Rodeos

[Katman]

So is it time to ban rodeos or is Nathan Guy correct in believing they're a part of New Zealand's culture?

[onearmedbandit]

So is it time to ban rodeos or is Nathan Guy correct in believing they're a part of New Zealand's culture?

Ban them in my humble opinion.

[Edit]

I'll expand on that. Any person who gets enjoyment or feels excited at seeing an animal tormented, frightened and abused is no friend of mine.

[neels]

Given the quote below from "The New Zealand Rodeo Cowboys Association" below, I'm not seeing much connection with New Zealand culture.


SADDLE BRONC
The event that started rodeo, it originated from the necessary job of breaking in and training horses to be used in ranches, in the days of the Wild West.

I would have thought that dog trialing or tackling deer from a helicopter would be more appropriate, or maybe taking a week to herd 5000 sheep down a high country valley. I don't see roping calves and dragging them off their feet by their necks as particularly necessary, or poking animals with cattle prods because they're not animated enough to put on a good show, cruelty to animals for the entertainment of humans seems a bit archaic in the modern world really.

[pritch]

I've never been to one but living on the rural rump I'm aware they have them near here. It could be said that the events are based on skills required on farms but I think these days machinery has almost completely replaced horses so any real relevance is long gone.

When the synthetic fuel plant was being built (sadly long since cut up for scrap) a new Safety Officer arrived from the USA. The following Monday he turned up to work with his arm in a sling. In answer to my question he told me he'd been injured in the bull riding event at the local rodeo. I wouldn't have been the only one who wondered if this was not incongruous.

[Katman]

I'm of the opinion that anyone who gains enjoyment from watching the antics of a terrified animal is a blight of humanity.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm of the opinion that anyone who gains enjoyment from watching the antics of a terrified animal is a blight of humanity.

What is your take on Nature documentaries then?

[Katman]

What is your take on Nature documentaries then?

If you're asking about animals being killed by other animals higher up in the food chain then my answer would be, I don't get any enjoyment from watching it but I do understand how Nature works.

[TheDemonLord]

If you're asking about animals being killed by other animals higher up in the food chain then my answer would be, I don't get any enjoyment from watching it but I do understand how Nature works.

Not quite - I'm thinking more along the lines of capture/release of animals as part of a Documentary. Granted there are degrees within this from Sir David Attenborough letting something crawl on him (relatively benign) - to people dragging snakes out of burrows by their tails etc. or crocodile wrestling (which comes close to what you describe).

[Katman]

Not quite - I'm thinking more along the lines of capture/release of animals as part of a Documentary. Granted there are degrees within this from Sir David Attenborough letting something crawl on him (relatively benign) - to people dragging snakes out of burrows by their tails etc. or crocodile wrestling (which comes close to what you describe).

Why should an animal need to be captured and released as part of a documentary?

[Woodman]

I'm of the opinion that anyone who gains enjoyment from watching the antics of a terrified animal is a blight of humanity.

Agree completely. Rodeos are gay.

[AllanB]

Been to a couple over the years.

Last about three years back down south. Mostly a entertaining day with no visible intent to injure. Having said that the animals had been raised to buck and jump so who knows what goes on behind farm gates to them.

One horse had clearly had enough - promptly dumped the rider, crashed through the fencing and tore around the panicked crowd until it literally headed for the hills.

Interesting question, and I'd really need to do more research to consider a outright ban.



In the meantime can we concentrate on getting rid of those skinheads who think they look tough dragging around their bulldogs and the likes. Leave the dogs - just get rid of the owners.

[TheDemonLord]

Why should an animal need to be captured and released as part of a documentary?

Makes for exciting and compelling viewing? Some animals are elusive? I don't know - I'm not a documentary maker - suffice to say though, it happens.

Also - what is your thoughts on capture and release for scientific purposes?

[Katman]

Interesting question, and I'd really need to do more research to consider a outright ban.

At the risk of being accused of youtubing, I'll just say that there's certainly no shortage of videos out there to help you with your research.

[Katman]

Also - what is your thoughts on capture and release for scientific purposes?

Do you understand the difference being 'scientific purposes' and 'entertainment'?

[TheDemonLord]

Do you understand the difference being 'scientific purposes' and 'entertainment'?

Yes.

Do you understand why I asked the question?




Also - Already with the Red Rep - you remember you were having a whinge and a cry about how persecuted you were, and how it was everyone else that picks on you....... You may want to think about that....

[Katman]

Do you understand why I asked the question?

The thread's about rodeos - in case you missed it.

[TheDemonLord]

The thread's about rodeos - in case you missed it.

I didn't

but there you go again.

[Katman]

I didn't

but there you go again.

Dude, you're so transparent.

You can't think of an angle to argue against me about rodeos so you're going looking for an alternative avenue that you can steer the thread down.

[TheDemonLord]

Dude, you're so transparent.

You can't think of an angle to argue against me about rodeos so you're going looking for an alternative avenue that you can steer the thread down.

No, that is your paranoia talking - how about you answer the question?

[Katman]

- how about you answer the question?

If the capture and release of the animal is done with minimal negative impact on the animal's well-being (and if it's for genuine scientific purposes) I have no problem with it.

Satisfied?

[trufflebutter]

The thread has gone all bitch slap quicker than one of the Church Brothers could ever hog tie a raging bull.

[Katman]

The thread has gone all bitch slap quicker than one of the Church Brothers could ever hog tie a ragging bull.

I'm sure that's what you're hoping for.

[TheDemonLord]

If the capture and release of the animal is done with minimal negative impact on the animal's well-being (and if it's for genuine scientific purposes) I have no problem with it.

Satisfied?

Holy Shit! an actual answer!

So - Lets take that position (I'm putting the scientific part to the side for a moment) - minimal negative impact on the animal (with some caveats) is acceptable.

I don't have an official position on Rodeos - never been to one or worked in one, but I am extremely wary of banning something other people enjoy, lest that same line of reasoning be turned on something I enjoy.

