunch time conversations with him. Wasnt until later when talking about carbs he mentioned he had worked for Deleroto (sp). His understanding of carbs was stunning and I learnt lots from him.

nzspokes

6th May 2016, 20:55

AllanB

6th May 2016, 21:31

Colour match should be easy enough. You may need to take a engine case or similar to a specialist colour shop.

Only the truly anal will spot the difference but then they will tell you you are not running factory tyres either.

PS - don't forget to drain the oil

OddDuck

6th May 2016, 22:03

Oil drained, did it before the engine got chocked and the frame lifted off.

Paint - weighing up what to do. Pre paint prep, what's involved? Durability of the paint itself? Rattlecan OK? Or bite the bullet and get the compressor and the spray bottle?

There's a very good shop selling goodies for auto body repair - English wheel in the window, specialist sanding blocks etc etc - and they have a paint mixing facility. Colour match won't be a problem and they can do custom pots and rattlecans.

OddDuck

6th May 2016, 22:20

Quick note, before I forget again... found an earth on the front subframe, presumably grounding instruments and possibly the headlight.

If that's so then no wonder the headlight's not too good. The subframe's basically floating, electrically speaking. It's bolted to the main frame in four points, but that's through layers of paint and then rust. There's no properly defined electrical contact, it's more just done through the idea that a bolt will cut through paint when tightened. Bit rough really.

I'll be putting in a dedicated earth line on the rebuild.

OddDuck

6th May 2016, 22:22

I presume from that you cant re-paint the motor in the correct colour?

Twenty years of heat, plus water, gravel etc - just degraded over time really.

nzspokes

6th May 2016, 22:25

OddDuck

7th May 2016, 18:46

Chain tool arrived in less than 24 hours - thanks Cycletreads - and I opened the chain and then washed it and the swingarm. Kerosene first, then water soluble degreaser.

One of the links back from the joiner is stiff as hell, the rest of the chain seems OK, but the rust on the pin plus the wear doesn't look good. Chain's been with me since I bought the bike (at 36,000 miles), so I guess it doesn't owe me anything. I'd gone to wax recently, after seeing this I'll revert to oil chain lube.

Looks like the swingarm isn't original, either - it's stamped with a date, 5-03, presumably a replacement for the alloy original, which was notorious for cracking.

OddDuck

7th May 2016, 18:51

Vertical head's off. I'd read that the O-rings connecting the head to the cylinder, for the oil return lines, will set under compression and heat and then leak... looks like it has happened here.

There's no head gasket, just a spigot - makes putting the head back on fairly easy.

Loads of carbon fouling in the head and on the piston crown. The Nikasil cylinder lining looked OK, but there was barely any oil on it.

The photos show the motor inverted for head removal - I did this so that any small stones caught in the gap between cylinder and head would fall down, away from the engine.

george formby

7th May 2016, 19:08

Bumped imto my mate toady, he of due Ducati. More than happy for me to pass his number on. Having said that, he has not started on swapping the motors. It won't be express delivery.

OddDuck

7th May 2016, 20:13

Bumped imto my mate toady, he of due Ducati. More than happy for me to pass his number on. Having said that, he has not started on swapping the motors. It won't be express delivery.

Sweet. Still at the stage of getting the shopping list together... might be a while yet!!

Voltaire

8th May 2016, 11:00

nzspokes

8th May 2016, 11:29

Best thread on KB.

That bore looks good.

OddDuck

8th May 2016, 13:22

I've got a Superlight and did a lot of research before buying it as had a 600 then a 900ss.

this is a good forum for info.
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/
I think there is a sludge trap that is worth cleaning and updating the plug on the crank.
I found California Cycle Works good to http://ca-cycleworks.com/
Got belts off them.
My 900ss ie had rust issues in the tank from water, might be good to look inside tank and replace all the pump pipes too.
My mate is building a 750 F1 replica replica and has dealt with NZ places and there is one in the lower SI that he would never deal with again.
Keep us posted :sunny:

Thanks - I've been on the ducati.ms forums quite a bit for info over the years, some good stuff floating around there. I've heard the crank plug mentioned several times but never seen it... still deciding if I want to go the whole hog with this motor and split the main cases. Next step is to get both heads and barrels off and test play in the big end bearings, if not good then the split's going to happen.

California Cycleworks used to be 5-star awesome, the guy who started it and runs the place has a long history with the Dukes and knows his stuff inside out. Unfortunately they've really restricted their catalogue lately. Crying damn shame. They'd had the best FCR41 kit on the market, at least for the SS bikes.

Tank's up for work - want to replace the fuel level sensor. It crapped out about a year ago and I've been using the tripmeter ever since, mostly because of the ridiculous prices that local dealers want for the part. First Stein Dinse order is being put together (apologies George, some things you want brand new, can't afford bits like camshafts though so have to test what I've got and make a call...)

I know the outfit you mention and have to say that I've been moving away from being a customer of his, for some time now. He's let me down with a couple of pricey components before, also sold me some used parts were somewhat 'ahem' optimistically described. I wanted to keep him sweet in case I needed something fast, or if a bit came up that I needed, so didn't push it. Been fired as a customer before, don't want it to happen again. Very common Kiwi story unfortunately.

If anyone in the trade is reading this - it's not the complaints that you need to listen to. It's the silence.

Voltaire

8th May 2016, 14:46

I bought a 900ss off a mate, it had a new Nitron shock on it and other goodies, but I wanted to fit FCR's to it and carbon exhausts... you do the numbers and they start to add up.
Then this came up a Jap import with about 27 K on it, for about $1500 more than I sold the SS for.
321399
Already had FCRS and Termis on it, so did a bit of asset stripping on the SS as they don't add any value from a sellers perspective.
I find its a bit hard to start with no chokes but goes really well. The Nitron is a great improvement over stock.
Next job is bin the ignition and fit one of Fast Bike Gear's Ignitech systems. Had one on my race BMW for a few years and goes well.
I haven't bought any parts for it since I've had it so a bit out of touch with Ducati's. I'm so used to buying parts on the net now I hardly buy anything here other than consumables.

OddDuck

8th May 2016, 15:50

Mint bike mate - envy!

Concerning difficulty cold starting - I had this problem last winter and finally traced it to shitty CDI's. Cracked potting was letting moisture in to the electronics. Since bits of these operate at 150 Vdc or so, it doesn't take much moisture to lead to insulation breakdown and charge dissipation. I'd thought it was cold mornings and cold petrol, since it never seemed to happen in warm conditions. Baking the CDI's (gently) at 65 C for about 6 hours, and then coating the potting face in silicone seal grease, has worked wonders. Might be useful if you need a temporary fix before you can get your replacements.

Carrying on with the layup...

Here's what happened to the top front right frame rail. The crack goes a nearly equal distance under the gusset, tracing the same line. You can see weld beads from the earlier repair, close to the headstock.

Kickaha

8th May 2016, 16:41

Is that gusset factory? the 900SS I have in the garage doesn't have it

I am sure the book I have on chassis designing/building by Tony Foale advises against welding across the ends

nzspokes

8th May 2016, 16:47

Is that gusset factory? the 900SS I have in the garage doesn't have it

I am sure the book I have on chassis designing/building by Tony Foale advises against welding across the ends

Yeah he already said that its been fixed once by F1 engineering.

OddDuck

8th May 2016, 18:22

I've got the same book and you're right, Foale said to avoid this. He also said to weld at the neutral axis of the flexure, if possible on both sides of the frame member. This gusset has been welded on the highest stress plane. The ideal gusset would have been a piece of channel shaped and placed like the gusset, welded top and bottom straight edges, but not over the curves around the tube's circumference. It's not intuitive at all.

So far my thinking is - weld the crack up, leave a decent bead, and install a cross member to complete the triangle, as the bottom part of the frame has been made. The gusset can then stay as is.

The snag is that the airbox then doesn't go in. Even if I modify it, it'll be a pig to get into place.

Removable frame element, maybe?

OddDuck

8th May 2016, 19:07

Back to the engine... Got the horizontal head off, then both barrels and pistons. It turned out that water and winter had attacked the horizontal cylinder head studs and nuts - they'd rusted on. I tried using the open end of a 15mm combination spanner, nearly ripped a nut up, then ground the ring end down until it'd sneak into place under the camshaft housing.

Barrels were taken off with the motor inverted so that gravel chips wouldn't fall into the cases... just as well, had quite a few stones come off. I'll have to take an hour and go around the cases with a screwdriver, might do that later tonight.

There's what looks like powdered aluminium clumped up in the squish zone of the head. Not good. Really not good. The spigot faces are showing fretting damage (both cylinders, worst on the horizontal), and it's pretty obvious that the horizontal cylinder has been running very lean. Both heads are showing nasty oiling. The rings actually look OK, there doesn't seem to be any gunking in the oil control ring or either of the seal rings. What I've seen of the valves shows oiling on both the combustion and port sides, so chances are that it's oil leakage along the stem and guide.

Cylinders actually look alright. Minor scoring on the horizontal, nothing major, and the vertical looks just the same as the last time I'd had the heads off.

O-rings throughout have squashed and set. Clear evidence of oil leaks on the return oil line in the horizontal cylinder.

Conrod bearings actually seem OK, no excessive play, and I noticed a 'B' engraved into the horizontal conrod, as well as '530' engraved into the underside of the engine case. Someone's rebuilt this before.

OddDuck

8th May 2016, 19:12

Looks like I only get 6 pics a time. Here's a couple that should have gone with the previous post.

Cylinder head studs are quite a picture... vertical looks mint, horizontal looks like salvage from a junkyard. Ducati's design leaves a gap between head and cylinder, so the water kicked up from the front wheel gets in... not the best really.

Right, off to get stones off the cases and out of the head and barrel fins.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 08:46

Got into it again last night and got thinking - I'd value contributions.

1) Ducati OEM valve guide seals really aren't all that good. This is the second time I've had the heads off and both times the valves have been oiled, piston crowns and combustion chambers carboned up. The seal is just a rubber teat, basically. There's no positive clamp around the guide head beyond the rubber's own tension.
Every car valve seal I've ever seen has a metal body over the rubber for the guide head, a spring for the valve stem, and has to be punched into place with a socket. Am placing an order for these:

http://www.athenaparts.com/eng/products/view/5241/valve-stem-seals-kit

As soon as I can figure out their diabolical website... it is a cunt of a thing. Try shopping on it and you'll see what I mean. Gasket quality looks top notch though.

2) It's probably worth making and installing an insulator between the cylinder head and the inlet stub pipes. Currently these are directly coupled to the head and so conduct engine heat to the incoming fuel-air mix, before induction and compression. There were several times over the summer where I got stuck in traffic on very warm days and the bike got seriously loud - it quietened again once we were rolling and had some slipstream to work with. Can't speak for power. The effect got quite worrying, if it's that hot going in then how hot is combustion and exhaust becoming? The inlet stubs seemed to vary in temperature quite a bit, although I didn't take measurements.

Voltaire

10th May 2016, 09:28

The early to mid 90's head studs are known to snap, are you going to get new ones?
How important are valve guide seals? Air cooled BMW's don't have them.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 10:28

The early to mid 90's head studs are known to snap, are you going to get new ones?
How important are valve guide seals? Air cooled BMW's don't have them.

OK, I hadn't known that about the head studs. Given the corrosion and overheating that's been going on, it's probably a good idea to replace them.

Valve guide seals are needed on this bike, Ducati screwed up in the head design (again), the vertical cylinder seems to have permanent puddles of oil at both inlet and exhaust seals.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 19:06

Scraping the carbon deposits off the piston crowns, using a relatively soft, smooth-edged knife blade and turpentine as a working fluid. The snag with doing this is that fragments of carbon will have washed down to the ring grooves, I'll have to clean those later. The rings have to come off to be checked for wear anyway - the technique is to fit them to their bore, at the lower part of the stroke, and measure end gap with a feeler gauge.

There are a lot of scratches on the piston at left. I made a mistake and used a brass wire brush on the carbon at first, before trying the knife.

nzspokes

10th May 2016, 19:14

You would not just fit new rings anyway?

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 19:42

Pulling the valves out of the heads, prior to scrubbing valve faces, combustion chambers and ports.

I've got the rag balled up under the head, to fill the combustion chamber and support the valve. Sequence is:

Pull clip, using 2mm Allen key

Find spot in camshaft rotation where rocker arm will slide across

Lift off opening shim

Slide rocker arm back into place, rotate camshaft again to lower rocker arms (lower arm won't move; the closing spring holds it up)

Push down on lower arm using flat screwdriver, to lower closing shim on valve stem and open up closing shim collets

Pull these off with either fingers (best) or magnetic pickup tool (probably a crappy idea).

Pull closing shim off, valve should now pull free.

I had to lever the closing shim off with needle-nosed pliers wrapped in a rag, though. The closing shims have been working a ridge of metal out into the inner diameter. The shims themselves are supposed to be re-inserted the same way up that they came off, but I'm stuffed if I know how to spot that.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 20:00

You would not just fit new rings anyway?

Weeellll... Curious, more than anything else. But you're right, it's the smart thing to do.

nzspokes

10th May 2016, 20:07

Weeellll... Curious, more than anything else. But you're right, it's the smart thing to do.

Fair call, I would be checking the gap etc of the old ones as well.

AllanB

10th May 2016, 20:21

New rings should be a given. It's apart, if the bore is in spec a very mild hone and new rings. Ready to roll.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 20:23

Athena's valve seals are basically Ducati OEM - as in I think they're the supplier. Damn. Looks like I'll have to clean up a cylinder head and then go see a seal import house to see what they can do for me.

OddDuck

10th May 2016, 20:26

New rings should be a given. It's apart, if the bore is in spec a very mild hone and new rings. Ready to roll.

Nikasil bore, never re-hone.

I didn't re-ring last time because I was quoted $400 per piston for the rings by the local dealer. Stein Dinse have them for Euro 75, so yeah, re-ring time.

AllanB

10th May 2016, 20:30

Nikasil bore, never re-hone.

I didn't re-ring last time because I was quoted $400 per piston for the rings by the local dealer. Stein Dinse have them for Euro 75, so yeah, re-ring time.

Ah good point - I must be getting old, keep forgetting about the fancy pants coatings now. Hmm So begs the question - is there anyone in NZ who can recoat bores or is it a replacement barrel when it's past service.

Kickaha

10th May 2016, 20:47

Ah good point - I must be getting old, keep forgetting about the fancy pants coatings now. Hmm So begs the question - is there anyone in NZ who can recoat bores or is it a replacement barrel when it's past service.

NZ cylinders in Ashvegas, I had my MHR cylinders done there, they can actually hone them but need a special wanky hone

Voltaire

10th May 2016, 20:51

Ah good point - I must be getting old, keep forgetting about the fancy pants coatings now. Hmm So begs the question - is there anyone in NZ who can recoat bores or is it a replacement barrel when it's past service.

Yeah those new fangled nikasil coatings that came out on BMW's only 35 years ago.:rolleyes:
You need the correct rings for them too.

OddDuck

12th May 2016, 22:24

Next bit of progress - combustion chambers cleaned. I used straight turpentine, the knife from before, 2000-grit wet & dry for inside the chambers, 180 grit for rough dusting in ports, and a plastic dish brush. About an hour per head, wearing normal dishwash gloves. I plugged all oil feeds and the valve guides with earplugs first, don't want gritty bits of carbon in the valvetrain if I can help it.

It's probably no match for whatever the professionals have in a dunk tank but the turps did seem to work.

OddDuck

14th May 2016, 20:56

Valves cleaned. 48-hour soak in turps, knife for scraping, 280-grit wet'n'dry for finishing. The carbon had softened up nicely if it wasn't burned on.

Turns out that the exhaust valve has a stepped diameter, the inlet doesn't. Valve sealing surfaces aren't perfect but there are no massive defects.

OddDuck

14th May 2016, 21:01

Finally got around to stripping the frame completely. I ended up having to sit it on a ladder to get the front end taken apart and removed - possible to wheel it into place since a mate showed up and helped, I would have struggled on my own. The new head bearings I put in last time, about three years ago, are starting to show the first signs of wear - cleaning and regreasing should be an every winter thing, I guess.

OddDuck

14th May 2016, 21:25

Cylinder head studs: Been doing some reading and am in two minds about changing them out.

The back story is that Ducati OEM head studs were dodgy up till '93, when there was a revision. The revision wasn't 100% successful and in 1995 the studs were revised again. This improved things but the wisdom is that bikes ridden hard, hi-comp'd - or toured - need head studs to be upgraded. First studs apparently had M stamped on their visible ends and were bright finished, second studs were bright finished with no stamp, and the final OEM revision was black finish.

Ca Cycleworks have specials from APE: https://ca-cycleworks.com/cs900d ($13 USD x 8)

Nicholson have head studs: http://www.nicholssportbikes.com/products/NCYLSTUDS.html ($280 / set)

Users on Ducati.ms have said that the APE studs are perhaps a little loose in the threads but either is an improvement over OEM.

Now, here's why I'm in two minds: the originals were threadlocked in. Bearing in mind that only people who this happens to will mention it, there are horror stories out there of studs snapping off at or even inside engine cases. The stud steel has been hardened. If this happens, it's got to be drilled out with armoured bits, that drilling has to be on-center and in line... one savvy user made up a steel adaptor plate and used a magnetic base drill:

http://www.ducatitech.com/info/cyl_stud.html

The wisdom for preventing 'the snap' is penetrating oil for at least 24 hours prior, then a propane torch onto the engine cases to soften the threadlock. Then lots of back and forth while unscrewing to try to prevent bindups.

So for me it's about 50-50: a stud breaking on the road would be pretty shit. Having a stud break while trying to extract would also be pretty shit. Have to sleep on this.

OddDuck

14th May 2016, 21:30

Had a look at options for reinforcing the frame, too. My preferred choice would be to complete the triangle at the top front. The problem is that the stock airbox occupies the space that the new frame tube would cross.

I photographed the airbox in the bare frame (see attached), it's a surprise to see how steeply angled it is. Anyone out there ever had a go at making their own airbox?

BMWST?

15th May 2016, 09:34

dunno if anyone has responded to your powder coating question but i got a battery box and something else of my 89 r 100 gs powder coated at a place on port road right next to Howard Material Handling.Seemed a good job but they have a minimum charge so make it worthwhile!Make sure you mask any bits you dont want coated because they may not.

edit looks like 51 port road.No special recomendation i think i was doing something With Byron at HMH and saw the sign.

Kickaha

15th May 2016, 09:57

Now, here's why I'm in two minds: the originals were threadlocked in. Bearing in mind that only people who this happens to will mention it, there are horror stories out there of studs snapping off at or even inside engine cases. The stud steel has been hardened. If this happens, it's got to be drilled out with armoured bits, that drilling has to be on-center and in line... one savvy user made up a steel adaptor plate and used a magnetic base drill:

I would be trying spark erosion if that happened

OddDuck

15th May 2016, 14:44

OddDuck

15th May 2016, 14:48

I would be trying spark erosion if that happened

Of course!!

Absolutely right, it should be a doddle for any half-competent shop.

OddDuck

15th May 2016, 17:08

Lifted the engine again, got the adaptor to the car engine stand off, notched it so that I can access the swingarm bearings.

Also cleaned the cylinder base gasket rings up (CRC and 800-grit paper) for re-use.

OddDuck

16th May 2016, 23:10

Front subframe and swingarm off at powder coater's - Powder Coating Services, 51 Port Road. The boss runs a VFR800, took a minute from his (frantic) day to have a chat with me... good stuff.

Had my 8 - 12 mm bore transfer gauge arrive tonight, so I got stuck in. Engine measurement time.

The transfer gauge (in photo, by micrometer) takes an internal diameter, then you pull the gauge out and put the micrometer onto it. $40 out of Trade Tools. Way cheaper than a specialist bore gauge, if not as convenient. It also can't be used in a reverse taper, since it can't be withdrawn while locked.

Piston rings were measured as per factory manual procedure - insert into relevant cylinder at base of stroke, push it in square (I used the piston), then measure end gap with a feeler gauge. It's down a way because there's a bit of an insertion taper, you want the ring sitting in the parallel part of the bore.

Anyway - results:

All compression rings are at their service limits.

Both oil control rings are (just) beyond their wear limits.

Both intake valve guide clearances are at or beyond their service limits.

Both exhaust valve guide clearances are at or beyond their wear limits.

So that's pretty clear. New rings, new guides. Maybe new valves. I'll have to check what the valve stem diameters are supposed to be brand new and compare that to what I've got. There are still a few measurements to do - gudgeon pin and piston skirt clearances - but I'll need more gear for that.

The main thing I'm taking from this night's work is that going on feel and guesswork is fine but measuring is knowing... I wouldn't have picked how bad the oil control rings were getting to be.

OddDuck

21st May 2016, 17:53

More measurements, this time the pistons and cylinders. One of the big decisions was to re-ring or go for high-comp pistons.

So -

Ring end float within service limits

Gudgeon pin to piston - apparently on wear limit, but it's a very close tolerance, very easy to exaggerate measurement with the gear I'm using.

Piston skirt to cylinder wall within service limits - same issue as above. The transfer gauges work well with small diameters but get tricky with the bigger stuff. It's easy to go narrower than the full diameter, giving a low result, or angle the thing and get a high result. It took several tries to get results I was happy with.

Cylinder taper and ovality below limits of measurement, decision made that they're both OK.

I measured valve seats as well. The test is the width of the contact ring, it's supposed to be between 1mm to 1.5mm wide. The horizontal head was on that limit, the vertical limit came in at 1.8mm exhaust and 1.7mm inlet. The exhaust valve seat shows visible recession, with a lip forming at the outer edge, over the valve head.

So pistons and cylinders are good to re-ring and go, but the heads need new valve seats.

OddDuck

21st May 2016, 18:05

Gudgeon pins and small end bushings checked out as being within service limits as well.

Then I got onto the clutch... I'd been on tour with a mate and had a momentary problem with the clutch. It started slipping on half-throttle or more. Pulling over, shutting down, and working the clutch a few times sorted it out for the rest of the trip. Worth checking while I've got the motor in bits, and anyway it has to come off if I'm pulling the cover.

So here's the famous dry Ducati clutch being pulled to bits. The sequence is:

- Cover off
- 6 springs off
- Pressure plate off (the throw rod might come with it, if it's jammed in - it'll pull clear)
- Lock the clutch up and undo the 32mm nut from the hub
- Remove locking tool
- steels and friction plates pulled and stacked. I chose to number them (not really necessary), a magnetic pickup tool is very helpful for this.
- Locking tool back on, undo 8 x M8 bolts
- clutch basket off

It sounds like a big drama but really takes about an hour.

OddDuck

21st May 2016, 18:22

Having a closer look at the clutch now that it's on the bench.

The clutch cover is gouged (a little) on its inside. This cover must have had a gasket at some point, now it's running close to the spring cups. Not good.

The O-rings on the pushrod are well and truly shot. There was engine oil inside the hub, thankfully it hadn't made it to the plates... not sure where it's coming from, possibly a loose gasket, or a failing shaft seal. Either that's been happening with the bike running, or oil has been flowing with the motor turned on the stand.

The anodisation on the cheapo no-brand hub has gone notchy. Really notchy. The OEM Ducati hub isn't finished in any way, this kind of thing happening might be why. The steels have to be free to slide back and forth on the hub - if they don't then the clutch won't release properly. Not a problem when rolling but it can make neutral difficult to find, especially with a short-throw clutch slave like one of the Oberons.

