Cliffhanger investigation

[Paul in NZ]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/83658730/motorcycle-hillclimb-deaths-investigated-by-coroner

Hmm - two very sad events being investigated by the Coroner... Not sure where this will end..

[sidecar bob]

Didn't know Malcom, but wharfy was a pretty good bugger.

[jellywrestler]

Didn't know Malcom, but wharfy was a pretty good bugger.

both new the risks and wharfy particularly was an experienced racer, malcolm wasn't far behind either.

[Drew]

Neither were fast riders. I'll never understand how they crashed o that corner.

What the fuck is Tuckerman chiming in for? Vacant old cunt has never had anything to do with the Cliffhanger, aND isn't even an MNZ official as far as I know.

[pritch]

What the fuck is Tuckerman chiming in for? Vacant old cunt has never had anything to do with the Cliffhanger, aND isn't even an MNZ official as far as I know.

He is presumably inspired by Andy Warhol's prediction that in the future everybody will be famous for fifteen minutes? That might be his shot at it. :whistle:

[Drew]

It was an MNZ event at one point too.

[Maha]

Neither were fast riders. I'll never understand how they crashed o that corner.

What the fuck is Tuckerman chiming in for? Vacant old cunt has never had anything to do with the Cliffhanger, aND isn't even an MNZ official as far as I know.

Tuckerman aside...

Ian James, course steward for the Cliffhanger race, said ''it was a case of very experienced riders making errors of judgment''.

Constable Glenn Marshall of the Wellington crash unit investigated both deaths said ''Waugh could not negotiate the corner at the speed he was going and the line he had taken. The road was not suitable to the speed involved between 188kmh and 218kmh''

He said ''Foster was probably travelling at 178kmh on his Ducati motorcycle when he failed to take the moderate, He was riding at or near the limit of his ability''

[Kickaha]

Constable Glenn Marshall of the Wellington crash unit investigated both deaths said ''Waugh could not negotiate the corner at the speed he was going and the line he had taken. The road was not suitable to the speed involved between 188kmh and 218kmh''

He said ''Foster was probably travelling at 178kmh on his Ducati motorcycle when he failed to take the moderate, He was riding at or near the limit of his ability''

Constable Glenn Marshall sounds like a muppet

[Drew]

It's a 200+k bend. Back one gear from the limiter in top and pin it through the turn.

[sidecar bob]

It's a 200+k bend. Back one gear from the limiter in top and pin it through the turn.

While wharfy was inarguably a top bloke, it had never occurred to me that he was "very expierenced" he was more an enthusiastic novice. Not knocking him, just that the coroner probably should not have been shielded from the truth.
Can't/won't comment on the other fella, as I have no recollection of ever meeting him or observing his skill level.

[Drew]

While wharfy was inarguably a top bloke, it had never occurred to me that he was "very expierenced" he was more an enthusiastic novice. Not knocking him, just that the coroner probably should not have been shielded from the truth.
Can't/won't comment on the other fella, as I have no recollection of ever meeting him or observing his skill level.
Neither of them were hard chargers. They were both pretty slow.

[sidecar bob]

Neither of them were hard chargers. They were both pretty slow.

During the last three plus decades I have been around road racing, I have observed that most fatalities have occurred in the last third of the field.
That puts you & kickaha in a high risk group.

[mossy1200]

Its an odd world. People role the dice everyday with a probability of a terrible outcome but the minute someone has introduced some control measures the outcome becomes overly scrutinized and a blame game begins.
Living is dangerous. Your only safe when you are no longer living.

[merv]

The Coroner looks at fatalities so it isn't like he is singling this event out really so don't read too much into this.

[Drew]

During the last three plus decades I have been around road racing, I have observed that most fatalities have occurred in the last third of the field.
That puts you & kickaha in a high risk group.

Come to the Cliffhanger next year, see how that works out for ya.

[sidecar bob]

Come to the Cliffhanger next year, see how that works out for ya.

Hadn't you noticed that I don't do my own riding these days?;)
I'd rather leave it to someone that has the required reaction time for the task at hand.
People over 50 shouldn't kid themselves that they still have the goods, it declines a little & you need to recognise this. Notice the ages of both these gentlemen?

[Madness]

It's a 200+k bend. Back one gear from the limiter in top and pin it through the turn.

Is it this one?

