Mobil 98 petrol

[Moise]

Looks like they are changing from 95 to 98 at all of their service stations, but keeping the price the same. $1.85 per litre in Manurewa yesterday compared to $2.10 for Ultimate at BP Greenlane.

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[roogazza]

We have Gulf down here in the Horowhenua which keep the prices at some of the lowest in the country.
$1.61 last week for 91 Oct.
I use this in an almost new Falcooon ,works just fine.
The bike gets a diet of 95 Oct .

I note we're back at $1.73 this week .(for 91 that is.)

[jasonu]

I remember when it hit $1 per liter. You would have thought the world was going to end.
I was in NZ when it hit $2 per liter. You would have thought the world was going to end.

[AllanB]

I don't look at the per liter cost - just the final bill ......

[scumdog]

How much ethanol is in it??

[Gremlin]

I don't look at the per liter cost - just the final bill ......
Try filling a bike with 35L+ ... highest bill in 5+ years was $85 :crazy:

[russd7]

I remember when it hit $1 per liter. You would have thought the world was going to end.
I was in NZ when it hit $2 per liter. You would have thought the world was going to end.

fark mate, i remember when it hit $1.00 a gallon, jeezus, all hell was gonna break loose, the price of food was gonna go through the roof, the country was headed for a depression worse than the great depression ect ect. don't know if any of that happened or not cause i was to damned busy being a kid

[AllanB]

Try filling a bike with 35L+ ... highest bill in 5+ years was $85 :crazy:

Just squirted a hundred dollars into the XR6's tank ..........

[caspernz]

Looks like they are changing from 95 to 98 at all of their service stations, but keeping the price the same. $1.85 per litre in Manurewa yesterday compared to $2.10 for Ultimate at BP Greenlane.

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Highly unlikely they'll ditch 95 for 98, the logistics behind such a move simply don't work at present.

Friday as in yesterday was just another price war day, so you'd have seen bigger variations than normal, depending on whether individual sites were partaking in the price drop or not. It's that simple.

[jasonu]

fark mate, i remember when it hit $1.00 a gallon,

You must be old enough to be nearly dead...

Remember careless days...what a cock up that was.

[Moise]

Highly unlikely they'll ditch 95 for 98, the logistics behind such a move simply don't work at present.

Friday as in yesterday was just another price war day, so you'd have seen bigger variations than normal, depending on whether individual sites were partaking in the price drop or not. It's that simple.
It's happening. I have some Mobil gift cards to use up, and every place I've been in the last fortnight, including Kopu, had 98. Even some of the smaller stations have changed over.

Just checked the fine print on their website. The 98 is E10, so no more for the R1. Back to Ultimate.

Edit:. Read that wrong, it's just some Wellington stations that have E10. That's confusing!

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[roogazza]

You must be old enough to be nearly dead...

Remember careless days...what a cock up that was.

A quick Sunday fang in 1972 on my Mach4 cost me $4 ! 4 bucks !

But what a 4 dollar ride !!!!!!!! :laugh: :devil2:

[1billyboy]

2 shillings and 3pence for a gallon For my BSA B33 back when I started riding 55 years ago:drool:

[scumdog]

Just squirted a hundred dollars into the XR6's tank ..........
Put $185 into my F100 hot-rod, only half a tank-full!

[pritch]

How much ethanol is in it??

Good question. Some of their pumps had warning signs that they had ethanol in the fuel. Best not to use that if you have a plastic fuel tank.

[Oakie]

Good question. Some of their pumps had warning signs that they had ethanol in the fuel. Best not to use that if you have a plastic fuel tank.

Or a particular so sort of fuel line. Didn't Hyosung have a problem with fuels containing ethanol?

[GrayWolf]

It's happening. I have some Mobil gift cards to use up, and every place I've been in the last fortnight, including Kopu, had 98. Even some of the smaller stations have changed over.

Just checked the fine print on their website. The 98 is E10, so no more for the R1. Back to Ultimate.

