Nutty season on the roads

[AllanB]

I do not know what it is about this time of year.

I have a local road I ride most weekends year long. Maybe two or three times during the year I see some silly car action. More often that not is is silly motorcycle passing action witnessed during the year.

But in the past couple of days I have witnessed absolute stupid passing moves by drivers. Blind wideish corners, wrong side of the road, open road speeds - both times the drivers to their credit (?) were totally committed to their moronic move as they continued to pass a second vehicle ........ WTF - got away with one- lets try another?

In a funny twist today, I stopped for fuel on the way back as did a car driver - turns out he was behind me when todays silly actions started - he commented that I almost made him shit his pants when I passed him earlier - bike noise and he was in the humdrum of stuck in a line of slow cars - but he started paying attention when I started braking for no apparent reason. I'd seen the car pull out with no reasonable vision of the other side of the road (think - bikes sit higher than cars and accelerate like hell, and I'm thinking - farrrkk I'd not pull that move on my bike) and started pulling back in expectation of potential mayhem.

Anyway - the car driver commented - there is something very wrong on the road ahead when it's a motorcycle rider you see shaking his head! - as in people are usually shaking their heads at us!


Worst thing is, the statistical chances of a crash in both cases were car vs motorcycle due to the roads popularity with bikes. ACC would have stacked this up as another motorcycle injury/death.


So I have been wondering a bit this evening about Xmas nutters - my theory is there are a fair number of reasons for the sillyness:

Volume of traffic = frustration (lack of self control)

Lack of open road experience (annual holiday after 50 weeks of suburban tootling)

Brain fart.



The later happens to all, hopefully without dire consequences to others.



Stay safe.

[Akzle]

having clicked up 2300 km last week (caged with children :'( ) i've actually been 90% OK with what i've seen.

still slow cunts impeding, and speeding up at every passing oportunity, and my searing hatred of rav4s hasn't decrased. but mostly just fatalistic cruising.
being that i'm a fuckinggooddriver™ i tend to notice my bubble expands and people around me tend to shed the fuckwittery.

[mossy1200]

Still slow cunts impeding, and speeding up at every passing opportunity.

This never impresses me. Some will sit on 85 then hit 110+ in a passing lane only to slow down again after.

[AllanB]

Some (read too many) drivers slow down way to much on corners. And this is leaving my motorcycle brain on hold - car mode if you like.


We have had a decent rant on a rider training thread recently - driver training is just as important. My daughter has just done a session so she can get her full license earlier - interesting what they were teaching her.

Would it be really awful if we all had to do 'regular' compulsory training? I don't know - maybe every 7 years or so. Refresh on the road rules type stuff - reminder of how to behave - that type of shit.


And multi lane roundabouts. Christchurch has a few now - speeds are way too high and so many fuckers have no idea of how to treat the lanes. Last year had a odd number of trucks 'falling over' on them .........

I detest them. Entering one is akin to playing Russian roulette but with say 21 chambers .......

[caspernz]

Would it be really awful if we all had to do 'regular' compulsory training? I don't know - maybe every 7 years or so. Refresh on the road rules type stuff - reminder of how to behave - that type of shit.


It's a good idea, but it has to go hand in hand with meaningful enforcement. In my line of work I find most folks can put on a decent show during an assessment, then for the next 6 months just go back to their old ways.

[Akzle]

Some (read too many) drivers slow down way to much on corners. And this is leaving my motorcycle brain on hold - car mode if you like.


We have had a decent rant on a rider training thread recently - driver training is just as important. My daughter has just done a session so she can get her full license earlier - interesting what they were teaching her.

Would it be really awful if we all had to do 'regular' compulsory training? I don't know - maybe every 7 years or so. Refresh on the road rules type stuff - reminder of how to behave - that type of shit.


And multi lane roundabouts. Christchurch has a few now - speeds are way too high and so many fuckers have no idea of how to treat the lanes. Last year had a odd number of trucks 'falling over' on them .........

I detest them. Entering one is akin to playing Russian roulette but with say 21 chambers .......



vote akzle. i'll halve the road going population overnight. police will have mounted .30 cals. no speed limits.

[pritch]

This never impresses me. Some will sit on 85 then hit 110+ in a passing lane only to slow down again after.

Those guys are speedsters. On my last road trip twice I got stuck behind lines of cars following someone doing 80kph and north of Otorohanga one doing 70kph.

And the cops who saw these line ups did nothing.

[Gremlin]

It's not only the open road. As businesses were winding down prior to Christmas, you could almost see the drop in driving skill on the motorways. The people that were there gone, replaced with fresh people, not normally on the motorway or in congested traffic... and doing the stupidest things...

As for my holiday travels (only 1-1.5k in a week) it was mostly on gravel or minor roads. Going from the Waikato back to Auckland I completely avoided all the motorways (or for SH2, was that carpark? hehehe) and had a lovely run with minimal traffic. Highly recommend staying away from other vehicles. 100% effective at reducing the chance of seeing/being involved in, idiocy.

[Laava]

Those guys are speedsters. On my last road trip twice I got stuck behind lines of cars following someone doing 80kph and north of Otorohanga one doing 70kph.

And the cops who saw these line ups did nothing.

Some of these people are the "70 kph everywhere" people. They have figured that you are just better to do an "average" 70kmh for optimum benefit. They go hard out in town and then just trickle along on the open road. Shoot them, shoot them now!

[R650R]

Some (read too many) drivers slow down way to much on corners. And this is leaving my motorcycle brain on hold - car mode if you like.


We have had a decent rant on a rider training thread recently - driver training is just as important. My daughter has just done a session so she can get her full license earlier - interesting what they were teaching her.

Would it be really awful if we all had to do 'regular' compulsory training? I don't know - maybe every 7 years or so. Refresh on the road rules type stuff - reminder of how to behave - that type of shit.


And multi lane roundabouts. Christchurch has a few now - speeds are way too high and so many fuckers have no idea of how to treat the lanes. Last year had a odd number of trucks 'falling over' on them .........

I detest them. Entering one is akin to playing Russian roulette but with say 21 chambers .......

Should be instant loss of licence to be seen braking after the apex of a corner at a speed where even if it was wet there is no danger of loss of control. Some people seem to need to feel the brake pedal like some safety blanket that might be gone if they don't touch it every two seconds....
And multilane roundabouts on single lane highways.... there's a real cracker in Napier with three exits only, inner lane marked for right turns only but people still insist on try to go straight thru....never ends well as the outer lane is straight thru/left and right turn (inner lane effectively too tight for trucks)....

[AllanB]

Same road today. Same silly passing x 2.

Time to avoid it for a few weeks I think. On the bright side most are back at work next week so the usual behavior may apply.

[jafagsx250]

Most of the silly over takes would probably be averted if the slow drivers pulled over in....... I don't know. Maybe the slow vehicle lane? I have been stuck behind a bus or a car towing a trailer for kilometers because they don't pull over and there aren't many safe places to pass them.

And people going 100 in the right lane. It's not a fast lane but if people want to risk a ticket then just move over.

I think having to beat a certain time around a race track as part of your license may help. Think about the revenue that would be gathered year round by shit drivers being unlicensed

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[AllanB]

Most of the silly over takes would probably be averted if the slow drivers pulled over in....... I don't know. Maybe the slow vehicle lane?

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You are correct that in all cases I have seen it is a train of vehicles trundling along behind someone doing 80 or so. No dedicated passing lanes on this stretch.


To their credit I have also seen some drivers pulling heavy loads pull aside to allow traffic to pass - obviously people who actually look in their mirrors.


Tell you one thing I have noticed the grass on the roads edge is bloody long presently - to the point where if in a car visibility around a sweeper or the likes is severely reduced.

I also noticed it's a great hiding place for the police lately. Crafty buggers.

[Akzle]

Most of the silly over takes would probably be averted if the slow drivers pulled over in....... I don't know. Maybe the slow vehicle lane? I have been stuck behind a bus or a car towing a trailer for kilometers because they don't pull over and there aren't many safe places to pass them.

And people going 100 in the right lane. It's not a fast lane but if people want to risk a ticket then just move over.

I think having to beat a certain time around a race track as part of your license may help. Think about the revenue that would be gathered year round by shit drivers being unlicensed

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mother-fucking-vote-fucken-akzle.

licenses are issued by getting within 10% of a rally driver's time.
re-sat every 2 years. (and it's free)

reigonal licenses, with huge letters painted on your car "A" for aucklander - not allowed to drive any where else (ever)
("T" for other townies - limited to their towns) "W" for woman, not allowed to drive over 80, "O" for old cunt (anyone over 40), just as a courtesy notice,
"R" for rural driver - basically a permit to drive anywhere.
If you want to leave your town you apply for a holiday permit (and pass the appropriate test)
everyone gets an orange light that can be switched on for when you're drunk.
anyone breaching the stamp gets the shit kicked out of them, second offense they get shot.

[russd7]

Most of the silly over takes would probably be averted if the slow drivers pulled over in....... I don't know. Maybe the slow vehicle lane? I have been stuck behind a bus or a car towing a trailer for kilometers because they don't pull over and there aren't many safe places to pass them.

And people going 100 in the right lane. It's not a fast lane but if people want to risk a ticket then just move over.

I think having to beat a certain time around a race track as part of your license may help. Think about the revenue that would be gathered year round by shit drivers being unlicensed

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

after driving from nelson to invercargill in a van that was burning oil in the rear cylinder and starting to make really bad noises (it did make it home) i will give you my thoughts on pulling over. quite simply put they can get fucked, i knew i was slow on hills so and with all the traffic on the lewis i decided in my wisdom to take the quieter route down the buller and grey valley to stillwater then through to jacksons, once i got on the greymouth chch road i did the whole pull over whenever i could and even waving vehicles through when stopped at one lane bridges, now i was trying to keep momentum up to get good runs at the steeper stuff but fuckwits in their cars who can't fucken drive and braking for corners that they should take easily at over a 100km in a car, now it must be asians ect you may say, but a lot of these vehicles had bike racks full of pushies, the last straw came when coming up to the otira, now i know the old girl was gonna struggle gettin up there so i stopped and let the road clear behind me and had a nice wee gap when i took off and fuck me if i didn't catch up to the useless fuckers and was eventually in 1st gear crawling up the otira in a line of traffic. turns out i should have stayed in front of them and would have had a clear road in front of me.

the other thing that would fuck me off is people not passing when i pulled well to the left with good visibilty for them to pass. i eventually said to the wife that they can get fucked, i stopped worrying about the dicks behind me and therefor my stress levels dropped tremendously.

[jafagsx250]

after driving from nelson to invercargill in a van that was burning oil in the rear cylinder and starting to make really bad noises (it did make it home) i will give you my thoughts on pulling over. quite simply put they can get fucked, i knew i was slow on hills so and with all the traffic on the lewis i decided in my wisdom to take the quieter route down the buller and grey valley to stillwater then through to jacksons, once i got on the greymouth chch road i did the whole pull over whenever i could and even waving vehicles through when stopped at one lane bridges, now i was trying to keep momentum up to get good runs at the steeper stuff but fuckwits in their cars who can't fucken drive and braking for corners that they should take easily at over a 100km in a car, now it must be asians ect you may say, but a lot of these vehicles had bike racks full of pushies, the last straw came when coming up to the otira, now i know the old girl was gonna struggle gettin up there so i stopped and let the road clear behind me and had a nice wee gap when i took off and fuck me if i didn't catch up to the useless fuckers and was eventually in 1st gear crawling up the otira in a line of traffic. turns out i should have stayed in front of them and would have had a clear road in front of me.

the other thing that would fuck me off is people not passing when i pulled well to the left with good visibilty for them to pass. i eventually said to the wife that they can get fucked, i stopped worrying about the dicks behind me and therefor my stress levels dropped tremendously.

