Coromandel : Perceptual countermeasures

[tmz_99]

Hi guys,
I'm doing a write up on the perceptual countermeasures (funny paint and bollards) that they've installed in the Corramandel for www.theallriders.com .
These ones: http://www.nzta.govt.nz/safety/driving-safely/motorcycling/motorcycle-safety-projects/safer-rides-southern-coromandel/photos-and-videos/
As such I'd be interested to hear from anyone who regularly uses this and has some thoughts on how this has changed (if it has changed) safety in the region.
Feel free to PM me if not comfortable to discuss this on a public forum.. :)

Cheeeeeeers!

[AllanB]

Interesting road marking. Looks good. Reckon he could have upped the pace too :eek:

[sidecar bob]

I'd guess it's far better for people that outride their ability & can't seem to ride to the conditions & stay on the black stuff.
That road never hurt me in the thirty years I rode it before the "improvements"
Pandering to fuckwits in short.
They should have just made it straight so Aucklanders could handle it without binning.

[Akzle]

on this, bob and I can agree.

[5ive]

Now if there was only a way to stop people with four wheels from crossing the centreline when going around the corners...

[jasonu]

I'd guess it's far better for people that outride their ability & can't seem to ride to the conditions & stay on the black stuff.
That road never hurt me in the thirty years I rode it before the "improvements"
Pandering to fuckwits in short.
They should have just made it straight so Aucklanders could handle it without binning.


on this, bob and I can agree.

Yep. Nanny state for sure.

[sidecar bob]

on this, bob and I can agree.

Well how about some green for a change then ya dick.;)

[skippa1]

Corramandel!
Where the fuck is this?

Coromandel is a township, Coromandel Peninsula is a district and Corramandel does not exist

[skippa1]

I'd guess it's far better for people that outride their ability & can't seem to ride to the conditions & stay on the black stuff.
That road never hurt me in the thirty years I rode it before the "improvements"
Pandering to fuckwits in short.
They should have just made it straight so Aucklanders could handle it without binning.


on this, bob and I can agree.


Yep. Nanny state for sure.
Yep, yep and yep

[Moi]

Now if there was only a way to stop people with four wheels from crossing the centreline when going around the corners...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rE1BZmPKMjk/T8vz-VQNRAI/AAAAAAAAEho/SDzprhrOmrg/s1600/VESPA+SIDECAR+MILITARY+04.jpg

[nzspokes]

Guy on the vid has average lines and needs to learn that grip on the right makes the bike go faster.

[Kickaha]

Guy on the vid has average lines and needs to learn that grip on the right makes the bike go faster.

Maybe he doesn't want to go faster because he's not a fucking knob and wants to stay at a speed he's comfortable with instead of being a tryhard wannabe and becoming another crash statistic

[Akzle]

Well how about some green for a change then ya dick.;)

not with an attitude like that, ya poof.
you get yours, like everyone, when you bring teh lulz.

[nzspokes]

Maybe he doesn't want to go faster because he's not a fucking knob and wants to stay at a speed he's comfortable with instead of being a tryhard wannabe and becoming another crash statistic

Yah high viz getting caught in ya chain?

[Katman]

Guy on the vid has average lines and needs to learn that grip on the right makes the bike go faster.

Well I certainly didn't hear him trying to blame an accident on a faulty side stand spring.

You fucking moron.

[nzspokes]

Well I certainly didn't hear him trying to blame an accident on a faulty side stand spring.

You fucking moron.

Least Im allowed out to ride Grandad.....

[Madness]

Least Im allowed out to ride Grandad.....

Even if your Grandad is consenting, that's disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[nzspokes]

Even if your Grandad is consenting, that's disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Punctuation fail, fair call. :laugh:

[Moi]

Least Im allowed out to ride Grandad.....

You not following young Max's advice on this "riding" thing?

[Berries]

I do like the video where the rider comments on the 45km/h sign and says he should scrub some speed off before he actually increases speed around the curve and hits the apex at over 70. I am sure I would do the same but isn't this meant to be a safety video?