I think there is a lot of merit in the principle that it is cruel and unnecessary, when done purely for entertainment. The question then becomes - what is the level of Cruelty and what is the negative impact?

I then ask - what is your views on Farming? in specifically, the raising of Animals to be killed? If I wished to be contrary for the sake of it - I would argue that a little agitation for 10-15 minutes (or however long a Rodeo session lasts) is preferable to death - especially since it is possible to live reasonably healthy on a vegetarian diet.

The point of the science question was to determine whether for you, it was an absolute principle: "No, there is no justification for harming an animal at all" or whether it was a principle that sat upon a continuum (at one end being acceptable but minimal 'cruelty' for a greater good, and at the other being unacceptable cruelty for not positive outcome)

The final question is perhaps this - assume an Ideal rodeo, where the animals are well looked after fed/watered/treated etc. and for a period of time once a week (or month or...) are agitated for a short period of time, with no serious long term issues (so no cattle prods, branding etc.). Would you be able to tolerate that?

I don't think that I personally would be able to support a Rodeo, even in it's ideal state, I also don't think I could justify banning it either.

This is not to say that there are probably scumbag operators in the same manner that there are scumbag farmers.

[Katman]

I then ask - what is your views on Farming? in specifically, the raising of Animals to be killed? If I wished to be contrary for the sake of it - I would argue that a little agitation for 10-15 minutes (or however long a Rodeo session lasts) is preferable to death - especially since it is possible to live reasonably healthy on a vegetarian diet.

I've hand raised animals that have ended up in my freezer.

Their death was as humane as possible and I gave them my own little moment of thanks every time I sat down to a meal of them.

[jasonu]

Dude, you're so transparent.

You can't think of an angle to argue against me about rodeos so you're going looking for an alternative avenue that you can steer the thread down.

Look out, it's a trap!!!!!

[jasonu]

I'm sure that's what you're hoping for.

It's what I expected.

[AllanB]

At the risk of being accused of youtubing, I'll just say that there's certainly no shortage of videos out there to help you with your research.

Fair comment KMan but there are also untold videos of dickheads on Motorcycles being, well, dickheads (am I wrong thinking Americans have a majority here...maybe they just film more).

I don't want motorcycles banned.

I notice the modern way is to find offense with something (often justified) then propose to ban it outright.

However is there a middle ground for this sport/entertainment/lifestyle that is not cruel to animals?

Like I say, I'd need to dive in a bit deeper to advocate a total ban.


Side note - I went to a Bull fight in Spain some decades ago - now that was rather graphic. The stadium was absolutely packed with what I'd estimate tens of thousands of cheering fans. Once was enough thanks.

Mind you the 'real fucky fucky' show I went to in Amsterdam had parallels to the bull fight, by the look on her face the actress was not particularly interested in being poked by the two men wielding large spear-like objects.

[TheDemonLord]

I've hand raised animals that have ended up in my freezer.

Their death was as humane as possible and I gave them my own little moment of thanks every time I sat down to a meal of them.

But it was still death? And a Death that was ultimately for a measure of your enjoyment?

Given the choice - would you choose to be executed by someone or to live a life where once a week you had to wrestle someone, but the rest of the week you were well looked after?

These are the reasons why I am extremely wary of calling for any form of Ban.

That all said, there is probably some room for either a code of conduct or set of standards to define what is acceptable and what isn't, so ensure that Scumbags don't get away with scumbaggery.

[Katman]

However is there a middle ground for this sport/entertainment/lifestyle that is not cruel to animals?

Possibly, but I suspect it would be a middle ground that would hold no interest for the people who participate in rodeos.

[Katman]

Given the choice - would you choose to be executed by someone or to live a life where once a week you had to wrestle someone, but the rest of the week you were well looked after?

Don't kid yourself.

Once the animal's bucking days are over, it's usually death anyway.

[Katman]

That all said, there is probably some room for either a code of conduct or set of standards to define what is acceptable and what isn't, so ensure that Scumbags don't get away with scumbaggery.

There is - and the Rodeo organisers routinely ignore them.

As does the MPI.

[TheDemonLord]

Possibly, but I suspect it would be a middle ground that would hold no interest for the people to participate in rodeos.

Depends where it is - I think most people (both Industry people and Punters) would want their hobby/industry to be viewed as humane.

I'm reminded of a Battery Farm protest that happened down south ages ago - they interviewed one of the protesters and the first words out of their mouth was 'Well, I'm Vegan so' - which immediately burned any sort of possibility of a Middle ground that appeased the protestors and was acceptable to the business.


I should note - not a particular fan of Battery farming.

[AllanB]

Possibly, but I suspect it would be a middle ground that would hold no interest for the people to participate in rodeos.

Actually you have most likely hit the nail on the head right there.

[TheDemonLord]

There is - and the Rodeo organisers routinely ignore them.

As does the MPI.

Is that because the MPI doesn't have legal clout to deal with it or the legislation is flimsy?

[Katman]

Is that because the MPI doesn't have legal clout to deal with it or the legislation is flimsy?

It's because the MPI is headed by Nathan Guy - who is a staunch supporter of rodeos.

[TheDemonLord]

Don't kid yourself.

Once the animal's bucking days are over, it's usually death anyway.

Tis a good point to be sure - I would counter that it doesn't HAVE to end in Death - there are options (stud farming, petting zoos/farms, no-kill organizations etc.) - it would seem to me that this could be fixed by having a clear and defined guidelines (that are enforced) for what can be done after the Animal cannot perform, and explicitly stating that the Glue factory is not an option.

[Katman]

Thankfully a number of major sponsers of the New Zealand rodeo circuit have withdrawn their support in light of the growing public outrage.

[Katman]

Tis a good point to be sure - I would counter that it doesn't HAVE to end in Death - there are options (stud farming, petting zoos/farms, no-kill organizations etc.) - it would seem to me that this could be fixed by having a clear and defined guidelines (that are enforced) for what can be done after the Animal cannot perform, and explicitly stating that the Glue factory is not an option.

They've been trying to get the Greyhound racing industry to comply with that expectation for years.