I can see where you're coming from. I hate people who overtake and then drive slowly on the corners.

The thing is everyone usually thinks that everyone else is driving badly and don't want to have a look in the mirror. Or they say that they follow the law so its ok.

[pritch]

I hate people who overtake and then drive slowly on the corners.



I don't tend to be overtaken very often, :innocent: but I saw a lot of people who brake for every bend in the road, even bends that could be taken at waaay over 100kph. They and their mates who cruise at 70 or 80kph are the cause of a lot of frustration which is potentially dangerous but the cops pay zero attention.

[Akzle]

I don't tend to be overtaken very often, :innocent: but I saw a lot of people who brake for every bend in the road, even bends that could be taken at waaay over 100kph. They and their mates who cruise at 70 or 80kph are the cause of a lot of frustration which could be dangerous but the cops pay zero attention.

vote akzle

[jafagsx250]

I don't tend to be overtaken very often, :innocent: but I saw a lot of people who brake for every bend in the road, even bends that could be taken at waaay over 100kph. They and their mates who cruise at 70 or 80kph are the cause of a lot of frustration which is potentially dangerous but the cops pay zero attention.

Well if you're driving a slow car you end up being overtaken a lot.

Even my hyosung overtake most people if I can coax it to go to top speed of 140 haha.

On most of the 55 and 65 corners on state highway 16 you can do 120 on.

The cops will happily ping you for passing a dangerous driver but won't bother the person holding 20 people up.

[jasonu]

You are correct that in all cases I have seen it is a train of vehicles trundling along behind someone doing 80 or so. No dedicated passing lanes on this stretch.


To their credit I have also seen some drivers pulling heavy loads pull aside to allow traffic to pass - obviously people who actually look in their mirrors.


Tell you one thing I have noticed the grass on the roads edge is bloody long presently - to the point where if in a car visibility around a sweeper or the likes is severely reduced.

I also noticed it's a great hiding place for the police lately. Sneaky revenue gathering cunts.

Fixed it.....

[jasonu]

mother-fucking-vote-fucken-akzle.

licenses are issued by getting within 10% of a rally driver's time.
re-sat every 2 years. (and it's free)

reigonal licenses, with huge letters painted on your car "A" for aucklander - not allowed to drive any where else (ever)
("T" for other townies - limited to their towns) "W" for woman, not allowed to drive over 80, "O" for old cunt (anyone over 40), just as a courtesy notice,
"R" for rural driver - basically a permit to drive anywhere.


Wot about 'C' for curry muncher, coon, chinks and cunts in Volvos and Subarus? All shit drivers.

[Akzle]

Wot about 'C' for curry muncher, coon, chinks and cunts in Volvos and Subarus? All shit drivers.

having driven both volvo and subaru in the last month :motu:

[pritch]

Wot about 'C' for curry muncher, coon, chinks and cunts in Volvos and Subarus? All shit drivers.

Interesting statistic in the paper today. The tourists most frequently involved in accidents here are Australians. Apparently there are more of them on the road.
Guess we don't notice them 'cause they don't look much different to most of us, nor do they fly Australian flags. Maybe they should? :whistle:

I don't recall ever driving a Volvo and I haven't driven a Subaru since yesterday. I wouldn't mind driving Guy Martin's Volvo though.
http://www.driving.co.uk/news/guy-martin-on-his-volvo-fastest-car-in-britain/

[swbarnett]

people not passing when i pulled well to the left with good visibilty for them to pass.
I will often not pass (in the car) when slow vehicles do as you did because I can't see in front of the said slow vehicle. I've been forced in to the opposing lane because the slow vehicle had to pull back as the road verge narrowed.

[swbarnett]

I can see where you're coming from. I hate people who overtake and then drive slowly on the corners.
I keep an eye on anyone I pass and make sure that I'm faster than they are. If not, I let them back in front at the first safe opportunity.

[Voltaire]

Wot about 'C' for curry muncher, coon, chinks and cunts in Volvos and Subarus? All shit drivers.

I found the driving in India interesting, once you get used to tractors/trucks coming at you on your side of a divided dual carriageway ( quaint Victorian term) its all good.

I'm bored with my 2.5 Turbo Subaru now gew to Awkland traffic.....the Vespa PX200 is way more fun.:innocent:

[granstar]

My hate is people pulling over into the berm and spraying you with gravel and dust expecting you to pass, also people encouraging you to pass by waving, indicating when the road ahead is poor viz, ...nope!, i'll pass on my terms and that's only when I can see it's safe to do so to the conditions ahead, and behind (always watching for that arse who decide to overtake you as you are about to pull out even though you have indicated well ahead).

When riding after a pass maneuver I generally stick to the left of the road so any others passing have room to safely pull in should anything go pear shaped, it's called courtesy.

[pritch]

I'm bored with my 2.5 Turbo Subaru now gew to Awkland traffic.....the Vespa PX200 is way more fun.:innocent:

Yeah, in town it's hard to beat a scooter for getting about. I see that Mat Oxley, former GP rider, IoM TT winner and lap record holder and moto journo rides a Yamaha 400 scooter.

[Moi]

...the Vespa PX200 is way more fun.:innocent:

I know someone whose only transport is a PX200...

Enrico Piaggio and Corradino D'Ascanio have much to answer for!

[onearmedbandit]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.

I'd argue that most bikes could out corner their riders, ie stick a top level racer on most riders bikes and they would take that bike to limits not seen by a road rider. So therefore rather than being the fault of the design of the machine it would be solely in the riders control, or lack thereof.

[caseye]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.

All bikes are designed to be steered around corners/BENDS.
Rider ability and the speed the bike is tavelling at become deciding factors in which rider and bike combination gets around a particular corner.
Most motorcycle crashes occur at the end of straight bits!
Nit picking? NO.; Theres a difference.
Almost all motorcycle riders wish to get to their destination, to that end they learn how to steer their machines.
Some simply travel so fast that like someone else here on KB they actually don'[t have time to do anything except ,close their eyes and become a passenger on their own aimed missile, never even attempting to get their motorcycle around the bend at the end.
Others misjudge a tightening corner so badly they still effectively ride a straight flight missile.
Yet others crash because they literally have no experience of laying thier motorcycle down a bit further and turning thier throttle a bit further around to bring them around the bend they have entered into too fast, this works best if they have kept an eye on their corners vanishing point, If they even know what that is and have a clue as to which way the corner goes and how tight it becomes.
Options, great things.
Option 1. Don't outride your known skill level. You won't go straight off the end of a straight bit of road when the bend comes.
Option 2. Go to courses to learn how firstly how to safely ride a motorcycle and of course to corner, what to look for and how to actually get into them AND out of them safely.
Theres at least 2.
Have you done either of those?"
I'm still learning about what my bike and I can do, where it can be done and how safe some things are or arnt, I challenge you to do the same.

[jasonu]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.

I thought you said most bike crashed occur in group rides.

[awayatc]

And in dog exercise areas.....

[Moise]

I was out for a ride a few days ago and had 3 cars pull over to let me pass! Maybe I was following a bit close once, but that's still some kind of record.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

[Voltaire]

I'd argue that most bikes could out corner their riders, ie stick a top level racer on most riders bikes and they would take that bike to limits not seen by a road rider. So therefore rather than being the fault of the design of the machine it would be solely in the riders control, or lack thereof.

Was in at Star Auctions a while back looking at bike for a mate and observed that most of the bikes there were large capacity modern bikes.
Bloke pointed out the most were " no other vehicle' crashes. He pondered that riders should put more faith in tyres instead of hitting the brakes.
From my limited experience with classic racing you need to be set up entering the corner with all your braking done, then feed the throttle on asap. ( seems to work on shaft drive BMW's)
Braking mid corner or throttling off unsettles the bike.

[russd7]

And in dog exercise areas.....

well that just cleared something up, i now know why he/she is so against IAMs, its the dog food associated with dog exercise areas

[caspernz]

well that just cleared something up, i now know why he/she is so against IAMs, its the dog food associated with dog exercise areas

Might just be against that "foot in mouth" flavor...

[AllanB]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.

I'm trying to think of a modern bike that will not safely corner at either within the legal speed limit posted or the recommended corner speed posted.

There is the good old NZ anomaly that needs excluding in my above sentence, we have areas of hilly tight corners that are technically still designated open road 100km areas despite the reality being significantly less.

[SVboy]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.

The other people who replied to your comment have been rational and considered in what they said. All I can ask is that you re-read your initial post and reflect on how it reinforces KBs opinion of you.
Yes, a custom chopper with raked forks may be a cornering nightmare,but bikes are designed to corner. Rider error is the reason you are looking for.

[skippa1]

Putting cassina to one side like a pile of sreaming dog shit that shouldnt be trod in,


I am interested at the number of people that you see coming towards you, someone is slowing or indicating they are pulling over in their lane and the person behind them feels entitled to move into your lane.....coming straight at you....so they can get around the slowing vehicle. Disconcerting at 50kmh.......fucking scary at 100kmh

[Akzle]

. Rider error is the reason you are looking for.

what??? that's not an option!

it's either "pressure to keep up", or "things happening too fast to do anything about", but mostly for our dear cassey, it's luck. because the rider is so perfect it needs no training.

[roogazza]

Tell ya what shits me: people who can't maintain road speed,or do 80 in a 100,speed up in pass lanes n slow again after, dirty looks / horn blasts when i pass them.
It seems like if you overtake now you're a maniac ?
Sunday I had a great ride apart from from some asian fuck who blasted his horn in his new Rav cos I passed him. I figured if I stop I'll get locked up, cos it'll end that way.
I had a coffee and cigar instead ! :angry2::mad:

[pritch]

A couple of times in the past I have seen a magazine headline and thought, "This'll be crap." Subsequently though I've been pleasantly surprised. One such was entitled something like "Things you didn't know when you bought a motorcycle." It mentioned how you didn't know that sometimes you'd be accosted by misty eyed old geezers who wanted to chat about the bikes they used to own. That does happen.

More relevantly though it went into detail about how you'd become a raving nutter when driving a car. Riding a bike requires a higher level of situational awareness than driving a car and this doesn't (or shouldn't) switch off when you get behind the wheel. This often leads motorcyclists when driving to give vent to their feelings at the silly/dangerous things they see. Their passengers are probably more concerned at the rant than the driving because they don't notice the latter.

I was actually pleased to read that it's a common thing because I'm certainly guilty.

Nick Ienatch in his "Sport Riding Techniques" talks about single vehicle bike accidents. I can't look it up, I have loaned the book out, but in the USA it's common to see a bend with a skidmark going straight ahead. The rider evidently decides they can't make the corner so they sit the bike up and grab the brakes. In most cases had they made a serious effort they could have made the turn. It's possible that this phenomenon is not unique to the USA? :whistle:

[Moi]

Putting cassina to one side like a pile of sreaming dog shit that shouldnt be trod in,


I am interested at the number of people that you see coming towards you, someone is slowing or indicating they are pulling over in their lane and the person behind them feels entitled to move into your lane.....coming straight at you....so they can get around the slowing vehicle. Disconcerting at 50kmh.......fucking scary at 100kmh

I'd say a daily occurrence... drive anywhere in Auckland and you'll see it... anything from micro-cars to trucks and buses... just too bloody selfish... just too entitled... just so arrogant...

Plus those who turn left from the "middle of the road" - too scared to move over into a bus lane to turn left, even when it's not operating as a bus lane, even though the council has spent quite some money on marking the bus lanes so you know when there's 50 metres to the junction...