The cheap hub is also badly dimensioned. There's a spigot at center which is there to locate the petal washer, but it's just a shade too tall. The petal washer at center isn't gripped by the main nut properly, it's been rattling back and forth instead and is notching its way into the spring posts.

The basket is notched too. This is an old basket which I'd filed out previously... it's well beyond the usual flange clearance to the friction plates, but works. Sort of. A closer look showed a mix of friction plate dust and rust forming a layer on the inside of the basket fingers. With a loose flange clearance, sometimes the friction plates can run on these surfaces. If they jam up on dust and rust, the whole stack could go angled... slipping clutch follows. Maybe.

OddDuck

21st May 2016, 18:30

Here's the engine oil pump cover coming off. Note the oil and dust spray behind the clutch basket, it wasn't like this the last time I got into the clutch. Looks like one or both of the seals have gone.

There's an O-ring (partially squashed and set) just inside this engine cover, not sure of its position in the oil circuit yet. The pump itself had a couple more. Someone's been in here before, there was a recoil used in one of the pump's mounting threads.

The oil pump comes off easily with three screws, loosen the oil pump cover screws first though. The oil pump itself is checked with a feeler gauge and straightedge.

Clearance between rotor gear tips and housing - very good

End play clearance - outside spec

Rotor tooth to tooth clearance - well outside spec

Interesting, I haven't been having any issues with low oil pressure warnings.

98tls

21st May 2016, 18:43

Applaud your work mate good on you,should get off my arse and give my old S some lovin to be honest.

AllanB

22nd May 2016, 00:20

Applaud your work mate good on you,should get off my arse and give my old S some lovin to be honest.

Agree. I've had a tail tidy project in various stages in my garage all year. Given the above work I should pull finger and fit the bloody thing tomorrow.

Voltaire

22nd May 2016, 08:57

Your getting close to splitting the cases.

I was talking to a mate who is building an F1 replica ( replica) and the cracking of the frames came up. He said the frames are not made of anything special and the cracking is common. He went on to say that fitting an internal sleeve was the way to go but that probably means more work I'd say.
He said there is a guy called Muzza who is a good guy to deal with in ChCh as he has got parts and info from him. ( can't be too many Muzza's who work on Ducatis :laugh:)

ruaphu

22nd May 2016, 11:36

Brilliant thread OD, great work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OddDuck

22nd May 2016, 18:39

98TLS, AllanB, Voltaire, Ruaphu - thanks guys. Appreciate your support.

Voltaire - thanks for the idea about the frame. Not quite sure what you mean - do I cut a length of tubing out of the frame completely? What's involved?

OddDuck

22nd May 2016, 19:04

And carrying on... working again today.

I started with the clutch, doing things like measuring the plates and steels (all OK), the plate tang clearance (miles out, since I'd filed the basket fingers linear again), then I got sidetracked. First, there's the star washer, which has been rattling around and cutting its way into the spring posts. Second, the clutch has been either a pig to get into neutral, or if neutral's sweet, it slips under power... it got me thinking.

The star washer was simple - shave a couple of components down in the right places via 180-grit wet'n'dry, CRC, and a flat block. Crush is then restored to where it should be.

The clutch, though. I had a look at the basket, the hub, and the steels, and I reckon Ducati's made a bit of a design mistake. The steels are punch-pressed from sheet metal and then deburred in a vibratory tub. They are not chamfered.

This means that after the steels have very slightly cut their way into the hub (which is much softer), there's an edge which can easily bind up during the linear travel that the clutch plate assembly has to do while releasing or engaging. It's made worse by the anodised hub, since the anodised skin isn't wearing smoothly down to parent metal. It's coming off in sharp-edged flakes instead. Even it this wasn't happening, the steels having no taper whatever means that they can't climb any sort of angle without digging in.

Taper (chamfer) needed: I spent three hours going over them with a needle file. I was careful with vise compression and not bending the steels.

This did improve things, trying plates on the hub while applying torque and comparing to non-filed originals. Much less notchy. The chamfer has to be big enough to overcome wear features but no more - say about 0.05 mm high by 0.1 wide, or something like that. It has to be on every face of the steel's internal spline.

OddDuck

22nd May 2016, 19:26

Taking the alternator cover off.

First, you don't have to have the special tool. It can be done with a pillar bearing puller and a couple of long M6 bolts with mudguard washers. The permanent magnet for the alternator is quite strong and a controlled motion is needed. It takes about twenty minutes to get the cover off.

A few notes... the gasket turned out to have a bend and a split. This is from fitting it with the motor in the frame, about six months ago when I had to replace the stator. Next time I fit gaskets, they're going on horizontal, so they sit where they should. 100% my fault, and a reminder for this job: check everything. I would never have expected to see a gasket bend in situ and tear like this.

The stator windings and wiring is fine, the seal on the case cover isn't. It leaks like hell. There was oil everywhere when I stripped the bike down, I'll have to revise what I've done here... and the plain PVC sheath on the wiring (as supplied by the aftermarket stator manufacturer) was simply not up to the job. It's gone hard. I'll have to cut it from the wiring before I try to remove the stator.

Last time I'd been in to this cover, I'd found the reason for the hesitation when using the starter motor (it really struggled). It was loose on its three mounting screws. The path for the current uses this mounting and depends on having a broad contact area. If you're having similar trouble getting the engine to turn over, try grabbing the starter and making sure it's tight to the engine.

OddDuck

23rd May 2016, 20:38

Tonight's effort: have a go at taking the cylinder studs off.

CRC 5.56 applied liberally, then I got stuck in with a poor man's stud extractor. It's just a pair of nuts tightened against each other, with either a flat or spring washer between them.

I was careful with tightening them up: that was done with the spanners as close to each other as possible. Don't want to load the stud up sideways, not when it's this long - too easy to snap it off at the root. Unscrewing is then with the handle on top and using both hands, one each side with the sliding handle centered. If that's not enough, the spanner and handle at 180 degrees and equal force up and down on each side. Pure torque, no bending.

The studs themselves actually did come out reasonably easily. No Loctite present, surprisingly. I did a lot of working back and forth during unscrewing, using CRC and making sure that the threads weren't binding up. It turned out that zinc plated nuts didn't grip chromed studs as well as plain stainless steel nuts did, and then in turn high-tensile steel nuts were better on the black finished studs. Also it turned out that this technique is limited to about 30 Nm. I couldn't quite get the very last stud.

eldog

23rd May 2016, 21:19

Ocean1

23rd May 2016, 21:36

I couldn't quite get the very last stud.

http://tradetools.co.nz/products/2850100

Blow the 556 out with the compressed air, warm the area, spray the PB blaster around the stud root and leave it a couple hrs.

Also, whereas usually an impact driver would be the go, over that length it'll be less effective. A bunch of light smacks on top of those nuts with a half pound steel hammer would probably help though.

Oh, and if you're going to put stainless nuts on stainless studs use a liberal fingerfull of high nickel anti-seize paste on the thread.

OddDuck

23rd May 2016, 22:42

Thanks Ocean1. Forgot to mention, I have been using the hammer on the stud ends before attempting to undo - solid taps, nothing harder. The idea (I think) is to break any metal oxide welds, where screw has been corroding into housing. Hasn't been a problem on these though.

The stainless steel nuts are just being used on high chrome studs for loosening, they're not going on for reassembly. Like tends to grip like and this is useful for the poor man's stud puller, this is about the only time that stuff with a tendency to cold weld together is actually a good thing.

The last one - I don't think it's all that big a drama, it's just that it needs more torque than I can transmit through two nuts tightened against each other. Might be time to stop being cheap and get the proper mechanic's stud pullers, there have been enough times over the years that M6 / M8 / M10 studs have been needing to be changed.

That PB Blaster stuff looks the business, thanks for the link!

Ocean1

24th May 2016, 13:33

That PB Blaster stuff looks the business, thanks for the link!

One of the very few "new, improved" magic potions that mostly do what they say on the can.

pete376403

24th May 2016, 20:40

I have had pretty good success with this type of stud extractor http://www.trademe.co.nz/building-renovation/tools/hand-tools/other/auction-1090635120.htm (only referencing this for the picture, not this particular item)

OddDuck

24th May 2016, 22:38

Got onto Trade Tools and ordered the PB Blaster this morning, plus one of the Facom 10mm stud pullers (same design as your link Pete). Not cheap - $85 for one - but I know the brand and I reckon that this is one of the jobs to get done right. Bucks up front hurts, but it hurts less than big bucks later if I screw it up.

No disassembly tonight, instead I'm chasing one of several ideas that I've been playing with for a while. I want to run a few calculations about the way that the bike works.

Surprise result from earlier: 70% of the heat conducted to the inlet stub pipes comes through the pair of M8 mounting studs. Only about 30% goes through the 0.4mm paper washer, despite the relatively massive surface area. I want to get that inlet temperature down, so insulating top hat washers are on the to-do list, along with before and after measurements.

Tonight was about checking inlet pipe and airbox volume, via (I really hope there's a proper word for this technique) filling them with water and then pouring out into a measuring cup, via a bucket and in stages if necessary. I sealed up with masking tape and whatever was to hand, it only had to hold water for a few seconds.

Results:

Inlet stub pipe: 37mm diameter, 160mm path length (approximately), 150 mL internal volume.

Airbox lid: 1.7 litres

Airbox body: 4.1 litres

I'd briefly checked parts lists earlier and found that the inlet pipes seem to be unique to the 900cc motor. The 600cc version uses a different part, indicating that these may be a tuned item. The airbox is common to the two bikes though.

Total airbox volume is around 6 litres (allowing for the spacing effect of the filter), and is a simple through-flow design. Extra volume is packed in wherever space was available. It doesn't seem to be explicitly intended as a tuned resonator, but I'll have to run the numbers and double-check.

One effect I'm keeping in mind is that the two cylinder intakes are right next to each other. A 360 degree parallel twin would have equal induction timings and would balance air demand out between them; a 90 degree V twin has a 270 - 450 degree induction timing. Air takes time to refill a low pressure zone. One cylinder gets nearly twice the air recovery time of the other.

OddDuck

25th May 2016, 21:11

Spent too much time over the last three weeks weighing up what I'm going to do with the frame. I want this cracking problem sorted out.

The best way to do that is to close the upper triangle (that's why the airbox stuff above), and for that I need to weld a cross tube in. So: what's the tube to be made of? Obviously it should match the frame.

I did a lot of googling - what exactly is a mid-90's supersport frame made of - and the short answer is that nobody outside the factory knows for sure. There's some chatter on the boards but about the most conclusive answer was a brochure which alleged a steel containing chromium and molybdenum (but it didn't specify alloy grade or percentages), and commentary from repairers stating that it hacksawed and bent a lot easier than 4130 chro-mo.

Not exactly conclusive.

Work has some cool gear. One of these items is a scanning electron microscope. This unit has the ability to examine what's actually in a sample, that is, atomic elements present by number or weight percentage. A correctly prepared sample can then be interrogated so the user can find out exactly what alloy it is.

I cut as tiny a sample as possible off the frame, at the end of the short tubes which carry the passenger portion of the seat. This was then sanded to take the paint off, ultrasonically washed in lab ethanol and tested.

The results are a bit dicey. The paint didn't come off cleanly, or it bonded with the paper and then smeared over the surface again. The microscope only interrogates to 1 micron depth. Any contaminants on the surface will skew results. So, bearing that in mind, here's what I got:

C (carbon) 3.0 to 3.9 %
O (oxygen) 1.7 to 1.8 %
Al (aluminium) 0.7 to 0.6 %
Si (silicon) 0.4 to 0 %, possibly from the silicon carbide paper
Mn (manganese) 0.5 to 0.6 %
Fe (iron) 93.7 to 93.2 %

A third scan, of an unsanded groove, showed massive amounts of C, O, Ba, as well as Ti, Ca, S, Mg, and Si and Al - it made a good control check against what must be the paint base layer.

So I think that the frame is a plain, simple, low to medium carbon steel - one of the 1000-series alloys. I can't be sure which one, a better prepared and properly cleaned sample would be needed for that, but any half-decent low carbon steel should do fine for the reinforcement tube.

Voltaire

26th May 2016, 10:21

OddDuck

26th May 2016, 11:58

Thats pretty interesting and in line with my Engineer mate who when modifying his SS frame to make an F1 replica described the tube as the same as what they make school chairs out of.. and the welding is not that great either.
I was playing around with a BMW frame a few years ago and bought some 4130 chro-mo from Palmly (?), and its much harder to cut and bend than mild steel tube.
Your right about the Google search on cracked frames, lots of them out there.

I took a photo of the carb/air cleaner set up on mine.Its got FCR's ( came with them)
I'm not sure of the role of air boxes as none of my old bikes have them, are they sort of a buffer/damper for CV carbs?
321866

OK, that photo shows the remains of the original airbox still in place, the coil mountings and battery box are integral with the airbox mouldings.

Airbox serves as:

Intake noise muffler
Weather shield
Reservoir of air
Resonant cavity (check Helmholtz resonators)

The resonance is useful because (according to my reading) any engine with valve overlap (that'd be almost all of them these days) will have a glitch in the midrange somewhere. The airbox is usually tuned to resonate at that RPM and help smooth it out.

OddDuck

26th May 2016, 20:57

Got the last cylinder head stud!

PB Blaster, a heatshrink gun, and the stud puller cracked the thing. Didn't take all that much heat to do it either - I took the stud to just over 100. As the thermal camera shows it's always going to get hotter than the casing. This was the only stud with traces of threadlock still present.

The stud puller turned out to be a one-shot kind of tool in the end, after a few applications it tends to chew the threads up and then come off the stud suddenly. Not really the best, and I had to finish the job with the nuts tightened against each other. Got there without ripping any threads out though.

OddDuck

26th May 2016, 22:02

Carrying on with airbox / engine breathing musings... having a look at ram air effect in the inlet pipes.

Total length from inlet trumpet (inside the airbox) to inlet valve is 367 mm / 14 inches.

That indicates maximum ram obtained at around 6,800 RPM, for a system with no airbox.

With the airbox things change a bit. From http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Airboxes.html, the usual story is an airbox with a snorkel acting as a resonant system.

Ignoring the inlets to the engine, the air in the snorkel is like a mass free to travel back and forth, and the airbox a spring. There'll be a frequency that they want to bounce at.

The snorkels are a pair of very short, stubby rubber pipes, with a flanged end angled at 45 degrees. Taking the median length: 6 cm
Diameter: 3 cm
Area: 7 cm2 per pipe, total is 14 cm2
Airbox volume: 6000 cc

From the page above:

resonant rpm = 9550 sqrt( 116.5 A / VL ) (V-twin) = 9550 x sqrt ( 116.5 x 14 / ( 6000 x 6) )

= 2000 RPM.

Hmm. That might actually be believable on a streetbike, given that V-twins are notorious for being gutless at low revs. Ducati's design engineers might have tuned the box to give the motor as much help as possible down in the low revs. They were obviously constrained for space to the sides and around the carburetors, but there's a lot of volume up front and low to make up for that.

Not much changed when I ran without the snorkels, or after I cut most of the airbox lid out (as per the FCR41 fitting instructions), but that might be due to the fuel tank now forming the resonator lid, and the flow path between tank and airbox now forming the inlet pipe. Equally it might be that the airbox itself simply isn't that good a resonator. It's a weird shape, there's a filter in the middle of it, and it's made of sound absorbing plastic.

Compare that to Helmholz' original resonator, made to pick out individual notes in a mass of music, which is metal, spherical, and clear volume inside. Quite different.

So for me it's not a stretch to believe that it complies with theory, but in practice falls short of ideal behaviour.

Voltaire

27th May 2016, 08:42

Interesting about the air box, I thought it was just to mount the air cleaner on :eek:
I've been playing around with my 1972 (ish) BMW racebike for a few years and after fitting a new cam at Xmas took it out for a dyno run.
Had a massive dip in power at about 3500 to 4500, pretty much the pull out of corners range.
Ran it at Pukekohe in Feb and had to battle bloody 650/750 Triumphs out of corners :nono:
My German Guru told me to reduce the diameter of the exhaust and fit the merger at a specific length.
I can't say I thought it would make much difference but picked up nearly 20HP in the mid to upper range :banana: to the amazement of both myself and Dyno guy. The $100 spent on exhaust pipe was well spent.
German Guru alluded to the next thing looking at the 60mm trumpets I have on the Dellortos as he said they are too short and open up too much.

Maybe you weld in the bracing on the frame and make up a custom air box that might need to be in a few pieces to fit.
Got me wondering about my FCR's with foam filters only.

Dyno chart for BMW. After finding a local Dyno I am now a convert.

321876

pete376403

27th May 2016, 20:34

Got the last cylinder head stud!

The stud puller turned out to be a one-shot kind of tool in the end, after a few applications it tends to chew the threads up and then come off the stud suddenly. Not really the best, and I had to finish the job with the nuts tightened against each other. Got there without ripping any threads out though.
Did you have the stud extractor only on the threads? Looks like it from the way the threads are flattened out - I'm sure it would have worked better n the unthreaded portion of the stud.

OddDuck

27th May 2016, 21:49

A new airbox design was on the cards as soon as I realised that bracing the frame properly meant modding or completely rebuilding the stock airbox - well spotted :)

That's both a problem and an opportunity. Yeah, it's big work. But, what if (properly designed) I could keep existing performance and then improve it?

The stock Ducati setup is notorious for running out of puff early. Redline is at 9000 RPM, but there's no point whatever in going there. Torque peaks at about 5,500 RPM, power at about 6,500 RPM, and then falls off rapidly. Obviously the not-very-straight cylinder porting and two valves per cylinder has a lot to do with that, so does valve timing, but some of it has to be the intake system.

So: the intake is under the tank, in the middle of the bike's stagnation zone. The stagnation zone is the area behind the fairing, or the engine, or anywhere out of the slipstream. There's a very popular idea that a shielded air intake should be here, because this is the region of highest static pressure... I think that this may be a mistake, for modern bikes. I don't think the theory is wrong. It's just that carburettors used to be pointed backwards, presumably to avoid ingesting stones and so on, and if they were out in the slipstream then they were working against it. Filters came next, then airboxes, but the basic idea was the same: put the intake in the stagnation zone.

The equation itself is:

0.5 x density x velocity squared + density x gravitational acceleration x height change + absolute pressure = a constant.

It's true only along a streamline. You can't jump from one streamline to another and apply it. Change in height in this situation is miniscule, so it simplifies to:

0.5 x density x velocity squared + absolute pressure = a constant.

So, if you have a bike tearing along at a nice legal 100 kmph, which is 27.8 m / s, and it's an ideal world of perfectly still air, what happens is -

Air with no velocity and normal atmospheric pressure is picked up within the confines of the bike's fairing / rider / tank / engine, and accelerated to 100 kmph (on average) before being inducted by the engine. Some will be inducted from the front, some from the sides, some from the rear, so velocities will vary, but the average will match the speed of the bike. These all happen along their individual streamlines, so generally:

Static pressure plus no velocity = a constant = whatever the new static pressure is, plus a velocity term. The new static pressure (the induction pressure) is atmospheric pressure minus the velocity term.

So the pressure in the induction zone actually falls below atmospheric, and this effect gets worse the faster you go. The numbers come out to:

100 km/h: -464 mPa
150 km/h: -1043 mPa
200 km/h: -1,855 mPa

Sounds dire but the 200 km/h result is about 1.8% of normal atmospheric pressure.

Interestingly, if you apply the same theory the other way - to the pressure buildup in ram induction pipes - if no air is drawn from them, the pressure difference goes the other way. You get the same numbers as above, but they're positive.

So, what's the air demand from the engine?

900cc, at

1000 RPM: 7.5 litres per second
3000 RPM: 22.5 litres per second
6000 RPM: 45 litres per second
9000 RPM: 67.5 litres per second

That's assuming 100% volumetric efficiency at all engine speeds, which simply won't happen, but all the same it's a lot of air that the engine is trying to gulp its way through.

I worked out what diameter ram intake would be needed for this kind of air supply, with air scooped up nicely, for 6000 RPM at 200 km/h. It came out to 45.4 mm. That's with no change in air velocity - it goes into that air duct at the exact speed of the bike. If you want a pressure increase, you have to make the duct bigger in diameter.

I then ran the numbers for a resonant airbox again, using the formula in the earlier post. To get around the 270-450 induction timing problem, I assumed a pair of airboxes, one for each cylinder. If the inlet pipe is 45mm diameter (for each, effectively doubling what I've got above), and I manage a 3000cc airbox, the inlet pipe length works out at 3.54 cm.

2 litre airbox, 45 mm inlet diameter, 2000 RPM resonance (for single cylinder engine): 53 mm inlet length.

The Mach number for the above situation is 0.16. With the OEM Ducati snorkels, I worked it out at 0.187. Neither is particularly high, but the lower the better.

An alternative to the pair of singles (probably better) is to re-do the stock airbox, shared, of 6 L capacity, but with large diameter ram air intake tubes sealed to the box front, and resonant pipes within those going through the box front wall. There'll be plenty of room under the tank for extra volume and I'll be able to use the standard filter.

So I think it's actually possible to build this.

OddDuck

27th May 2016, 21:51

Did you have the stud extractor only on the threads? Looks like it from the way the threads are flattened out - I'm sure it would have worked better n the unthreaded portion of the stud.

Absolutely, but the shank of the stud is 8mm - too small for the extractor to grip. It'd only go onto the 10mm threads.

OddDuck

28th May 2016, 20:13

More work today, getting ready for the casings split.

Starter motor is held on by three cap screws, two of them inside the alternator cover, and one of those hidden by the starter relay gear. Rotate the gear to the right place and there's a hole in the gear's web to allow access to the cap screw beneath.

These screws turned out to be a lot looser than they were when I refitted the starter, about six months ago. The washer I'd cut from generic 0.4 mm gasket material was shot, too. It's dark in the photo, with engine oil and ash having made it right through the seal interface. On the rebuild it'll be worth finding one of the green OEM gaskets. It's probably also worth using plain steel spring washers on the cap screws. I don't want these coming loose again, since aside from holding the motor on, they are the electrical connection from starter motor to ground.

I was careful with unscrewing the starter motor lead (using the vice on the spade lug, to keep strain off the motor itself) because a while ago I'd replaced the brushes. While doing that I'd found that the M6 post for the 12V line is supported by a Bakelite insulator. It's not very tough and it doesn't take much to break bits off it. The rubber boot tends to trap water, so the M6 nuts on the lead rust into place, and a lot of torque is needed if you're working with the motor still attached to the engine... it really isn't the best design in the world.

The pickup coils came out next. First thing is getting the leads out of their plastic box headers, so the cable can pass through the gland in the engine wall. This was actually pretty easy - Ducati have a special tool for getting the crimp terminals out of their housings, but one of the smaller flathead jeweller's screwdrivers will work just fine. There's a spring tab locking the crimp terminals in place. Find it, press it, they pull out. After that it's just a matter of undoing the two mounting nuts (keep these, they appear to be a special item) and then removing the lot. Coil resistances tested fine.

Ducati have a special tool for locking the alternator rotor, too. Didn't have it, didn't need it - a strap oil filter wrench (diameter approx 76mm) and an impact wrench took it straight off. There's supposed to be a safety washer there, I just found a flange nut and plain washer. After that the rotor and then the flywheel, complete with one-way bearing and gearwheel to starter motor intermediate shaft, just pulled off.

OddDuck

28th May 2016, 20:23

Photo one is the reverse face of the flywheel, showing the one-way bearing. The gear to the starter motor gear train just pulls out.