Dogs past their use-by date are still turning up in offal pits.

[husaberg]

I've never been to one but living on the rural rump I'm aware they have them near here. It could be said that the events are based on skills required on farms but I think these days machinery has almost completely replaced horses so any real relevance is long gone.

When the synthetic fuel plant was being built (sadly long since cut up for scrap) a new Safety Officer arrived from the USA. The following Monday he turned up to work with his arm in a sling. In answer to my question he told me he'd been injured in the bull riding event at the local rodeo. I wouldn't have been the only one who wondered if this was not incongruous.

There is still plenty of people who use horses for stock work, especially with run cattle, but they are getting fewer and fewer, but it still has its place.
While not to do with your post but always interests me what urban dwellers with no experience of large animal husbandry view as being animal cruelty.
For instance European and North Americans often view our animals being keep outside as being inhumane when large animals are in their natural environment outside.

[Voltaire]

At the risk of being accused of youtubing, I'll just say that there's certainly no shortage of videos out there to help you with your research.

Your two favourites rolled into one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0ybAGe0CCI

[trufflebutter]

It's what I expected.

The irony of this thread is that the OP seems to enjoy flogging a dead horse...:corn:

[tigertim20]

Bit hard to really say without being involved with both the behind the scenes stuff, and seeing a rodeo or two in person.
I have experienced neither.

The problem with youtube / internet docos etc, is that typically, and despite insistence to the contrary, most of them have only been created because someone is predisposed to a particular viewpoint, and is passionate enough about it to go and creatively edit some footage to 'prove' their point.
i.e. those videos show plenty of the tiny and brief snapshots of panic, but little, or no footage of those animals spending 99% of their time grazing and sleeping and enjoying the benefits of veterinary intervention (when required) to maintain health - most of those animals are treated in that respect like athletes, their health is important. Or so I am told by a woman I train with who breeds horses and goes to rodeos from time to time.

Would be easy to ban motorcycles based on a few videos selected from the youtube files of stupidity, and easy to ban MMA, because of a couple of graphic video clips, carefully selected to invoke and emotional response. fortunately in both if these instances, common sense prevails, and the aforementioned activities are allowed to continue.

I am not a fan of causing any kind of torment purely for the sake of entertainment, so perhaps its more a question of whether some kind of regulation would be a satisfactory solution?

Of course, you have a whole new can of worms there, deciding what factors to consider, and where to apply a limit etc.

[Katman]

Would be easy to ban motorcycles based on a few videos selected from the youtube files of stupidity, and easy to ban MMA, because of a couple of graphic video clips, carefully selected to invoke and emotional response.

Of course the big difference there is that all the participants involved in motorcycling and MMA do so of their own free will.

[bogan]

Arguably its successor, the Colorado is a better all-around ute. And not even up for discussion, its predecessor, the kingswood, was superior also.

So yes, rodeos should be stopped; and either replaced with suprior technology (robotic bulls) or have superior old school rides instead (maybe raptors?).

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.5040985.3258/flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg

[Madness]

... a ragging bull.

There's no good time of the month for that kind of malarkey.

[Katman]

I am not a fan of causing any kind of torment purely for the sake of entertainment, so perhaps its more a question of whether some kind of regulation would be a satisfactory solution?

Of course, you have a whole new can of worms there, deciding what factors to consider, and where to apply a limit etc.

As I've already pointed out, there are already regulations that are routinely being ignored.

Electric prods are not to be used on calves but when Marty Deans (President of the Rodeo Cowboys Association) was shown video footage during a radio interview of exactly that happening, his response was merely "well I don't believe he actually used the prod - he just had it in his hand and moved it near the animal".

[Katman]

And further to the question earlier in the thread, "which is preferable, 10 minutes of stress and discomfort, or death?" the reality for the calves used in rodeos is that their next stop is usually the meat works.

So they get to be tormented before they're killed.

[Akzle]

i'm all for rodeos.


if the bovine are replaced with bankers, politicians, other jews and niggers.

[husaberg]

As I've already pointed out, there are already regulations that are routinely being ignored.

Electric prods are not to be used on calves but when Marty Deans (President of the Rodeo Cowboys Association) was shown video footage during a radio interview of exactly that happening, his response was merely "well I don't believe he actually used the prod - he just had it in his hand and moved it near the animal".


I think you need to get a few details clear.
There is no regulations (as far as i am aware) regarding the use of electric prods on calves (other than simple animal cruelty covered by other acts)
The use of cattle prods on calves at rodeos are governed by the NZ rodeo code of conduct that they created. That Bans the use of prods "to intentionally agitate cattle".
Electric cattle products are not harmful to cattle they are a physiological effect ie not pleasant. But not harmfull either.
They are powered by a couple of D batteries ie they have far less current and shock level then an normal electric fence. Far less painful and damaging than a whip used on horses.

Cattle prods are a tool used to load cattle onto trucks whether destined for slaughter or to grazing or for sale to another farm all around the world.
I would rather like to see you load a unit of cattle without one, in under 4 hours. without vast amounts of help or quite a few dogs.



And further to the question earlier in the thread, "which is preferable, 10 minutes of stress and discomfort, or death?" the reality for the calves used in rodeos is that their next stop is usually the meat works.

So they get to be tormented before they're killed.
Also your naivety in regards to the calves being sent to slaughter immediately after the rodeo is apparent as they are clearly beef cattle not destined to slaughter for at least another 15 months.
There is actuallly no market or processing schedule for cattle that size and age in NZ
While i believe your actual intentions may be good in this circumstances, your overall lack of knowledge is making the points you wish to make, look like ill conceived rantings.

[Katman]

I think you need to get a few details clear.
There is no regulations (as far as i am aware) regarding the use of electric prods on calves (other than simple animal cruelty covered by other acts)
The use of cattle prods on calves at rodeos are governed by the NZ rodeo code of conduct that they created.

Go educate yourself.

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/4810

[husaberg]

Go educate yourself.

https://www.mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/4810

You might want to read my post again.
Code of Welfare

[Katman]

You might want to read my post again.
Code of Welfare

It's a Code of Welfare issued by the Ministry for Primary Industries that clearly states.....


