Society

[Lou Girardin]

I was musing during quiet moment.
When I was a kid there was a murder at the Italian club in Wellington (The La Mattina murder). This caused a huge furore because killings were extremely rare in those days. The members of the club were mortified that this happened in our community.
Now we have animals who'll kill a hitchiker for no discernable reason. Did she turn him down? Or did he want her meagre possessions? Whatever it was, it hardly seemed worth killing for.
These days, I think we average a murder every 2 days or so.
Why?
What has turned so many people into psychpaths?

[spudchucka]

What has turned so many people into psychpaths?
I'm amazed that you haven't suggested that speed cameras, the introduction of the highway patrol and the 11kph speed tolerance could be to blame.

[scumdog]

I know what you mean Lou, when I was a kid in Nelson (as opposed to still being a kid where I am at present! :laugh: ) there was a murder of of a taxi-driver, it was in the headlines all over the country for ages, likewise the trial of the murderer (about 1964) but now we get killing regularly - and more and more often.
We've had three homicides down here recently whereas it was many years before that when Bailey did his thing.

What gives with the old 'live and let live' theory? why does it not exist to the same extent?

[Postie]

I was musing during quiet moment.
When I was a kid there was a murder at the Italian club in Wellington (The La Mattina murder). This caused a huge furore because killings were extremely rare in those days. The members of the club were mortified that this happened in our community.
Now we have animals who'll kill a hitchiker for no discernable reason. Did she turn him down? Or did he want her meagre possessions? Whatever it was, it hardly seemed worth killing for.
These days, I think we average a murder every 2 days or so.
Why?
What has turned so many people into psychpaths?

TV, movies, society itself. More recently video games like GTA Vice city. who knows, its just life and it seems to be less and less valued every day.
It seems that everyone looks for excuses in every human fault, they had a shit childhood or they have a mental disease. greater use of inhibiting and addictive drugs, the worst one being P. Every fucker has an excuse and no reasons.

[tracyprier]

Breakdown of the basic family unit and "modern" parenting that teaches people to do what they like and screw everyone else.

Also, I used to be one of those that said violence in the media was not a cause, now I tend to believe the opposite.

[scumdog]

TV, movies, society itself. More recently video games like GTA Vice city. who knows, its just life and it seems to be less and less valued every day.
It seems that everyone looks for excuses in every human fault, they had a shit childhood or they have a mental disease. greater use of inhibiting and addictive drugs, the worst one being P. Every fucker has an excuse and no reasons. and takes no responsibility!!

[James Deuce]

TV, movies, society itself. More recently video games like GTA Vice city. who knows, its just life and it seems to be less and less valued every day.

Nope. All a smokescreen. One simple word: Me. One complex social revolution: Post Modernism


It seems that everyone looks for excuses in every human fault, they had a shit childhood or they have a mental disease. greater use of inhibiting and addictive drugs, the worst one being P. Every fucker has an excuse and no reasons.

Yup. Thanks to the pernicious concept that self is more important than society, community, family, and friends. Blimey. Maybe we do have something to learn from Maori social structures.

We've also changed our goals in life from simply existing and doing the best we can, to a search for personal fulfilment and happiness.

We're paying the price for making it OK to live an undisciplined, selfish life.

[spudchucka]

We're paying the price for making it OK to live an undisciplined, selfish life.
I tottaly agree.

[Sniper]

I think its just down to parenthood. I don't see how the kids can grow up to be respectable adults when all they see while growing up id drunken rowdyness.

[James Deuce]

Breakdown of the basic family unit and "modern" parenting that teaches people to do what they like and screw everyone else.

Also, I used to be one of those that said violence in the media was not a cause, now I tend to believe the opposite.

The family unit is an Industrial age myth. Human beings have always lived in family groups, with extended family providing care and education for children, and care and help for the broader family. A solo mother would be no such thing in most pre-industrial cultures.

You're right about the message that children are given, and that includes such simple things as it not being socially acceptable for a child to make their own way too and from school anymore. They have to be "protected" from a vast seething hoard of disgusting people who would prey upon them - so sayeth the "media". Best fun I had as a kid was getting to and from school. Now we drop them off and pick them up, reinforcing the message that no one is to be trusted.

