Rise of the Machines

[R650R]

Well automated vehicles are coming sooner than we think. We need to work out what are the issues and dangers we will face as bikers and the impact on our riding styles. Who will be legally responsible when one of these machines has some kind of failure and kills a biker?
Will we still be able to overtake and brap past in the same manner as now or will it autoreport other vehicles 'non compliant' road user behaviour?
Reading another forum about automated trucks it seems now that the drivers logbook hours wont be an issue, owners will be happy for the trucks to travel at slower speeds for better fuel economy. I expect the owners/leasee's of automated cars will want to do the same. So on nice flowing roads where most people manage a good average speed, these nanabots will be pissing around like sunday drivers 7 days a week and adhering to the ltsa recommended cornering speeds etc.
How will an automated vehicle cope with coming up behind a truck in wet weather where the size of truck and its spray will block its view ahead. I dont thinkt hese machines will relaise the same overtaking opportunities that drivers might.
Of course evnetually they will all commnicate together but in the mean time we will be heading into dangerous and frustrating times with these things.....
What will they do on a cow crap covered highway where a farmer has just moved stock?

[ellipsis]

...Questions, questions, questions...I wonder what's for lunch?...will it be burnt?...

[Akzle]

Well automated vehicles are coming sooner than we think. We need to work out what are the issues and dangers we will face as bikers and the impact on our riding styles. Who will be legally responsible when one of these machines has some kind of failure and kills a biker?
Will we still be able to overtake and brap past in the same manner as now or will it autoreport other vehicles 'non compliant' road user behaviour?
Reading another forum about automated trucks it seems now that the drivers logbook hours wont be an issue, owners will be happy for the trucks to travel at slower speeds for better fuel economy. I expect the owners/leasee's of automated cars will want to do the same. So on nice flowing roads where most people manage a good average speed, these nanabots will be pissing around like sunday drivers 7 days a week and adhering to the ltsa recommended cornering speeds etc.
How will an automated vehicle cope with coming up behind a truck in wet weather where the size of truck and its spray will block its view ahead. I dont thinkt hese machines will relaise the same overtaking opportunities that drivers might.
Of course evnetually they will all commnicate together but in the mean time we will be heading into dangerous and frustrating times with these things.....
What will they do on a cow crap covered highway where a farmer has just moved stock?

personally, i will never own one. (there may come a time when teh govt mandate them, or force others off the road through ridiculous licensing/fees etc. hurrah for civil disobedience)

i will also probably never own an automatic, nor anything with "traction control"
i HATE having to second guess a computer, and have yet to meet one that can keep up with me. (to say nothing of the associated maintenance implications: paying an IT guy to tune my vehicle? no thanks.)

average speed would increase. particularly where they'll be most useful (town) as drivers are the biggest impediment to traffic flow. failing to give way SLOWS EVERYONE DOWN, so too, failing to merge. riding peoples asses and being on your brakes all the time is inefficient, annoying and stupid, running red lights SLOWS TRAFFIC DOWN.
overtaking becomes irrelevant. (so do traffic lights for that matter)

there is no reason traffic cant merge and flow at 120+ kph. except stupid ass townies that feel the need to be 3 feet off the car in front and not let anyone "get ahead of them", can't hold 60 through a corner but will speed up to 115 at any passing chance you might have.

easier solution: kill all the townies.

as to the big-brother shit, nevermind the cars, the tracker in your pocket will do. and you'll be microchipped before too long.

vote akzle.

[Banditbandit]

What about hacker protection? How will these vehicles be protected from psychopathic and assassin hackers?

Will the Popo have remote control and the ability to turn off your engine?

What's the capital of Venezuela?

[Akzle]

Will the Popo have remote control and the ability to turn off your engine?



yes. in fact they're already trying it in the states. (various legal hurdles, what, with all the cops being psychopaths)

your insurance company has the "key" to your remote engine management system - they can prevent the car being started (if stolen, or if you're late paying) or even start it remotely.... this is years old technology! but spreading like cancer...

for your benefit, obviously, because if your car DOES get stolen they can lock the doors, immobilise it and phone the police while the crims trash their way out.

[Akzle]

What's the capital of Venezuela?

caracas (yes i had to search for it. who gives a shit??)

https://ww2.kqed.org/pop/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/05/tumblr_nj4fgeWetz1qk08n1o1_500.gif

[HenryDorsetCase]

What about hacker protection? How will these vehicles be protected from psychopathic and assassin hackers?

Will the Popo have remote control and the ability to turn off your engine?

What's the capital of Venezuela?

Been done: those Jeeps were hacked a year or so back.

Caracas

[pritch]

There was the recent incident in the USA where the driverless car went straight under a truck killing the occupant. (Can't really call him a driver.)
The truck was painted a similar colour to the sky so the car didn't see it.

SMIDSY from a driverless car, a world first?

[Gremlin]

So on nice flowing roads where most people manage a good average speed, these nanabots will be pissing around like sunday drivers 7 days a week and adhering to the ltsa recommended cornering speeds etc.
How will an automated vehicle cope with coming up behind a truck in wet weather where the size of truck and its spray will block its view ahead. I dont thinkt hese machines will relaise the same overtaking opportunities that drivers might.
Well based on the average road user (lets not call them drivers), machines can probably do a better job. For rain, it's OK. Currently they can't drive in it, so for your average Auckland day (where it usually rains at least once just to remind you) there will be a lot less traffic.

That said, Merc is doing some really cool teaming stuff with their trucks.

[Mike.Gayner]

Globally, over a million people a year die in traffic accidents. Automatic vehicles have the potential to drop this number to a fraction of what it is today. Bring it on.

[Akzle]

Globally, over a million people a year die in traffic accidents. Automatic vehicles have the potential to drop this number to a fraction of what it is today. Bring it on.

errrr, why??
the planet is well overpopulated as is... since the majority* of people that die in car crashes are idiots (evidenced by the fact that they crashed), this is no loss at all to society and could even be considered as "for the greater good"




*probably

[george formby]

I recently read an article by a guy who works in cyber security, or some such. He bought a VW knowing that the car (and many other brands) reports back to a VW server somewhere. All the sat nav and sensor info from the car. He tried to get this "feature" disabled by the dealer. No chance, they were clueless. Same deal with VW, the answer was "you can't turn it off." He tried himself, pulled the dash to bits, no joy, still transmitting. Eventually somebody at VW got in touch and sent him back to the dealer who had been given the info on switching off the data transmitter. Hmmmmmm.

A lot of modern cars do the same thing, ostensibly so the manufacturers can refine the product...... Nice of them to tell us.

As for automated cars and meat controlled bikes? Heaven. Machines are predictable, they won't speed up on overtaking lanes or slam the brakes on mid corner.

As for the topless Tesla, radar won't be far off. I believe systems are being developed in Scandinavia, infra red and radar, to prevent Moose strike at dawn and dusk.

Realistically, any of us over 40 will see very little of it. T'will be a long time before robots rule the road. I hope it happens quick enough that I can get a robot when my license is revoked due to bad eyesight. No bus service round here.

Bring it on I say.

[Akzle]

an xkcd for every occasion!

http://xkcd.com/1720/

[george formby]

an xkcd for every occasion!

http://xkcd.com/1720/

I doff my cap in your general direction.

[AllanB]

I welcome fully automated cars - if you take it to a logical conclusion the car will be design to avoid any chance of a collision.

So I'll be able to ride like a mad bastard on my motorcycle and cars will automatically get-the-fuck-out-of-my-way :bleh:

[Berries]

Globally, over a million people a year die in traffic accidents. Automatic vehicles have the potential to drop this number to a fraction of what it is today. Bring it on.
The problem is the majority of those who die on the road are in the countries that will be right at the back of the queue for autonomous vehicles. Not sure when you will see a full on Tesla fapping around the autobahns of Ethiopia or a platoon of self driving Volvo F12's dodging the elephants in Rajasthan.

https://www.worldbank.org/transport/roads/safety.htm#crash

[Coldrider]

I think it will become obvious that bikers are killing themselves.

