Support for our front line Ambo's.

[ruaphu]

Something a bit different, not strictly biking but definitely biker related. Not sure if this has been posted before.

The link below is for petition for the front line Ambo staff crewing conditions to be improved in St John's.

These front line, hands on, take all the shit thrown at them medical people have picked up many a biker over the years. They are always there for us, be a good time if we bikers could be there for them eh.

Only takes four clicks to sign and show your support.

Just to be open and honest, yes my wife is one of those picking us up when things go wrong. She's a biker too[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]so is one of us.

Thanks in advance.

http://www.together.org.nz/ambos?recruiter_id=28867


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[Moi]

In the past have contributed to their various fund raising appeals.

Reading about this in the paper the other day decided that I won't be contributing next time I'm asked, but will return the envelope with a note saying no contribution while front line paramedics are being treated in what I consider to be a 'shabby fashion'.

ruaphu, give your wife a huge hug from all of us who truly appreciate what she and other paramedics do for their community :hug:

[russd7]

something seriously wrong with the whole St John organisation, there needs to be a massive shake up at the top levels

[R650R]

Not enough info on that page.... seems as other ambos already happy... http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/318916/ambulance-staff-reach-agreement-over-pay

Maybe its lower at the bottom but ive heard a proper fully trained paramedic gets good $$$$$

https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/health-and-community/health/paramedic/

Yes its a tough job and in the front line with meth heads and other unappreciative losers needing treatment....

Supported in past and still will but hey lot of the issues raised are already covered under labour laws and OSH, up to ambo and unions to sort it out, public petition is irrelevant.

[tigertim20]

Not enough info on that page.... seems as other ambos already happy... http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/318916/ambulance-staff-reach-agreement-over-pay

Maybe its lower at the bottom but ive heard a proper fully trained paramedic gets good $$$$$

https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/health-and-community/health/paramedic/

Yes its a tough job and in the front line with meth heads and other unappreciative losers needing treatment....

Supported in past and still will but hey lot of the issues raised are already covered under labour laws and OSH, up to ambo and unions to sort it out, public petition is irrelevant.

Good $$$ is relative though isn't it.

I reckon there is a difference between Good $$ for someone pumping gas on a forecourt, and good $$ for someone who routinely turns up to car accidents where people's heads are smashed like pumpkins because they drove drunk and caused families, and small children, or other innocents sickening, life threatening injuries.

Given the horrors that those poor bastards have to see and deal with, I don't think the money the earn is very good. not to mention shift work etc etc.

[v twin]

Good $$$ is relative though isn't it.

I reckon there is a difference between Good $$ for someone pumping gas on a forecourt, and good $$ for someone who routinely turns up to car accidents where people's heads are smashed like pumpkins because they drove drunk and caused families, and small children, or other innocents sickening, life threatening injuries.

Given the horrors that those poor bastards have to see and deal with, I don't think the money the earn is very good. not to mention shift work etc etc.

Yip totally agree, a difficult job on many levels... even more so in local communities with more volunteers and the likelihood of going to a job where the incident involves people you know....

[caspernz]

Not enough info on that page.... seems as other ambos already happy... http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/318916/ambulance-staff-reach-agreement-over-pay

Maybe its lower at the bottom but ive heard a proper fully trained paramedic gets good $$$$$

https://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-database/health-and-community/health/paramedic/

Yes its a tough job and in the front line with meth heads and other unappreciative losers needing treatment....

Supported in past and still will but hey lot of the issues raised are already covered under labour laws and OSH, up to ambo and unions to sort it out, public petition is irrelevant.

The downside is that we don't get to hear the full story in the media. Once First Union can no longer talk with St John, because St John walk away from the negotiating table, the public petition becomes one tool to level the playing field. St John is viewed as some holier than thou entity in this country, the reality is a little different...

[Akzle]

.

Given the horrors that those poor bastards have to see and deal with, I don't think the money the earn is very good. not to mention shift work etc etc.

yeah but find me the paramed that thought they'd be putting Pooh-bear bandaids on little timmy's scrapes all day, and i'll show you someone who's mildly retarded.
it's not like they go into it unkowingly, they do what they do because it's #therightthingtodo. which more cunts should do. but economoney.

[nzspokes]

The downside is that we don't get to hear the full story in the media. Once First Union can no longer talk with St John, because St John walk away from the negotiating table, the public petition becomes one tool to level the playing field. St John is viewed as some holier than thou entity in this country, the reality is a little different...

