Pink Batts vs Insulation blanket material

[Oakie]

Looking at insulating our ceiling ... approx 90sqm. Have been quoted $2500 for a blanket product (polyester I think) that goes over everything as opposed to Pink Batts which fit between the timber things.

Anyone got any experience with how these two products measure up against each other? Haven't been able to find any NZ comparisons.

[skippa1]

Blanket, if you do between the trusses, it is recommended you blanket over top anyway

[eldog]

http://www.roof.co.nz/uploads/sidebar-links/RoofingCOP_2013-03_(1).pdf

section 4.7

maybe the link is broken but you should search for the NZ code of practice for roofing.
Definitely look at the higher R values which are a minimum for Sth Is.

cover between the joists and blanket over the top of the joints to prevent heat loss thru the timber.
Cover to the outside wall of the house if you can.

Look also at what type of light fittings you have, see if you can change them (if they are down lights) to the newer LED coverable type. Otherwise the insulation has to be cut away from the light fittings and transformers.

I may have some terminology wrong but it will pay to go for better options.
The installer can cut you some extra pieces so you could fill in the gaps if you change your light fittings later (I am assuming you have downlights, not the std lightbulb)

I have an attached garage and plan on insulating that as well as I feel it is dragging out the heat.
the insulation guy who has quoted me thought this was a prudent move (even though it gave him more $)- I know of another house which is well insulated in all areas, floor, walls, roof except the garage - the temp difference is really noticeable.

But your main decision will depend on how long you plan on staying there.....

I am sure there are a few KB members who know a great deal more on the subject.

Look into lifetime of insulation and settlement etc

I am currently looking at a heat pump install to augment the insulation work I plan to do.

[jellywrestler]

http://www.roof.co.nz/uploads/sidebar-links/RoofingCOP_2013-03_(1).pdf



Look also at what type of light fittings you have, see if you can change them (if they are down lights) to the newer LED coverable type. Otherwise the insulation has to be cut away from the light fittings and transformers.


not entirely correct, thee are bucket typ covers that can go over the older downlights so insulation can go over the top, also newer led 'coverable' ones as you mention, need to be checked as to what there status of insulation surrounding it is to be, just because it's a new led doesn't mean it can be covered.

[BMWST?]

http://www.roof.co.nz/uploads/sidebar-links/RoofingCOP_2013-03_(1).pdf

section 4.7

maybe the link is broken but you should search for the NZ code of practice for roofing.
Definitely look at the higher R values which are a minimum for Sth Is.

cover between the joists and blanket over the top of the joints to prevent heat loss thru the timber.
Cover to the outside wall of the house if you can.

Look also at what type of light fittings you have, see if you can change them (if they are down lights) to the newer LED coverable type. Otherwise the insulation has to be cut away from the light fittings and transformers.

I may have some terminology wrong but it will pay to go for better options.
The installer can cut you some extra pieces so you could fill in the gaps if you change your light fittings later (I am assuming you have downlights, not the std lightbulb)

I have an attached garage and plan on insulating that as well as I feel it is dragging out the heat.
the insulation guy who has quoted me thought this was a prudent move (even though it gave him more $)- I know of another house which is well insulated in all areas, floor, walls, roof except the garage - the temp difference is really noticeable.

But your main decision will depend on how long you plan on staying there.....

I am sure there are a few KB members who know a great deal more on the subject.

Look into lifetime of insulation and settlement etc

I am currently looking at a heat pump install to augment the insulation work I plan to do.
depending on the age of the house the garage itself may not be insulated but the wall between the house and the garage should be

[AllanB]

depending on the age of the house the garage itself may not be insulated but the wall between the house and the garage should be

Requirement is for the wall between to be insulated and not the attached garage external walls or roof. Fucking stupid arse dumb fuck in Wellington somewhere making this rule. A house costs how many hundreds of thousands to build yet the boffins say it is OK to skimp on a couple grand tops on a attached garage.

I installed some r3 or something in the roof of my attached garage - made a huge difference in the summer (cooler) and currently a lot warmer. I should have gone for a higher rating but I was being a tight bastard at the time. Oh well always a top-up or blanket to add when funds allow.

[jellywrestler]

Requirement is for the wall between to be insulated and not the attached garage external walls or roof. Fucking stupid arse dumb fuck in Wellington somewhere making this rule. A house costs how many hundreds of thousands to build yet the boffins say it is OK to skimp on a couple grand tops on a attached garage.

