Leather vs Fabric in a slide

[rocketman1]

Saw on tv the other night this experienced rider saying that many riders get injured because when they crash and slide in fabric / synthetic jackets and pants, the fabric grabs the road an causes them to tumble instead of sliding, this causes many injuries that they would not have got had they been wearing leathers which make you skid & slide.
I realise all the bike racers wear leather but I did not realise they do this because of that reason.

Any thoughts?

[Gremlin]

Not all gear is made equal. Poor fabric or leather will blow apart, fail to protect etc. Generally speaking though (so removing the top end fabric/leather and same for bottom end) leather will protect better, fabric will work better weather wise.

Top end fabric gear has things like superfabric and the top end fabric gear will actually handle abrasion better than most leather.

Fit of any gear is also super important. The armour isn't going to work well if it's able to rotate away from the impact point.

[AllanB]

I like to wear leather.



On the bike as well.

[caspernz]

I like to wear leather.



On the bike as well.

This comes as no surprise...your next lube order is ready for delivery by the way :devil2:



But jokes aside, in practical terms Gremlin summed it up nicely. Yes leather is better for protection in a tumble, but for everyday use in all weathers, most of us favour fabric gear. Or in some cases a combination of both. If you're commuting it's not ideal to be wearing that one piece leather suit, especially if it's a wet day, so the zip together good quality fabric set is a good compromise.

Just buy the best gear you can afford, and make sure it's a decent fit, but then Gremlin covered that part as well.

[Crasherfromwayback]

top end fabric gear will actually handle abrasion better than most leather.

.

Got something that can back that statement up?

[ellipsis]

...The last time I had an off that drew blood and guts, on the road, my nylon sleeveless overalls did not grab or catch or cause me any problems at all...it was the post at the end of the bridge that caused the damage...

[Cosmik de Bris]

Not all gear is made equal. Poor fabric or leather will blow apart, fail to protect etc. Generally speaking though (so removing the top end fabric/leather and same for bottom end) leather will protect better, fabric will work better weather wise.

Top end fabric gear has things like superfabric and the top end fabric gear will actually handle abrasion better than most leather.

Fit of any gear is also super important. The armour isn't going to work well if it's able to rotate away from the impact point.

If you are going to make statements like this you will need to provide some evidence. You might as well use Daniel Dennett's reasoning; "My friend Lucille says "..." and she is always right.

[The End]

I like to wear leather.



On the bike as well.


Me too


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak10QieTMAk

[Gremlin]

Got something that can back that statement up?
Here's one of the technologies used, and I'm forgetting the other technologies http://superfabric.com/ Bear in mind, here's just the materials that Rukka use: http://www.rukka.com/motorsport/materials

Bear in mind, I said top end fabric. These jackets or pants are often north of $2k and I said most leather. I have no idea which is better, top fabric or top leather, but I stopped wearing leather years ago because realistically, summer is about a month in NZ, and the rest of the time you have a good chance of rain.

These special materials are placed in impact points, not covering the entire garment (too expensive). Plus you've got CE ratings etc.

[Hemi Makutu]

Fabric is more convenient, & likely adequate for general road use,
but AFAIK, - if any prolonged abrasion testing is done, proper leather is still boss..

[PrincessBandit]

My one and only off (sliding down the motorway behind my bike) - results to clothing were: leather jacket ripped open at top and partially shredded across my broken collarbone, white denim jeans barely grazed open leaving small amount of gravel rash on one of my thighs. The jeans were quite heavy duty denim despite being dress ones (I use past tense cos I got too fat to wear them after the accident). The leather jacket ripped open due to, I suspect, the top dome not being clipped closed as I had a scarf which made the dome a bit tight. Had the dome been done up it might not have ripped open to leave particularly nasty road rash across my right shoulder.
So the leather jacket, designed for motorcycle use, while not clipped properly shut, tore open; my legs in dress pants suffered hardly any damage at all.

[Crasherfromwayback]

my legs in dress pants suffered hardly any damage at all.

I've had a couple of reasonably nasty offs in jeans, and they do hold together pretty well.

[Motu]

Everyone has a different story - I've got lots. One time sliding down the road in leather jacket and Levi cords (flared), I had little burn marks on my hip from the rivets, my leather belt was nearly worn through at the hip, small graze on the elbow of the jacket....and there wasn't a mark on the cords.