[Voltaire]

Hi guys,
I'm doing a write up on the perceptual countermeasures (funny paint and bollards) that they've installed in the Corramandel for www.theallriders.com .
These ones: http://www.nzta.govt.nz/safety/driving-safely/motorcycling/motorcycle-safety-projects/safer-rides-southern-coromandel/photos-and-videos/
As such I'd be interested to hear from anyone who regularly uses this and has some thoughts on how this has changed (if it has changed) safety in the region.
Feel free to PM me if not comfortable to discuss this on a public forum.. :)

Cheeeeeeers!

One day it might be as bad a Taiwan.
http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/GLOB/legacy_thumbnail/800x450/format/jpg/quality/85/http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/e0d8b505de53ca784fb126222a5a1c6d/200419394/traffic.jpg

[Maha]

A more pressing issue here is the many ways of spelling the word Coromandel. Coramandel (Thread Title) Corramandel (First sentence first post)

The widely used term 'Coro Loop' was born from this very confusion, bikers not knowing how to spell where they liked ride, so they adopted a more safer option for fear of continual persecution.

[Kickaha]

Yah high viz getting caught in ya chain?

There's only one colour for bike gear and that is Black

[Moise]

Doesn't help, in fact can be distracting. The wider, road edge marking is great though. Helps with looking for the vanishing point, choosing lines, etc.

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[tmz_99]

Doesn't help, in fact can be distracting. The wider, road edge marking is great though. Helps with looking for the vanishing point, choosing lines, etc.

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thanks... first real critique :)

[AllanB]

thanks... first real critique :)

This is much more effective

[Night Falcon]

Actual countermeasures, filling in drainage ditches and sealing driveways, offer real value to everyone using the road. The perceptual value of enlarging edge and center lines is subjective and doesn't offer much in reality especially on a narrow road with oncoming traffic.

A fair perception of the big painted blocks on the corners is they clutter the available riding area and are a distraction for motorbikes. Tight twisty corners I want to be looking through and as far ahead as possible. Having my eyes drawn to the surface right in front of me is counterproductive. Knowing if on coming traffic hasn't strayed over the center line is just as important as not straying over yourself especially on narrow high traffic Coromandal roads. Eliminating diminishing radius corners would be more helpful.

[pritch]

Since the OP's post apparently comes from Taiwan it is possible English isn't his first language, so banging on about the spelling of Coromandel is not exactly productive.
How's your Mandarin? :whistle:

All of the colloquial language in the replies possibly doesn't help him much either. Although he might have learnt some new words?

Must be six or seven years since I did the loop so can't comment on the "improvements". Any problems I had with the road back then would have been of my own doing.

[AllanB]

Any problems I had with the road back then would have been of my own doing.

Which is probably the main reason for Coro Loop motorcycle accidents ..... rider, not the road.


One of my favorite roads I've ridden for 35 years has gotten busier and busier and the road 'repair' in many places absolute shit. As a consequence I ride it a modest speed.

Road repairs - pet hate in CHCH. The same road has had sections replaced by roading craftsmen - real Moto GP track corners - followed by a section of goat track ...... :facepalm:

[FJRider]

Now if there was only a way to stop people with four wheels from crossing the centreline when going around the corners...

Be careful what you wish for ... :pinch:




But perhaps more thought is needed to prevent those people with two wheels ... going off the edges.

Perhaps if those on two wheels ... gave a little more thought at the time ... ;)

[skippa1]

A more pressing issue here is the many ways of spelling the word Coromandel. Coramandel (Thread Title) Corramandel (First sentence first post)

The widely used term 'Coro Loop' was born from this very confusion, bikers not knowing how to spell where they liked ride, so they adopted a more safer option for fear of continual persecution.
Lol....more safer......

[Swoop]

Those "Helicopter" circles are shit.

Every time I go over one I do not get given a helicopter. Stink video game.








Or are they "Designated Helicopter Crash Sites" for Robinsons?:scratch:

[sidecar bob]

thanks... first real critique :)

Are you only accepting certain points of view as being valid? Did my critique not fit your criteria?

[Moise]

Actual countermeasures, filling in drainage ditches and sealing driveways, offer real value to everyone using the road. The perceptual value of enlarging edge and center lines is subjective and doesn't offer much in reality especially on a narrow road with oncoming traffic.
They've made a lot of improvements, especially between Hikuai and Whangamata. Mainly simple stuff, like sealing driveways on corners, but in some cases, cutting back hillsides to improve visibility.

I'd have to say though that the main positive change has been harvesting the pine forest! Much better visibility and far fewer damp patches.