The large gear at the top front of the motor casing is the transmission to the timing belts - I had some trouble getting this off. A sharp chisel is what's really needed to fold the safety washer back down. I managed to get there with a screwdriver and a drift, though. The impact wrench wasn't needed to get the nut off. Locking the wheel with a 1/2 drive hex bit and extension bar worked, the torque wasn't very high.

The trouble was that the gear had locked itself to its shaft. The motor is full of ash. Really fine black ash has filled up every narrow space going - it acts a bit like threadlock. It's weak, but if you can't get some leverage on something, it's a problem. In the end I found that I could lever it up with two arms off a gear puller, then fit the rest of the puller for the last bit.

The gear shift lever arm comes off with two cap screws and lock washers. No messing around with hairpin springs needed, once the screws are loose, the whole thing comes out as a complete assembly.

OddDuck

29th May 2016, 18:15

I had a lot of trouble with the Woodruff key to the timing shaft - it just seemed to be stuck in. Pulling with pliers, levering with a screwdriver, nope. Not happening. Even trying to drive it from the upper end with a pin punch didn't do the trick.

Finally I took a Dremel saw blade and notched the thing, so I could get positive purchase on it. Then I spent half an hour with a screwdriver angled at 45 degrees, hitting the shaft of the screwdriver from the side with a hammer. It really was jammed in. Getting it out (finally, 2 hours down the track) it turns out that the key was deliberately notched before being installed. The notch looks good enough to be official but possibly it's a mechanic's socket used as a hollow punch. I've found similar before with the clutch pushrod, this was deliberately pattern centerpunched so that it jam fit into the pressure plate bearing's cup.

The spacer for the clutch hub also turned out to be difficult. The shop manual just says, pull it by hand, it'll be a bit stiff with the O-ring on the splined shaft. Not a chance. There's nothing for grip and you'd have to have fingers like a gin trap to pull this sucker.

Dremel again, get the beam and pillar bearing puller onto it. No problem. I kept the notches on the flanks minimal, just enough for positive purchase for the puller plates.

The crankcase pressure vent valve came off easy. Too easy. It turns out that it's plastic, someone had already been in before and used silicone to try to seal it up, but the plastic has been shrinking under heat and time. The aluminium band joining pipe feed to valve body is loose. No matter what I do, it'll leak oil slowly but steadily. Time for replacement with something decent from the aftermarket.

The last thing was finding that I needed a specific pin wrench to get the crankshaft's drive cog off. I'd said earlier that you don't need the pricey factory tools - not quite correct. Oops. Might get away with improvising when taking apart, but not a chance when reassembling. Torque figures for anything with a safety washer are all 100+ Nm. A deep 30mm socket is also needed, standard 1/2" drive sockets will foul on the end of the crankshaft.

So - nearly at the case split and being able to see what's happening with the gearbox, need tools to go further though.

OddDuck

30th May 2016, 21:28

Had a look online for the wrenches I need last night and it's not good - pricey or stupidly pricey, a couple of weeks away or an unspecified wait before they even send it. If they have either of the two wrenches I need listed at all.

I had a look at my cam pulley tool this morning (bought from the dealer for changing timing belts) and the locking half of it isn't that high-tech. It's a pin wrench, meaning that pins in the wrench face lock into holes in the component. The pins are hardened dowel pins, like these:

http://www.bearingandengineering.co.nz/shop/BEARINGS/General/Dowel+Pin.html

The rest of the tool is black finished mild steel, a handle welded to a hollow diameter. The pins are pressed into drilled holes. The only tricky bit is getting the pin's holes in the right place. So I thought, I know how to drive a milling machine and a lathe, a mate lent me a stick welder... why not?

Pins on order. I took measurements and I'll go looking for steel tomorrow.

In the meantime... pocketing. This is very similar to porting, except that all that's being done is the careful rounding off of any ridges left after manufacture in the valve pockets.

Strips of sandpaper and scrubbing by hand, or more accurately by fingertip. It's tedious, but judging on what was turning up, it was worth doing. The theory is that the pockets (the area of the port immediately behind the valve) are the highest flow part of the engine. The interface between machined surface and original casting is likely to have some shallow ridges on it. Flow will separate at these ridges, reducing effective port area. Rounding the ridges off helps.

The photos were shot with a lamp arranged at the open end of the port, so the light was almost transverse to the surface. Any defect would be highlighted. The ports look pretty rough in the photos, but they've improved in smoothness considerably. Don't have a flow bench for proper measurements, will have to wing it on this one.

OddDuck

2nd June 2016, 21:00

Steel stock metal is going to be a problem. Couldn't find anywhere with a cutting service for the hollow bar I need for the wrench. Might have to go with a sketch on a piece of A4 and a trip to the local engineering outfit.

Alternator wrench: has to be non-magnetic. Aluminium or non-mag stainless only. Similar story here getting it made, draft something up and send a DXF to a water jet cutting shop, then put a collar on the wrench to keep it on the rotor. It's got to handle 200 Nm torque so I've had to do some stress calculations for my design.

Not having much luck with aftermarket valve guides. AV&V aren't being very good about returning communications to the local agent, and he's gone quiet on me too. I want guides and seats and seals, that's it... simple enough request. AV&V say they make them, so what's with this sort of distribution? So I spent way too much time digging and came up with this:

http://www.valvoleivam.info/en/

There's a downloadable PDF catalogue (massive), it's all for cars, tractors etc... I took detailed measurements of the valves used in the bike and I'm crossing my fingers that Ducati simply used a catalogue item, or a design adapted from one. The engine timing belts apparently came off a car, perhaps the valves and guides did too. If I'm really lucky there'll be aftermarket goodies on Rock Auto.

(Update: nope, no luck. No match. It turns out that Ducati valves are unusually short, particularly for the head size. The desmo closing arm doesn't need as much stem length as a spring would. So it's likely that the valves are done on special order and there is no equivalent off-shelf generic part.)

And back into the garage, briefly... Checked the chrome plating thickness on the valve stems. They didn't plate the collet area. Measure one, measure the other, take the difference and halve it and that's the chrome thickness. I've yet to go through them all properly but it looks like they're about halfway through their service life.

The impact wrench took the crankshaft's drive gear nut off without any issues. Trying to pull the gear off didn't go so well, though. I'll have to try heating the gear or using a bigger puller.

pete376403

3rd June 2016, 20:14

OddDuck

3rd June 2016, 20:26

Found out a couple of things about the gear on the crankshaft, via the forums.

First: it's on a taper, not a parallel shaft like everything else. That does make sense, it's transmitting power continually and you really want it locked to the crankshaft. No fretting or catastrophic loosening, please. The flip side is that after twenty years, it isn't coming off without a fight.

Second: it has a tendency to come off with a bang. Anyone who's changed a ball joint on a car will know what I mean. Wear eye and ear protection and don't be in line with it when it goes. A basic precaution is to put the nut back on, turned back by a couple of threads.

I had another try with the bearing puller anyway, tightening up and then tapping upward on the puller legs and down through the shaft to use shock to loosen it, but no joy. It's as tight as the puller can take and still nothing. A three jaw puller was tried, but the crankcase wall is just too close for it to go on. Heat and PB Blaster didn't work either. Like it or not, it's serious hydraulic puller time, maybe with a custom fitting for the end of the crankshaft and the nose of the puller.

For the homemade wrench: dowel pins received, wrench body sketched up, first engineering shop tried (no luck, but I know another which can do it).

The M10 x 1.5 tap was used to clean old loctite / gunk / whatever out of the cylinder stud threads, preparation before reassembly. Initial threading was bare tap and fingertips only, making sure the threads were picked up properly. I didn't have the proper handle but the ring on a 1/4" spanner worked.

OddDuck

3rd June 2016, 20:40

If the valves are shorter than usual then you should be able to find something longer and get them shortened. You can make most things fit one way or another. (I put Chev 350 valves into a jawa speedway engine. Reamed out the guide to suit, reduced the diameter at the top for the jawa collets, worked well)

Now that's an interesting idea. Thanks for that, sorry if I've given the wrong message - the valves themselves are actually still workable. I was hoping to find a match for the valves so that I'd find a match for the guides, and possibly for the seats as well. I'd have gone looking for guides and seats directly but can't get a decent measurement of diameter, length etc while they're still in the head.

Oversizing valve stem diameter and reaming guides would work, but at that point (for me) it's easier to just cough up and get new guides.

OddDuck

3rd June 2016, 21:37

Oops. Ducati make a specific tool for the primary gear pull and there are aftermarket copies too:

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Complete-partlist/Unsorted/DUC-Abzieher-Primaertrieb::213598.html#prettyPhoto

http://www.hdesausa.com/PRIMER-GEAR-PULLER_p_30.html

http://www.moto1.nz/dragon-stone-primary-drive-gear-puller-tool-primary-gear-puller-ducati

http://www.gbmotorcycleproducts.com/ducati-primary-gear-puller--pt-887132092-170-p.asp

A 5 or 10 ton hydraulic gear puller is the alternative but the difficulty is keeping it straight, as I was finding with the normal puller.

BMWST?

4th June 2016, 21:31

i think melbar engineering in wingate has a flash machine or two

pete376403

5th June 2016, 19:58

Now that's an interesting idea. Thanks for that, sorry if I've given the wrong message - the valves themselves are actually still workable. I was hoping to find a match for the valves so that I'd find a match for the guides, and possibly for the seats as well. I'd have gone looking for guides and seats directly but can't get a decent measurement of diameter, length etc while they're still in the head.

Oversizing valve stem diameter and reaming guides would work, but at that point (for me) it's easier to just cough up and get new guides.

Worn guides can be internally knurled and then reamed back to size so you stay with the standard valve stem diameter. It COULD increase oil flow down the guide as there is now a spiral track (knurling is a bit like a screw thread but it doesn't cut metal out) but if the guide seals are good it should be right.

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 20:44

Got it.

Hydraulic puller borrowed from work, quite a bit of re-jigging the legs and then winding it up, got the sucker off. The legs flexed a lot more than I expected, no wonder these things are built so massively. It wouldn't fit perfectly on-center since the puller feet were wide enough to foul on the crankcase wall, but in the end it didn't matter.

I used a bungee cord and string to catch the puller as it came off - I'd read a few stories about the puller plus transmission gear coming off at high speed. It did pop off with a smell of burning oil, but it wasn't as dramatic as I'd expected. Possibly the PB Blaster soaking a few nights earlier helped. Towel's on the concrete floor as a cushion for if or when things fall, luckily the gear stayed with the puller this time.

I got the screws holding the crankcases together out, then replaced two of them (lightly) for the transfer of the engine to the bench. Then it was split the cases, which wasn't hard. Some tapping with a rubber mallet, alternate crankshaft and then driven shaft, RH side of engine, opened it up.

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 20:48

Ocean1

7th June 2016, 20:57

A quick comment about the mechanical two and three leg pullers around... make sure the side plates are riding on bolt shoulder, not bolt threads. I'd tried winding my two leg puller up and watched it start to banana a couple of times, then I realised that the original bolts are a bit too short.

Changing bolts for longer ones, with spacers, kept it straight. Not enough force though.

Good work, nothing like hydraulics for the ultimate "do as you're fucking told".

Pays to keep a very close eye on proceedings though, it's hard to have a good feel for what you're doing with that much horsepower.

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 21:12

A while ago I'd posted about excess heat transfer from the cylinder heads to the inlet stub pipes. Recap: Heating the fuel and air charge before it's even drawn into the engine is generally bad. Inefficient, noisy, robs power, leads to super hot combustion and the engine running stinking hot. You need enough heat to keep the petrol vaporised, but no more.

Anyway, I'd run some numbers, worked out (in theory) that about 70% of the heat was conducted through the mounting studs. The paper washer was only about 30% of the heat conduction, despite being only 0.4mm thick. So it's more important to insulate the studs than it is to install some kind of phenolic spacer plate.

Had some time today to get onto a lathe and make the insulating washers. These were turned down from a piece of Tufnol-copy fabric and phenolic resin bar, sourced from LEP Plastics (they'll do online stock material purchases).

The inlet stub pipes were a little awkward to drill out from 8.5 mm to 10 mm, since the pipe shadows the flange. In the end I rotated the table for a drill press upside down, checked levelling, and then held the pipe flange up against that surface and drilled that way. A bit rough but it worked. I haven't checked fit to cylinder head yet, probably I'll have to do some re-drilling or filing to make it fit.

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 21:24

And it was worth pulling the engine to bits after all. Aside from anything else, the crankshaft galley plug was floating. It turned out to be completely loose, not even fingertight. It's shiny because it's been skimming against the stationary face of the crankshaft bearing.

A closer look at the tapers for the transmission gear showed why it was so damn tight. The interface between the two surfaces of the taper is packed with ash. Quite a bit wiped off with a rag, but there's still a bit bonded on. Anyone know if 2000-grit paper isn't a good idea?

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 21:32

Worn guides can be internally knurled and then reamed back to size so you stay with the standard valve stem diameter. It COULD increase oil flow down the guide as there is now a spiral track (knurling is a bit like a screw thread but it doesn't cut metal out) but if the guide seals are good it should be right.

Been doing a bit of reading, not sure about this. The spiral groove could flow way too much oil if the guide seal's not very good, and I'm now certain that the all-rubber Ducati OEM seals are simply crap. The taper onto the valve stem is probably OK but the body of the seal relies on rubber tension over the valve guide boss. I think it flexes under valve motion, drawing oil up like a pump. I've had problems with oil-fouled spark plugs since I bought the bike and I want this issue sorted out.

BMWST?

7th June 2016, 21:58

OddDuck

7th June 2016, 22:30

this is bloody interesting.
I like the knowing of how things are put together,not really interesrted in doing the actual doing though!
The ash you talk about.Is it just the residue from very hot oil,or is it actually some residue from combustion or the "smoke" from hot oil inside the engine.Presumably the "smoke" is burnt in the engine via the crankcase ventilation systen which is plumbed into the airbox?

Ash: combustion residue, mostly. Burnt and carbonised oil is a small contributor, hopefully, but most of it is fallout from combustion of petrol and air. I think it gets into the crankcase primarily as blow-by of hot gases making it past the piston rings. There's particulate drop-out, condensation etc.

Smoking oil and the main part of the blowby gases are vented to the airbox, for cleanup via combustion. I reckon the crankcase vent valve is one of those unsung genius bits of technology. So simple and it's a win for everyone. Cleans up smog, better economy, motor has a chance of being oiltight, and it helps power too.

Voltaire

8th June 2016, 08:04

OddDuck

8th June 2016, 08:19

I've had my last two BMW racebike engines guides fitted with K liners. They drill out the guide and fit a sleeve which then has a tool pulled thru it to force it onto the guide. Advantage is does not disturb the guide.:niceone:

Who did the work, and how much did it cost?

Just having a look at the K Line page now. I'd prefer to have a go at it myself but the pricing on the tool kits needed is a bit out of my reach - $566 US - and it's out of stock at the moment anyway.

Voltaire

8th June 2016, 11:44

A friend of mine who used to do engine work had a set.
He let me have a go and its pretty idiot proof.
Did a Google and this place near you came up/
http://www.trademe.co.nz/services/trades/automotive/auction-816372118.htm

Process is:
Drill out the guide with a hand held electric drill- the tool is self aligning.
fit the sleeve.
Hammer a broach tool thru to press it into the guide
ream
322144
322145

He did a 3 angle valve job too and bike puts out a healthy 84 BHP

OddDuck

8th June 2016, 22:12

Thanks. I've used Kerry Lindsay before for a recondition on a car cylinder head, he's good... will have to get the rocker arms and camshafts out of the heads before going to see him though. It's not as convenient as the heads in your photos, since they seem to cleanly split rocker mechanism and valves.

In the meantime I'm still toying with the idea of trying to do this myself - keen to learn and there's nothing to get focused like getting hands-on.

Progress: got the swingarm and front subframe back from the powdercoaters today. Haven't unwrapped yet.

Got further into the now-split engine and had the first look at bearings. Most seem OK in terms of play but the crankshaft mains are definitely shot - there's (by eye) about 0.5mm free play on the LH bearing if I try to push-pull the inner roller axially at any point on the circumference. So it's probably appropriate to change the lot.

The plug screw for the mesh screen turned out to be made from straight aluminium, screwed into aluminium. It's a stripped thread waiting to happen. Don't mess with this if you don't have to, I want to repaint the casings so I wanted it out... if you're unscrewing this and it gets stiff, screw it back in. Work it back and forth until it smooths up. Otherwise if the threads stick, that's it, it'll ruin either the screw or tear the thread in the casing itself up.

I found bits of the main gasket sitting in the sump, too. They were all ovalled or kidney-bean shaped - looks like they've been tumbling in the oil and getting rounded off. Quite a bit of this gasket sits in a way from the casing wall, it's not hard to see how it gets brittle and breaks off inside the engine.

I had the first shot at cleaning gasket surfaces up. I tried with a knife until I found a rolled edge, then it was block and 400-grit paper with CRC as a cutting fluid (very carefully).

The block was made earlier from a piece of scrap aluminium plate, levelled against increasing grades of wet'n'dry on a proper surface table. The block is nimble, easy to work with, but it really is for localised cleanup, not any serious attempt to plane a flat onto something this big.

OddDuck

8th June 2016, 22:23

Gears next. I had the inevitable loose shim turn up - no idea where it came from of course.

Ducati assemble the crankshaft with shims on each end against end float. They use a lot more on the shift drum and at least one of the gear shafts, too. Just to make life more fun, the shims are stock sizes like 1.0 mm, 0.6mm, etc. So if they want an intermediate size, they stack up several shims, in one place. Mislay even one and you have problems.

That said, it might be a blessing in disguise. One of the reasons that I got this far was that the bike's been shocking for refusing to shift properly into 5th (or was it 6th?) Anyway: never does it first time. I have to hammer the shift peg a couple of times, and even then, sometimes it'll pop out again. Did it coming out of a fast corner on the Rimutaka Hill once, did it a few times on my one day at Manfield as well. Not good.

So I'm wondering if someone hasn't mis-assembled it with a shim in the wrong damn place. Not sure yet how I'll check it, I'll have to understand how the gear system is assembled first.

OddDuck

9th June 2016, 22:36

Tonight: preparing crankcase halves for bearing removal. I started by pulling the locating dowels.

I did some reading and it turns out that there are at least three methods, all of which keep the outer surface in good nick.

1) use an E-Z Out
2) use a taper (first) tap
3) drill through and fit a suitable pin, turn and pull with that.

I gave the E-Z Out a go and it worked a charm. Sutton No. 5 fits nicely for OD 10 and 14 mm Ducati dowels. Getting the dowel off after was done with careful use of a pair of vice grips. Any ridges left in the dowel outer surface (the first one was a bit stiff to unscrew) sanded out.

This meant I could now block and paper the gasket surfaces that had dowels in the way yesterday. A closer look and I'm thinking the full surface table treatment might be justified. There's been some nasty dents and scratches over the years.

Taking the bearings out is done after heating the entire case half to 100 C, according to the Ducati factory manual. I'll have to heat in the oven upstairs, wrap and box the half to keep it warm, then carry it down to the garage for the bearing pull work. Old oil stinks, I eat food out of that oven, so I've had a go at washing the casings by using turps and a paintbrush. Hasn't been 100% successful with the baked-on golden stuff but it did get a lot of loose grit off.

The bench surface is vinyl flooring, I'll need a decent chunk of chipboard or something similar as a surface to rest the casing half on. The vinyl is normally fantastic to work off, it's tough, cheap, wipes down with meths, and if it's getting carved up then I just sand it down again with 180-grit and more meths to get a new surface. I don't think it'll handle a hot casing though.

The cleanup got dirt out of the way and showed damage to one of the swingarm bearings - not sure what's happened here, will have to strip it and see.

OddDuck

11th June 2016, 21:40

Checking the conrod main bearings - trying to get the end caps unscrewed. With the crankshaft assembly on the bench, I thought I'd be clever and avoid any strain on the bearings, or the crankshaft itself, by clamping the conrod shaft in the bench vise and undoing the cap bolts against that.

I then watched the conrod twist a whole lot easier than I expected, the end quite happily rotated by 2 degrees or more. I think I stayed in the elastic zone and the metal simply sprung back, I pray that the conrod isn't bent or twisted, but in the home garage there's no way to be sure apart from replacing it. DO NOT UNDO THE BOLTS THIS WAY.

Oops.

OddDuck

11th June 2016, 22:01

Doing it the usual way - use the crankshaft as the counter-torque element and just go for it. Rattlegun on the bench worked.

Something that I learned just a few days ago: impact wrenches really should be driving impact sockets. Using the bright chrome vanadium normal sockets is taking a risk, especially 3/8"s as I'm doing here. Normal sockets apparently can shatter. Impact sockets (usually black-finished) are thicker walled, softer, and tougher, in order to take shock loading. I've been getting away with it so far, but I'll have to go shopping, the sooner the better.

Split conrod bearings checked. It was pretty obvious that they were due for replacement but I thought I'd get the micrometer and transfer gauge onto them anyway. The caps were refitted and torqued to specification for the measurement. As suspected, they're outside specification. Clearance is supposed to be around 24 to 56 micron, these are running between 60 and 70. The photo of the conrod in the vise, with breaker bar, is after I'd done everything and decided to leave end caps loose for bearing shell replacement. For measurement and subsequent loosening the vise was closed across the conrod big end, not the web.

I checked taper and ovality on the main journals as well. The limit for this is 10 micron, for either requirement. In practice that's measured by taking a number of diameters, at various positions front to back, and angles of rotation, making sure that they're all inside that 10 micron spread.

It was OK on one side, it wasn't on the other. That's the side with the oil galley plug which came loose, and also the side with the heavily worn main bearing. The spread was around 14 to 20 microns. I'll probably just run with it.

My workshop manual says that the two main journals also need to be checked for misalignment, by putting the crankshaft between centers and using a pair of dial gauges simultaneously. I can do this with borrowed gear at work (there's a lathe which can be set up with centers), but there's no chance here.

OddDuck

11th June 2016, 22:28

Checking the gearshift mechanism, starting with the drum.

The drum slots are supposed to be between 8.00 to 8.09 mm wide, with an 8.19 mm wear limit. Initially I tried with a vernier, but switched to transfer gauge and micrometer. Nothing came within normal service, most of it is only just above the wear limit - 8.165, 8.180, that kind of thing. It actually didn't look that bad so the numbers were a surprise.

The shift fork pins, despite visible wear, came in OK and well above their wear limits. I was careful to keep the micrometer inside the worn area. Clearances of shift fork pins in the drum slots (measured with a feeler gauge) were a little high but within tolerable limits.

There's a fairly generous end float allowed on the shift drum of 0.200 mm. If I read this right, I'll have to measure that inside the cases, with a new gasket fitted or allowing for the paper thickness of the old one.

There are some checks for gear fork width and slot width but I settled for feeler gauge tests. Everything came in fine. All three tested at 0.203 mm, with an allowable limit of 0.400 mm.

So the selection mechanism was probably not the issue. I had a play with the two shaft assemblies and found that all the roller bearings inside the gears seem to be loose. There's a lot of end play as well, haven't measured it yet, but there's way too much for it to be normal.

That got me looking. I noticed a massive amount of end play on the spacer shims at the end of a shaft assembly, then I looked closer. The end cap has been forced open, with a clearance of around 0.63 mm between end shims and the gear. If it was like this inside the engine cases, with allowable end float on these two shaft assemblies specified at 0.10 mm, this might explain the problem.