[PrincessBandit]

... One time sliding down the road in leather jacket and Levi cords (flared)...

Flared cords? Showing your age there...:dodge:

[rocketman1]

It is good to get real reports from riders that have actually been down the road on their backsides.
They are the real test pilots.

[Kickaha]

Fabric is more convenient, & likely adequate for general road use,
but AFAIK, - if any prolonged abrasion testing is done, proper leather is still boss..

Some Kevlar stuff does pass for racing, quite a few sidecar guys in the UK were/are using it although I've seen the same comments about it grabbing and tumbling rather than sliding

I've only once seen someone use it for roadracing bikes here and that was around 20 years ago

[Hemi Makutu]

Fabric does better in the wet, as it slides across & does not tear/melt so readily.
Wet leather is more likely to tear/dig in & tumble you.

Coarse chip is harsher on fabric than leather, but still more 'cheese grater' in effect than smooth hot-mix..

Of course, if you slam into a curb/pole/tree or other solid obstruction at speed, ATGATT just becomes a body bag..

[Motu]

Flared cords? Showing your age there...:dodge:

Just proving you can get to old age without cotton wool.

Speedway riders often wear fabric suits these days....and armour and stuff. It's all a bit more high tech than just wearing leather. I've been around the block a few times and back to where I started - wearing oilskin these day, it's up for a slide.

[nzspokes]

Best of both worlds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3-k2Q-7ry0

[pritch]

I've been expecting a post saying something like, "When the racers wear fabric, I'll wear fabric." There always used to be one.

Touring suits tend to be made of fabric, because it's the most appropriate for that job. Sprotbike riders like leather for the perceived protection and the appearance. Since they are less concerned with rain, leather is appropriate for their usage. Apparently there are hydrophobic leather suits available now but possibly not in NZ, and likely at a cost higher than some bikes.

Many riders, after a year or two, will have both leather and fabric kit.

Fit can be a bit problematic. The gear may fit when you buy it but both leather and textile garments tend to shrink while they are hanging in the wardrobe. Bastards!

[nzspokes]

Many riders, after a year or two, will have both leather and fabric kit.


Yes and wearing the leathers less and less.

[skippa1]

Leather is good,

actually leather is great,

actually leather is the only product that should be worn, wet or dry.....

nothing protects from impact though.....trust me

[ellipsis]

...I have exited my machine on numerous occasions, all while wearing leather, apart from the bone shit, which you can't avoid, my leather shit has always been the bit of cow that saved my bacon...but that's racing...as per my first post in this thread, nothing saves you from the hard thing you hit, and it's not the gravel rash that kills you...just ride and not depend on the hope that your gear will save you...stay upright and don't be a twat is all you can do...that doesn't always work out too...if you listen to shit on here you will never find out who you are...

[Gremlin]

It is good to get real reports from riders that have actually been down the road on their backsides.
They are the real test pilots.
Just backside landings? There are so many variables that you can't really say it's leather v fabric. Road surface (coarse chip is like a grater, hot mix is much smoother), road conditions (if you fall off because you've aquaplaned or there is a lot of water, that's also going to cut you a break on friction) and type of fall. I've known people to come off at 200+ and slide with minimal injuries, and others to cartwheel off the bike at 50-100kph breaking several bones. Of course older riders don't bounce as much as younger riders as well.

I've slid in leather, heavy scuffing and one or two minor injuries. Tumbled in fabric in grass, not a scratch (was also wearing a chest and back protector). Highsided in fabric landing on head and shoulder, still using the jacket, a few threads separated a little in the impact area but it took it remarkably well. Low sided (low speed) and high sided (aquaplane) in Draggin jeans no injuries - couldn't actually tell where the jeans were damaged...

Damaged myself much more mountain biking... perhaps I should wear motorcycle gear :innocent:

[Motu]

my leather belt was nearly worn through at the hip,....and there wasn't a mark on the cords.


Now how does that happen, if leather is so superior for abraision? Now this was a slide long enough for rivet burns, and someone on a bike to stop, park, get off and then help me up just as I hit the curb. I've been a ''leather only for me mate'' type of rider, but also crashed enough in other gear to know it's just not as simple as that. As mentioned before, sliding down the road is a small part of injuries (I've had gravel rash on my arse, arms and legs, so know about sliding down the road) but hiting things, or getting hit by other things is what causes major injury. Armour, I think I like armour now.