[R650R]

I understand peoples comments in regards to once the whole system is autonomous, but my main concern is dealing with the transistion phase over the next 10 years....
What will an automated vehicles response be in a breakdown situ like in narrow road like manawatu gorge. Will the occupants be able to manually push it out of the way of other traffic...

[george formby]

I understand peoples comments in regards to once the whole system is autonomous, but my main concern is dealing with the transistion phase over the next 10 years....
What will an automated vehicles response be in a breakdown situ like in narrow road like manawatu gorge. Will the occupants be able to manually push it out of the way of other traffic...

And there in lies the rub. That's why I believe it will take decades before a country like NZ, let alone, say, Nepal, will be dominated by autonomous vehicles. Designing a vehicle which can safely and efficiently travel on a motorway into and from a city is one thing. Designing a vehicle which will do the same on all NZ, or otherwise, roads is a much bigger task. The same restrictions will initially apply to autonomous vehicles as applied to the first IC engine vehicles. They will only deliver the full promise on suitable roads.

[ellipsis]

...their effect is preceding them...a car park space in our little village, we have been informed by TPTB, is going to be a recharging facility for e-cars...there is already a furore developing with a local group who think that they (e-cars), should fuck off and find their own spot...I just luv livin' in the country...it's so entertaining...

[george formby]

...their effect is preceding them...a car park space in our little village, we have been informed by TPTB, is going to be a recharging facility for e-cars...there is already a furore developing with a local group who think that they (e-cars), should fuck off and find their own spot...I just luv livin' in the country...it's so entertaining...

Have you noticed people walking like John Cleese, with their chins and chests thrust out in a determined manner?

We have a charging facility here in Kawakawa. I noticed immediately that the owner of the gas station across the road had no objection. It's a great place for parking.

[jonbuoy]

For an autonomous car driving in a crowded city would be more challenging than the open road. Generally it is for a human. I don't think it will take much more than 10 years before the majority of cars will be self driving for the majority of the time with the driver "supervising". Much like a modern airliner. Liability can be reduced by disclaimers and making sure the driver/conductor is aware that the systems are driver aids and not to fall asleep at the wheel.

I don't think many people have managed to sue a car company over ABS or ESC not preventing an accident?

[kifflom]

I'm sure a car made with all the best modern technology and a computer system designed to get you from A to B as safely as possible will be far more reliable than a stressed out, distracted human who treats their car like an appliance. And with a bit of luck they might help us reduce the population of hipsters when they get confused. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/google-self-driving-cars-get-confused-by-hipster-bicycles-2015-8?r=US&IR=T

[Night Falcon]

Not that it matters much but cold comfort is better than no comfort.

Question: would you rather be T-boned by another person, to whom you can unleash some well chosen comments about their pedigree post crash (lets be positive and assume your still able to communicate) or by a passionless machine that will never show any remorse for its dark deed, never wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat regretful of its inattention and pending court appearance or even give it another thought....err...computation?

Part of the healing process we humans go through is being able to unload our frustrations on each other....yelling at machines just isn't the same. The scientists haven't thought about that now have they.

[jonbuoy]

Not that it matters much but cold comfort is better than no comfort.

Question: would you rather be T-boned by another person, to whom you can unleash some well chosen comments about their pedigree post crash (lets be positive and assume your still able to communicate) or by a passionless machine that will never show any remorse for its dark deed, never wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat regretful of its inattention and pending court appearance or even give it another thought....err...computation?

Part of the healing process we humans go through is being able to unload our frustrations on each other....yelling at machines just isn't the same. The scientists haven't thought about that now have they.

Programmers and designers will have a few sleepless nights. Biggest issue is the moral dilemma of minimising casualties. Unlike a human a car will eventually have enough time and information to work out the best course of action to minimise casualties. Ploughing you into a wall to avoid a multi car pile up or to avoid smashing into a bunch of school kids who have bumbled into the road accidentally. Would you programme your car to slam your side into an oncoming object to avoid injuring your partner or children in case of an accident.

The upcoming moral dilemmas are massive.

[Big Dog]

Have you noticed people walking like John Cleese, with their chins and chests thrust out in a determined manner?

We have a charging facility here in Kawakawa. I noticed immediately that the owner of the gas station across the road had no objection. It's a great place for parking.
The owner owner of the gassy probably immediately recognises the value of still being the impulse purchase destination without the losses involved in including fuel in the transaction.

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[jonbuoy]

You would have to be very short sighted to own a gas station and not tap into the electric car market potential. Nothing else to do except spend money while your waiting for a quick battery boost or swap out.

[Akzle]

no. no that's silly. the demograph for electrics is those on a limited range (what, 250km right now?)
until flash-charge battery tech comes in, servos are irrelevant for them. it's charge at home, drive to work, charge at work, drive home.

[Bass]

Part of the healing process we humans go through is being able to unload our frustrations on each other....yelling at machines just isn't the same. The scientists haven't thought about that now have they.

Maybe, but John Cleese had it down to a fine art - even gave his Austin 1100 a "sound thrashing"

[jonbuoy]

no. no that's silly. the demograph for electrics is those on a limited range (what, 250km right now?)
until flash-charge battery tech comes in, servos are irrelevant for them. it's charge at home, drive to work, charge at work, drive home.

They will still be pumping up tyres, refilling windscreen wash, jet washing, stopping for a pee and a coffee. Tesla can take a 50% charge in 20 minutes.

[Big Dog]

no. no that's silly. the demograph for electrics is those on a limited range (what, 250km right now?)
until flash-charge battery tech comes in, servos are irrelevant for them. it's charge at home, drive to work, charge at work, drive home.
Aye. But when they need a to up the sort of person who owns a Tesla is likely to not mind paying a ransom for a latte and brioche.

They will still be pumping up tyres, refilling windscreen wash, jet washing, stopping for a pee and a coffee. Tesla can take a 50% charge in 20 minutes.


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[Akzle]

They will still be pumping up tyres, refilling windscreen wash, jet washing, stopping for a pee and a coffee. Tesla can take a 50% charge in 20 minutes.

windscreens will be irrelevant when the computer's driving. even when it's not, it'll probably be a screen with exterior cameras,Not glass.HUD, sensor overlays, gps nav etcetcetc
and how many people DO any of that, checking tyres is your mechanics job at WOF time isn't it??
coffee machines will be built in (before caffeine IV drips are introduced)...

[jonbuoy]

windscreens will be irrelevant when the computer's driving. even when it's not, it'll probably be a screen with exterior cameras,Not glass.HUD, sensor overlays, gps nav etcetcetc
and how many people DO any of that, checking tyres is your mechanics job at WOF time isn't it??
coffee machines will be built in (before caffeine IV drips are introduced)...

Jesus you do spout drivel.

[nerrrd]

The cheapest, most reliable autonomous driving system is still a human being.

Plus there won't be any real world benefits from self-driving cars until there are enough of them on the road for the co-ordination between them to start alleviating congestion. Unless you see being able to watch a DVD instead of the road (or working on your laptop if that's how you work, which for by far the majority it's not) as a benefit, plus any safety improvements which might not be statistically significant enough to justify the extra cost.

The only way I can see this working is if congestion zones become 'self driving' zones - ie no human driven cars beyond this point. If your car's not compatible then park it and take an autonomous bus/uber/whatever, if it is, carry on. That way the 'network' can manage the congestion and everyone gets where they want to go as efficiently as possible.

But I'm often wrong.

[george formby]

The cheapest, most reliable autonomous driving system is still a human being.

Plus there won't be any real world benefits from self-driving cars until there are enough of them on the road for the co-ordination between them to start alleviating congestion. Unless you see being able to watch a DVD instead of the road (or working on your laptop if that's how you work, which for by far the majority it's not) as a benefit, plus any safety improvements which might not be statistically significant enough to justify the extra cost.

The only way I can see this working is if congestion zones become 'self driving' zones - ie no human driven cars beyond this point. If your car's not compatible then park it and take an autonomous bus/uber/whatever, if it is, carry on. That way the 'network' can manage the congestion and everyone gets where they want to go as efficiently as possible.

But I'm often wrong.