[Drew]

Is it this one?

Nope. Wrong road I think.

[Drew]

Hadn't you noticed that I don't do my own riding these days?;)
I'd rather leave it to someone that has the required reaction time for the task at hand.
People over 50 shouldn't kid themselves that they still have the goods, it declines a little & you need to recognise this. Notice the ages of both these gentlemen?
Bring the chair.

[Grumph]

During the last three plus decades I have been around road racing, I have observed that most fatalities have occurred in the last third of the field.

This is generally true in my experience too. Guys who are trying just that little harder than they should.

More amusingly, it's this segment of the field where most of the cheating occurs also....

[jellywrestler]

While wharfy was inarguably a top bloke, it had never occurred to me that he was "very expierenced" he was more an enthusiastic novice. Not knocking him, just that the coroner probably should not have been shielded from the truth.
Can't/won't comment on the other fella, as I have no recollection of ever meeting him or observing his skill level.

compared to some of the other competitors who rode that and only that event, there wharfy had done a lot of riding, he was never going to win anything these days though

[jellywrestler]

Neither of them were hard chargers. They were both pretty slow.

hope you'll be able to ride as fast as them at their ages Drewpy.

[racer40]

Hadn't you noticed that I don't do my own riding these days?;)
I'd rather leave it to someone that has the required reaction time for the task at hand.
People over 50 shouldn't kid themselves that they still have the goods, it declines a little & you need to recognise this. Notice the ages of both these gentlemen?

lucky, i am only 49

[husaberg]

Neither were fast riders. I'll never understand how they crashed o that corner.

What the fuck is Tuckerman chiming in for? Vacant old cunt has never had anything to do with the Cliffhanger, aND isn't even an MNZ official as far as I know.

Which is likely why he is chiming in.
The angle will likely be clearly dangerous (as MNZ doesn't get any permit money in coffers from the event.)
They will overlook their own not so perfect safety record, plus the fact that motorsport is inherently dangerous.
All the competitors know and accept this prior to riding.

[Drew]

hope you'll be able to ride as fast as them at their ages Drewpy.

They were both well older than I am now, when they started racing.

I wasn't having a dig at them.

[pritch]

Neither of them were hard chargers. They were both pretty slow.

When their skill level is being discussed in court it's compared to the average person, not the average racer.

Unless the cop was an experienced racer he would be completely out of his depth giving evidence on that, if he isn't already.

[Drew]

When their skill level is being discussed in court it's compared to the average person, not the average racer.

Unless the cop was an experienced racer he would be completely out of his depth giving evidence on that, if he isn't already.Yeah, I suppose you're right.

It's pretty far from ideal, that the person correlating the investigation isn't getting the right information.

[Kickaha]

Unless the cop was an experienced racer he would be completely out of his depth giving evidence on that, if he isn't already.

If you attend one of those courts you can dispute what they're saying

[sidecar bob]

lucky, i am only 49

You're the only one that doesn't know you're past it.:bleh:

[MrMarko]

More marshalls, more safety, more control over whose on track?

What is this garbage.

It's a bloodey road course, if i enter it and go write myself off they should be throwing me in the coroners van and going ahh well he knew the risk of the event.

End of.

It's as simple as that.

[mr bucketracer]

While wharfy was inarguably a top bloke, it had never occurred to me that he was "very expierenced" he was more an enthusiastic novice. Not knocking him, just that the coroner probably should not have been shielded from the truth.
Can't/won't comment on the other fella, as I have no recollection of ever meeting him or observing his skill level.agree with this , Malcom was a midpack clubman rider , top guy , but in my view you should be doing certian times on tracks before going up levels if you know what i'm saying , thats why i race buckets now

[Grumph]

More marshalls, more safety, more control over whose on track?

What is this garbage.

It's a bloodey road course, if i enter it and go write myself off they should be throwing me in the coroners van and going ahh well he knew the risk of the event.

End of.

It's as simple as that.


agree with this , Malcom was a midpack clubman rider , top guy , but in my view you should be doing certian times on tracks before going up levels if you know what i'm saying , thats why i race buckets now

Road course - yes, but did the organisers ask for the same as MNZ - at least 3 circuit meetings before entering ?
And of course we're in the nanny state now. Safety a priority as the dreaded word "liability" is likely to come up.