I installed some r3 or something in the roof of my attached garage - made a huge difference in the summer (cooler) and currently a lot warmer. I should have gone for a higher rating but I was being a tight bastard at the time. Oh well always a top-up or blanket to add when funds allow.

i did my house with off cuts from trademe, half bales etc, cost less and i don't care that there's differnet types, noone looks in there except me

[Akzle]

greenstuf>pinkbatts. Properly done between the timber is fine, only if you do a half arse job that you'd need a blankie over the top.
Also need to batten your wiring and stuff.

[eldog]

not entirely correct, thee are bucket typ covers that can go over the older downlights so insulation can go over the top, also newer led 'coverable' ones as you mention, need to be checked as to what there status of insulation surrounding it is to be, just because it's a new led doesn't mean it can be covered.

I didn't know about the covers....

Yes check suitability of what you have, not all new devices can be covered - some aren't, rated it pays to check.

At least it will give the OP something to think about.

I was up in my roof a while back, the amount of air coming through the downlights I have is quite a lot.

[eldog]

depending on the age of the house the garage itself may not be insulated but the wall between the house and the garage should be

house is 1978
I doubt it is insulated
concrete slab

going to insulate the roof with Sth Is recommened insulation even though I live in Akl, will be cheaper in the long run

current insulation has slumped down, so looking at getting it back to current std

[haydes55]

Old style down lights let out more heat than opening a window. An average house can have 30 down lights, all needing to let air through them and a gap to the insulation.

Just go for the highest R value. Get the professionals to install it. If you do it yourself, don't block the air path to the soffit. Mould and moisture in the roof cavity causes loads of issues.

[jellywrestler]

I didn't know about the covers....

Yes check suitability of what you have, not all new devices can be covered - some aren't, rated it pays to check.

At least it will give the OP something to think about.

I was up in my roof a while back, the amount of air coming through the downlights I have is quite a lot.

modern downlights carefully selected will go into the old holes, some have clearances up to 150mm from timber, to the side and above, often when the previous ones were installed they didn't care about clearances to timber, so not all new lights will go in. the older ones were generally 50watt, the new around 9 -12 so pay for themselves by being around six times more efficient, and have a better spread of light too. 6 halogen downlights will use a unit in 3 hrs around 30 cents, six led's will use the same power over 18 hours so you can work out payback time, so if you're spending a bit on insulation think about putting new downlights in, especially in lounges where they are on a lot and will pay for themselves over time, toilets hallways and bathrooms are usually not on long so the power savings while there take sometime to recover
look for downlights with 0 scb and 0 hcb measurements (hcb and scb are clearance to building elements -timber) be careful they all should have a mic rating this is the minium insulation clearance so as some say the insulation can go right over them, yes but there are some clearances.

[Erelyes]

current insulation has slumped down, so looking at getting it back to current std

Then blankie over the top is the go.
Install is also more straightforward - and less cuts = less gaps. A lot of the benefit in batts depends on the quality of install.

New LEDS are a shizload better than old downlights. They are not airtight, but the cost of making them so (http://www.downlightatticseal.com/) (I found) outstripped the benefit. Mainly cos noone really makes the right kind of thing in NZ, and we're relatively ignorant to the benefits of airtightness in a living space.

New LEDs will have a massively higher cost/benefit than new insulation. If you have the old cans, get rid of them, they're evil. Ideally you want IC-F rated LED's.

[jellywrestler]

Then blankie over the top is the go.
Install is also more straightforward - and less cuts = less gaps. A lot of the benefit in batts depends on the quality of install.

New LEDS are a shizload better than old downlights. They are not airtight, but the cost of making them so (http://www.downlightatticseal.com/) (I found) outstripped the benefit. Mainly cos noone really makes the right kind of thing in NZ, and we're relatively ignorant to the benefits of airtightness in a living space.

New LEDs will have a massively higher cost/benefit than new insulation. If you have the old cans, get rid of them, they're evil. Ideally you want IC-F rated LED's.

new led downlights are airtight, unless you're using gimbal ones but even they have very small airgaps. one thing the 50watt ones did is create a shitload of heat, with the airgap and thermal movement they literally sucked the air from the house as their hot air rose. ic-f a very small part of selecting the right units, the scb and hcb is the most important for retrofit, and with this if these ratings are zero they will be ic-f automatically. there are als differnt heat rated lights, and the insulation needs to be compatible with this, and certified, otherwise your insurance could be invalid. the buckets cost money, not as much as you link says in nz the only cost saving in using them is you don't need a sparky to install, although you are allowed to legally install downlights in your own home you live in

[Akzle]

Mainly cos noone really makes the right kind of thing in NZ, and we're relatively ignorant to the benefits of airtightness in a living space.


except it isnt. And if your shits air tight you building will always be a nett energy consumer to get the requisite (healthy) number of air changes.