Yup, traffic density is the clue. It makes huge sense in congested cities to have fleets of autonomous vehicles constantly on the road, communicating to maintain flow. speeds won't increase but efficiency will. Less pressure on parking frees up land, less investment needed to up grade public transport, probably much smaller vehicles, too, so a higher density of traffic on current roads. The pluses keep stacking up for city and city fringe dwellers. Not so much for us hicks, be awhile before an autonomous vehicle will make sense for the Mangamukas.

[Gremlin]

...be awhile before an autonomous vehicle will make sense for the Mangamukas.
I think it will be a while before an autonomous vehicle can make sense of the Mangamukas :D

[MarkH]

There was the recent incident in the USA where the driverless car went straight under a truck killing the occupant. (Can't really call him a driver.)
The truck was painted a similar colour to the sky so the car didn't see it.

SMIDSY from a driverless car, a world first?

You have your facts a bit off there, it wasn't an autonomous car involved in that incident. It was a Tesla S - Tesla will make autonomous cars but they don't currently do so. The current system on a Tesla is a fancy form of cruise control that can steer & brake but the driver needs to watch the road and be ready to take over, the car only keeps itself steady in the lane and does not navigate to a destination. Tesla's system would have saved more lives than the one life lost by the guy watching a movie and trusting the car to work as good as a true autonomous system.

True autonomous cars are often using camera, radar, sonar & Lidar (yep, seriously using all 4).
To be honest I'd trust an autonomous car more than one driven by a human, damn humans are fucking useless at seeing motorcycles.

[george formby]

I think it will be a while before an autonomous vehicle can make sense of the Mangamukas :D

Indeed!

I was given a dash cam for my birthday awhile back. Purely for entertainment value hopefully, so I can revisit the numerous vehicles crossing the centre line and other assorted stupidity that I see on my commute.

Problem is, though, at the legal limit (80kph) which makes up most of my twisty drive, the lane departure and hazard avoidance alarms were going off constantly so I had to disable them. The emergency record, triggered by the g sensor, was constantly being activated by cornering forces and bumps so I had to disable that, too.

The technology to allow a vehicle to drive hands free at the same speed as a capable driver on a lot of our secondary roads is some way off IMHO.

[MarkH]

The technology to allow a vehicle to drive hands free at the same speed as a capable driver on a lot of our secondary roads is some way off IMHO.

I'd be happy to see autonomous cars for the drivers that are not so capable!
Actually I do know some people that would love an autonomous car because they can't drive at all now due to being legally blind, I see others on the road that shouldn't be due to being fuckin' stupid!

[Laava]

I can well imagine an autonomous car, on the auckland motorways, slowing down when someone cuts in thereby leaving a nice big gap for someone else to slot in etc etc and then just becoming a fucking nuisance to the point where the other traffic was badly affected by it. Similar to the chaos that happens when there is a crash and the traffic on the other side of the barrier is affected by rubbernecking.

[BMWST?]

I can well imagine an autonomous car, on the auckland motorways, slowing down when someone cuts in thereby leaving a nice big gap for someone else to slot in etc etc and then just becoming a fucking nuisance to the point where the other traffic was badly affected by it. Similar to the chaos that happens when there is a crash and the traffic on the other side of the barrier is affected by rubbernecking.
nope.
a stream of autonomous cars will all be exactly 1 metre apart and travelling at exactly the same speed.There will be synchronised lane changing at off ramps,because all vehicles will be in the correct lane .part of this automous cars is the fact that there is communication between the cars and the "enviroment" so everything local is known to all vehicles.

[Laava]

nope.
a stream of autonomous cars will all be exactly 1 metre apart and travelling at exactly the same speed.There will be synchronised lane changing at off ramps,because all vehicles will be in the correct lane .part of this automous cars is the fact that there is communication between the cars and the "enviroment" so everything local is known to all vehicles.

That could work perfectly(catastrophic if a dog or cow or sheep was introduced suddenly!) if all cars were autonomous but that wasn't the scenario I had in mind. I was thinking about todays traffic

[Gremlin]

nope.
a stream of autonomous cars will all be exactly 1 metre apart and travelling at exactly the same speed.There will be synchronised lane changing at off ramps,because all vehicles will be in the correct lane .part of this automous cars is the fact that there is communication between the cars and the "enviroment" so everything local is known to all vehicles.
And then a truck will drive a crane into a bridge and the motorway will shut down ;)

[eldog]

nope.
a stream of autonomous cars will all be exactly 1 metre apart and travelling at exactly the same speed.There will be synchronised lane changing at off ramps,because all vehicles will be in the correct lane .part of this automous cars is the fact that there is communication between the cars and the "enviroment" so everything local is known to all vehicles.

All well and good generally, but you are assuming that most people know where they are going:killingme

[jonbuoy]

The cheapest, most reliable autonomous driving system is still a human being.

Plus there won't be any real world benefits from self-driving cars until there are enough of them on the road for the co-ordination between them to start alleviating congestion. Unless you see being able to watch a DVD instead of the road (or working on your laptop if that's how you work, which for by far the majority it's not) as a benefit, plus any safety improvements which might not be statistically significant enough to justify the extra cost.

The only way I can see this working is if congestion zones become 'self driving' zones - ie no human driven cars beyond this point. If your car's not compatible then park it and take an autonomous bus/uber/whatever, if it is, carry on. That way the 'network' can manage the congestion and everyone gets where they want to go as efficiently as possible.

But I'm often wrong.

No benefits? Imagine you can page your car to pick you up from the pub, drop you off at the airport, pick your kids up from school, take an elderly relative to the doctors, pick up your online groceries, pick up that package you've been waiting for. I know people bleat about the loss of jobs but most taxi drivers here are lunatics on the road and I would rather trust a computer.

[george formby]

I'd be happy to see autonomous cars for the drivers that are not so capable!
Actually I do know some people that would love an autonomous car because they can't drive at all now due to being legally blind, I see others on the road that shouldn't be due to being fuckin' stupid!

Totally agree.

Whichever way you look at it, they are coming, teething troubles and all. Ultimately, having a chauffeur without the wage cost has a lot of appeal.

A scenario I postulated on the Tesla site was coming home from a hard days dirt riding, eating and sleeping while I traveled. Bliss. Must admit, the info on these vehicles towing trailers is pretty scant.

[jonbuoy]

Totally agree.

Whichever way you look at it, they are coming, teething troubles and all. Ultimately, having a chauffeur without the wage cost has a lot of appeal.

A scenario I postulated on the Tesla site was coming home from a hard days dirt riding, eating and sleeping while I traveled. Bliss. Must admit, the info on these vehicles towing trailers is pretty scant.

Oh yeah - picking you up from a one way hike, bike, run, trial ride. You can't stop progress - might as well focus on the positives. By the time the technology becomes widespread enough to stop me driving my V8 I'll be past the age of being able to safely drive myself.

[nerrrd]

Totally agree.

Whichever way you look at it, they are coming, teething troubles and all.

Coming like moonbases and supersonic airliners, or coming like phones in your pocket?


Ultimately, having a chauffeur without the wage cost has a lot of appeal.

Unless, of course, it turns out to be cheaper to hire the chauffeur than buy the car (I notice Apple has scaled back their car efforts, and they're not interested in anything that doesn't have mega margins).

I'm thinking they should make a robot chauffeur – one that can drive any car. And make beeping noises. Ooh, and say "warning, warning, collision approaching, run [insert name here]!"

[spanner spinner]

Totally agree.

Whichever way you look at it, they are coming, teething troubles and all. Ultimately, having a chauffeur without the wage cost has a lot of appeal.

A scenario I postulated on the Tesla site was coming home from a hard days dirt riding, eating and sleeping while I traveled. Bliss. Must admit, the info on these vehicles towing trailers is pretty scant.

Audi already have a system for reversing trailers for all the no hopers who can't work out the physics of turn left to make the trailer go right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6n7FlOcXMw Audi VW and skoda alter the ABS and traction control response when a trailer is fitted so most of the technology already exists.

The trailer assist system can't be sold in NZ as the tow hitch required is not certified to NZ standards, it exceeds these standards but just doesn't have the paperwork to say it does and for the one or two people who will want this option is not worth spending the money to do so. NZ tow bar manufactures actively blocked excepting overseas standards to close the NZ market to the better Tow bars available as OEM fitment to keep, there monopoly. This is going to be the biggest hurdle to the new technologies coming on line, some luddite who wants to keep selling there 50 year out of date technology so they can keep making a couple of dollars by blocking new technology when they don't have the ability to make it.