Edit:. Read that wrong, it's just some Wellington stations that have E10. That's confusing!

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I think you'll find ALL 98 in NZ has 10% Ethanol content.

What I find REALLY bloody irritating with BP is all the garages have that ULTIMATE signage, even though not many actually carry 98 {ultimate}.

[caspernz]

I think you'll find ALL 98 in NZ has 10% Ethanol content.

What I find REALLY bloody irritating with BP is all the garages have that ULTIMATE signage, even though not many actually carry 98 {ultimate}.

That Ultimate signage can be annoying, as they also apply that Ultimate tag to their diesel nowadays, which confuses many of us...:confused:

[Moise]

I think you'll find ALL 98 in NZ has 10% Ethanol content.

What I find REALLY bloody irritating with BP is all the garages have that ULTIMATE signage, even though not many actually carry 98 {ultimate}.
I think it's just Gull 98 that is E10. There should be a label on the pump stating if the fuel contains ethanol.

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[old slider]

Thanks for alerting us Newbies about ethanol, I was running low on a recent Fat Bob ride and had to fill up at BP I used their 98 because I couldn't see any 95. hopefully its ok.

The price of fuel per litre still appears cheaper than buying water.

[Old Steve]

There is no specification for 98 octane petrol in New Zealand – take that from one who wrote the petrol specs when ULP was introduced, only specs for 91 ULP and 95 ULP. I think that originally BP separated 95 ULP deliveries which had a Research Octane of 98 and sold it as Ultimate 98. Marsden Point is a Motor Octane ( MON) limited refinery, they often have to give away RON to meet the Min of Energy petrol specs.

Petrol has two octane numbers, RON and MON, and these are usually about 10 octane numbers different, that’s the petrol’s ‘sensitivity’. But if the refinery is MON limited, then they often produce petrol with a higher RON and a wider sensitivity to meet the minimum MON spec. Normally 95 ULP would be 95 RON / 85 MON, but sometimes Marsden Point would produce 98 RON / 85 MON.

Most non-Auckland petrol now comes from overseas so the companies selling 98 octane petrol probably order specific product for that grade.

Incidentally, the USA generally specifies octane as average octane. USA Octane = RON + MON/2. If your Harley specifies 91 Octane, then it’s calling for 96RON / 86 MON – the equivalent of New Zealand 95 ULP. Don’t go putting NZ 91 ULP in a Harley which specifies 91 octane gasoline.

[old slider]

There is no specification for 98 octane petrol in New Zealand – take that from one who wrote the petrol specs when ULP was introduced, only specs for 91 ULP and 95 ULP. I think that originally BP separated 95 ULP deliveries which had a Research Octane of 98 and sold it as Ultimate 98. Marsden Point is a Motor Octane ( MON) limited refinery, they often have to give away RON to meet the Min of Energy petrol specs.

Petrol has two octane numbers, RON and MON, and these are usually about 10 octane numbers different, that’s the petrol’s ‘sensitivity’. But if the refinery is MON limited, then they often produce petrol with a higher RON and a wider sensitivity to meet the minimum MON spec. Normally 96 ULP would be 95 RON / 85 MON, but sometimes Marsden Point would produce 98 RON / 85 MON.

Most non-Auckland petrol now comes from overseas so the companies selling 98 octane petrol probably order specific product for that grade.

Incidentally, the USA generally specifies octane as average octane. USA Octane = RON + MON/2. If your Harley specifies 91 Octane, then it’s calling for 96RON / 86 MON – the equivalent of New Zealand 95 ULP. Don’t go putting NZ 91 ULP in a Harley which specifies 91 octane gasoline.


Awesome explanation, thanks Old Steve, I did use 91 and thought the bike ran reasonable, after changing to 95 the difference was quite noticeable, the best thing I purchased was the Screaming Eagle EFI super tuner, was a bit sceptical before the purchase, but not anymore, especially with having the altered exhaust and the CV removed.