[george formby]

Now how does that happen, if leather is so superior for abraision? Now this was a slide long enough for rivet burns, and someone on a bike to stop, park, get off and then help me up just as I hit the curb. I've been a ''leather only for me mate'' type of rider, but also crashed enough in other gear to know it's just not as simple as that. As mentioned before, sliding down the road is a small part of injuries (I've had gravel rash on my arse, arms and legs, so know about sliding down the road) but hiting things, or getting hit by other things is what causes major injury. Armour, I think I like armour now.

Pretty much how I see it. Going for a slide is one thing, impacts are nasty. Consequently I don't worry about abrasion to much, I don't ride in shorts. Armour is something I focus on. At some point I will spring for one of those one piece under armour jackets to wear under my normal bike gear, purely because the armour stays in place unlike the stuff in loose fitting gear whether it be textile or cow.

Speaking of leather, I'm looking for a pair of off road strides with leather panels down the inside of the thighs / legs. Old school mx pants stylee. Like hens teeth.

Leather does not melt easily on the exhaust when your having a lie down under the bike in the shrubbery.

[onearmedbandit]

Sliding vs impact? I remember years ago (maybe 25yrs) my brother having a crash in denim jeans on his GSX400. Massive gravel rash etc but other than the road he hit nothing. 19yrs ago I had a crash in full leathers, no gravel rash but as I hit something solid with my shoulder I have an injury that will be with me forever. Leather helps reduce the abrasions but nothing really helps if you hit something solid ha.

[skippa1]

Sliding vs impact? I remember years ago (maybe 25yrs) my brother having a crash in denim jeans on his GSX400. Massive gravel rash etc but other than the road he hit nothing. 19yrs ago I had a crash in full leathers, no gravel rash but as I hit something solid with my shoulder I have an injury that will be with me forever. Leather helps reduce the abrasions but nothing really helps if you hit something solid ha.
Very true...

[george formby]

Sliding vs impact? I remember years ago (maybe 25yrs) my brother having a crash in denim jeans on his GSX400. Massive gravel rash etc but other than the road he hit nothing. 19yrs ago I had a crash in full leathers, no gravel rash but as I hit something solid with my shoulder I have an injury that will be with me forever. Leather helps reduce the abrasions but nothing really helps if you hit something solid ha.

Years ago I watched a guy lose a high speed wheelie on an original CBR 1000. He ground away the seam on one leg of his jeans and grated himself from ankle (trainers) to waist. I was not too sympathetic, his bike hit mine and totaled it.

[Motu]

Leather does not melt easily on the exhaust when your having a lie down under the bike in the shrubbery.

But leather holds the heat for a long, long time. I took the high pipes off my Rickman and made some low TT pipes for it, by the time you felt the burn in your boots, it was way too late, it just kept on burning your legs. Burnt my hand welding the other day - I had to rip my glove off to stop the burn.

[rambaldi]

Fabric does better in the wet, as it slides across & does not tear/melt so readily.
Wet leather is more likely to tear/dig in & tumble you.

Coarse chip is harsher on fabric than leather, but still more 'cheese grater' in effect than smooth hot-mix..

Of course, if you slam into a curb/pole/tree or other solid obstruction at speed, ATGATT just becomes a body bag..

I know a guy that sells body bags, i think he quoted about $80 for one to a fisherman (for Marlin), maybe I can see about getting one for riding and skipping the middle step...

[Hemi Makutu]

Does that price include the juice pads like meat trays have - to soak up the fluids spillage?

[SNF]

I had a small slide at 45 km/h on damp tarmac/light shipseal. Fabric pants, leather jacket. Barely any damage - scuffed up my boots, scratches on the reflective part on the pants thats it. Diesel on tyres + old bitch doing a u-turn in front of me not indicating = some stunt work that nearly saved the day. But the bumper knocked the back tyre and down I went. Sprained my ankle getting up with 200 kg of bike on top of me.

[old slider]

Probably not the right place, but its pretty close.

Riding clothing with removable armour?

I see quite a few leather and fabric riding jackets with the extra layer of material on the shoulders, elbows etc that covers the removable armour that fits in these areas.