Graduated licences have been talked about for years. If they do come in, the system will cost more so expect licence costs to go even higher....

[Maha]

More marshalls, more safety, more control over whose on track?

What is this garbage.

It's a bloodey road course, if i enter it and go write myself off they should be throwing me in the coroners van and going ahh well he knew the risk of the event.

End of.

It's as simple as that.

Pretty much ... ''it was a case of very experienced riders making errors of judgment''. A large percentage of motorcycle deaths on a track or road can be attributed to those few words.

[jellywrestler]

If you attend one of those courts you can dispute what they're saying

when i did following a fatality at manfield i had to draw pictures to explain the differnece between wets and slicks, the judge didn't know the function of tread. then the ambulance officers claimed they were delayed from leaving the track cause i was running around to get some dry clothes and his wallet etc for the injured riders son, this was utter bullshit as i had told him i would get this stuff and get it to him at the hospital, when i asked to speak again to correct this i was not allowed, despite being a formal witness.

it may have changed since though

[Paul in NZ]

I have a feeling that this will be heading towards a recommendation that will make future events there either pointless or super expensive.

I have huge respect to anyone whole enters these events and freely admit to have never been competent enough to consider it myself. But find it all a bit odd... 2 deaths is 2 too many of course BUT a drop in the bucket compared to many other things (like on farm quads, forestry, alcohol or tobacco) but investigate they have... It will be interested to see where this goes.

Cheers

[pritch]

Before this hearing became news I had been noticing some findings of Coroner's courts in the paper. from time to time They tend to have 20/20 hindsight and even if it was a freak accident, but some i was not dotted, or t not crossed, they will make a recommendation. Some of these recommendations verge on being completely farcical. Maybe somebody should tell them that it isn't necessary that they make a recommendation every single time?

Instead of a coat of arms or similar over their head they could have a sign, "Sometimes shit happens".

[sidecar bob]

Before this hearing became news I had been noticing some findings of Coroner's courts in the paper. from time to time They tend to have 20/20 hindsight and even if it was a freak accident, but some i was not dotted, or t not crossed, they will make a recommendation. Some of these recommendations verge on being completely farcical. Maybe somebody should tell them that it isn't necessary that they make a recommendation every single time?

Instead of a coat of arms or similar over their head they could have a sign, "Sometimes shit happens".

They are merely recommendations that if carried out, would prevent a repeat of said fatality.
They are seldom turned into law or vigoursly enforced.

[Kickaha]

when i asked to speak again to correct this i was not allowed, despite being a formal witness.

it may have changed since though

Dispute may not have been quite correct, but in this instance it also related to tyres, compounds, treaded vs slicks in relation their estimates on corner speeds

[MD]

Constable Glenn Marshall sounds like a muppet

Have to disagree. Having ridden in the Hillclimb event numerous times. Having been on track with Malcolm, ridden on road with him I'd say the Cops estimated speed and assessment of what most probably happened was spot on for the pace Malcolm rode.

Look how much faster Jay Lawrence did it on his race Zed, 284km on his dial seconds before entering those fast curves. The rest of us mere mortals on 1000cc road spec bikes/tyres would be in the range from 190-230kph

Like Drew said he was not a hard charger, just a nice Guy out for a speed thrill, usually riding well within his limits. I was chatting to Malcolm 20 minutes before he died. Happy as ever. I also find it hard to comprehend how he lost it on that spot?

Also, we can't expect the Police to be experts in all fields, which their job demands they investigate. They can only do their best on the information available to them. If a bulldozer crashed down a bank should Mr Plod be an expert in bulldozer driving, handling, capability, manoeuvrability? A drunk falls down a drain and dies. Should Mr Plod be an expert in plumbing and drainlaying? Having an independent party investigate apparent accidental deaths IS A GOOD THING. Not a perfect thing, but necessary.

Will be a shame if this ends the hillclimb. Doubt I will ever do it again myself. Too many deaths. Like someone said, people in their 50s like me need to recognise we are not teenagers and no longer have as fast reaction times and bendy, bouncy bones. Instead we discover the hard way our bones have become brittle twigs.

Creepy they were both 59 and same corner 13. RIP.

[GrayWolf]

. Like someone said, people in their 50s like me need to recognise we are not teenagers and no longer have as fast reaction times and bendy, bouncy bones. Instead we discover the hard way our bones have become brittle twigs. .