OddDuck

12th June 2016, 19:34

Carrying on with the gears, I spent a few hours working out how to take the chain sprocket shaft assembly apart and methodically measuring and documenting what went where.

The bearing cup mentioned previously turned out to be a very light interference fit, removable almost with bare hands. The bearing puller was total overkill, as I found when I could pull it by twirling the leadscrew between thumb and forefinger.

The snap rings proved tricky. They kept on slipping off the plier jaws. In the end I found that forcing them onto the snap ring pliers from the back of the ring worked. The rest of the assembly was simple enough to take to bits.

Bearing surfaces were checked visually and measured, with micrometer and transfer gauge. Everything came in fine.

I had it almost completely apart before it ocurred to me to check availability of shims, and guess what... it's still possible to get the obvious sizes, but the intermediates aren't made any more. So re-shimming the individual gears on the shaft probably isn't going to happen. There's a lot of free play, but little wear evident - the original planing marks are still visible on each shim face. Ducati's use of straight cut gearing means zero axial force anyway. Shifting aside, end shimming isn't critical in the way it would be with helically-cut gearing.

The bearing cup took very little force to push back on, so it looks like yesterday's theory about this causing massive shim errors for the rest of the assembly is wrong.

OddDuck

12th June 2016, 19:52

Next step: abandon hyper-detailed work and just reassemble the cases with the shift mechanism, then have a play.

The main case gasket came in with a thickness of 0.30 mm. Assembling without means zero or -0.10 mm play clearance for the shift drum and lightly clamped clutch and output gear shafts, but things still turned when I tried them.

So I had a play with the shifting mechanism while looking at the assembly through the horizontal cylinder opening. Everything seemed fine, but then I started getting the trouble shifting again - from 4th to 5th or 5th to 6th, either up or down. Nothing seemed wrong inside so I had a look at the shift claw and the shift drum's end pegs.

The shift claw is hitting the crankcase wall (polished metal visible in the last photo) and also failing to turn the shift drum the full 60 degrees needed to make a clean gear shift. It's nearly doing it, sometimes it does make it without problems, but most of the time it's getting nearly there and then stopping.

I pulled the claw mechanism and had a close look. The hook actually seems mostly OK. There's a planed surface, but the original guillotine marks are still visible. The elbow and shoulder bushings are very loose, and the stop peg is hitting part of the spring plate that it shouldn't be, losing a couple of degrees of motion either up or down.

Ocean1

12th June 2016, 20:06

I admire your attention to detail, I'd be in too much of a hurry to get the bloody thing back together again and miss things.

pete376403

13th June 2016, 20:56

OddDuck

13th June 2016, 22:00

Cleaning the cases in the dishwasher brings them up nice.
Also, snap rings - the end faces are not parallel (not the ones I'm used to, anyway) if they are put on backwards and up against something, like a gear, the pliers will always slip off. the pointy bit should face outwards, eg \ / if this is the ends of the snap ring, the wide gap should abut the gear

Yeah, had a lot of trouble with this. The Ducati ones are square-cut, so as soon as you open them up, they want to pop off the pliers. The fix is to push them onto a textured jaw, past the jaw edge, so that the inside edge of the ring's cut face will bite in and engage.

Thanks Ocean1!

Tonight's short effort (tired from the stint on the weekend) was all about the shift drum fork, the weird hook-mouthed thing that looks a bit like a shark. I spent a while having a play, again. Trying to tidy the shift fork mechanism up didn't resolve the false neutrals.

I think my shifting issues are half and half between technique and wear. The engagement dogs for 5th and 6th are on a slower shaft than 1,2,3 and 4. They take longer to line up and then engage, so riding technique has to be to hold the shifter in for around double the time I'd use for the lower gears. Can't say I was doing that...

Also I think the shift drum fork may have been originally a bit on the wide side, and given some wear it might now be marginal. The problem is that I can't find a specification for end-to-end length in the fork's hook groove anywhere. The Stein Dinse order finally went through tonight, with a new shift drum fork added in. I'll be able to measure a new one against the old and see if there's a significant difference.

Final note for the night concerns Ducati's shift drum plunger stop, the ball bearing on a spring which provides the detents for the shift drum. I think the ball is having trouble rotating on the open end of the spring, there seems to be a lot of friction getting the drum to start moving. It's a pretty basic system and a proper roller plunger could improve things.

An idea to have a play with: a plunger for the spring, brass so it doesn't bind on the aluminium case, and spherically cupped to provide a decent oil lubricated bearing pad for the ball bearing. Shouldn't take long to lathe something up and give it a try.

OddDuck

15th June 2016, 18:47

Swingarm bearings.

Ducati use a pair of shell roller bearings, plus an outboard and inboard grease seal, on each half of the crankcase. The seal+bearing+bearing+seal assembly is back-stopped by a snap ring, completely inaccessible if the motor is assembled. This was presumably never intended to come apart.

Problem: sometimes people get frustrated with a swingarm axle that won't go back in, so they drive it in with a mallet. The usual story with a Japanese bike is that the swingarm is on a bushing, both axle and bushing have entry chamfers, a bit of bodging is usually needed anyway and no harm is done. Here it's on thin-shelled bearings. Any load or impact on the end of the bearing shell distorts that shell, locking the inner race. The rollers then start to cut their way into the axle. That's exactly what's happened here, as shown by the damage to the seal cage, the fact that the first roller won't turn, and that my swingarm axle has a shallow cut in the plating.

The seals, aside from anything else, are twenty-plus years old. The outer seal on the other bearing is missing chunks of rubber. It's pretty clear that the seals at least have to be replaced, and while I'm in there it'd be silly to not change the bearings. So: how?

The usual story is that people take an old swingarm axle and simply smash the whole lot up, deliberately pushing the snap ring out of its groove and into the cavity between the crankcase halves. It's gasketed and sealed, so none of this gets inside the engine. Then they smash bearings and seals to bits against the inside of the crankcase and use a mechanic's magnetic retrieval tool to pull the bits out. It's pretty rough but it gets the job done.

With the casings split, I have access from what was the inside. Might try lathing up a specific drift out of some bar stock and seeing how that goes. I managed to get the outer seals off quickly enough by using two flat-bladed screwdrivers, one as a fulcrum so that I wasn't pulling on one seal face but pushing on the other. The gasket surfaces on the casing halves have been masked in preparation for a go at the main bearings, later.

OddDuck

17th June 2016, 18:23

Carrying on with the swingarm bearings, this time from the inside.

I had a go at getting the snap rings out and ending up drilling / Dremelling a channel behind them. They have an angled end so in theory they're liftable, but in practice forget it. Cut in behind the groove, get a screwdriver or two in to lever out, an Allen key to lift, and it's possible to work them out without twisting or bending them.

The internal seal was next. I'd originally tried leaving the snap rings in place and driving seal plus both bearings out with a socket and extension bar. Nope, forget it. All that happens is that the thin metal of the seal body collapses and then barrels, locking itself in tight. I had to go deeper on the grove and then cut through the seal's shell in order to break it, bend it, and finally yank it out. The other seal came out by using a washer on a length of studding, pushing it past the rubber lip into engagement on the seal's shell, and levering upwards. The long-nosed pliers are there to force the lower washer into place and then keep it there. A couple of positions pulled on the perimeter and it came away. The knife was used as a working surface to keep from denting the gasket faces of the crankcase half.

I didn't need a custom drift. A standard M6 mudguard washer turned out to fit over the swingarm Torrington bearing shells nearly perfectly, a socket set extension bar made for a nice driver punch.

OddDuck

17th June 2016, 18:43

Crankcase and swingarm bearings - the bakeoff.

Ducati's workshop manual specifies heating the half-cases to 100 C before driving old bearings out. I did a few dry runs with the slide puller I'd bought for the job, being sure of setups, then got to it.

First thing: a standard domestic oven has crappy temperature control, use a half-decent kitchen thermometer to check what's going on. It should be a thermistor instead of a bimetallic (the thermistors are usually good to at least 0.5 C) and keep an eye on it, don't just measure once. Be gentle with the thermometer stem in the oven door, it doesn't take much to crush or break these things.

Second thing: domestic ovens overshoot quite badly. Mine went up to about 140 C on the 100 C setting. Be sure before putting cases in. If that alloy has been through some kind of tempering process then you do not want to overheat it.

In the end it was actually pretty straightforward. There were a few trips between oven and bench. I had the cases in a couple of cheapo Briscoes $5 towels to keep the warmth in for as long as possible and wore welder's gauntlets ($15, why not) for handling. A couple of bits of two-by-four, checked for nails, served as the working brace surface.

The slide puller was used working upwards, I just put a gauntleted hand onto the casing to keep it from leaping all over the bench. The puller was pricey but made the job an absolute doddle, also kept bearings very nicely square in their bores during removal. Main bearings got punched out by using the puller as a guided drop hammer - I didn't try to fit the collet to the bearing (too small) but used it as a base on the bench for keeping the guide vertical, then hammered down. It didn't take much effort in the end, it really was just a couple of taps and they were out.

I could use a socket and hammer for one of the cylindrical roller bearings, as per standard mechanic's practice. I got stuck for what to do on the other pair, there's no obvious way to pull them, and they're in blind webs so there's no access to the back.

The pair of bearings on the clutch cogwheel came out easily with the slide hammer, too - there's not really any other way to pull them as far as I can see. There's a shim and a circlip in the center. Pull one bearing, flip the wheel, and pull the other so that it takes the oil seal with it.

OddDuck

17th June 2016, 18:53

Here's the slide puller being used as a drop hammer on the main bearings. It turned out that the hammer fit nicely into the main bearing's inner race, I didn't need an adaptor.

pete376403

17th June 2016, 22:58

100 degrees C is boiling water, so a water bath with an immersion heater would be a way of getting the temperature correct (more correct than your domestic oven, anyway)

OddDuck

18th June 2016, 08:37

100 degrees C is boiling water, so a water bath with an immersion heater would be a way of getting the temperature correct (more correct than your domestic oven, anyway)

True - don't have one though. Also don't have space to put one, I'm doing everything in a single car garage, with the car going back in every night. Power is via an extension cord from the flat. It's pretty basic.

One of the reasons I'm trying to document all the tips and tricks (and traps) is to help others, there's quite a few of us out there in a similar situation and I want to give something back. This isn't a go at you, it's just that most of us out there have access to an oven, but getting an immersion bath sorted out would just be too much.

pete376403

18th June 2016, 10:40

No, not at all, loving the thread. I have a semi derelict one car garage which is jammed up with stuff that's not worth keeping, but too good to throw away, so I know about the difficulties of work space and so on.
I bought up the water bath/heater idea cos many years back I had to replace valve guides on a Jag 6 and made a water bath out of a 45gal drum cut lengthwise, and a water heater element. Took a while to get everything up to temp but worked in the end.

BMWST?

18th June 2016, 11:05

olduck i have 2 peices of LVL offcuts at work 300x400x45mm. prolly overkill for a hard flat worksurface on your bench but it will be biffed anyway soon.

OddDuck

19th June 2016, 09:13

olduck i have 2 peices of LVL offcuts at work 300x400x45mm. prolly overkill for a hard flat worksurface on your bench but it will be biffed anyway soon.

Thanks but it turned out that loose bits of 2x4 worked just fine - the heating loosened everything up nicely. I still have M6 studs (for mounting the pickup coils) standing out in one case and I have to work around those for bearing insertion anyway, the 2x4's are mobile enough that it isn't a problem.

OddDuck

19th June 2016, 20:54

Waiting on bearings, shops aren't open to go look at bearing and seal drivers (turns out that you can buy them), so I've been playing with the airbox mod idea again. Well, the first bit, anyway: is it possible to move the battery?

Stock battery: no. It's a brick of a thing and the OEM location is about the only option that makes sense. Is there an aftermarket battery, and can it be moved?

After checking for matching / exceeding voltage, AHr rating, CCA, it turns out that Shorei make something. Model LFX 18 A1-BS12 MC, size 148 x 105 x 56 mm, can be placed in any orientation including upside down. It is roughly half the volume of the stock battery. Pricey but supposed to last long enough that it's actually cheaper in the long run. Well regarded brand too.

The first idea I had was to put a tray under the seat, in the current location of the crankcase valve's resonance boxes. These could be rebuilt in the new airbox. I modelled the Shorei up with cardboard, then tried a few variations on various designs for the tray.

It turned out that it's too constrained. The seat has a couple of forks at the front which latch into the frame. These set a maximum width, leaving very little room for vibration absorbing foam. The shock also runs too close to the front bottom corner of the tray's box. There's also a chance that the box could foul the hugger, if the rear shock takes a big hit and comes near to bottoming out. Finally, there was a flow to the design lines as the bike was, even on the underside - this box spoils it. No good, never mind, what about the rear light's mounting box?

First I tried up front and wide. No good, cable access to the rear was blocked, and the seat would have hit the battery tray - there wasn't enough vertical clearance. Then I tried to the rear, running lengthwise and flat. Success, there's room for wiring to the rear loom and the battery itself, there's space spare at the front, and I can put vibration isolators on the box corners and still have vertical clearance.

Voltaire

19th June 2016, 21:16

OddDuck

19th June 2016, 21:50

pete376403

19th June 2016, 21:59

You could put out a call to Ed about Shorai batteries but then the thread will be ruined as a useful resource.

Edbear

19th June 2016, 22:00

I've run a Shorai on my BMW racebike for about 2 years, total loss and I run it a day on a charge. I think you would need to swap out the regulator as the lithium batteries need a higher charge rate compared to the 'sloshers'
Weight is about 1 kg.
Liam http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/ also does batteries too and my racing mate has these on his BMW.
The welded cracks on your frame seems to have a knock on effect with modifications ;)
Great thread :2thumbsup ( so far plonker free)

Good to hear it's been reliable for you. The key to longevity is to keep them above 12.8v which leaves 20% in reserve.

Waiting on bearings, shops aren't open to go look at bearing and seal drivers (turns out that you can buy them), so I've been playing with the airbox mod idea again. Well, the first bit, anyway: is it possible to move the battery?

Stock battery: no. It's a brick of a thing and the OEM location is about the only option that makes sense. Is there an aftermarket battery, and can it be moved?

After checking for matching / exceeding voltage, AHr rating, CCA, it turns out that Shorei make something. Model LFX 18 A1-BS12 MC, size 148 x 105 x 56 mm, can be placed in any orientation including upside down. It is roughly half the volume of the stock battery. Pricey but supposed to last long enough that it's actually cheaper in the long run. Well regarded brand too.

The first idea I had was to put a tray under the seat, in the current location of the crankcase valve's resonance boxes. These could be rebuilt in the new airbox. I modelled the Shorei up with cardboard, then tried a few variations on various designs for the tray.

It turned out that it's too constrained. The seat has a couple of forks at the front which latch into the frame. These set a maximum width, leaving very little room for vibration absorbing foam. The shock also runs too close to the front bottom corner of the tray's box. There's also a chance that the box could foul the hugger, if the rear shock takes a big hit and comes near to bottoming out. Finally, there was a flow to the design lines as the bike was, even on the underside - this box spoils it. No good, never mind, what about the rear light's mounting box?

First I tried up front and wide. No good, cable access to the rear was blocked, and the seat would have hit the battery tray - there wasn't enough vertical clearance. Then I tried to the rear, running lengthwise and flat. Success, there's room for wiring to the rear loom and the battery itself, there's space spare at the front, and I can put vibration isolators on the box corners and still have vertical clearance.

Check out our website www.shorai.co.nz for tech and tips too. The US site is www.shoraipower.com

The bigger twins need at least the 18's and one battery gaining popularity is the 19A4 which is, off the top of my head, 148 x 88 x 89. I can confirm that though.

Your build is certainly interesting!

Edbear

19th June 2016, 22:06

You could put out a call to Ed about Shorai batteries but then the thread will be ruined as a useful resource.

I can always be reached through the website. Hopefully the members have enough respect for the OP to keep it nice.

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 15:28

I'll have to completely mock up the airbox, intake snorkels, ram snorkels, filter mounts, revised coil and CDI mounting, electronics placement etc before I make the go call on buying the battery - it'll be a while yet. With this kind of work, all it takes is one clash that can't be solved, like a throttle cable fouling on something, and that's it. Design won't work, start again. So I want to be sure.

In the meantime, quick update on the engine bearings, here's the SKF list:

16005 x 1
6005 x 1
6004-2RSC3 x 1
6305 x 2
2NUC3E0 x 2 (haven't pulled these yet, lettering difficult to read, OD 40, ID 22, thk 12, single row cylindrical roller bearing)
35x47x7TC x 1 (seal)
25x52x7TC x 1 (seal)
(3 x camshaft seals needed, will update when I know)

Main Bearings
7207 BEP x 1
7307 BEP x 1

Swingarm Bearings
HK2016 x 4
4 x seals, Ducati 93041271A

The swingarm pivot seals turned out to be specialty items and difficult to get aftermarket in NZ, due to the requirement that they handle engine case heat. Most equivalent seals are nitrile coated and they break down above 85 C. The proper metal-shelled OEM seals turned out to be $5 otc ea and in stock at the dealer, just walk up and buy them. Now this is what I like to see.

Tooling needed is the slide puller and then a bearing driver set, plus a half-decent hammer.

A quick note from today: if you're buying something in a plastic case set, insist on opening it up at the counter and seeing what's inside. I did because I wanted to see what the driver plates were made from (CNC-turned aluminium), but then found that the factory had forgotten to include the driver. Could've caused some problems.

Ocean1

21st June 2016, 17:05

2NUC3E0 x 2 (haven't pulled these yet, lettering difficult to read, OD 40, ID 22, thk 12, single row cylindrical roller bearing)

My SKF equivalents book from about that era don't recognize that.

Maybe 2nuO3EC? In which case it may be the number for just the outer...

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 17:29

My SKF equivalents book from about that era don't recognize that.

Maybe 2nuO3EC? In which case it may be the number for just the outer...

The code did have nu in lowercase, and there's no inner race. The rollers run directly on the gear shaft. The lettering is a bit patchy, it could be 2nuO3EC. Pic to follow, thanks for looking for me.

eldog

21st June 2016, 19:38

My SKF equivalents book from about that era don't recognize that.

Maybe 2nuO3EC? In which case it may be the number for just the outer...

Looks like you might be right, but be careful.

The old FAG book I have here (:devil2:) shows the internal diameter WITHOUT an inner race as 22.9
where as the
SKF is 22.1

SKF no: NU 203 ECP - check what cage material it is.
EC = Optimised internal design incorporating more and/or larger rollers and with modified roller/end flange contact (maybe why the inner race od is different between the old FAG book and the newer SKF)
P= Injection moulded cage of glass fibre reinforced polyamide 6,6 roller centered

std is 17 id x 40 od x 12 thk

carry on the good work :niceone:

Ocean1

21st June 2016, 19:56

The old FAG book I have here (:devil2:)

Don't make me break out my extremely thick Timkin book...

eldog

21st June 2016, 20:27

Don't make me break out my extremely thick Timkin book...
Just spent well over 60 grand on 4 Timken bearings.:eek:
worth it though.

yeah, they didn't fit the mbike.....

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 21:03

And here's that photo, of something much smaller...

eldog

21st June 2016, 21:27

Almost C3 clearance? Can't make it out from the image.

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 21:42

While I was at the dealer's I thought I'd have a look at how ram air snorkels are set up on modern bikes.

I had already been around the shops with an idea of finding and buying some flexible air ducting hose - years ago I'd seen a couple of older Japanese sportbikes which used the stuff. The bikes were set up with the ducting running between intake at headlamp fairing and airbox inside fuel tank, bridging above the clip-ons. It was completely exposed. I'd had the idea that maybe I could sneak some of this stuff between fork legs and headstock, or to the side or something... It was going to be tricky finding flange adaptors. Anyway, a look at some current bikes knocked this idea on the head.

Ducting hose is nowhere to be seen. It's all dedicated, moulded components, which may or may not be integral parts of the frame. A Triumph Speed Triple had the ram intake coupled straight in through the very large headstock. Everything else seemed to use a pair of curved runners starting beside or below the headlights, then running outside the swing arc of the triple clamps into the flanks of the airbox. It's become very popular, virtually everything for fast street and track seems to use it. Even the cheaper bikes like the 300's have fake ram intakes moulded into the nose fairings, if you look close enough.

So I got the bike frame, tank, airbox, and front subframe onto the table and had a look. My first idea, of two parallel channels running inside the gap between fork legs, triple clamp plates and headstock, then feeding in through various frame triangles, is just too tight to work. There's too much cabling and wiring that has to go in that area. Also, the ram intake itself: where?

The two faux intakes (with the perf metal shields on them) are just about right. Size: 98mm long x 18mm high each. That's an area of 1,700 mm2, roughly equivalent to a pipe 46mm in diameter. I'd worked out a while ago that a ram snorkel of roughly 45mm minimum was needed. It's not perfect, to get the full benefit of the ram, the snorkel has to be big enough that incoming air almost stops. But this is as good as I get without cutting more intakes. So that's a good start point for the snorkel, now how to route it?

Going around the sides of the fork legs, inside the existing fairings, gets pretty tight. It's difficult to get the snorkel into the airbox past the frame's reinforcing triangles. Do-able, just not easy. The real problem is the section changes that will have to be done. The channels will have to go from wide horizontal to wide vertical, then change shape again at the 90 degree bend into the airbox. Very difficult to mock up and then fabricate, and anyway, it's going to make smooth air flow unlikely.

An alternative was to run the snorkel in the gap between mudguard and triple clamp base plate, between the fork legs, and then up into the front base of the airbox. I checked clearances and it looks good. There's 40mm left between mudguard and triple clamp base plate, allowing for shocks having bottomed out. There's roughly 140mm sideways between fork legs, even with the steering at full lock. There's only the breather hose from the tank running through that area, and with split snorkels I can run the hose between them. Brake lines can be re-routed and individually bracketed, and the speedo cable can run on the outside of the fork leg.

Ocean1

21st June 2016, 21:43

Looks like 2nuO3EC. Check that shaft dia and call Rob at Mana bearings, give him the dimensions and the number and he'll track one down.

What's that face immediately behind the rollers? Case bore back wall or bearing surface? I'd be looking at Ducati tech sites to see if there's any advice that it may be a special too, although if that was the case it'd likely have extra bits on the engraved ID.

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 21:43

Almost C3 clearance? Can't make it out from the image.

Yeah, it's a pain. I'll try and take a better look at the other (matching) bearing in the other split case half, maybe a spot of degreaser and a rag will help.

Ocean1

21st June 2016, 21:48

Yeah, it's a pain. I'll try and take a better look at the other (matching) bearing in the other split case half, maybe a spot of degreaser and a rag will help.

If the gold coloured stuff is just oil varnish then a razor blade will take it off.

OddDuck

21st June 2016, 22:13

Last spot for a bit... something a bit more trivial. I had to replace the screen a year or two ago and ever since, it's been a bit of a push to get the nose fairing on and off. Tonight I finally noticed why: the new screen is interfering with the mounting brackets.

Quick spot of work with a file and voila, things fit together as they should. Aftermarket parts don't always fit perfectly despite claims.

Voltaire

22nd June 2016, 16:44

OddDuck

23rd June 2016, 19:47

The pump guy who did one of the chiller pumps at work learned what C3 meant this week when I told him the pump body should not be 50 degrees only 20. The OEM bearings were 3 weeks back order so he fitted normal bearings..... if a jobs worth doing once its worth doing twice...:facepalm:
Airhead BMW's use C3's in the gearbox otherwise they can get very tight.