[Moi]

Tell ya what shits me: people who can't maintain road speed,or do 80 in a 100,speed up in pass lanes n slow again after, dirty looks / horn blasts when i pass them.
It seems like if you overtake now you're a maniac ?
Sunday I had a great ride apart from from some asian fuck who blasted his horn in his new Rav cos I passed him. I figured if I stop I'll get locked up, cos it'll end that way.
I had a coffee and cigar instead ! :angry2::mad:

There are times when I'm quite happy to do 80 to 90 in the car on the open road - haven't been that way for a while and want to have a "gaze-about" - but I do keep a very close watch on the mirrors and pull over to let others get on with their journey. Nice when a biker overtakes and acknowledges that you've moved over for them...

[roogazza]

There are times when I'm quite happy to do 80 to 90 in the car on the open road - haven't been that way for a while and want to have a "gaze-about" - but I do keep a very close watch on the mirrors and pull over to let others get on with their journey. Nice when a biker overtakes and acknowledges that you've moved over for them...

Yeah bud, always give a thankyou wave if people move over for me. In fact most are like that.
In the Falcooon tho, its harder to get by legally with the dreaded yellow no passing lines everywhere. Again the looks you get cruising by in the car is rarely appreciated by the road chicane with a death grip on the wheel.

[onearmedbandit]

How safely a vehicle can take bends does depend on the vehicle as well as the driver. I have read that most single bike crashes occur on bends so not all bikes are designed to handle bends at high speed either.


If you read my post again I was not only talking about bikes but the difference in the cornering ability of say a car compared to a 4WD to a truck or camper van. All do not have the same cornering ability.


In the post of yours I replied to you only mention bikes and that some are not designed to handle bends at high speeds. You make no mention of comparing cornering ability differences between varied modes of transportation. Seems you can't even understand your own posts, or what you type doesn't match with what you are thinking.

[Swoop]

Tell ya what shits me: people who can't maintain road speed,or do 80 in a 100,speed up in pass lanes n slow again after, dirty looks / horn blasts when i pass them.
It seems like if you overtake now you're a maniac ?

This is expected now.
The years of "social engineering" that the propaganda of "SPEED KILLS!!!!" has been rammed down the public's throats.
Fuckwitted cunt-monkeys lap this mental image up and need a time-out in their safe space since they feel so offended.

Fuckin' cock-wombles...

[5ive]

you are thinking.

You may be confusing logical thoughts, with strongly held opinions.

No amount of common sense replies, or facts, will induce critical thinking in this person...

[neels]

Saw a reasonable amount of idiocy during my fairly limited travels over the holidays, a couple of which could have ended very badly were it not for evasive action by other drivers.

I also dragged the crappy old caravan about the place a bit, and even though I was travelling at the prescribed 90kmh and catching up to other drivers I still took the opportunity to get out of the way wherever possible to let others pass, without committing the previously mentioned crimes of dropping wheels in the gravel or slowing where there is no opportunity to pass. There were a number of times that the tailgating dickhead behind wouldn't pass even when I was completely to the left of the marked lane with the left indicator on, such people get one chance and after that it's fuck them they can stay there.

[swbarnett]

I actually find the speed recomendations on bends a good guide for getting around them safely
and have not come to grief on a bend without them either. Never being under pressure to keep up or impress anyone helps me stay safe too. Maybe its only those that ignore the speed recomendations that need the schooling. Take notice of speed signs and you may not need the schooling either.
Yet another example of your complete lack of riding skill.

Those recommendations are actually for the "worst" vehicle driven by a poor driver.

[swbarnett]

Or maybe they have been put there due to crashes on those bends by people like you who take them faster otherwise why would there be any need for signage? No wonder you need to go to riding school to learn how to go around bends if you ignore the signage.
Considering how many corners have these signs there is no way that every one of them has a sufficient crash history to make this necessary. When these signs were initially erected the speed on them was determined by a ball on a curved track in the rear window of a test car.

Most corners can be quite safely taken quite a bit higher that the "recommended" speed. Under good conditions, with even a reasonably maintained vehicle and a semi-competant driver/rider, those signs can be read (roughly) as miles per hour. Only under poor conditions or for a POS vehicle or incompetant rider/driver do they need to be read in kph.

And for the record, it wouldn't worry me in the slightest if all of those signs disappeared overnight. I make my own assessment of every corner every time I go through it anyway.

[nzspokes]

Or maybe they have been put there due to crashes on those bends by people like you who take them faster otherwise why would there be any need for signage? No wonder you need to go to riding school to learn how to go around bends if you ignore the signage.
The yellow speed advisory signs are just that, an advisory for conditions being at there worst. This is why they are not black.

Further training is required.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[MVnut]

I actually find the speed recomendations on bends a good guide for getting around them safely
and have not come to grief on a bend without them either. Never being under pressure to keep up or impress anyone helps me stay safe too. Maybe its only those that ignore the speed recomendations that need the schooling. Take notice of speed signs and you may not need the schooling either.


In the post of yours I replied to you only mention bikes and that some are not designed to handle bends at high speeds. You make no mention of comparing cornering ability differences between varied modes of transportation. Seems you can't even understand your own posts, or what you type doesn't match with what you are thinking.


Completely agree with the one armed man.

Let's take an example, a well known corner for those who ride to Akaroa. The 55k posted turn taken as a left hander outside the Blue Duck, ie heading back toward Tai Tapu from Little River. This as you know has a 55k advisory sign.....in your opinions (and please disregard any legal speed limit) what would be the highest speed to negotiate this left hander? Have some margin for error here if you wish. ..if it were a one lane racetrack, what do you think a top racer on a well prepared 1000cc production bike on road tyres could take the turn at?

My bet is that if you both answer, the 'numbers' will be very different.

I am not suggesting you should do this in practice, just your thoughts please ( so plod won't come knocking)

[pritch]

Only under poor conditions or for a POS vehicle or incompetant rider/driver do they need to be read in kph.


Well, we know where Cassina fits.

There is an exception that springs to mind, the really slow ones indicating 25kph or less do tend to mean what they say.

I have seen comments on KB by people claiming to do double the posted speed, I don't think I could actually do that, and if I did try I'd be much too busy to look at the bloody speedo. Your suggestion of reading them as mph is conservative and safely achievable by any competent rider. After taking into account the above-noted proviso of course.

[swbarnett]

So you guys who ignore those advisory signs really do so at your own peril.
No, we don't. We trust in our own judgement as to curvature and conditions. You're correct that if gravel etc. is present your corner speed should be lower. It's all a matter of keeping your eyes open and you brain on the job.

[swbarnett]

There was an article in the AA magazine where a tow truck driver was interviewed and he said most single motorcycle crashes were on bends.
This I would definitely believe.


... are on the wrong bike for the bend they are negotiating.
Not really any such thing as the wrong bike for the bend. Any bike can get around any bend, just a matter of riding to the conditions. A rider has to remember that one of the "conditions" is the bike itself.

[MVnut]

Completely agree with the one armed man.

Let's take an example, a well known corner for those who ride to Akaroa. The 55k posted turn taken as a left hander outside the Blue Duck, ie heading back toward Tai Tapu from Little River. This as you know has a 55k advisory sign.....in your opinions (and please disregard any legal speed limit) what would be the highest speed to negotiate this left hander? Have some margin for error here if you wish. ..if it were a one lane racetrack, what do you think a top racer on a well prepared 1000cc production bike on road tyres could take the turn at?

My bet is that if you both answer, the 'numbers' will be very different.

I am not suggesting you should do this in practice, just your thoughts please ( so plod won't come knocking)

What !!! no response from anybody ???:gob:.......should I suggest some 'numbers' ?

[TheDemonLord]

What !!! no response from anybody ???:gob:.......should I suggest some 'numbers' ?

Okay I'll bite (bearing in mind I've never ridden that road - so all figures are pulled from rectum)

Rossi, perfect day, MotoGP bike: 150 kph?

Good rider, good conditions, good bike etc.: I'll go with double plus 10 - so 120 kph for that corner

Average rider, average conditions, average bike: I'll go with 70-80 kph (this is what I would take most 55 indicated corners at)

Cassina: I'll go with 30 kph... At a stretch.

[caseye]

Okay I'll bite (bearing in mind I've never ridden that road - so all figures are pulled from rectum)

Rossi, perfect day, MotoGP bike: 150 kph?

Good rider, good conditions, good bike etc.: I'll go with double plus 10 - so 120 kph for that corner

Average rider, average conditions, average bike: I'll go with 70-80 kph (this is what I would take most 55 indicated corners at)

Cassina: I'll go with 30 kph... At a stretch.

Na! Yeah, Too Hi, they're much better than that at fucking off following traffic.

[KawasakiKid]

Okay I'll bite (bearing in mind I've never ridden that road - so all figures are pulled from rectum)

Rossi, perfect day, MotoGP bike: 150 kph?

A bit faster maybe

[onearmedbandit]

Completely agree with the one armed man.

Let's take an example, a well known corner for those who ride to Akaroa. The 55k posted turn taken as a left hander outside the Blue Duck, ie heading back toward Tai Tapu from Little River. This as you know has a 55k advisory sign.....in your opinions (and please disregard any legal speed limit) what would be the highest speed to negotiate this left hander? Have some margin for error here if you wish. ..if it were a one lane racetrack, what do you think a top racer on a well prepared 1000cc production bike on road tyres could take the turn at?

My bet is that if you both answer, the 'numbers' will be very different.

I am not suggesting you should do this in practice, just your thoughts please ( so plod won't come knocking)


What !!! no response from anybody ???:gob:.......should I suggest some 'numbers' ?

Whoops missed this. That particular corner I know well, I can comfortably take it at around 135km/h (indicated apex speed), I guess a top racer on a sorted production bike on road tyres could probably do another 30+/-km/h.

[TheDemonLord]

A bit faster maybe

Well, I did say figures were pulled from my arse!

[nzspokes]

There was an article in the AA magazine where a tow truck driver was interviewed and he said most single motorcycle crashes were on bends.

Well fuck me, was the name on the side of his truck "Captain Obvious towing"?

[onearmedbandit]

Some muppets on this site will no doubt try and achieve the above 55km/hr speeds stated by those in the above posts and if there are any reported crashes on that bend in the next few weeks we will know they were readers of the above posts.

Case closed.

[onearmedbandit]

Well fuck me, was the name on the side of his truck "Captain Obvious towing"?

Hahaha, yup I'm doubting there's not too many call out for single motorcycle crashes on the straights.

[MVnut]

Whoops missed this. That particular corner I know well, I can comfortably take it at around 135km/h (indicated apex speed), I guess a top racer on a sorted production bike on road tyres could probably do another 30+/-km/h.

Thanks OAB

Firstly, apologies....I have a friend staying and I posted under his login by mistake. Now rectified.

Anyway, my point was that the posted advisory limits can be way off the mark for 'safe' speed in a turn. The Blue Duck corner is indeed easy at 135 as OAB states. In fact 175 is comfortable on the right bike.

An average rider may be shitting bricks at 120.....Rossi may top 200.....Cassina may get off and push ??

We each ride our own road, best thing is forever gathering knowledge and skill. One man's limit is another man's beginning. Ride safe

[MVnut]

Some muppets on this site will no doubt try and achieve the above 55km/hr speeds stated by those in the above posts and if there are any reported crashes on that bend in the next few weeks we will know they were readers of the above posts.

I did state this was not a test to see how fast people can go. I would never suggest that. So don't think of accusing me or others in that regard. The road is not a racetrack, but most of us go faster than the law allows on occasion. Use common sense please (probably still some available at the corner dairy)

[Akzle]

Some muppets on this site will no doubt try and achieve the above 55km/hr speeds stated by those in the above posts and if there are any reported crashes on that bend in the next few weeks we will know they were readers of the above posts.