I'd completely agree with that. When a young man if I slid off my RD/GT/S1 250 etc the immediate reaction was to 'leap up' and 'cry about the bike'.. last time I had a 'off' {first one for over 20yrs} it was "Owwwwwww that fucking hurt" and laid there for a short time pondering the bruises to come. :facepalm:
My reactions are NOT as quick as when a young 'un, my road reading is far better which in traffic, sometimes gives the appearance that the reactions are 'still'......
Sadly I think sometimes 'ego' doesnt allow us to accept we are not 'as good', hence why so often boxer's carry on past their prime and risk becoming ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[jellywrestler]

Creepy they were both 59 and same corner 13. RIP.

you think that's creepy, i was driving along a road once and hadn't passed a car for over an hour, when i did though we passed each other in exactly the same place, creepy given that over a hundred kilometers had been travelled in that time, what are the odds of that happening?

[Dreama]

I'd completely agree with that. When a young man if I slid off my RD/GT/S1 250 etc the immediate reaction was to 'leap up' and 'cry about the bike'.. last time I had a 'off' {first one for over 20yrs} it was "Owwwwwww that fucking hurt" and laid there for a short time pondering the bruises to come. :facepalm:
My reactions are NOT as quick as when a young 'un, my road reading is far better which in traffic, sometimes gives the appearance that the reactions are 'still'......
Sadly I think sometimes 'ego' doesnt allow us to accept we are not 'as good', hence why so often boxer's carry on past their prime and risk becoming ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Over the years working with young guys, playing sport, coaching etc I've noticed that reaction time has nothing to do with age .. to a point, obviously, when the muscle twitch reaction time has been compromised by massive muscle reduction etc brought on by inactivity and of course we can't deny that that's part of the natural aging process. But I've seen many fit young people with pathetic reaction times.
However, if an older person in the, say, 50-65 group, stays fit with a good specific muscle building regime, and if they had a good reaction time in the first place, it can be retained.
Agility and dynamic energy is an entirely different thing and yes, we lose that as we get older and there's no way of retaining that bit :weep:
When young people have the combo of fast reactions, motivation, dynamic energy and strength ... they become the yardstick for endeavour.
What we ( the oldies) gain, however, is an advanced level of the ability to differentiate ..... probably why most older guys tend not to continue to pilot bikes at warp speed.
It's pretty obvious that if an older person wants to keep racing or riding hard then they need to be physically fit and strong. Most older guys can't be arsed working out etc so they chuck it in.
I don't know if Malcom or Wharfy were very fit but they needed to be if they were competing in such a dangerous and technical event as that hill climb, and they needed to have razor sharp reaction times.
Sadly the argument about their deaths seems to be focussing on their age, which is understandable considering the coincidences, but clearly they were simply not up to the level they needed to be for that event.
And, tbh, that's an aspect that should be addressed when entries are accepted. It's a hard call though.

[MrMarko]

Road course - yes, but did the organisers ask for the same as MNZ - at least 3 circuit meetings before entering ?
And of course we're in the nanny state now. Safety a priority as the dreaded word "liability" is likely to come up.

Graduated licences have been talked about for years. If they do come in, the system will cost more so expect licence costs to go even higher....

Indemnity form...

"I declare event organisers hold no liability in the event of my injury or death and i the signer hold all liability blah blah blah"

*signs on dotted line*

*twists wrist*

[MrMarko]

324173

........................

[MrMarko]

Before this hearing became news I had been noticing some findings of Coroner's courts in the paper. from time to time They tend to have 20/20 hindsight and even if it was a freak accident, but some i was not dotted, or t not crossed, they will make a recommendation. Some of these recommendations verge on being completely farcical. Maybe somebody should tell them that it isn't necessary that they make a recommendation every single time?

Instead of a coat of arms or similar over their head they could have a sign, "Sometimes shit happens".

I think it comes down to they need to simply understand that some sports are dangerous.

I mean lets look at how mental we are.

lets get 180+hp .... sit on top of the engine.... cuddling a tank of flammible liquid... dressed in the skin of a dead cow... trying to go as fast as we can and push our limits...

but no no oh somebody died oh regulations oh something went wrong, i agree with you its utterly absurd.

don't want to risk dying racing, don't race. I accept every time i swing my leg over my bike i may not come home... and its the exact same whether its a motorcycle a car or a bicycle.