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[tmz_99]

thanks for all the comments...
After hearing back from the NZTA it seems the improvments in safety have been very nominal..... no decrease in speed and only slight adjustment (for the better) in lane positioning (there was some improvement for car positioning also).

I'll throw a link up once it's published.. :)

[Katman]

thanks for all the comments...
After hearing back from the NZTA it seems the improvments in safety have been very nominal..... no decrease in speed and only slight adjustment (for the better) in lane positioning (there was some improvement for car positioning also).

I'll throw a link up once it's published.. :)

With all due respect (and I mean that most respectfully), until you learn how to re-programme the average motorcyclist's brain, any effort spent on up-grading the roads is of questionable value.

[caspernz]

They've made a lot of improvements, especially between Hikuai and Whangamata. Mainly simple stuff, like sealing driveways on corners, but in some cases, cutting back hillsides to improve visibility.

I'd have to say though that the main positive change has been harvesting the pine forest! Much better visibility and far fewer damp patches.

It's in the subtle stuff, sealing driveways and using flat covers for drainage sumps instead of upright concrete pipes. The extra guardrail or gutter under the Armco that's seen in places is probably what gets noticed most, along with the extra blocks of paint into the tighter corners. All passive safety type of stuff in reality.


thanks for all the comments...
After hearing back from the NZTA it seems the improvments in safety have been very nominal..... no decrease in speed and only slight adjustment (for the better) in lane positioning (there was some improvement for car positioning also).

I'll throw a link up once it's published.. :)

That'll make for interesting reading...


With all due respect (and I mean that most respectfully), until you learn how to re-programme the average motorcyclist's brain, any effort spent on up-grading the roads is of questionable value.

Yes I'd be agreeing with you there, for it seems that those who benefit most from the improvements, could help themselves by adding a dose of self preservation to their riding <_<

[tmz_99]

Up live:

http://www.theallriders.com/single-post/2017/01/09/Perceptual-Counter-Measures-A-Long-Term-Application-in-the-NZ-Coromandel-Peninsula

short and sweet - hope it's a balanced enough view without being too long winded... ;)

Off to the Philippines in Feb to do a piece on cafe racer workshops over there....

[pritch]

That's OK except where it says New Zealand it should say Auckland. I am being picky but...

[Blackbird]

Among other motorcyclists and particularly because I'm a local, I was invited to attend a preliminary meeting with NZTA on the Northern Loop project and have had a small amount of on-going input where appropriate. Discussing detail on KB is inviting all the trolls and no-hopers to make their usual unhelpful comments so I won't. What I will say however, is that the NZTA people I've met are good, pragmatic people who want to make a difference in terms of motorcycle safety. Several of the team are riders themselves. Their work on cleanup and sightlines whilst not necessarily noticeable to occasional riders in the area has been really valuable.

However, the best outcome is for people to take personal responsibility for their own riding standards - no surprise there.

[caspernz]

However, the best outcome is for people to take personal responsibility for their own riding standards - no surprise there.

If only this could be administered by a pill upon gaining a class 6 licence...:eek::laugh::rolleyes:

[Blackbird]

If only this could be administered by a pill upon gaining a class 6 licence...:eek::laugh::rolleyes:

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Moise]

Among other motorcyclists and particularly because I'm a local, I was invited to attend a preliminary meeting with NZTA on the Northern Loop project and have had a small amount of on-going input where appropriate. Discussing detail on KB is inviting all the trolls and no-hopers to make their usual unhelpful comments so I won't. What I will say however, is that the NZTA people I've met are good, pragmatic people who want to make a difference in terms of motorcycle safety. Several of the team are riders themselves. Their work on cleanup and sightlines whilst not necessarily noticeable to occasional riders in the area has been really valuable.

However, the best outcome is for people to take personal responsibility for their own riding standards - no surprise there.
So what are the results of the southern loop upgrades? I don't recall any serious motorbike accidents in Coromandel for a while.

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[Blackbird]

So what are the results of the southern loop upgrades? I don't recall any serious motorbike accidents in Coromandel for a while.

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Wasn't involved, but valid statistical data trend analysis always takes time so it's probable there aren't any yet. I think there has been a few accidents but hard pressed to remember details. Have a vague memory of a bike and ute colliding on the twisty eastern side of the Coromandel/Whangapoua hill where most of the blind bends are.