Passive building design ftw.

[eldog]

Requirement is for the wall between to be insulated and not the attached garage external walls or roof. Fucking stupid arse dumb fuck in Wellington somewhere making this rule. A house costs how many hundreds of thousands to build yet the boffins say it is OK to skimp on a couple grand tops on a attached garage.

I installed some r3 or something in the roof of my attached garage - made a huge difference in the summer (cooler) and currently a lot warmer. I should have gone for a higher rating but I was being a tight bastard at the time. Oh well always a top-up or blanket to add when funds allow.

I would agree as that's what I plan to do.
Around the area I live quite a few have converted their garages in bedrooms


i did my house with off cuts from trademe, half bales etc, cost less and i don't care that there's differnet types, noone looks in there except me

you were lucky, I have to get up there to deal with the odd dead rodent
My plan is to replace the spouting adding in mesh(alli or stst if I can find some, not that plastic shit) to stop leaves and rodents


greenstuf>pinkbatts. Properly done between the timber is fine, only if you do a half arse job that you'd need a blankie over the top.
Also need to batten your wiring and stuff.

going for greenstuff with the higher R value

What do you mean batten your wiring and stuff?
(Originally read this as 'batter your wife and stuff')



Old style down lights let out more heat than opening a window. An average house can have 30 down lights, all needing to let air through them and a gap to the insulation.

Just go for the highest R value. Get the professionals to install it. If you do it yourself, don't block the air path to the soffit. Mould and moisture in the roof cavity causes loads of issues.

yep professional install AFTER the lights have been changed and rearranged in a few places, its lit in the weirdest locations


modern downlights carefully selected will go into the old holes, some have clearances up to 150mm from timber, to the side and above, often when the previous ones were installed they didn't care about clearances to timber, so not all new lights will go in. the older ones were generally 50watt, the new around 9 -12 so pay for themselves by being around six times more efficient, and have a better spread of light too. 6 halogen downlights will use a unit in 3 hrs around 30 cents, six led's will use the same power over 18 hours so you can work out payback time, so if you're spending a bit on insulation think about putting new downlights in, especially in lounges where they are on a lot and will pay for themselves over time, toilets hallways and bathrooms are usually not on long so the power savings while there take sometime to recover
look for downlights with 0 scb and 0 hcb measurements (hcb and scb are clearance to building elements -timber) be careful they all should have a mic rating this is the minium insulation clearance so as some say the insulation can go right over them, yes but there are some clearances.

when I brought the house all the light were 100W, brought tears to the eyes when at 2am you turned the lights (6) on in the kitchen=600 W FFS all I wanted was a drink.


Then blankie over the top is the go.
Install is also more straightforward - and less cuts = less gaps. A lot of the benefit in batts depends on the quality of install.

New LEDS are a shizload better than old downlights. They are not airtight, but the cost of making them so (http://www.downlightatticseal.com/) (I found) outstripped the benefit. Mainly cos noone really makes the right kind of thing in NZ, and we're relatively ignorant to the benefits of airtightness in a living space.

New LEDs will have a massively higher cost/benefit than new insulation. If you have the old cans, get rid of them, they're evil. Ideally you want IC-F rated LED's.

Changing them and rearranging some is the plan, just gotto find a supplier with dimmable ones that will fit.
Most likely Philips or some other named brand so the colours are consistent.
Some cheap ones the colours aren't the same


new led downlights are airtight, unless you're using gimbal ones but even they have very small airgaps. one thing the 50watt ones did is create a shitload of heat, with the airgap and thermal movement they literally sucked the air from the house as their hot air rose. ic-f a very small part of selecting the right units, the scb and hcb is the most important for retrofit, and with this if these ratings are zero they will be ic-f automatically. there are als differnt heat rated lights, and the insulation needs to be compatible with this, and certified, otherwise your insurance could be invalid. the buckets cost money, not as much as you link says in nz the only cost saving in using them is you don't need a sparky to install, although you are allowed to legally install downlights in your own home you live in

I have a couple of gimball old fashioned downlights, they do the job but ugly as.... and the little rodents can drop through them as well as roaches etc
I will check out the IC-f and scb and hcb as suggested thanks....
I want to do this whole job once and only once, just gotto get the sequence right



except it isnt. And if your shits air tight you building will always be a nett energy consumer to get the requisite (healthy) number of air changes.

Passive building design ftw.