(i) Electric prodders must not be used by inexperienced handlers or used on animals other than adult
cattle.

[husaberg]

It's a Code of Welfare issued by the Ministry for Primary Industries that clearly states.....

MPi issue and administer the codes, who do you think created the code?
I will give you a hint codes are created by the industry that they serve, they are then submitted for feedbck and vetted, then opened for submission.
I should have known that you are impossible to have a reasonable discussion as you are rather lacking in intelligence and rather high in uncontrolled emotion.

Electric prodders are only used when necessary, and then only for less than one second at a time, on chute stalled stock  Electric prodders are not used on animals performing in the arena  Electric prods are of minimum amperage, powered only by battery or dynamo and deliver a single charge per application

Feel free to ingnore my whole post as its rather apparent you are just trolling.
Good day to you sir.:weird:

[Katman]

MPi issue and administer the codes, who do you think created the code?

Go read it and you might just find out.

[Akzle]

Go educate yourself.

810[/url]

dont hold your breath though ayye

[Katman]

Also your naivety in regards to the calves being sent to slaughter immediately after the rodeo is apparent as they are clearly beef cattle not destined to slaughter for at least another 15 months.
There is actuallly no market or processing schedule for cattle that size and age in NZ


Do you know what veal is?

[husaberg]

Do you know what veal is?

Do the calves used in the rodeo look like 4 day old dairy calves to you?:clap:
I used suggest you try and ban cheese as that where the renet comes from as well.

[Katman]

Feel free to ingnore my whole post as its rather apparent you are just trolling.


I'm happy to ignore your whole post as you clearly don't know what the fuck you're on about.

[Katman]

Do the calves used in the rodeo look like 4 day old dairy calves to you?:clap:
I used suggest you try and ban cheese as that where the renet comes from as well.

Bobby calves aren't the only source of veal.

Veal is anything younger than 12 months.

[husaberg]

Bobby calves aren't the only source of veal.

Veal is anything younger than 12 months.

Find a beef schedule in nz that covers it then.
better still ring up a meat works and ask them how much of a bill they would send you fees to kill a 100KG-150kg liveweight animal
As i are feeling a bit sorry for you i will give you a hint.
The calves used in rodeo are about 100KG-150 liveweight. an animal that size would be lucky to dress out at one third of that.
near the end of the season they are a little larger but not much.
Contrary to your idea of what happens after a rodeo the calves are returned to the people that donated them, where they are likely loaded and unloaded with cattle prods where they grave contently for another 12-15 months behind an electric fence.
When they reach an economic killing weight nomally 280-320kg dead weight or 560-640kg liveweight are then loaded into a cattle truck with electric prodder taking to a freezing unloaded again with electric prodders works and loaded up the killing chute with electric prodders and stuned with an electric shock.
Best you stick to cats and dogs katman its clearly too traumatic for you to accept reality.

[nzspokes]

Do you know what veal is?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__6P2VK-Qao

[nzspokes]

Arguably its successor, the Colorado is a better all-around ute. And not even up for discussion, its predecessor, the kingswood, was superior also.

So yes, rodeos should be stopped; and either replaced with suprior technology (robotic bulls) or have superior old school rides instead (maybe raptors?).

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.5040985.3258/flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg

That would make an epic track bike hauler.

[jasonu]

Do you know what veal is?

Do you know what veal substitute is?

[Katman]

And in case anyone's making the same mistake as berkboy in thinking that I mean the calves literally go directly from the rodeo to the meat works, I'm speaking in a rather more general sense in that the meat works are their ultimate destination - as opposed to living out their lives frolicking in clover and sunshine.

Exactly how soon after their rodeo performance, is up for debate.

[Katman]

And in that respect, I'm sure there's an unspoken belief among many rodeo participants of 'who cares if a few break their necks - they're headed for slaughter anyway'.

(And I'm also sure that this belief is used by some as an unspoken justification for the gross mistreatment of a great many Bobby calves).

[Zedder]

And in that respect, I'm sure there's an unspoken belief among many rodeo participants of 'who cares if a few break their necks - they're headed for slaughter anyway'.

(And I'm also sure that this belief is used as an unspoken justification for the gross mistreatment of a great many Bobby calves).


I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Some humans have a huge capacity for justifying their actions over mistreatment of children and adults so animals would be the least of their worries.

[pritch]

i I would counter that it doesn't HAVE to end in Death - there are options (stud farming, petting zoos/farms, no-kill organizations etc.)

I have no ideaa how the "bucking broncos" are motivated to perform, but it's possible that they might not be eminently suited to petting zoos, pony clubs, or Riding For The Disabled?

[TheDemonLord]

I have no ideaa how the "bucking broncos" are motivated to perform, but it's possible that they might not be eminently suited to petting zoos, pony clubs, or Riding For The Disabled?

Possibly - although the point was when they can no longer perform - so presumably they mellow out with age?

[PrincessBandit]

Possibly - although the point was when they can no longer perform - so presumably they mellow out with age?

I would doubt that very much if you compare the amount of work that goes into rehabilitating many abused animals. That is, if they end up with any human contact afterwards not directly followed by them being slaughtered.
Many of these animals would understandably have problems associating humans with anything other than pain or fear.

[TheDemonLord]

I would doubt that very much if you compare the amount of work that goes into rehabilitating many abused animals. That is, if they end up with any human contact afterwards not directly followed by them being slaughtered.
Many of these animals would understandably have problems associating humans with anything other than pain or fear.

But that's it - I don't know if the Animals are abused - I mean sure - you see a Bucking Bronco and you assume abuse - do you see how the animal is treated for the rest of the week? Pritch said (and I agree) that we don't know how the Animals are persuaded to perform.

Husaberg also made a very good point that often these Bans are instigated by people who little to no farming/big animal experience. I would however point out, that an outside perspective is beneficial as sometimes a sort of professional echo chamber can form.

[Katman]

Husaberg also made a very good point that often these Bans are instigated by people who little to no farming/big animal experience.