Having been in the middle of Union things in the past, truth is often moved to improve position.

It would be interesting to know the full story but I doubt we ever will.

[russd7]

Yip totally agree, a difficult job on many levels... even more so in local communities with more volunteers and the likelihood of going to a job where the incident involves people you know....

unfortunately small comunities struggle to get the volly's they need, and that is part due to the way the system is managed, it is a very big commitment and yet if our local ambo in riverton gets called and transports to hospital in invercargill they then need to clean and restock and then they get to come home, well one would think they should but no, (this has actually happened) our volunteers can then get dispatched to another call elsewhere, this causes two problems of significance, A/ the ambo is out of service for its own comuntity longer than necessary B/ more importantly, the officers are out longer than necessary.

as a volunteer fireman we are now getting responded to more and more medicals because of the ineptitude of the ambulance management.

[caspernz]

Having been in the middle of Union things in the past, truth is often moved to improve position.

It would be interesting to know the full story but I doubt we ever will.

See example below, gives you a small hint of the problem.


unfortunately small comunities struggle to get the volly's they need, and that is part due to the way the system is managed, it is a very big commitment and yet if our local ambo in riverton gets called and transports to hospital in invercargill they then need to clean and restock and then they get to come home, well one would think they should but no, (this has actually happened) our volunteers can then get dispatched to another call elsewhere, this causes two problems of significance, A/ the ambo is out of service for its own comuntity longer than necessary B/ more importantly, the officers are out longer than necessary.

as a volunteer fireman we are now getting responded to more and more medicals because of the ineptitude of the ambulance management.

[v twin]

Good management makes for good business, shit rolls down hill. So if it's shit at the bottom you know it's full of shit heads at the top. St. John's cops Bunnings all the same.... I think people want to do a good job even if they can't, so you shouldn't try and put down the ground staff for complaining when it's probably all down to the 'economoney' bullshit looking for a bigger bonus or a new merc or even just a big ego

[ruaphu]

.

ruaphu, give your wife a huge hug from all of us who truly appreciate what she and other paramedics do for their community :hug:

Thanks Moi, shall do, she loves her job and the people she serves, just not the politics and especially not the single crewing.

From my perspective it can be somewhat worrisome knowing she's going out single crewed having listened to what she has had to deal with in the past (some just down right horrifying)

In my humble view St J have lost their humanity. Somewhat Ironic their mission statement is 'first to care'................ from my perspective, obviously not for their front line staff.


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[Ruahine]

unfortunately small comunities struggle to get the volly's they need, and that is part due to the way the system is managed, it is a very big commitment and yet if our local ambo in riverton gets called and transports to hospital in invercargill they then need to clean and restock and then they get to come home, well one would think they should but no, (this has actually happened) our volunteers can then get dispatched to another call elsewhere, this causes two problems of significance, A/ the ambo is out of service for its own comuntity longer than necessary B/ more importantly, the officers are out longer than necessary.

as a volunteer fireman we are now getting responded to more and more medicals because of the ineptitude of the ambulance management.

I volunteer with St John here in Auckland.

The main problem is that the ambulance service is seriously underfunded. Workload is increasing year on year but the funding levels have stayed the same. In Auckland the number of ambulances on each watch hasn't changed for years but the number of callouts keeps increasing.

The result is that staff are getting overworked with little downtime in a 12 hour shift. I have been told it was usual 10 or so years ago to only get a few jobs per shift, now we normally get 5-8. This means the crew get little time to debrief and unwind. Increasingly meal breaks are getting broken and crews are having to take a job just before their shift ends - meaning they may be working continuously for 13-14hrs.

Most paramedics now have degrees, the job is getting increasingly more complicated - the latest protocols have considerably increased their responsibility - yet the pay remains the same and to be honest is not really enough.

The strikes started as a way to try and improve working conditions, primarily to ensure that breaks can be taken and to reduce the chance of shifts being extended. Some positive changes have been made because of this but fundamentally we need more crews to reduce the workload and unless the funding gets a boost that is not going to happen.

[ruaphu]

unfortunately small comunities struggle to get the volly's they need, and that is part due to the way the system is managed, it is a very big commitment and yet if our local ambo in riverton gets called and transports to hospital in invercargill they then need to clean and restock and then they get to come home, well one would think they should but no, (this has actually happened) our volunteers can then get dispatched to another call elsewhere, this causes two problems of significance, A/ the ambo is out of service for its own comuntity longer than necessary B/ more importantly, the officers are out longer than necessary.

as a volunteer fireman we are now getting responded to more and more medicals because of the ineptitude of the ambulance management.

