The Death of Castro - Beloved revolutionary or Tyrannical Dictator?

[TheDemonLord]

This is asked of the Kiwibiker Konspiracy Krew, those who are typically opposed to the aforementioned group and anyone with an assho... Opinion! I mean Opinion!

So the questions:

1: What is your view of Fidel Castro?

Was he a visionary and revolutionary, virtuous and beloved?
Was he a Tyrant and a Dictator, Brutal and despised?

2: What of his passing?

Do you hope that the rift between Cuba and the US will be healed, ushering in a new era for Cuba?
So you hope that Cuba will stay away from the West, looking to other nations to a bond with?

[Katman]

2: What of his passing?

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2016/11/covert-cia-plot-wait-fidel-castro-dies-old-age-successful/

[TheDemonLord]

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2016/11/covert-cia-plot-wait-fidel-castro-dies-old-age-successful/

I'll admit - that article was hilarious!

[Katman]

A question for you then.....

Do you think the CIA's numerous attempts to assassinate Castro were justified?

[Akzle]

:

1: What is your view of Fidel Castro?

Was he a visionary and revolutionary, virtuous and beloved?
Was he a Tyrant and a Dictator, Brutal and despised?
meh.


2: What of his passing?

Do you hope that the rift between Cuba and the US will be healed, ushering in a new era for Cuba?
So you hope that Cuba will stay away from the West, looking to other nations to a bond with?

a) it's a conspiracy, man. he drove my taxi to winz this morning

b)(for clarity i take "the west" to mean "dem whitey nations in servitude of israel and jewgolds") so obviously, i would encourage them to ally with not-the-west.

[EJK]

Never forget

Fidel Castro
1926 - 2016

<img width="400" src="http://www.daytodaygk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ch-po-rewolucji.jpg" />

[pritch]

A question for you then.....

Do you think the CIA's numerous attempts to assassinate Castro were justified?

Question for who?

Listening to the various reactions I'm reminded that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. The US politicians like to point to Cuba's economic performance under Castro, but how much of that was due to the US trade embargo? And you can bet yer arse that if any of those nine US presidents that Castro outlasted wanted a Cuban cigar, he got one, however illegal it may have been.

Castro went to the US after his successful coup but President Eisenhower refused to see him. So Castro went to see Kruchev. Might have saved the world from going to the brink of nuclear war if Ike had met the man.

Nelson Mandela, who was held in high esteem in most places, regarded Castro as a great friend of Africa. The Cuban Army is regarded as being instrumental in the downfall of apartheid. Of course the CIA didn't regard Mandela in high esteem, they had him listed as a terrorist until well after he was President.

It's hard to get at the truth. Cuba reputedly has great free education and health systems. They have supplied Africa with Doctors for many years including the recent Ebola outbreak. Others say that Cuba's health system is broken unless you are a foreigner or wealthy. Who knows?

Be a nice place to go for a holiday?

[TheDemonLord]

A question for you then.....

Do you think the CIA's numerous attempts to assassinate Castro were justified?

First answer would be whether or not I felt assasinations were justified.

As a general rule, excluding war, I'm against assassinations from the point of view that if a person is to be executed for their crimes (which I don't have an issue with) - they should have the right to trial, to face their accuser and to answer the charges.

You will note I excluded war - so for example a drone strike, or tomahawk strike or other specific attack on a person (such as a general or admiral or leader) - I'm okay with.

however - when applied to heads of state, the ability to arrest, charge etc. is negated by the fact they usually reside within a sovereign country and any attempt to arrest would likely result in a full scale war. Not to mention the complexities of crimes committed across borders or Human rights violations.

When it comes to should we then assassinate heads of state who violate human rights - there are a few I can think of who I would not have shed a tear if they had met with a sudden end - however this must be contrasted with the fact that assassination frequently leads to an even worse leader to either assume power or be elected, rarely does the power vacuum favor a more moderate governance. In short - Assassination rarely results in the desired outcome - to use the axiom 'Better the devil you know'

Then we need to look at Castro and the historical context, now before I start, I have only a brief overview of that period of time (It's not a segment of history that is hugely interesting of itself, typically its an interesting chapter in the wider Cold War era) but my thoughts are that the attempts by the US certainly helped make US policy and resolve in the matter well and truly understood - whether this effected Castro's decision making is up in the air - although post 1970, I understand that the relationship between the US and Cuba was not as tense as it has been during the 1960s.

