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pea
4th October 2005, 11:23
Hi all,

Nice community you've got going here. I'm wondering if some amongst you can help me with my project.

In a few years I am thinking of building a kit or custom car (ah! sacrilege!) but I want to get my hand in by firstly heavily modifying a scooter. I've done some looking around on trademe etc, and the type of scooter which is well suited to my project is the nifty 50. I need:
1) Very cheap.
2) Crash damaged (I don't need fairings)
3) Compact motor unit close to back wheel (thus step-through is perfect)
4) Electric start if possible.

I see that there are many nifty 50's around, and most are well priced.

A few questions though:
1) I can't find any info on the net about the nifty 50 and its models! Was it called something else overseas? If so, what? I need to find out about models with electric start, different engines (if there are any) instrumentation etc.
2) Does anyone have any nice, large, directly side on photos of a nifty? I want to start designing the custom scooter.
3) Any other info about the nifty 50 or any custom jobs welcome!

Some extra info: I chose a scooter because they are cheap to buy as well as run. It won't need a WOF as long as it conforms to legal requirements. I would like to practice welding as well as a little fibreglass work. So a scooter is perfect.

Thanks in advance!
Pea

pea
4th October 2005, 13:23
Hi all,

A bit of looking around at the history of Honda scooters has led me to believe that our Honda Nifty Fifty is the same as the US Honda Spree? No text to that affect yet, this is all based on year of manufacture and the likeness in the images of each model.

Thoughts?

Sniper
4th October 2005, 13:32
PM Texmo mate, he is into his scooters big time. And if you say your scooter will beat a 250 I'll injure you :p

texmo
4th October 2005, 15:28
Most asain nifty 50cc come from the same factories and because of this parts are easy to get a hold of, Local wreckers are the palce to visit they will definitly have some written off scooters which is what you want. I would go for a honda as much as I hate them. I know of a few wrecked scooters for cheep but are all in auckland so I cant help you out sorry try the yahoo group 2 stroke new zeland, beware most are pretty anit asain scooters.

pea
4th October 2005, 17:06
Thanks Texmo. Palmy is a student city, so bound to be plenty of cheap honda scooters around here, as well as the wreckers. I'm pretty sure there are no motorcycle wreckers left in Palmy (there were a couple a few years back) so may be a trip coming up.

@Sniper - haha! No way it'll beat a 250. The main modification involves the look. Won't be touching the engine for a while as long as it goes. Needs to stay under 2kw anyway (but who checks, right :) ). Basically the only thing its going to have in common with a scooter are that it has the same engine and two wheels. Its basically going to be a cut-back bucket seat as low to the ground as possible with the engine behind and the front wheel somewhere between the feet :) I'll post pics when I render my design.

p.s. Texmo, when you say 'cheap' for a wrecked scooter, what sort of price are you thinking?

texmo
4th October 2005, 17:19
Depends if its going or not, You can get one from $50-$200 some places are real expensive like on outfit in auckland which chages $250 for one. I paid $600 for my PK50 which is rego'd as a 50cc scooter It puts out 18hp at the wheel, I have made up a fiber glass seat for it and a bar to make the frame stronger so it dosent flex going around corners, I have also cut away a little bit of the body work because there is no room for the carb as its a bit too big. There is a guy here in auckland with the same scooter who is doing a cut down. Try scooterbbs forums they might be able to help you out but most of them have no idea so take eveything they say with a pinch of salt.
Also a 50cc scooter doesnt need a WOF there fore they cant check that its under 2kw right?

pea
4th October 2005, 17:24
Also a 50cc scooter doesnt need a WOF there fore they cant check that its under 2kw right?

That's right :) but how you get away with 18hp (13kw?) is amazing :D gives me a lot to think about.

Thanks for the advise. I was thinking around $2-$300. Basically the less busted the better me thinks. All electrics, engine in working condition (except the odd bulb or switch etc) would be good.

2much
4th October 2005, 17:24
@Sniper - haha! No way it'll beat a 250.

I dunno.... biff them both off a cliff, it could be close.......?

texmo
4th October 2005, 17:40
That's right :) but how you get away with 18hp (13kw?) is amazing :D gives me a lot to think about.