The volley fire officers are awesome, my wife has had to rely on them on numerous occasions.

Where would nz be without our Vollies (weather they be fire, ambo, community, hospital etc) eh. Our nations unsung heroes saving and caring for our arses nationwide......... daily [emoji106]


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[ruaphu]

yeah but find me the paramed that thought they'd be putting Pooh-bear bandaids on little timmy's scrapes all day, and i'll show you someone who's mildly retarded.
it's not like they go into it unkowingly, they do what they do because it's #therightthingtodo. which more cunts should do. but economoney.

Yep you're right Ax. No amount of money would cover the shit our emergency services (paid and our awesome vollies) have to endure on a reoccurring basis.


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[Akzle]

Yep you're right Ax. No amount of money would cover the shit our emergency services (paid and our awesome vollies) have to endure on a reoccurring basis.


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hey, but at least the fully funded (by you) crown policy enforcers are out there making shit bett//

o... wait on.

[russd7]

in any emergency situation whether be an ambo call or fire call or MVA, if the general public are around then some of em can be right arse holes, i have been nearly run over while diverting traffic because a fuckwit was on his cell phone or something instead of paying attention, admittedly it was dark and the diversion was a long way from the accident scene at the time, but one would imagine red flashing lights and an accident sign and a guy standing there in full fire fighting kit may have just given it away, not easy to move quickly in bunker coat and trou.

[Old Steve]

I've gone and signed it, the St John Ambos picked me up six weeks ago and took me to hospital. They were professional, courteous and caring. The first thing they said to me was that they were genuine St John ambos because they were in civvies, they told me they were continuing to work while in dispute with St John so would not wear the St John uniform, I've heard since that St John has stated that any ambo not wearing the uniform on shift will be docked $10 per shift.

It takes special people to do this job. This dispute would soon be over if every ambo downed tools, but they see a greater need for their services than that so are working on through the dispute, not begrudgingly but giving the public their full support.

[russd7]

I've gone and signed it, the St John Ambos picked me up six weeks ago and took me to hospital. They were professional, courteous and caring. The first thing they said to me was that they were genuine St John ambos because they were in civvies, they told me they were continuing to work while in dispute with St John so would not wear the St John uniform, I've heard since that St John has stated that any ambo not wearing the uniform on shift will be docked $10 per shift.

It takes special people to do this job. This dispute would soon be over if every ambo downed tools, but they see a greater need for their services than that so are working on through the dispute, not begrudgingly but giving the public their full support.

can you imagine the uproar if they ambo's downed tools, fuck me, my pager would be going all the time cause they would then respond the big red trucks to everything.

don't disagree tho, and this single crewing shit is BS, how the fuck is a paramedic supposed to drive the ambo and monitor/treat the victim in the back.

they do need more support from the general public and those that abuse or get shitty with any emergency service whether it be paid or volly's should have the fucken book rammed down their throats, don't need arrogant toss pots adding to an already stressful situation

[Moi]

All of this "showcases" the she'll be right attitude of many in this country. If we consider ourselves to be inhabitants of a first-world nation then perhaps we need to be prepared to pay the cost of being a first-world nation and have paid professional emergency crews for ambulance and fire service throughout the country.

As russd7 said: "can you imagine the uproar if the ambo's downed tools". Well can you imagine the uproar if the taxpayers were told they were going to have to pay for 24-hour pay professional emergency response crews?

But, I do think it is time we as a nation started to have these sorts of conversations - conversations about fire and ambulance services, conversations about how we can reduce the road toll, conversations about we treat the police and medical professionals - think House Surgeons, conversations about how we treat the lowest paid and those who need social support? conversations about what we believe is important to be a civilised first-world nation...

[Old Steve]

Moi, doesn't the presence of Axle in our population preclude us from ever being "a civilised first-world nation"? :laugh:

[Ocean1]

conversations about we treat the police and medical professionals - think House Surgeons,

Very true, the parasitic wee darlings are rorting the system something wicked, it's about time we asked them to pay some of that $1M plus each it costs the taxpayer to train them.

[Moi]

Moi, doesn't the presence of Axle in our population preclude us from ever being "a civilised first-world nation"? :laugh:

There are times when he does "lower the tone", but other times when he, like Muldoon as a backbencher, can be a "little prick" in our national conscience... unlike some, Akzle isn't a total f***wit all the time.