I find the armour quite bulky on my Triumph leather Jacket and have noticed a few riders have removed them from their leather jackets. I would not remove any padding for open road riding, but wondered what your thoughts are for keeping it in for town and about riding?

[russd7]

Probably not the right place, but its pretty close.

Riding clothing with removable armour?

I see quite a few leather and fabric riding jackets with the extra layer of material on the shoulders, elbows etc that covers the removable armour that fits in these areas.

I find the armour quite bulky on my Triumph leather Jacket and have noticed a few riders have removed them from their leather jackets. I would not remove any padding for open road riding, but wondered what your thoughts are for keeping it in for town and about riding?

what you talkin bout willis, since when has shorts singlet and jandals had armour in them. what more do ya need for a short ride round town or up to the naki

[old slider]

what you talkin bout willis, since when has shorts singlet and jandals had armour in them. what more do ya need for a short ride round town or up to the naki


Believe it or not I had a big fella ride past me doing about 70kms in a 50km zone wearing exactly that clothing, well apart from the tiny plastic helmet that flew off of his head, I couldn't believe my eyes when he did a u turn to go pick it up off the footpath where it had landed, he had the biggest grin I have seen in awhile, maybe he was pleased that he could finally lower his arms off the ridiculous Ape hangers that looked to be higher than his head.

[Roark]

Too bad Gore-Tex laminated leather went out of style for some reason, because they're the shit. Used to be at least Alpinestars, Dainese, Aerostitch and Rukka making suits. Now there's only Rukka with their stupidly expensive Merlin jacket and pants.

I managed to pick up a pair of Alpinestars 365 goretex leather pants from a closeout sale a few years back and they're the best pants I ever had, after some minor armor upgrades. They had ran out of jackets in my size, but still it's a lot quicker to put on a just rain jacket compared to trying to pull rain pants over damp leathers and boots when is starts raining.
On trips to Scotland and the Isle of Man the pants have proven their water resistance, too, people ain't lying when it comes to UK weather :shit:

Also yay, first post here!

[Jerry74]

Leather all the way for me... dainese and alpinestars survived well. Bit of a tidy up and good as gold to wear again.

Textile can be ok but best to get top quality.

Personal choice really.

[Souper]

Reading through this makes me realise I have to get some better fitting gear. The armour in trouser is half way up my thighs when I'm on the bike. Bloody difficult to find off the shelf stuff for tall lanky fellas though...

[GazzaH]

Stop buying it for them and get yourself some gear then!

Leather or fabric makes little difference:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_lembpHmlPsM/Sq05W5PQdYI/AAAAAAAAAFY/QU7BhOdX5eA/s400/ouch.jpg

[caspernz]

Leather or fabric makes little difference:

Oh there's a difference. I'll wear fabric stuff when it suits the situation, but I accept it's less than optimal. Check out the video below, fabric wouldn't do well in that situation...

https://youtu.be/KKLYrG7_oYk

[Ghost Lemur]

Oh there's a difference. I'll wear fabric stuff when it suits the situation, but I accept it's less than optimal. Check out the video below, fabric wouldn't do well in that situation...

https://youtu.be/KKLYrG7_oYkBrilliant. Sums it up really.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[GazzaH]

Entertaining vid ... but that's not a scientific test. The guy didn't even compare leather with fabric.

[James Deuce]

Every bike accident is totally subjective in respect to each individual incident. You can only do your best. Best is governed by perceived risk, available cash and practicality. The best accident avoidance tactic is being happy and comfortable. Then you layer gear and skill and observation and everything else on top. How you get comfortable and happy is up to you, but I really think that masturbation is a thing best left in private.

[husaberg]

Got something that can back that statement up?

Years ago FB or PB did a test with a linishing belt simple Kelar weave was the winner.
they used simple $10 kelar gloves that looked like normal cotton gloves
http://www.superiorglove.com/system/images/2194/original/SKWCP-480-Emerald-CX-Composite-Kevlar-Stainless-Steel-Polyester-Cut-Resistant-Glove-IMG.jpg
That is not to say thats the only requirement for protective gear.

[FJRider]

Years ago FB or PB did a test with a linishing belt simple Kelar weave was the winner.
they used simple $10 kelar gloves that looked like normal cotton gloves


That is not to say thats the only requirement for protective gear.