Thanks for the advise. I was thinking around $2-$300. Basically the less busted the better me thinks. All electrics, engine in working condition (except the odd bulb or switch etc) would be good.
You might just be best off buying one out of the trade and exchange a friend of mine go his nifty for $250 out of there with rego, I have spent all up just under $3k on my scooter for a bike that is road legal, but is race dedicated...

pea
4th October 2005, 17:44
Just out of interest - dropping the riding position would be better for COG, right, but the steering would probably be comromised, as it depends on leaning?

texmo
4th October 2005, 18:42
Nah the only reason I am making a new seat is to get lower, better COG, it dosent effect the steering Although I am going to get some drop bars when I have time, basiclly the more weight on the front wheel the better so drop bars lower seat and some rear sets which are avaliable from SIP are things you should consider if your after handling

pea
4th October 2005, 20:33
Yeah, but in terms of my project :) - The rider will basically be sitting in a bucket seat as low to the ground as possible (about as high as the footrest on a step-through scooter). How do you think this will affect steering? Maybe I just have to try it and see.

texmo
4th October 2005, 20:40
If you are going to make a chopper there are many examples of the 70-80 chopper style lammbretta which was a lammbretta made to look like a cruser style motorbike, they wre very popular up untill the later 80 you dont see them around anymore but there are some still out there search on google for "lambretta" and "chopper" and "cutdown" this might give you some Ideas I would suggest not being that low maby sit ontop of the motor as its a bit more stable easyer to ride.

Artifice
4th October 2005, 21:14
honda pal/chaley/stepthrough/moped
dont remember what the old 1980 honda 50cc scoot used to be called anymore.

Motu
4th October 2005, 21:52
There was a scooter,Honda I think that was water cooled and had a foot pedal operated power valve,had a couple of square headlamps.It was still only a single speed scooter with low speed and power rating - but with water cooling and power valve already fiited 90% of the work is done for you as far as engine mods go,it could be made into a screamer.

345
4th October 2005, 22:38
There was a scooter,Honda I think that was water cooled and had a foot pedal operated power valve,had a couple of square headlamps.It was still only a single speed scooter with low speed and power rating - but with water cooling and power valve already fiited 90% of the work is done for you as far as engine mods go,it could be made into a screamer.
honda beat. usually black, but have seen some white ones around ages ago.
fast, but prone to blowing up/siezing if the water isn't checked (common thing for school kids to do) so should be able to get one cheap. also had nice telescopic forks & disk front i think too...

texmo
4th October 2005, 23:23
4 stroke oil brought at the petrol station is another goodone...

Sniper
5th October 2005, 07:25
Also a 50cc scooter doesnt need a WOF there fore they cant check that its under 2kw right?

Woooah there. I thought every road going vehicle needs a Warrent of Fitness?

EDIT: Im not saying they do, I just thought they had to?

Warren
5th October 2005, 07:58
Woooah there. I thought every road going vehicle needs a Warrent of Fitness?

EDIT: Im not saying they do, I just thought they had to?

Mopeds don't need WOF's and also pay cheap registration. To be classed as a moped it must be =<50cc and =<2kw. Many many years ago they also has to have pedels but this restriction has been removed. Some of the better 50cc models are sold with a restricter in the exaust to keep them to the 2kw mark which is often later removed by the owner (or when it gets serviced).

pea
5th October 2005, 08:15
Thanks a lot guys. Got some research to do methinks.

texmo
5th October 2005, 09:33
Woooah there. I thought every road going vehicle needs a Warrent of Fitness?

EDIT: Im not saying they do, I just thought they had to?
It needs to be at a warrentalbe level, but it doesnt one. If you have any scooter you can go to the post office and register it as a modped like so many people do with their scooters so they dont need WOF's and get $80 a year rego, you get a special type of number plate which might look a bit dogy on a motorbike....

pea
5th October 2005, 09:41
Isi t legal to use stickers instead of a number plate? Just thinking of aesthetics here - I don't want a hoary hunk of metal on the back if I can avoid it by sticking the numbers on a white surface instead (that can be slightly curved). I saw that on a kit car once, but can't remember if it was NZ or not.

texmo
5th October 2005, 18:22
I am pretty sure as long as its the same size its ok but dont quote me and i wouldnt bet money on it....

pea
5th October 2005, 19:59
And another:

Does a custom scooter need to be certified before road use? I know it doesn't need a WOF, but can you just chuck anything on two wheels that meets the warrantable standards on the road without it being checked?

texmo
5th October 2005, 20:48
No it needs to be certified if you have modifyed anything structrial but in the real world the cant police it... I got stopped by a cop who ahd to radio in to check if a 50 needs a wof and where they are supposed to be on bikes/scooters.