Interesting - news to me, learn something new every day. This might explain the apparent loose clearance in the bearings in the spur gears. They didn't look worn so I'd decided to leave them, reassuring to hear that they're supposed to be reasonably loose anyway.

Ocean1's tip of using a razor to scrape the gunk off worked:
322493

OddDuck

23rd June 2016, 20:08

I've worked out a way to pull the last pair of bearings, the tricky ones with no center roller or anything to grip to.

First, pop the rollers out of the cage with something slender like a knife blade. Insert blade between roller cage and outside race, then go around the perimeter. The cage is plastic and flexes quite easily, the rollers pop out without any fuss.

322494322495

The outer race is just a bit too big for my slide hammer collets, which stop at 30mm. I checked but there doesn't seem to be a 32mm available, at least without dropping another $300 on another puller tool. It's do-able with some kind of internal spacer for the puller collet to slot into, though. Lathe something up perhaps, then I had an idea and I took some measurements. It turns out that one of the bearings pulled earlier, the smaller cylindrical roller, has an OD exactly that of this bearing race's ID.

If I cut this down, maybe this'd make the adaptor. First thing was that it was too long (11mm, while the rollers are 7mm), and the puller's collets wouldn't go into it or lock. There are internal grooves which the puller collet's end tapers might slot into, and the inner diameter might match up. So I started by cutting the flange off one end. It's hardened steel, so a grinding cut-off wheel has to be used. This had to be done square, since this cut face will be doing the pulling.

A trick I've used before is to have the object spinning in a lathe chuck and then feed the cutoff wheel in, like a lathe tool. Don't have a lathe at home... do have the old, stuffed bearings. One of the old crankshaft bearings made a nice housing for the bearing shell. Some masking tape on the inner diameter held the two together, then it was cutoff wheel time, while allowing it to rotate slowly. Took about twenty minutes, I couldn't press too hard and there was a fair amount of steel to go through.

322497322498

Then I needed chamfers on the cut face, so it was switch to a flap wheel and re-mount the remainder of the shell onto another old bearing, face to face with double-sided tape.

322499322500

A chamfer is needed to feed the collet in, the end of the thing is flared very slightly. The outer face also wanted tidying up a little too.

OddDuck

23rd June 2016, 20:14

Next step - take the nice new ring and test it for fit on the 30 mm collet.

322502

Success. It fit first time, no probs.

Then I had to get it into the bearing shell's roller groove, so that means splitting it up to fit in piece by piece. Cutoff wheel again, the small piece was discarded:

322503

Test fit:

322504

322505

322506

So now I only have to heat the casings and use the slide hammer again.

OddDuck

26th June 2016, 22:14

Pulling the last two bearing shells worked, no probs.

My camera has failed - Canon 30D, Err Cf - so I lost the pictures. I think it's just the card so shouldn't be too much of an issue to get it going again. It'll be cellphone snaps in the meantime.

Some bits and bobs from the last few days:

I've decided against bead / soda blast and repaint for the engine casings. I was going to buy the gear since I'll be using it again. After looking properly at what's involved, it's waiting on getting a much bigger garage than the one I have now.

The reasons are cost, space, humidity, and heat. Once I buy the cabinet, hopper, dust collector, and compressor, I don't have space to park the car. Humidity in an uncontrolled, cold, damp garage is going to cause a lot of problems with sticking blast media and jams. Paint is going to be tricky to dry and cure properly at the moment as well, without a bake oven. So (ideally) I'll be in a better situation at the next major service and I can make a different call then.

The frame - I've been checking the forums for solutions concerning the cracking. It's hit a lot of people and it seems like these bikes have a lifetime of about 50,000 kms or so before it happens. Ducati never actually solved the issue, they just replaced frames under warranty for a while. Not the best really.

Nichols offer a pair of plates which can be welded in:

http://nicholssportbikes.com/products/NSSFRAMEGUSSETS.html

$150 US, though... ouch. The bigger plate is to be welded in on the bottom triangle, surprisingly. Both plates go in with the welds on the neutral axis of the tubes, i.e. top or bottom surfaces.

There was a clamp-type brace offered:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/463986-frame-brace-alternative.html

It's not highly rated. To get this to work it has to grip the frame tubes with zero flex or give, it has to be like a machinist's clamp, and it just isn't built that precisely. It's not in the right place on the frame to close the triangle anyway.

I tried mocking up what the frame would be like with a decent top gusset plate and promptly found that no matter how much clearance I leave, the airbox will foul on something when trying to remove it to get at the carburettors. This'd make servicing the carbs into a lift-frame-off-engine job. Nope, not keen.

Then I tried mocking up a cross tube, to close the top triangle completely. It's perfect for the frame, but a nightmare for the airbox. Pod filters are possible - lose HP, lose torque, loads of induction noise, have to rejet carbs, but it's possible. I'd really rather keep the airbox.

A member on Ducati.ms described (didn't picture) a solution where he gusseted around the outside of the triangle and headstock, on both upper and lower triangles, together with the more usual internal gussets. It'll be ugly as sin but it'll be inside the fairing, mostly. This would let me keep the stock airbox and battery mount (so would the Nichols plates, which are looking better and better the more I think about them), which brings me to the next stage.

The airbox redesign is proving tricky. I'd spent some more time playing with the ram air idea, mocking up intake paths with bits of cardboard. At the moment the major problem is actually constructing the thing, but arranging a half-decent intake isn't trivial either.

OddDuck

27th June 2016, 08:26

I've been taking a bit of time over the last few days to see how Japanese sportbikes utilise ram air and what the ins and outs of their designs are.

The usual story is an intake or intakes up front, right at the nose of the bike, with ram tubes (possibly as many as 4) curving back to the front lower part of the airbox. At this point the airflow takes a 90 degree turn upward, passes through the air filter, and then enters the resonant part of the airbox. Airflow then turns 90 degrees again, passes horizontally under the lid, before entering the large volume of the intake snorkel area. Sometimes there is a baffle wall and a resonance tube, sometimes not. The 90 degree turns allow easy servicing of the air filter, since it's mounted flat, and also take ingested material such as stones out of the airflow by dropout before the filter.

Construction is by injection-moulded plastic, usually ABS, with rubber gaskets where needed. Ram air requires attention to sealing the system throughout. There's also a secondary system of tubing running to carburettor float bowls, with a great deal of care being applied in making sure that the float bowls are pressurised to match the intakes. Tank vents and crankcase pressure relief valves are connected as well.

Ducati's OEM airbox system is far simpler and a lot less vulnerable to an air leak, but it has a couple of serious design flaws. The first is the number of twists and turns that inlet air has to make as it enters the system. The intake is positioned not just underneath the fuel tank, but nestled at the heart of a cavity in the underside. The bike breathes through the gap between tank and airbox, which is roughly 20 mm or less on all four sides and requires two 90 degree turns in the airflow.

The second design flaw is that the bike doesn't have a clearly defined inlet zone. While rolling, there's enough airflow through the fairing / undertank area that inlet can be assumed to be ambient air. At standstill or rolling slow, the bike will start to draw air from all sides of the airbox (as shown by the dirt on the tank underside), including the rear. It'll pull hot air from the engine's cooling fins, particularly the vertical cylinder.

This means that inlet air temperature can vary. I don't have measurements, but this effect coupled with inlet stub pipes getting hot might explain the bike's notoriously bad behaviour in traffic situations. Carburetors can be set up perfectly for one set of inlet conditions. If the inlet conditions (such as air pressure, humidity, temperature etc) are changing, then problems follow.

The last item that's been bothering me is the unequal induction timing. A 90 degree V-twin will snort air at 270 - 450 degree intervals, and in this design, the carburetor intakes are right next to each other. One of them will be robbing the other of air. This effect will depend on RPM, airflow and resonance, so it might swap between intakes. This might also cause problems with correct AF ratios, but I can't be sure of that yet.

So far so good, to my mind there's a pretty good case for having a go at building my own. The problem is the actual construction. The bike fairings limit my options for placing intakes. The cross bracing in the frame make it very difficult to route an intake into the front of the airbox area, although sides and underside are open. I don't have the means to mould plastic - and it's crazy making a cored mould for a one-off like this anyway. Vacuum forming and welding (via 80-watt soldering iron) might be possible, though. Sketch time, I need to get basic concepts right before proceeding further on the bench.

actungbaby

29th June 2016, 21:31

True - don't have one though. Also don't have space to put one, I'm doing everything in a single car garage, with the car going back in every night. Power is via an extension cord from the flat. It's pretty basic.

One of the reasons I'm trying to document all the tips and tricks (and traps) is to help others, there's quite a few of us out there in a similar situation and I want to give something back. This isn't a go at you, it's just that most of us out there have access to an oven, but getting an immersion bath sorted out would just be too much.

your set up same as mine except no room for the car full of bikes and i mean full. and crap junk.

I am in the process of taking out my cbr 900rr engine to spilt the cases and replace a gearbox bearing or bearings.

any tips ideas . i was going take them to engine recon place just down the road to get them remove a bearings .

Do i go with honda parts or go to bearing place . so far had no luck with honda bearings go there and always say they odd size .

I seen one bearing on ebay but for 93 blade not mine sc 33

OddDuck

29th June 2016, 22:32

your set up same as mine except no room for the car full of bikes and i mean full. and crap junk.

I am in the process of taking out my cbr 900rr engine to spilt the cases and replace a gearbox bearing or bearings.

any tips ideas . i was going take them to engine recon place just down the road to get them remove a bearings .

Do i go with honda parts or go to bearing place . so far had no luck with honda bearings go there and always say they odd size .

I seen one bearing on ebay but for 93 blade not mine sc 33

OK, first, if you're going to do it yourself - clean up, get some space to work. I mean that, clutter makes everything hard or impossible.

Second, I spent roughly $500 on tools to do this. I'm going to be doing this stuff again so that's fine, just be aware that the puller and driver sets aren't cheap.

Bearings: I've been using the SKF distributor and they're pretty good at matching sizes up with the vernier calipers, you just have to get the bearings out in the first place. That said, sometimes manufacturers use non-standard sizes. That might be engineering constraints or it might be forcing customers to pay up for brandname parts. If that happens then that's it, it's pay the dealer, because nobody else will have that bearing.

I would trust unique part numbers for the bearing over model name and year - see if you can get exploded parts diagrams (some online parts shops have them as well), or check the forums devoted to that particular bike.

pete376403

29th June 2016, 23:11

OddDuck

30th June 2016, 08:39

Re the airbox, moulds and so on. Could you make a pattern from polystyrene? Doesn't matter how complex the shape as you can lay up glassfibre over the top, then pour in solvent to dissolve the polystyrene from the inside. Once you get the details worked out, go all out and make it from carbon fibre.

That'd solve a lot of problems with sealing seam lines. In fact that'd solve a lot of problems full stop. I hadn't heard of the dissolving polystyrene trick before, what solvent is used?

I've been spending most of the week looking at the possibilities for constructing the ram air intakes and the airbox itself - off the shelf parts availability, vacuum forming, air hose types and availability. The short answer is that it's not easy, I've ended up overwhelmed by detail.

The hosing itself (if using hose for ram air / cold air intake) is an issue. I've been doing some mocking up and measurements with the frame, triple tree, front subframe, nose fairing and side fairing on the bench. It turns out that there are a lot of pinch points, places where a round hose would be quite limited by available clearance. I'd also prefer a smooth-surfaced hose instead of the usual flex ribbed stuff.

I did find these guys:

http://nostalgicac.com/duct-hose-vents.html

They do an oval pipe in ABS plastic, which looks very promising in terms of using a heatgun and bending / expanding. They also do ABS flange ends for 2", 2.5", and 3" round hose. Don't yet know if they ship internationally though.

I also found these guys, local supply:

http://www.hoseshop.co.nz/newsite/our-products

The site doesn't quote pricing, but they do have hosing which would actually do what I want, namely industrial reinforced rubber. Almost all the hosing available commonly available in NZ is for swimming pools, plumbing, drainage, vacuum cleaners etc, and it's made of PVC or similar light-service plastic. It's simply not up to the vibration, heat, oil and petrol (and fumes), or the UV.

I'm keen on the flexible hose simply because it's easier to install. Some rigid piping is actually best, it's what the current manufacturer standard used is, but so far the only off-shelf stuff that has a chance of working would be the oval ABS aircon piping.

Pete's trick with the foam and fibre would also work, I could carve up polystyrene until I have something that fits, then build up material over that. In fact the more I think about it the better it looks, since a lot of fittings get deleted and it's possible to easily do curves. Have to look into this.

One of the things about building new stuff is that you have to spend a lot of time scouting around for techniques, materials, what can be bought etc... there are dead ends and wasted time, it's just part of the process. You spend a lot of time finding out ways that it can't be done. It's still progress, it just might not feel like it sometimes.

Ocean1

30th June 2016, 08:53

That'd solve a lot of problems with sealing seam lines. In fact that'd solve a lot of problems full stop. I hadn't heard of the dissolving polystyrene trick before, what solvent is used?.

Not to gizump Pete, but I've used acetone before, works well.

Another trick I've tried for a project I never completed is using "space invader". By making a bladder/sock in the area you want to copy/fill, making packing pieces to control clearance and then squirting space invader into the bladder/sock. Took three goes before I worked out how much to squirt in and size and location of vent holes, but it worked well eventually.

If you can't get the polystyrene out, (or in) in one piece you're not going to get the eventual laid up piece in either, so you may have to do it in 2-3 pieces and make provision to rivet/screw them together in place.

actungbaby

1st July 2016, 18:51

OK, first, if you're going to do it yourself - clean up, get some space to work. I mean that, clutter makes everything hard or impossible.

Second, I spent roughly $500 on tools to do this. I'm going to be doing this stuff again so that's fine, just be aware that the puller and driver sets aren't cheap.

Bearings: I've been using the SKF distributor and they're pretty good at matching sizes up with the vernier calipers, you just have to get the bearings out in the first place. That said, sometimes manufacturers use non-standard sizes. That might be engineering constraints or it might be forcing customers to pay up for brandname parts. If that happens then that's it, it's pay the dealer, because nobody else will have that bearing.

I would trust unique part numbers for the bearing over model name and year - see if you can get exploded parts diagrams (some online parts shops have them as well), or check the forums devoted to that particular bike.

Thanks mate got the engine droped out today yeah am bad for clutter i only have basic socket set so far so good.
I notiched bit oil weeping from the head gasket , i surpose be dum not to replace this and get the bores checked. new rings

at the minium is this good idea the bores are plated the engine ran well just few noises from the gearbox.
wasint prepared to sell a bike in that unknow condtion . but i keep for a year or so know.

OddDuck

1st July 2016, 19:15

Thanks mate got the engine droped out today yeah am bad for clutter i only have basic socket set so far so good.
I notiched bit oil weeping from the head gasket , i surpose be dum not to replace this and get the bores checked. new rings

at the minium is this good idea the bores are plated the engine ran well just few noises from the gearbox.
wasint prepared to sell a bike in that unknow condtion . but i keep for a year or so know.

Google and see if you can download the workshop manual - there are a few PDFs for bikes floating around these days. It'll have checks and measurements, use them... a lot of this stuff is too fine to trust to feel and guesswork.

Before anything is done, shop around and make sure you've got a source of spares - and that they've got what you're likely to order. Nothing like taking it to bits and then finding that you can't get parts.

The rings: usually if you're going to pull heads and blocks, it's silly not to change the piston rings while you're at it.

Head gasket: I'm not sure on re-surfacing, the only bike I ever did a head gasket on didn't need it, but check condition of your cylinder head bolts and make sure they run smooth in their threads. If they're corroded or gunked up, it'll be impossible to torque them up correctly.

Tools: get a feeler gauge and a torque wrench if you haven't already. You'll want other tools as you go but those are the two main ones. Check the workshop manual for specific tools, they're a PITA but if you need 'em you need 'em.

OddDuck

1st July 2016, 22:16

Quick go at my preferred frame reinforcement, tube across top frame rails to close the front top triangle.

Prep before welding: cutting to length, fishmouthing, fitting. Not much to say here except it'd be a hell of a lot easier with a vertical milling machine and a 25mm cutter. Filing and fitting is what you do when you've got a bench vice and loads of time. Nearly got there, about another hour should get it into place for welding.

actungbaby

2nd July 2016, 12:15

Google and see if you can download the workshop manual - there are a few PDFs for bikes floating around these days. It'll have checks and measurements, use them... a lot of this stuff is too fine to trust to feel and guesswork.

Before anything is done, shop around and make sure you've got a source of spares - and that they've got what you're likely to order. Nothing like taking it to bits and then finding that you can't get parts.

The rings: usually if you're going to pull heads and blocks, it's silly not to change the piston rings while you're at it.

Head gasket: I'm not sure on re-surfacing, the only bike I ever did a head gasket on didn't need it, but check condition of your cylinder head bolts and make sure they run smooth in their threads. If they're corroded or gunked up, it'll be impossible to torque them up correctly.

Tools: get a feeler gauge and a torque wrench if you haven't already. You'll want other tools as you go but those are the two main ones. Check the workshop manual for specific tools, they're a PITA but if you need 'em you need 'em.

thanks again mate i got a haynes manuall with the bike yes well i agree the things out the frame , i do the gearbox have look over it

see whats needs doing shift forks drum etc wasint shifting bad . then save up for the pistons and rings . i get the torque wrench

and need another set feller guages

pete376403

2nd July 2016, 20:42

. Filing and fitting is what you do when you've got a bench vice and loads of time. .

When I'm filing something and knowing that there is a better way, I recall the story about Burt Munro filing con-rods out of tractor axle stock and think that some guys did a lot more with a lot less.

OddDuck

3rd July 2016, 10:03

When I'm filing something and knowing that there is a better way, I recall the story about Burt Munro filing con-rods out of tractor axle stock and think that some guys did a lot more with a lot less.

True - it is one of those jobs that you just have to roll your sleeves up and do.

I note stuff like this down because I want to keep going with this kind of work. Filing and fitting is fine for a one-off but there's no way I want to do that for every job. My guideline for buying tools is set by need: first time, improvise or borrow, hard yakka if I have to. Second or third time, just go shopping and cough up the readies, buy something that makes the job easy, because otherwise I'm doing it the hard way forever.

Rant to follow, your comment has touched a nerve...

I reckon that something we've got a real problem with in this country is a poverty mentality concerning engineering / mechanical workshops or garages. We insist on doing everything cheap as chips and hard, hard, hard, because people who can produce results through adversity are heroes. Making it easy for yourself is somehow cheating. If anyone complains about it then we tell them to take a concrete pill and harden the fuck up.

Don't work off a bench, work off the floor. Don't take five minutes to set up, and definitely don't tool up for the job, just have at it immediately with whatever is to hand - even if that takes double or triple the time. Take weeks working like crazy in order to save ten bucks. Never tidy up, just work around the mess somehow. Let tools get blunt and rusty, just push harder. Work in the dark, work in the cold, have dirt and oil spills everywhere, go looking for every tool for every next bit of work because the tool is lost in the clutter. Keep trucking. Go hard. Push through.

It's retarded. But it's what we do. We just don't seem to have any idea that it could be better.

I do most of my work alone because I'm fucked off with having to fight with people about my approach vs this culture. There's always someone who got a job done under worse conditions. Good on them, but is it really appropriate to compare yourself to that? Is it about beating the adversity, or do you want to get the result?

Right, rant off, I'm going to prepare some tube pieces for practise at frame welding.

Ocean1

3rd July 2016, 14:07

Filing and fitting is fine for a one-off but there's no way I want to do that for every job. My guideline for buying tools is set by need: first time, improvise or borrow, hard yakka if I have to. Second or third time, just go shopping and cough up the readies, buy something that makes the job easy, because otherwise I'm doing it the hard way forever.

I've seen nothing on the market between cheap shit that doesn't work very well and very pricy CNC professional tools.

There's a few tube notchers on the market that work around hole saw cutters. I don't like them, I've spent too much time doing that in the mill, fucking every 3rd or 4th tube and a lot of hole saws.

From a standing start you could do a lot worse than buying a second hand drill/mill and adding a home made angle plate with a 3 jaw chuck mounted on a flange, marked in degrees.

For a cutter I'd look at rota-broaches for nominal dia stuff and add a cheap boring head to get the weird sizes.

OddDuck

3rd July 2016, 21:36

I've seen nothing on the market between cheap shit that doesn't work very well and very pricy CNC professional tools.

There's a few tube notchers on the market that work around hole saw cutters. I don't like them, I've spent too much time doing that in the mill, fucking every 3rd or 4th tube and a lot of hole saws.

From a standing start you could do a lot worse than buying a second hand drill/mill and adding a home made angle plate with a 3 jaw chuck mounted on a flange, marked in degrees.

For a cutter I'd look at rota-broaches for nominal dia stuff and add a cheap boring head to get the weird sizes.

Thanks mate, that idea about the mill, angle plate and chuck is definitely the way to go.

I'd bought one of the Eastwood tube notchers a while ago and it's as you say, it's just not up to its job.

OddDuck

3rd July 2016, 21:46

Some further work over the last few days... after about four hours of filing and fitting, the cross brace tube now goes into place. There are some gaps, I'll have to see how I am with filling voids while welding.

While fitting I noticed that the frame is cracked through the weld bead at the top RH front support post, as well as at the buttress plate end - hairlines are visible in the photo. It's clearly been flexing quite badly, I'll have to go over the bead again.

I also made up some short practice pieces, fishmouthing by simply cutting a 90 degree notch with a hacksaw. It's rough but should be good practice. Some of these mount at 45 degrees, so there's a tight V to get into for the weld. I'd been told earlier that this was difficult to do, I have to do this kind of thing with the reinforcement, so I'd better get techniques and settings straight before trying the actual frame.

Cleaning of millscale was done in the bench vise with a looped and hand-tensioned strip of wet'n'dry, with CRC.

Kickaha

3rd July 2016, 21:53

While fitting I noticed that the frame is cracked through the weld bead at the top RH front support post, as well as at the buttress plate end - hairlines are visible in the photo. It's clearly been flexing quite badly, I'll have to go over the bead again.
Have your engine mount bolts ever come loose?

OddDuck

3rd July 2016, 21:53

Yesterday's effort was mostly the construction of a vacuum platen, for an attempt at vacuum forming. A platen is simple enough, it's just a box with one side pattern-drilled with regularly spaced holes and a hole for a vacuum cleaner of some kind.

The idea is that a sheet of plastic is clamped in a frame, oven-heated until it's workable, then the framed plastic is draped over a mould placed on top of the platen. The frame is pushed down until it meets the platen edges, the vacuum turned on, and the plastic is sucked down over the mould.

There's quite a few vids on Youtube, this is quite close to the sort of thing I want to be making (note that they're forming 6.35mm ABS):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsdNZFMplyM

A mate and I knocked up something quite a bit rougher, out of some deck plank remainders and some plywood that was spare. Haven't got the frame sorted out yet - also need a mould and the raw material plastic sheet. If I'm making an alternative battery box then this is the way I'd prefer to do it. The camera struggled a bit with the light which is why the photo is orange.

OddDuck

3rd July 2016, 21:59

Have your engine mount bolts ever come loose?

Thanks but no, engine bolts were still tight when I did this work. I think it's purely flexing of the frame under braking / cornering forces / potholes / returning to my driveway backwards.

I don't like the last one but the driveway and garage are so tight that it's either back in or back out.

OddDuck

4th July 2016, 22:25

Tonight's effort - clamp frames for the plastic sheet.

The idea behind the frames is that the plastic sheet is clamped between them during heating and forming. The frame then allows handling of the sheet without it sagging everywhere, and also makes a reasonably airtight bond to the vacuum box.