[Motu]

I thought it was obvious - the killer drove a 4x4....case closed,next please....

[kerryg]

The society I grew up in was a more inclusive one than now. I see beggars on the street every day (I work in Auckland's CBD). Kids are working as prostitutes in South Auckland. There are old lags in filthy clothes wandering around muttering and cursing and picking up cigarette butts not 50 metres from my office.....probably as I type this. Where I park in the morning I walk past an area (first floor stairwell thingy in Elliott St) where homeless people sleep. You can sometimes smell it before you see it. We tolerate now what would have been unthinkable a generation ago. There are people who are marginalised now, for whom there were better safety nets in the past. I think these days we value our fellow humans less, we have lost empathy. That's a part of it. I'm not offering any solutions, just an observation...

[Sniper]

I thought it was obvious - the killer drove a 4x4....case closed,next please....

That only counts if the victim owned a motorcycle :laugh:

[Hitcher]

I blame the Labour Gummint...

[Biff]

TV, movies, society itself. More recently video games like GTA Vice city. who knows, its just life and it seems to be less and less valued every day.

There is loads of evidence to prove that you may be onto something there. Not that watching/playing violent games/films etc necessarily turn you into a killer – but watching such violence, even on the news, definitely de-sensitises people to killing, death and suffering. So we've become more accustomed to it as a society.

[ZorsT]

I blame the Labour Gummint...
I was expecting something more original from you Mr H.

[Eurodave]

I reckon its all down to the populations general desensitisation to murder/death/violence because of its commonplace showing on TV,the movies,playstation games etc etc
Every second TV programme/video game is infested with portrayals of mans inhumanity to his fellow man so much so that nothing shocks or outrages us anymore.Its the 'Death is commonplace so who cares' attitude

[vifferman]

Maybe we do have something to learn from Maori social structures.
In theory, maybe.
[generalisation and/or pluck it out of the air mode on]
In practice - Maori are over-represented in crime stats (even though stats are lies) and in penal institutions. One pssible cause is that even though the whanau / extended family unit looks good, in actuality, many Maori abandon parental responsibility in favour of farming the younger kids out to older siblings/cousins to look after. OK if they're good role models, but in many cases, the 'caregivers' are themselves disadvantaged by being subject to the same 'parenting'.

Here's another bitch. The Gummint (of any flavour - they're all the same) say that the key to NZ's supposed economic woes is our small population. Because our gubmintation is driven by dubious Keynesian economic theories, not quality of life, we've been sucked into this. Unfortunately, as population grows, so does crime, the social conscience gets hardened, people become more insular, blah, blah, blah.
Just look at Auckland, with ALL sorts of problems, rise in drug-related crimes, rise of the Triads, etc. Does Stewart Island / Wanaka / Arrowtown have the same problems? (I don't actually know, but I'm hoping not.)
[/generalisation and/or pluck it out of the air mode off]

[yungatart]

I blame the focus on rights without responsibilities, "what's in it for me", rather than what can I contribute, and a total lack of respect for oneself, let alone anyone else.

[jrandom]

watching such violence, even on the news, definitely de-sensitises people to killing, death and suffering.

'strue.

I reckon I'd be OK with killing someone, should the necessity and opportunity arise. particularly if I didnt like them very much.

in fact.

the Marv character, in Sin City?

male version of me. right on the button.

[vifferman]

There is loads of evidence to prove that you may be onto something there. Not that watching/playing violent games/films etc necessarily turn you into a killer – but watching such violence, even on the news, definitely de-sensitises people to killing, death and suffering. So we've become more accustomed to it as a society.
Isn't your willy getting tired of being waggled around so violently?
I keep hoping it will fall off, or maybe Mrs Biff will Bobbetise it...

[Biff]

Isn't your willy getting tired of being waggled around so violently?
I keep hoping it will fall off, or maybe Mrs Biff will Bobbetise it...

Watch it long enough and it'll hypnotise you.

Watch the willy, and count to 20. You are feeling tired. You do want to transfer your bank balance into to my account. And your real name is Shirley and you will walk around as if you've just been treated to a colonic irrigation by a Nepalese cucumber totting sociopath.
:doctor:

[Sniper]

I blame the Labour Gummint...