Would that include the likes of the SPCA and the Humane Society?

[Zedder]

But that's it - I don't know if the Animals are abused - I mean sure - you see a Bucking Bronco and you assume abuse - do you see how the animal is treated for the rest of the week? Pritch said (and I agree) that we don't know how the Animals are persuaded to perform.

Husaberg also made a very good point that often these Bans are instigated by people who little to no farming/big animal experience. I would however point out, that an outside perspective is beneficial as sometimes a sort of professional echo chamber can form.


Most brucking broncos are bred and raised expressly for rodeo use, just like the bulls that "fight" in Spain. They are innately aggressive and encouraged to be that way.

[Laava]

Yay another Katman provocation thread for him to assert his superiority. How much more tedious can this thread get?

[Zedder]

Yay another Katman provocation thread for him to assert his superiority. How much more tedious can this thread get?


Don't know about Katman, but it's particularly relevant to me because I've recently come back from Canada and been around a major rodeo event with people who've both watched and taken part.

It was an education. I found it disturbing and probably pissed my Canadian friends off by saying so.

[PrincessBandit]

Yay another Katman provocation thread for him to assert his superiority. How much more tedious can this thread get?

Only if you choose to view it that way.

[trufflebutter]

Yay another Katman provocation thread for him to assert his superiority. How much more tedious can this thread get?

You'll have to wait until his next post....:corn: He seems as boring as bat shit but I do enjoy reading the inevitable responses of his dreary subjects.

[Akzle]

Don't know about Katman, but it's particularly relevant to me because I've recently come back from Canada and been around a major rodeo event with people who've both watched and taken part.

It was an education. I found it disturbing and probably pissed my Canadian friends off by saying so.


Only if you choose to view it that way.

oh, wouldn't pay heed to that old gay cunt. he just feels the need to say something so he can pretend to be relevant.

[Luckylegs]

Yay another Katman provocation thread for him to assert his superiority. How much more tedious can this thread get?

Are you serious? KM and TDL actually strung a coherant conversation/argument for a few posts...

Love your work guys

[Laava]

You'll have to wait until his next post....:corn: He seems as boring as bat shit but I do enjoy reading the inevitable responses of his dreary subjects.


Some more of my boring lies about what a legend I am.

You called it TB!

[husaberg]

And in case anyone's making the same mistake as berkboy in thinking that I mean the calves literally go directly from the rodeo to the meat works, I'm speaking in a rather more general sense in that the meat works are their ultimate destination - as opposed to living out their lives frolicking in clover and sunshine.
Exactly how soon after their rodeo performance, is up for debate.


And further to the question earlier in the thread, "which is preferable, 10 minutes of stress and discomfort, or death?" the reality for the calves used in rodeos is that their next stop is usually the meat works.

So they get to be tormented before they're killed.
So by next stop you actually meant 12-15 months later, of course you did:msn-wink:
Clearly its painfully obvious, you were actually talking about the animals being slaughtered immediately after,ie at their next stop ie er......like 12-15 months later later:crazy:............


Husaberg also made a very good point that often these Bans are instigated by people who little to no farming/big animal experience. .

Yes generally the SPCA whilst being well meaning are generally enthusiastic volunteers have little understanding of commercial large animal husbandry.
That is why the commercial farmng large animal role is handled by MAF enforcement.
Don't get me wrong the SPCA does a great job, but commercial farming is not their area of expertise, I note, they (the SPCA)also help MAF enforcement as does the Vet association and Biosecurity NZ.
Its is of course fine for them to give imput into regulations, as is for anyone else as well, but that has to be balanced with both experience and commercial reality.

Actually it raises a interesting point, tail docking regulations for dogs seems to lag behind cattle, i can see little benefit in how people dock dogs tails ,other than for so old fashioned breed aesthetic.
Why is there not loud noises for this to be banned?
Cattle

The Animal Welfare (Painful Husbandry Procedures) Code of Welfare 2005 limits tail shortening in cattle to the last two or three vertebrae of the tail. The NZVA policy on bovine tail shortening of cattle is in line with its policy (3b) that opposes physical alterations to the natural state of animals unless they are demonstrably necessary for the welfare of the animals concerned.
The practice of docking the tails of dairy cows was originally adopted to reduce contamination of both milking staff and cow udders. However, subsequent studies (Matthews et al 1995) found that leptospirosis and mastitis levels were no different in docked and undocked cows. The 2005 code has allowed switch removal “to improve comfort for milking personnel and enhance milking efficiency”, but recommends that alternative solutions are tried first. The NZVA is of the opinion that non-surgical alternatives are available in the form of regular cleaning and trimming of the hair in those few cows where this is a problem, especially now that automated tail trimmers are available.


Dogs

NZ Legalislation for Canine Docking
New Zealand Animal Welfare Act 1999
Animal Welfare (Dogs) Code of Welfare 2010

7.11.3 Tail docking

Voluntary tail docking, as opposed to tail docking performed to manage existing injury or disease, is performed in order to ensure that dogs meet breed standards, or because it is believed that it prevents damage from occurring to the tails of working dogs in particular situations, or to reduce soiling around the anus and tail. Tail docking of dogs is restricted or prohibited in several countries, including England, Wales, Scotland, Germany, Australia, Israel, Finland, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway.

Tails may be docked surgically by a veterinarian for therapeutic reasons, or by means of an elastic ligature or band that constricts blood supply (see Appendix II: Interpretation and definitions ‘tail band (tail banding)’ and ‘tail docking’) in accordance with the minimum standard below.

Tail docking is a painful procedure when performed on puppies older than four days of age. The method of removal may also influence the pain experienced. Veterinarians can provide advice on whether tail docking is needed for particular dogs.

[Laava]

Don't know about Katman, but it's particularly relevant to me because I've recently come back from Canada and been around a major rodeo event with people who've both watched and taken part.

It was an education. I found it disturbing and probably pissed my Canadian friends off by saying so.

Yet despite his endless threads about what is wrong with the world and anyone who disagrees with him, what does he actually do about it?