[Moise]

Wasn't involved, but valid statistical data trend analysis always takes time so it's probable there aren't any yet. I think there has been a few accidents but hard pressed to remember details. Have a vague memory of a bike and ute colliding on the twisty eastern side of the Coromandel/Whangapoua hill where most of the blind bends are.
It always pays to keep well to the left on blind corners at this time of year because of the numpties with big boats who don't know how to take corners.

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[Blackbird]

It always pays to keep well to the left on blind corners at this time of year because of the numpties with big boats who don't know how to take corners.

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Yep, but bikers aren't exempt from that either by personal observation. Recently followed an Audi 4x4 who cut every left and right blind bend. Nearly caused a major shunt on one corner and carried on like nothing happened. As it happened, there was a camera in our car so it was his misfortune :cool:

[SPman]

... and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. . I know a couple of people who thought that........ a shame it doesn't work that way.........:eek5:

[Blackbird]

According to some on here who have been to riding school they will say its better to hug the centre line because you can see further around the bend and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. That might be ok if whoever is coming the other way is going real slow but I would not bet on that being the case most of the time and agree with your thinking of staying as left as possible.

You've taken it totally out of context. Good Roadcraft has flexibility built into it to account for the conditions encountered. As you appear to have never upskilled, it's understandable that you wouldn't grasp that.

[Moise]

According to some on here who have been to riding school they will say its better to hug the centre line because you can see further around the bend and have plenty of time to get out of the way if someone is over the centre line. That might be ok if whoever is coming the other way is going real slow but I would not bet on that being the case most of the time and agree with your thinking of staying as left as possible.
Just curious, have you ever actually done any riding courses? I've never heard anyone suggest that.

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[Gremlin]

You've taken it totally out of context. Good Roadcraft has flexibility built into it to account for the conditions encountered. As you appear to have never upskilled, it's understandable that you wouldn't grasp that.


Just curious, have you ever actually done any riding courses? I've never heard anyone suggest that.
Let's remember that there is "internationally recognised and adopted" approaches to roadcraft that underpin almost every training course in some way and can be traced to it's origins circa 1950s, and then apparently cassina's opinion. I wasn't going to reply to this or other threads, but I've already proven the contradictions and lack of facts in a previous thread and stick to my original point... I'd rather spend my time productively improving those that want to improve, than argue with those that don't (yes, moot point about new riders seeing the ... opinion...). Full and proper roadcraft is not mastered in half an hour or through one post or explanation, rather a lifetime of continuous improvement.

[Blackbird]

So then what sort of bends do riding schools suggest you hug the centre line and what ones they don't?. I have seen UK Roadcraft videos and they do appear to hug the centre line mostly and even corner on the centre line when the road is wet too.


I'd rather spend my time productively improving those that want to improve, than argue with those that don't (yes, moot point about new riders seeing the ... opinion...). Full and proper roadcraft is not mastered in half an hour or through one post or explanation, rather a lifetime of continuous improvement.

I think Gremlin has summed it up rather nicely.

[slofox]

So then what sort of bends do riding schools suggest you hug the centre line and what ones they don't?. I have seen UK Roadcraft videos and they do appear to hug the centre line mostly and even corner on the centre line when the road is wet too.

I once followed a dude from Whangamata to Waihi who adhered to the "hug the centre" doctrine. It scared shit out of me watching from behind when he would go way towards centre as we approached a left hander. Those who know the road will know it is tight and narrow in parts as well. I decided not to follow him again since it would be hard to get rid of all the blood off the paintwork should he fuck it up.

Personally, I stay as far from proximity to any other vehicle as possible on the grounds that if i am not near it, I shouldn't bang into it...(:o I hope)

[Moise]

No I have not done any courses but have seen UK Road Craft video tutorials on the internet. From the tutorials I have seen though this hugging of the centre line to see further around bends would be the only thing I would disagree with though. I have read comments from other posters on here critisising what riding schools teach in terms of cornering lines too.

I'd suggest that you do the ACC Silver and Gold courses and see if that approach is taught.

I would say though that the average US rider seems to think that racing lines through corners are the way to go. But then most of them voted for Trump, so they can be safely ignored.