Do you mean KEVLAR ... ??? :innocent:

[husaberg]

Do you mean KEVLAR ... ??? :innocent:
v buttons Stuck?

[FJRider]

v buttons Stuck?

CRC will fix it ... Cassina will tell you the same .... <_<

[FJRider]

Every bike accident is totally subjective in respect to each individual incident. You can only do your best. Best is governed by perceived risk, available cash and practicality. The best accident avoidance tactic is being happy and comfortable. Then you layer gear and skill and observation and everything else on top. How you get comfortable and happy is up to you, but I really think that masturbation is a thing best left in private.

Mostly it is depending on most convenience for ...

a. Ride to be made.

b. Affordability for the rider.

c. Image you wish to present.

No protective gear will ever keep you unscathed in EVERY accident situation. Most will just reduce a lot of damage.

The best gear you can afford may not keep you alive ... but that's the way to bet. Some win ... some lose.

[husaberg]

CRC will fix it ... Cassina will tell you the same .... <_<

Cassinas on a a group ride with Katmans and Axkel and oldie at the moment

[AllanB]

Cassinas on a a group ride with Katmans and Axkel and oldie at the moment


Ouch - that's a bit hard on those three isn't it?

[husaberg]

Ouch - that's a bit hard on those three isn't it?
only if you don't know Katman and Cassina are actually the same person.

[James Deuce]

Mostly it is depending on most convenience for ...

a. Ride to be made.

b. Affordability for the rider.

c. Image you wish to present.

No protective gear will ever keep you unscathed in EVERY accident situation. Most will just reduce a lot of damage.

The best gear you can afford may not keep you alive ... but that's the way to bet. Some win ... some lose.

Yeah. That's what I said.

[FJRider]

Cassinas on a a group ride with Katmans and Axkel and oldie at the moment

Who's riding who ... ??? :confused:

[GrahamA]

It is good to get real reports from riders that have actually been down the road on their backsides.
They are the real test pilots.

There is one big off I'll admit to. Guzzi V11 Sport. Wet road and raining. Overtaking two cars at once on a straight road. Hit shiny spot at (ahem) 110. Low sided. Slid a loooong way but not as far as the bike which slid rotating and shedding $ signs ahead of me. BMW oversuit looked like a colander afterwards. Dainese Diablo leather suit just minor scrapes. BMW helmet written off. No injuries apart from a few bruises and badly dented ego.

When road racers wear other than leather I may too.

So easy to add a rain oversuit to keep dry in leathers. I prefer two piece ones and often wear just the top over leathers when it's cold. An easy way to shed warmth as the day warms without having to remove a jacket to get at what's worn under it.

If I was just commuting at slow speeds I would consider fabric though.

[R650R]

Had a lapse of concentration and foolishly put the fornt end on a manhole cover on frosty morning recently....
First tarmac off in Textile, low speed and my older RST jacket that I only use for going to work....
Was surprised at the amount of damage at impact point, which was right on one of those button bits that snug sleeves tighter, munted the metal button and small $2 coin size rip in outer material.
My double layer heavy duty cotton work pants actually sustained less damage, only slightly ripping outer layer by knee and the obligatory friction grab/burn - graze.
Think textiles defenitaly be single use only in anything faster than this which was about 30k on 90 deg lefty....

[Banditbandit]

When road racers wear other than leather I may too.




YES !!! Racing riders do NOT wear Fabric ... what does that tell you ???

[rambaldi]

YES !!! Racing riders do NOT wear Fabric ... what does that tell you ???

And basketball players don't use the granny-style shot when throwing free pointers. In this instance (using leather) it is probably for a reason but it isn't always because it is better.

[SPman]

When I first moved over the ditch, I can recall looking at the local road surface, sharp facetted granite chip with all the pointy bits up, about 2 grit, and thinking " shit, I wouldn't want to arse off and slide down this road!".
Well, thanks to stray wildlife, I did, and I did! A 70kph faceplant over the bars. Luckily I was still in the NZ
habit of wearing full leathers, etc. I ground through my right shoulder and shirt, both knee sliders down to nubbins, and the front and visor of an Arai! A wee bit of scarring on my shoulder is the only reminder.
I just don't want to think what it would have been like with the fabric jacket and draggins.....