[Moi]

Bring car registration up to the level of bike registration and the emergency services may actually be able to be fully funded including rescue. helicopters.

Not going to work...

To licence a car for 12 months = $43.50
To licence a 601cc+ bike for 12 months = $24.50

What makes the difference in the total amount paid is the ACC levy - to have ACC funding emergency servise, i.e. fire and ambulance including rescue helicopters, would require a change in legislation covering the activities and responsibilities of ACC. I can't see that happening...

[Moi]

Very true, the parasitic wee darlings are rorting the system something wicked, it's about time we asked them to pay some of that $1M plus each it costs the taxpayer to train them.

I am not concerned with the cost of training a doctor.

I am more concerned with house surgeons and registrars working ridiculous hours. If I am admitted to A&E, I'd much rather have a registrar who has done 4 hours of their shift examining me than one who has do 8+ hours.

[Ruahine]

Not going to work...

To licence a car for 12 months = $43.50
To licence a 601cc+ bike for 12 months = $24.50

What makes the difference in the total amount paid is the ACC levy - to have ACC funding emergency servise, i.e. fire and ambulance including rescue helicopters, would require a change in legislation covering the activities and responsibilities of ACC. I can't see that happening...


ACC does fund some of the ambulance service. Around 80% of St John is funded by a combination of the Ministry of Health, ACC and the DHBs.

http://www.stjohn.org.nz/funding

Most of the fire service is funded through the fire levy in insurance.

[Moi]

ACC does fund some of the ambulance service. Around 80% of St John is funded by a combination of the Ministry of Health, ACC and the DHBs.

http://www.stjohn.org.nz/funding

Most of the fire service is funded through the fire levy in insurance.

True - be nice to see a breakdown of who pays what percentage...

Though St John's is contracted to ACC to provide ambulance service, so would still expect change in either legislation or ACC protocols to fund a country-wide ambulance service.

What I hoped to point out was that to do such country-wide 24/7/365 funding would require "direction" from the politicians and I can't see that happening... unfortunately.

[Akzle]

a total f***wit all the time.
:

...

. .

[Ruahine]

True - be nice to see a breakdown of who pays what percentage...

Though St John's is contracted to ACC to provide ambulance service, so would still expect change in either legislation or ACC protocols to fund a country-wide ambulance service.

What I hoped to point out was that to do such country-wide 24/7/365 funding would require "direction" from the politicians and I can't see that happening... unfortunately.

Yeah it would be great to get a breakdown of who pays what, I tried to find it but no luck so far.

Generally Ambulance jobs are classed as non-ACC (Medical stuff usually) or ACC (Car accidents, falls, workplace accidents etc). If the incident falls under ACC then I assume ACC pick up all of the pre-hospital costs for that patient - certainly St John doesn't charge ACC patients for the Ambulance part charge.

So ACC definitely funds the ambulance service in an indirect way, through picking up the costs for ACC patients. I expect they also supply bulk funding but I am not sure of this. However you are correct in that under the current model, ACC funding wouldn't apply to a lot of Ambulance calls as they are not classed as accidents (i.e heart attacks, strokes etc). I guess this is where the Ministry of Health and the local DHBs money will kick in.

I understand that St John has campaigned the government for more money to end single crewing. The CEO of St John has been banging on about it for a while now and he seems confident that single crewing will soon be a thing of the past. Time will tell.

[Ocean1]

I am not concerned with the cost of training a doctor.

I am more concerned with house surgeons and registrars working ridiculous hours. If I am admitted to A&E, I'd much rather have a registrar who has done 4 hours of their shift examining me than one who has do 8+ hours.

In most cases the fact that they're "on duty" doesn't have much to do with whether they're "working" or not.

And in fact the DHBs are absolutely comfortable with reduced hrs, even though they've have to build more baby doc's into the system. But the union wants the same roster with paid days off inserted. Nobody ever paid me for my weekends. And nobody sure as fuck ever paid me over a million dollars over and above my hourly rate for the privilege of training me.

I suggest that you believe fuck all you hear from the union over the next few weeks industrial action.

[Moi]

In most cases the fact that they're "on duty" doesn't have much to do with whether they're "working" or not.

The same could be said about firemen and ambulance staff [though I somehow doubt it].

However, I doubt if many or any registrars sit around drinking coffee and eating chocolate biscuits during their shift. Perhaps there might be A&E staff on KB who are willing to share their experience of work - better work stories?