[GrayWolf]

Thanks for alerting us Newbies about ethanol, I was running low on a recent Fat Bob ride and had to fill up at BP I used their 98 because I couldn't see any 95. hopefully its ok.

The price of fuel per litre still appears cheaper than buying water.

Read your bikes handbook... Yamaha seem to use seals/diaphragms that are sensitive to ethanol, and some metals can get 'corrosion'?? in the fuel system from ethanol {water content]???
Age of your bike is also a factor..

[Crasherfromwayback]

Try filling a bike with 35L+ ... highest bill in 5+ years was $85 :crazy:

Pah. Try an Jaguar XJR tank for size. That, and being supercharged, they drink it like I do Steinlager.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Don’t go putting NZ 91 ULP in a Harley which specifies 91 octane gasoline.

There are still plenty of people on this site that swear 91 is better for their bikes...

[old slider]

Read your bikes handbook... Yamaha seem to use seals/diaphragms that are sensitive to ethanol, and some metals can get 'corrosion'?? in the fuel system from ethanol {water content]???
Age of your bike is also a factor..


The American handbook says fuel octane ratings (R+M)/2 rating 91(95Ron)

Do not use fuel containing methanol as it damages the fuel system components and may cause engine damage.

Gasoline containing methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) As much as 15% MTBE/gasoline blends can be used in HD motorcycles.

Ethanol is a mixture of 10% ethanol (grain alcohol) and 90% unleaded gasoline. these gasoline ethanol blends can be used in HD motorcycles if the ethanol content does not exceed 10%

reformulated or oxygenated gasolines (designed to burn cleaner and evaporate less) your HD will run normally.

Do Not use race gas or octane boosters, this will damage your fuel system.

Some Gasoline blends may adversely affect the starting, driveability or fuel efficiency of your HD, if experience any of these problems try a different brand of gasoline or use a gasoline with a higher octane blend.

[Moise]

Under the current regs, NZ 95 is actually US 90, not 91.

If the petrol contains more than 1℅ ethanol, then the pump must be labelled with the maximum ethanol content. I've never seen such a label on an Ultimate pump in the upper North Island.

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[Old Steve]

Quite right Moise, the NZ 'premium' ULP spec was written around European specs, which gave an acceptable satisfaction rating for the NZ car fleet, so is 95 RON. Using NZ 95 ULP (RON + MON/2 octane 90) in a HD is better than using NZ 91 ULP (RON + MON/2 octane 86)

Regarding old slider's comments, yeah American Petrol/gasoline may not have such rigorous specifications as NZ petrol. In those states which have bad, low winter temperatures, if fuel is carried over from summer they mightl have volatility problems - that's problems with the evaporation of the fuel at low temperatures which affects starting. Here in NZ, volatility is set as Reid Vapour Pressure and alters in summer and winter petrol specs to account for the need for different low temperature evaporation characteristics between the seasons and even between the north and south.

Methanol does damage some rubber and plastic components, and some metals - there's one automotive aluminium alloy which was commonly used back in the 80s that corrodes at the rate of over 1000 mm/year in 100% methanol. However include 0.25% water in the methanol and the corrosion rate drops to an almost undetectable level. But cars and motorbikes have been developed to be more tolerant of methanol by using different hose materials and alloys.

If there is no corrosion problem with methanol, then it's unlikely to damage the engine if included in petrol at that 10% level. When I was involved with one of the oil company's lubricant technical centre back in the 90s, Indy cars ran on pure alcohol - they used 2.3 times the volume of fuel than if they'd been powered by petrol, but the cooling effect of the alcohol meant smaller and lighter cooling systems and because of the higher octane number of the alcohol fuel they could run higher boost pressures.