Nah building definitely not air tight which is good.
want it rodent tight though.....
getting heat pump quotes too to see if that will help, with outside air (10%)
however haven't really had to have the fire or heaters on much the past couple of years

thanks for the info :drinknsin
Anyone with ideas on heat pumps..... maybe I should search first:bash:

[Akzle]

What do you mean batten your wiring and stuff?
(Originally read this as 'batter your wife and stuff')

you could do that...

New code requires wiring runs to be supported, ie, on battens, usually on top of insulfluff.

Old wiring was often just pulled the shortest route they could and either unsupported or "supported" by the ceiling panels.

[jellywrestler]

you could do that...

New code requires wiring runs to be supported, ie, on battens, usually on top of insulfluff.

Old wiring was often just pulled the shortest route they could and either unsupported or "supported" by the ceiling panels.

old code was properly supported, new says adequatly supported, everything within two meters of manhole, outside this everything except where there is less than 600m verticle roof space, so nowadays a lot is just laid there.
mainly to do with people storing stuff in their ceilings and moving around and kneeling on cables, we use to have to clip our cables every nine inches, my maggot used to get so itchy flopping it out all the time around the batts and folding it in half to use as a measure...
one thing to not is that often the switchboard has to be rerated if new insulation is going in, ie if the old power point wires were laid on top of insulation and you shove a blanket over it it's deemed to be fully surrounded and derated to 16 amps, old for lights was 10amps fully surrounded is 6 amps, even the insulation companies won't tell you this

[eldog]

you could do that...

New code requires wiring runs to be supported, ie, on battens, usually on top of insulfluff.

Old wiring was often just pulled the shortest route they could and either unsupported or "supported" by the ceiling panels.

IIRC the wiring is attached to the battens, but I need to look again.
The original wiring isn't too bad, its the newer wiring that's a bit ugly (I doubt a reg sparky did it)

Passive - yes I have some thermal curtains - some have curtains, some have none.

[eldog]

old code was properly supported, new says adequatly supported, everything within two meters of manhole, outside this everything except where there is less than 600m verticle roof space, so nowadays a lot is just laid there.
one thing to not is that often the switchboard has to be rerated if new insulation is going in, ie if the old power point wires were laid on top of insulation and you shove a blanket over it it's deemed to be fully surrounded and derated to 16 amps, old for lights was 10amps fully surrounded is 6 amps, even the insulation companies won't tell you this


:brick:Bugger, I did wonder

Now it looks like I will really need to get up in the roof this weekend FFS.

I am looking at adding a new manhole beside the switchboard (I can see a few cables will need to be added if I put 5 heat pumps in), it maybe a good thing, some of its a bit dodgy

nope no one is saying anything they just want to sell their shit

I will ask my sparky in the next few days.

[Moi]

... I am looking at adding a new manhole beside the switchboard (I can see a few cables will need to be added if I put 5 heat pumps in)...

Instead of a new manhole, why not an attic ladder?

If you're considering FIVE heat pumps, why not consider a proper central heating system? Perhaps a radiator system using heat pump transfer units [as used to heat swimming pools]... probably not much more expensive than five heat pumps...

[eldog]

Instead of a new manhole, why not an attic ladder?

If you're considering FIVE heat pumps, why not consider a proper central heating system? Perhaps a radiator system using heat pump transfer units [as used to heat swimming pools]... probably not much more expensive than five heat pumps...

I have been looking at Sellwood? attic stairs
trouble is switchboard is in the garage
not much room above it 3-4 feet IIRC (look again in the weekend)
the main part of the house theres more than 6ft in the centre its a 30 degree roof into a 12.5 degree roof at the edge (I know I measured it for the spouting replacement calc for down pipes)

I could put a set in the hallway, next to the rafter division to the garage.....

I am open to any suggestions(keep it clean you KBers)

I ask the heat pump salespeople to suggest systems.
I want to be able to:
switch off rooms
different temps/air flow
have some ability to circulate air (un heated/cooled) to keep the air moving at set periods of the day - say 1 minute every 1/2 hour
would like to bring in some outside fresh air 5-10% (I don't know what the international std is for this but I can find out)
Is it possible/worth it to use a heat transfer system to 'heat/cool' the exhaust/fresh air

maybe now that I have made a list I should go back to the heat pump salesman and get him to relook at what he proposes

I don't have any experience in heat/cooling but the info from KB is great

[jellywrestler]

I have been looking at Sellwood? attic stairs
trouble is switchboard is in the garage
not much room above it 3-4 feet IIRC (look again in the weekend)
the main part of the house theres more than 6ft in the centre its a 30 degree roof into a 12.5 degree roof at the edge (I know I measured it for the spouting replacement calc for down pipes)

I could put a set in the hallway, next to the rafter division to the garage.....