As you said. Shit happens.

[jellywrestler]

Dispute may not have been quite correct, but in this instance it also related to tyres, compounds, treaded vs slicks in relation their estimates on corner speeds

differnt inquest kick

[Kickaha]

differnt inquest kick

It was bought up in the coroners court into the accident in which Colin Hooper was killed at Ruapuna

[Mooch]

Road course - yes, but did the organisers ask for the same as MNZ - at least 3 circuit meetings before entering ?
And of course we're in the nanny state now. Safety a priority as the dreaded word "liability" is likely to come up.

Graduated licences have been talked about for years. If they do come in, the system will cost more so expect licence costs to go even higher....

When MNZ ran the event as with other cliff hanger events you could get a day licence. However, you knew by no certain terms that the event could have high stakes and the lack of 1000 il4 weekend warriors competing would also confirm that.

Later years where run without MNZ but the events where run in the same manner. Riders brief , bikes checked , sighting run . And back protectors became compulsory. Many of the same marshals would volunteer and I found them to be very effective.

Both Malcolm and the other gentleman had competed on this for a number of years and had done many runs up the hill. Malcolm had a cautious approach to the event and with many of us would call it a day before having too many goes.

Turn 13 can catch you out. If you apex too early the line takes you wide which at 200 + puts you wide on the exit. The camber of the road rolls off quite quickly and drops away making it difficult to steer back towards the centre of the road. I gave myself quite a fright on one of my earlier runs due to apexing slightly to soon. Subsequent runs id be reminding myself breathe .... hold.... hold....turn in. Experience Racer dudes probably never noticed as they are more used to higher speed lines but novices and road riders it doesn't leave much room for error (as does cliff hanger corner)

Having said that this is a great event to compete in. I'd be buzzing for a week after the event. I know Malcolm really looked forward to it as we would talk enthusiastic about the hill between runs (and two stroke Pete) in terms of age it was quite varied but generally and older persons event. (like the fairborher gents that have been racing all their lives.

[actungbaby]

Neither were fast riders. I'll never understand how they crashed o that corner.

What the fuck is Tuckerman chiming in for? Vacant old cunt has never had anything to do with the Cliffhanger, aND isn't even an MNZ official as far as I know.

great point mate you know when you love bikes first thing i saw in that article was pround older man with bloody nice bike.

Picture says thousand words . the rest is bad luck really . on raod it usualy combination of 2-3 factors just happen to come toghter.

perfect storm if you will . what i know about racing u fit on postage stamp though have not the balls for it.

Meet guy yesterday at hosptial tryed take him to his car in the shuttle but leg was in a rig . becuase his kneee was farked.

Did on the road . some learner driver , he avoided the car great skills u ask me . but was going give up bikes put him off.

I pleaded with him to give it another try . i just asked you love bike yes he says . well just when you ready get back one

More time before you decide.

I got to say where going with this is on a closed road u dont have that added risk of the unknow . just your grip levels

and race to your skill level and keep calm usually okay. after all must be millions of kms done each year .

[actungbaby]

Its an odd world. People role the dice everyday with a probability of a terrible outcome but the minute someone has introduced some control measures the outcome becomes overly scrutinized and a blame game begins.
Living is dangerous. Your only safe when you are no longer living.

So very true buddy everone has work out there limits where they choosse to go.use the brain more than the heart.

which is tough at times of heated battle

[actungbaby]

Will be a shame if this ends the hillclimb. Doubt I will ever do it again myself. Too many deaths. Like someone said, people in their 50s like me need to recognise we are not teenagers and no longer have as fast reaction times and bendy, bouncy bones. Instead we discover the hard way our bones have become brittle twigs.

Creepy they were both 59 and same corner 13. RIP.

All suddent deaths are looked into and coronor is a very wise offical more so than most judges i say. they have to rule , on many

Tricky family .

Matters too where a rulling of accidental death or possible sucicide must have lasting effects on many familys.

Am sure he /she whould be mindfull overall impact it have on popular event. And these two blokes familys.

But over the years one in particlular made brave move public speaking out on a issue , and to regards

That there rullngs have no offical binding in law to make changes whatsover . there only role is to rule on cause of death.

and to make recomendations.

Must be bloody anoying when time after time they have deaths when saftey gear choild have made some diffrence .