[Night Falcon]

whatever way you chose to look at it all new technology has had its teething problems. Pointless ignition to FI, we've weathered the storm and eventually reaped the rewards. That being said I'd still rather be run over by a car with a human at the wheel than some Cyberdyne Systems terminator controlled drone. Ignore Sarah Conner's warnings at your own peril :2guns:

[spanner spinner]

The beginning and the trucks will lead the way. Look at it from the position of the owners of trucking companys, better fuel economy, less maintance, no wages to pay and the computor dosen't have a maxium amount of hours it can drive. Buy a couple of extra trailers so you can pre load them and you can run the rig 24/7, more cost efective and you can move more freight with less tractor units. This will be the big push as most current drivers have been conditioned to the fact that they are in control of their car (would argue the point myself with some of the driving I have seen over the years I have been on the road) and are proving reluctant to give over control to a computor. But from a freight companys point of view if they can cut their costs (no drivers no wages) and run my equipment 24/7 giving them a better return on investment they will push to bring this techology online ASAP. The cars will follow especialy if it makes it easier to run the trucks with out drivers, economics will get us all yet again. My question is if everything else is automated where does a human controled motorbike fit? Or will they also have to be computor controled and would you ride one, or should I say pillion one as the computors doing the riding your just along for the ride.

http://phys.org/news/2016-10-driverless-truck-uber-otto-colorado.html

[jellywrestler]

The beginning and the trucks will lead the way. Look at it from the position of the owners of trucking companys, better fuel economy, less maintance, no wages to pay and the computor dosen't have a maxium amount of hours it can drive. Buy a couple of extra trailers so you can pre load them and you can run the rig 24/7, more cost efective and you can move more freight with less tractor units. This will be the big push as most current drivers have been conditioned to the fact that they are in control of their car (would argue the point myself with some of the driving I have seen over the years I have been on the road) and are proving reluctant to give over control to a computor. But from a freight companys point of view if they can cut their costs (no drivers no wages) and run my equipment 24/7 giving them a better return on investment they will push to bring this techology online ASAP. The cars will follow especialy if it makes it easier to run the trucks with out drivers, economics will get us all yet again. My question is if everything else is automated where does a human controled motorbike fit? Or will they also have to be computor controled and would you ride one, or should I say pillion one as the computors doing the riding your just along for the ride.

http://phys.org/news/2016-10-driverless-truck-uber-otto-colorado.html

sounds like dream world to me.

[Coldrider]

sounds like dream world to me.motorbikes will need gyros to remain stable or they may just speed limited to 45kph for your average hooligan on his/her GSXR1CBRZXRRZZZRXB1rrrrrrrrrrr......:mad:

[Dave-]

The car and motorcycle enthusiast will become like the modern horse rider.

[onearmedbandit]

I believe it was Mercedes who the other day answered in a round about way the question about the 'moral dilemma' manufacturers face regarding who the software chooses to kill, the driver or the innocent pedestrian etc. They said that their software would be programmed to protect the occupants first and foremost. This I can understand. If I was a CEO and was considering which luxury car I was going to buy, I'd want the one that chooses to save me, not kill me. Simple really. Morally ethical? Don't know, but it makes sense.

[Jeff Sichoe]

yeah that's an old mental exercise called the 'trolley problem'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the most ethical choice?

[Big Dog]

yeah that's an old mental exercise called the 'trolley problem'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics. The general form of the problem is this: There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the most ethical choice?
Option one is a little more palatable because it removes you from the role of actor to the role of observer.

Personally I would be more affected by standing idly by and allowing the five to perish so would probably take option 2.
But then I have been brought up to believe in moral imperatives such as the means justifies the ends and better one than many.

Far easier to be altruistic in theory than in real life I imagine. Where a human might make a radically different choice....
What if I were the one who would die?
What if a family were the five?
What if that were my family?
The girl you have a crush on vs five paedophiles?

Scenario:
Your juggernaught is reversing up the drive, your little girl runs into the driveway to get a kiss from you before you go. Juggernaut can't stop in time by the time your car detects her presence. Does the car put you over a bank to save her or continue to try and brake to save you?

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[Grumph]

Saw a side effect of driverless vehicles mentioned on another forum by a guy who should know...

They're already using robot trucks underground in Aussie mines. They've turned out to be harder on the roadbeds...
The guidance systems are so accurate that they all follow exactly the same path. Human drivers typically are within about a meter each time round.

[spanner spinner]

Saw a side effect of driverless vehicles mentioned on another forum by a guy who should know...

They're already using robot trucks underground in Aussie mines. They've turned out to be harder on the roadbeds...
The guidance systems are so accurate that they all follow exactly the same path. Human drivers typically are within about a meter each time round.

this is just a software issue, easy fix the deviation can be programmed in. This is still easier to fix by a few lines of code than training bad habits out of a bad driver.

[Akzle]

or build roads proper...?

[Dave-]

Saw a side effect of driverless vehicles mentioned on another forum by a guy who should know...

They're already using robot trucks underground in Aussie mines. They've turned out to be harder on the roadbeds...
The guidance systems are so accurate that they all follow exactly the same path. Human drivers typically are within about a meter each time round.

They found the same thing with automated plane landing, they had to add a bounded random number to the target landing spot.


or build roads proper...?

Build roads that don't wear out? Fuck, I bet no one has thought of that before!

[jonbuoy]

They will be unaffordable by most people for many years so you will be waiting a long time for deaths to drop in a big way. Road deaths will likely increase for a while as the technology is in its infancy. I hope ACC does not put premiums up for everyone else as a result of crashes caused by driverless cars.

None of the sensors or computers are massively expensive in the grand scheme of things. It's going to be driver assist for a while yet. It won't take long for the results to be felt. A car that won't let you pull out in front of someone or go into the back of someone will go a long way to reducing deaths. The anti rear end technology is already pretty common on high end cars. It won't be long before it's mandatory.

[Akzle]

Build roads that don't wear out? Fuck, I bet no one has thought of that before!

better*. would be a good start.
the foot of base under the inch of bitch just doesn't really cut it for trucks hauling 50t

a pair of parrallel high carbon steel rails seems to last a whiley, too...

[Akzle]

The anti rear end technology is already pretty common on high end cars. It won't be long before it's mandatory.

a shame they dont instead mandatorise not driving into shit.Most people manage, most of the time...

[Maha]

a shame they dont instead mandatorise not driving into shit.Most people manage, most of the time...



Serious question; Does this kind of post ^^^ make sense to you in your head when you type it?

As your shearing buddy once asked.

[Voltaire]

I expect we will need a "Model T" equivalent to kick it off much like what happened in the US over about 10-20 years with the horse which had been around for some years.

As someone who only buys vehicles when they are 10 years old plus I'll have to wait a while :no:

[R650R]

....less maintance, no wages to pay and the computor dosen't have a maxium amount of hours it can drive. Buy a couple of extra trailers so you can pre load them and you can run the rig 24/7, more cost efective and you can move more freight with less tractor units....

How does owning more capital equipment equal less maintainance cost???? The freight wont load and unload itself either. Many current general freight operations rely on human skill and experience to 'cube out' a trailer to its maximum payload. The side issues here too are customer service in making sure all freight is shipped and undamaged. You could write a computer program for a robot forklift to load freight but here are many intangible variable and creative solutions to making freight fit....

The big wild card though is the price of commercial real estate which is why we have just in time manufacturing and transport operations. Its the reason why we cant have everything on rail 'like the old days' as storage costs are often higher than actually sending something somewhere. To have extra trailers you need extra space to park them and also loading unloading.

And how will these self drive vehicles cope with storms and natural disasters, minor and major.
And down the track just imagine once the wild life realises the machines will brake for them.... Imagine the point of evolution where a feral cow knows it can wander onto the roadway and nap in front of a roadtrain getting free winter heat of its idling engine as it wait for the cow to move on.... ohh hang on sounds like driving through remuera.... lol

[R650R]

I believe it was Mercedes who the other day answered in a round about way the question about the 'moral dilemma' manufacturers face regarding who the software chooses to kill, the driver or the innocent pedestrian etc. They said that their software would be programmed to protect the occupants first and foremost. This I can understand. If I was a CEO and was considering which luxury car I was going to buy, I'd want the one that chooses to save me, not kill me. Simple really. Morally ethical? Don't know, but it makes sense.