I am open to any suggestions(keep it clean you KBers)

I ask the heat pump salespeople to suggest systems.
I want to be able to:
switch off rooms
different temps/air flow
have some ability to circulate air (un heated/cooled) to keep the air moving at set periods of the day - say 1 minute every 1/2 hour
would like to bring in some outside fresh air 5-10% (I don't know what the international std is for this but I can find out)
Is it possible/worth it to use a heat transfer system to 'heat/cool' the exhaust/fresh air

maybe now that I have made a list I should go back to the heat pump salesman and get him to relook at what he proposes

I don't have any experience in heat/cooling but the info from KB is great

post the job on www.builderscrack.co.nz they'll come to you

[Swoop]

2K?
For insulation? You're being ripped off (charged the "going rate").

Throw a layer of Green Stuff over the top of the slumped shite that is there. As others have said, avoid downlights and do not encase wires in the insulation. Just lay them on top of the new stuff.
Top Tip: Avoid Batts. Itchy shit that is "sooo yesterday".


I bought a few bales off of BetradeMe (leftovers from builders jobs) and whacked them into the ceiling.

Top Tip #2: Winter is the BEST time to insulate, since the temperature in the roofspace is bearable compared to summer.



I am looking at adding a new manhole beside the switchboard (I can see a few cables will need to be added if I put 5 heat pumps in)

FIVE!!!????

Fuck off! Three is taking the piss (in the colder areas of the country).

[jellywrestler]

As others have said, avoid downlights and do not encase wires in the insulation. Just lay them on top of the new stuff.
Top Tip: Avoid Batts. Itchy shit that is "sooo yesterday".


.

what's the point in insulating when you leave large gaps, the old downlights run hot and the thermal movement of the air over th bulbs means it's like a small fan running, many small fans throughout the house.
also old batts, just a bit of talcum powder on the body will help with this shit, it won't stick to ya and itch

[Swoop]

what's the point in insulating when you leave large gaps, the old downlights run hot and the thermal movement of the air over th bulbs means it's like a small fan running, many small fans throughout the house.

Them's the regs. Downlights need a gap OR a tin-can covering it.

[Akzle]

listen to that guy. Im just an enthusiastic amateur.

Passive is with regard to building design. Done properly a building can require 5/8ths of fuckall, or in fact nothing, to maintain livable temperature. Bit late by the time you retrofit.

Heat exchanger ftw.

[eldog]

lPassive is with regard to building design. Done properly a building can require 5/8ths of fuckall, or in fact nothing, to maintain livable temperature. Bit late by the time you retrofit.

Heat exchanger ftw.

Unfortunately it's a retrofit, couldn't find another house that meets my current criteria.

current house is not to bad IMO

but in summer with no wind it's too hot to sleep and the mozzies are a bastard so try to keep windows open during the day while they don't seem to be about, closed at night.

[eldog]

Top Tip #2: Winter is the BEST time to insulate, since the temperature in the roofspace is bearable compared to summer.

FIVE!!!????

Fuck off! Three is taking the piss (in the colder areas of the country).

In summer the inside the roof of my house is a sauna, great for dead things

I prefer independent systems as each room will be inhabited by mutant Martian bikers:cool:

[jellywrestler]

and do not encase wires in the insulation. Just lay them on top of the new stuff.
.

there's not often the length to do that

[Ocean1]

Them's the regs. Downlights need a gap OR a tin-can covering it.

Wanted to replace the downlight fittings in the new place. Climbed up and had a look around and found most fittings didn't comply with the "50mm from timber" rule. Dunno if that was the rule when it was built a dozen years ago, but at least a couple of the fittings are actually cut into the rafter ties.

Can't install new fittings in the current locations because that won't comply, but I really don't want to fill the existing holes and cut new ones...

Think I'll just leave the existing fittings, use remote powered LEDs and be done with it.

[eldog]

leave the existing fittings, use remote powered LEDs

Remote powered LEDs?

[Ocean1]

Remote powered LEDs?

Didn't make much sense did it?

What I meant was that the choice seemed to be to either replace the existing fittings with LED fittings with remote power source, (means the heat source is a couple of feet away from the fitting which you can hang from a rafter above the light) or keep the existing fittings and just use integrated LED bulbs, (power source built in) in the existing fittings.

Remote powered LED fitting is a better option, but as a new install it wouldn't meet current reg's. And I'm not sure if you get to insulate over the remote powered light fitting anyway.