:killingme
... "achieve"


jesus fucking christ on a tricycle.[/LIST]

[Akzle]

Some muppets on this site will no doubt try and achieve the above 55km/hr speeds stated by those in the above posts and if there are any reported crashes on that bend in the next few weeks we will know they were readers of the above posts.

:killingme

... "achieve"


jesus fucking christ on a tricycle.

[onearmedbandit]

Thanks OAB

Firstly, apologies....I have a friend staying and I posted under his login by mistake. Now rectified.

Anyway, my point was that the posted advisory limits can be way off the mark for 'safe' speed in a turn. The Blue Duck corner is indeed easy at 135 as OAB states. In fact 175 is comfortable on the right bike.

An average rider may be shitting bricks at 120.....Rossi may top 200.....Cassina may get off and push ??

We each ride our own road, best thing is forever gathering knowledge and skill. One man's limit is another man's beginning. Ride safe

175 you say? I'll head out shortly and see if I can achieve that. Nah the fastest I recall hitting through there was a nudge over 150, fast enough for me.

[MVnut]

175 you say? I'll head out shortly and see if I can achieve that. Nah the fastest I recall hitting through there was a nudge over 150, fast enough for me.

Well I have no hesitation saying you are one of the best riders I've ridden with, and I have no doubt you could corner every bit as fast as me. It's all about what limits we set ourselves at any given time. My point was really about the absurd comments made by Cassina, suggesting the advisory limits should be adhered to for all our safety.

Cassina is not helping anyone with his/her comments. Perhaps motorcycling is too dangerous after all. Remember, motorcycles are inherently dangerous, that is part of the appeal. Not buckled inside a cage away from the world.

[neels]

On that particular corner I'm happy with button off a bit from 100ish on the straight, just to have a wee look for tourists or sunday drivers ambling out of the car park, then carry on at more or less the legal limit.

Then again, I ride like a nana, and I know my bike can go round corners much faster than me as it has been demonstrated by much better riders than me several times.

[onearmedbandit]

Well I have no hesitation saying you are one of the best riders I've ridden with, and I have no doubt you could corner every bit as fast as me. It's all about what limits we set ourselves at any given time. My point was really about the absurd comments made by Cassina, suggesting the advisory limits should be adhered to for all our safety.

Cassina is not helping anyone with his/her comments. Perhaps motorcycling is too dangerous after all. Remember, motorcycles are inherently dangerous, that is part of the appeal. Not buckled inside a cage away from the world.

Big praise coming from you thanks mate. But I'll leave the fast stuff to you guys with much more ability and experience than me.

We shouldn't really respond to cassina, it only encourages him/her. But a lot of its comments just can't go unchecked.

[SVboy]

Funny corner that. Heading to Akaroa, going right, I struggle to get to 120-125kph. However coming back into the left hander I am quite comfortable at 130-135. The issue can be people coming out of the Cafe or Gebbies. Cassina, if you went around that corner at 55kph, you would be impeding elderly tourists in camper vans!

[MVnut]

Big praise coming from you thanks mate. But I'll leave the fast stuff to you guys with much more ability and experience than me.

We shouldn't really respond to cassina, it only encourages him/her. But a lot of its comments just can't go unchecked.


:laugh: ....anyway I'm back from the dead and back in NZ for another month or two. We must catch up for a beer............Beer, I'll just check with the medics, mine may have to be orange juice, but will have beer in the fridge for you

[onearmedbandit]

:laugh: ....anyway I'm back from the dead and back in NZ for another month or two. We must catch up for a beer............Beer, I'll just check with the medics, mine may have to be orange juice, but will have beer in the fridge for you

Definitely, let me know when works for you mate. Be keen to catch up.

[KawasakiKid]

I bet you ride under pressure to keep up too when you are on a group ride

Why do you insist these limits would be correct.

[neels]

For Christ sake sport I gave an example of a poster on here who came to grief by not taking notice of the signs. The greater the speed you get up to above whats on the sign the greater the chance you will come to grief otherwise they would either have no signs or put a much higher speed rating on them than they do. I bet you ride under pressure to keep up too when you are on a group ride.
And there it is.....

[MVnut]

For some reason, my laptop keeps logging me out and as my friend is also logged in, I post under his name. Will watch that in future.

Anyway back on topic. No Cassina I never stress out about keeping up when riding with others. Why would you even suggest that, you don't know me.

Having said that I have witnessed a LOT of shit riding in larger group rides.....mainly rides organised via Kiwibiker.

[Murray]

Okay I'll bite (bearing in mind I've never ridden that road - so all figures are pulled from rectum)

Rossi, perfect day, MotoGP bike: 150 kph?



Could depend on whether hes leading or under pressure trying to keep up with his mates (other riders maybe don't think Marquez is a mate)

[FJRider]

The yellow speed advisory signs are just that, an advisory for conditions being at there worst. This is why they are not black.



Although officially only advisory ... crashing on a bend at speeds over that "Advisory" limit will go against you if the matter gets to court. As will previous
actions and speeds by you that seen and reported by witnesses to police.

There are strict control procedures laid down to set the "Advised" speed limit on bends. Worst case scenarios are nothing to do with it.

Google it and learn ...

By the way .. speed limit signs are red and white ... with advisory ones yellow. The numerals on both are black. I suggest you need training on a few things yourself.

[WristTwister]

The [sic: more you exceed the advised speed] on the sign, the greater the chance you will come to grief otherwise they would either have no signs or put a much higher speed rating on them than they do.

That's kinda true, but there is a bigger chance of a rider accident when they're going too fast into a 25/35 corner than a 55/65 corner. Bikes can usually take most corners faster than cars because they're narrower. The rider's skill (or lack of it) can make a difference as well. A bigger threat can be the skill of cagers who go wide on narrow bends.

[jafagsx250]

Well, we know where Cassina fits.

There is an exception that springs to mind, the really slow ones indicating 25kph or less do tend to mean what they say.

I have seen comments on KB by people claiming to do double the posted speed, I don't think I could actually do that, and if I did try I'd be much too busy to look at the bloody speedo. Your suggestion of reading them as mph is conservative and safely achievable by any competent rider. After taking into account the above-noted proviso of course.

Well I can usually go up state highway 16 to wellsford at 120 around the 55 65 km per hour corners.

I feel that is a safe speed if it's a good sunny day with good road conditions. There's a 35 corner that I slow down to to around 60 or so. But coming back to Auckland there I'd usually gravel on the road so I slow right down.

Is this silly speeds. Probably. But me being silly in the bends has gotten me into less trouble than other people's silliness in the city. Far too many people are not terribly aware of what's going on. And far too many people on phones.

Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

[swbarnett]

The greater the speed you get up to above whats on the sign the greater the chance you will come to grief otherwise they would either have no signs or put a much higher speed rating on them than they do.
Assuming the above is true (big assumption) - the same risk assessment could be applied to life as a whole. Fuck, life is dangerous so why do we bother? Let's all just rid ourselves of it. Afterall, you can't have an accident if you're dead - problem solved!


You really do have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Even I'm on the verge of throwing my hands in the air and admitting defeat (but not quite yet). That's quite an acheivement. You're the first halfwit on here to get me to that point in the decade that I've been on this site.

[swbarnett]

There are strict control procedures laid down to set the "Advised" speed limit on bends. Worst case scenarios are nothing to do with it.
The online road code defines "Curve Warning Signs" as showing a "safe and comfortable speed to drive at around the curve". For this to be true for every vehicle/driver combination that takes a given bend then this speed by definition must be "safe and comfortable" for the worst vehicle/driver/conditions combination that will ever arise. If they are set contrary to that then they are no more useful than tits on a bull.

[Akzle]

And there it is.....

it's hard to play any other tune when your piano only has two strings...

[Akzle]

. You're the first halfwit on here to get me to that point in the decade that I've been on this site.

you credit him with a whole half?

[FJRider]

The online road code defines "Curve Warning Signs" as showing a "safe and comfortable speed to drive at around the curve". For this to be true for every vehicle/driver combination that takes a given bend then this speed by definition must be "safe and comfortable" for the worst vehicle/driver/conditions combination that will ever arise. If they are set contrary to that then they are no more useful than tits on a bull.

Is that your best guess too ... ?????

Interesting reading here ... you might learn something.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Glen_Koorey/publication/29487303_Curve_Advisory_Speeds_in_New_Zealand/links/5531076c0cf20ea0a07011f0.pdf?origin=publication_li st

[Akzle]

as taught in riding schools.

and how the fuck would you know this having never ever been to one? your WOF guy tell ya?

[swbarnett]

Is that your best guess too ... ?????
Not really a guess, just applied logic. Irrespective of how the speed was arrived at or what TPTB intend, if one speed is said to be "safe and comfortable" for all vehicle/driver combinations then surely it must be "safe and comfortable" for the worst vehicle/driver combination? Or is the road code vastly over simplifying the situation?


Interesting reading here ... you might learn something.
Thanks. I'll have a read when I get the chance.

[5ive]

and how the fuck would you know this having never ever been to one? your WOF guy tell ya?

It's true though, I once saw a facebook post about a rider who went to a riding school, and he said that you should hug the center line on left and right hand corners so that you can see cars coming the other way betterer.

[Akzle]

It's true though, I once saw a facebook post about a rider who went to a riding school, and he said that you should hug the center line on left and right hand corners so that you can see cars coming the other way betterer.

what the fuck would you know? are you a wof guy?

[5ive]

I could call you a halfwit too for not taking notice of my advise. The question I have for you is why do you waste your time responding to my posts if you dont like them?

*advice

I don't think anyone really hates your posts (and Katman loves them, he can piggyback off them for attention), they just don't agree with the content, which is usually wrong.

[5ive]

what the fuck would you know? are you a wof guy?

No, I know a wof guy though, he tells me everything I need to know so I don't have to think.

[5ive]

They are still wasting their time though as I am set in my way in the same way they are.

I know, it's like watching a drug addict relapsing, despite all of the attempts at help.

[MVnut]

Centreline hugging not such a great idea....pic of a friend.....but what about that campervan :facepalm:

[MVnut]

Another on the Ackers mountain, some cunt slightly over the centreline. It's all about being vigilant

[TheDemonLord]

I could call you a halfwit too for not taking notice of my advise.

I'm pretty sure that one of the qualifiers for being a halfwit is following your advice.

The funniest part is however, parts of most of your posts have a very teeny tiny nugget of truth to them - but you wrap it up in so much Bullshit that it makes it impossible for anyone to swallow.

[Akzle]

Another on the Ackers mountain, some cunt slightly over the centreline. It's all about being vigilant

a) there's no problem with that.
b) "filmed on a closed road under supervision"

[neels]

Another on the Ackers mountain, some cunt slightly over the centreline. It's all about being vigilant

The problem in that photo is obvious, the driver of the blue car is clearly under pressure to try and keep up with the black car.

[5ive]

The problem in that photo is obvious, the driver of the blue car is clearly under pressure to try and keep up with the black car.

...and the photo is being taken by a motorcycle rider who went to cassina's centre-line hugging, riding school.

[FJRider]

Not really a guess, just applied logic. Irrespective of how the speed was arrived at or what TPTB intend, if one speed is said to be "safe and comfortable" for all vehicle/driver combinations then surely it must be "safe and comfortable" for the worst vehicle/driver combination?

Beware ... Cassina uses "applied logic" in her posts ... and probably works for her. Sometimes ...

There is in this day and age ... no room for best guess/estimate when setting advisory limits in corners ... get it wrong and the authority setting them could be held liable.