Yes and also the legal imnplication. Imagine the lawsuits if a customer buys a product and his safety is secondary to mere strangers.
Just look at trains and we have our answer already. The train is big heavy and cant stop easy. It can kill many people if the many people choose to get their tour bus in the way of the train. So do we have pre placed explosiuve charges to blow a train of its own tracks if a tour bus gets stuck on crossing... no its just hard luck for those in the way of the systems preffered mode of transport.
Same with shipping and pleasure craft boats/swimmers.

[jonbuoy]

a shame they dont instead mandatorise not driving into shit.Most people manage, most of the time...

I'm pretty sure it is already mandatory not to drive into the back of someone. If 28% of accidents are rear end collisions it will make a huge difference. Especially to bikes.

With autonomous cars comes the end of an era for speeding, traffic violations and more than likely individual car ownership over the next 50 -100 years. Human piloted cars will be around for a while yet but it won't be long before they are deemed to dangerous.

[R650R]

I'm pretty sure it is already mandatory not to drive into the back of someone. If 28% of accidents are rear end collisions it will make a huge difference. Especially to bikes.



Your allowed to, you just get a fine for failing to stop in time, $150. I've been hit twice but haven't decided to drive into someone else just yet ;)

[onearmedbandit]

Leaked footage of the new software doing its thing...

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.liveleak.com/ll_embed?f=10c1ae716809" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I think some work is still needed, as it hit the people but then tried to kill the driver by aiming for the wall.

[Akzle]

I'm pretty sure it is already mandatory not to drive into the back of someone. If 28% of accidents are rear end collisions it will make a huge difference. Especially to bikes.

WHATTTTTTT!?!?!?!!? you mean people infringe legislation by failing to stop short?!?!?! how dare they! the police should do something. shirley.

[Banditbandit]

WHATTTTTTT!?!?!?!!? you mean people infringe legislation by failing to stop short?!?!?! how dare they! the police should do something. shirley.

I'm wondering what an ACT MP has to do with anything?

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ken-shirley-in-the-debating-chamber-parliament-during-question-time-picture-id55784813?k=6&m=55784813&s=594x594&w=0&h=WPf1orO0gj2BYu2HZdsWYeTIH49_YIDsVlT8k1R8y_Q=

[george formby]

With autonomous cars comes the end of an era for speeding, traffic violations and more than likely individual car ownership over the next 50 -100 years. Human piloted cars will be around for a while yet but it won't be long before they are deemed to dangerous.

Now that's a point. As the self drive fleet increases the Police Christmas fund will get less and less.:Police:

[Akzle]

I'm wondering what an ACT MP has to do with anything?


you and everyone else <_<

[buggerit]

Lets see if the pollies strart with the ministerial fleet to show their confedence in the new tech:yes:

[pritch]

Build roads that don't wear out? Fuck, I bet no one has thought of that before!

Certainly not in this country anyway.

In Europe the road surfaces I saw were probably approaching half a metre thick, not half an inch - perhaps - like here. When they demolish buildings in Europe the rubble is crushed to use in road works. After the Christchurch earthquake there were TV pictures of truck after truck heading to the dump. Much of the contents of those trucks could have been used for road repairs. I understand they needed some?

We do have a lot of roads and a relatively small population but the quality of some of the local road repairs is approaching farcical.

/RANT

[Dave-]

Certainly not in this country anyway.

In Europe the road surfaces I saw were probably approaching half a metre thick, not half an inch - perhaps - like here. When they demolish buildings in Europe the rubble is crushed to use in road works. After the Christchurch earthquake there were TV pictures of truck after truck heading to the dump. Much of the contents of those trucks could have been used for road repairs. I understand they needed some?

We do have a lot of roads and a relatively small population but the quality of some of the local road repairs is approaching farcical.

/RANT

Doesn't matter how thick it is, if you drive over it enough it will wear out.

The original point was that the autonomous drivers were so accurate that the road wore out in a very specific spot. This is going to happen no matter what you make the road of.

[James Deuce]

http://motorbikewriter.com/driverless-cars-coming-soon/

[Grumph]

Certainly not in this country anyway.

In Europe the road surfaces I saw were probably approaching half a metre thick, not half an inch - perhaps - like here. When they demolish buildings in Europe the rubble is crushed to use in road works. After the Christchurch earthquake there were TV pictures of truck after truck heading to the dump. Much of the contents of those trucks could have been used for road repairs. I understand they needed some?

We do have a lot of roads and a relatively small population but the quality of some of the local road repairs is approaching farcical.

/RANT

A fair amount of the ChCh rubble was used to reclaim land at the port - and the dump area most of it went to was basically sand so it's improved that area in the long term.
Road metal in Canterbury is easier to get than the rest of NZ - just scratch off the topsoil on most of the plains and you've got gravel. Cheaper than crushing rubble.

[george formby]

Lets see if the pollies strart with the ministerial fleet to show their confedence in the new tech:yes:

I don't think J turns and anti terrorist tactics are in the program. Hmmmm, I wonder if the NZ gummint even worries about stuff like this on home soil. Ok, how much consideration it gets.



Onward, on with the thread. A growing family of scenarios facing autonomous vehicles.

[jonbuoy]

A cheap and simple Transponder could be fitted to all new cars and bikes to allow driverless cars to "see" them and their speed and direction. Pedestrians are the biggest problem. It might also be a bit tricky for a driverless car to tell the difference between something like a cardboard box or a bag of rags falling off the back of a truck and a small dog or child. Thermal camera might do it but maybe the kid is just wrapped up really well for the winter. A human can tell the difference in a blink of an eye but maybe not so easy for a computer.

How long before we all get a tag implanted to ensure driverless cars "see" us?

[RainMan303]

No benefits? Imagine you can page your car to .....

Car "ownership" is on the way out. Pretty soon none of us will own cars. Why bother buying a car just so it could be parked 22 hours each day doing nothing. With autonomous cars we'll simply "order" a car to pick us up and take us wherever on demand. Unlike today's car hire model, we won't have to go anywhere to pickup the car to use; the car will come to us.

I imagine in the future we'll simply subscribe to a transit served much the same way we subscribe to internet or rubbish pickup service and pay for usage. Various companies will distinguish their themselves by the tidiness of their fleet, wait times for pickup, and price of service.

Btw, I have driven a Tesla in autonomous mode few months ago, and it was quite an experience.


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[Dave-]

Car "ownership" is on the way out. Pretty soon none of us will own cars. Why bother buying a car just so it could be parked 22 hours each day doing nothing. With autonomous cars we'll simply "order" a car to pick us up and take us wherever on demand. Unlike today's car hire model, we won't have to go anywhere to pickup the car to use; the car will come to us.

I imagine in the future we'll simply subscribe to a transit served much the same way we subscribe to internet or rubbish pickup service and pay for usage. Various companies will distinguish their themselves by the tidiness of their fleet, wait times for pickup, and price of service.

Btw, I have driven a Tesla in autonomous mode few months ago, and it was quite an experience.


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I hope they let drunk/high people be the sole occupant.

Bars, clubs, pubs and restaurants will boom again.

[R650R]

Car "ownership" is on the way out. Pretty soon none of us will own cars. Why bother buying a car just so it could be parked 22 hours each day doing nothing.

Sounds like what Singapore already has, google car ownership there and Certificate of Entitlement. You basically bid against other people for the right to own a car, that right only lasts 5-10 years and often costs more than the new car itself!!! Then they have massive user pays road tax also.... trouble is here they'd only get the tax part functioning properly.....

Why buy a house when you only use it 8hrs a day (if you have a life). Why buy an oven or a bbq.... Its called freedom and having the free feeling to travel WHEN you want to and WHERE you want to, not just to destinations and times governed by a poorly run/subsidsed State service.
In places like London I loved their tube network and high speed regional rail networks and did the vehicleless life for awhile, but private motoring is one of the greatest freedoms humans have ever had. Use it or lose it.