[eldog]

Didn't make much sense did it?

What I meant was that the choice seemed to be to either replace the existing fittings with LED fittings with remote power source, (means the heat source is a couple of feet away from the fitting which you can hang from a rafter above the light) or keep the existing fittings and just use integrated LED bulbs, (power source built in) in the existing fittings.

Remote powered LED fitting is a better option, but as a new install it wouldn't meet current reg's. And I'm not sure if you get to insulate over the remote powered light fitting anyway.

Food of thought.....

[russd7]

Food of thought.....

friend has an LED camping light with a remote control.

unfortunately i have attended a house fire caused by LED down light, luckily the house owner had enough for thought to poke the fitting up and let a couple of fire extinguishers go in the ceiling space.

[eldog]

friend has an LED camping light with a remote control.

unfortunately i have attended a house fire caused by LED down light, luckily the house owner had enough for thought to poke the fitting up and let a couple of fire extinguishers go in the ceiling space.

Could buy a dozen camp LED lights and hang them from the ceiling.:nya:

Sounds serious that fire could have been far worse.

Thats why I would only be looking at brand name LED as a source and ones that meet the standard. Most likely Philips they have a European standard to meet too which I hope is more stringent than the NZ one.

The insulation guy actually pointed out to me that I would need to upgrade the lighting to get the real benefit of the insulation. Otherwise it would be just pissing in the wind. He was also impressed that I was looking at insulating the garage without being prompted.

[russd7]

Could buy a dozen camp LED lights and hang them from the ceiling.:nya:

Sounds serious that fire could have been far worse.

Thats why I would only be looking at brand name LED as a source and ones that meet the standard. Most likely Philips they have a European standard to meet too which I hope is more stringent than the NZ one.

The insulation guy actually pointed out to me that I would need to upgrade the lighting to get the real benefit of the insulation. Otherwise it would be just pissing in the wind. He was also impressed that I was looking at insulating the garage without being prompted.

it was a few year ago and brand name but early ones. but very surprizing how much heat comes from the transformers

[eldog]

Initially was surprised with the amount of heat generated by LED lights.

could mount light in downlights and if it has a transformer(power source) attach to a rafter(hang it if that's a better option for fire etc) and mount a power point so it can be unplugged or tested elsewhere.

[russd7]

Initially was surprised with the amount of heat generated by LED lights.

could mount light in downlights and if it has a transformer(power source) attach to a rafter(hang it if that's a better option for fire etc) and mount a power point so it can be unplugged or tested elsewhere.

talk to ya sparky, they should know what is required.

[Akzle]

most halo downlights will have a transformer. except the 240vac gu10s, which are colossally inefficient.
LEDs require a (usually) 12v transformer/driver. sometimes the transformer is remote from the driver, others no.

at any rate. dont be a pussy. put in chandaliérs.

[eldog]

most halo downlights will have a transformer. except the 240vac gu10s, which are colossally inefficient.
LEDs require a (usually) 12v transformer/driver. sometimes the transformer is remote from the driver, others no.

at any rate. dont be a pussy. put in chandaliérs.
Current ones are 240 vac ones, originally with 100 w bulbs, now with 75 w energy ones. Slow start/warm up ok in the middle of the night

[jellywrestler]

Wanted to replace the downlight fittings in the new place. Climbed up and had a look around and found most fittings didn't comply with the "50mm from timber" rule. Dunno if that was the rule when it was built a dozen years ago, but at least a couple of the fittings are actually cut into the rafter ties.

Can't install new fittings in the current locations because that won't comply, but I really don't want to fill the existing holes and cut new ones...

Think I'll just leave the existing fittings, use remote powered LEDs and be done with it.

poppy cock, there was never a 50mm rule for downlights, there are some whose manufacturers instructions now state 50mm (scb rating) but more and more they are become 0 SCB and HCB which means they can be installed right in timber i install d/l's often as i'm a sparky, pm me as to what to look for

[jellywrestler]

. And I'm not sure if you get to insulate over the remote powered light fitting anyway.

most of them require the power supply box to be above the insulation, i just punch a hole through and thread it up to it, then it closes back on itself

[jellywrestler]

Most likely Philips they have a European standard to meet too which I hope is more stringent than the NZ one.

.

been a sparky for 37 years, used to rely on philips as a reputable brand, now i actively stay well clear of anything especially their light bulbs.....
as a self employed sparky i had too many failures of their shit that cost me money

[BMWST?]