Safe and comfortable is always normal conditions (in the dry) for all normal vehicles .... The operators of any vehicles are responsible to take the bend safely.

The required safe speed (for motorbikes)on corners corners decreases in amount over the advised limit ... as the advised limit decreases. ie: 20 km/hr over on an advised 95 km/hr corner should not be much of an issue for an experienced rider. But try 20 km/hr over on an advised 15 km/hr corner ... and there will be problems.
However ... not all corners are rated by the same person ... and could be rated differently on similar corners elsewhere. Plus corners may be improved without any change in the rating.


Or is the road code vastly over simplifying the situation?

It always did. The Road code is not worded as written legislation. In fact it should NOT be counted as legislation.

At no time should any posted (or advised) speed limit be held/assumed to be safe in all road situations and conditions.

[swbarnett]

I could call you a halfwit too for not taking notice of my advise. The question I have for you is why do you waste your time responding to my posts if you dont like them?
I've already answered that many times. I don't like to leave bad advice unchallenged for fear of it getting new riders into grief. It is, however, getting to a point where the danger of that is greatly diminished due to the sheer volume of obvious incompetance you keep spouting.

[swbarnett]

Safe and comfortable is always normal conditions (in the dry) for all normal vehicles
The study you referred me to refers to the advisory speeds as “the maximum speed at which a curve may be comfortably negotiated under good road and weather conditions”. So what you're saying is that the maximum comfortable speed is hte same for a large truck with trailer and a motorcycle? This is blatantly not true.


The required safe speed (for motorbikes)on corners corners decreases in amount over the advised limit ... as the advised limit decreases. ie: 20 km/hr over on an advised 95 km/hr corner should not be much of an issue for an experienced rider. But try 20 km/hr over on an advised 15 km/hr corner ... and there will be problems.
Exactly, any increase over the advisory is always proportional.


However ... not all corners are rated by the same person ... and could be rated differently on similar corners elsewhere. Plus corners may be improved without any change in the rating.
Which is why we must always judge the corner ourselves instead of taking the advisory speeds as gospel.

[KawasakiKid]

There is a video of a guy on the Akaroa road doing a Rossi turn and while his bike was not on the centre line his head was close to it and almost got taken out by another rider completely over the centre going the other way.

So what is the campervan doing wrong? :nono:

[TheDemonLord]

The "truth" I speak I try and back up with something to support it

No, you take bits that have an element of truth and attempt to parrot them, but in doing so, you remove the context and the nuance.


for example the rider on here who went around a bend with a speed advisory on it over the posted speed and came to grief on gravel or it could have been a car over the centre line.

Both those examples are predicated on the unproven notion that if they went round the corner at the advised speed they would be fine.

This is the removing of context and nuance that I mentioned.


Its no loss to me should you or any of your mates on here choose to ignore such advice.

We ignore it because we like to stay rubber side down.

[swbarnett]

... "centre line hugging" to give them "time" to get out of the way of a car over the centre line as they will be able to see it before the car sees them as taught in riding schools.
This whole "centre line hugging" needs to be clarified.

According to "what is taught in riding schools" that I've seen, entering a left-hander you should be to the right of your lane unless existing traffic precludes this. If no traffic is present through the entire curve you may elect to stay in this lane position with no dramas. If traffic is seen around the corner then you need to switch to the left of the lane and therefore exist the curve on the left while maintaing both forward visibility and your safety bubble.

At no time have I seen anyone advocating staying in the righ lane position irrespective of oncoming traffic.

[swbarnett]

They are still wasting their time though as I am set in my way in the same way they are.
The thing is that "we" are not as set in our ways as you think. If we were we would not be so willing to admit to having things still to learn.

[5ive]

I am getting new people agreeing with me too over the danger of centre line hugging which is taught in riding schools. I guess if you have been riding school taught you will not like that.

Must be true then, seven out of five people agree that opinions beat facts every time.

[swbarnett]

The "truth" I speak
"Truth" is the exclusive purview of the religious zealot. The rest of us deal in "what we know now that we may find needs adjusting in the future".

[KawasakiKid]

a) there's no problem with that.
b) "filmed on a closed road under supervision"


Pic taken during this event. The McLaren F1 also crashed near Queenstown on the Glenorchy Rd

http://cars.mclaren.com/home/events/lifestyle-and-heritage/epic-new-zealand-2016.html

[5ive]

This whole "centre line hugging" needs to be clarified.

According to "what is taught in riding schools" that I've seen, entering a left-hander you should be to the right of your lane unless existing traffic precludes this. If no traffic is present through the entire curve you may elect to stay in this lane position with no dramas. If traffic is seen around the corner then you need to switch to the left of the lane and therefore exist the curve on the left while maintaing both forward visibility and your safety bubble.

At no time have I seen anyone advocating staying in the righ lane position irrespective of oncoming traffic.

I think you may be wasting your time with the explanation, cassina is unable/unwilling to learn new concepts.

Probably believes that at 'riding school', you get taught to hug the centre line around right handers as well.

[KawasakiKid]

And the campervan has a steel flap open at right angles. About 60cm long, very dangerous

[FJRider]

The study you referred me to refers to the advisory speeds as “the maximum speed at which a curve may be comfortably negotiated under good road and weather conditions”. So what you're saying is that the maximum comfortable speed is hte same for a large truck with trailer and a motorcycle? This is blatantly not true.


Exactly, any increase over the advisory is always proportional.


Which is why we must always judge the corner ourselves instead of taking the advisory speeds as gospel.

Not all truck drivers or motorcyclists are experienced in all conditions. Possession of ANY class license does not give you automatic experience. But the license DOES give you responsibility. If their is an issue with advisory speed limits between vehicle classes ... why do so many motorcyclists crash on corners ... if they should/can go faster around corners.

What is your experience driving large truck and trailer units .. ???

[TheDemonLord]

This whole "centre line hugging" needs to be clarified.

Cassina, Please take note of this line.

This is the difference between good advice, and parrotting other people's advice whilst leaving out some very VERY important parts.

You think you are doing the former, but you are doing the latter.

[Akzle]

Cassina, Please take note of this line.

You are a fuckwit and should kill youself you fucken jew cunt.

:clap:
... must spread

[Berries]

Not all truck drivers or motorcyclists are experienced in all conditions. Possession of ANY class license does not give you automatic experience. But the license DOES give you responsibility. If their is an issue with advisory speed limits between vehicle classes ... why do so many motorcyclists crash on corners ... if they should/can go faster around corners.
It should be obvious but more bikes crash on corners than on straights because they have to deviate from their path and adjust their speed and a whole multitude of other factors that don't occur on a straight when moving at a constant speed. If your speed is not adjusted correctly then you will run out of room and crash. This won't happen on a straight.

Believe it or not more cars crash on curves than on straights and it is the same for trucks if we are looking at single vehicle crashes.

And I wouldn't get too worked up about some kind of magic in setting the advisory speed. Nine times out of ten you can guess what speed it should be on gut instinct and be correct.

[swbarnett]

Not all truck drivers or motorcyclists are experienced in all conditions. Possession of ANY class license does not give you automatic experience. But the license DOES give you responsibility.
Totatlly agree. It seems you think I've said otherwise? If I did then I totally messed up my wording.


If their is an issue with advisory speed limits between vehicle classes ... why do so many motorcyclists crash on corners ... if they should/can go faster around corners.
Because they were going too fast for the conditions. Be that above or below the advisory speed.


What is your experience driving large truck and trailer units .. ???
Absolutely none. Please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that your average motorcycle can corner faster than your average large truck. This has ceratinly been my limited anecdotal experience.

[FJRider]

It should be obvious but more bikes crash on corners than on straights because they have to deviate from their path and adjust their speed and a whole multitude of other factors that don't occur on a straight when moving at a constant speed. If your speed is not adjusted correctly then you will run out of room and crash. This won't happen on a straight
Believe it or not more cars crash on curves than on straights and it is the same for trucks if we are looking at single vehicle crashes.

If such deviation from a straight path is known to need (in some cases) a reduction in speed ... why didn't they ?? Those that choose to ignore posted advice do so at their peril. The number of crashes by both motorcycles and cars ... suggest their own limits have been exceeded.

Remember tat the limits on speed advisory signs only increase in 10 km/hr increments ... that alone may be some way to being under the possible max speed advised for a corner. As the max advisory limit is 95 km/hr and trucks (and those with trailers) ... are limited to 90 km/h ... as are cars so limited and vehicles so restricted would not fall into the normal class of vehicle for which the advisory limits were set for.
The 85 km/hr limited corners or less might be more pertinent to be adhered to more closely with the different

It would also be safe to assume that vehicles towing trailers might not be as safe at over speed limits set for corners .... than the unfettered lighter vehicles on our roads.

The ambiguity of legislation as it is written may confuse some ... such is legislation. But the responsibility of getting around corners safely ... without endangering other vehicles ... is the responsibility of the vehicle operator. Some riders seem to believe taking a corner with the wheels just to the left of the center line is perfectly acceptable (as are racing lines over the entire road). Time saved cornering ... is not added to your life span if you get it badly wrong in a corner ...


And I wouldn't get too worked up about some kind of magic in setting the advisory speed. Nine times out of ten you can guess what speed it should be on gut instinct and be correct.

It's that one time(out of the ten) I always try to consider ... but other factors like a changed/unexpected road surface (and things on that surface) matter in what actual speed was safe. Do not judge all corners just by their advisory sign prior to their entry.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

[TheDemonLord]

I have never said people who follow recomeneded speeds would be fine if they do but the chances are they would be less fine the more they exceed the recommendation and not the other way around. I think you are just being semantical.

Based upon what?

It's based upon the assumption that following the rules is equal to safe (or more Safe).

Anyone with any shred of adult reasoning can see this is fundamentally flawed, even your most ardent critics on this site can acknowledge what you are trying to say, but without clarification or nuance, it comes out as retarded drivel.

[FJRider]

Absolutely none. Please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming that your average motorcycle can corner faster than your average large truck. This has ceratinly been my limited anecdotal experience.

Trucks are restricted by legislation to 90 km/hr. Not all the roads in NZ are able to allow any (or all) truck trailer units anywhere the allowable legal limit in speed. Less so in corners ... so the "All vehicles" bit you saw/read might not actually be including trucks (with or without trailers).

As an aside ... some modern truck units can keep a surprising amount of speed through corners ... depending on their load, more what it is rather than weight.

[TheDemonLord]

If you think the consequences of centre line hugging are not clear you can not be very bright.

Can you please point to me where I said that Centre line hugging was both safe and acceptable?


You ride the centre line at your peril. Maybe the photo that the other poster put on of a centre line hugger almost hitting a flap that had popped open on a campervan may educate you.

Can you please point to me where I said that Centre line hugging was both safe and acceptable?

The point here - is that there is a time when riding closer to the Centre line, to give a better sight picture around a bend thus enabling the rider to have the maximum view range to see, identify and if needed, react to hazards, is considered good road craft.

Hugging the Centreline at all times = bad road craft.

The problem is that you are failing to differentiate, qualify and nuance your position - thus you end up giving batshit crazy advise.

[MVnut]

If such deviation from a straight path is known to need (in some cases) a reduction in speed ... why didn't they ?? Those that choose to ignore posted advice do so at their peril. The number of crashes by both motorcycles and cars ... suggest their own limits have been exceeded.

Remember tat the limits on speed advisory signs only increase in 10 km/hr increments ... that alone may be some way to being under the possible max speed advised for a corner. As the max advisory limit is 95 km/hr and trucks (and those with trailers) ... are limited to 90 km/h ... as are cars so limited and vehicles so restricted would not fall into the normal class of vehicle for which the advisory limits were set for.
The 85 km/hr limited corners or less might be more pertinent to be adhered to more closely with the different

It would also be safe to assume that vehicles towing trailers might not be as safe at over speed limits set for corners .... than the unfettered lighter vehicles on our roads.