[Katman]

Yet despite his endless threads about what is wrong with the world and anyone who disagrees with him, what does he actually do about it?

Obviously one of the things I'm trying to do is prompt people to take a closer look at issues that I believe are important.

If you couldn't care less about an issue that I raise than I don't quite understand why you would even bother to come into the thread.

(Unless of course, you're just fixated on me).

[Katman]

NZ Veterinary Association's official statement on rodeos. (http://nzva.site-ym.com/?page=policyrodeo)

[Grumph]

Actually it raises a interesting point, tail docking regulations for dogs seems to lag behind cattle, i can see little benefit in how people dock dogs tails ,other than for so old fashioned breed aesthetic.
Why is there not loud noises for this to be banned?

My understanding (as a registered NZKC breeder) is that you will now find it very hard indeed to find a vet prepared to do tail docking. Sort of a de facto ban done quietly. Of course in the less civilised regions...

Rodeo should be modernised and made relevant - everything that was done on a horse is now done off a quad.
So bring them in and work off them instead of horses.
The bucking rides ? Quads with bent axles....

[Katman]

Prohibitions and restrictions on rodeo around the world. (https://www.sharkonline.org/index.php/animal-cruelty/rodeo-cruelty/755-locations-with-prohibitions-or-restrictions-on-rodeos-or-rodeo-events)

[husaberg]

My understanding (as a registered NZKC breeder) is that you will now find it very hard indeed to find a vet prepared to do tail docking. Sort of a de facto ban done quietly. Of course in the less civilised regions...

Rodeo should be modernised and made relevant - everything that was done on a horse is now done off a quad.
So bring them in and work off them instead of horses.
The bucking rides ? Quads with bent axles....

i understand the breed clubs get arround this by banding.

on the modern rodeo, Oh yes, hell yes.
but can we also use helicopters another great mustering tool.

[Laava]

Obviously one of the things I'm trying to do is prompt people to take a closer look at issues that I believe are important.

If you couldn't care less about an issue that I raise than I don't quite understand why you would even bother to come into the thread.

(Unless of course, you're just fixated on me).

Definately not fixated on you dude, that is what you have axehole for! I happen to agree with you re the bullshit treatment that happens at rodeos etc but what is the point starting a thread on a motorcycle forum that will degenerate into the usual back and forth crap a la, 911 thread etc? Are you trying to be just like Edbear?

[Akzle]

...

Rodeo should be modernised and made relevant - everything that was done on a horse is now done off a quad.
So bring them in and work off them instead of horses.
The bucking rides ? Quads with bent axles....

rbgiafp .

[Akzle]

Are you serious? KM and TDL actually strung a coherant conversation/argument for a few posts...

Love your work guys

rbgiafp

your work. :killingme

[madbikeboy]

That would make an epic track bike hauler.

Friends, don't let friends, drive holdens.

[Katman]

I happen to agree with you re the bullshit treatment that happens at rodeos etc but what is the point starting a thread on a motorcycle forum that will degenerate into the usual back and forth crap

Then don't turn it into one.

[Zedder]

Rodeo should be modernised and made relevant - everything that was done on a horse is now done off a quad.
So bring them in and work off them instead of horses.
The bucking rides ? Quads with bent axles....


Yep, like it.

[Zedder]

but can we also use helicopters another great mustering tool.


As long as there's a lot more done about the mistreatment of those poor Robinson choppers...

[bogan]

Friends, don't let friends, drive holdens.

Kingswoods get a pass. It's like how it's ok to have an inline 4 if it's in a superbike or greater.

[russd7]

Rodeo should be modernised and made relevant - everything that was done on a horse is now done off a quad.
So bring them in and work off them instead of horses.
The bucking rides ? Quads with bent axles....
hell yeah, i would be in to that, bent axles don't slow ya down eff all, broken ones on the other hand are a different kettle of fish.

bulldogging a bull to get the fucker away from the youngstock is a hell of a lot of fun, especially when its wet and on a hill side and the fucker sends ya sideways. gets the dander up it does

[MarkW]

This is an interesting topic.
I’m an ex Auckland person [and an accountant by trade] who moved to a very rural location in the Far North just over 6 years ago. I was asked by my new neighbour if I could act as auditor for the local rodeo club as they needed one. I agreed to do this and have now attended a number of rodeo events plus the organising committee’s meetings for about 5 years.
The local rodeo club runs two events a year – one is part of the National Championship and one is a fund raising local event to help cover the financial losses that the National event makes.

So looking at the National event first:

Firstly – I can only speak about what I have seen for myself at the events that I have attended.

MPI and NZRCA both have rules that apply to animal welfare and the club is required to have an animal welfare person and a vet at the event at all times.

The Open grade bucking bulls and bronco’s are all supplied [at a pretty high cost] for the event – the animals are all trained over reasonably long periods of time, are trucked to the event and pastured. The animals are ALL Vet checked before being taken into the chutes and readied for the competition. The animals that I have seen at this stage are all very docile. But when the cowboy is on the animal and the gates open all hell breaks loose. A successful ride is 8 seconds long. If the cowboy doesn’t get to 8 seconds the ride doesn’t count. Most don’t last 8 seconds. Many times I have watched the cowboy get thrown and been bemused by the fact that the horse or bull immediately stops bucking and heads for the exit chute which is where their dinner is. Things do sometimes go wrong and that is pretty obvious – at that point the safety guys inside the arena [on foot and on horseback as appropriate] try and safeguard the rider first and the animal second.

The calves that are part of the various roping events are all specified as to size and weight with minimum and maximums. These specifications are all part of the rules of competition.

At my local rodeo local farmers supply these animals from their own stock. The animals are run through the full process of a rodeo a number of times BEFORE the national event. So they get loaded into the chutes, released and run in as close to a straight line as possible across the arena and then out the exit gate. Animals that don’t want to leave the chute, can’t run in a straight line or won’t head out through the open exit gate easily aren’t used. In most calf roping events 8 out of 10 animals don’t get roped by the cowboy[s] and simply get to run across the arena. And out the exit gate. When the cowboy[s] do get a proper “catch” with their rope the vast majority are a simple throw onto the loose sand of the arena, tied and after the allotted time period has elapsed the animals are released.