All factors considered - I'd probably side with No, I don't think the CIA operations were justified, but I will also add that they were a product of their time and should be treated as such.

[oldrider]

First answer would be whether or not I felt assasinations were justified.

As a general rule, excluding war, I'm against assassinations from the point of view that if a person is to be executed for their crimes (which I don't have an issue with) - they should have the right to trial, to face their accuser and to answer the charges.

You will note I excluded war - so for example a drone strike, or tomahawk strike or other specific attack on a person (such as a general or admiral or leader) - I'm okay with.

however - when applied to heads of state, the ability to arrest, charge etc. is negated by the fact they usually reside within a sovereign country and any attempt to arrest would likely result in a full scale war. Not to mention the complexities of crimes committed across borders or Human rights violations.

When it comes to should we then assassinate heads of state who violate human rights - there are a few I can think of who I would not have shed a tear if they had met with a sudden end - however this must be contrasted with the fact that assassination frequently leads to an even worse leader to either assume power or be elected, rarely does the power vacuum favor a more moderate governance. In short - Assassination rarely results in the desired outcome - to use the axiom 'Better the devil you know'

Then we need to look at Castro and the historical context, now before I start, I have only a brief overview of that period of time (It's not a segment of history that is hugely interesting of itself, typically its an interesting chapter in the wider Cold War era) but my thoughts are that the attempts by the US certainly helped make US policy and resolve in the matter well and truly understood - whether this effected Castro's decision making is up in the air - although post 1970, I understand that the relationship between the US and Cuba was not as tense as it has been during the 1960s.

All factors considered - I'd probably side with No, I don't think the CIA operations were justified, but I will also add that they were a product of their time and should be treated as such.

I spent some time as a guest of the Panamanian government during the Kennedy / Khrushchev stand-off over Cuba - that was some serious shit going on then! :corn:

[Katman]

You will note I excluded war - so for example a drone strike, or tomahawk strike or other specific attack on a person (such as a general or admiral or leader) - I'm okay with.


Really???

Even if it's the bad cunts assassinating a good guy?

[TheDemonLord]

Really???

Even if it's the bad cunts assassinating a good guy?

If its in War, then I judge it accordingly.

I'm not cool with specifically targetting named non-combatants outside of a war.

That all said - I'd probably still be a bit pissed at the time (should it happen).

[Big Dog]

1, he was different things at different times to different people. The answer has to be both.
As a rebel and a leader I respect and admire him and his fortitude... Maybe not some of his methods.
Much the same as el Che.

2. It's just not cricket without a formal declaration of war... But as you say, these things should be judged on the times they occurred in.

I wasn't there, but from what little knowledge I have it seems likely things would have been very different for the Cuban people if the world at large had not shunned them and Fidel would be remembered more fondly by more people.
Finally it is worth wondering how the people's satisfaction with his leadership is viewed buy those who lived during the Battista era.


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[pete376403]

seems about right.

[R650R]

over the last few years he penned some very insightful articles here.... http://www.globalresearch.ca/author/fidel-castro-ruz

A quick run down of the hit points against him in Daily Mail article vs western politicians.....

Cuban missile crisis-The American warhawks wanted war too....
Gays and others 'reeducated' Well we have the samne but other way in todays western world....
Human righst abuses.... well we have gitmo, rendition, drone strikes.....
Lots of money, luxury mansions and loose woman..... oh yeah kike no western politicians do that or worse.....
Health and Education... well they admit flat out he got it right... guess that happens when you actually spend the taxes on the people...

We don't live there so we'll only ever know what the corporate media wants us to know about him....

[AllanB]

Should I give a shit?

Guess there will be more Hipsters wearing T-shirts with his face on them now.

Should I give a shit?

[JimO]

Should I give a shit?

Guess there will be more Hipsters wearing T-shirts with his face on them now.