I have been looking at Sellwood? attic stairs
trouble is switchboard is in the garage
not much room above it 3-4 feet IIRC (look again in the weekend)
the main part of the house theres more than 6ft in the centre its a 30 degree roof into a 12.5 degree roof at the edge (I know I measured it for the spouting replacement calc for down pipes)

I could put a set in the hallway, next to the rafter division to the garage.....

I am open to any suggestions(keep it clean you KBers)

I ask the heat pump salespeople to suggest systems.
I want to be able to:
switch off rooms
different temps/air flow
have some ability to circulate air (un heated/cooled) to keep the air moving at set periods of the day - say 1 minute every 1/2 hour
would like to bring in some outside fresh air 5-10% (I don't know what the international std is for this but I can find out)
Is it possible/worth it to use a heat transfer system to 'heat/cool' the exhaust/fresh air

maybe now that I have made a list I should go back to the heat pump salesman and get him to relook at what he proposes

I don't have any experience in heat/cooling but the info from KB is great

what you are asking for is a whole lot more than a heat pump.A heat pump is just a airconditioning unit that can heat or cool.It heats or cools the air around it.EDIT.
you can run an indor unit just as a fan to move the air around,and you can use them as a dehumidifier only ,but they dehumidify anyway.
You can have one large outdoor unit with several indoor units,but you wont get a good price because all the sales volume is in matched pair units.You could have a single central unit in the ceiling with ducts to different areas and a couple of return ducts,i dont know how much control each room would have.
A seperate ventilation system will provide you with air changes,fresh air etc(can have a "switched" supply ie roof space air or outsie air) ,and your improved insulation will help with the heat build up in summer,and or make it more efficient to use the heat pumps to cool the place down.

[eldog]

what you are asking for is a whole lot more than a heat pump
A seperate ventilation system will provide you with air changes,fresh air etc(can have a "switched" supply ie roof space air or outsie air) ,and your improved insulation will help with the heat build up in summer,and or make it more efficient to use the heat pumps to cool the place down.

I figured what I am asking for is much more than a heat pump.
The first salesman was quite laid back but maybe I didn't communicate properly.
I wasn't sure what to say I wanted......

I wanted to see if they would go cheap arse or proper

I definitely want proper - its to setup for the future.
after the biking malarcky has faded away

[eldog]

been a sparky for 37 years, used to rely on philips as a reputable brand, now i actively stay well clear of anything especially their light bulbs.....
as a self employed sparky i had too many failures of their shit that cost me money

I would say Philips USED to be a good brand esp for lights, other technology they were stodgy like HP. Reliable but not quite cutting edge.

I have spoken to their LED sales guy a while back (2 years - he sells the big LED stuff)- he seemed to know his shit.
I will make an enquiry and see what he suggests

I have seen cheap LED stuff not that impressed once you look inside the frame etc.

but its good to have info from people who actually use this stuff, rather than the greasy salesperson.

[Ocean1]

poppy cock, there was never a 50mm rule for downlights, there are some whose manufacturers instructions now state 50mm (scb rating) but more and more they are become 0 SCB and HCB which means they can be installed right in timber i install d/l's often as i'm a sparky, pm me as to what to look for

Oh, OK, good news. I was just going from the waffle on the box of a few sample fittings I got from Advanced Electrical.

Might talk further when the time comes, cheers.

[eldog]

Oh, OK, good news. I was just going from the waffle on the box cheers.

like house advertising, its what not listed that you should look at.

If it shows only interior shots - the outside is shit

and NZ COP is different from other countries

[jellywrestler]

I would say Philips USED to be a good brand esp for lights, other technology they were stodgy like HP. Reliable but not quite cutting edge.

I have spoken to their LED sales guy a while back (2 years - he sells the big LED stuff)- he seemed to know his shit.
I will make an enquiry and see what he suggests

I have seen cheap LED stuff not that impressed once you look inside the frame etc.

but its good to have info from people who actually use this stuff, rather than the greasy salesperson.

one issue with philpis is they cnage their products too often, do half a house this year, go back next to get matching fittings and they're no longer available. their flour lights can't be screwed up at 600mm between holes, without modification, nz timber and ceiling tiles are at 600mm, how many people at head office did that go in front of and still get through, demonstrates the lack of awareness to our needs, and when i talked to the rep about this he told me to just add 1/2 hr to the job for each fitting, really? nah i'll use another brand thanks

[eldog]

one issue with philpis is they cnage their products too often, do half a house this year, go back next to get matching fittings and they're no longer available. their flour lights can't be screwed up at 600mm between holes, without modification, nz timber and ceiling tiles are at 600mm, how many people at head office did that go in front of and still get through, demonstrates the lack of awareness to our needs, and when i talked to the rep about this he told me to just add 1/2 hr to the job for each fitting, really? nah i'll use another brand thanks

sounds like sales people(looking for an easy dollar- lazy) running the company rather than engineers and sparkys (hands on people)

Yes I would use another product if that's the case.
Unfortunately I HAVE to work for people like that.