I blame the Greens

[Paul in NZ]

Well... Without the education to wrap it all up into a nicely worded parcel I think about my days when I started work with the dear old NZPO....

yes, there were slackers and wasters but there were also social workers and carers if you fell by the wayside. nearly every Exchange had a staff member that was not quite 100% effective. Often due to a mental or physical injury suffered after they had joined up. Often they were on reduced pay BUT they were cared for and included plus had the self respect that comes with earning a living. They were a part of the family for as long as they needed us and as such they were looked after.

There were events that everyone came too as well. The annual ball was a major do! Sporting events (national competitions), cafe's, medical schemes etc that we paid for ourselves..

Naturally... We got all modern and there was no place for these gentle souls and they (and their official carers) were the first to go. A couple of them topped themselves and we were all encouraged to look after our own interests instead of doing what we had been doing which was building a top notch communications infrastructure. (trust me, the cheaper calls etc you enjoy NOW were based on this work and are in the main due to advances in technology, not management practises)

The clever self serving greedy cunts (sorry) that we used to take out the back and whack over to teach them some basic humanity and decency were the first to get promoted and now are extracting their revenge on the social masses.

Yes... I do blame the labour government. Heartless intellectuals that think they can solve all the problems by coming up with a strategy to manage units instead of a bit of care and humanity and looking down on the huddled masses. I detest them (and from me thats strong language)

I dunno....

[Paul in NZ]

Here's another bitch. The Gummint (of any flavour - they're all the same) say that the key to NZ's supposed economic woes is our small population. Because our gubmintation is driven by dubious Keynesian economic theories, not quality of life, we've been sucked into this. Unfortunately, as population grows, so does crime, the social conscience gets hardened, people become more insular, blah, blah, blah.
Just look at Auckland, with ALL sorts of problems, rise in drug-related crimes, rise of the Triads, etc. Does Stewart Island / Wanaka / Arrowtown have the same problems? (I don't actually know, but I'm hoping not.)
[/generalisation and/or pluck it out of the air mode off]

I agree...

We don't need anymore people here. In fact I'd happily nominate 500,000 or so we could do without...

The only bastards that get richer are the bosses and politicians etc. I for one would rather have a less complicated, quieter life.

Cheers

[Lou Girardin]

I'm amazed that you haven't suggested that speed cameras, the introduction of the highway patrol and the 11kph speed tolerance could be to blame.

Spud, I have it on good authority that Wobbie Wobinson no longer monitors this site. We haven't heard from Bondagebunny for ages either. Co-incidence? I think not.
So you can relax, you don't have to be seen as defender of the one true faith anymore.

[zadok]

It would be easy to turn this into another 'religeous ravings' type post (which I don't intend to do), but the Bible does say it will be like the days of Noah........... :done:

[James Deuce]

Is it raining?

[Big Dave]

There's also lots more people now.

and

lots more media covering events and sensationalising and giving you not only local crime - but the shockers from Kabul and St Kilda.
Some of it is proportional to the amount of data you receive now - as opposed to back then.

[Hitcher]

A brave man that Noah. Going out in a wooden boat with two termites.

[Wolf]

Lack of responsibility for one's actions is a major contributor, IMO - responsibility and discipline is something Juliet and I are working on instilling in our children, teaching them that actions have consequences. 3-year-old poured the milk down the toilet - a whole 2 litre bottle, quess who got to watch the 2-year-old drink a milkshake while he had only a cordial. He also broke his brother's toy car so I made him give his brother his own toy car as a replacement.

The media has a lot to answer for, sure, portraying images of violence and bombarding people with "buy, buy, buy, get a better this or bigger that", but ultimately, it is the people's own individual choices to buy into that crap and develop a "me want, me take - by whatever means necessary" attitude.

The messages they get from society - reflected in our laws - are that people are prepared to turn a blind eye - "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" (Edmund Burke) - of course, these days the law punishes the "good man" for acting to stop a crime, so there's a disincentive to act anyway.

Political Correctness has banged more than a few nails into the coffin as well - it is not PC to put people who cannot look after themselves into hospital wards, so they're put out into the community with even less funding to ensure they get the care they need and we have real-world examples of Pratchett's Foul Ol' Ron shuffling around the streets, digging in rubbish bins and muttering "Millenium Hand and Shrimp" or grubbing cigarette butts off the footpath. Also PC states that the criminal is the victim - a poor disadvantaged person from a broken home, beaten by uncaring parents who cannot help the way (s)he is.