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[nzspokes]

I once followed a dude from Whangamata to Waihi who adhered to the "hug the centre" doctrine. It scared shit out of me watching from behind when he would go way towards centre as we approached a left hander. Those who know the road will know it is tight and narrow in parts as well. I decided not to follow him again since it would be hard to get rid of all the blood off the paintwork should he fuck it up.

Personally, I stay as far from proximity to any other vehicle as possible on the grounds that if i am not near it, I shouldn't bang into it...(:o I hope)

If you enter a LH bend at pace and on the middle of the LH wheel track there is a rubbish bin, how to do fix this?

[pritch]

If there is good visibility a late entry line would seem appropriate and provide the best view. If it's a blind corner that's a whole nuther matter.

Lazy journos like to consult the editor of The Dog and Lemon Guide, he must be readily accessible to them and it seems he likes to talk, but if he has any qualifications regarding motorcycling that's been a well kept secret.

And since this thread is supposed to be about the Coromandel: http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=240578

[Gremlin]

This story has made the media and a link was posted by another poster on here. The bit I refer you to is that he says advanced training does not improve safety. So if this guy is to be believed many on here pushing rider training are doing it under a false belief that it will make you a safer rider.
The problem is that you take one person's statement that suits you, and you turn it into your own gospel. One thing that is true, is that in some cases, after rider training, a rider can be overconfident, and this is covered in roadcraft. The simple fact is that it isn't black magic, it isn't a magic pill to stop crashes but will, for your average rider (there is no point looking at extremes, you look in the larger user groups), remembering not to be overconfident, should be a safer rider.

Now, when roadcraft was first introduced by the UK police (two serving officers developed it circa 40s and 50s) there was a substantial reduction in crashes across their vehicle fleet (I forget the numbers, but we're not talking 1%) and so successful it was expanded into the civilian population (the birth of IAM UK) then adopted by other countries (1 or both of those serving officers emigrated to NZ and started IAM NZ).

The biggest problem faced (and this is a big generalisation, so hold onto your chair) that those that undertake training have most likely already done so, are in the right mindset, receptive to the feedback and a safer rider on the road before training has started. The group most at risk are the ones that feel they already know everything, refuse to undertake further training or think they're fine on the road. This group are generally the ones that rider training would have the most benefit on, but require the most input, or impossible to improve as their minds are closed to learning. On this point, ask any course, any workplace training, only those open to improving will benefit.

So this is the conundrum faced, and where ACC/Police etc hit a bit of a wall. Plenty of riders see training as boring or unnecessary. How do you change that? For arguments sake (and remember Ride Forever is a drop in the bucket), those 5000 odd places that were available, the motorcycle population is 100,000 from memory? Let's say 5% of riders have taken the opportunity, probably less, as many have done multiple courses. They have probably helped reduce the motorcycle accident rate, or the severity, but quantifying that is pretty much impossible. It doesn't stop one muppet who refuses to undertake training, from passing on a blind corner and being wiped out. It's just one more death tacked onto the toll.

NZTA et al have had a position for decades that driver training bred overconfidence and this is why the average driving level is piss poor. This will not be fixed in 5 or 10 years and will take decades. Tests have been made harder, losing your licence is easier (requiring test resit under harder tests) so eventually, upskilling those that wish to, and eliminating the worst, you'll slowly see an improvement. I recall an article about a mother complaining her daughter failed her test because she lived in the country and hadn't practised city driving and how unfair that was. These adults are passing their standards and opinions onto their children right now... so again, it will take a long time to improve. It is only when there is a societal shift to not tolerating poor driving and not accepting average as OK, that things will improve. Worse still, you have these people who the media seek for an opinion, passing on rubbish which society then accepts.

Simply put, I do believe that good training can improve a rider, make them safer and as a safer rider, even improve the safety of others who do put themselves at risk (by identifying the hazards, poor choices etc), thereby making the roads safer. Because I believe it, I invest countless hours of my personal time into doing so but accept that not all will see that. Often riders will debate points I make, but healthy debate evaluating all aspects aids learning. Simply disagreeing because, and refusing to entertain, will benefit no-one.

[Moise]

A long time ago in a country far, far away some dodgy research "proved" that driver training did not reduce accident rates.

This is completely counter intuitive. If it were true, why is anyone trained at all? Why not just take someone off the street and make them a doctor?