[onearmedbandit]

Car "ownership" is on the way out. Pretty soon none of us will own cars. Why bother buying a car just so it could be parked 22 hours each day doing nothing. With autonomous cars we'll simply "order" a car to pick us up and take us wherever on demand. Unlike today's car hire model, we won't have to go anywhere to pickup the car to use; the car will come to us.



Pretty soon? Hmmm I would think not. There's too much tied up in ownership pride for one thing. Cars to a lot of people are status symbols, reflections of their personality, objects of passion, objects to aspire to, objects to dream about and work hard to achieve, projects, labours of lust, long hours and sweat.

Then there's also an entire industry built around selling them and modifying them.

[ellipsis]

...trains were good...trains are still good...we should have trains...and if not, autonomous hover craft trains with lots of cocktails on board...

[F5 Dave]

Absolute rubbish I think. It ignores human nature, or at least the non lab rat type.

Explain why we don't all use taxis?

Who wants to wait? I want to go to work now. Oh. A 4 hr wait you say? while they clear the backlog. Right.

[jonbuoy]

Absolute rubbish I think. It ignores human nature, or at least the non lab rat type.

Explain why we don't all use taxis?

Who wants to wait? I want to go to work now. Oh. A 4 hr wait you say? while they clear the backlog. Right.

Maybe if your in a remote location - in which case you would need a personal car. If every single car currently on the roads was an autonomous vehicle you wouldn't have to wait long. I can see it being more like private train carriages that pick you up from your door. On motorways cars can be linked up taking less space and sharing power. You can be shuffled around to make sure you hit your exit correctly. Maybe not in our lifetimes but it will come.

We all like Riding or Driving for "fun" on empty roads but how many people enjoy trudging along in heavy traffic nose to tail? Does anyone actually enjoy driving to the shops or would you rather a car just took you there while you read a book, watched a movie or just chatted and passed the time of day?

[spanner spinner]

A cheap and simple Transponder could be fitted to all new cars and bikes to allow driverless cars to "see" them and their speed and direction. Pedestrians are the biggest problem. It might also be a bit tricky for a driverless car to tell the difference between something like a cardboard box or a bag of rags falling off the back of a truck and a small dog or child. Thermal camera might do it but maybe the kid is just wrapped up really well for the winter. A human can tell the difference in a blink of an eye but maybe not so easy for a computer.

How long before we all get a tag implanted to ensure driverless cars "see" us?

Current cars can already tell the difference between a cardboard box and a pedestrian. I went to a Audi Q7 launch a little while ago and one of the displays was showing how the city assist systems work. An empty cardboard box (small fridge size) was thrown out in front of the Q7, it ran this down as it recognized it as cardboard box and as the safest thing to do is to run it over so it did so. But when one of the people running the display stepped out in front of the Q7 it first pulsed the brakes and shook the steering wheel to wake the driver up and if you did nothing it braked the Q7 to a stop. link below to an description of the different city assist systems.

https://audi-illustrated.com/en/a4-avant-2015/driver-assistance-systems

[RainMan303]

Pretty soon? Hmmm I would think not. There's too much tied up in ownership pride for one thing. Cars to a lot of people are status symbols, reflections of their personality, objects of passion, objects to aspire to, objects to dream about and work hard to achieve, projects, labours of lust, long hours and sweat.
Hate to tell you this, but we're in the minority anymore. Motorcyclists by default are the types that you're talking about. Most younger people today are not petrol heads. People used the same logic when automatic transmissions were becoming popular. Remember the talk of how automatics take the joy of driving away? And where are we now? Maybe cars that you can drive will still be available.... but it will cost you extra to put in a steering wheel and the pedals in it much like it does for a manual transmission today for some cars. It'll be called "The Retro Package" lol



Then there's also an entire industry built around selling them and modifying them.
Who would have ever thought General Motors would ever have to file for bankruptcy!?



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[onearmedbandit]

Hate to tell you this, but we're in the minority anymore. Motorcyclists by default are the types that you're talking about. Most younger people today are not petrol heads. People used the same logic when automatic transmissions were becoming popular. Remember the talk of how automatics take the joy of driving away? And where are we now? Maybe cars that you can drive will still be available.... but it will cost you extra to put in a steering wheel and the pedals in it much like it does for a manual transmission today for some cars. It'll be called "The Retro Package" lol




Hate to tell you this, but having been involved in car sales for longer than I care to remember I still see buyers making emotive decisions. Whether it's a $5000 car or a $50,000, people will or won't buy it because of the colour/wheels/engine/interior/styling/'flashness' etc etc. In fact no one I've dealt with has ever said 'I just need a car to get me from A-B, here's my money, surprise me'.

[R650R]

Just had a though re the sharing of these electric/self drive vehicles... if you've ever had shared vehicles in a large workplace you'll know where im coming from...
Other peoples pic crumbs, ciggy ash and god knows what else seat stains etc....
As it will be pointless owning your own vehicle if they will all perform the same....

Got new jandals for the cage today, tyre companies will be hit hard. There will be no market for performance tyres or even different sizes if we are all forced to use the same self driven vehicles.

[RainMan303]

Just had a though re the sharing of these electric/self drive vehicles... if you've ever had shared vehicles in a large workplace you'll know where im coming from...
Other peoples pic crumbs, ciggy ash and god knows what else seat stains etc....
As it will be pointless owning your own vehicle if they will all perform the same....

Got new jandals for the cage today, tyre companies will be hit hard. There will be no market for performance tyres or even different sizes if we are all forced to use the same self driven vehicles.

Yes, the world will be very different. Tire companies, muffler manufacturers, fuel injection manufacturers, the whole drivetrain of an Electric is different. Companies will have to adjust or die.


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[jonbuoy]

Current cars can already tell the difference between a cardboard box and a pedestrian. I went to a Audi Q7 launch a little while ago and one of the displays was showing how the city assist systems work. An empty cardboard box (small fridge size) was thrown out in front of the Q7, it ran this down as it recognized it as cardboard box and as the safest thing to do is to run it over so it did so. But when one of the people running the display stepped out in front of the Q7 it first pulsed the brakes and shook the steering wheel to wake the driver up and if you did nothing it braked the Q7 to a stop. link below to an description of the different city assist systems.

https://audi-illustrated.com/en/a4-avant-2015/driver-assistance-systems

That's pretty impressive, I wonder how it would cope with a kid in a Halloween costume made from Cardboard boxes. Still must be a very smart system.

[Akzle]

That's pretty impressive, I wonder how it would cope with a kid in a Halloween costume made from Cardboard boxes. Still must be a very smart system.

different thermal and radar signatures.
teh laserscanning happens at pace too.

[F5 Dave]

Maybe if your in a remote location - in which case you would need a personal car. If every single car currently on the roads was an autonomous vehicle you wouldn't have to wait long. I can see it being more like private train carriages that pick you up from your door. On motorways cars can be linked up taking less space and sharing power. You can be shuffled around to make sure you hit your exit correctly. Maybe not in our lifetimes but it will come.

We all like Riding or Driving for "fun" on empty roads but how many people enjoy trudging along in heavy traffic nose to tail? Does anyone actually enjoy driving to the shops or would you rather a car just took you there while you read a book, watched a movie or just chatted and passed the time of day?
Yes so it pisses on the dramatically fewer cars argument.

For it to work in the suburbs where most people live you would be stopping outside to pick people up. I guess if they were all organised and considerate it might be OK. Good luck with that..

[Voltaire]

Hate to tell you this, but having been involved in car sales for longer than I care to remember I still see buyers making emotive decisions. Whether it's a $5000 car or a $50,000, people will or won't buy it because of the colour/wheels/engine/interior/styling/'flashness' etc etc. In fact no one I've dealt with has ever said 'I just need a car to get me from A-B, here's my money, surprise me'.

I'm a petrol head but I think I have looked under the bonnet of my Subaru about twice in the last year.Other than a service I've spent $0 on it... I think its because although its powerful/fast with a 5 speed manual box pretty boring to drive around Auckland in.
I did waste a lot of hours researching it.
If it got stolen tomorrow I would not shed a tear.