Well, here's some news: I'm from a broken home - not broken early enough by my reckonning as I had to endure more years of beatings than I would have, had my parents split up sooner. We were pretty poor - we had food, but bugger-all else. Perhaps I should be out stealing from people and taking what I want - using violence if those horrible well-off bastards won't give it to me. Perhaps I should do that instead of working for a living. And maybe I should beat my kids and belittle them, tell them they are worthless and won't amount to nuthin' - because I "don't know any better". I can't help it after all, I'm not responsible for my actions - it's all my parents' fault...

I'm sure the PC brigade will fall overthemselves to uphold my "right" to be a rotten little prick.

Why don't I? Because I am responsible for my actions and the consequences thereof. I make my own choices in life.

Out of the night that covers me
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

-- Out of The Night That Covers Me (Invictus) - W.E. Henley (1849-1905)

[*sic]

I reckon I'd be OK with killing someone, should the necessity and opportunity arise. particularly if I didnt like them very much.

lies.

im sorry but its alot different to kill some pixels on a screen than to actually be in the situation where you have to do the deed.

even in the most dire of a situation it would mess you up emotionally for a very long time, indefinatley more likely.

ask any war vet who had to, when it was a choice "him or me" moment, yea some choose them, and now they all feel the pain.

idle chat about "yea i would totally be cool with smoking those fools" is ass im sorry.

[Big Dave]

A brave man that Noah. Going out in a wooden boat with two termites.

Fortunately he had the Echidnas and Anteaters too.

[yungatart]

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old
friend, by the name of Common Sense, who has been
with us for many years. No one knows for sure how
old he was since his birth records were long ago
lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such
valued lessons as knowing when to come in out of
the rain, why the early bird gets the worm and
that life isn't always fair. Common Sense lived by
simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more
than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies
(adults, not kids, are in charge).

His health began to rapidly deteriorate when well
intentioned but overbearing regulations were set
in place. Reports of a six-year-old boy charged
with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate,
teens suspended from school for using mouthwash
after lunch, and a teacher fired for reprimanding
an unruly student only worsened his condition..

It declined even further when schools were
required to get parental consent to administer
aspirin to a student but could not inform the
parents when a student became pregnant and wanted
to have an abortion. Finally, Common sense lost
the will to live as the Ten Commandments became
contraband, churches became businesses and
criminals received better treatment than their
victims. Common Sense finally gave up the ghost
after athletes and CEOs salaries increased to
between 9 thousand and 90 thousand dollars per
HOUR, and woman failed to realize that a steaming
cup of coffee was hot, spilled it in her lap, and
was awarded a huge settlement for simply being
stupid.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents,
Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion; his
daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He
is survived by two stepbrothers; My Rights and Ima
Whiner. Not many attended his funeral because so
few realized he was gone. If you remember him pass
this on, if not he will be forgotten.

[Lou Girardin]

I'm tending to agree with the increase in the 'self is all that matters' faction. But while that makes sense with property crime, it's a much longer stretch to killing.
On one hand I agree with capital punishment to remove those people. On the other, would state killing reinforce, for those same people, the idea that killing is of no matter.

[jrandom]

im sorry but its alot different to kill some pixels on a screen than to actually be in the situation where you have to do the deed.

you done it yourself then?

I speak as a result of genuine self-analysis. naturally it will be better if any question as to the accuracy thereof never needs to be answered.


ask any war vet who had to, when it was a choice "him or me" moment, yea some choose them, and now they all feel the pain.

pah. plenty did the job and didn't worry too much about it. they neither enjoyed it nor were tormented by it.

shall I start referring you to specific sources and quotes?

you present one side only.

however if you're talking from personal experience I will shut up out of respect. which is not something I do very often.

[ManDownUnder]

however if you're talking from personal experience I will shut up out of respect. which is not something I do very often.

Sarge - your thoughts?

[Wolf]

On the other, would state killing reinforce, for those same people, the idea that killing is of no matter.
I feel it would - like smacking your kid while saying don't hit your brother gives conflicting messages.