However, it has now become a generally accepted mantra that driver and rider training is a waste of time. The results are obvious on our roads every day, and are not pretty.

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[Gremlin]

If you read his article again he says its "universally accepted" which gives me the impression than there is more than just him who thinks advanced rider training does not make riding safer.
Well this just re-inforces my opinion of everything I read in the media... I never trust it's accurate and certainly don't take it for granted. It's their opinion it's universally accepted, yet the USA, UK, Australia and NZ have training programs, to name just the few I'm immediately aware of. So straight up... "universally accepted" pretty much makes everything else out of their mouth worthless.


With respect to your point about rider training making riders overconfident I have in the past read that that is the reason why the Police/NZTA do not want to make it compulsory. Maybe they fear there will be more people successfully outrunning them in chases.
I doubt all of this. I know police riders, police instructors and the ambo riders. The police riders go through annual training and certification and the police instructors have been assisting in training the ambo riders as well. They too follow the Police Riders handbook sourced out of the UK which IAM uses, but naturally they include the sections on pursuit and emergency riding. The police see the value in training and as per my previous post, I'd doubt that the riders likely to run from police would be the same ones signing up for riding courses as the mentality of the two riders are different.


You must enjoy going to riding school every year in the same way I guess people enjoy sports/hobbies etc.
I'm no angel and I'd tell any associate member that asked. I've lost my licence from demerits and seen the impact of risky riding losing multiple friends through the years. I've mostly changed my ways and this is my way of giving back and helping riders upskill.

[Akzle]

I'd doubt that the riders likely to run from police would be the same ones signing up for riding courses as the mentality of the two riders are different.




there's a difference between "running from" and "just not stopping for, then testing their riding/driving ability to determine if they have a legitimate cause to impede your travel"
i mean hell, if trained operator's can't keep pace...

[Bass]

Well this just re-inforces my opinion of everything I read in the media... I never trust it's accurate and certainly don't take it for granted.

Based on personal experience, I have long held the opinion that are none among us quite so skilled as journalists, at distorting the truth without telling a lie. Had few ex-journo's agree with me and in writing too.

So generalised statements about what is "universally accepted" without any references or even data, carry very little weight for me.

[Luckylegs]

It was a while back I read the authorities in NZ were not interested in compulsory rider training due to overconfidence so maybe attitudes have changed. Sounds like you rode under pressure to keep up in your younger days and have grown out of it. It was never something I felt a need to do in my younger days.

Hahahaha, you have no idea... Of the times I rode with Gremlin he was the lead rider so he was setting the pace. If anyone would have been under pressure to keep up, it would have been me. Did I, perhaps at times a bit, but I'm clever enough and old enough to know when I am and would not ride above a particular percentage of commitment just to keep up. What I remember about him and his 10r was how effortlessly he seemed to ride that bike. It could be cos he's a gig lump of human or perhaps he's a little more of a natural at it than I. Not important, the point is that you live in black and white and your statements are dumb when you have no idea the facts.

Perhaps if you re-worded them slightly they may seem less moronic. perhaps If you ASKED "Did you amass speeding infringements because you were riding with people faster than you?" instead of assuming and making an arse out of U and <strike>ME</strike> U (Alone) you might get somewhere.

[Gremlin]

It was a while back I read the authorities in NZ were not interested in compulsory rider training due to overconfidence so maybe attitudes have changed. Sounds like you rode under pressure to keep up in your younger days and have grown out of it. It was never something I felt a need to do in my younger days.
Ah, your old gem. I'm not even sure who luckylegs is, but they obviously know me. :eek: Very little pressure to keep up, I've mostly done my own thing. I either led or was somewhere at the back, again, doing my own thing. I'd say most of the close shaves etc, I was riding alone.

But hey, don't let that stop you.

[Luckylegs]

Ah, your old gem. I'm not even sure who luckylegs is, but they obviously know me. :eek: Very little pressure to keep up, I've mostly done my own thing. I either led or was somewhere at the back, again, doing my own thing. I'd say most of the close shaves etc, I was riding alone.

But hey, don't let that stop you.

Twas a looong time ago and I'm hardly memorable and nor was my old CBR600F3 (even more-so when in the company of people like Raj lol) so I understand.

[Swoop]

... and then apparently cassina's opinion.
She has watched some videos and probably perused Ewechoob as well, so is now a leading expert in most topics.