Gasoline containing methyl tertiary butyl ether (MTBE) were introduced in cities in the USA where pollution was a problem, it's an oxygenate (as is alcohol) and reduced exhaust emissions. There was discussion to allow the inclusion of MTBE in NZ petrol some time later than the fuel specs were written. I don't know if it was included in the NZ petrol specs, at the time tit was thought that MTBE wouldn't be needed for pollution control in NZ but that MTBE petrols might be available for import so the spec should include the provision for including it. MTBE is slightly oxygenated hydrocarbon, it won't do any damage to the fuel system or engine.

In the USA, mixtures of ethanol (grain alcohol) and gasoline are called "gasohol", ethanol doesn't corrode the fuel system or engine metals and ethanol is subsidised in gasohol in the States to support grain farmers. A proportion of ethanol in petrol will lower the thermal content of the fuel (ethanol is ethane with an oxygen atom included in it - C2H5OH), 10% may lower the power from a gasohol by a fraction of a percent as that 10% has already been partially burnt already.

"Some Gasoline blends may adversely affect the starting, driveability or fuel efficiency of your HD, if experience any of these problems try a different brand of gasoline or use a gasoline with a higher octane blend." Less strict fuel regulations and lower vapour pressure from old fuel or using summer fuel in winter would give this effect. Petrol is a complex mix of a wide range of hydrocarbons, light ends give volatility/startibility, mid ends gives responsiveness/driveability, heavy ends give power and fuel economy (not at the same time, power or fuel economy). Different refineries may vary their mix of light, medium and heavy ends depending on the crude oil they receive, the refinery configuration or their market.

[Moise]

Total oxygenates are limited to 1℅, unless it is labelled as an ethanol blend. So NZ petrol is limited to a maximum of 1℅ MTBE. Environmentally, MTBE is not a Good Thing to have in petrol and I understand it has more or less been phased out in the US. You certainly wouldn't want to add it to E10.

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[Frodo]

Would be good to get the ethanol content clarified. This causes problems with nylon tanks. I previously owned a 1000DS Multistrada and the length of the tank causes big problems when the tank swells. A solution is to coat the inside of the tank (Caswell).
My Aprilia Shiver also has a plastic tank (I think nylon) and ethanol causes swelling, so I avoid ethanol fuels. Interestingly my previous Aprilia Pegaso Trail also had a plastic tank and seemed to run best on an ethanol blend and the tank didn't swell in the 100,000km I rode it.

I understand that pumps must be labelled if ethanol is more than a certain amount. The Mobil station at Paremata used to supply 91 (3% ethanol) and 98 (10% ethanol) - there were warning signs to this effect. I presume (hope) that they will including signs on the pumps if the new blends contain ethanol.

Edit: Just looked at the Mobil website: https://www.mobil.co.nz/en/synergy-fuels

"At selected service stations in wider Wellington region, Extra Unleaded and Synergy 1000 may contain up to 3% ethanol and Supreme+ and Synergy 8000 will contain up to 10% ethanol. May not be suitable for all vehicle engines, check with the manufacturer before use."

Confused?
- 91 "may" contain 3% ethanol and 98 "will" contain 10% ethanol.
- What are the "selected" stations? I won't be selecting them if they add ethanol!

[Moise]

I too found that statement on the Mobil website confusing. It seems that only Wellington service stations may or will have ethanol added. I certainly haven't seen any labels on the pumps in Auckland.

The other weird thing is they are selling either the Synergy or the Extra fuels at different service stations. Does that actually reflect a difference in fuels, or is it taking time to rebrand the pumps?

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[Moise]

The Mobil at Drury has 98. Looks like they have changed over most of their stations.

No ethanol.

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[rastuscat]

It's happening. I have some Mobil gift cards to use up, and every place I've been in the last fortnight, including Kopu, had 98. Even some of the smaller stations have changed over.

Just checked the fine print on their website. The 98 is E10, so no more for the R1. Back to Ultimate.

Edit:. Read that wrong, it's just some Wellington stations that have E10. That's confusing!

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Dude, I'm ignorant as to the various components of fuel.