I'm of the "permanent removal from society for the good of society" opinion, but I tend to favour the "stick 'em in prison for the rest of their natural life, no parole" tactic - and make the buggers work to pay back what they have taken. I think it unfair that a criminal gets better meals than I do (and I have to cook the fucking meals, we don't have a state-funded chef in our kitchen) while the poor buggers he's wronged get nothing.

What does the court mete out: prison terms - three meals a day, television, the guards aren't allowed to call you filth, "rehabilitation" training and you get given money to start afresh on your release - or fines whereby you give money to the courts.

What do the victims get out of it? Who pays for the replacement of stolen/damaged goods? The insurance company. Who pays the higher premiums afterwards and loses the "No Claims" benefits. What replaces the husband/father/wage earner or wife/mother/wage earner who is killed or maimed for life? Nothing can. But somehow the idea that the killer will spend a few years inside is supposed to "make" the victim feel "better".

And there is no shortage of PC pricks to villify the victims if they didn't "forgive" the bastard that did it.

Apparently I am a heartless monster. I am "harsh". I have not forgiven a friend of nearly twenty years who "sexually molested" a five-year-old girl, the daughter of a mutual friend. (PC crap again, it's "only" sexual molestation, not rape because he didn't stick his cock into her).

He got 2.5 years' prison and served less than two, she gets a life sentence of psych problems and mistrust that she must overcome and I'm the bastard because I can't just forgive the poor unfortunate bugger who had a hard life which forced him to interfere with a minor.

Fuck forgiveness. He raped her. I don't give a damn about "penile penetration" or any other such PC shit. He took her innocence and abused her trust - "rape" in my books.

If I had my way, that bastard would be in jail for the rest of his life so he could never again do that to a child. And while he was in there I would have him working 10 hour days to pay for his food and pay her reparations for the rest of his natural life.

I oppose the death sentence in part because of the "mixed message" - Thou shalt not kill but we can - and in part because it gives nothing back to the victims. "Revenge" is hollow. The knowledge that the murderer of one of my family was dead would give me no comfort. I would expect that the killer spent the rest of his life denied the possibility of doing it again and repaying my family for the loss.

[mstriumph]

Wolf - you are a better person than i am. :niceone:

[mstriumph]

lies. ...
ask any war vet who had to, when it was a choice "him or me" moment, yea some choose them, and now they all feel the pain.

idle chat about "yea i would totally be cool with smoking those fools" is ass im sorry.

there would be as broad a spread of reactions to this as there would be to any other such hypothesis

[ManDownUnder]

I feel it would - like smacking your kid while saying don't hit your brother gives conflicting messages.
...

I would expect that the killer spent the rest of his life denied the possibility of doing it again and repaying my family for the loss.


BLING BLING BLING

nothing more to say
MDU

[TLDV8]

I don't know the answer...but..can someone remind me the last time they saw a carrot where you could eat the outside off leaving the crunchy centre or saw a wishbone that wasn't like rubber. :confused:

[mstriumph]

gotta grow your own TLDV8 - them's lifestyle choices ........

[Jamezo]

It seems to all come down to this curious dichotomy between the 'master of my fate' school, and the 'invisible hand of society' school.

while we are, for all campers and dolphins*, the masters of our own personal domain; there are very real societal factors, which over a large population sample, will change individuals' behaviour patterns.

there is a HUGE difference between allowing EvilBaddieCrimeDoers to blame their mis-deeds on their upbringing/income/race/whatever (which is charitably described as 'overzealous PC nonsense'), and acknowledging that these social factors do in fact exist.

once we have simple acknowledgement, we can begin to identify these factors, and then work on changing them.

we need to operate a low form of 'doublethink', holding the idea that, yes, in fact people are directly responsible for their actions (or else we couldn't lock no-one up, see :sherlock:), while also actively working on building a society that quite simply produces less criminals.

too many people are so wrapped up in 'cult of the individual' thinking to even consider the social causes of problems such as crime. they are to a large extent operating under one of the main capitalist lies, that "1,000 people working selfishly in their own self-interest will produce the most favourable outcome for those 1,000 as a whole". it seems so ridiculous as to be rejected out of hand, yet it is one of the main tenets of the capitalist thinking that we are subjected to from birth. we cannot make much progress until we completely and finally reject this.