I even ..gasp... catch the train if I'm working in the city, give me time to read the paper on my phone.
I think self drive will catch on the congested cities pretty fast.

[jonbuoy]

Yes so it pisses on the dramatically fewer cars argument.

For it to work in the suburbs where most people live you would be stopping outside to pick people up. I guess if they were all organised and considerate it might be OK. Good luck with that..

No - you will order a car and tell it where you want to go. It will turn up and take you there. No one is going to be with you. How rush hour will work is another story. Might not be less cars but if you don't need a car every day or your flexible about times you can use a pool car - or driverless taxi whatever you want to call them.

Most of us don't have to worry about the logistics - we will be dead and gone by then.

[RainMan303]

That's pretty impressive, I wonder how it would cope with a kid in a Halloween costume made from Cardboard boxes. Still must be a very smart system.

Good point. I don't expect the autonomous cars to be 100% accident proof, but I do expect the net result will be vastly reduced number of accidents and deaths on the roads. Personally, I'd rather ride my bike surrounded by a bunch of computer-driven cars than those driven by humans....if they still let us, that is... :)


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[F5 Dave]

No - you will order a car and tell it where you want to go. It will turn up and take you there. No one is going to be with you. How rush hour will work is another story. Might not be less cars but if you don't need a car every day or your flexible about times you can use a pool car - or driverless taxi whatever you want to call them.

Most of us don't have to worry about the logistics - we will be dead and gone by then.

Oh boy! So a business plan would be to have enough cars to serve me, and every one else. that would sit around for 22hrs a day inactive but somehow charge a fare I'm willing to pay and still turn a profit.

Hmm. So everyone isn't using Taxis now because?

And don't get me wrong. I'd love to not have to drive all the tedious trips to work or dropping kids off at school. And especially when I was racing far meetings to arrive fresh and leave tired without a care.

[Hemi Makutu]

Tesla rudely butt bangs bike..

www.cycleworld.com/can-autonomous-cars-detect-motorcycles

[MarkH]

Tesla rudely butt bangs bike..

www.cycleworld.com/can-autonomous-cars-detect-motorcycles

I don't see the big deal, it isn't like humans don't fail to see motorcycles as well. At least autonomous cars can be improved and upgraded to avoid repeating this kind of thing, that's better than you get with humans! Let's face it - humans suck, so many fuckin' idiots among them!

[jonbuoy]

Oh boy! So a business plan would be to have enough cars to serve me, and every one else. that would sit around for 22hrs a day inactive but somehow charge a fare I'm willing to pay and still turn a profit.

Hmm. So everyone isn't using Taxis now because?

And don't get me wrong. I'd love to not have to drive all the tedious trips to work or dropping kids off at school. And especially when I was racing far meetings to arrive fresh and leave tired without a care.

I don't take a taxi to work or the shops because it's expensive. That's the main reason. The biggest expense would be the drivers wages. How many hours a day does your car, if you own one, sit idle? If you parked it up and knew you weren't going to need it overnight you could send it out to "work" for you. If you arrive at work and you don't need it for 8 hours you can send it out to take someone else to work or take your kids to school.

[Akzle]

I don't take a taxi to work or the shops because it's expensive. That's the main reason. The biggest expense would be the drivers wages. How many hours a day does your car, if you own one, sit idle? If you parked it up and knew you weren't going to need it overnight you could send it out to "work" for you. If you arrive at work and you don't need it for 8 hours you can send it out to take someone else to work or take your kids to school.

I think the issue is (in town) 100% demand 0730 - 0930, 1430-1800, and <30% the rest of the time. unless shit radically changes (how and when people work) the bottle necking is the issue.

tradies vans n utes too.

[F5 Dave]

I don't take a taxi to work or the shops because it's expensive. That's the main reason. The biggest expense would be the drivers wages. How many hours a day does your car, if you own one, sit idle? If you parked it up and knew you weren't going to need it overnight you could send it out to "work" for you. If you arrive at work and you don't need it for 8 hours you can send it out to take someone else to work or take your kids to school.
So when its found, someone has taken a dump in it and stolen the expensive batteries.

Cars wear out, energy costs. Driverless cabs are still going to have to earn a profit for their owners on top of that base cost well in excess of a std car. . , at least for a while. When they come down in price I'd buy one to park up 22hrs but use it whenever I please, leave stuff in it while I go dirtbike riding, or do more than one trip to the shops and not have to return home.

Virtual chocolate fish for the 3 reasons the picture is relevant and borderline comic genius.

[F5 Dave]

I think the issue is (in town) 100% demand 0730 - 0930, 1430-1800, and <30% the rest of the time. unless shit radically changes (how and when people work) the bottle necking is the issue.

tradies vans n utes too.
Not just trades, but those of us who spurn car ownership in favour of a practicable vehicle that we can move race and dirtbikes around in to further our motorcycle addiction and even get large shit from M10 home.

[F5 Dave]

I can foresee a future where small bands of retro rebels unearth or liberate bikes and corollas from museums. Steal a dinosaur from the zoo (they'll have cloned a bunch by then, l saw a documentary about it some while back with Sam Neill I think) and start grinding them up for fossil fuel (turns out that wasn't a myth) so they can go hooning. . . and get to work on time.

The death toll will be horrific.

[jonbuoy]

There are issues for sure. Dave that's the beauty of it - if it's a single passenger you can get away with a single seater car with computer control you could fit two in a single lane. If your on a long journey with kids and luggage you order a bigger vehicle, if you want to pick up some 2.4 m lengths of wood you order a load carrier or a bike carrier. If your heading across Europe/America/Australia you order a "camper". Fall asleep in the UK and wake up deep in Europe - put the kettle on and watch the world fly by.

[jonbuoy]

I can foresee a future where small bands of retro rebels unearth or liberate bikes and corollas from museums. Steal a dinosaur from the zoo (they'll have cloned a bunch by then, l saw a documentary about it some while back with Sam Neill I think) and start grinding them up for fossil fuel (turns out that wasn't a myth) so they can go hooning. . . and get to work on time.

The death toll will be horrific.

:laugh: In 50 years or so taking your "driven" car out will be like seeing someone in a Model T or a horse drawn carriage. I'm sure driven cars will be around much the same as vintage cars and horse and carts or sailboats are now. Purely for entertainment.

[Jeff Sichoe]

The average age of the NZ fleet is 14 years so you'll all have a decade or so to get used to the idea overseas before it hits home.

[F5 Dave]

Sweet I'll be able to tell the missus her car is newer than average. . . At least this year.
The Van however should be chugging a yard glass.

[nerrrd]

Still think all the hype is deliberately overly optimistic at this stage, probably to justify the ongoing (presumerably) massive investment.

It remains to be seen whether it can function reliably enough in the real world, and that the benefits for the population at large when it does will justify the cost.

I'm not saying the tech isn't there, I just think the application of it might have a few more real world logistical hurdles than we're being led to believe.

[Akzle]

The Van however should be chugging a yard glass.

:scratch: ... it's 16?

[pritch]

That's pretty impressive, I wonder how it would cope with a kid in a Halloween costume made from Cardboard boxes. Still must be a very smart system.

Or worse yet a little kid hiding in the cardboard box. Or miscreant teenagers who have put concrete blocks in a box? I was told early that you never run over a cardboard box.

[F5 Dave]

:scratch: ... it's 16?
At 16 you use a funnel and a hose. Sheesh where were you brought up?
Oh, right.

[spanner spinner]

Or worse yet a little kid hiding in the cardboard box. Or miscreant teenagers who have put concrete blocks in a box? I was told early that you never run over a cardboard box.

Q7 uses a combination of cameras, ultrasonic sensors (for close range) & microwave radar to discern what is in front of it. it can easily discern between a empty box and a full one. Radar echo will easily discern the mass of the object in front of it, if the kid is hiding in a box it will avoid it as the radar will easily see the kid inside the box. The bigger question is what is all that microwave energy doing to someone riding a bike? not a problem in a car as the steel reflects the energy, leathers aren't so good at blocking microwaves.