... it has now become a generally accepted mantra that driver and rider training is a waste of time. The results are obvious on our roads every day, and are not pretty.
Really the NZTA should cut out the middle man and just issue licences through weetbix packets... if training is not necessary.

Sadly there are self-deluding groups of idiots out there (that dog and lemon fuckwit and his bum-boi friends would be one) who come to conclusions which are so far away from logic or intelligence that are truly staggering.
When D&L fuckwit states "universally accepted" he means by him and/or his mates who have the same retarded opinion.

[onearmedbandit]

That could be a topic for a new thread "The most dangerous thing you see other riders doing" I wont bother starting it though as many on here will already know my answer.

Done. Join in.

[Blackbird]

Getting back on track after Cassina trying to derail it with the same old, same old, I went out with the NZTA Coromandel Northern Loop team this week. The perceptual countermeasures component which some people seem hell-bent on bagging is only a small part of the holistic approach. I was really impressed with the pragmatic attitude and professionalism of NZTA and associated agencies on the project - several of them are motorcyclists too. Anyway, I've written up an overview of my day out with them here: http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/not-your-normal-day-on-road.html . It was a real pleasure to have conversations with people who are trying to help motorcyclists as opposed to legislating us off the road.

[swbarnett]

The perceptual countermeasures component which some people seem hell-bent on bagging
I rode most of the southern loop last week. I can't see what they're supposed to achieve. My only thought was "yet more paint to get shiny in the wet".

Having said that I agree. At least this group is trying. It doesn't realy matter if the first attempts aren't successful. Trial and error is still useful.

[Blackbird]

I rode most of the southern loop last week. I can't see what they're supposed to achieve. My only thought was "yet more paint to get shiny in the wet".

Having said that I agree. At least this group is trying. It doesn't realy matter if the first attempts aren't successful. Trial and error is still useful.

As I mentioned earlier, it's far too early to get any data which has statistical significance and it doesn't really bother me as there are other useful cues such as vanishing point movement etc. As you say, good on them for trying different measures. However, getting back to the nitty gritty, PC's are a relatively small part of the total project. The other point is that that the project team have a strong practical focus and some of them are keen riders so it's not decision-making in isolation by office-bound people.

[Akzle]

. Trial and error is still useful.

you would think..
but then. cassina.

[5ive]

I don't think plastic orange sticks would be strong enough to even slow a vehicle down, let alone stop one.

[nzspokes]

Getting back on track after Cassina trying to derail it with the same old, same old, I went out with the NZTA Coromandel Northern Loop team this week. The perceptual countermeasures component which some people seem hell-bent on bagging is only a small part of the holistic approach. I was really impressed with the pragmatic attitude and professionalism of NZTA and associated agencies on the project - several of them are motorcyclists too. Anyway, I've written up an overview of my day out with them here: http://geoffjames.blogspot.co.nz/2017/01/not-your-normal-day-on-road.html . It was a real pleasure to have conversations with people who are trying to help motorcyclists as opposed to legislating us off the road.

Interesting read Geoff. Thanks for the link.

Buy the Triumph.

[nzspokes]

I don't think plastic orange sticks would be strong enough to even slow a vehicle down, let alone stop one.

They would give you a good slapping. But some may like that....

[swbarnett]

As I mentioned earlier, it's far too early to get any data which has statistical significance and it doesn't really bother me as there are other useful cues such as vanishing point movement etc.
Indeed. I'm really saying that the only effect they might have on me is probably a negative one. However, even if that's true it's not big enough to be any kind of issue to my riding so if they help others then all good.

[swbarnett]

you would think..
but then. cassina.
Nah, they're all error and no trial.

[swbarnett]

I don't think plastic orange sticks would be strong enough to even slow a vehicle down, let alone stop one.
The effect is psychological. The point being that if you do happen to go through them they're not going to cut you to ribbons like other road furniture I could mention.

[Akzle]

Nah, they're all error and no trial.

:clap:

i would bling you, but his high-faggotress gremlord hath bestowed upon me multiple infractions. mainly because cassina is a fuckwit.

[5ive]

The effect is psychological. The point being that if you do happen to go through them they're not going to cut you to ribbons like other road furniture I could mention.

I was replying to Cassina's post, common sense and facts are not applicable ;)