The ambiguity of legislation as it is written may confuse some ... such is legislation. But the responsibility of getting around corners safely ... without endangering other vehicles ... is the responsibility of the vehicle operator. Some riders seem to believe taking a corner with the wheels just to the left of the center line is perfectly acceptable (as are racing lines over the entire road). Time saved cornering ... is not added to your life span if you get it badly wrong in a corner ...



It's that one time(out of the ten) I always try to consider ... but other factors like a changed/unexpected road surface (and things on that surface) matter in what actual speed was safe. Do not judge all corners just by their advisory sign prior to their entry.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.

FFS this is a motorcycle forum. If people can't figure out that truck and trailer units, or cars towing etc etc may need to go a bit slower and/or need a bit more room .....common sense.... they should be taken out and shot

[5ive]

riding closer to the Centre line

Cassina is referring to the 'centreline hugging' that they teach at riding school, which is different.

[FJRider]

It's based upon the assumption that following the rules is equal to safe (or more Safe).

Not always safe .... but it's the way to bet you might live longer ... And safer than assuming there is nobody else coming towards you, that are not "following the rules" either.


Anyone with any shred of adult reasoning can see this is fundamentally flawed, even your most ardent critics on this site can acknowledge what you are trying to say, but without clarification or nuance, it comes out as retarded drivel.

As do many of yours.This one included. Pot calling the kettle ... I think. Especially if you say that following the rules is fundamentally flawed.

[jasonu]

Another on the Ackers mountain, some cunt slightly over the centreline. It's all about being vigilant

Looks like a Top Gear episode.

[old slider]

Centreline hugging not such a great idea....pic of a friend.....but what about that campervan :facepalm:

The least he could have done is close that opened side door on the camper as it went past, lol (sorry its been noted)

Reason for edit, Kawasaki kid spotted it, I hadn't got that far through the thread when I posted.

[TheDemonLord]

Not always safe .... but it's the way to bet you might live longer ... And safer than assuming there is nobody else coming towards you, that are not "following the rules" either.

As do many of yours.This one included. Pot calling the kettle ... I think. Especially if you say that following the rules is fundamentally flawed.

I'm sure they (and you) do, But then, I've only ever proclaimed to be an opinion with an asshole, who loves to argue.

To address that actual serious point though - there are 2 counter-points

The first is found in the NZ legislation, I CBF looking up the exact section - but paraphrased it says:

"If it's to avoid Death or serious injury, then throw all these rules out the window"

The second counter-point is a follow on from that - which is following the rules at all times, with no regard for situation, circumstance or scenario is the fundamental flaw I speak of. Proclaiming a rigid following of rules is any guarantee of safety is wrong.

Following the rules for the majority of situations, where the circumstances warrant it = good advice (this is the Kernel of truth in Cassina's post)
Following the rules absolutely with a disregard of circumstance = bad advice (which seems to be what Cassina is espousing)

[TheDemonLord]

Cassina is referring to the 'centreline hugging' that they teach at riding school, which is different.

Centreline hugging or riding in the right hand wheel track, I got told about the latter from a couple of instructors - reasons given are better visibility for other road users and better grip as gravel/crap/stuff tends to get brushed away from this bit of road by other road users tyre tread.

Those same instructors though did caution riding too close to the centreline - citing reasons such as the Camper van picture.

[5ive]

Centreline hugging or riding in the right hand wheel track, I got told about the latter from a couple of instructors - reasons given are better visibility for other road users and better grip as gravel/crap/stuff tends to get brushed away from this bit of road by other road users tyre tread.

Those same instructors though did caution riding too close to the centreline - citing reasons such as the Camper van picture.

I don't think cassina has explained it properly for us yet, we don't know and are not safe, but what I do know so far is

it's not a problem when you are hugging the left hand white line at all times and going slower than the speed limit as much as possible to be safe and not on a group ride without any pressure to keep up and watching out for teleporting dogs that instantly appear and there is nothing you can do to avoid hitting them and having an accident and a facebook post backs that up and so has been said at other times in other threads and backed up by other people who have not posted but it helps those who are viewing the thread but don't post.

[swbarnett]

so the "All vehicles" bit you saw/read might not actually be including trucks (with or without trailers).
Good point. There are often subtelties that aren't (and often can't be) communicated on the signs.
Admittedly the "all vehicles" bit was an assumption on my part due to the lack of anything to the contrary.

[Gremlin]

This whole "centre line hugging" needs to be clarified.

According to "what is taught in riding schools" that I've seen, entering a left-hander you should be to the right of your lane unless existing traffic precludes this. If no traffic is present through the entire curve you may elect to stay in this lane position with no dramas. If traffic is seen around the corner then you need to switch to the left of the lane and therefore exist the curve on the left while maintaing both forward visibility and your safety bubble.

At no time have I seen anyone advocating staying in the righ lane position irrespective of oncoming traffic.
This reduces what needs to be said in answering cassina

Centreline hugging or riding in the right hand wheel track, I got told about the latter from a couple of instructors - reasons given are better visibility for other road users and better grip as gravel/crap/stuff tends to get brushed away from this bit of road by other road users tyre tread.

Those same instructors though did caution riding too close to the centreline - citing reasons such as the Camper van picture.
This helps too.

Quite simply, in roadcraft terms, there is very little to be followed by rote (road rules obviously have to be followed so let's ignore that element). Namely, it is a set of principles in a system that you apply in a flexible approach to every situation.

Your position on the road is dictated by your Safety, your Stability and your View (SSV) and in that order of priority.
Safety: Safety is your number one priority. Oncoming vehicles? Sacrifice position for safety.
Stability: Gravel/crap on the road? Road broken up? Don't position yourself there.
View: Having satisfied your safety and stability, you position yourself to maximise your view. This is mostly where people think it's a hard rule of left on right handers and vice versa or extreme positioning... forgetting the two points above. This is mostly relevant in rural areas given the higher speeds. Urban areas with a 50kph limit, you're mostly positioning to see, to be seen etc.

[KawasakiKid]

Cassina, it is good you are not in Italy. You would spend so much time reading the road signs you would get no riding done (maybe a good thing)

[KawasakiKid]

This is my personal favourite, it means "Half a Death Star ahead"

[TheDemonLord]

There is only one time i would consider it safe to hug the centre line and that would be in preparation to do an overtake. Is that the particular time you are thinking of and if not when exactly? The UK riding school videos i saw had them riding about 80% of the time on the centre line. It does give you sometime to swerve if someone pulls out of a driveway though but if there is a lot of traffic coming the other way there would be a greater chance if being hit by it. There was a warning on a NZ FB page today that on one particular road a lot of traffic was hugging the centre line and that motorcyclists should stay away from the centre line if going the other way on that road. Staying away from the centre line unless preparing to pass is the rule I will ride by and have ridden by.

Okay - go read Gremlins post.

Notice how he articulates the points giving a reasoned and nuanced view, even acknowledging that people misapply and misinterpret good advice.

Now, compare his post to yours.

The comparison should hopefully show why people get so frustrated with you.

[Katman]

...nuance your position....


....nuanced view....


....or nuance.....

Have you learnt a new word?

[nzspokes]

Okay - go read Gremlins post.

Notice how he articulates the points giving a reasoned and nuanced view, even acknowledging that people misapply and misinterpret good advice.

Now, compare his post to yours.

The comparison should hopefully show why people get so frustrated with you.

Thankfully Gremlin described SSV far betterer than I could, but yeah. What he said.

[TheDemonLord]

Have you learnt a new word?

Are you so desperate to score points that you are complaining about using the correct word to describe something?

[TheDemonLord]

I have read on here many times and like i said have seen UK riding school videos that encourage centre line hugging. He appears to say schools here teach no such thing as the correct way to ride being on the centre line and that its up to the rider to chose their line depending on conditions. Thats the way I have always ridden anyway.

Okay, I'll assume that is indeed how you ride (I've never seen you ride) - but what you describe vs what Gremlin describes are totally different.

I'm trying to be as charitable as I can be here, but what you say is completely at odds with what I think you intend to say.

And it is this last part that I suspect is what irritates so many people.

[nzspokes]

I have read on here many times and like i said have seen UK riding school videos that encourage centre line hugging. He appears to say schools here teach no such thing as the correct way to ride being on the centre line and that its up to the rider to chose their line depending on conditions. Thats the way I have always ridden anyway.

Post a vid that shows that.

[jasonu]

Cassina, it is good you are not in Italy. You would spend so much time reading the road signs you would get no riding done (maybe a good thing)

Yep that is over the top but is no worse than the gaggle of signs you will see going down Symonds st.

[Gremlin]

I have read on here many times and like i said have seen UK riding school videos that encourage centre line hugging. He appears to say schools here teach no such thing as the correct way to ride being on the centre line and that its up to the rider to chose their line depending on conditions. Thats the way I have always ridden anyway.
Both countries follow the same roadcraft, but there are some exceptions, mainly around road rules. Order of precedence is:
- Road User Rules 2004 (legislation)
- Road Code (interpretation of legislation)
- Roadcraft

In the UK, it is legal to use the oncoming side of the road (a practise commonly referred to as offsiding) when setting up for a left hander. However, IAM UK is now discouraging this. It is not legal in NZ to use the opposite side of the road unless overtaking (and it's legal to do so).

Down a straight piece of road with no oncoming vehicles I would position myself just left of the centre line, giving myself equal opportunity and visibility to both sides of the road. I would sacrifice position for safety (the technical term) when there is oncoming traffic (why be closer to vehicles than you need to be?). All other factors considered, if I was on a straight piece of road and there was a road to the right, with limited visibility, I would move left to increase my view of that road.

And now for the mis-interpreted bit. Around left handers I would position myself close to the centre line. I am travelling at a reasonable speed that I can change my line mid corner, and when I do see oncoming traffic I sacrifice position for safety. Subject to safety and stability being satisfied, I can see further around the corner, traffic around the corner can see me sooner and all in all, gives me more time to react (which is at the core of roadcraft). Yes, I've seen plenty of vehicles cutting corners, including motorcycles, but guess who's breaking the law? I will still move and maximise my safety but also common I give them a very obvious arm that they should be keeping left.

[Gremlin]

I dont know how to post a video on here but this is the title of the Youtube video you should be able to look up. if he was to ride like that on many NZ roads he would likely end up dead.

How to ride like a Police biker! Advanced motorcycle riding techniques and skills - YouTube
Crossing of centre line already covered. The rest, probably one or two spots I'd be sacrificing position for safety but hard being perfect and having everyone critiquing every second back and forth.

I probably do more motorcycle km's a year than you (slowed down, only about 25-30k a year currently) and I'm still breathing... I also do a lot more back roads as a percentage of km travelled, including narrow gravel, unmarked sealed roads etc.

[R650R]

Cyclists want everything changed for them.... could just learn tor ide instead.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88305640/cyclists-suffer-spate-of-broken-bones-on-driveways-built-as-part-of-kapiti-expressway

[nzspokes]

I dont know how to post a video on here but this is the title of the Youtube video you should be able to look up. if he was to ride like that on many NZ roads he would likely end up dead.

How to ride like a Police biker! Advanced motorcycle riding techniques and skills - YouTube



Mods note - Done this for you and so that people don't quote me on it.

Thanks Mr Onearm.

Cassina, tell me where in that vid they say to stick the the centre line? Time on the vid will do.

And did you notice what they do with approaching traffic? SSV in play.....

As Gremlin said Offsiding is legal in the UK but not here.