[MarkH]

The bigger question is what is all that microwave energy doing to someone riding a bike? not a problem in a car as the steel reflects the energy, leathers aren't so good at blocking microwaves.

Just as well the police don't use microwaves to detect the speed of vehicles then . . . oh, wait.

[Dave-]

The bigger question is what is all that microwave energy doing to someone riding a bike? not a problem in a car as the steel reflects the energy, leathers aren't so good at blocking microwaves.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

:no:

I'm done. I'm out of this thread. RIP.

[R650R]

Just as well the police don't use microwaves to detect the speed of vehicles then . . . oh, wait.

Apparently these new famcy cars are pissing off people who own radar detectors......

[R650R]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11754775

[F5 Dave]

Push the clutch in buddy.
Surely you have a clutch or did you buy a gurlz car?

[Akzle]

skynet is active

[F5 Dave]

Sarah Connor's uncle?

[jonbuoy]

Push the clutch in buddy.
Surely you have a clutch or did you buy a gurlz car?

Or just the foot brake :facepalm: I wonder how much his life insurance policy was worth? Sounds like either gross stupidity or someone trying to commit suicide without it being recorded as suicide.

[Cosmik de Bris]

Q7 uses a combination of cameras, ultrasonic sensors (for close range) & microwave radar to discern what is in front of it. it can easily discern between a empty box and a full one. Radar echo will easily discern the mass of the object in front of it, if the kid is hiding in a box it will avoid it as the radar will easily see the kid inside the box. The bigger question is what is all that microwave energy doing to someone riding a bike? not a problem in a car as the steel reflects the energy, leathers aren't so good at blocking microwaves.

There is no way radar of any kind can measure the mass of something and your other mis-conceptions have been dealt with by someone else.

[roogazza]

Or just the foot brake :facepalm: I wonder how much his life insurance policy was worth? Sounds like either gross stupidity or someone trying to commit suicide without it being recorded as suicide.

exactly, sounds like bullshit to me,just stamp on the brake if ya have to !!!
Of course they'll call all sorts of experts and finally come up NOTHIN !

[spanner spinner]

There is no way radar of any kind can measure the mass of something and your other mis-conceptions have been dealt with by someone else.

Yay I have finally wound some one up, took you guys long enough. Yes you are correct the radar will have issues "seeing" inside the box. The conspiracy theory '"microwaves are going to kill us all" should have given it away that it was a wind up.

Not that some one isn't working on it https://www.fraunhofer.de/en/press/research-news/2016/april/radar-with-360-vision.html'.

The reason I did this is that it is more likely that the software running the system is programmed to look for certain shaped objects (ie people shaped) and if the object doesn't fit it's parameters it is programmed to ignore it. So it runs it down. If you cut in-front of a self driving car and the cross reference of you riding your bike is not in the data base or you appear in a area your not realy meant to be (lane splitting) does the same happen?

This quote from Mercedes says it all
In comments published last week by Car and Driver, Mercedes-Benz executive Christoph von Hugo said that the carmaker’s future autonomous cars will save the car’s driver and passengers, even if that means sacrificing the lives of pedestrians, in a situation where those are the only two options.

“If you know you can save at least one person, at least save that one,” von Hugo said at the Paris Motor Show. “Save the one in the car. If all you know for sure is that one death can be prevented, then that’s your first priority.”

The only option is to have the same technology "riding" your bike for you so that your bike can either talk to the vehicles around or fit into the vehicle stream in a pattern that is recognized. Once again i bring up the question, would you be happy to be a pillion on your bike as it will be doing the riding.

The bike manufactures are already looking at these technology's why else did Yamaha bother to build a bike riding robot other than to test systems that can "ride" a motorcycle, shit load of money other wise for a toy.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/motobot-yamaha-motorcycle-robot-beat-humans-on-racetrack/

[Cosmik de Bris]

Yay I have finally wound some one up, took you guys long enough. Yes you are correct the radar will have issues "seeing" inside the box. The conspiracy theory '"microwaves are going to kill us all" should have given it away that it was a wind up.


Oh really! The old "I was just joking" excuse to hide ignorance.

[jonbuoy]

There is no way radar of any kind can measure the mass of something and your other mis-conceptions have been dealt with by someone else.

Really? Based on what research? You think an empty cardboard box will have the same radar signature as a cardboard box filled with a water and bone filled human inside it?

[Big Dog]

Really? Based on what research? You think an empty cardboard box will have the same radar signature as a cardboard box filled with a water and bone filled human inside it?
That's as awful lot of signatures to collect... are they also going to collect signatures of living vs dead for said risk analysis?

Three larger the data set you give the system to sort add assess the longer or will take to get a result.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

[Akzle]

That's as awful lot of signatures to collect... are they also going to collect signatures of living vs dead for said risk analysis?

Three larger the data set you give the system to sort add assess the longer or will take to get a result.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

nah dog. check out laserscanning terrain and architecture mapping.

shit's quick.
radar is 300km/s or so, lookahead preliminary id, then close range affirmation. most people's cellphones could process all this quicker and more accurately than most people can think.

[RainMan303]

We're now getting into a discussion on whether the system can achieve perfection. Let's not make the 'perfection' get in the way of 'good enough'. If you figure we can reduce road deaths down by 95%+, then the system is working. We will never ( I know, never is a long time) reduce deaths to zero, but I believe autonomous cars (and airplane, and ship) will get us a long way there....having said that, I'm not looking forward to giving up my conventional motorbike.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Akzle]

We're now getting into a discussion on whether the system can achieve perfection.
what fucking thread are you reading?
we're discussing sensor capability and processor throughput, with a side of machine-ethics.


Let's not make the 'perfection' get in the way of 'good enough'.
yeeeeea maaaaaaatteeeeee, she'll be right.


If you figure we can reduce road deaths down by 95%+, then the system is working. i have a plan for that.
vote akzle.

[Akzle]

this is not the link i wanted (http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2013-09/google-self-driving-car) but i cant find. there's a military truck which can bowl along at 60, self drivey, whiley laserscanning.

here's some shit, though:
http://truepointscanning.com/Sample_Images_for_3D_Laser_Scanning_Services.html
http://safecarnews.com/us-darpa-demos-low-cost-laser-scanning-tech_j612/
http://velodynelidar.com/news.php

[jonbuoy]

That's as awful lot of signatures to collect... are they also going to collect signatures of living vs dead for said risk analysis?

Three larger the data set you give the system to sort add assess the longer or will take to get a result.

Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

It doesn't need to collect an exact signature just to know swerve or not swerve one thing we aren't short of is memory. A human body should give a very different return- what variations would there be- pram, small child crawling, toddler, young child small adult, adult, old man. They make a few versions of marine radar that are optimised for picking up flocks of birds.

The child in a box argument is a bit extreme but depending on the strength and sensitivity of the system it should see the box and the child as too different objects - albeit very close together.


http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC78619/lbna25762enn.pdf

[Akzle]

It doesn't need to collect an exact signature just to know swerve or not swerve one thing we aren't short of is memory. A human body should give a very different return- what variations would there be- pram, small child crawling, toddler, young child small adult, adult, old man. They make a few versions of marine radar that are optimised for picking up flocks of birds.

The child in a box argument is a bit extreme but depending on the strength and sensitivity of the system it should see the box and the child as too different objects - albeit very close together.


http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JRC78619/lbna25762enn.pdf

here's where we can exclude swaths of data quite comfortably... anything circlar (due to the absence of circles in nature) warrants closer inspection (bikes, cars, prams etc) every duoped with a temperature of ,say, 34 -42 degrees, the same. probably add in cows and mooses and shit. checks for cellphone/bluetooth/gps emitters_... but everything else just gets preliminaried and discarded.

cardboard would hardly show up on radar.

[jonbuoy]

here's where we can exclude swaths of data quite comfortably... anything circlar (due to the absence of circles in nature) warrants closer inspection (bikes, cars, prams etc) every duoped with a temperature of ,say, 34 -42 degrees, the same. probably add in cows and mooses and shit. checks for cellphone/bluetooth/gps emitters_... but everything else just gets preliminaried and discarded.

cardboard would hardly show up on radar.

Exactly - no worse than a thick winter jacket. Or smart clothing with built in tags that respond to a cars sensor query.