Working very hard to get another couple of customers who will replace them - on track for that :)

[Erelyes]

except it isnt. And if your shits air tight you building will always be a nett energy consumer to get the requisite (healthy) number of air changes.

Passive building design ftw.

If you're meaning passive as in 'passive house', they generally require heat recovery from ventilation.

If you mean passive ventilation, it's funny how much 'passive' buildings require continual active involvement, fucking about with windows and what not. And they might work great in warmer climates, yet when it gets to be 0 degrees outside, all of a sudden your passive ventilation makes the place a fuckin icebox.

Especially down South, it's easier to just chuck a heat-recovery system in. Instead of fucking about opening windows after a shower, (or install a solitary bathroom fan - fuck that) we do absolutely nothing, and the heat recovery system takes care of the moisture. You can even set it up to monitor the temp of the hot water pipes to your bathroom and crank the system up for a short period automatically (we didn't bother).

'Sides, how does the running cost of a fan (80-200w in our case depending on speed) compare with the increased heating required to bring the outside air up to the same as heat-recovered air? Considering that Code requires/recommends, what, 0.35ACH as a 'healthy' number? The amount of energy you're recovering becomes pretty attractive.

[Akzle]

If you're meaning passive as in 'passive house', they generally require heat recovery from ventilation.

If you mean passive ventilation, it's funny how much 'passive' buildings require continual active involvement, fucking about with windows and what not. And they might work great in warmer climates, yet when it gets to be 0 degrees outside, all of a sudden your passive ventilation makes the place a fuckin icebox.

Especially down South, it's easier to just chuck a heat-recovery system in. Instead of fucking about opening windows after a shower, (or install a solitary bathroom fan - fuck that) we do absolutely nothing, and the heat recovery system takes care of the moisture. You can even set it up to monitor the temp of the hot water pipes to your bathroom and crank the system up for a short period automatically (we didn't bother).

'Sides, how does the running cost of a fan (80-200w in our case depending on speed) compare with the increased heating required to bring the outside air up to the same as heat-recovered air? Considering that Code requires/recommends, what, 0.35ACH as a 'healthy' number? The amount of energy you're recovering becomes pretty attractive.

no i mean passive building design. Have a turn on earth ships and the like. Teepees are good too. Done well enough id say even doors/opening windows are redundant.

And they generally dont need any "recovery", certainly not active and ongoing and electrical recovery.

[BMWST?]

I figured what I am asking for is much more than a heat pump.
The first salesman was quite laid back but maybe I didn't communicate properly.
I wasn't sure what to say I wanted......

I wanted to see if they would go cheap arse or proper

I definitely want proper - its to setup for the future.
after the biking malarcky has faded away
well good luck.When i was investigating heat pumps,vent systems and the like it became immediately apparent that at least half the people i talked to knew less than me with a few hours research on teh interwebs.Its also hard to get any meaningful comparisons as the heat pump salesman wont tell you that a pellet burner is better or visa versa.
Our first step was a ventilation system,and it made a huge difference.We had bad condensation in the winter,the ventilation system cured that in a couple of days!

[Oakie]

Our first step was a ventilation system,and it made a huge difference.We had bad condensation in the winter,the ventilation system cured that in a couple of days!

That was our experience too with our DVS. From streaming windows to dry in just one night. Amazing really.

[SPman]

..........................., outside this everything except where there is less than 600m verticle roof space, so nowadays a lot is just laid there.
mainly to do with people storing stuff in their ceilings.........................

you can store a shit load of stuff in 600m of roof space.........:bleh:

[mikedonalds]

polyester insulation batts (https://www.3dwallboards.com/products/polyester-insulation-batts/) is the best. The polyester sound insulation layer can be neatly cut with a serrated knife or scissors. Unlike glass fiber insulation material so dangerous, it needs a full set of protective equipment.

[Laava]

polyester insulation batts (https://www.3dwallboards.com/products/polyester-insulation-batts/) is the best. The polyester sound insulation layer can be neatly cut with a serrated knife or scissors. Unlike glass fiber insulation material so dangerous, it needs a full set of protective equipment.

Hahahahahaha! You signed up to a motorbike forum to talk about insulation! What a fucken winner!