pea
6th October 2005, 07:49
Yeah, that's what I mean. Mine will be structurally very different. ANy idea where I go to find out more information about this? I have emailed the LTSA but no reply yet. They have a disclaimer which says "we will try to answer all questions within 10 business days". 10 days!

texmo
6th October 2005, 09:16
Ring them on general inquires 0800 699 000 and ask for your local office.

pea
6th October 2005, 11:57
I rung the LTSA and they didn't have a clue. However, I was given the email address of the person with the most technical knowledge about these matters. I'll let you know the reply once I get one! I'm not expecting a quick reply, as my email from the other day still hasn't got a reply either.

pea
6th October 2005, 12:37
Here is a quick sketch of my proposed concept (Currently being mocked up in 3D) from side view. Its not meant to be practical :). Going for a minimalist approach.

MisterD
6th October 2005, 15:17
I'd stick a bloody great flag on a pole if I was going take that on the road, looks fun, but like those mini choppers I'd say it was a fast track to pancake-ville.

Good luck though, the world needs more mad scientists.

pea
6th October 2005, 15:21
Yeah, I'm doing this to get experience making a custom vehicle (a little welding, a little fibreglassing, a little of everything really) before I tackle a car in a few years time. If it never makes it to the road I don't really mind. A flag would look cack but it'd be a lot safer :P

pea
10th October 2005, 14:41
Reply from LTSA:
---
Thanks for your enquiry in regard to moped requirements. I advise as follows :-
Factsheet 43 is the major resource for moped information
As stated in this Factsheet a moped must be registered and display a number plate clearly
A moped does not need a WOF but must be kept in a safe condition
A mirror is not a mandatory requirement but I would recommend that you fit one
There are no requirements in regard to seating position, but you should be aware that the low position you mention may cause the vehicle to be difficult for other road users to see in some circumstances
I trust that this answers your enquiry
---
So still no reply on the most important question, which is 'does a moped need to be legally certified after structural modification', but I'm hoping for that soon. If not, then it must be legally possible to build your own from scratch, register it as whatever you like (probably based on donor engine) and take it out on the road.

marty
10th October 2005, 14:53
have a look on here - section 5 and 6

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rules/vehicle-standards-compliance-2002.html

marty
10th October 2005, 14:59
basically if you keep the cc rating under 50cc, and don't exceed 50km/h, it is exempt from certification (class LA). if you're caught over 50k though, it becomes a class LC, which is not exempt

pea
10th October 2005, 15:01
Thanks Marty:

6.2 When a vehicle must be certified for entry into service
6.2(1) A vehicle to which section 4 applies must be inspected in accordance with that section before it can be certified for entry into service under section 6.

6.2(2) A vehicle blah blah blah blah....

Everything seems to reference 'section 6', which is:

6.1 Application
This section applies to all vehicles entering or re-entering service, except:

{a) a vehicle of Class AB, LA, LB, TA or TB;
(b) an armoured vehicle blah blah blah...

Where a moped is:

LA (Moped with two wheels) A motor vehicle (other than a power-assisted pedal cycle) that:
(a) has two wheels; and
(b) either:
(i) has an engine cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 ml and a maximum speed not exceeding 50 km/h; or
(ii) has a power source other than a piston engine and a maximum speed not exceeding 50 km/h.

pea
12th October 2005, 11:32
Final word regarding the structural alteration of a moped from the LTSA:

Thanks for your further enquiry in regard to the modified moped. Because mopeds are not subject to a Warrant of Fitness they are by association, not subject to the Low Volume Vehicle Code as well, and so modifications are not required to be certified under that code. You should be mindful of the fact that despite the above there is the expectation that mopeds are kept to a safe standard similar to WOF requirement level, and that any moped that a police traffic patrol finds not to be of that standard can be ordered off the road. Also any moped that produces more than 2KW power output or is capable of being ridden at a speed exceeding 50KPH is deemed to no longer be a moped and must comply with the requirements for motorcycles.

I trust that clarifies the situation.

zeRax
12th October 2005, 11:58
so aslong as you dont get caught doing 100kmph your sweet O_o? nice
leaves room to get away with quite a bit i imagine

Sniper
12th October 2005, 13:52
Its a fraking scooter. But I admire your will to customise one.

texmo
12th October 2005, 20:47
Everything has been done before to scooters, You should google for a day looking up stuff and you with find some very usefull infomation.

inlinefour
3rd November 2005, 10:41
keep riding yer RG, just don't wind the throttle so far back