Bulldog clips (or similar) are used quite widely, almost all of the at-home hobby kits use them. Clips on all sides instead of hinges + latches is a quick way to allow for different sheet thicknesses.

The box isn't flat, the frames aren't exactly free from warping. I'll have to find some weatherstrip for the frames to sit on.

Madness

4th July 2016, 22:59

I also made up some short practice pieces, fishmouthing by simply cutting a 90 degree notch with a hacksaw. It's rough but should be good practice. Some of these mount at 45 degrees, so there's a tight V to get into for the weld. I'd been told earlier that this was difficult to do, I have to do this kind of thing with the reinforcement, so I'd better get techniques and settings straight before trying the actual frame.

Consider getting a stubby series gas lens kit, they go for about $30 for a kit with one gas lens body & gasket, 2 collets & cups. Fits WP17 & WP26 TIG Torches and allows you to stick your tungsten out an extra 1/2" but with no loss of gas coverage.

322804

OddDuck

5th July 2016, 22:32

Consider getting a stubby series gas lens kit, they go for about $30 for a kit with one gas lens body & gasket, 2 collets & cups. Fits WP17 & WP26 TIG Torches and allows you to stick your tungsten out an extra 1/2" but with gas coverage loss.

322804

Thanks, will do - bought the TIG today but suffered detail overload from the relentless tips and tricks from the sales guy... They're just around the corner though, no biggie to go back.

BOC are doing a deal with a year's rent on a D cylinder of argon with one refill for $220, anyone know if this is good?

Also got told that it's possible to fit a 15A socket to the wall without special wiring - the TIG needs this, standard 10A fittings won't cut it. I think it's a bit optimistic that it could be that easy, but on the off chance, has anyone done this and how did it go?

Madness

5th July 2016, 22:40

Also got told that it's possible to fit a 15A socket to the wall without special wiring - the TIG needs this, standard 10A fittings won't cut it. I think it's a bit optimistic that it could be that easy, but on the off chance, has anyone done this and how did it go?

I'm lead to believe that providing the flex in the wall is 2.5mm, the face plate and breaker can be upgraded from 10 amp to 15. Check with Spyda.

BOC are a bunch of cunts. Check out EZI Sawp for an alternative. http://eziswapgas.co.nz/

Pics of the new welder are compulsory.

OddDuck

6th July 2016, 18:29

I'm lead to believe that providing the flex in the wall is 2.5mm, the face plate and breaker can be upgraded from 10 amp to 15. Check with Spyda.

BOC are a bunch of cunts. Check out EZI Sawp for an alternative. http://eziswapgas.co.nz/

Pics of the new welder are compulsory.

Asked the sparkies at work about the faceplate, they'd said it was OK to do it. Landlord (understandably) wants a signed sheet for the work, so no DIY, but he's cool with me organising a sparkie myself and going ahead as and when suits me. Sweet.

Had a look at Eziswap and also phoned to check gas prices. I can see why people want to move away from the BOC model, if you're doing intermittent work from G bottles then it's Eziswap all the way. For what I'm doing at the moment though BOC are actually looking alright.

Eziswap: $499 D bottle purchase (full of course), $150 gas for refill.

BOC: $220 D bottle rent for 1 year, 1 refill included.

There are other sizes of course with prices going up to match... right now I need to practise and repair one frame though, that's all. Cash is starting to run tight. I learned the hard way with fixing the car that when cash runs out, the work stops. The BOC offer will get me started so that's probably how I'll go.

Photos as requested:

Ocean1

6th July 2016, 19:34

Asked the sparkies at work about the faceplate, they'd said it was OK to do it. Landlord (understandably) wants a signed sheet for the work, so no DIY, but he's cool with me organising a sparkie myself and going ahead as and when suits me. Sweet.

Had a look at Eziswap and also phoned to check gas prices. I can see why people want to move away from the BOC model, if you're doing intermittent work from G bottles then it's Eziswap all the way. For what I'm doing at the moment though BOC are actually looking alright.

Eziswap: $499 D bottle purchase (full of course), $150 gas for refill.

BOC: $220 D bottle rent for 1 year, 1 refill included.

There are other sizes of course with prices going up to match... right now I need to practise and repair one frame though, that's all. Cash is starting to run tight. I learned the hard way with fixing the car that when cash runs out, the work stops. The BOC offer will get me started so that's probably how I'll go.

Photos as requested:

A rebranded Jasic, I have one kicking around somewhere, not a bad machine. The helmet might be an issue if it's a cheapish auto. TIG arc is fairly soft, cheap auto helmets struggle to switch reliably.

I hope you asked BOC for their very best price, I got seriously pissed with their rep a few years ago when he called wanting to know why I hadn't bought any gas for a couple of years. The last G size argon they'd sold me had been $395, when their price to the big outfits was $58. After some fairly frank and wide ranging discussion on the topic we eventually came to an arrangement much closer to the latter.

Madness

6th July 2016, 19:42

A rebranded Jasic...

Close but not quite. It's a Riland and rumor has it that BOC have fallen out with them big time, hence their recent clearance pricing.

OddDuck

7th July 2016, 22:30

Electrician booked - should be a 15A mains socket in the wall shortly.

In the meantime, the parts and tools from Stein Dinse came in. I need to pull the rocker arms and camshafts from the cylinder heads before replacing bearings and valve guides, but didn't have the rocker arm shaft puller tool yet.

The new valve guides, standard OD, measured at 13.085 mm each. I'll see about a piloted counterbore or similar to drill the old guides out. Anyone know if there are commercial 8mm valve guide drifts sold in New Zealand?

Removing valve gear from cylinder head, first place to start is to remove both valve covers and then the camshaft cover. This just pulls off by hand, no tool is needed.

I was a bit disturbed to see metal shavings sitting on the ends of the rocker shafts. It doesn't seem to be from anything going wrong in the engine, though. I think it's swarf left over from the M5 female thread, it can be hard to clear this out after tapping.

The valve opening rocker arms are simple to remove - lever the spring clip up with a scriber or similar, get a 2.5mm allen key into the gap, finish levering the thing off while keeping it under control with the other hand - otherwise it'll fly off. Then use the shaft extractor tool. Once the shaft is out, the rocker and the three shim washers simply come out.

OddDuck

7th July 2016, 22:42

From previous post - see photo of opening rocker arm assembly on bench.

The closing arms are held shut by springs (these are needed for starting and part throttle operation, they're quite light in terms of spring force). They're a bit trickier to remove. The way to do it is to pull the spring tight so that the rocker arm exerts no force on the cylinder head, then it's a simple job of pulling the shaft out to strip the assembly.

Ducati make and sell a special tool for just this purpose, it's affordable but difficult to get. I made do with cable ties. The vertical head wasn't difficult, the horizontal head needed a second cable tie to make sure that the first didn't slip off the end of the spring. The screwdriver in the photo was used to help with tightening the cable ties up, this is a useful trick when checking valve closing shim clearances as well.

If you're doing this, mark everything, or use labelled bags - if you mix these components up it'll change all the valve shimming.

There's a single M6 cap screw on the head, with a small copper washer underneath it. This is an oil galley seal and it's notorious for slow leaks, leading to the tarry buildup of dirt around it. I took one out and was surprised to find that it's made of aluminium.

I'll have to check what the creep properties of aluminium are, but my guess is that they're not that good - the screw shaft will have lengthened very slightly over time and tension, releasing the seal on the copper washer. It wasn't particularly tight when I undid it, anyway.

OddDuck

9th July 2016, 19:13

Carrying on with the cylinder heads - with the rockers out of the way, it's time to pull the camshaft bearings.

I heated the heads in a fan bake oven, to 100 C, then used the slide hammer puller as I did for the crankcase halves. No problem whatever, everything came out easy. The camshaft oil seal pulls out with the bearing behind it.

While doing this I noticed a weird dappled pattern of hammered metal in the heads, directly underneath the camshafts. It's in both heads, more noticeable in the vertical head than the horizontal. It looks a lot like ball peening. The metal faces are fresh but I have no idea where this has come from.

There's also very obvious wear on one end of the closing rockers assembly, this was visible on all four points. It looks like the closing rocker spring exerts some axial thrust.

OddDuck

9th July 2016, 19:39

Next step: change the valve guides themselves.

People had suggested guide liners or internal knurling earlier - I looked at both. Liners: either pay a fortune for the liners plus tools, or find a tradie in NZ with the gear. Knurling: questions about oil fouling and longetivity. Plus pricey tooling ($500 US or more).

In the end I decided to go with replacing the valve guides since it was just more likely to work. There's a bit to it, though.

Earlier I'd mentioned the idea of drilling the guides out to paper-thin walls before simply breaking them out. I had a look at the tooling needed to do this: 12.5mm counterbore with 8mm pilot. It isn't a standard tool and has to be bought as bits in a modular system of interchangeable cutters, shafts, pilot bushings and pilot screws. The only supplier I can find inside New Zealand is Trade Tools and they want roughly $200 for everything. If I was doing this regularly I'd go for it, but it's just four guides. After Youtubing several valve guide removal videos I've decided to try just drifting the guides out.

The Ducati workshop manual says to heat the head, then take a guide drift and simply drive the guide right out of the head. The accompanying illustration clearly shows the guide being driven from the valve seat side of the head. This has to be done because the guides have a steel retaining ring. In assembly, this ring sits inside a recess machined into the cylinder head's valvegear housing floor. Once on and driven into place, it's impossible to remove. So the guide can't go down, it can only go up.

I did my reading and found a suggestion from another forum: drill the head of the guide out down to the ring, snap the remainder off, pull the retaining ring, and then drive the remainder of the guide down into the port / combustion space.

The reason for this idea is the burnt-on carbon on the guide nose. It can be very hard. If driven upwards, this will gouge the guide's housing bore in the head. Bead blasting for guide nose cleanup is possible, so is sanding, but getting every last trace of baked-on carbon fouling off at the junction between guide and cylinder port isn't easy. However if you drive the guide down, you completely avoid the carbon problem.

I bought and modified a 1/2" (12.7mm) drill bit for brass / bronze, then found that my current drill will only accept up to 10mm bits. Damn. Never mind, I'd also bought a 12mm pin punch with the idea that I could either use it directly or lathe it down a bit so it had an 8mm pilot.

Lathe's at work, using it during the day can be frustrating. Perks take second place to work, can't leave it set up over an afternoon or two. So I tried a couple of the old gearbox bearings for fit on the pin punch. Couldn't get a match on the steel bits but I could on the rubberised handle.

This went into the bench vise and I had at it with angle grinder, flap disc, cut-off wheel (for the sharp 90 degree shoulder) and Dremel (finishing and tidying up). The trick with this technique is to get the work rotating at a consistent pace while being ground, this keeps it cylindrical and on-center. The right amount of pressure with the grinder got it spinning, then I used braking with my fingers to stop it spinning too fast. There was some eccentricity and the grinder would start to bounce if it spun too quickly. Intermittent water cooling with a soaked sponge was needed. I had to manually turn the punch when using the Dremel. 400 grit paper was used for final smoothing of the surface. It's not exactly precision, best fit is about 0.2mm, but it should work.

eldog

9th July 2016, 20:39

If you're doing this, mark everything, or use labelled bags - if you mix these components up

There's a single M6 cap screw on the head, with a small copper washer underneath it. This is an oil galley seal and it's notorious for slow leaks, leading to the tarry buildup of dirt around it. I took one out and was surprised to find that it's made of aluminium.

I'll have to check what the creep properties of aluminium are, but my guess is that they're not that good - the screw shaft will have lengthened very slightly over time and tension, releasing the seal on the copper washer. It wasn't particularly tight when I undid it, anyway.

I thought I had labelled and bagged stuff on another project myself, I didnt realise that even though all the parts looked the same, they weren't, so much fun and time rebuilding it several times and finding that I had used the wrong parts in some places. Got it right in the end - all good fun:blink:

Has your copper washer gone, hard (work hardened) we used to heat copper washers to anneal them. I am sure some one else here might be able to provide better info.:Punk:

OddDuck

9th July 2016, 22:54

I thought I had labelled and bagged stuff on another project myself, I didnt realise that even though all the parts looked the same, they weren't, so much fun and time rebuilding it several times and finding that I had used the wrong parts in some places. Got it right in the end - all good fun:blink:

Has your copper washer gone, hard (work hardened) we used to heat copper washers to anneal them. I am sure some one else here might be able to provide better info.:Punk:

Yeah, it's easy to mix it up isn't it?

I'm sure it's the aluminium bolt releasing. I've undone old copper washers before, under steel fasteners, and they've always been alright. They release abruptly but initially they're still tight. This one was loose from the word go.

I've annealed copper washers. Don't know if you've done this one, so putting it out there for the other garage enthusiasts... a useful trick if you're short on LPG torches and the like is to use a standard domestic stove top element and a bright, clean stainless steel bowl. Washer on element, bowl inverted over the top, fresh bright foil wrapped around the catch tray under the element. The reflective metal above and below makes a radiation reflection cavity and increases the heating capability of the element. On full power, it's quite easy to take the washer to red heat - 800 C - and soak for a minute or so, enough heat and time to anneal completely. Some wet'n'dry needed afterward for the oxides, just takes a minute or so to scrub it up.

OddDuck

10th July 2016, 19:23

Drilling the valve guide heads out in order to remove the steel retaining rings.

I used a power drill and yesterday's modified 12.7mm drill - the rake angles were deliberately ground down to 0 degrees. Positive rake tends to feed itself into brass and then jam up or start breaking things.

Not the way a pro would do it: shavings everywhere and the drill bounced all over the place, also had a nasty habit of walking off center. The ideal is a piloted drill with a 180 degree point angle (i.e. flat), didn't have one of course so hack away it is... a spot of work with a Dremel and some breaking away of metal with a screwdriver got the rings to come off.

I checked the setup for driving old guides out and then new guides in. The 4x2 at rear of the cylinder head is there to brace it against jumping backwards across the bench.

OddDuck

10th July 2016, 19:34

I had a go at making a piloted drill out of a normal 12mm bit, using the same method as for the guide drift - spin and grind.

Didn't work, at least not in this setup. The flutes on the drill cause too much bouncing. The side loading is also a good way to stuff a nice new powerdrill, too. This is really work for a lathe.

OK, so the fancy, elegant stuff wasn't going to happen. Never mind, there's always a way. I decided to just take the risk and drive the guides out directly. Before doing that, everything had to be washed to get the shavings out of the heads.

Initial scrub in tray with full-strength degreaser, then total immersion in degreaser and water solution. I turned both heads over several times, did a lot of plunge and drains, etc etc... looks like almost all the shavings came out.

OddDuck

10th July 2016, 19:56

Heads were heated to 150 - 160 C, as per workshop manual, prior to drifting.

A note about standard domestic ovens: the hysteresis on a thermostat controller can be as wide as 35 degrees, at least it was on my oven. I found it necessary to hang around and drive the thing directly, turning it on or off at 150 or 160. I left each head in for at least twenty minutes.

Then I gloved up, wrapped the head in a shop towel for insulation and carted it off to the setup left in place on the bench. Then I just put the drift in and whacked the first two guides out. Didn't need to belt the hell out of things, lots of decent taps with the hammer got the job done.

Close examination of the guides showed that this is a dodgy way to do it. The tapered and not-flat drilling meant a real chance of a high spot, localised mushrooming, and damage to the valve guide bore in the head. I got away with it, but only just.

Right, try another idea I'd read: tap a thread into the free end of the guide, put a bolt in a few turns, put the drift right through the guide body, and drive against the bolt in the front, effectively pulling the guide out from the front instead of pushing it from the rear. A T-shaped tap handle is needed since they're down holes at an angle, I made do with a 1/4" ring spanner. The inlet guide (SG cast iron) turned out to be quite hard and difficult to tap.

This worked on the exhaust guide. The inlet guide simply broke as soon as I used the drift, and I was forced to drive from the back as before. That still worked, though. The material used on the inlet guide seems to be quite hard, it doesn't deform under the punch anywhere as much as the bronze exhaust guide will do.

The guide bores were internally wiped with a new rag wrapped over the head of a screwdriver, push and twist and repeat. The head was then reheated and the new guides were drifted into place. I'm confident that standard sized guides will be fine, there was no need to oversize. The guides self-aligned and the correct insertion depth could be felt through the drift and hammer - the ring stopped the guide moving and the pitch of the hammer blows changed.

I did one head before the other - didn't want to swap inlet and exhaust guides by mistake. Having a built up head helped.

Both sets of guides have developed a little internal rolling / mushrooming at the top, from the drift. The seal area still looks OK though.

pete376403

10th July 2016, 21:32

I guess the reason the inlet guide broke (when the exhaust one didn't) is the taper of the inlet guide = less support for the thread. But whatever, you got them out and the new ones in.

Ocean1

10th July 2016, 21:46

I guess the reason the inlet guide broke (when the exhaust one didn't) is the taper of the inlet guide = less support for the thread. But whatever, you got them out and the new ones in.

Inlet guide looks like SG iron, bronze guides would normally be aluminium bronze. The iron is more brittle, and AB is surprisingly strong.

A good trick with taping them for a plug too, means the guide is effectively pulled which narrows it, making it looser, as opposed to pressing the top which tends to force material into the bore making it tighter. I've known it make the difference between successfully pressing a bush out and having to laboriously nibble it out in the mill.

Ocean1

10th July 2016, 21:49

The aluminium bronze turned out to be quite hard and difficult to tap.

It's wonderful stuff, but it's an absolute bastard to machine.

Next time you want a drift or the likes made just PM me and if I'm around I'll sort it out.

OddDuck

14th July 2016, 21:07

It's wonderful stuff, but it's an absolute bastard to machine.

Next time you want a drift or the likes made just PM me and if I'm around I'll sort it out.

Thanks mate!

You're right, the paler (silver) colour guides that I thought were aluminium bronze turned out to be magnetic. Looks like they're SG cast iron. No wonder the one that I tapped a thread into broke as soon as I tried using it.

I measured the guides after drifting and saw how much they collapse under the pressure... 7.99mm on the outer, unsquashed part, 7.95 / 7.96 further in. This would mean direct interference fit with the valve stems on assembly. Time to ream to size so that there's a running clearance.

I had a bright idea: heating the heads prior to reaming, so that I could cut nominally undersize holes (8mm when hot, something less when cooled to room temperature). The reason for this is wear and tear on the valve stem. Running clearance is supposed to be 20 - 45 microns, and in places, if I ream to nominal 8.000 mm, I'm already most of the way through this.

It actually did sorta work when I tried cooking and measuring, but the shift when heads are heated to 60 C is about 5 microns. Covering the 20-ish micron shift I wanted isn't possible without overheating the heads, then there are worries about the reamer heating while I'm working and jamming up as well.

Have to live with it. I reamed the still-warm heads and took everything to 7.995 - 8.005.

Hand reamers (first time I've used one) have a gradual taper on the nose, it means it's possible to feel the reamer align when you start cutting. It was about $29 delivered. I'd been told back in school that reamers lose their edges instantly if they're ever turned backwards, so I kept turning in the cutting direction even when pulling it out.

I haven't fitted valves yet, but given that the seats need reconditioning anyway, I'll be looking at valve seat cutters next. This site turned up somehow:

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/neway-valve-seat-cutters.html

These guys will sell bits and pieces individually, there's good info in there about what's needed.

OddDuck

16th July 2016, 20:39

Valve seat cutter gear ordered - it's pricey tooling so I've taken a risk and just got the 1.5" standard cutters for 30 and 45 degrees. The exhaust valves are 38mm / 1.5", the inlet valves are just over 1.75". The cutter blades are supposed to be expandable by 1/4", which should take me to the size needed for the inlet port. Cross fingers, if it doesn't work then I'll have to reorder.

Electrician's been, I now have a 15A wall socket and a 2.5mm2 conductor extension cable. Went and got a D size gas bottle after, now all I need is a steel plate to serve as a welding table for practice before attempting the frame repairs.

Tried installing valves in heads this morning, just to see how the guide install and ream worked out. Had a surprise: a couple of the valves wouldn't fit.

It turned out that one valve had a raised ridge of metal on its stem, presumably from the opening shim. A spot of work with a needle file and some 400-grit paper sorted this out, before it ripped up my nice new guide. It still didn't fit. I realised that I hadn't taken the reamer deep enough to get the tapered lead portion clear of the guide so did it again.

It was similar for the other valve, but in this case there was a residual carbon deposit left at the very base of the valve stem. The 400-grit sorted this out, then it was necessary to ream again as well.

The valves look like they seat very nicely, from the combustion chamber side. It's a different story looking in the port: daylight is visible through the gaps. I checked clearance with the feeler gauge and the worst result was roughly 0.1mm. Cutting definitely necessary.

OddDuck

16th July 2016, 20:59

A while ago I'd had the idea that maybe the shift drum sharkmouth grabber arm thingy had got worn, thus explaining issues with shifting around 5th / 6th gears.

Finally checked new part vs old. They both come in at 26.4mm, with the old unit being just a tad longer - 26.44 or so.

So this component doesn't seem to be prone to wear. After having seen the design of the gearbox, I'm going to call my gearshift troubles as being from slower rotation of the shaft carrying 5 and 6. Shift with higher RPMs, or allow longer, or both.

So, I started bottom end reassembly. Before the crankcase halves can go together, the conrods have to go back onto the crankshaft. Before doing that, it's probably a good idea to check running clearance, even though they're new bearing half-shells.

This was done by assembling them, using the old bolts, and retorquing to full assembly loading. I then measured with transfer gauge and 25 - 50 mm micrometer.

Guess what. They run looser than the old ones. Previous running clearance was about 60 microns, on a specification of 25 to 56 microns. These are running at around 65 to 70 microns.

After a check, it turns out that there are tolerance classes in these bearings, denoted by colour. I'd bought red standard, but it seems that the forums are full of posts about rebuilding with blue, whatever size that is.

This is not to be confused with buying 0.25mm or 0.50mm undersize bearing shells - this is what's done if the crankshaft bearing journal has been damaged and needs regrinding.

Just to make life more fun, Ducati use the colour coding system to denote balance classes in the conrods and crankshafts as well. The balance colour is painted onto the conrod base cap webbing, between the two bolts. My colour is black. There's also a letter engraved onto each conrod, by hand: B. This is for the dimensional tolerance class of the crankshaft journal bearing diameter, there are A's (slightly bigger) and B's (nominal 42mm).

I managed to get the journal galley plug replaced (yeah, it's been that kind of a day). The rag in the picture is marked with ash wiped out of the threads, I wanted this gone before installation. Loctite 222 was used as per the manual, with screwing in and out to make sure it spread over the entire thread surface. There isn't a torque figure quoted anywhere so I went by feel. There isn't a proper shoulder on the inside to tighten against, the thread simply tapers out.

Pending word from the dealer (and I'll try Stein Dinse on Monday), I've made a start on pressing the new bearings into the crankcase halves.

pete376403

17th July 2016, 21:33

What I have read of older Ducatis makes me wonder if the factory took as much care the first time round as you are taking now.

OddDuck

18th July 2016, 20:13

What I have read of older Ducatis makes me wonder if the factory took as much care the first time round as you are taking now.

Thanks :)

Haven't seen much in the way of assembly defects so far... but I am seeing a lot of basic design mistakes. It really looks like the designers have no idea how things age. A good example is the crankshaft oil galley plug, the big one that I replaced... they've put something made of aluminium into something made of cast iron, in an assembly which will cycle over a 100 degree celcius temperature range. The thermal expansion coefficients don't match up. I've done everything I'm supposed to do but I'm pretty sure it'll come loose again.