[nzspokes]

Cyclists want everything changed for them.... could just learn tor ide instead.... http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/88305640/cyclists-suffer-spate-of-broken-bones-on-driveways-built-as-part-of-kapiti-expressway

Or learn to spell....LOL

No thats a fuckup.

[WristTwister]

But my safety tip is if you dont hug the centre line on bends there is no need to move left of centre if someone is coming the other way and if they are coming around the bend fast enough you may not have enough time to move left anyway. Will all bends being different the amount of time you get to get out of the way (if any) mid corner will vary greatly and you will have stuff all time at all if they are over the centre line. Too risky for me sorry but if you think thats safe good luck.

Is this what you mean?

http://www.southbayriders.com/forums/attachments/132943/

[MVnut]

or if you drive a Porsche....

[MVnut]

You just have to observe the riding to notice a lot of time is spent hugging the centre line and going over it too. Police riders have to take greater risks because of their jobs I guess.

Is that logic Cassina style ?

[Akzle]

I guess.


Is that logic Cassina style ?

pretty much

[nzspokes]

You just have to observe the riding to notice a lot of time is spent hugging the centre line and going over it too. Police riders have to take greater risks because of their jobs I guess.

Thats some epic comprehension fail you have there.

[Gremlin]

But my safety tip is if you dont hug the centre line on bends there is no need to move left of centre if someone is coming the other way and if they are coming around the bend fast enough you may not have enough time to move left anyway. Will all bends being different the amount of time you get to get out of the way (if any) mid corner will vary greatly and you will have stuff all time at all if they are over the centre line. Too risky for me sorry but if you think thats safe good luck.
You pay taxes like anyone else, why would you only use a third of the lane available? Take a typical left hander with limited visibility. By positioning yourself on the left hand side you've drastically reduced your forward vision, giving you less time to react for a given speed (and you'll see vehicles later, they'll see you later). The only option there would be to reduce speed to give you the same reaction time (remembering you should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear, and on a one lane road, half the distance).

Effectively you're in less control of your ride.

[buggerit]

Interesting statistic in the paper today. The tourists most frequently involved in accidents here are Australians. Apparently there are more of them on the road.
Guess we don't notice them 'cause they don't look much different to most of us, nor do they fly Australian flags. Maybe they should? :whistle:

I don't recall ever driving a Volvo and I haven't driven a Subaru since yesterday. I wouldn't mind driving Guy Martin's Volvo though.
http://www.driving.co.uk/news/guy-martin-on-his-volvo-fastest-car-in-britain/

Mate living in aussie tells me the driving instructors in WA make the students in manuals slip the car into neutral and use the brakes when stopping for lights etc, apparently down changing and engine braking is multitasking

[5ive]

Mate living in aussie tells me the driving instructors in WA make the students in manuals slip the car into neutral and use the brakes when stopping for lights etc, apparently down changing and engine braking is multitasking

Not surprising, we did the same thing here with indicators at roundabouts.

It was too hard apparently, but making it easier has still not improved correct indicator usage...

[Banditbandit]

That's kinda true, but there is a bigger chance of a rider accident when they're going too fast into a 25/35 corner than a 55/65 corner. Bikes can usually take most corners faster than cars because they're narrower. The rider's skill (or lack of it) can make a difference as well. A bigger threat can be the skill of cagers who go wide on narrow bends.

Not true - car can generally corner faster than bikes - cars have a HUGE amount more rubber 0n then road and therefore more grip ...

The difference si that the average bike rider is a better rider than the average car driver is a driver .. That neds to be true or we all die ..


It's true though, I once saw a facebook post about a rider who went to a riding school, and he said that you should hug the center line on left and right hand corners so that you can see cars coming the other way betterer.

Name the school - so we all know not to go there

[Swoop]

"Cassina logic"

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/contradiction_in_terms

Nuttier than squirrel shit.

And, if anyone suggests that "epic trolling" is happening... "no".
She's simply dumber than a bag of hammers.

[5ive]

Name the school - so we all know not to go there

Haha dude, I didn't think it was that subtle.:nya:

[johcar]

Considering how many corners have these signs there is no way that every one of them has a sufficient crash history to make this necessary. When these signs were initially erected the speed on them was determined by a ball on a curved track in the rear window of a test car.

Most corners can be quite safely taken quite a bit higher that the "recommended" speed. Under good conditions, with even a reasonably maintained vehicle and a semi-competant driver/rider, those signs can be read (roughly) as miles per hour. Only under poor conditions or for a POS vehicle or incompetant rider/driver do they need to be read in kph.

And for the record, it wouldn't worry me in the slightest if all of those signs disappeared overnight. I make my own assessment of every corner every time I go through it anyway.
The "advisory" signs on corners, are in fact guides.

You can generally take them at twice (or more) the posted speed on a bike, and around twice the posted speed in a modern car.

Conditions allowing, of course...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Moise]

Well, I met (almost) one of Cassina's LH corner, centre line huggers today. They were on the dotted line at corner entry and wobbled over to the left when they saw me coming. Fortunately I wasn't going fast, otherwise I think they might have fallen off!

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[jasonu]

Well, I met (almost) one of Cassina's LH corner, centre line huggers today. They were on the dotted line at corner entry and wobbled over to the left when they saw me coming. Fortunately I wasn't going fast, otherwise I think they might have fallen off!

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

But was anyone being pressured to keep up?

[onearmedbandit]

Maybe from that fright they got its the last time they believe everything they are taught in riding school. If riding schools want to teach centre line hugging it should only be when preparing for an overtake.

Oh so you know the rider and the training they've received...?

[Moise]

If it's not a blind corner and it helps you to see further ahead, that's one thing. But to be out on the centre line when you can barely see the apex is not clever.

This happened on Highway 22 a few km north of Naike. That's the 2nd drama I've had on the same section of road with motorcyclists in the last year.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk

[nzspokes]

If it's not a blind corner and it helps you to see further ahead, that's one thing. But to be out on the centre line when you can barely see the apex is not clever.

This happened on Highway 22 a few km north of Naike. That's the 2nd drama I've had on the same section of road with motorcyclists in the last year.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk
They would only have a fright if you were either naked or over the center line yourself.

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[Moise]

It's a narrow road at that point, so I was maybe 2 metres from centreline and leaned over when they saw me. It was actually quite funny, wish I had a video of it.

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[nzspokes]

It's a narrow road at that point, so I was maybe 2 metres from centreline and leaned over when they saw me. It was actually quite funny, wish I had a video of it.

Sent from somewhere using Tapatalk
Maybe put clothes on next time you ride then.

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[onearmedbandit]

It must be the training as I don't believe its taught in the road code. I think the road code actually says keep left unless overtaking which is how I ride and have been riding since 1976 with no mid life crisis stop. Lots of European videos show centre line hugging including riding school videos.

Oh so it couldn't be just a bad habit they developed themselves then....

[Zedder]

It must be the training as I don't believe its taught in the road code. I think the road code actually says keep left unless overtaking which is how I ride and have been riding since 1976 with no mid life crisis stop. Lots of European videos show centre line hugging including riding school videos.


Post some links of those riding schools training motorcyclists to ride the centreline.

[nzspokes]

So you agree with me then that riding schools should not be teaching it either?
How do you know what is being trained if you have never been trained?

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[onearmedbandit]

So you agree with me then that riding schools should not be teaching it either?

Edited for...

Got any evidence this is taught?

[nzspokes]

Some of us kiwis are DIYers and that includes learning to ride. I remember others on here over a year ago were critical of the practise of centre line hugging on bends also and if I remember correctly it was the IAM riding school that taught this. If you think its a safe practise you are deluded because it makes no allowance for anyone coming the other way slightly over the centre line.
So you have no idea then.

Also IAM is not a school. HTH

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[Zedder]

I've been teaching this for 18 months now. Nice to read that someone agrees with our approach. Pete
https://motorbikewriter.com/wide-entry-late-apex-safest-ro…/

I clicked on that post but it did not come up. Maybe its no longer taught? I interpret "wide entry" to mean centre line hug. Teachning centre line hugging unless prior to an overtake is dumb in my opinion.


So you're teaching motorcycle riding now, and you "interpret" wide entry to mean centreline hug.

Please, if you have any decency stop teaching and stay off the road!!

[nzspokes]

The link to the post from the riding school stated they have taught "wide entry" as being the way to corner. I think you are being semantical to not see it as meaning the same thing as a "centre line hug". It means the same thing as far as I am concerned. Look up some videos of Road Craft Nottingham IAM riding school and you will see a lot of examples of centre line hugging on bends. It maybe ok for an experienced rider when they are on a twisty road and can see multiple bends ahead but only then unless preparing to overtake.
Roadcraft Nottingham is not IAM.

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[SVboy]

So wide entry equals centerline hugging? Just "wow". You cant see that entering a left-hand bend, choosing a deliberate turn-in point as far right in your lane as is safe will give you an increased field of vision around the corner of hazards, both on-coming and in your lane, and gives you increased time and space to react. Of course Riding Schools teach this approach. They want their clients to live.

[onearmedbandit]

The link to the post from the riding school stated they have taught "wide entry" as being the way to corner. I think you are being semantical to not see it as meaning the same thing as a "centre line hug". It means the same thing as far as I am concerned. Look up some videos of Road Craft Nottingham IAM riding school and you will see a lot of examples of centre line hugging on bends. It maybe ok for an experienced rider when they are on a twisty road and can see multiple bends ahead but only then unless preparing to overtake.

Ok I must be missing something here, because I just watched a segment of one of their videos and the rider actually states not to be hugging the line for the left handcorner he's approaching, that the gain of maybe up to a couple metres is not worth it as you put yourself potentially in the path of oncoming traffic.

I've time stamped it from where he says his piece.

https://youtu.be/EBvsaN3Tc9c?t=10m18s

[Zedder]

I am not a riding school teacher but just gave proof when another poster asked for it that centre line hugging or to use their lingo "Wide Entry" is actually taught in some riding schools. So if the poster that witnessed the centre line hugger coming towards them had called them "cornering widely" they would have been riding correctly in your book?


If you're going to post a quote from someone, put it in quote marks.

P.S., you're an utter egg!

[nzspokes]

Even if they are separate schools that is not the topic under debate though.
IAM is not a school.

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[neels]

Its not possible to see around the corner on a lot of bends irrespective of where you position yourself on the road and the further you are to the centre the less time you have to react if shit happens. But dont let me put you off what the riding school teaches. The road code from what I last read says "Keep Left".

A bit of high school maths would suggest that being further to the right of the lane can considerably increase the line of vision on a bend, giving more time to react if something untoward was to happen, it doesn't mean you need to be riding right on the centreline.

The other aspect of riding wider into a left hand corner is that tightening your line if necessary takes you further into your own lane, whereas if you're on the left of the road and have to avoid something (and on the edge of the road is where something unexpected is more likely to be) then you are widening your line which is sending you in the direction of any oncoming traffic.

[Grumph]

Its not possible to see around the corner on a lot of bends irrespective of where you position yourself on the road and the further you are to the centre the less time you have to react if shit happens. But dont let me put you off what the riding school teaches. The road code from what I last read says "Keep Left".

For gods sake, stop it. Wide entry is NOT centerline hugging. It's a technique used to make any given corner a wider radius - thus safer.
I'm assuming you're one of those idiots who doesn't use the full width of his lane....Thus misses out on the safety aspects of positioning to see as far ahead as possible on corner entry. Note I said entry....You are expected to take a line which on a left starting out close to the centerline will bring you out close to the kerb. On a right you'd start out wide to the left of your lane and if vision is clear, come out closer to the centerline.