Should I give a shit?
do you know where i can get a T shirt

[AllanB]

do you know where i can get a T shirt

Jesus - look at them all - it;s a friggen epidemic!

https://www.zazzle.co.nz/castro+mens+tshirts

[oldrider]

If its in War, then I judge it accordingly.

I'm not cool with specifically targetting named non-combatants outside of a war.

That all said - I'd probably still be a bit pissed at the time (should it happen).

Normalcy in abundance - as long as it was the authorities (Clinton etc) carrying out the assassination (act of terrorism) you are OK to go with it? - Yeah right! :facepalm:

[TheDemonLord]

Normalcy in abundance - as long as it was the authorities (Clinton etc) carrying out the assassination (act of terrorism) you are OK to go with it? - Yeah right! :facepalm:

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

Assume for the minute that NZ and Australia are at war - as part of the strategy to win the War, we send over a special forces team to blow up the Australian cabinet.

I'm okay with that - its part of a strategy in a war time situation and since the Govt. is part of the military command structure, they are a valid military target (IMO)

Now - compare this with the NZ army doing the same with no decleration of war - That is as you say an act of terrorism.

[oldrider]

That's a complete misrepresentation of what I said.

Assume for the minute that NZ and Australia are at war - as part of the strategy to win the War, we send over a special forces team to blow up the Australian cabinet.

I'm okay with that - its part of a strategy in a war time situation and since the Govt. is part of the military command structure, they are a valid military target (IMO)

Now - compare this with the NZ army doing the same with no decleration of war - That is as you say an act of terrorism.

Well if you mean the way that Washington continually interferes in other countries politics by destabilising and replacing governments that don't suit them - yes!

The impression gained from your postings is that you support that and them :shifty: and IMHO they currently are the most active terrorists in the world! :facepalm:

[Swoop]

Cuban missile crisis-The American warhawks wanted war too...
Only a couple.
The "invasion option" was tossed about quite a bit, but sense prevailed. The best path was followed (blockade).

Castro started out as a revolutionary, then sold out to communism. Inviting Soviet forces onto his soil and having no control over them was a mistake.

Local Release Authority on the nukes? Fucking stupidity at its highest.



I guess the best people to ask about Castro's death, would be those who fled their own country.





...we send over a special forces team to blow up the Australian cabinet.
Well... doing that would raise the average IQ of Australia quite a bit.:laugh:

[SPman]

I think I read somewhere there were approx 638 attempts or plans on Fidel's life, over his lifetime........

Yes, he was a bit tyrannical towards those he ousted - as every thinking revolutionary should be if he doesn't want the establishment in the country to oust him, and he should have eased off once he was established, but, the estimate is about 9,000 killed under his watch - including people killed during the initial revolutionary fighting and in the Bay of Pigs invasion - rather less than in many of those countries under CIA influence who have been busy denouncing him as a tyrant! On an absolutist human rights scale, not good, but...........

How many know that .....
Cuba played a crucial role in sustaining the liberation struggles throughout Southern Africa. If Castro had done nothing else, he would deserve warm remembrance for that. But much less well-known in Europe is Cuba’s extraordinary contribution to healthcare throughout Africa. Ghanaian, Togolese and Beninois villages and hospitals had excellent Cuban doctors, and I know part-Cuban families in each of those countries as a result. I am sure it was widespread across much of Africa, I just highlight that for which I can personally vouch. That a tiny island, itself a victim of colonialism and slavery, should be able to make a contribution to African healthcare that can without a stretch be mentioned in the same sentence as the aid efforts of the major western powers, is an incredible achievement. It was of course the export of Cuba’s tremendous domestic achievement in healthcare and education

For all their hardships...mainly imposed by a vindictive USA and "allies", Cubans are some of the healthiest and longest living people in the world.


Castro went to the US after his successful coup but President Eisenhower refused to see him. So Castro went to see Kruchev. Might have saved the world from going to the brink of nuclear war if Ike had met the man. I always thought it was ludicrous, the whole situation with the US - like a bully whose pride has been pricked and spends the next 60 yrs on the sidelines throwing stones......and whining!