Do things go wrong – sometimes but not often. At the events that I have attended so far all of the calves have been returned to the local farmer intact. The animals are all vet checked before the event and afterwards as well.

The barrel racing ladies use their own horses and don’t chase anything. Their events are simply against the clock.

The arena that the local club uses is part of the local A & P Association saleyards so all of the races, pens, chutes etc. are all permanent items and are used every month as part of the normal animal sales processes.

The second event is much lower key – the Club hires a lower grade [which generally means that they are smaller in physical size] of Bucking stock as there are no National riders attending. But the same rules apply to the welfare of the stock. So a vet there all of the time and an animal welfare officer as well.

If the kids are having a go at the bull riding [not necessarily bucking bulls] there are specific weights for both the size of the kids and the size of the animals that they are allowed to ride. So no big kids on small animals and no small kids on big animals.

Again all of the animals used, other than the bucking animals, are all from local farmers and are returned after their day at the rodeo.

Recent rule changes mean that it is no longer legal to stick 10 sheep into the arena with a ribbon tied around their necks, add 20 kids under 10 years of age and the 10 kids that get a ribbon get a bag of lollies. So the Club don’t do that any more.

The emphasis at this event is lower key and there are a heap of non rodeo events.

Will rodeo be “killed off” in the future? Probably. The way that social media works these days means that anything sensational [and the badder the better] is around the world instantly. And there are only about 250,000 country based people left in NZ. And 4,250,000 urban, town and city people so you do the maths. Is rodeo cruel and inhumane? Is the treatment of animals at a rodeo inappropriate? Everyone has different opinions and what you may accept may not be acceptable to me. And vice versa.

In some ways, motorcycling may well face the same sort of problem in the future. Too much bad publicity, too many costs being imposed on the general public from accidents, too many anti-social motorcycle based events, too many police chases and so on. And riding a motorcycle can result in death if things go wrong. Just as death can result at a rodeo.

My motorcycle life has seen me attend, witness or have knowledge of far more deaths and serious injuries than my relatively short time at rodeo has. But then there are more motorcycle riders than there are rodeo cowboys.

[Katman]

My motorcycle life has seen me attend, witness or have knowledge of far more deaths and serious injuries than my relatively short time at rodeo has. But then there are more motorcycle riders than there are rodeo cowboys.

And as I pointed out earlier, motorcyclists partake in motorcycling of their own free will.

[Katman]

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/201830403/rodeo-footage-shows-animals-restrained,-in-distress

[Akzle]

hell yeah, i would be in to that, bent axles don't slow ya down eff all, broken ones on the other hand are a different kettle of fish.

bulldogging a bull to get the fucker away from the youngstock is a hell of a lot of fun, especially when its wet and on a hill side and the fucker sends ya sideways. gets the dander up it does

rbgiafp! dander! what a word!

[flashg]

With over 20 years of mustering in the high country and hill country (early 70's to the mid 90's) I can answer some questions.
I was involved in the Millars flat rodeo for six years as a helper and often as a pick up rider, for the rider to climb onto my quarter horse directly off the bronc if they made the 8 seconds, they buck because they have a bucking strap around their flank, my job was to release the strap (seat belt buckle with leather boot lace tied on it) they are not trained to buck, they are just wild horses, good buckers are kept for the next year and hopeless ones are not. And clearing the arena of horses and bulls etc was part of the job.
The bulls we used were braemar bulls (supplied)and had names the cowboys knew and in some cases feared. The bulls had a bucking rope tied in a special way around their flank ( a good yank would release it)
Scary shit when one of those bulls comes at you and your horse still bucking. Getting kicked by a bronc or bull was a very real danger when trying to release the bucking rope or strap ( And it happened more than once)
Take your hat off for the clowns, for how they protect the bull riders once on the ground.
The horses we used lived in the back blocks of the high country and came in just for the rodeo then released again.
Hope this helps

[Akzle]

Take your hat off for the clowns, for how they protect the bull riders once on the ground.


I may be the only one, but there's a real fucken easy way to not find yourself in that situation. see if you can spot it...

[aprilia_RS250]

And as I pointed out earlier, motorcyclists partake in motorcycling of their own free will.

You talk a heinous amount of BULLshit :killingme:killingme:killingme:killingme

[Jin]

im not reading this entire thread can someone pls give me a summary?

is scatman an animal loving vegetarian?

[Zedder]

im not reading this entire thread can someone pls give me a summary?

is scatman an animal loving vegetarian?


Four legs good, two legs bad...

[scumdog]

I'm of the opinion that anyone who gains enjoyment from watching the antics of a terrified animal is a blight of humanity.

Meh, your opinion don't count fer nuthin' but glad to be a blight anyway!

[pritch]

i can see little benefit in how people dock dogs tails ,other than for so old fashioned breed aesthetic.
Why is there not loud noises for this to be banned?


When I was briefly involved with the Kennel Club there was talk that some vets were refusing to dock tails for cosmetic purposes.

There are anomalies, English Springer Spaniels have their tails docked. The argument for this is that the tail may get damaged while the dog is hunting in cover.
The springers bred for hunting, funnily enough, have longer tails than the springers bred for show. :sherlock:
Were I to get another dog, (unlikely now) I'd ask the breeder not to remove anything.

[Akzle]

.

There are anomalies, English Springer Spaniels have their tails docked. The argument for this is that the tail may get damaged while the dog is hunting in cover.


some animals use their tails for balance.
if dogs did, they would be fucken squigly.

[oldrider]

When I was briefly involved with the Kennel Club there was talk that some vets were refusing to dock tails for cosmetic purposes.

There are anomalies, English Springer Spaniels have their tails docked. The argument for this is that the tail may get damaged while the dog is hunting in cover.
The springers bred for hunting, funnily enough, have longer tails than the springers bred for show. :sherlock:
Were I to get another dog, (unlikely now) I'd ask the breeder not to remove anything.