[Bassmatt]

:brick::brick::brick::brick::brick::brick:

[swbarnett]

Unlike you I am not "expected" to take any particular line in a corner as they are all different where I live and I treat them so and there may be some I actually ride "your way" its just that I dont analyse over it like you guys do. Sticking to a "specific line" for all bends is a recipie for disaster in my opinion.
Of course there are always expections to the rules (and I don't mean laws in this context). First learn the rules, then learn when you can, and sometimes should, break them. You haven't even learned the rules yet so you're far from qualified to talk about when they can and should be broken.

[nzspokes]

So what road rules have I advocated breaking on here as you are the first person to say

Killing dogs.

[SVboy]

Its not possible to see around the corner on a lot of bends irrespective of where you position yourself on the road and the further you are to the centre the less time you have to react if shit happens. But dont let me put you off what the riding school teaches. The road code from what I last read says "Keep Left".

May I encourage you to remain keeping far left on blind left handers. You will be fine. For ALL other motorcyclist's please disregard this dangerous fool's blatherings. Darwins law should be along shortly.

[george formby]

So what road rules have I advocated breaking on here as you are the first person to say I have? I may have said I have exceeded the speed limit from time to time but have never suggested others on here do the same. For your information I have held a full license since about 1977 and I would be no longer alive if I did not know the rules.

Using that logic, all motorists and riders who have held their licence for a similar length of time should know the rules and be safe, capable, road users, too. My experience on the road does not imply this. Nor do the statistics.

Doing the same thing for a long period of time is no indicator of improvement or wisdom.

[Scubbo]

http://i.imgur.com/8MWjqcl.gif

[AllanB]

I've decided I need to be more tolerant of other road users stupidity. I'm pulling back, chilling out, or passing the fucker and getting the hell out of there.

2017 is going to be stressful at work - I plan to reduce stress elsewhere.


Wine is nice. But not while riding.

[george formby]

I've decided I need to be more tolerant of other road users stupidity. I'm pulling back, chilling out, or passing the fucker and getting the hell out of there.

.

Oh, you know ChCh's biggest threat by sight?

[Gremlin]

Doing the same thing for a long period of time is no indicator of improvement or wisdom.
Someone once broke it down quite easily.

Riding for 20 years? OK, so a mixture of commuting, race track, country riding?
Ok, just country, once or twice a month, maybe every weekend?
Ok, so all weather, rain, sun, wind etc?
Ok, so just sun, and in 20 years, you've pretty much covered most roads in the country?
Ok, so you have a route you take every time (for Aucklanders, perhaps Puhoi, Kauaia etc)
Ok, so call it 5 or 10 routes...

Over 20 years you've got 5-10 days of experience, the rest were pretty much just repeats of stuff you'd already done...

So, just because you've been riding for a number of years, doesn't mean you have a heap of experience...

[AllanB]

Over 20 years you've got 5-10 days of experience, the rest were pretty much just repeats of stuff you'd already done...

You talking about my love life?

[awayatc]

some people are just not suitable......

some can't take a hint

[swbarnett]

So what road rules have I advocated breaking on here as you are the first person to say I have? I may have said I have exceeded the speed limit from time to time but have never suggested others on here do the same.
Typical. You obviously missed this bit:

(and I don't mean laws in this context)

I am NOT talking about legalities. I'm talking about the rules of practice. Without a knowledge of these a motorcyclist is just another lump of cells on a bike.

It's like when I was into photography. There are rules of composition (the rule of thirds for example). When you're a novice you stick to the rules. When you understand them well enough you get to know when you can break them to producesome amazingly dynamic pictures.



For your information I have held a full license since about 1977 and I would be no longer alive if I did not know the rules.
And yet you keep hitting things and claiming there was nothing you could've done. You're alive today by sheer dumb luck. You're proof that the roads aren't as dangerous as some would have us believe.

[swbarnett]

When advertising for staff many employers prefer experience over qualifications so there must be some merit in having experience over just a qualification. So to you then holding a riding school qualification demonstrates a better ability to ride than 10 years or more experience?
As Gremlin said, longevity of experience doesn't mean you can do the job. Neither does a qualifiacation. I've known people that were hired because they had both that didn't last six months. They may have been in the industry for a number of years and passed a lot of exams but they simply could not do the job.

[swbarnett]

In most cases having experience does prove you can do the job otherwise why would most employers ask for it? Have a look at current job ads if you dont believe me.
Oh, I believe you. Most of the time, yes, years of experience counts for something. The point is that it doesn't always follow.

The other point is that experience in a job is more likely to bear fruit then experience in a hobby. After all, you do your job (supposedly) eight hours a day. How often someone does their hobby can vary wildly.

[swbarnett]

It could be said we are all alive today as a result of sheer dumb luck or maybe in your case another vehicle has never swerved towards you as a result of a screwup on their part.
It's happened to me a number of times. EVERY time I've been in a position to react accordingly and come of still rubber side down. This is because I accept that shit can happen (yes, even to me) and I plan accordingly.


If you know of any new rules that should be in the road code why not let the authorites know about them?
Woooshhh!!! That's the sound of the concept passing overhead as you duck for cover, fearing that you might actually learn something.


On the other hand though to use your photographic analogy you ride better when you break them. I think you are somewhat mixed up.
Yet again you completely refuse to accept the idea of CONTEXT. In the photographic analogy, yes, breaking the rules can produce some dramatic results. However, there are also times when sticking to the rules will do the same. It's a matter of knowing when to apply the rules and when you're better off trusting your own read of the situation.

[Akzle]

some people are just not suitable......

some can't take a hint

i think he needs to take a punch, more like.

[nzspokes]

In most cases having experience does prove you can do the job otherwise why would most employers ask for it? Have a look at current job ads if you dont believe me.

As an employer, I will take somebody with quality current training over someone that has made it up as they have gone along.

Sounds like you cant keep up with employment either.

[trufflebutter]

In most cases having experience does prove you can do the job otherwise why would most employers ask for it? Have a look at current job ads if you dont believe me.
I agree, having experience in a particular industry does put you in a better position than having being taught/trained by someone who just shares his/her opinion, then falsely rewards you with a certificate of 'pass' and then pats you the back and says ''Go get 'em Tiger''.

[neels]

Now that we've established that 30 years of doing something badly does not qualify you to have an opinion on what others should do, and that training and/or qualifications are no indication of actually being able to do something properly or in a useful fashion....

Back to the original topic , the next batch of loopies are being let loose on the roads, careful out there folks......

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88896141/west-coast-police-target-slow-rental-car-drivers

[george formby]

Now that we've established that 30 years of doing something badly does not qualify you to have an opinion on what others should do, and that training and/or qualifications are no indication of actually being able to do something properly or in a useful fashion....

Back to the original topic , the next batch of loopies are being let loose on the roads, careful out there folks......

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/88896141/west-coast-police-target-slow-rental-car-drivers

Exceedingly pertinent. On a recent all day trip I came to the conclusion that 80kmh is the new 100kmh. Why? Not sure, tourists being cautious and Kiwis scared of being pinged sprang to mind. It was a mind bendingly slow day.

[Moi]

Whether you're riding or driving - remember school starts this week...

There will be more traffic about and, especially, lots of kids...

We're the big people and we're expected to look out for them and look after them!

[AllanB]

I've come across a lot of drivers on the open road who crawl dangerously slow around corners (following cars emergency braking behind them) then accelerating on the straights and sitting on 110 or so. They are clearly uncomfortable about cornering on the open road.

[trufflebutter]

Exceedingly pertinent. On a recent all day trip I came to the conclusion that 80kmh is the new 100kmh. Why? Not sure, tourists being cautious and Kiwis scared of being pinged sprang to mind. It was a mind bendingly slow day.

These over cautious twats are the same ones that, while traveling at that terribly annoying speed, brake when they see a van parked to their approaching left.

[neels]

I've come across a lot of drivers on the open road who crawl dangerously slow around corners (following cars emergency braking behind them) then accelerating on the straights and sitting on 110 or so. They are clearly uncomfortable about cornering on the open road.
Yep, had one of those on the way back from the west coast on sunday, guy in a ute braking and crawling around corners, then pulled into the slow vehicle lane and stuck his foot up it so only one of the 5 bikes following him had enough road to get past :brick:

[Grumph]

These over cautious twats are the same ones that, while traveling at that terribly annoying speed, brake when they see a van parked to their approaching left.

But vans frighten people....That has to be why they just have to pass them ASAP.

Having of late years owned a couple of vans capable of very rapid journeys track to track....(no details will be supplied) I can tell you that there are those in the world who 1/ Will not be passed by a van...and 2/ Must pass the van NOW.

Weird but true.

[AllanB]

Vans are dangerous.

In Christchurch they are full of tradies - many I suspect are stoned while driving or consider giving way something other people do.

They are also the preferred vehicle of pedos. Be wary of tinted windows children.

And of course if parked on the side of a road there is a reasonsble chance The Police are in there taking your photo.

[Moi]

... And of course if parked on the side of a road there is a reasonable chance The Police are in there taking your photo.

Correction... eating donuts

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/26/article-2513843-0AD36599000005DC-736_306x423.jpg


IMO, too many drivers / riders regard driving / riding as a secondary distraction, rather than their primary focus...

[Grumph]

Vans are dangerous.

In Christchurch they are full of tradies - many I suspect are stoned while driving or consider giving way something other people do.

They are also the preferred vehicle of pedos. Be wary of tinted windows children.

And of course if parked on the side of a road there is a reasonsble chance The Police are in there taking your photo.

All sadly true...In ChCh post quakes it has been so bad for tradies that I understand most have developed a P habit now...

[Gremlin]

Vans are dangerous.

In Christchurch they are full of tradies - many I suspect are stoned while driving or consider giving way something other people do.

They are also the preferred vehicle of pedos. Be wary of tinted windows children.
Phew. My tint wasn't dark enough so I chucked vinyl on them... so it's not tinted! :sweatdrop Driving a Hiace, I reckon the couriers do an excellent job with their poor skills. Most people stay well away from me :D (oh, and couriers even let me in!)

[AllanB]

All sadly true...In ChCh post quakes it has been so bad for tradies that I understand most have developed a P habit now...

Probably should read: In ChCh post quakes, tradies have done so well that they can now afford a P habit .....

[Akzle]

I've come across a lot of drivers on the open road who crawl dangerously slow around corners (following cars emergency braking behind them) then accelerating on the straights and sitting on 110 or so. They are clearly uncomfortable about cornering on the open road. are shit at life

vote akzle. that's cause for a public flogging.

[SVboy]

The fucktards were thick on the ground on the Akaroa GP today. AllanB was forced to take his Ducati street fighter up Western Vally road just to avoid the mongs in rental corollas and campers. Not to mention the nose breather bus driver that felt being stopped in the middle of the road around a blind corner was a good idea.......

[KawasakiKid]

Not to mention the nose breather bus driver


Is 'nose breather' a derogatory term in NZ ? Actually nose breathing is the best way to breathe. Go and google 'Buteyko method'

[AllanB]

The fucktards were thick on the ground on the Akaroa GP today. AllanB was forced to take his Ducati street fighter up Western Vally road just to avoid the mongs in rental corollas and campers. Not to mention the nose breather bus driver that felt being stopped in the middle of the road around a blind corner was a good idea.......

It was a pretty average ride on the hill for sure - I got to the Hilltop and turned around back to Little River - too many cars, no fun to be had. Western Valley road is very peaceful as is the church at the top of the hill. The dead in Little River have a million dollar view.

Stupid tourist buses. A third of my trip down the hill was behind one - to be fair the driver was being very sensible (slow) making allowance for potential idiots on blind corners. I am always amazed at the size of the boats people pull over that hill!