[R650R]

After watching the vid below and checking motocap site don’t think I’ll ever buy textiles again... already moving back to leathers.
One interesting thing of note “Burst strength” is behaviour of product typically in a lower speed crash where you drive a limb harder and more directly into the ground than say a higher speed long slide impact. Chip seal abrasion is 4 times more than ashphalt.
The motocap Webb site show some even the expensive Klim gear is only 3/10 compared to my cheaper 1/10 gear, leather product size typically acting close to if not an actual 10/10....


https://youtu.be/n22vtWc8QRw

[Frodo]

After watching the vid below and checking motocap site don’t think I’ll ever buy textiles again... already moving back to leathers.
One interesting thing of note “Burst strength” is behaviour of product typically in a lower speed crash where you drive a limb harder and more directly into the ground than say a higher speed long slide impact. Chip seal abrasion is 4 times more than ashphalt.
The motocap Webb site show some even the expensive Klim gear is only 3/10 compared to my cheaper 1/10 gear, leather product size typically acting close to if not an actual 10/10....

Great video, but it didn't review textile gear (i.e. not jeans). The video showed the difference between single layer and lined jeans and the importance of armour.
I wear DriRider textile/leather clothing, rather than leather, to look forward to the textile review that is coming soon..
My main concern on the roads I ride is not so much the slide but hitting objects on the side of the road, including armco barriers.

[george formby]

Great video, but it didn't review textile gear (i.e. not jeans). The video showed the difference between single layer and lined jeans and the importance of armour.
I wear DriRider textile/leather clothing, rather than leather, to look forward to the textile review that is coming soon..
My main concern on the roads I ride is not so much the slide but hitting objects on the side of the road, including armco barriers.

Yup, it's the objects I really try to avoid. Gravel rash is one thing, smacking a lamp post is a different ball game.

I recently bought a new textile jacket and for the first time ever the armour sits where it should and tightens into place. No wobbling or deflection.

Having had knee pads and elbow pads pushed out of place in the past, this is a biggie for me.

[rastuscat]

Yup, it's the objects I really try to avoid. Gravel rash is one thing, smacking a lamp post is a different ball game.

I recently bought a new textile jacket and for the first time ever the armour sits where it should and tightens into place. No wobbling or deflection.

Having had knee pads and elbow pads pushed out of place in the past, this is a biggie for me.

Some pads in some gear is there more to hold the shape of the garment when it is being sold.

Like, many flimsy back protectors are there to keep the jacket in shape when hanging on a sales rack. They aren't actually very protective.

[george formby]

Some pads in some gear is there more to hold the shape of the garment when it is being sold.

Like, many flimsy back protectors are there to keep the jacket in shape when hanging on a sales rack. They aren't actually very protective.

Yup, I made sure of the rating for the pads in my new jacket.

The armour in my old leather jacket disintegrated. Glad I didn't test it.

[R650R]

Great video, but it didn't review textile gear (i.e. not jeans). The video showed the difference between single layer and lined jeans and the importance of armour.
I wear DriRider textile/leather clothing, rather than leather, to look forward to the textile review that is coming soon..
My main concern on the roads I ride is not so much the slide but hitting objects on the side of the road, including armco barriers.

If your hitting solid objects at roadside it will be of concern for mere nano second shift before you depart to a place where you never have concerns again....
Although a flatmate of mine was very fortunate that a proper track spec back protector saved his spine in a glancing blow to a power pole after a crash that started at 130k. His internal organs weren’t as happy as his spine though and he was very lucky to enjoy a long painful recovery.
Armour is for spreading the load and reducing point loads but a severe impact is still going to be severe injury.
I think marketing hype is overstating levels of protection

[R650R]

Well I put my money where my mouth is and blew a full weeks wages on a mid to high end rated brand name two piece leathers.
Its tested and rated AAA (best) for protection and CE2 (best) tested and rated for its included hip knee shoulder and back amour.
I’m very happy and my textiles will only see light of day on known super cold wet adventures.
Interestingly many manufacturers now offer leather jackets with integrated airbags for what looks like not too much extra cash, probably be mainstream offering very soon.

[husaberg]

Well I put my money where my mouth is and blew a full weeks wages on a mid to high end rated brand name two .

shit you got a new suit for your weekly wage of $500, great deal:laugh:

[F5 Dave]

Don't be so cruel. You can get some great Lookalike deals on AliExpress