OddDuck

18th July 2016, 20:47

Getting over a cold so not garaging tonight... been looking for valve guide seals instead.

Might have found something - these guys list seals by dimension:

http://www.elring.de/en/products/oil-valve-stem-seals/valve-stem-seals.html

Still playing around, but I have a list of seals for 8mm valve stems and 12mm valve guide diameters. If I can link this to a car then I'm away.

OddDuck

19th July 2016, 17:06

Further browsing turned up this online supply house, Irish based but shipping worldwide (and not at the ludicrous money the US places want).

https://nz.micksgarage.com/

Narrowing it down to valve guide seals and then searching for Elring part numbers turned up three matches: 348295, 761389, and 562645. Dimensions matched so I placed an order for 4 of each, postage was about $30 NZD. The OEM Ducati sock seals are about 7mm tall, each of these is a bit taller, so it'll be down to trying them for fit and seeing what works.

OddDuck

20th July 2016, 14:45

Had a reply from Stein Dinse about the bearing half-rings:

http://www.stein-dinse.biz/Ducati/Engine/Crankshaft-conrod-and-supplies/Duc-con-rod-semi-bearing-916-blue::3104.html

This wouldn't have turned up in a normal search. I've had a scout around the other online parts houses (Star Twin, Ducati Omaha, Ducati.com itself) - nobody else even bothers listing parts catalogues from prior to 2001.

Anyway, it looks like this is in the tips-and-tricks side of things, it's recommended on the forums but not mentioned in official manuals or parts lists. I'll have to order in and measure everything to be sure.

Also ordered in a 400 x 300 piece of 10mm aluminium plate, to serve as a (very) small benchtop welding table. I'll have to place it onto a couple of bits of 4x2 to protect my lino workbench top. Wakefield Metals maintain a stock list of off cuts, at:

http://www.wakefieldmetals.co.nz/index.php/cuts/

Credit card over the phone, courier delivery, buying an offcut means you don't have to pay full sheet prices. This piece cost about $100 plus GST and $15 courier. It's basic but should do for tube scraps being welded at a distance from the surface.

Ocean1

20th July 2016, 17:53

Also ordered in a 400 x 300 piece of 10mm aluminium plate, to serve as a (very) small benchtop welding table. I'll have to place it onto a couple of bits of 4x2 to protect my lino workbench top. Wakefield Metals maintain a stock list of off cuts, at:

http://www.wakefieldmetals.co.nz/index.php/cuts/

Credit card over the phone, courier delivery, buying an offcut means you don't have to pay full sheet prices. This piece cost about $100 plus GST and $15 courier. It's basic but should do for tube scraps being welded at a distance from the surface.

:facepalm:

What's wrong with a free manhole cover?

OddDuck

20th July 2016, 18:58

:facepalm:

What's wrong with a free manhole cover?

OK...

Rust everywhere, in an area with engine bits and pieces all over the place.

Low chance of getting caught vs loads of shit coming down if I do... It could cost me. Big time.

I quite like putting piccies on KB of what I'm doing.

People who gain advantage by cheating make life very hard for the rest of us. I don't want to be one of those people.

If someone crashed into the open manhole and got fucked up from it then I would find that very hard to live with.

Finally the thought (of going thieving - call it what it is) simply never occurred to me.

Good enough?

Ocean1

20th July 2016, 19:11

OK...

Rust everywhere, in an area with engine bits and pieces all over the place.

Low chance of getting caught vs loads of shit coming down if I do... It could cost me. Big time.

I quite like putting piccies on KB of what I'm doing.

People who gain advantage by cheating make life very hard for the rest of us. I don't want to be one of those people.

If someone crashed into the open manhole and got fucked up from it then I would find that very hard to live with.

Finally the thought (of going thieving - call it what it is) simply never occurred to me.

Good enough?

:laugh: Peace, dude, I wasn't necessarily inciting you to pilfer stuff. In the dark ages you could browse through treasures at the local scrappie's yard, and a big lump of cast iron would cost you a half a dozen. Makes a good welding surface because it's quite stable in spite of uneven heat, and it only rusts if you wet it.

And I like your piccies too, keep 'em coming.

OddDuck

21st July 2016, 07:21

:laugh: Peace, dude, I wasn't necessarily inciting you to pilfer stuff. In the dark ages you could browse through treasures at the local scrappie's yard, and a big lump of cast iron would cost you a half a dozen. Makes a good welding surface because it's quite stable in spite of uneven heat, and it only rusts if you wet it.

And I like your piccies too, keep 'em coming.

That's a good tip, I hadn't considered cast iron. There's a scrappie in my area and there's a pretty good chance he'll have something rough that I can work off. He's still small enough that Joe Public can walk in and shop around.

Pete, Ocean1: sorry if I go off like a hand grenade sometimes. The name's OddDuck for a reason...

OddDuck

23rd July 2016, 22:13

First attempt at setting up and welding today.

I checked resistance on the surface of the ally plate and found that as-delivered, there's a chance that it won't conduct properly. There's a layer of oxides and oil on top. It's not difficult to scratch through it but a decent contact patch is needed for high welding currents. About thirty minutes or so with block and 240-grit paper, with methylated spirits, cleaned it up. Testing was via multimeter and probes, taking care to place probe tips instead of cutting them in.

I had my first go with the welder on a scrap piece of steel tubing, running weld beads, then trying to use filler rod, then attempting to join pieces together. It's pretty clear that serious practice will be needed before attempting any frame repair. I've had a go at MIG (back in high school) and stick (last year), after just a couple of hours it's become clear that TIG has a lot of advantages but is going to have a fair old learning curve as well.

OddDuck

26th July 2016, 07:02

Using a tube notching rig to fishmouth some short pieces of scrap tubing. I'm making a few more practice pieces, little T-junctions, and these pieces will be the stems of the T.

The tube notcher is a cheap substitute for a milling machine. Accuracy isn't fantastic but it's a definite step up from hacksaw and half-round file. Running horizontally, and keeping cutting pressure light, helps prevent destructive bind-ups or jamming. It's very easy to blue a holesaw doing this so keeping speed down and using cutting fluid are both essential. The holesaw leaves a lot of thin, rough metal around the edges of the cuts so deburring afterwards has to be done.

Finishing was done in the vise with hacksaw and files. I'll have to degrease before starting welding.

actungbaby

27th July 2016, 19:32

Madness

27th July 2016, 21:08

...after just a couple of hours it's become clear that TIG has a lot of advantages but is going to have a fair old learning curve as well.

Get a stool to sit on and get your helmet just right. Ditch the heavy gauntlets and get some decent goatskin TIG gloves, I kid you not.

Allow around 3 seconds to form a weld puddle, any sooner & it's too hot. Focus on maintaining your arc length and introduce filler wire to the gas-covered area but not into the arc itself. A lot of people use a low-frequency pulse even in downhand just to assist getting into a rhythm. Pulse also allows you to crank the peak current up a tad, which can be helpful working with low amps on very thin-walled tube.

P.S - Thoriated Tungstens are mildly radioactive. Buy E3 Tungstens instead and use them for both AC & DC applications.

Voltaire

31st July 2016, 12:14

Dusted off the 900SL yesterday. I haven't used it a lot since I bought it as very hard to start from cold.
PO ( in Japan I imagine) fitted 39mm FCR's and whilst its great once you get it warmed up its a pain.
I had been thinking of replacing the ignition with a Fastbikegear Ignitech ( which I have been running on a race BMW for a few years)
Well did a bit of Googling, took the FCR's off which is a 10 minute job and looked at all the settings.
They were pretty much as the suppliers in the States say to use as 'baseline' settings other than the 155 mains being 140 at the front and 145 at the rear.
The idle mixture screw is underneath and its really easier to take the rack off to adjust.
Too them from 3/4 of a turn to 1 1/2 and reduced the Slow air jet from 1 1/2 to 3/4.
Was not exactly holding my breath.
Three twists of the throttle for the pumps, then pressed the button.
Fired into life and settled down to a nice idle.
Its got a Yoshimura digital meter fitted ( Japanese love gadgets) and it indicated 12 degrees , previously needed a very warm manifold for it to keep running, used to spit and cough and not nice for the sprag clutch.

OddDuck

31st July 2016, 22:12

Followed advice and bought the kidskin gloves. Much nicer to work with. Also using rare earth tungstens, bought a bench grinder and sharpened a series.

I've pictured the last few days worth of test pieces. Unfortunately the good ones are an earlier effort, the pitted, bubbled jobs are today's work. Not sure why... possibly the workpiece picked up grease, possibly the argon in the gas lines has been picking up humidity. Or maybe my beginner's skills regressed in the week... anyway, they really aren't too good. Next thing to try is the 3 seconds weld pool, I think currently I may be running too hot, too fast, and this may be part of what's going wrong.

Got the tube notcher out again and cut the next few test pieces. These are the same wall thickness as the frame, so are better to practice on than the scrap tubing pictured.

OddDuck

31st July 2016, 22:16

OddDuck

3rd August 2016, 17:46

Had a chance for a go with something a bit different in the weekend: a field-portable X-ray set. Don't have any piccies of the setup, sorry, but it's basically a battery-powered X-ray source on a tripod, a light-tight box with a fluorescing reusable X-ray plate and a DSLR, and a laptop.

This isn't needed for the home garage worker. Clean your bike, take a good close look at it, if you don't see any cracks then you're fine.

It is useful if you're trying to see something behind something else, like say what's going on inside an engine without taking it apart. That's about it, really. Definition isn't great - resolution is about 0.3mm or so, depending on the X-ray source - and it's a pig to align on something as narrow as a hairline crack. The only way you image a crack is if you're shooting straight down the crevice. X-ray images only show how thick / absorbent a material is, so a narrow air gap gets lost to low contrast if shooting across it. Even a degree or two to one side or the other and the crack doesn't show up.

The 2 pdf images below are of the crack in the frame, the crack itself shows up as a brighter squiggle line. This is the only usable image from nearly four hours of trying, we did a lot of playing with angles and got this pretty much by chance. The other two images are my practice pieces, one of the T-joints and the straight pipe that I tried beads on. Darker areas are thicker / more material, lighter spots match up with visible pocks or pits.

OddDuck

3rd August 2016, 18:17

The latest practice in welding, a couple of T-joints and a first go at 45's.

Comments while I remember (to help me remember) and for first timers out there... no particular order.

The moment your tungsten contacts the weld, stop working, pull the thing and regrind it. Grind the pool or broken-off tungsten tip out too. If you keep welding regardless, you'll get porosity and it'll never weld out. The porosity will set in virgin areas of metal as well as the contact area, bits of metal stuck on the tungsten will mess up new areas you're working on. The tungsten itself will also immediately run hot, oxidise and deform, this won't help either.

Hot tungstens will oxidise even if they haven't contacted. All it takes is running too hard for too long. After this, they have a habit of melting, balling and oxidising, then the arc becomes a pig to control. Avoid by keeping tabs on how hot the torch is getting and letting it cool again. Don't give in to the temptation to get into it and go hard.

Sharp, clean tungstens = well directed and controllable arc.

Gas post flow keeps your tungsten clean as well as the weld.

If you have to get into a corner, extend the tungsten from the gas lens, use a narrower (smaller number) gas lens as well.

Walking the cup works. In fact it works so well that it's worth spending an hour or two with the mask off and the welder shut down, just practising the motion and getting it into muscle memory.

Welding into tight corners is possible if you extend the tungsten, just be careful about contacts. You will have to make a radius of filler metal, but with practise this radius can be minimised.

If a weld pool appears sunken below the original surface, the amps are too high.

Hot things will roll or fall off your welding table. I've managed to avoid anything personal or too much on the workbench getting melted, but trust me on this, it's going to happen.

Check the back face of your weld, if possible. The pool should only just break through.

The sizzling bacon thing is real, when you're doing it right it will sound just like a rasher in butter. Mmm.

Cheap regulators (like the BOC kit) have a modified pressure indicator to try to indicate volume used per minute. The good ones have a transparent vertical column with a bead. Gas flow lifts the bead, then the scale on the side tells you what volume of gas you're using per minute.

TIG is pricey, expect bucks on setup and then more bucks on gas. It's also s-l-o-w. Especially if you let the damn torch and the tungsten cool down again, like I should have been doing. Watercooled would be nice. Watercooled would be really nice. The duty cycle so far is the torch, not the welder itself.

The couple of test pieces below have nearly finished off my first D-bottle of argon. Not much to say here except that I tried extending the tungsten on the second tight 45 joint, with a much tighter radius and less fill material used. It can be done, it just takes practise.

Madness

3rd August 2016, 18:40

You do have the torch connected to the negative terminal, yes?
It's unusual to overheat a torch running low-amp DC. I suspect you have reversed polarity, which in DC has the effect of putting 70% of the heat generated into the Tungsten, rather than the work.
Very few single-phase TIG machines in this country run water-cooling. Only about 1 in 10 AC/DC machines will have a water-cooler added, from my own experience.
You'd be better off going to a 26-Series torch before buying a water-cooler & torch but I doubt you really need that either.

What are your settings used in the above welds?
Are you using the pulse function?
What diameter and type Tungsten are you using? (Thoriated, Lanthanated, Ceriated?)
What's your filler wire diameter?
What's your flow rate?
Are you referring to the pink cups used on the end of the torch when you say Gas Lens? A Gas Lens is actually a different style of collet body and uses a different series of pink cup, or nozzle.

It's good fun, eh?

OddDuck

3rd August 2016, 19:05

You do have the torch connected to the negative terminal, yes?
What are your settings used in the above welds?
Are you using the pulse function?
What diameter and type Tungsten are you using? (Thoriated, Lanthanated, Ceriated?)
What's your filler wire diameter?
What's your flow rate?
Are you referring to the pink cups used on the end of the torch when you say Gas Lens? A Gas Lens is actually a different style of collet body and uses a different series of pink cup, or nozzle.

It's good fun, eh?

Addictive :)

Torch is on Negative, ground lead Positive.
DC, no pulse (not yet anyway).
2.4mm and then 3.2mm (for both the above), rare earth tungsten. Have Thoriated but haven't ground and tried yet.
Filler wire is 1mm.
Gas flow rate approx 10 l / min.
Pink cups, yeah. My mistake.

Madness

3rd August 2016, 19:13

Torch is on Negative, ground lead Positive.
DC, no pulse (not yet anyway).
2.4mm and then 3.2mm (for both the above), rare earth tungsten. Have Thoriated but haven't ground and tried yet.
Filler wire is 1mm.
Gas flow rate approx 10 l / min.
Pink cups, yeah. My mistake.

You're using too big a Tungsten. I don't know what "Rare Earth" is, but a 2.4mm Thoriated Tugsten is no good below 150 amps DC. You should be using roughly 30 amps for every 1mm of work thickness, looks like no more than 1.5mm? So swap the 2.4mm Tungsten for a 1.6mm. ALWAYS use the smallest diameter electrode able to do the job, irrespective of process.

Use the pulse, it helps with round things so the hot stuff doesn't fall onto the floor.

Turn your flow rate down to around 8lt/min and don't have your tungsten sticking out any more than 5mm beyond the edge of the cup. If you need more stick-out buy a 1.6mm Gas Lens Kit.

I'd be using 1.6mm filler wire, if not 2.0mm. Your beads are very wide and using 1mm you'll be having to stay put for too long to lay that much filler wire down.

Just trying to help :niceone:

Ocean1

3rd August 2016, 19:46

You're using too big a Tungsten. I don't know what "Rare Earth" is, but a 2.4mm Thoriated Tugsten is no good below 150 amps DC. You should be using roughly 30 amps for every 1mm of work thickness, looks like no more than 1.5mm? So swap the 2.4mm Tungsten for a 1.6mm. ALWAYS use the smallest diameter electrode able to do the job, irrespective of process.

Use the pulse, it helps with round things so the hot stuff doesn't fall onto the floor.

Turn your flow rate down to around 8lt/min and don't have your tungsten sticking out any more than 5mm beyond the edge of the cup. If you need more stick-out buy a 1.6mm Gas Lens Kit.

I'd be using 1.6mm filler wire, if not 2.0mm. Your beads are very wide and using 1mm you'll be having to stay put for too long to lay that much filler wire down.

Just trying to help :niceone:

Perfect.

And the electrode should be sharpened to a length of 2 1/2 times it's diameter. So a 1.6mm electrode should taper about 4mm from the tip. And move the tip across the grinding wheel, or you'll wear a groove in it and it'll be good for bugger all else.

Madness

3rd August 2016, 19:54

Perfect.

Thanks, I've had good teachers.

323586

OddDuck

4th August 2016, 08:08

Thanks guys, will do. Looks like it's shopping time, need some 1.6mm ceriated tungstens and thicker filler rod.

actungbaby

4th August 2016, 13:02

Thanks guys, will do. Looks like it's shopping time, need some 1.6mm ceriated tungstens and thicker filler rod.

From the dept i think i know your answer already .

I hoping to measusre my Cbr 900 rr gears and thrust bearings for service limits i brought a veriner caliper from super cheap auto.

Budget one example in the book says 5th 6th gears standred 28.000 to 28.021 mm service limit 28.04

But on the packet for the one i brought says Accuracy of + - 0.02 in other words might messure 28.021 but be 28.041

and be knacked ;-) might take them back get money back just take gear sets to bike shop say can u measure them say nah or ya

Went onto tool shed and there one cost double and it says +- 0.05 know really cofussed

OddDuck

4th August 2016, 18:36

From the dept i think i know your answer already .

I hoping to measusre my Cbr 900 rr gears and thrust bearings for service limits i brought a veriner caliper from super cheap auto.

Budget one example in the book says 5th 6th gears standred 28.000 to 28.021 mm service limit 28.04

But on the packet for the one i brought says Accuracy of + - 0.02 in other words might messure 28.021 but be 28.041

and be knacked ;-) might take them back get money back just take gear sets to bike shop say can u measure them say nah or ya

Went onto tool shed and there one cost double and it says +- 0.05 know really cofussed

OK, I think I can help you here.

Tool Shed - no. Super Cheap Auto - no. About the only place I know of selling decent gear OTC is Blackwood Protector. Online, try Trade Tools.

Look for Mitutoyo or Insize gear for preference. That said, I have had good performance from a relatively cheap Kingchrome micrometer.

Mitutoyo: the best

Insize: nearly as good, usually excellent value

Kingchrome: cheapest, the digital calipers are widely available and look alright but they're crap. The manual gear is OK though.

+/- 0.02: vernier or dial calipers.

+/- 0.005: a micrometer with graduations of 0.01 on its barrel. Micrometers come in spans, the usual story is 0-25mm, then 25-50, 50-75 and so on... it'll be difficult to find a 25-50 at the shops, you'll probably have to buy online if you want to go that way.

For a one off the easiest answer is go to an engine reconditioners and ask - chances are very high that they've got this kind of kit.

actungbaby

4th August 2016, 19:47

OK, I think I can help you here.

Tool Shed - no. Super Cheap Auto - no. About the only place I know of selling decent gear OTC is Blackwood Protector. Online, try Trade Tools.

Look for Mitutoyo or Insize gear for preference. That said, I have had good performance from a relatively cheap Kingchrome micrometer.

Mitutoyo: the best

Insize: nearly as good, usually excellent value

Kingchrome: cheapest, the digital calipers are widely available and look alright but they're crap. The manual gear is OK though.

+/- 0.02: vernier or dial calipers.

+/- 0.005: a micrometer with graduations of 0.01 on its barrel. Micrometers come in spans, the usual story is 0-25mm, then 25-50, 50-75 and so on... it'll be difficult to find a 25-50 at the shops, you'll probably have to buy online if you want to go that way.

For a one off the easiest answer is go to an engine reconditioners and ask - chances are very high that they've got this kind of kit.

you mean get them to messure for me one just down the street he un did a main bolt for me for free nice guy.
Mitutoyo
thanks man watched guy on you tube said this brand was good to iGaging ABSOLUTE ORIGIN said what you said on Mitutoyo

Insize half the cost as good and said the 3rd best iGaging ABSOLUTE ORIGIN looked a ebay 55 nz

What worrys me about my gearbox got blacking on some gears as well few chips on square gear dogs . shift drum is mint

But i may be completly wrong but 2 gears on the counter shaft have quite bit side to side rocking movement . but of course

When there driven there connected to splined gear beside . is the blacking old oil deposit or heat i have no idea.

also 6th gear on main shaft seems be quite dull as in the harding . i was getting gear box whine .this is reason striped the motor.

OddDuck

7th August 2016, 10:24

Been doing a bit more over the last few days. I've had to leave more welding for a few days, money's tight and I want to get some more electrodes and filler rod before continuing. I've switched tack to engine reassembly.

I started by assembling and then measuring the blue conrod big end bearing half shells, in preparation for crankshaft reassembly. Guess what, they're almost exactly the same size as the reds... both are (in theory) outside the workshop manual's tolerance bands as brand new components. Not good, Ducati.

It's possible that they were mis-measured while writing the manual up and thus are actually OK. The manual shows a two-point internal micrometer with dial being used. A relatively small error in locating centrally could reduce the measurement by 15 or 20 microns. It's got to be exactly across the diameter, it's got to be square and straight, and it takes several goes to be sure. The bearing surface material is also extremely soft, it's very easy to dig the transfer gauge ball ends in, and this could expand the measurement as well. Plasti-guage on the crankshaft and an external micrometer would be the way to go here if I was to do this again.

In the end I got pissed off and just reassembled with reds and new conrod split cap bolts. The photo shows a feeler gauge being substituted for the offical Ducati assembly tool - a 0.014" feeler on each side took up the slack and prevented the conrods twisting against the bearings while torquing the cap bolts up. I presume that the factory has some kind of rack mount for the assembly. I found that bracing one end of the crankshaft against a hip and working by hand got it done.

Next - reaseemble the cases. Got bearings back into one engine case half but found that I'd somehow missed a bearing off the shopping list, have had to leave the other for now. I only want to heat and drive once if I can help it.

Replacement of bearings: heat case half to 100 C in oven, use bearing driver kit, square up and tap in. A couple of them dropped straight in, not too suprising with the bearings left overnight in a 5 C garage. Swingarm bearings and seals reinserted with M6 mudguard washer and socket set extension bar for a driver. Rough but it worked.

Switch again, cylinder head reconditioning and reassembly. I tried the valve seat cutters.

They're simple to use. Insert the guide rod, twist and push to lock the very fine taper into the valve guide. The cutter slides on, check the extension of the cutter teeth to make sure it covers the seat but doesn't cut into the head, fit the handle, then it's press down and turn. I had to secure the cylinder heads, this couldn't be done with the heads resting on the bench.

They're reasonably fast, they re-center the seats very well too. Unfortunately they have a nasty habit of biting in and then releasing instead of cutting steadily. It introduces low spots, shown by looking down the port, turning the lights off and using a torch to see if light got through anywhere. This might be down to operator skill (or lack of) of course... I'll have to lap as the final step. Doing a multi-angle valve seat cut with this tooling would be patient and slow work, but it could be done relatively easily in a home garage.

OddDuck

7th August 2016, 19:48

Valve lapping with coarse and fine compounds didn't take too long. Not much to say here - a dab of paste, suction cup stick and 2 forward, 1 back, or as much random back and forth as possible. Pressure doesn't have to be high. I used grease, not oil, on the valve stem - I wanted as strong a self-centering action within the guide as possible.