Funny enough I suffered the indignity of having my own tail docked when I was just a little baby - must have just been for show because I have never hurt it while out hunting - in bush or clear spaces! - :blip:

[MD]

Husaberg also made a very good point that often these Bans are instigated by people who little to no farming/big animal experience. I would however point out, that an outside perspective is beneficial as sometimes a sort of professional echo chamber can form.

Like most Kiwis I've lived near, around and spent plenty of time on farms. But I'm not a farmer so therefore I can't claim to be an expert on managing big animals. However, if this thread was started after the TV News Rodeo story a week ago then only an idiot could watch the violent treatment shown and not realise it was nothing more than organised animal cruelty.

I went to rodeos when a lad but I can't remember being upset by anything I saw back then. I am upset now though and will gladly sign any petition to ban rodeos. Preferably a petition that also calls for castration of those wankers prodding and roping the animals. So maybe it's a new thing nowadays to hurt the calves more, tosh them head over heels in agony in order to give the audience more thrills and drama?

[swbarnett]

Like most Kiwis I've lived near, around and spent plenty of time on farms. But I'm not a farmer so therefore I can't claim to be an expert on managing big animals. However, if this thread was started after the TV News Rodeo story a week ago then only an idiot could watch the violent treatment shown and not realise it was nothing more than organised animal cruelty.

I went to rodeos when a lad but I can't remember being upset by anything I saw back then. I am upset now though and will gladly sign any petition to ban rodeos. Preferably a petition that also calls for castration of those wankers prodding and roping the animals. So maybe it's a new thing nowadays to hurt the calves more, tosh them head over heels in agony in order to give the audience more thrills and drama?
Be careful how much weight you give the news story. It's very easy to take video of an uncommon practice and blow it out of all proportion just for ratings.

BTW: I have nothing to do with rodeos; I'm just very weary of jumping on a bandwagon because of what may well be selective sensationalism.

[TheDemonLord]

Like most Kiwis I've lived near, around and spent plenty of time on farms. But I'm not a farmer so therefore I can't claim to be an expert on managing big animals. However, if this thread was started after the TV News Rodeo story a week ago then only an idiot could watch the violent treatment shown and not realise it was nothing more than organised animal cruelty.

I went to rodeos when a lad but I can't remember being upset by anything I saw back then. I am upset now though and will gladly sign any petition to ban rodeos. Preferably a petition that also calls for castration of those wankers prodding and roping the animals. So maybe it's a new thing nowadays to hurt the calves more, tosh them head over heels in agony in order to give the audience more thrills and drama?

2 things - firstly this:


Be careful how much weight you give the news story. It's very easy to take video of an uncommon practice and blow it out of all proportion just for ratings.

BTW: I have nothing to do with rodeos; I'm just very weary of jumping on a bandwagon because of what may well be selective sensationalism.

And secondly - this:


I went to rodeos when a lad but I can't remember being upset by anything I saw back then.

Either Rodeos have gotten worse from when you were a Lad or perhaps the majority of Rodeos (then and now) aren't as portrayed in the media piece (because I dare say - even kids can spot animal cruelty).

[Zedder]

Either Rodeos have gotten worse from when you were a Lad or perhaps the majority of Rodeos (then and now) aren't as portrayed in the media piece (because I dare say - even kids can spot animal cruelty).


The info Katman provided (post #85) showed changes to rodeos. Ipso facto, things are different now.

[TheDemonLord]

The info Katman provided (post #85) showed changes to rodeos. Ipso facto, things are different now.

Errr - That showed Which regions had restrictions or prohibitions on Rodeos. Not that the content of the Rodeo had changed.

Whilst you could infer that attitudes towards the content has changed (a la Fox hunting) you have to reconcile this with the statement from MD - that he does not remember seeing anything upsetting at Rodeos as a Child.

[Zedder]

Errr - That showed Which regions had restrictions or prohibitions on Rodeos. Not that the content of the Rodeo had changed.

Whilst you could infer that attitudes towards the content has changed (a la Fox hunting) you have to reconcile this with the statement from MD - that he does not remember seeing anything upsetting at Rodeos as a Child.


Perhaps you need to read it again, examples: Nevada-Prohibits steer roping, State of Ohio-Bans use of flank straps...

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps you need to read it again, examples: Nevada-Prohibits steer roping, State of Ohio-Bans use of flank straps...

So - what you are saying is that Rodeos have gotten more animal Friendly - which means that your objection to my statement makes no sense.

Hence why your reference to Katman's post does not backup the point you were making....

[Zedder]

So - what you are saying is that Rodeos have gotten more animal Friendly - which means that your objection to my statement makes no sense.

Hence why your reference to Katman's post does not backup the point you were making....


Where did I object to your statement?

My initial post just reiterated information that rodeo's have apparently changed, and for the better. You then wrote, wrongly, that Katman's info didn't show rodeo content changing.

I then wrote, in reply to that post, with proof from the info that it had.

[TheDemonLord]

Where did I object to your statement?

My initial post just reiterated information that rodeo's have apparently changed, and for the better. You then wrote, wrongly, that Katman's info didn't show rodeo content changing.

I then wrote, in reply to that post, with proof from the info that it had.

It was in response to my statement that either they had gotten worse - given that context - it seemed you were arguing that they had gotten worse.

[Akzle]

Where did I object to your statement?

My initial post just reiterated information that rodeo's have apparently changed, and for the better. You then wrote, wrongly, that Katman's info didn't show rodeo content changing.

I then wrote, in reply to that post, with proof from the info that it had.

rbgiafp.

arguing with a TDL is like mud-wrestling a pig. ultimately pointless, and the pig enjoys it.

[TheDemonLord]

rbgiafp.

arguing with a TDL is like mud-wrestling a pig. ultimately pointless, and the pig enjoys it.

And you'd know what Farm Animals enjoy aye Akzle....

[Akzle]

And you'd know what Farm Animals enjoy aye Akzle....

oinky oinky