Can you advise? What does RON mean? Ethanol portion? How dirty is our fuel, on a world level?

[awayatc]

This copied and pasted informative article hopefully answers all the mon ron and ethanol questions in regards to motorbikes....

Americans are crazy about ethanol. Most of their fuel seems to have at least 10% ethanol and the Renewable Fuels Association will have a huge presence at next weekend’s Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, the largest in the world.
They will be providing free ethanol giveaways and free T-shirts at the 2014 Sturgis Buffalo Chip bar at the rally in an effort to convert riders to the natural juice. But is ethanol really any good for your bike?
While the odd dose of ethanol is ok for most bikes and certainly fine for American bikes on a more regular basis, it may cause long-term damage to most others.
Ethanol is a type of alcohol produced by fermentation of crops such as sugarcane or grain. In Australia, ethanol content in unleaded fuel is limited to 10% (E10) but some countries use 85% or even higher in South America.
E10 is becoming more prevalent throughout Australian service stations and NSW service stations even have to stock a minimum requirement of the fuel.
According to the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, only post-1986 bikes and ATVs made by BMW, Harley, Polaris and Victory can safely use E10. No Japanese bikes and no Piaggio products can use it. The FCAI doesn’t mention other brands, but it can be assumed ethanol blends are not suitable.
Ethanol doesn’t work with carburettors or mechanical fuel injection. It is also a solvent which attacks metallic and rubber-based fuel lines, and has an affinity to water that can cause steel fuel tanks to rust.
But one of the confusing things for riders is the octane rating. (Octane is a measure of a fuel’s ability to resist engine knocking or pinging which is an uncontrolled burn in the engine that can cause damage. Higher octane fuels resist knocking.)
Most E10 in Australia is rated at 95 RON which seems like it could be suitable for bikes that require that higher octane rating. (In America it has a lot lower RON ratings as their highest RON fuel is only 91.)
But RACQ executive manager technical and safety policy, Steve Spalding, warns that ethanol-blended, higher-octane fuels may not necessarily meet the correct fuel requirements for a vehicle designated to run on PULP.
While the RON may be high enough, there is another property in fuel, called Motor Octane Number (MON), which is rarely specified on the bowser.
MON is usually about 10 numbers lower than RON, so a MON of 85 would be ok for a bike rated at 95 RON.
However, ethanol fuels have much lower MON numbers than their RON which could be too low for your bike.
Either ask the service/gas station for the MON rating or fill up non-ethanol premium unleaded fuel of 95 RON or higher.
It is always best to have a higher octane rating than a lower one even though modern engine management systems have knock sensors that can handle lower octane.
If there is no choice but to fill up with ethanol fuel, make sure your next fill is with a high-octane fuel.
The RFA will be telling riders that ethanol lowers gas/fuel prices, furthers America’s energy security, and revitalises rural America. However, even those debates are far from definitive.
We won’t begin to tackle the environmental concerns which are not proven anyway, but we do believe it is not doing your hip pocket any favours, even though E10 is usually a few cents cheaper.
There is about 3% less energy content in a litre of E10 compared with unleaded fuel which means your engine performance and fuel economy will be 3% worse, or to put it another way, your range will be limited by 3%.
The price of E10 would need to be at least 3% less than ULP for riders to even break even on the fill.

[Moise]

Dude, I'm ignorant as to the various components of fuel.

Can you advise? What does RON mean? Ethanol portion? How dirty is our fuel, on a world level?
Post 21 in this thread has a good explanation of RON and MON.

The E rating tells you how much ethanol is blended with refined petrol, eg E10 is 10%.

There are NZ regulations for 91 and 95 petrol. This results in a consistency of quality that doesn't always happen in other countries.

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[Phleep]

My '06 VFR manual said ethanol up to 10% was fine. I have had it through a few full tanks from the J'ville Mobil which has 98 with "no more than 10% ethanol" without trouble - Not that I can tell if it is causing tank rust. However currently using BP as it is en route to work.