And in fact the DHBs are absolutely comfortable with reduced hrs, even though they've have to build more baby doc's into the system. But the union wants the same roster with paid days off inserted. Nobody ever paid me for my weekends. And nobody sure as fuck ever paid me over a million dollars over and above my hourly rate for the privilege of training me.

You'll find that most who are "salaried" are paid for their days off - that's the big difference between hourly wages and salary. So you begrudge the cost of training doctors? Is it so terribly awful that it costs over 1 million dollars over 6 years to train someone who makes life and death decisions - I want doctors who are well trained, competent and capable of making sound and well-reasoned decisions.



I suggest that you believe fuck all you hear from the union over the next few weeks industrial action.

Do I detect a little union bashing?

[russd7]

Not going to work...

To licence a car for 12 months = $43.50
To licence a 601cc+ bike for 12 months = $24.50

What makes the difference in the total amount paid is the ACC levy - to have ACC funding emergency servise, i.e. fire and ambulance including rescue helicopters, would require a change in legislation covering the activities and responsibilities of ACC. I can't see that happening...

acc already pay the cost for accidents, its all the other shit that has to come out of the health system and we do not want acc to pay for that shit, they already hand out money for shit they were never intended to cover.
ACC dont and never will pay for the fire service, that is still funded from a levy on your insurance which brings up other issues not relevant to this thread

[Ocean1]

The same could be said about firemen and ambulance staff [though I somehow doubt it].

However, I doubt if many or any registrars sit around drinking coffee and eating chocolate biscuits during their shift. Perhaps there might be A&E staff on KB who are willing to share their experience of work - better work stories?




You'll find that most who are "salaried" are paid for their days off - that's the big difference between hourly wages and salary. So you begrudge the cost of training doctors? Is it so terribly awful that it costs over 1 million dollars over 6 years to train someone who makes life and death decisions - I want doctors who are well trained, competent and capable of making sound and well-reasoned decisions.




Do I detect a little union bashing?

They're not salaried, they're on an hourly rate. In fact they've fought tooth and nail to avoid a salary for years. And no, I don't begrudge the cost of training them. But if I'm paying for the training I'm fucked if I'll have them take advantage of that by demanding to be paid hysterically extortionate hourly rates while I do so.

I see the senior docs are demanding $500/hr to cover for the wee darlings while they're out too.

And yes, their's is probably the most militant organisation in the country, but if a religious organisation behaved that way I'd still call them larcenous, hypocritical pricks.

[Moi]

They're not salaried, they're on an hourly rate.

If I remember correctly, a house surgeon is waged probably somewhere between $70 000 and $100 000. A registrar is salaried.



In fact they've fought tooth and nail to avoid a salary for years.

That may be so... I don't remember that be said...


And no, I don't begrudge the cost of training them. But if I'm paying for the training I'm fucked if I'll have them take advantage of that by demanding to be paid hysterically extortionate hourly rates while I do so.

So, someone who has trained for 6 years is being paid a "hysterically extortionate hourly rate" of between $70K and $100K, that's about $55/hour... what does a mechanic charge an hour? What about a plumber? What about a builder?


I see the senior docs are demanding $500/hr to cover for the wee darlings while they're out too.

If top surgeons earn over $500K, then $500/hr is almost twice what they normally earn - that could be "hysterically extortionate"!


And yes, their's is probably the most militant organisation in the country, but if a religious organisation behaved that way I'd still call them larcenous, hypocritical pricks.

Are you sure you mean "larcenous"?

[Moi]

acc already pay the cost for accidents, its all the other shit that has to come out of the health system and we do not want acc to pay for that shit, they already hand out money for shit they were never intended to cover.

I was surprised just how much was paid for by ACC. The point I was trying to make to a certain KBer - whose name we shall not mention - was that if ACC was to pay for more than legislation would need to be changed - personally I don't see that happening.

I agree that ACC has been changed out of all recognition of the initial concept that was introduced in the 1970s, with the result that levies have been increased inappropriately for some sectors...



ACC don't and never will pay for the fire service, that is still funded from a levy on your insurance which brings up other issues not relevant to this thread

Yes, I was aware of that. Was just trying to make a point to someone... :facepalm:

[Ocean1]

If I remember correctly, a house surgeon is waged probably somewhere between $70 000 and $100 000. A registrar is salaried.




That may be so... I don't remember that be said...



So, someone who has trained for 6 years is being paid a "hysterically extortionate hourly rate" of between $70K and $100K, that's about $55/hour... what does a mechanic charge an hour? What about a plumber? What about a builder?