I used the inspection technique mentioned before - clean everything, refit the valve and close it on the seat, shine a torch at it and look for the light breaking through on the other side. There's been a definite improvement over the valve cut.

This done, I cleaned up the outboard bearing plate's gasket surfaces with a flat metal block and wet-n-dry, then dunked the complete head in a bucket of water and degreaser. Every trace of lapping paste and valve seat shavings or dust should be gone before rebuilding.

The biggest roller bearing is a light interference fit on both the camshaft and the head. The way to assemble it is to heat the bearing, slide it onto the camshaft, then allow to cool. While that's happening, heat the head to 100 C. The camshaft, plus bearing, will slide into place in the head. Then fit the spacer and the belt-side outboard bearing (push this home with the lip seal sleeve). Do everything by hand, there's no need for hammer and drift tube.

The cap-mounted outboard bearings are slide fits over the camshaft ends but interference fits in the cylinder head caps. Heat the caps and the bearings drop straight in, just like the heads.

Valve rockers, spacer washers and rocker arm shafts are next. The spring-loaded closing arms went almost straight in - the cable ties I'd used to remove them were still tight. A bit of jiggery-pokery with a screwdriver and some pushing and it assembled. The opening arms were easy. That done, I could fit a new gasket and the camshaft end cap, then tighten up.

Note that I've removed the shields from all bearings, both sides. Previously this hadn't been done, the outboard bearings both had their outer face shields kept in place, and I think this would have interfered with the lubrication circuit. There are ports for coolant flow on the outer sides of both these bearings.

OddDuck

7th August 2016, 19:55

What worrys me about my gearbox got blacking on some gears as well few chips on square gear dogs . shift drum is mint

But i may be completly wrong but 2 gears on the counter shaft have quite bit side to side rocking movement . but of course

When there driven there connected to splined gear beside . is the blacking old oil deposit or heat i have no idea.

also 6th gear on main shaft seems be quite dull as in the harding . i was getting gear box whine .this is reason striped the motor.

Check all load bearings for play, if in any doubt whatever then replace them. Photo everything, better, get the Sharpie out and label everything so you can rebuild it even if it's down loose bits all over the bench.

The 2 countershaft gears are probably loose on their freewheel bearings. Not a worry here unless it's massive free play permitting a mechanical collision of some kind.

Chipped gear dogs are a worry, your call on these but if there's a chance it'll pop out of gear under load then it'd be a good idea to replace these too.

OddDuck

9th August 2016, 22:26

Some rebuilding and first go at re-shimming the valves.

Rubber shields and timing belt gears refitted to heads, then I refitted the valves. I packed the combustion chamber with a rag to stop the valves falling onto the bench with the heads placed flat, then put the opening shim into place on the valve stem.

Ducati use a pair of half-circle wire clips to retain the opening shim. These weren't Ducati's greatest design... they crush very slightly on the side under load, affecting the very tight closing clearance. You're supposed to refit them the same way. I've never worked out how to tell which side is which, so had to refit at random and hope. So far this hasn't been a problem, I've always struggled to get the closing clearance as tight as 0.000" to 0.001" anyway.

Refitting the clips is done by holding one against the valve stem, pushing the closing arm down against its spring with a screwdriver, persuading the clip into the valve stem groove, and letting the closing shim ride up against it to lock it into place. Then the other can be done the same way, while the first clip sits openly in the groove. A dab of motor oil helps.

Opening shims now ride far too tight. The valves don't close against their seats (well, the only one tried didn't, anyway). It's to be expected after valve seat cutting. I checked the gaps between rocker arm and valve stem head with a stack of feeler gauges, versus the existing shim spacing via micrometer, and it looks like I have to fit opening shims 0.10 mm to 0.20 mm shorter than current throughout.

Kickaha

10th August 2016, 08:16

Ducati use a pair of half-circle wire clips to retain the opening shim. These weren't Ducati's greatest design... they crush very slightly on the side under load, affecting the very tight closing clearance.
Have you looked at using the MBP collets instead?
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Engine-Related/MBP-Collets-2V-DVRS-8mm-Valve-Modern-Belt-Drive-Twin/

Voltaire

10th August 2016, 11:07

Have you looked at using the MBP collets instead?
https://store.bevelheaven.com/Engine-Related/MBP-Collets-2V-DVRS-8mm-Valve-Modern-Belt-Drive-Twin/

Liam at Fastbike Gear does them
http://www.fastbikegear.co.nz/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=706_1755&zenid=rpdcvugma1sr23v9qth0mnkea3

He also has an interesting Frankencati 900ss FE as a test bench.

OddDuck

10th August 2016, 18:06

I'd managed to miss a bearing in the earlier list - this is the cylindrical roller bearing supporting the belt end of the timing shaft mounted transverse at the front of the crankcases. Here's the revised, full SKF bearing list for the engine cases and heads:

RNU202ECP x 1
16005 x 1
6005 x 1
6004-2RSC3 x 1
6305 x 2
2NUC3E0 x 2
35x47x7TC x 1 (seal)
25x52x7TC x 1 (seal)
22x35x7TC x 1 (seal)

Main Bearings
7207 BEP x 1
7307 BEP x 1

Swingarm Bearings
HK2016 x 4
4 x seals, Ducati 93041271A

Cylinder Head Bearings (per head, same for vertical and horizontal)
6004-2RSC3 x 1
6003-2RSC3 x 1
6202-2RSC3 x 1
22x35x7TC x 1 (seal)

Kickaha, Voltaire, yes, the MBP collets are definitely on the list. I have to do some shopping for replacement valve shims after getting some measurements, so there'll be some browsing before making a decision.

OddDuck

10th August 2016, 22:08

Just finished taking measurements for the new shims.

The normal method for checking clearances is to use a feeler gauge between opening rocker arm and opening shim. This gives the opening clearance. Then, taking a screwdriver and pressing down on the opening arm, the feeler gauge will now give the closing plus opening clearance. You have to rotate the camshaft to check that the valve is at the top of its motion, so it can help to take the belts off.

New shims: asssemble the valve, the closer and the collets, so the valve is positively retained and seated. Then take the feeler gauge, make a stack, and take various blades in and out until there's a nice fit between opening rocker arm and valve stem head. Take the operating clearance off this dimension and this is the new shim size.

The closing shim is similar. Fit the feeler gauge stack again, then take the screwdriver and press down on the opening arm to take up slack, then find the new stack thickness needed for a nice fit. The difference between loaded and unloaded is the current operating clearance. Then remove the opening collet and measure beween base flat and internal flat (where the half-circle clips go) with a micrometer. The micrometer will see the radius from the clips, take several goes and see what measurements come down to before the micrometer sees only the hole in the middle. Fiddly and a bit nasty but it works.

Something that initially concerned me was that opening shims are all around -0.10mm from current sizes, but closing shims are going to have to be +0.18 to +0.36 thicker. I think it's a legacy from my one and only track day. I revved the hell out of the engine and it's very likely that things got distorted.

Looks like the MBP collet retainers are going to be well worth it.

actungbaby

12th August 2016, 10:16

Check all load bearings for play, if in any doubt whatever then replace them. Photo everything, better, get the Sharpie out and label everything so you can rebuild it even if it's down loose bits all over the bench.

The 2 countershaft gears are probably loose on their freewheel bearings. Not a worry here unless it's massive free play permitting a mechanical collision of some kind.

Chipped gear dogs are a worry, your call on these but if there's a chance it'll pop out of gear under load then it'd be a good idea to replace these too.

Thanks mate great info yes it is the gears on there free wheel bearings so they benifit having support from gears to the side on engament.

yeah just only 3 gears are available out eh complate set new so be wait to find second hand replacments . wasint jumping out of gear.

That seems to be case on second third gears on blades that have been flogged wheelies etc wear am seeing must be lack of gearbox engine oil. that really pisses me of to see . whats a check of oil bloody slack lazy previous owners.

My bike had whine from what i thought was the gearbox was on that side (left the engine not the cam chain side. and thats more a rattle

at certian revs not a constant. sound as i have

On another forum was talk under cutting gears but o thought thats a term for the teeth face and is done for smooth opertion or

keep things quiet . also tlak of getting engineers to face the dogs . but then you have issues surely with lack harding and wear.

dunno only ametuer

just looking at my options for time and cost on very limited budget but like to a job well . no short cuts. as big job to take engine out. spli it

pete376403

12th August 2016, 20:59

Undercutting usually refers to the angle the gear dogs are shaped to - so that as soon as they start to engage the undercut pulls them into engagement

OddDuck

13th August 2016, 12:50

MBP retainers and valve shims ordered (direct from EMS), together with a closer shim measuring tool. I took a look at FastBikeGear's pricing and the retainers are significantly cheaper from EMS plus of course they've got their own shims. I've taken a risk and ordered as if my measurements were 100%. If I have to re-order then so be it, postage is $30 US for the budget option. There is a calculator for shim sizes on the site but I'm stuffed if I can make sense of it.

Now back on reassembling the engine case halves... Both casings heated, new bearings tapped in, then I found that the timing shaft is a light interference fit on the ball bearing side. Rather than use force I chose to reheat the entire casing half to expand the bearing's inner race and it went in without problems.

I put the circlip back in first and that's when I noticed a crack in the casing - take a close look at the photo and you can see it highlighted. Looks like Ducati have made a design mistake here. The metal above the circlip is very thin. I think that once the circlip groove gets packed with combustion ash, thermal expansion and contraction could break this open relatively easily. Unfortunately it simply can't be helped. Short of a new casing half, or attempting to weld it closed (greasy aluminium... hmm) I'll just have to live with it.

Bearing retainers were threadlocked with loctite 222. The folding table is going to be a useful working surface for manuals and the huge amount of bagged and numbered new spare parts.

OddDuck

13th August 2016, 13:00

Gearbox driven and lay shafts were next. Assembly lube was used on bearing inner races and seals, also the shims can be stuck down with this stuff, stopping them from falling off onto a grubby floor and so on. I'm going with the original shims and will have to try to check clearances after assembly with a new gasket. It should be OK, but with new bearings things could have shifted. It's also possible that I've made a mistake using assembly lube instead of new oil, but we'll see. The lube is basically a grease and it may affect measurements, since it'll tend to form a thicker layer between components.

The reassembly order is:

Driven and lay shaft assemblies refitted
Shift forks fitted (5-6 goes on the shaft with one collar, the 1-2-3-4 forks go on the shaft with two)
Shift drum fitted
Shift forks engaged into drum slots
Shift fork shafts inserted

... and that's it. It's actually pretty fast once confident.

actungbaby

13th August 2016, 17:43

Undercutting usually refers to the angle the gear dogs are shaped to - so that as soon as they start to engage the undercut pulls them into engagement

Thanks mate yeah that makes sence

actungbaby

13th August 2016, 17:46

[QUOTE=OddDuck;1130992776]Gearbox driven and lay shafts were next. Assembly lube was used on bearing inner races and seals, also the shims can be stuck down with this stuff, stopping them from falling off onto a grubby floor and so on. I'm going with the original shims and will have to try to check clearances after assembly with a new gasket. It should be OK, but with new bearings things could have shifted. It's also possible that I've made a mistake using assembly lube instead of new oil, but we'll see. The lube is basically a grease and it may affect measurements, since it'll tend to form a thicker layer between components.

Lube sounds good what did you use to clean your gears up so well look like new you can still see machine marks on the teeth
Some talk soaking gears in oil before installing them cant see how that work only make real mess everwhere not like there poreris

OddDuck

13th August 2016, 21:42

actungbaby - um, well, I didn't clean the gears at all. That's how they came out of the motor. All I've done is drain oil and wrap them in a rag. The photos are a bit over exposed so that details of the gear cluster are clear, that tends to make things like this look a bit cleaner than they really are. I've been running decent oil (Motul) so maybe that helps.

Further work: I fitted the crankshaft, then the oil bypass valve and spring (got it wrong with this when taking apart: there's a cap, which I didn't recognise and unscrew. It's still possible to reassemble by putting bits into the middle). Then I tried fitting the cases together (with gasket) and tightening all screws to final torque.

Very disappointed to find that the crankshaft bearings were loose. Also the gear shift drum had massive free play, of nearly a millimeter. Went and got the Haynes manual (thank you public library) and found a couple of things out...

First, whoever rebuilt this engine the first time around didn't use the right kind of crankshaft bearings. Normal ball bearings aren't supposed to be used. The main bearings are supposed to be opposed taper ball race bearings, and they're supposed to be preloaded via careful selection of shims to -0.15mm clearance. There isn't supposed to be any free play whatever.

With that in mind I've spent tonight measuring up to check shimming through the crankcase. Crankshaft, input shaft, output shaft, and selector drum all have to be shimmed correctly. I'd thought I'd have to assemble cases and then get in with a feeler gauge.

The procedure in the Haynes manual is a bit easier: use a straightedge over the case halves and take depth measurements to the bearing race or surface of interest, subtracting the width of the ruler afterwards. Take whatever shims are present off and then measure shafts end to end, then measure the shims themselves, then also measure the gasket thickness.

Having a look at the crankshaft shims:

Crankshaft length, bearing face to bearing face 87.96 mm
Left case bearing depth 69.14 - 25.10 = 44.04 mm (note that the bearing race has to be held level)
Right case bearing depth 69.80 - 25.10 = 44.70 mm
Gasket thickness 0.35mm

So, 44.04 + 0.35 + 44.70 = 89.09 mm

89.09 - 87.96 = 1.13 mm

With 0.15mm preload, required shimming is therefore 1.13 + 0.15 = 1.28 mm.

Existing shims are 0.62mm (alternator) and 0.35mm (transmission) = 0.97 mm, so this explains loose taper bearings.

So, from the manual, left shim thickness should be:

44.04 + 0.175 (half the gasket) + 0.075 (half the bearing pre-load) - (87.96 / 2) = 44.29 - 43.98

= 0.31 mm

It's not simply half, because to center the crankshaft in the crankcase, I have to compensate for different depths. Running this again for the right shim, to check that the answers add correctly:

44.70 + 0.175 + 0.075 - 43.98 = 0.97 mm

Total is 0.97 + 0.31 = 1.28 mm.

I'll have to go through the rest of the results later, then go shim shopping.

actungbaby

14th August 2016, 18:17

[QUOTE=OddDuck;1130992938]actungbaby - um, well, I didn't clean the gears at all. That's how they came out of the motor. All I've done is drain oil and wrap them in a rag. The photos are a bit over exposed so that details of the gear cluster are clear, that tends to make things like this look a bit cleaner than they really are. I've been running decent oil (Motul) so maybe that helps.

Further work: I fitted the crankshaft, then the oil bypass valve and spring (got it wrong with this when taking apart: there's a cap, which I didn't recognise and unscrew. It's still possible to reassemble by putting bits into the middle). Then I tried fitting the cases together (with gasket) and tightening all screws to final torque.

Very disappointed to find that the crankshaft bearings were loose. Also the gear shift drum had massive free play, of nearly a millimeter. Went and got the Haynes manual (thank you public library) and found a couple of things out...

Allways helps those haynes manualls are the best had factory honda ones but there more for professinal technican.

your photos are brillent amazed you got so far you must have gift for fixing things . so you duke nut i take it .people seem love these

bikes esp the air cooled ones . never ridden one myself for that matter on 3 non hondas in my life.yeah changing the oil is a must

pretty cool have sims for crankshaft i was looking on you tube on bmw with shims in the gearbox think that be

good to extend engine life . i thought these things think of the past in this build it to cost throw away world

pete376403

14th August 2016, 21:45

You can understand why modern (ie Japanese, Bloor Triumph, etc) use horizontally split cases. Vertically split cases introduce so many variables into engine assembly that virtually every single engine is a unique set of clearances. Plus its just asking for an oil leak.

actungbaby

15th August 2016, 13:24

[QUOTE=OddDuck;1130992771]MBP retainers and valve shims ordered (direct from EMS), together with a closer shim measuring tool. I took a look at FastBikeGear's pricing and the retainers are significantly cheaper from EMS plus of course they've got their own shims. I've taken a risk and ordered as if my measurements were 100%. If I have to re-order then so be it, postage is $30 US for the budget option. There is a calculator for shim sizes on the site but I'm stuffed if I can make sense of it.

30.00 nz for postage is great what puts me of ordering parts in small amounts as wack 70.00 nz just on few washers ;-)

I use you shop from nz post i have address in the uk and the usa and know china . cost me 300.00 to get two fork tubes for my vfr 750

They where heavy and long cant remember if was you shop or just sea freight from the states .

I only used them for plastic faring pannels and brake parts of ebay sellers but saves hassle bidding and then hoping they ship to nz

Most uk traders do then go 2 months or so once reachs the depo it shows up ever step of the way its great service.

They price refording postage to you and list each parcel .

actungbaby

15th August 2016, 13:26

OddDuck

15th August 2016, 18:17

Carrying on with the shimming calculations...

Shift drum. In the photos it was obvious that the calipers were at an angle - I couldn't measure straight due to different diameters on the ends of interest.

Trigonometry: End 1 has a 45mm diameter, end 2 has a 32mm diameter, I measured 88.13mm length between end contact faces. The 88.13 will be the hypotenuse of a right angled triangle, with (45 - 32) / 2 = 6.5mm, the short side. I want the length along the axis of the drum.

Sqrt (88.13^2 - 6.5^2) = 87.89 mm true length.

Left side of crankcase: 55.38 - 25.10 = 30.28 mm depth

Right side of crankcase: 85.22 - 25.10 = 60.12 mm depth

Gasket thickness (via micrometer) was 0.35 mm.

Prescribed endfloat (via Haynes manual) is 0.25 mm.

Shim gap = LH depth + gasket + RH depth - specified end play - drum length, so

Shim gap = 30.28 + 0.35 + 60.12 - 0.25 - 87.89 = 2.61 mm (total shim thickness)

For the record, I found I had nearly a millimeter of end play on reassembly. The current shims are nowhere near the right size.

The Haynes manual gives the following procedure for working out the RH shim thickness:
RH depth - 59.0 mm - 0.125 mm (half endfloat) = RH shim

so 60.12 - 59 - 0.125 = 0.995 mm (realistically, 1.00 mm)

So LH shim has to be 1.61 mm.

OddDuck

15th August 2016, 18:28

Input shaft.

The procedure here is to pull the bearing cap off the end of the shaft assembly, fit it to the bearing in the case, and measure depth to the flat face of bearing cup. The shim actually sits on the assembly main shaft behind the bearing cup.

Very similar to before:

Left hand crankcase depth = 79.06 - 25.14 = 53.92 mm

Gasket: 0.35 mm

Right hand crankcase depth = 90.48 - 25.14 = 65.34 mm

Input shaft length = 116.16 mm

Allowable end play = 0.15 mm

Total shim size required = 53.92 + 0.35 + 65.34 - 116.16 - 0.15 = 3.30 mm.

As with the shift drum, to centralise the shaft in the cases, a fixed figure (this time it's 64mm) is taken off the RH depth, together with half the end play.

RH shim = 65.34 - 64.00 - 0.075 = 1.265 mm

LH shim = 3.30 - 1.265 = 2.035 mm.

OddDuck

15th August 2016, 18:35

Output shaft.

As for input, really.

LH crankcase depth: 79.28 - 25.10 = 54.18 mm

Gasket, endfloat, offset as above: 0.35, 0.15, 64.00 mm.

RH crankcase depth: 90.24 - 25.10 = 65.14 mm

Output shaft length: 117.26 (with spacer, which stays, but not with shim, which doesn't. The spacer is thick enough that the verniers will clear the large diameter gear wheel).

Total shim thickness: 54.18 + 0.35 + 65.14 - 117.26 - 0.25 = 2.16 mm.

RH shim thickness: 65.14 - 64.00 - 0.075 = 1.065 mm.

LH shim: 2.16 - 1.065 = 1.095 mm.

pete376403

15th August 2016, 20:42

Japense engines dont leak its called o rings and very good engine case production and tooling

All that plus horizontally split cases - no vertical seam with oil pooling on it.

pete376403

15th August 2016, 20:48

[30.00 nz for postage is great what puts me of ordering parts in small amounts as wack 70.00 nz just on few washers ;-)

I use you shop from nz post i have address in the uk and the usa and know china . cost me 300.00 to get two fork tubes for my vfr 750

They where heavy and long cant remember if was you shop or just sea freight from the states .

I only used them for plastic faring pannels and brake parts of ebay sellers but saves hassle bidding and then hoping they ship to nz

Most uk traders do then go 2 months or so once reachs the depo it shows up ever step of the way its great service.

They price refording postage to you and list each parcel .

Another forwarding service is ShipItTo.com . You have a US address which is great for those Ebay sellers who don't ship outside the "lower 48". They send photos of the parts as they received them. Pretty reasonable pricing. https://www.shipito.com/en/?countrycode=nz

OddDuck

15th August 2016, 22:35

All that plus horizontally split cases - no vertical seam with oil pooling on it.

I was wondering, what effect would horizontal split have on end float clearances? Is it now possible and relatively easy to machine everything so that shimming isn't an issue anymore?

actungbaby

16th August 2016, 00:18

Another forwarding service is ShipItTo.com . You have a US address which is great for those Ebay sellers who don't ship outside the "lower 48". They send photos of the parts as they received them. Pretty reasonable pricing. https://www.shipito.com/en/?countrycode=nz

Thanks Pete i look at that sounds good mate i run out money spent 2 k on the old vfr crazy i know

I think ultimate whould be if you chould have few diffrent panels arrive and put in the one box. ;-) my 4 sides right left front

left right midde where 100 ukp each and about that to post each on one by one as had buy them as i chould afford.

Shit you can lol i sound like that add i better get one hair cut before all falls out with stress.

wow had a look cool stuff mate

OddDuck

20th August 2016, 19:06

Shims on order, it'll probably be a few weeks. While I was at it, I took the liberty of ordering a number of swingarm shims as well. It turns out that alignment of front and rear sprockets is very important for chain wear life and the only real way to adjust that alignment is via the shims on the swingarm bearings.

Welder back down into the garage, doing the last set of 45 degree, 25mm, 2.4mm wall thickness tube samples before attempting the frame. Welder settings were:

1.6mm tungsten, 2% thoriated
1 amp / thou thickness, equating to 94 amps
DCEN (direct current, electrode negative)
10 l/min shielding gas (argon)
filler rod specified for mild steel (forget the type but it's standard)

This went far better than earlier attempts. I had to cannibalise earlier test pieces for raw material, so took the opportunity to check their welds. One of these is pictured, hacksawed just above the weld - this was my first attempt at the neck, and I hadn't extended the tungsten or used a narrow cup. There's a massive buildup of filler but a void behind it.

The 45's shown here are all today's effort.

OddDuck

20th August 2016, 19:16

Getting a bit more confident - decided to go ahead on the first of the frame repairs, fusion welding the cracks at the root of the gusset.

First step was to wash the entire frame down with degreaser and rinse with water. This was done with catch trays on the folding table. Next, take the paint off at all weld areas. Every trace of paint had to go.

I started with a paint stripper disk and an angle grinder. I wouldn't recommend this - it's very easy to bump into things with the disk by accident. After a while I switched to wet'n'dry, with meths as working fluid, then just wet'n'dry on its own. A roll of cloth-backed abrasive (can't remember what the stuff's called right now) would have been very good: put a strip around the frame, push-pull, take half a diameter straight down to bare metal. Anyway, got there, with some elbow grease.

The paper can't get into the corners of MIG beads though. Acetone, applied via a rag (to soften / dissolve the paint) and a wire brush did. Final cleanup with more acetone and it was ready to weld.