[nzspokes]

So my Zuki's manual say use 91. But being a global bike, whos 91 do they mean?

I recently started using Caltex 98 and it seems to go better.

[R650R]

Either ask the service/gas station for the MON rating....


That's hilarious right there. Hlaf an hour of your life gone there while teenage gas station cashier phones their own 0800 centre to find out even they prob don't know.

But yeah good informative info there in post.

To my way of thought wouldn't that 3% less energy be a compounded loss when it really matters, eg at full power of heavy acceleration in the same way a little extra drag costs a lot of top speed and vice versa to go little faster you need way more engine power at terminal speed.
We should all be avoiding this ethanol crap like the plague. Bet same shit will happen with electric vehicles.
They'll be 'environmentally friendly' lower volatage charging stations that will be 'cheaper' to use.....

[caspernz]

So my Zuki's manual say use 91. But being a global bike, whos 91 do they mean?

I recently started using Caltex 98 and it seems to go better.

Caltex have 98? Since when...

Been hauling their juice for a while, 95 is the fanciest we deliver.

[nzspokes]

Caltex have 98? Since when...

Been hauling their juice for a while, 95 is the fanciest we deliver.

Maybe I read it wrong but it aint diesel Ive been putting in. From the red pump.

[caspernz]

Maybe I read it wrong but it aint diesel Ive been putting in. From the red pump.

The red handle pump is just marked premium at Caltex sites, without a RON number. Have been asked this a few times whilst delivering onsite. It is 95 Rob, some folks do rave about the Techron additive, but I can't comment on that from personal trial and error.

[nzspokes]

The red handle pump is just marked premium at Caltex sites, without a RON number. Have been asked this a few times whilst delivering onsite. It is 95 Rob, some folks do rave about the Techron additive, but I can't comment on that from personal trial and error.

Cool, least I know now. But is the 91 in my manual the same 91 we get?

[caspernz]

Cool, least I know now. But is the 91 in my manual the same 91 we get?

In NZ the standard used is RON, so if that's what your manual calls for then all sweet.

[jasonu]

That's hilarious right there. Hlaf an hour of your life gone there while the curry muncher who barely speaks engrish gas station cashier phones their own 0800 centre to find out even they prob don't know.

But yeah good informative info there in post.

To my way of thought wouldn't that 3% less energy be a compounded loss when it really matters, eg at full power of heavy acceleration in the same way a little extra drag costs a lot of top speed and vice versa to go little faster you need way more engine power at terminal speed.
We should all be avoiding this ethanol crap like the plague. Bet same shit will happen with electric vehicles.
They'll be 'environmentally friendly' lower volatage charging stations that will be 'cheaper' to use.....

Subtle changes...:yes:

[Old Steve]

(In America it has a lot lower RON ratings as their highest RON fuel is only 91.)

NO! American octane ratings are the average of RON + MON, usually 5 numbers down from the RON rating. American 91 octane would be RON 96 / MON 86 so would be very close to our premium.

Don't use our Standard 91 petrol in an engine requiring American 91, our Premium 95 is closest to American 91 (RON + MON / 2 = 90, premium, is better than RON + MON / 2 = 86, standard)

[R1madness]

1985......
55 cents a liter
Suzuki AC50M $4.80 to fill from empty...

[Moise]

A quick postscript to this. After about 5 tanks of Mobil, the bike started idling rough and not running smoothly on a light throttle. Some decent carb cleaner fixed that fortunately.

I'm using Ultimate again and the engine idles better, and runs smoother when cruising.

I'd be interested to know what's different between Ultimate and Mobil 98. Just additives?

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[slofox]

Looks like they are changing from 95 to 98 at all of their service stations, but keeping the price the same. $1.85 per litre in Manurewa yesterday compared to $2.10 for Ultimate at BP Greenlane.

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Not in Te Tron they aren't. 98 now costs 8c/l more than the old 95. Bastards.