If top surgeons earn over $500K, then $500/hr is almost twice what they normally earn - that could be "hysterically extortionate"!



Are you sure you mean "larcenous"?

Actually, it's way more complicated than that. They're all, in fact salaried, but the salary is based on one of several hourly rates depending on the category of work they're doing. Cat A is the highest rate, (ED) and the only cat requiring up to 60 hrs/week. I'd like to know how many 60hr weeks have been "required", (as opposed to requested) recently, but it's certainly fuck all.

And let's be clear about this: junior doc's are still training. Never mind the mere tradies, I don't know of any profession at all that pays what amounts to an apprentice $70 to $100k while still covering over $1m in training subsidies. Each. And that's not including their several weeks per year all expense paid sabatical leave, their free lunches etc etc etc etc etc.

NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason.

Larceny. Theft. Extortion is usually classed as theft, and I can't but see that demanding moneys under threat of physical duress is anything but.

[russd7]

I was surprised just how much was paid for by ACC. The point I was trying to make to a certain KBer - whose name we shall not mention - was that if ACC was to pay for more than legislation would need to be changed - personally I don't see that happening.

I agree that ACC has been changed out of all recognition of the initial concept that was introduced in the 1970s, with the result that levies have been increased inappropriately for some sectors...




Yes, I was aware of that. Was just trying to make a point to someone... :facepalm:

yeah, i had posted this before i read your further coments :rolleyes:

interestingly, the fire service do not receive all the funds the government collects from the fire service levy, a fair portion of those levies go in to the consolidated fund

[Moi]

Actually, it's way more complicated than that. They're all, in fact salaried, but the salary is based on one of several hourly rates depending on the category of work they're doing. Cat A is the highest rate, (ED) and the only cat requiring up to 60 hrs/week. I'd like to know how many 60hr weeks have been "required", (as opposed to requested) recently, but it's certainly fuck all.

And let's be clear about this: junior doc's are still training. Never mind the mere tradies, I don't know of any profession at all that pays what amounts to an apprentice $70 to $100k while still covering over $1m in training subsidies. Each. And that's not including their several weeks per year all expense paid sabbatical leave, their free lunches etc etc etc etc etc.

NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason.

Larceny. Theft. Extortion is usually classed as theft, and I can't but see that demanding moneys under threat of physical duress is anything but.

Much to do with medical provisions in this country is complicated... I'd suggest that too many administrative types are involved with making decisions that really should be made in consultation with clinicians.

I would, also, suggest that the amount of "required" time in an ED varies across the country...

I would hope that ALL doctors, whether junior or senior, continue to train until the day they retire completely. Calling a junior doctor an apprentice is to draw a long bow, a better word would be intern. No issues with sabbatical leave and as for "free lunches"... really?

As for "NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason" - you have evidence to support this statement?

[Old Steve]

I'd just like to go to a Doctor who had been so well trained that he no longer needed to practice!

[Ocean1]

Much to do with medical provisions in this country is complicated... I'd suggest that too many administrative types are involved with making decisions that really should be made in consultation with clinicians.

I would, also, suggest that the amount of "required" time in an ED varies across the country...

I would hope that ALL doctors, whether junior or senior, continue to train until the day they retire completely. Calling a junior doctor an apprentice is to draw a long bow, a better word would be intern. No issues with sabbatical leave and as for "free lunches"... really?

As for "NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason" - you have evidence to support this statement?

Fuck off, it's hard enough to keep their fingers out of the till as it is. Oh, and managing medical staff is carried out, (strangely enough) by professional managers, not "administrative types".

It does. But outside of extraordinary circumstances, (like half of the local RD's demanding annual leave simultaneously) it's managed within agreed limits.

They may be interns, that doesn't change the fact that they're still under supervision and still training, apprentice is an accurate description for people in that situation. Or is the trades reference derogatory? And as for free lunches: absolutely, it's in the RDA's MECA, not negotiable apparently. Nor is any restrictions on the quantity or quality of such.

It's the considered opinion of most of the off-shore trained doctors I've ever discussed it with over a beer. How many does it take to constitute "evidence"? There's been a few.

[TheTengTheory]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

[nzspokes]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

Thanks for the post. Interesting.

[Ruahine]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

Excellent summation, I hadn't followed all the negotiations and learnt a bit reading that.

I would propose that the strike is potentially undermining efforts to secure more funding to help end single crewing.

[Akzle]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

not that you let it get to you or amything eh.