while I will not totally disagree with the idea of the Labour government, at least on a very superficial level, encouraging the culture of 'blame your crime on something', there is a sadly overwhelming body of evidence that shows that right-wing, neo-liberal (uber-Keynesian) economic and social policy ALWAYS leads to greater socio-economic disparity, the grandaddy of all crime factors. if someone were to produce a chart of relative economic disparity and crime levels in NZ over the past 20 years, the results would be totally clear-cut.

in short, I'm a filthy communist and don't believe anything I say (but please do)

* in-tents and porpoises

[mstriumph]

... but if the answer is so simple, why has nobody acted on it? :drinkup:

[zadok]

A brave man that Noah. Going out in a wooden boat with two termites.
Ripper :laugh: :niceone:

[Ixion]

It seems to all come down to this curious dichotomy between the 'master of my fate' school, and the 'invisible hand of society' school.

while we are, for all campers and dolphins*, the masters of our own personal domain; there are very real societal factors, which over a large population sample, will change individuals' behaviour patterns.

there is a HUGE difference between allowing EvilBaddieCrimeDoers to blame their mis-deeds on their upbringing/income/race/whatever (which is charitably described as 'overzealous PC nonsense'), and acknowledging that these social factors do in fact exist.

once we have simple acknowledgement, we can begin to identify these factors, and then work on changing them.

we need to operate a low form of 'doublethink', holding the idea that, yes, in fact people are directly responsible for their actions (or else we couldn't lock no-one up, see :sherlock:), while also actively working on building a society that quite simply produces less criminals.

too many people are so wrapped up in 'cult of the individual' thinking to even consider the social causes of problems such as crime. they are to a large extent operating under one of the main capitalist lies, that "1,000 people working selfishly in their own self-interest will produce the most favourable outcome for those 1,000 as a whole". it seems so ridiculous as to be rejected out of hand, yet it is one of the main tenets of the capitalist thinking that we are subjected to from birth. we cannot make much progress until we completely and finally reject this.


while I will not totally disagree with the idea of the Labour government, at least on a very superficial level, encouraging the culture of 'blame your crime on something', there is a sadly overwhelming body of evidence that shows that right-wing, neo-liberal (uber-Keynesian) economic and social policy ALWAYS leads to greater socio-economic disparity, the grandaddy of all crime factors. if someone were to produce a chart of relative economic disparity and crime levels in NZ over the past 20 years, the results would be totally clear-cut.

in short, I'm a filthy communist and don't believe anything I say (but please do)

* in-tents and porpoises


/me is a Communist also, but a CLEAN communist, cos I had a shower this morning. So you must believe EVERYTHING I say .

Welcome fellow traveller , but please stay down wind.

(There is much truth in what he says BTW)

[Motu]

For those of us who grew up in an earlier age,an mentioned in the first post of Lou's it certainly seems a different world,murder was big news.I remember the Basset Rd machine gun murders,we were still talking about it in the 70s - Ron Jorgenson was a legend,and maybe...perhaps,in his time he was a ''better'' person than those doing far less time now for crimes far worse,after all,his was just a rather extravagant murder.I remember when some guys I went to school with (and as I later found out,may actualy be related to me,cuzzies) the guys who rolled an old man in Lagoon Drive Panmure,stabbing him 17 times with a screwdriver,but not killing him - I remember that was huge,a big thing,probably page 3 now.

And now,in the last say,six years I have lived in a couple of places where murders happened less than 100 metres from our house,hardly raises an eyebrow these days.You may be aware that I now live in Huntly....a friend of mine had his wife shot and killed here about 10 yrs ago,but I feel no malice around me.....I let my kids play in the park during the day without too much supervision,as we can see them from the house....and yet we visit and are visited by my daughter 100mts away in the car when it's dark,I find that very annoying,that I am ''scared'' of my own wellbeing and that of my family - it never used to be this way.....believe it or not.

[SixPackBack]

My humble opinion the death penalty, simple; no arguement, you do it you die.
An added benifit is the positive results to Darwinism. Removal of the negative genes benifits future mankind, making the likelyhood of this type of antisocial behaviour over time less likely.
Line them up, i will gladly deal with them.We should not be 'thinking' about the death penalty but using it widely.